The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 03:02 PM

>>>>>If the clubs pro=vied the lifeblood for our music they are essential and need discussing
If they are not, someone needs to come up with an alternative rather the alienated internet<<<<<<

We did and are doing. You just ignore it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 03:16 PM

This thread reminds me of the old joke about ‘how many Folkies does it take to change a light bulb’.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 06:41 PM

'The 'Tam Linn' I now has 40 verses Al - please don't tell me 'American Pie' has more than 3 !!'

Yes but Tamm linn doesn't have a chorus that is repeated repeated about fifty times!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 02:05 AM

‘American Pie’ has six verses, with seven repetitions of the ‘chorus’ (sometimes referred to as the ‘Refrain’).

My band were the paid Guests a gig at a folk club a few years ago, where a few of the residents were given a two-song floor-spot at the start of the second half. The final floor-spot was given to a local ‘star-turn’, a well-known ‘Strictly Trad’ type, who made it very clear that someone of his ‘stature’ in the local scene should have more than two songs. As time was getting on, and in fairness to the other floor-spotters, he was asked to keep to two songs, which he did - but his second song was ‘Tam Lin’, sung in its entirety. The result was that, due to his selfishness and rude, vengeful behaviour, and in order to finish by 11pm, we had to drop two songs from our second set - no problem as far as we were concerned, other than that the club got, through no fault of ours, less than they paid for.

On the subject of ‘American Pie‘ v. ‘Tam Lin’, I know which of those most invites audience-participation, relates to my life and times the best, and which I’d rather hear any time.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:16 AM

"Yes but Tamm linn doesn't have a chorus that is repeated repeated about fifty times!"
Thanks be to god - it's boringly meaningless enough as it is

"Not to my taste" has nothing to do with this Joe
I don't want to have a pissing contest with people over what they like - I'm saying none of your songs have anything whatever to do with folk songs, nor do they resemble them in any way

I'll tell you what - if that's what you want to do, you pick a song and tellme what you find "good" or 'important anout it, and I'll pick, say my favourite ballad and do te same

"We did and are doing. You just ignore it."
The alternative put up here is to alienate by tearing it up from its grass roots and sticking it on the net or replacing teh clubs by impersonal festivals and to top it all, replacing the democratic nature of the club scene with a star system
Then you add to the mix "nobody knows what folk sog is any more"
That's nor replacing or improving what has gone before, that is demolition
I won't begin to talk about the massive damage that is being and has already been done on the research front by tearing down over a century's research in order to replace it with new and as yet unsubstantiated ideas
The folk scene is rapidly beginning to resemble the devastated Britain depicted in last night's War of the Worlds
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:39 AM

Was at a fine mixed song session yesterday (Sunday) pm at Wakefield ~ unaccompanied songs, accompanied songs and tunes ~ at a folky pub ~ run by folk enthusiasts, Polka Hop ~ encourages and promotes folk song and music

Similarly Doncaster Tap runs at least 2 Saturday pm song sessions and with attendees comprised like the Wakefield one with attendees from Worksop and further ~ Doncaster is on the main rail way line of course

I do enjoy the day time sessions!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM

Prsonally I always do the chorus of american Pie at least fifty times.

using the folk process, i also added a chorus to tam linn. I took the chorus of Jolene.

Tam Linn ! tam Linn!
Don't turn into a lion
Cos tam Linn is the chap
I've got me eye on!

always goes down like trapeze artist with diarrhoea!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:21 AM

"Was at a fine mixed song session yesterday (Sunday) pm at Wakefield "
More "Ding, ding, I'm o the bus" I'm afraid Ron
And more evasion from you Dave, I'm sad to say
You destroy argments by facing them head-on, not by sneakng around them, which has become the established tactic here (with you leading the charge)
I've shown you mine, are you realy oing to keep yours safely zipped up ?
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:24 AM

My favorite versions of Tam Lin are by Imagined Village and Tickled Pink - very inventive arrangements though I suspect they may be shortened versions

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:31 AM

You have no case Jim. You are arguing from a position of ignorance. Every time you pontificate on the current state of folk music in the UK you show how little you really know about it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

Jim I see you are in a combative aggressive mood again. You do yourself and the discussion no favours

You have no current first hand knowledge of the UK folk scene - many of the rest of us do. Nobody is saying it is perfect but to describe it as being like the aftermath of War of the World's is ridiculous hype.

I know you want us all to consider 'folk' as being the same as you consider it to be but that isn't going to happen. Those of us, like me, who have been going to folk clubs,festivals, singarounds and music sessions for over 40 years hearing largely the same type of music consider the 'folk scene' to be that scene we have been part of - not just the traditional song scene. If I had wanted this thread just to be about the places traditional songs are performed I would have titled it more specifically.

Folk to us means the wonderful music we have listened to for the last decades. Your constant attempt to change our perceptions isn't going to work. It is only going to disrupt the discussion

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:41 AM

https://youtu.be/4FuaSdOdpzw

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:01 AM

"Jim I see you are in a combative aggressive mood again."
Oh come on Joe, don't yuo start
I am noyt in an aggressiove mood
We're here to discuss something, if we can't do tat enthusiastically we might as well all go off and join a fan club
I have offered an argument as clearly as I am able andf I ahve just made an offer
If you regard that as "aggressive2 that you libve in a different place than I do
No takers, I assume
Listing your favourites is both boring and unproductive uness you are prepared to say why
I suppose you are too young to remember The Goons, "I like chips in brown gravy" sketch
You can take comfort from you knowing you have Pseud on your side though
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:17 AM

Ok maybe your words came across more aggressively than you meant

I and others have mentioned artists or posted links to songs to demonstrate the variety and quality of music on the folk scene today - there may be artists others haven't come across so it also serves to bring people's attention to them and explore further. So it does serve some purpose I believe

Your idea of critiquing songs is an interesting one but I would feel a little uncomfortable opening a contemporary song writer's song to public and anonymous criticism. I have written many CD and live reviews in the past for magazines and websites but at least the musicians in question knew who I was (to my cost occasionally!) Also your idea of what makes a great song is not likely to be the same as mine!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:26 AM

I don't find lists of favourites boring or unproductive. I like it if others enjoy the same stuff I do, and it can lead me to something new.

Such as Imagined Village's version of Tam Lin. Thank you for that, Joe.

It might also be argued, with respect, that being aggressive and being enthusiastic are not incompatible.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:37 AM

More I see of Imagined Village the more I like them.

Boyes, of course. Along with Harker one of the more lively and interesting writers about folk. Cannot say I agree with everything they say (not much more likely to sympathise with everything from a Trot than with everything from the old school communists like Lloyd and MacColl and their latter day apologists), but both are interesting and write well.

So thanks again for the link, Joe.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:44 AM

I have been looking at this, which might be helpful to others:

http://mtstcil.org/skills/assert-5.html

And this

Your Communication Style
What do you know about your habitual communication style? Are you prone to aggressiveness, assertiveness, or passivity? Here are some questions you can ask yourself:

Do I seek out other people's opinions, or just share my own?
Am I upset if others don't agree with me?
Do I talk over people or interrupt frequently?
Do I check-in with people to see if they're comfortable, or do I force my own agenda?
Do I put people down?
Do I know how to stand up for myself?
Do I know how to disagree without being disagreeable?
Do I know how to get my needs met without violating the needs of others?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:45 AM

Fully expecting to be put down as patronising, not following own advice etc etc by the way.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:49 AM

"Ok maybe your words came across more aggressively than you meant"
My words came over as aggressively as you chose to interpret them Joe They contained no aggression, unless you feel that challenging what you say is aggressive
I don't "consider folk" (there goes that dishonesty again) anything - I accept the identification of folk that hes existed for over a century and a half
You, on the other hand, have been totally unable to agree on, let alone put forward an alternative
That has remained the case since these arguments began

Hidden Village is probably the worst example of singing a ballad as you could have mentioned, their "arrangements" get in the way of every narrative piece they attempt
Anybody who has ever attempted to sing, or listen to a long ballads (you have admitted you head for the bar when on comes up), knows tha dealing with any long narrative piece effectively demands getting from A to Z in the most efficient and direct way possible, no unnecessary "arrangements", no cluttering accompaniments, no unnecessary gaps - just pure narrative storytelling
When the Electric Groups tackled ballads they jettisoned the narrative and made them into piueces of electric music which you either liked or disliked - they ceased to be ballads
I didn't like them but, so what, that's my taste ?
One of the worst radio programmes (and lost opportunities) on the ballads was Maddie Prior's 'In Praise of Ballads' - two hours of air time, completely wasted on promoting good songs badly interpreted y someone I thought knew better
Ballads are the high watermark of our tradition, the oldest surviving exasmpl;les of musical folk storytelling which, at their best, rival the best of formal art
That some people don't like them - fine a hell of a lot of people find Shakespeare boring rubbish
If you are going to call yourself "folk" you need at least to pop one in your mouth and give it a try
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:59 AM

I didn't think it would be up your street Jim

But then some of the many fans of Benjamin Zephaniah might have heard that and thought 'That's interesting' and gone on to discover more and sought out more traditional renditions of that song and others

Don't worry I have sat through many long ballads - even enjoyed a few - it's just that usually they have been badly or tediously sung by some self indulgent singer whose opinion of their own ability doesn't match reality.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:01 AM

Just as an aside Manchester Rambler has just been played on Radio 3 and they mentioned the Melody is a slight variant of a movement from a Haydn chamber piece (quartet or quintet can't remember which)

I never knew that!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:04 AM

I'll restate what I, and I think many others here, consider to be folk later. Off for a walk now.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:08 AM

Agree that getting to the end of long narrative pieces asap often the best approach.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:15 AM

Sorry Jim but you are just too far out of touch. You are a leading expert on source singers, the early revival and the critics group but you stopped there. Asking you to comment on the current state of folk music in the UK is like asking Brian Cox to comment on Yorkshire Longsword dances. Until you begin to learn what is actually happening by listening to what people in the know are saying your condemnation of today's folk scene is groundless.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:42 AM

Does it matter surely he's allowed to express his opinion?

He doesn't like the way folk clubs are going. fair enough. He's given you his reasons, at length.

I'm not keen on the present situation either. You DO get the impression when MacColl, Lomax, tc were getting their shit together in the 1950's - they were outlaws, working class intellectuals, bohemians in duffle coats. Not a pot to piss in, but doing their thing. they had something of Tony Hancock's Rebel about them.

The present lot fit so easily into BBC4, the Jools Holland programme -its so bloody middle class. Too tasteful by half. Theres no real interface with the plebs, which is where the music came from. Talking about the Village Dwellers here - not the folk clubs.

BUT

the folk clubs revere the posh boys , rather than the source singers. being madern people - they won't do the music like the source singers, if they ever connect with it. And i think Jim will find that hard to get.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM

"Sorry Jim but you are just too far out of touch."
Another mantra Dave and please do not try to patronise me
I am the leading expert on nothing
You are digging your own graves by telling me what's going on in the revival
Seperatuing the Folk club scene from "source singers" as you have just done is further evidence that today's folk scene has s.f.a. to do with folk music and is yet another self-driven nail in the coffin that is your arguments
I'll never forgive the lot of you for driving Walter Pardon onto another thread, which has been closed, making a major source singer a no-go area   
I don't even have to search the web any more

"I didn't think it would be up your street Jim"
I didn't say it wasn't ad I'be been a fan of Benjamin Zephaniah's poetry since he first appeared on the scene - even have some of it in collection-I saw him live once in East London
I find that particular take on Tam Linn no relation to the real thing (no harm in that, but we are talking about folk renditions, I thought) and the following dtagged out incomprehensible nonsense which extends the pice to over eight minutes I find mind-numbing
The best phrase I have ever heard is "the clean, clear sound of the tradition" - nothing of that there

Hope you enkjoy your walk - wish I could go on one now but the roads here are too narrow and have no paements, making them as dangerous as trying to discuss folk song with people who don't seem to like it very much :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM

What I would like is this, for people to look at the online videos of Hidden Village's performance and 'read' them, ie interpret them.

What messages can we take from it about orthodox views of

a what folk is

b who can/should sing/play UK folk songs

c what 'folk' elements in modern culture are there that have resources to offer

and any other topics suggested.

Maybe via discussions of such questions we might focus in on what is healthy within the UK folk scene.

I for one would not wish to return to times when the Stalinist hard left either did or claimed it did, or wished it did dominate 'folk' and the discourses surrounding it. Because the world has moved on.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:48 AM

Of course everyone is allowed an opinion, Al, and I am allowed to point out that the opinion is built on ignorance of the facts. I wouldn't dream of telling Jim that 1960s folk clubs were shit because I did not start going until the late 70s. I find it risible when someone who has not been in a folk club for 30 years tries to tell us that they are crap.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 08:08 AM

I have just noticed that soft-rock Neil Young is now being argued by self acclaimed researchers as 'folk'
The term has now become gibberish and meaningless - people are now openly sing the Folk scene as a dumping ground they happen to like
May god have mercy on the soul of folk song in Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM

Seeing the Folk scene - of course
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 09:35 AM

Neil Young was never Folk nor was he ever a "soft" rocker. One need only listen to His Cinnamon Girl or his Rockin In The Free World album to realize that.
It should be noted that the thread on Neil Young did not state that he was part of the folk process, it ASKED if people thought he was.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM

More "Ding, ding, I'm o the bus" I'm afraid Ron

Not sure what you mean Jim ~ this comment is not by any means an adverse comment~ a straight fact as to where folk music trad and other takes place my neck of the woods

Ray [Ron]

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 10:35 AM

" this comment is not by any means an adverse comment~"
Does "I'm all right Jack" make it any clearer Ron
Both were common in Liverpool when I was growing up
Claiming your club is doing fine is meaningless if the rest of the scene is crumbling, as it appears to be
We're now down to Neil Young being on the edges of folk song according to the other thread, which, as I see it, makes nonsense of the term
As far as I'm concerned, the acid test of what is suitable for a folk club by standing your claim to, say, Banks of the Nile, or Van Dieman Land or Lord Gregory..... and seeing if they relate to your song - if they don't, then they are no what you claim they are

"Neil Young was never Folk nor was he ever a "soft" rocker. "
I agree with you on the first and am happy to be guided by you on the second HiLo
Not my field of expertise
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM

As Jim seems to fighting battles on many fronts I think it only fair to lessen his load. We know that he only listens to anyone confirming his view of the current state of folk music. The rest of us, while being in the majority, he believes are delusional. I know we are not and so do many others. I am going to ignore any further comparisons with "the good old days" and I suggest that if we all do the same, the thread will not only stay open but may begin to be interesting again. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:13 AM

modern songwriters in the folk idiom have a LOT to say about peoples' present situation in all its contexts & it would seem not unreasonable to allow these songs into folk clubs, that is not to exclude Child ballads, love songs or anonymous work songs from the past.

What's the problem here?- songs by Tom Paxton, Leon Rosselson et al were welcome enough in most of the 60s clubs, why not now? Are we really following the current trend towards extremism in music as well as politics?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:15 AM

Dave wrote: -
The rest of us, while being in the majority, he believes are delusional. I know we are not and so do many others. I am going to ignore any further comparisons with "the good old days" and I suggest that if we all do the same, the thread will not only stay open but may begin to be interesting again. Thanks in advance.


Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:16 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the acid test of what is suitable for a folk club by standing your claim to, say, Banks of the Nile, or Van Dieman Land or Lord Gregory..... and seeing if they relate to your song - if they don't, then they are no what you claim they are
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:12 PM

'Of course everyone is allowed an opinion, Al, and I am allowed to point out that the opinion is built on ignorance of the facts.'

well they keep saying the same about my ideas about Brexit. You can't help the feelings that have been creeping up on you for forty years or so. it would be nice to agree with everyone about everything, but they're funny things opinions.

i think i know by now what jim thinks of folk clubs, still i'm going to one tonight, and tomorrow night.

i mean ask yourself, would you rather have a mudcatter who was always banging on about his love for neil Young's version of Tam Linn?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM

I have discovered an extra 3 live music sessions in Skipton! 1 on Friday night and 2 on Sunday afternoon. One of the Sunday ones is not on every week but is very folk based. Dunno what the other is but I look forward to finding out. The Friday night one is advertised as "all the amazing talent from Skipton and the surrounding dales". Once the kitchen is finished and the Mrs is mended, I'm there :-)

Watch this space...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM

Tam Lin take a look at my life
I'm such bore but there's so much more...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM

Enjoyable walk along the river north of York then the major and slightly painful task of shaving my beard off now complete

I'll now state what my interpretation of 'folk' is in the context of this thread. Jim keeps asking people to define it as they see it. I'm sure I have stated something along the lines of this somewhere before. I definitely don't want this to turn into a what is folk thread!

I consider folk to be music and song generally (but certainly not always) made by people using acoustic instruments (or their voice alone).The songs tend to be story songs or songs of protest, both from 'traditional' sources or composed. I find it harder to define the music alone other than knowing it when I hear it! I won't even try to describe folk dance but again I know what it is when I see it.

I know this is a broader definition than some would accept but it is what I have understood as folk for 43 years now and it is not going to change no matter what anyone tries to tell me

An important point too is that words change their meanings, or mean different things to different people. I am an orchestral music enthusiast so I know that 'classical' music is music from a specific time period (Mozart & Haydn are two of its main composers). However if I was discussing music with someone I would tend initially to say I like classical music - even though in reality it is the type of music I like the least (I can't abide Mozart's music with a few exceptions!). I prefer romantic, post romantic, neo classical, modernist, socialist realist, and minimalist music but everyone understands the term 'classical'.

In the same way I say I like folk music without going into detail on what type of folk music I like - traditional, contemporary, alt - folk, nu-folk, folk rock, folk electronica. I see no problem at all in describing all these music sub genres under the broad genre of folk. 'Classical' music hasn't suffered from being an inclusive term so I don't see why folk should.

Anyway back to the current state of the folk scene - in the broad meaning I set out above........

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:46 PM

Totally agree with crumbly by the way

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:47 PM

Tam Lin!
Totally engrossing when it is performed by a master.*
Two very different performances stand in my memory as being utterly gripping throughout. Compelling even though very long. The two are by Mike Waterson and by Pete Morton.
Mike's version is available on Youtube at https://youtu.be/N4Nd1H_t3iQ
Sadly, the 31 verses of Pete's version is not freely available on the internet, as far as I can see, but it is on his great album Frivolous Love.
I've just listened to them both again and was thrilled all over again. Thanks to whoever introduced this ballad to the thread.
Of course, my admiration for these two would just be my personal opinion. If anyone can come with any others quite in the class of these, I would be interested to listen to them.


* Though it can be pretty awful when it sung by a lesser singer.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:59 PM

I assume that is your own definition Joe and it can't be accessed anywhere else ?
That makes it a personal opinion rather than a definition and therefore unworkable, except for you
I didn't think you could do that with definitions - maybe wrong of course
Taken uncritically, your opinion would apply to many/nost genres of song/poetry, which means we would have to throw all the previous work away and accept your "opinion"
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 01:03 PM

Hence my explanation that it is the description of folk I envisaged to be applied to this thread Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM

Basically yours is the Humpty Dumpty Definition Joe "Folk Music is whatever I say it is"
Unfortunately, life, or language, isn't like that - not if we are going to communicate with one another
This discussion involves a minute handful of people, jut as the club scene in general represents a larger minority of people who are and have been involved in folk music in the past
The vast majority walked away from the scene because it ceased to live put to its description
THat doesn't mean they just forgot everything they learned or stopped liking folk music
So whichever way you cut it, as much as people bluster about being in the majority, you and yours are very much the opposite
The sad tng is that you have driven away far, far more than you have ben able to attract to your..... whatever you call it
The old crowd has suffered from the takeover and the future of folk music (as documented) has been put into jeopardy
I think Walterr Pardon's being driven to another thread that has now been closed symbolises the position perfectly
THe sgggestion that Walter's position be formalised has been made in the form of creating a permathread where all source singers be kept out of harms way so they don't clutter tp discussions on today's scene
These are the fact that people refuse even to discuss, let alone, do something about
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM

You have your viewpoint on the reason for the reduction in the number of the clubs Jim - I and others have ours. We are never going to prove who is correct.

I suspect one of the key reasons is that most people with such a narrow view of the music have now sadly died out.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 02:26 PM

You're right from your side
I'm right from mine

Bob Dylan's One too many mornings

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 02:40 PM

Ah but is it folk, Al ;-)

We've had some largely positive and informative posts from a few parts of the UK commenting on how things are going in those areas. It would be good to see a few more from other locations.

I'd also be interested to hear of emerging artists who are making an impression

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM

"You have your viewpoint on the reason for the reduction in the number of the clubs Jim "
We really have been hear before Joe
I was there and saw the clubs vanish one by one and saw the nation-wide debate as they did
I still have the magazines that the arguments took place in
All I have seen is eccusses that shuffle tound the facts that the standards plummeted and folk clubs stopped catering for those interested in folk song
That is not only documented but it is logical considering nobody can drum up an agreed definition to replace the one we used
Would you describe Jazz or blues "narrow" / if not why should "folk" be, or isn't it worthy of an exclusive identity ?
Folk song is probably as well researched and documented as any other music
Far more people adhere to that researched identity world-wide than those who adopt the "Nobody Knows" stance
"Folk" remains an internationally agreed definition and it applies to all the genres - music, dance, lore, tales.... (are yuou going to decide to redefine them whe it suits you ?
Why on erth sould fok be described as "narrow" other than by those who don't understand it ?
Shanties, love songs, big ballads, children's songs, football chants, work songs...... narrow my arseum !!!
And that doesn't tak4 into consideration the thousands of newly made songs that were made using folk forms that were ain inttegral part of the old scene

One of the things you peole continue to refuse to address if the cultural implications of jettisoning the term folk
It was choses tooo recognise the creative input o working people - farmers, factory workers, sailors, solduiers...'ordinary' people
Up to that acknowlegement, thos people were considered to have created nothing (a bit of scrimshw and some knitting pattern, maybe)
Are you really happy you see them returned to being culturally non-creative ?
Jim