The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM

I hear folk music almost every time I go to a folk club. But that is because I am very selective about which clubs I go to and there are a few that I have only been to once and have no intention of returning.

On the other hand, as a club regular when the big decline happened in the 70s and 80s I don't recognise Jim's description. The big departure seemed to be down to mortgages and children with those left singing the same proportion of folk songs as before. It was later that the Beatles songs and the rest started creeping into the repertiore at some clubs.

The thing that made a lot of clubs unattractive was the application of the values of a singaround to what was advertised as a concert with floor spots. The factors that make a singaround a success anre not the same as those for a guest night or even for an open stage type of singers night.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:30 AM

"every club we attend, we hear folk music"
Meaningless statement if you can't define what "folk song" means - there's been enough argument here to prove beyond a doubt that that's the case and enough of the same to show that that is not even desirable any more
I would never in a million years argue that there aren't successful clubs that call themselves folk (though saying my clubs healthy doesn't get away from the fact that there are only a minute number of them compared to what there were a couple of decades ago
I went to folk clubs to hear a certain type of music (Joe's just given a fair description of what type, but I would exclude unaccompanied as a 'must' - with a few exceptions)
When I stopped hearin what I wanted I stopped going, as did thousands like me
The labels disappeared, the magazines dwindled, the specialist shops closed... - and everybody ran around like blue-arsed flies blaming everything else other than the fact that you were no longer guaranteed hearing a folk song at a folk club
That's as simple as it comes Dave
Dick just touched on another important point - people aren't going to turn up forever to watch people practicing in public from crib-sheets and I-phones
"Ya wanna go to Carnegie Hall lady - ya gotta practice"
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM

I hope not Jim - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, and to express it.

Who are these people who feel uncomfortable singing folk songs. Is it any particular song that gets peoples' backs up. I must say, I've never witnessed much rudeness to anybody.

T was subject to rudeness in traddy clubs in the 70's, when the witch trials were at their height. I can really only mention the Grey Cock in Brum and Preston folk club, but I had only been singing in public a couple of years by then - ptobably I wasn't very good.

I also saw back in the 1960's an audience eager to see Bert Jansch give Fred Jordan a rough time, when some genius was putting together folk package shows - somewhat in the manner of rock and roll package shows.

I can only say the people you have met have been singularly unfortunate. Whatever other faults we have, I think most folkies are good eggs.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:51 AM

you were no longer guaranteed hearing a folk song at a folk club

There you go again, Jim. Putting an unsubstantiated claim across as fact. Give us details of these folk clubs where you can no longer hear any folk music and people may start to believe you. Until then I will make it clear that it is just your opinion.

and academic definitions are not the point in question. You said so yourself.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 08:52 AM

...
As a singer, I have a loose definition that makes sure that people who turn up to hear folk songs will hear them or songs based on folk syles
...
My need for a tighter definition comes when I am writing or talking about the songs, especially as I am now interested in them as our social history carriers

Now, are you really going to "leave us to it" this time or are you going to make any positive contribution to the discussion?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:51 AM

What do I hear at folk clubs?
A broad range of material,both song and music ranging from unacompanied trad to contemporary.I do also hear the odd pop song often from the 50's or 60's which given the age range of the audience would be blast from past reminding them of their youth. Comic songs are sometimes sung to give a change of mood.
This is the the type of material I have heard ever since I first encountered folk club in the late 60's
The fact that the audience was part of the music ie encouraged and expected to join in with refrains and with songs well known in that club even some verses,made them a warm and welcoming gathering.
Having been to some country Pubs on Dartmoor in 60's and early 70's where the locals would have sings I found a similar mix of music and song,I doubt they were even aware of the folk scene.
I think a range of song and music was always sung by the ordinary people.The singers would pick their contributions to suit the audience and the occasion.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:58 AM

Exact!y my experience too, Derrick but I only go back to the late 70s.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM

The Martinengo-Cesaresco book is fascinating - I have it. It's cheap and easy to obtain second hand - search on http://used.addall.com - Gutenberg's OCR is usually close to unreadably garbled.

Its strength is that she saw European folksong as a unity, which Child and Lloyd did but not many others in the British folk scene.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:39 AM

"Putting an unsubstantiated claim across as fact. Give us details of these folk clubs
You mean the thousand of clubs that have disappeared
Can't remember all their names - they disappeared
I substantiate what I say when I point out the number of people who has said they no longer
You ask for further substantiation after you've ignored all you've already been given
You were around when I was told that if I wanted fol song I had to go to some of the gatherings that don't call themselves "folk" and I might hear some
I argued with you far too long over whether Ed Sheeran was fit stuff for folk clubs
I tell you stopped going to folk clubs because I stopped haring folk songs thare - you tell people that I have no right to have an opinion on folk clubs because I don't go to folk clubs
Joe Heller wrote his classic novel on something like that situation

My experiences was not unlike that described by Guest Derreck the only difference being that there were plenty of other venues around that had policies that guaranteed that most of the evening consisted of folk and folk based material
That is no longer the case - I've been told (by Al I think) that there's no need for that now - it's old hat
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

Dynamic search link for the Cesaresco-Martinengo book (never search on Amazon again). Currently the cheapest is £1.00.

http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/RefineRare.fcgi?id=191026034709415346

From the way it looks up here, an interest in continental European folk tends to go along with a better perception of British folk as well.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:58 AM

sorry I got lost in there - what did I say was old hat? I'm not denying it. Just can't recollect.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

"what did I say was old hat? "
I'm not sure it was you Al - whever it was wasn't th first
I was told that folk music (as I know it - by past experience) is not what people want any more and I have to look somewhere else other than folk clubs
Didn't mean to involve you - it's been said by so many that I shouldn't have mentioned a name)
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 07:29 AM

mention away! I need the publicity.

I will say this. I think its difficult for purely trad singers to function sometimes when the room has been rocking away to more familiar stuff. Particularly if you are intent on singing one of the long ballads, and particularly when there isn't a strong narrative (like Matty Groves) to hold the audiences attention.

Let's put it another way. If you were planning to do a floorspot at The Sailors Return in Weymouth - its a singaround, very popular (no one gets more than two song). I usually settle for one. Its on every Wednesday.

What would you sing in those circumstances, and what would you be frightened or wary of singing. I don't like to think of ANYONE's vision of folk song being rejected out of hand.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 07:30 AM

Some places you might hear folk music that aren't folk clubs:

films
old people's homes
schools
theatre performances
churches
political rallies
private parties
station waiting rooms
football matches
dance events

Comments?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 08:14 AM

Dave the Gnome took your advice and found https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYT6OeEwVi6JSOEb4PDsj3Q Swinton Folk Club Youtube, your old club I believe 2010 is this what you mean ?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 08:15 AM

"Comments?"
Beyond commenting - point made, I think

"I think its difficult for purely trad singers to function sometimes when the room has been rocking away to more familiar stuff. "
Never metioned 'purely trad" singers Al - never attended many of those clubs and would never have been booked in one had I wanted to due to the fact my own repertoire is about non-"purely trad"
It's what you here at a folk club I'm interested in, not the format

Can I say that I've just opened a thread to learn that my name is now being used by a racist to post anti-Traveller bucket-scum
I've even managed to upset the pond-life - must be doing something right
Don't know if there's any connection but I've been told by Google that my account is being hacked (didn't know I had one)
Dale Carnegie-move over
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 08:19 AM

Two points to take up with Al along with questions to ask him (because unlike some who post here, he is the sort of person who gives considered answers to questions posed of him):-
He wrote:-
Maybe the ringbinder and tablet readers do get on my nerves a bit. But I'd rather have that inclusivity. I want people to feel that they all have a right to have a go. I don't want people to feel intimidated like I did.
But would you agree with my post earlier that whereas it may be OK for someone to come and read a song that they have not bothered to learn in a free admission singaround, it is simply not good enough in a situation where people have paid an admission fee?

Then later he wrote:-
However Froots has bit the dust mainly because of its dogged unshakeable belief that we had nothing much to offer compared to the Zulu's, Mexicans, Norwegians etc.
.... and in a previous thread, you wrote that it was Mongolian Nose Flutes (though there are no such thing!) that caused the demise of fRoots. Could I ask you, Al, if you have read my post at 15 Oct 19 - 06:16 AM where I explain that their policy of spreading their editorial content beyond these shores had nothing to do with the magazine's demise? In fact their readership and subscriptions had increased considerably in the years since they started to include World Music, yet the content was always at least 50% from English speaking countries or the minority British languages.
You have claimed elsewhere that the decline in folk clubs has been caused by the concentration on what you seem to regard as the sterility of those with a serious approach to folk songs in favour of the type of performer that you admire - and you have named Derek Brimstone and Alex Campbell. If we are to exlude the British tradition and we ignore foreign language roots music, are we not left with a folk scene with a very narrow compass indeed?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM

Jim, one of your earlier post suggests that your expectation of a folk club is that people will hear folk songs (by which you presumably meant traditional songs) or songs based on folk styles. You seemed to endorse JoeG's description of "plenty of folk songs (both traditional and contemporary - the latter of which I mean from songwriters who work in the folk idiom"

I don't think that is unreasonable, although it has always been the case that you could also expect to hear other forms of acoustic music, some with little or no connection to traditional styles, which have nevertheless come (rightly or wrongly) to be called folk.

If you stopped going to folk clubs because you could not find the music you enjoyed that is entirely understandable. However I think you may have been unlucky, because large numbers of people keep telling us that music of the sort you and Joe have described is just what they hear in modern day folk clubs.

Not going to folk clubs does not of course prevent you from having an opinion about them. But why should we believe your assertions of what is now being played in folk clubs, which you don't attend and are in a different country from where you live, over the descriptions of those who are actually attending them?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM

That I no longer go to clubs is not an argument if that's the reason I no longer go to them
It has been argued constant argument for several years on this forum (from people who do still go to them) that they no longer feel comfortable singing folk songs (particularly unaccompanied ones) at many of the clubs they go to - so "one" is hardly an accurate figure
As it is being constantly argued (can't remember if you are one of these) that "nobody knows what folk song is any more (confirmed by the refusal to discuss definitions) how do you know what you are listening to is "folk" when you go to your club ?
Nobody has a right to redefine a term independently of everybody else otherwise we'd have to by everything without labels and take a chnace (pretty much like today's folk scene)
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

I posted above without comment ~ and this is just the sort of "out of touch" comment we can really do without!

Please Jim go to a folk club (however the term is currently being derived) the year is 2019 October ~ try one or two and one or two guest nights

Report back and if there is nothing you liked stay away from them, thread discussion which are inappropriate and let FOLK CLUBS and concerts get on with present day entertainment, even if they are misnomers

Ray
sorry Jm

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 09:51 AM

More places where folk is one of the genres you might hear:

School playgrounds
TV
Fitness clubs
Buskers
Piped music
Military parades
Nurseries
Tour parties on foreign holiday trips
Historical re-enactments

Implying folk clubs are your only or best option is like saying the place to look if you've lost your coffee mug is at a ceramics museum.

What can we say about it as part of the wider culture?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM

Howard
I have been arguing for a long time on what I believe should be on offer at folk clubs and from the responses, I think I have been able to form a reasonable picture
I am still in touch with some in the same position as myself who make forays into the clubs and give up - some of them are/were once highly regarded singers
Some of the people here have argued for the type of things that cause us to leave in the first place
When you get a regular poster telling you that you should look elsewhere for folksond you don't get closer to a 'horse's mouth' statement than that
Look - all of you - I don't cmain that there are no clubs catering for folk songs
I just suggest that if the number of clubs is anywhere near close to how many clubs, then there are not enough and, if not many of those do the real stuff, then the red light should be flashing for all who love folk song
Rod Stradling has intimated that the general situation has influenced his sales of Traditional CDs - 3 cds sold of England's finest source singer

On the other hand, I've just met the widow of Tom McCarthy the late Clare piper (and a dear friend)
She's not long returned from London where her piper daughter, Jacqueline and her piper husband Tommy Keane played to a packed house at the Musical Traditions Club
The audiences are out there for good traditional stuff
Troll alert - by the way
Someone has opened a thread in my name denigrating the refugees who froze to death in the truck (Fast Food thread) and someone has put up a racist attack on Travellers on the Irish Music Sessions thread
While I am honoured to have been noticed byt the scum-life on this planet, am appalled to see this forum infested by vermin
The subject matter of both of these leads me to suspect who it is, but I ahve no proof - so I have passed on my suspicions and left the matter in respoonsible hands Jim   
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 10:31 AM

Blimey.. I'm away for a few hours for the best and longest kip I've had all week,
and now come back to find this thread banging on again about folk clubs..

Almost word for word repetition of countless previous days postings on the same done to death subject...

Crikey.. Have I woke up on Groundhog Day...!!!!!?????

Oh well.. here we go again...

"" and any restrictive orthodoxies clung onto by the acoustic 'folk establishment',"
A profound statement from someone who has
"nothing to do with the 'formal' folk scene""

Thank you.. though "profound" may be over stating my very reasonable and objective observation..
Arrived at after approx 15 years mudcat membership,
reading the same negative strictures, and snobby anti pop culture hostility,
from the loudest and most belligerently opinionated mudcatters...
year in and year out...

By now, 2019, I've read far too much "Thou shalt, and shalt nots.." at mudcat when it comes to performing folk music...

So much so, I might tend to gain the wrong impression about this place...???

I could almost feel like a heretic, fearful of folk puritans out searching the west country for me.
No wonder I stay at home hiding in my computer den...!!!

Fortunately I've also come to know there are very positive open minded mudcatters,
who do redress the balance somewhat...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 10:42 AM

" I think I have been able to form a reasonable picture"

Jim - Guess what.. I also think I I have and can continue to do that...

Neither of us has been particularly active paricipants in UK folk clubs this last few decades...

But do I dismiss, or disdain, the validity of your ideas,
as you so readily do mine..???

No, I'm just cheesed off with the opinionated way you relentlessly broadcast them...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 10:48 AM

You mean the thousand of clubs that have disappeared

No I don't and you well know it. You keep saying you cannot hear folk music at a folk club. I am asking you for examples of folk clubs where they do not play folk music. Surely, if they are the norm, you must be able to come up with some examples.

Guest Keith Price. Yes, that was my club until about 7 years ago. Not quite sure what you are replying to with "is this what you mean?" Sorry. I will say though that the guy doing the filming did have his favourites and they were, mainly, contemporary so it is not really a true sample of a typical Swinton folk club night.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 11:01 AM

Question:
Maybe the ringbinder and tablet readers do get on my nerves a bit. But I'd rather have that inclusivity. I want people to feel that they all have a right to have a go. I don't want people to feel intimidated like I did.
But would you agree with my post earlier that whereas it may be OK for someone to come and read a song that they have not bothered to learn in a free admission singaround, it is simply not good enough in a situation where people have paid an admission fee?
My answer:
I suppose I have an advantage, in that I was brought up listening to all sorts of nonsense in Quaker meetings. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus told us 'Judge not,lest ye be judged.' And so I judged not.Try it. Fuck knows what sort of life leads one to read out song lyrics in public. Either that or put a contract out on the stupid bugger.

Then later he wrote:-
However Froots has bit the dust mainly because of its dogged unshakeable belief that we had nothing much to offer compared to the Zulu's, Mexicans, Norwegians etc.
.... and in a previous thread, you wrote that it was Mongolian Nose Flutes (though there are no such thing!) that caused the demise of fRoots. Could I ask you, Al, if you have read my post at 15 Oct 19 - 06:16 AM where I explain that their policy of spreading their editorial content beyond these shores had nothing to do with the magazine's demise? In fact their readership and subscriptions had increased considerably in the years since they started to include World Music, yet the content was always at least 50% from English speaking countries or the minority British languages.
You have claimed elsewhere that the decline in folk clubs has been caused by the concentration on what you seem to regard as the sterility of those with a serious approach to folk songs in favour of the type of performer that you admire - and you have named Derek Brimstone and Alex Campbell. If we are to exlude the British tradition and we ignore foreign language roots music, are we not left with a folk scene with a very narrow compass indeed?

Answer
Well I think we disagree about what you call a serious approach to folk music. The reason I loved Brimstone is because I was doing a job I hated and I found a bloke who for the last five years since I last met him, had found a way to sing folk songs and make a living. His repertoire ranged from Broonzy, the Copper family, to the African guitarist Jean Bosco M'wenda and further afield. In following him. I found my own muse and skill set
That's what I call a seriouds approach. I can assure you, it takes dedication. Not an indifference to your audience and a willingness to bore the bollocks off them and arrogantly demand respect. .

Froots never engaged me because it talked about the lateest product the 'world music' was trying to foist on us. It had NO interest in the practicalities of thousands (possibly Millions) of us running the folk clubs. You put it down, no wiser than when you picked it up. It had no interest for the activists and ground troops. Thats why people stopped reading it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 11:07 AM

Jack - your list can also inclde..

at home..

Family and friends in impromtu informal 'folk' sessions,
around the kitchen table, or in the front room, or even garden and shed...

After pub parties..

That was my experience when I used to travel more and kip round mate's houses...
But we're getting old, and the band stopped gigging;
and over the last decade looking after my mum has taken over...


oh.. and in Lighthouses... well 100 years ago anyway..

A couple of nights ago I watched "The Vanishing"..
A low budget Scotish movie about a 1900 light house mystery.
It was a bit of a disapointment,
but quite a good folk performance from lighthouse keepers
winding down afer a long day..

[I presume at least one of the actors was actually singing and not dubbed...???]

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:-
Rod Stradling has intimated that the general situation has influenced his sales of Traditional CDs - 3 cds sold of England's finest source singer.

Rod is also aware that the world has continued to change in the last few years and has fairly recently instituted digital downloads of all his CDs and as far as I know they are doing rather well. See his editorial post for 30/12/18 at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/editor.htm
I don't have a modern car but ones that I have been in are no longer fitted with a CD player; just a socket to plug in your iPod, phone or other digital device.
Banging on about CD sales is about as productive as statements about the sole importance of British folk clubs.
I believe that I am quite a few years older than you, Jim, but I am still trying hard to live as though it is 2019.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 12:06 PM

"I believe that I am quite a few years older than you,"
Really - I thought 78 was bad enough - my sympathies
Won't continue this - might not be here for much longer (the forum - I hasten to add)
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 12:26 PM

Al:-
Thats why people stopped reading it.
But they didn't, Al. The paid-up subscriptions were at their healthiest ever when the magazine ended. The reasons for the financial loss were complex and due to a number of factors but the four main ones were:-
* The near impossibility of an independent magazine (of any nature) being distributed to shops. This was possible at one time but now the distributors only want to work with the big boys of the magazine industry.
* The collapse of the adverts from World & folk labels. At one time this was the magazine's main source of income. Artists make their own CDs and they sell nearly all of them at the end of gigs.
* The cost of printed a glossy high quality magazine has rocketed in recent years and there is only so much that can be passed on by increased cover charge.
* The rapid decline in all magazine sales as everything moves on to the internet. My daughter is an art editor of two of the BBC magazines and is worried about her future.

Al again....
Froots never engaged me because it talked about the lateest product the 'world music' was trying to foist on us. It had NO interest in the practicalities of thousands (possibly Millions) of us running the folk clubs.
No, Al. World Music is not a 'product', it is a movement very similar to folk clubs except that when I go - as I do - to, for example, WOMAD in Wiltshire and MUSICPORT in Whitby, I love the vitality amongst the young people who decades ago might have gone to folk clubs but who are the sort of people that do not go along with the slightly dodgy view found in many clubs that folk music ends at Dover.
Tell you what Al, why don't you listen to my programme on Rocket FM on Monday at 7pm. The playlist is already up on my thread for these programmes.

I have to go now as Tina and I need to run through the songs that we are going to be singing at a folk club tonight. Incidently, I'm glad that we bought tickets in advance for tonight (Andy Irvine) as they sold out over a fortnight ago.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 12:47 PM

Howard - I answered your questions because its nice to have one's presence acknowledged. However I do think maybe we are making the classic mistake of ezamining the entrails of the past.

THe way forward surely is to look forward. We need our own television channel, our own national radio. And not the glum middle class buggers of BBC4. If we have a platform, we need people with some concept and experience of entertainment.

We need the political power to be wrested away from the weakened music industry. When I was gigging old peoples homes - before I did my gig. The radio was always blaring away - totally ignored by residents and staff - we need a radio stations with old people in mind.

If you entertain you will gain importance and be able to advance your agenda. Who would have thought a programme based on ballroom dancing would have any econpmic importance?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:15 PM

Referring to one of Al Whittle's posts above on the 25th, said trances and improvisation and violence were probably due to the edible (if you would take the risk) Fly Agaric, reported as being consumed by Viking invaders to fuel their berserker rages.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:23 PM

Hi Richard. Good to see you. You are not around often enough nowadays.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:23 PM

All I can say is that I've always gone to folk clubs, and the most usual reaction when you mentioned Froots was a look of total despair. hardly anybody I knew read it.

The impression it gave was not that folk music stopped at Dover.

It stopped somewhere in the middle of polltax band B.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM

Fly Agaric have also been linked to the myth of Santa Claus...

Trippy Xmas boys and girls...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

"All I can say is that I've always gone to folk clubs, and the most usual reaction when you mentioned Froots was a look of total despair."

I think by now we may be establishing that folk clubs are no longer
a significanly representative and authorative voice
on anything in the wider world outside their clubs...????


Maybe folk clubs are the music world equivalent of the DUP...???

Though at least for the moment the DUP are still allowed to exert disproportionate influence on the present & future of the vastly larger UK...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

Oh fnard, Whittle again also on the 25th "However Froots has bit the dust mainly because of its dogged unshakeable belief that we had nothing much to offer compared to the Zulu's, Mexicans, Norwegians etc." There are two main things to be said about that. First if was "Froots" not "Anglicana" AND THEREFORE BY DEFINITION MULTICULTURAL.

Secondly the Froots approach reflects the underlying truth of the Karpeles definition - namely that the concept of "folk" music had to be applicable without distortion across cultures. There are other minor issues about the Kaarpeles definition but we can (alas, and again) debate those later or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:40 PM

I agree with Al's complaint about Froots and "world music products" - its primary focus was commoditized music. Which is why I never subscribed. There just wasn't enough for me about the kinds of musical experience you can't put on a disc, no matter where from. (This was deliberate. I was once planning a trip to a place whose music is not well known outside, and asked Iain if he'd be interested in an article. He said, only if there are commercially available recordings. Well there weren't and still aren't, though YouTube has since caught up).

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 03:57 PM

Try a subscription to the "Living Tradition"

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:51 PM

Still no details of folk clubs where there is no folk music then?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 09:43 PM

Richard Bridge

The Zulus don't give a fuck about me, so I don't get the moral imperative for me to give a shit about them.

You and Jim might think it behoves me to be crippled with post imperialism guilt - but frankly I've been too busy, and I think you'll find that's the way of the world in which most folk club attendees live.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM

"Still no details of folk clubs where there is no folk music then?"
Answer my question Dave and you have your answer
You really have avoided your own attitude long enough
If you can't or refuse to define folk song you have no right to the title 'folk song'
Probably not going to be around long enough to continue this
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:30 AM

Your selective memory has kicked in again, Jim. It was only a few posts back I reminded you of this


Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 08:52 AM

...As a singer, I have a loose definition that makes sure that people who turn up to hear folk songs will hear them or songs based on folk syles
...My need for a tighter definition comes when I am writing or talking about the songs

I also told you that as a fellow singer I have a "loose definition" too. If it sounds like folk music, it probably is. If you can have a loose definition, so can everyone else.

As I have now answered your question, how about you answering mine? Just where are these folk clubs where you can no longer hear folk music?

That is all I am asking. This thread is not about me or you. It is about the current state of folk music in the UK. You state quite categorically that there are folk clubs where you can longer hear folk music. If that is true we can do something about it. We can let people know that they do not deserve the title. If you cannot back it up, I can only assume it is not true and ask you to stop spreading misleading information.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:43 AM

Dave , there is some truth in what Jim says.There is now on the uk folk scene an increase in songs that are similiar to pop music,in content, particularly SOME contemporary songs about personal relationships being played in folk clubs, and also to some extent buddy holly and elvis etc, i think it is still a minority.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:44 AM

We've been though ti=hnis over and over again Dave
Loose definition doesn'r mean squat unless it relates either directly or at least in form to the long documented meaning of folk
Take The Penguin Book of English Folksong as your starter for ten
Does your club guarantee that you will here something relating to (not exclicely to) YTHos songs
If so where does your Ed Shreerin sound fit into this?
If your club goes into this for this sound why do you hound my postings by saying I am wrong ?
You were not responsible for making the statement that if I wanted folk song I should go to places that don't necessarily cater for them but you most certainly have never contradicted this statement though you are fully aware it has been made
Sorry - have no time to waste on someone who avoids issues as you consistently do
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:47 AM

My loose definition is based on songs like those composed by MacColl, Bogle et al
Not an Ed Sheerinalike among them - that is the pop sound and has no place in any folk club - that's what they were set up to escape from
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:52 AM

I know it happens, Dick, but Jim is implying that he can go to a folk club and hear no folk music. I have never in my life been to any folk club where no folk music has been performed. Have you?

Jim, it was you that said that as a singer you used a loose definition. I do the same. If it sounds like folk music to me, I am happy to believe it is. Now, once again, where are these clubs that no longer present any folk music?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 05:05 AM

Dave, do you disagree with this post
ubject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 04:47 AM

My loose definition is based on songs like those composed by MacColl, Bogle et al
Not an Ed Sheerinalike among them - that is the pop sound and has no place in any folk club - that's what they were set up to escape from
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 05:07 AM

in my opinion folk clubs were set up as an alternative to pop music, and i wish them to stay that way,so does Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 05:12 AM

"Jim is implying that he can go to a folk club and hear no folk music"
I am not implying it Dave - I'm repeating what I have been told here
My loose definition is based entirely in the sound and the structore of folk song forms - is yours ?
If not, why do you describe it as "folk" ?
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 05:22 AM

Dick, yes, MacColl and Bogle and many others do write folk songs. I agree. What I disagre with is some songs written by other contemporary writers cannot be performed in a folk style. Jim is fixated on Ed Sheeran but I was only using one of his songs as an example. I still maintain that his "Nancy Mulligan" could be performed by a folk artist and not be out of place in a folk club. Have a listen to it and see if you agree but don't get hung up on just one song. I am talking of the principle that there are many songs that can cross genres. After all, many folk songs have entered the pop charts.