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The current state of folk music in UK
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:23 AM Joe, I speak from experience here, even if it is do what I say not do what I do. Let it go. If not, you risk embarking on a long and increasingly unpleasant dialogue with a person whom you seem already to suspect of not reading your posts properly before responding. At least he hasn't called you a racist, like he did me. Anybody worth caring about will have read your contributions and will think fairly about them. Best wishes Pseu. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:33 AM I ma not sure Joe is the one who needs to let it go P. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jeri Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:39 AM "do what I do. Let it go." No offense, but if you're still focusing on him, talking about him, you haven't let it go. Nobody here is responsible for anyone else's mental health, and being the internet, there is an abundance of pwoplw lacking it. This is the last thing I'll say about it, but this focus on individuals really de-rails the discussion of the subject of the thread, music, or whatever. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:44 AM Agreed Jeri - I have enjoyed the discussion apart from the ongoing battles between some participants I just wanted to ensure Jim knows that I do enjoy traditional music as well as many other areas of folk music Hopefully this will be the 1000th post! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM It's not enough for Jim that we like trad songs...??? We must live, breathe, eat, sweat, piss, shit, and bleed, trad songs.. Then, and only then, we might attain the first level of enlightenment on our pathway to becoming the holiest of trad folk crusader warrior monks... Of course, Jim might be fully aware how much he is overstating his opinions, in passionate/evangelical opposition to what he sees as a declining 'less than ideal' modern culture...????? If the human race has survived another century or more, they will most likely still acknowledge and enjoy trad folk songs in one form or another.. Jim has more than done his bit to help ensure that... The 23rd Century folk scene might even be all totally acoustic again, songs handed down by memory from old to young, in a devastated post apocalyptic ruralised world with no electricity... That's something for folkies to look forward to then... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:56 AM Obviously I was still typing while Jeri posted... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 03 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM 60s TV jingle '1001 cleans a deep, deep carpet for less than half a crown' discuss |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Nov 19 - 12:00 PM I thought it was a big, big carpet. Is this the folk process in action? :D |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 03 Nov 19 - 12:15 PM That's right Dave - "1001, 1001 gets rid of that workaday frown, 1001 cleans a big big carpet for less than half a crown [basso profundo:] For less than half a crown.." |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Nov 19 - 12:17 PM ok.. now we've got a big carpet, what can we sweep under it...??? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 03 Nov 19 - 12:39 PM The current state of folk music in UK (Report from Lewes)Lewes is the smallish (18,000 people) County Town of East Sussex Let's start with the Lewes Saturday Folk Club workshops. The workshops mostly last a full Saturday or Sunday & the tutor performs at the Elephant & Castle, White Hill, Lewes BN7 2DJ, in the evening. Booking forms can be printed from the website :- www.lewessaturdayfolkclub.org/ about three months in advance. The workshop programme for the remainder of 2019 is as follows:- RILEY BAUGUS: US OLD-TIME BANJO WORKSHOP - Sunday 10th. November 2019 Then into 2020 (and there may be some later additions):- 7 Mar - Narthen - Vocal harmony In addition, there are guest nights every Saturday night. fairly often with capacity crowds, apart from August when themed singarounds take place. One that I would like to draw your attention to for personal reasons is this one 1st February "ALL THE BIRDS OF THE AIR" There are also regular monthly sessions in five other pubs in the town - two for English dance tunes, and one each for American Old Time, Irish music and West Gallery singing. We have just returned from one of the Sunday Lunchtime tune sessions at The Volunteer - Very enjoyable with fifteen musicians and a very high standard of musicianship. The are also two monthly mixed traditional song and sessions at village pubs with five miles of Lewes. Three display dance teams are based in and have their practices in the town including The Knots of May which is regularly booked at all the country's leading folk festivals. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 03 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM So, after a thousand posts I think it is fairly safe to say that afficianadoes of folk music fall into two camps. Those that know folk music when they hear it, whether it was written last week or 200 years ago are one group. Those that have to disect, inspect, and analyse folk music (as they see it) ad nauseum are a second roup. I am firmly in the former camp. I have enjoyed folk music for over 60 years having first come across it sitting on my Grandmothers knee, and then encouraged by my father to sing. I don't need to disect, inspect, analyse folk music in order to enjoy it. In fact I find the above tends to waste time that could be spent enjoying it. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 03 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM That's pretty impressive Vic! Certainly no sign of folk music being in trouble in Lewes! Raggytash as you would imagine I'd like to be admitted to camp 1! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 03 Nov 19 - 01:09 PM Lewes continued Just as I'd finished typing my previous post, the impressive local 136 glossy paper monthly free magazine dropped through our letterbox. I looked first as always at the listings pages to see what is on in the town and it reminded me that often at weekends here are Barn Dances in the town's All Saints Arts Centre - usually as a fundraiser for some cause or other - and there is one this month - Saturday 23rd November Barn Dance. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 03 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM Lewes Addendum ... and then an email arrives saying that another All-Day workshop has been added to the 2020 list :-
with the additional information that two more are being finalised. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 03 Nov 19 - 01:27 PM with respect raggy, inspecting and analysing performance of folk music is one way of improving, the problem with some performers at singers clubs is that they do not listen to themselves and do not practise, and do not realise that is why they give folk music a bad name, in noother form of music do i hear this other than perhaps some cpuntry and western[eglack of practice]. classical and jazzand blues and rock musicians all practiseand listen to their perfpmances. i am not saying i am perfect but i strive to improve |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 03 Nov 19 - 01:31 PM to continue i have said i do not want to go to a folk club and hear buddy holly , but at least andy caven did it well, but there is no excuse for asnyone to shuffle through buddy holly or anything else with bits of paper fallin out of folders |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 03 Nov 19 - 01:52 PM with respect LewEs used to have two good clubs, Nobody was prepared to come forward and take over from vic and tina, so one closed. PEOPLE HAVE TO REALISE THAT UNLESS THEY ORGANISE EVENTS. EVENTS DO NOT HAPPEN. One succesful club, closed because no one suitable came forward FORTUNATELY LEWES HAS ANOTHER CLUB WITH DEDICATED ORGANISERS. IMO a scene is not healthy if there are eventually no venues to play because there are no organisers,even music instrumental sessions even require someone to organise them. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:00 PM Quite agree Dick. BUT. I listen my myself and disect analyse if I could sing that song better, could I improve on my performance of it. I do not discuss, disect or analyse whether the song is 'folk music'. You may consider a song to be folk music, the next man may say it is not, the next man may say something different again. So that's three people not singing, not participating and not enjoying the music. Waste of time in my book.... and I suspect the books of many other people. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:10 PM Dick - Do the pressures most young people are struggling under in austerity Britain 2019, allow sufficient spare time for hobbies and organising clubs devoted to them...??? Is there too much of an inbalance of fairly well off baby boomer pensioners who have enough time and money for this now; but unfortunately not much lifespan left to keep things ticking over, until ordinary younger folks are in a more positive lifestyle position to take over and carry on...?????? Does this make UK folk music even more dependent on comfily well off upper middle class public school educated folkie millenials...????????? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:30 PM raggy The current state of folk music in UK, i suppose it becomes unavoidable that what is sung in folk clubs and whether it is folk music, has to come in to it , i too would prefer and think it would be more useful to not discuss that aspect ofthe folk scene, but strictly speaking it is not off topic .PFR Yes good points, but here in ireland many young people play, this partly down to CCE[DESPITE THEIR FAULTS]and government funding and dedicated teachers, this is despite the austerity in ireland |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM however in scotland, i am sure it is more like ireland, and of course nobody mentions Wales[ can anyone update us on the forgotten province |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:45 PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-ogTQqP6NQ thought you might enjoy this |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Nov 19 - 03:37 PM well if the aim was to clear the air, and convince me that I was no part of anything. it worked. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 03 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM Still in the same place I was a 100 and a thousand posts ago. I used to play with Lonnie Donegan's kids when they lived round the corner in South Woodford back in the 60's. Very nice they were as was their mum |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 03 Nov 19 - 04:09 PM And I used to go out with Jimmy McGregor's ex wife, Shirley, briefly. So always been close to folk music but never enough |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 03 Nov 19 - 04:10 PM Lighten up folks... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,ottery Date: 03 Nov 19 - 04:14 PM Train got cancelled. Wandering at a loss through the streets of Shrewsbury I heard sound of fiddles, a drum and a melodion coming out of an attractive old pub - Loggerheads is what it says above the list of licensees by the door. Have been sitting with a beer for half an hour listening to live folk music encountered in its natural habitat. Wish it would happen more often. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 03 Nov 19 - 04:30 PM It does. Take York Golden Ball in York in Bishophill would be very similar tonight and every Sunday for a good session. Maltings on Tuesday. Mixed session and song on a Friday at the Three Legged Mare. Black Swan on a Thursday for a more organised 'folk club'. Mended Drum in Huby on a Wednesday - lot of traditional song. This lack of music is passing me by. I must take it with me as I go because it always seems to be there. And nip across to Beverley and Hull along that corridor and there is oodles of music. And North Pickering and Scarborough. And Whitby. And Robin Hoods Bay And that's without trying. If I hadn't been playing on Saturday I would have gone to see either Dan Webster (might be a bit modern for this thread) or Eliza Carthy at Goathland (she must have some roots surely?) Ridiculous amounts of music about of a folkish nature including a lot of traditional song. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 03 Nov 19 - 06:15 PM It's why we moved to York - and the pubs of course! I think we are particularly well blessed here though. I imagine many towns and cities have a less flourishing scene |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,ottery Date: 03 Nov 19 - 06:40 PM I lived in Leeds for a while, and enjoyed the liveliness of the folk music scene in Yorkshire. Powys so far seems to be a bit quieter on that front afaik, and York, Otley, Whitby etc. are now out of my reach. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM I imagine many towns and cities have a less flourishing scene"I THINK you are probably right,LEWES LOST ONE OF ITS folk clubs macclesfield used to have two it now has none ,the isle of wight used to have two, idont thik it has any now, bishps stortford has lost its folk club,ipswich no longer has a folk club sudbury and haverhill no longer have clubs and that is just for starters |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:24 AM With respect i have been travelling the uk folk clubs for approx 45 years, there are fewr folk venues than there were 45 years ago. i am pleased to hear york is healthy, however it used to have2 flourishing folk clubs in the late 70s .I PLAYED THEM BOTH A NUMBER OF TIMES |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:28 AM IN YORK there was a club run by noel dobson NOEL DOBSON, plus the ancestor of the black swan folk club, scarborough used to have a club, hull had a club selby had a club, i dont thik any of these exist now |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Peter Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:25 AM The loss of folk clubs is probably under stated because of a trend from weekly to monthly when new clubs do start. in the nineties and noughties there was a definite move away from clubs to sessions. Where I am now this is suffering due to pub closures and the shift in pub culture from drinking to eating. Comments above about Yorkshire suggest that people up there still eat at home and drink in the pubs but south of the Humber the trend is definitely to eat out and drink cheap supermarket booze at home. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 04 Nov 19 - 08:21 AM Loss of many pubs and similar venues does contribute greatly The collaborations between pubs micro breweries and sessions and folksongs should be noted and this does not necessarily pre suppose the use of microphones ~ provides real ale and a ready audience! Some great mixed sessions at Doncaster Tap, Kelham Island, Fernandes Tap and folky Polka Hop Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 04 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM Any body interested in hearing Walter Pardon's own statement that the songs he learned from his Uncle Billy mostly came from broadsides can do so here, towards the end. The 'Tom' referred to is Billy's father, Walter's maternal grandfather. They can also hear Pardon deny point blank that they called the songs they sang 'folk'. Pardon says he did learn some 'folk songs' at school, but plainly differentiates between what he learned at school and the 'old' songs he learned from Billy. I am collating the information I can find about Pardon, who, it seems to me, was most certainly lionised. I was particularly interested to find one of the many Pardon researchers reporting that Billy would go to music hall/variety and then go through the songs at home since some of Pardon's delivery reminded me of variety singers I recall seeing on the TV in my youth. I have lost the reference for that but I'll post it in a thread later, and then people will be able to add other information they have. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 04 Nov 19 - 10:28 AM Pseudonymous wrote - Pardon says he did learn some 'folk songs' at school, but plainly differentiates between what he learned at school and the 'old' songs he learned from Billy. I found this to be quite a common experience when we used to book the old singers in Sussex at our club in Lewes, particularly for our 'Sussex Singers Nights' when the entire evening was given over to them. Every time George Spicer came - and like most of them, he didn't wait to be booked to show up, he came because he enjoyed the evenings - he would say "I don't know any folk songs, you know!" and then he would disprove this by singing them in an absorbing and entertaining way. There was also some mutterings about where Bob Blake and Bob Lewis learned their songs.... but it didn't actually matter that much. They were all good singers, they had that authentic style of the pre-folk revival singers and those who came learned a lot from them. That was all that mattered. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 04 Nov 19 - 10:29 AM Pseud if you want to discuss walter can you start a new thread thanks,are you trying to wind jim caroll up or are you just trolling |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 04 Nov 19 - 11:50 AM I agree with Dick - any discussion about Walter Pardon or any other singer should really be in a new thread otherwise we'll drift way off topic again! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM Walter Pardon would be an interesting thread in it's own right now in 2019, but is he really that relevent here in a thread about 2019...??? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 04 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM Great source of songs on MT I have a number of CDs and Vinyl, see online lyrics Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Martin Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:36 PM Whoever asked the question about the state of folk clubs in Wales - I'm sorry I just can't find the message amongst the morass of stuff on here - have you searched casbar.co.uk? May be of help. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Martin Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:50 PM I've tried to do a 'blue clicky' link on the casbar.co.uk website but for some reason it didn't work! I downloaded it & it was grand - it says it covers S Wales but I've been assured it also encompasses Mid & N too! Hope this is some help? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:51 PM I asked the question |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Starship Date: 04 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM Jim Martin, I have begun to think it's in the way one holds his tongue ;-) http://casbar.co.uk/folk-clubs-festivals/ |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Brian Peters Date: 04 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM Evening all. I've been lurking on the margins of this thread waiting for a moment when I might have something useful to contribute. I've carried out no extensive surveys, so any evidence here is purely anecdotal, and based on the experiences of a performer who generally inhabits the more traditionally-inclined areas of the folk world. The distinguished Cajun fiddle player Dewey Balfa – both a ‘traditional musician’ and an active revivalist of his indigenous music – once made a very interesting statement: “A culture is preserved one generation at a time”. I take this to mean that it’s up to the next generation to decide what they do with the old music I’ve loved all my adult life, without people like me telling them what they should and should not be doing. I say this without denying the inspiration and advice I received back in the day from more experienced singers like Harry Boardman and Roy Harris, but my approach is to perform and teach the music as best I can and hope something rubs off on the people who hear it. Over the last few years I’ve worked with several very talented musicians thirty or more years younger than myself, and it’s been a lot of fun. They are all different in character, and their musical interests have varied from a passionate focus on the old songs, to a talent for new compositions of their own - but all of them have had a huge respect for traditional song and music. As far as I’m concerned, that’s as it should be. The best thing their elders can do is to make the musical resources – song collections, source recordings, anecdotes about singers, etc - available to young singers and players like that, to use in whatever way they might choose. There is no shortage of interest there – one of this year’s festival hot tickets, Granny’s Attic, play a high proportion of the kind of songs Cecil Sharp would have nodded approvingly at, to an extraordinary degree of musical virtuosity – and they’re all in their 20s. If that’s the kind of music that floats your boat, you’ve plenty of reasons to be cheerful. But all of those young musicians – whether or not they’re trying to base a career on their talents – are well aware that their audiences contain more than a few grey hairs, and that folk clubs are dwindling as their organisers lose some of their youthful energy, and I think there’s a growing awareness that they need to be organising things for themselves. However, much as I’ve always found the folk club format very well-suited to the kind of songs that came to us from the tap room, barn and nursery, we also have to accept that the venues of the future may not tick all the boxes of the upstairs pub room, the two 40-minute guest spots, the floor singers, and the raffle. While I’m here I can’t resist commenting on a couple of the tangential discussions aired in this thread. I first saw Walter Pardon (yes, I know, sorry...) onstage when I was just over 20, at Whitby Folk Festival. I’d never heard of him, and was certainly unaware of any ‘lionization’, but he completely won over his audiences with a good mix of songs well sung, an entirely unassuming – yet very committed – approach to them, and plain old modesty and warmth. There was nothing of the variety performer about him, even when singing Music Hall – he looked down at his shoes while singing. Forty years later I still listen to his recordings and play them to workshop classes - he didn’t have the flamboyance of a Tanner or a Larner, but was one of the best in my opinion - though of course that doesn’t mean everyone has to like his stuff. Secondly, although I would always say that folk music should be immediate, and be able to grab an audience from the off without any kind of analysis, the fact is that learning about the history of the music and the way it works is fascinating in itself. I’ve always believed that the old songs are not ‘just songs’. They come from particular historical periods, they tell particular stories, they have interesting melodies, and they were sung by real people whose own stories are often colourful and fascinating. Audiences tell me they like to hear some of that; it really isn’t a binary choice. I’m sure there was another point I wanted to make, but that’s probably enough for now. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 04 Nov 19 - 07:17 PM Thanks Brian - some very good points there and I totally agree with you that it is up to the next generation to decide what to do with the songs. From what I have witnessed - and Granny's Attic are an excellent example - they are in very safe hands. Re communicating the background to the songs to the audience, Jim Moray did this very well during his recent set at Musicport. All of the young (or youngish!) singers I have heard and met have huge respect for the source material but they, quite rightly want to put their own stamp on it - whether that is keeping close to the original - as I would say Granny's Attic tend to do, or rocking them up like the Whiskey Priests did with mining songs in the 90's (and more recently when they reformed), or using electronica (Jim Moray, Broadcaster) or small orchestral or brass ensembles (Jim Moray again, Bellowhead, Unthanks). That in my view is what will keep the music alive for people to enjoy in the future in whatever venues exist in the future. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Martin Date: 04 Nov 19 - 08:24 PM 'The Sandman' - Ah ha, right - thks! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 05 Nov 19 - 03:46 AM hello brian hope all is well in dock green.Iwuld agree there are some talented younger peformers Gemma Khawaja[ who has been influenced by Harry Cox] ans who is booked this year at www.fastnetmaritime.com. jack rutter is another i have noticed. That does not convince me that the state of the uk folk scene is as healthy as it was 40 years ago. my advice would be do not turn professional, i was lucky i made a living during my years ,thank god i now have a pension. my advice to aspiring performers would be have another string to your bow, one that allows you time to spend on music, but means you are not entirely dependent on it , there are also singers[ they are a minority] who are happy to be slipshod at singers nights but who are not prepared to listen to guest singers who have worked at their craft,the same people are treating audiences with a lack of respect by not bothering to work harder at their performing, this has not always been the case, there was a time when people procrastinating with paper portfolios was unheard of |
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