The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM

The brick wall we are all banging our heads against ain't never gonna fall, so why bother even trying? Not a fragment of mortar has fallen, nor is it likely to.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 02:56 PM

"The brick wall we are all banging our heads against ain't never gonna fall,"
Not without rational argument it aint Steve"
Any offers ?

"Bob Dylan's One too many mornings"
"It's all over now Baby Blue"
Bobby Dylan, when he decided that folk songs wasn't profitable enough to bother his arse about
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

Or just maybe he was pissed off with all the hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:01 PM

Fair enough Steve. From now on I ask everyone (including myself!) to focus on the thread title

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:12 PM

Back to the brick wall then! Bye!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:32 PM

Please stick around Steve. Appreciate your knowledge of the Yorkshire scene and the hard work you do with Yorkshire Garland. That work is very relevant to today's scene and a great resource for singers

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: RTim
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:34 PM

It seems to me that singers chose to sing songs they like……not because of who wrote them…and that only the current clubs are the places available for them to sing those songs…be they called “Folk” clubs or open mikes or sing arounds….
If – as some claim – “Folk Songs” are only those written by “ordinary people” who we do not know…..then I see no difference between a song written by someone 100 years or more ago than one heard last week for the first time….

I personally tend to sing mainly “Folk” songs, but I am not against singing a song I hear and like, and yes – I could just sing it at home to myself…but generally singers want to be heard by others…so we find our venues as above.

I do agree that there are less of these venues today than there were when I started singing in public in the 1960’s…why this is – I really can only guess at this – but I DO NOT think it is because of the type of songs that singers chose to sing….It is IMO because there are less places available to run events and general economic reasons…..and Yes – The young not being as involved.

This situation is similar in the Morris Dance world…..where ironically, there are More teams but less dancers – with more people dancing with multiple teams.

Whatever happens in the future, I honestly believe that NEITHER Song venues nor Morris teams will totally disappear….
The last time I looked, there are still a lot of Folk Festivals being organised every year in the UK....that maybe where most people go now?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:41 PM

The song and music sessions I have attended at festivals in recent years have certainly been busy Tim

I like what they do at Shrewsbury - and possibly other festivals. They have downloadable tune books for people to use in advance of the festival so that they can get a head start at the sessions

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:43 PM

I should have mentioned Ray in my comment on Yorkshire Garland too

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:43 PM

So,

We have myself, involved in folk music for 60 plus years as a singer/musician, club organiser, festival organiser (a bit) regular attender of sessions, folk clubs and festivals for much of that time.

We have Ray Pagett, who ran a folk club for decades and still attends folk clubs, sessions and festivals.

We have Steve Gardham, who I know attends, folk clubs, sessions and festival and has worked for years collating folk songs, specifically from Yorkshire.

We had Dave the Gnome, who plays, sings and attends folk clubs, sessions and festivals.

We have Joe G who attends folk clubs, sessions and festivals.

We have Jack Campin who attends folk clubs, sessions and festivals.

We have Big Al, Pseudonymous, Steve Smith, Hilo, Vic Smith and Crumbly.

All these people have attended folk clubs, sessions and festivals (mainly in the UK) over the last three or four decades.

Then we have Jim Carroll, who by his own admission has not set foot in a folk club in years and in the UK for decades yet pontificates as if he was familiar with them.

So ............

who would you trust to tell you the current state of folk music in the UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM

Denigrating knitting. How very dare they?

Which just reminds me how very noticeable to absence of women is from that list of working people. I'll mention this because I don't suppose anybody else will.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM

My sincere apologies to those good people I did'nt mention!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:46 PM

My sincere aplogies to those people I didn't mention!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:51 PM

Okay, Joe
Here's a suggestion, although I strongly suspect that most of the posters here are from Yorkshire, there is more than enough evidence already expressed that the folk scene in the UK is very healthy. The folk club is only one of many types of performance arenas: Why don't we list our areas here and say what goes on in our area and actually present the hard evidence that no-one can dispute. I know for a fact that York, Sheffield and Hull and surrounding hinterlands are very well represented in many ways. Vic will have plenty to say about the south coast, Brian, the Pennine area; and also the pros can chip in about what they are seeing, although they don't always get to see all that goes on in an area if they only get into the folk club or arts centre.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:57 PM

Grand idea Steve.

Whitby a small toewn in North Yorkshire.

Monday one session
Tuesday one session (Elsinore, very good)
Wednesday one session
Thursday two session one in a folk club that has been running for years
Friday one session
Saturday ......... don't know, I don't go out most Saturdays
Sunday one session.

Sounds pretty healthy to me !

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:01 PM

Good idea Steve. Here for starters is the Filofolk list from Tykes News covering West and part of North Yorkshire. I'd add that there is more going on than is shown here - especially in terms of open mics where a mixture of music is performed including folk

Filo Folk

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:18 PM

Before someone picks me up on it the Filofolk list does include some events and venues in the wider Yorkshire area but the focus is on the more specific area I mentioned in original post. Of course as with any such list the accuracy depends on venue and club organisers keeping it up to date.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:19 PM

And when the discussion is framed in terms of unzipping and willy waving, women almost by definition are treated as if excluded. This is the 21st century: how much of the failure of the 2nd folk revival was due to it not adequately addressing 50% of its targets?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:20 PM

i think that the scene has changed considerably , i made this remark to Martin Carthy when we were both attending a festival, he agreed whole heartedly.
I think it is foolish to pretend because there are a lot of listings in a local folk magazine, that all is well., on the other hand Iam surprised by the resilience of the uk folk scene, i moved to ireland in 1990, i thought the uk folk scene was going to downturn quicker than it has, i am pleased it still appears to be strong on teeside and the north east
but other parts of the country close to london my impression is a very different one, of course my experience is limited, however i have been involved on the scene since 1967, personally my best recent experiences have been herga club , birmingham trad , welly club. but i would like to thank all the organisers over the years who gave me the opportunity to perform, vic smith was one who has contributed to this thread

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:21 PM

ON the rebuttal that there was no actual waving involved I plead dramatic licence and alliteration.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:23 PM

A quick sufftie through those comes to 144 in those parts of Yorkshire alone.

Forgive me, if I am incorrect, but that is slightly more than Wiki lists for the entire country.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:30 PM

Steve.
I have already given an account of some aspects of the healthy state of folk song and dance activities in my post on 03 Nov 19 - 12:39 PM so rather than repeat that, could suggest that anyone interested has a look at the Facebook page for events in the Sussex area? It is at https://www.facebook.com/groups/folkdiary/ and has around 600 members.
I have just checked and counted 29 events in the county this week and I know that this is not a comprehensive list.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:38 PM

Yes Raggy - in the magazine I counted 200 so even allowing for some attrition there's a healthy number

Thanks Dick - I agree that one can't make specific judgements from the listing of venues but it might help to give an indication of where areas seem reasonably healthy and where they might not be. Like you I feared for the folk scene in the 90s but then washeartened by the number of young people entering the scene. As an example The Young Un's reinvigorated the scene on Teesside and particularly Hartlepool

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:42 PM

.....and then of course the Young 'Uns developed one of the finest folk groups in the country with Sean Cooney's superb songs charting some of the history of their home area.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:46 PM

Hi Joe, I was referring to sing and music only.

The Dance section I deliberately overlooked so a certain party would not have ammunition to pontificate further.

But of course he knows best.

Sit back and wait for the flack!!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:51 PM

Ah I see I included dance. Glad I can still count!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:23 PM

I didn't feel well enough to go my favourite folk club tonite. Its a freezing cold night, and come the hour I didn't feel like carrying my guitar case. Heart condition and all.

So here I am. defending my beautiful folk club in Wimborne against venomous attack.

One could I suppose attack with equal and opposite venom.

How dare you call folk music some load of garbage doggerel that is unintelligible to the broad mass of English people . The fucking wombles (never mind Bob Dylan) have more connection with English folk music.

And just because a gang of middle class bores have come up with definition that coincides with your view doesn't make it even sensible. Its like that surrealistic picture with the train of a train heading into a mantel piece at a cocktail party. Folk music without folk is nonsense. It must connect, and it must be the mode of expression, WE choose. No one else.

However what good would such bitterness like that do?

Take Bob's word for it

You're right from your side, and I am certainly right from mine, with quite as much certainty as you.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:29 PM

Been at and been on it. Guilty as charged by Raggytash. Also been 'collected'.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

Have I missed something Al or was this a reply to a comment earlier?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:34 PM

And I have just remembered (though it gave me no end of a buzz at the time) when we were on recently, they yelled 'more' but could not have it as next act had to go on, and the Landlord said 'They loved it.'

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:39 PM

I know several of us have already put up on this thread plenty of evidence to the health of the scene in our own areas, but it has been ignored by the naysayer, so nothing wrong with repeating it. Just keep cutting and pasting. It might eventually cover the wall.

With all due respect, Dick, you are performing in folk clubs and similar. You are very likely missing all the sessions, singarounds events just for local artists like our free concerts etc. You don't mention the festivals either. Yes some are closing due to the economic situation but that says nothing about the type of music or what is being performed. (Surely this doesn't need explanation!)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:13 PM

We have done various 'benefit' gigs too. Local community stuff and in support of coaches to national demos.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:20 PM

ANd I will also say, in view of some of the more scurrilous rumours spread about me on Mudcat, that I was out on the streets campaigning against Tommy Robinson and his ilk, and so far from being as has been suggested is possible a BNP member, I have had hate stickers from them posted all over my house. I do hope Joe Offer leaves this up, as there are one or two people who I really believe might benefit from considering how I have contributed to 'folk music' in this country.
Anonymously or not.
Must kick this Rioja habit.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM

Yes, Sue, that's another aspect of the modern folk scene that gets little mention. Back in Jim's day the majority of the folk scene was quite incestuous in that it took place in private pub room with little contact with the general public. Nowadays we try to take music into all sorts of institutions and out onto the streets to engage the general public, and not just passively. We have been into schools, taught them folk songs and had the kids perform at our festival, and many other similar events. I know Whitby Festival puts on all sorts of events like this and it's still going strong.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

Come on, let's cover the wall!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

Glad to hear it re campaigning against TR

I'm having a few days break from the beer and wine as had a heavy couple of weeks and diabetes check due soon. Though got friends coming at the weekend so........

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

FOr 'rumours' read ' suggestions'/'hints' whatever.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:33 PM

and I still don't rate Walter Pardon much.
So there!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:36 PM

and don't get me started on A L Lloyd's racist/racialist comments on why the Maid of Australia wan't heard much is Australia! "Miscegenation".What sort of language is that from a Pommie who went over there to work on a ranch?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:37 PM

Step Back From The Computer (and the Rioja ;-) )

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 07:20 PM

This is what goes on in my neck of the woods

http://www.pyramidfolk.info/

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 07:27 PM

Thanks - looks reasonably healthy

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:54 AM

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM

Yes, Sue, that's another aspect of the modern folk scene that gets little mention. Back in Jim's day the majority of the folk scene was quite incestuous in that it took place in private pub room with little contact with the general public. Nowadays we try to take music into all sorts of institutions and out onto the streets to engage the general public, and not just passively. We have been into schools, taught them folk songs and had the kids perform at our festival, and many other similar events. I know Whitby Festival puts on all sorts of events like this and it's still going strong."
this comment is not entirely accurate, folk song was being sung and folk dance in primary schools at th4e beginning of the folk revival, right in to the middle sixties. folk festivals have been engaging the public with folk dance[morris dance sword dance since the sixties and in the case of sidmouth folk festival even earlier,so you are painting a false picture, Steve?
what is the point of a trolling comment like back in jims day?
anyway Iwas busking and putiing folk music on the streets during lancaster maritime festival in 1992, that was over26 years ago, so to give this impression you are doing something new is just squit

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:56 AM

Further more i also did musaic in schools on occasions in the 80s, you are not doing anything that has not been done 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 02:11 AM

I can also remember music sessions held in pubs, that were not in seperate rooms plus folk clubs held in pubs [the capital in london] was one that comes to mind, plus some in sussex.. the laughing fish at isfield? that was the eighties or nineties, vic and tina smith ran that to suggest it is something new is just a joke,Ican remember both irish tune sessions english tune sessions, english song sessions in pubs[ withh john and katie howson that were not in seperate rooms.
all back in the 1980s and 1990s] then there was travelling folk starte in 1989
The Travelling Folk (TTF) is a travelling folk club for West Kent and East Sussex. We don't meet regularly in one venue but gather in pre-selected pubs around the area on the first and third Thursdays of each month to enjoy ourselves and to bring folk music to those who may not have had the opportunity of experiencing a live folk session before. Steve Gardham is giving a wrong impression

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 02:16 AM

correction travelling folk was started in 1983[that was back[in jims day]36 fecking years ago steve, and you claim to be doing something new. please stop trying to troll jim carroll

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 03:40 AM

"Or just maybe he was pissed off with all the hypocrisy."
You need to read Dylan's biographies - or maybe Joanie Baezs's - the lady he ruthlessly used as a stairway to stardom and threw away when he got their
Dylan was a careerist user as distinct from the people who dedicated their lives to folk music - he couldn't even be arsed to go to The South to support the Freedom Riders he built his career singing about - how's that for hypocrisy
The stench of hypocrisy rises every time Bobby Believers make an issue of MacColl's name change (adopted to avoid prison) while totally ignoring that their own flavour of the month did exactly the same to boost his career

I'm going to avoid the "aren't we doing well" nonsense - everything I have to say has been said, as has these fallacious claims
The numbers in their low hundred of clubs says how well they are doing and the rush for the internet and fame and fortune is only proof that the scene has been ripped from its roots and that a scramble for stardom has replaced a love of folk song proper
Neil Young - for crying out loud, and this from self styled folk academics as well as supposed lovers of folk music!!!

Dave's sneering reference to 'the good old days' coupled with a suggestion taht they be "ignored" really does make me howl, given the situation
One of the unsung heroes on this forum (CJB - Chris) has given more than enough proof of how good those days where with the many hundreds of radio programmes he has dug up and made available, from Bert Lloyd's classics to the hundred or so 'Folkweave' or 'Folk on Two' and many many more, all catering for every taste and description of folk song and beyond, that were common way back then   
All gone, and if Dave gets his way, safely forgotten

I watched with stunned pleasure last night, an hour long programme on Irish Television covering the importance of folk song in Irish 20th century history - it was the first of four
The subject was basically about the songs but was treated as a serious historical documentary - one traditional music expert (Terry Moylan, the compiler of the magnificent 'The Indignant Muse'
The rest were major journalists, historians, a National Librarian and several politicians
The historical footage was beyond description in its importance
Ireland seems to be embracing it's traditional song and music while England is rejecting it as fast as possible to make room for pop stars and schmaltz

On MacColl's 100th anniversary, Pat and I tentatively approached an Irish radio station, via a friend and asked would they be prepared to do perhaps a half hour dedication
Our producer friend was dragged in with both hands and given two, hour long programmes, complete with expenses for us to visit and interview Peggy Seeger for three days in Oxford

Pat and I have now done around a dozen radio Preogrammes on folk song on Irish radio nd two television features
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that they might be interested in doing ono on Walter Pardon -
The chances of England doing one are minimal at present and, if he continues to be treated with the disregard he has been on this forum, they will never find a spot for him on English radio unless we can produce him singing soft rock and Country and Western

If folkies don't cherish their cultural folk wealth, I can't see how anybody else will
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 03:59 AM

"incestuous"
Incestuous my arse Steve

We took our songs to the people face to face in open to the public clubs, schools Trades Unions and even theatres like the national
We also invited and helped those who wished sing themselves
Pat and I did over fifty public talks inside and ouside the folk scene - libraries colleges and local history groups mainly

One of the most ground breaking projects was when Argo Records co-operated with MacColl Seeger, The Critics, Lloyd, Tom Paley and other singers, along with some of Britain's finest actors like Michael Horden, and Timothy West to produce two magnificent series of Poetry and Folksong for schoolchildren, "Poetry and Song" (14 LPs) and Voices (8 LPs)
Somewhat different from the 'Vanity Publishing' approach of having to pay too let people know how talented you are or (in many cases) aren't

Putting your songs on little screens rather than facing your listeners (as folk song was always about) don't come more incestuous
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:22 AM

My interpretation of jims posts and his point is that there is not great interest in the roots of the music, eg pseudonymous does not care for walter pardon, so what?in fact pseud seems intent on attacking Walter and attacking Jims scholarship.psued seems to have an agenda
if in fact it is true that there is not much interest in the roots of tradtional music, this is not imo healthy.
irish trad musicians seem interested in the roots of their music, and in some cases eg john and katie howson[ english people connected to the folk revival] seem interested in the roots of sliabh luchra music.
pseuds writing style reminds me of guest some bloke

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:52 AM

I think it is accepted that Sharpe's work was used in education, both here and in the US. That was one of his aims, as I understand it. We did country dancing in school (I was born in the 50s) and I now suppose that Sharpe and then Revivalists may have been among the causes of this.