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The current state of folk music in UK
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM I agree, Lynn. Especially the last bit. Of course there are those who will argue that it is what you do and only a specific list of songs (of which there are many) can be classed as folk songs. Meaning of course that there can never be any new folk songs. They also seem to argue that some people can never perform folk songs and if, for instance, Roger Daltry or Kylie Minogue or Rod Stewart turned up at a folk club and sang Matty Groves unaccompanied it would not be folk either. I suspect some people are just contrary ;-) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:39 AM I look at folk music this way - what we now consider 'folk song' was the pop song of its' day just as songs from Buddy Holly, Elvis, Joy Division etc. will, in time, become 'folk songs'. Of course, 'it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it....' plays a role. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:37 AM pfr. Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong. Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:29 AM PUNK FOLK ROCKER, But then I thought, nah.. as much as we all love him.. Dick aint in a mood for classic rock n pop..." your post is taking the discussion in a personal direction, pack it up, and debate the point about hobgoblin letting people know their sales[ even though it will never happen] |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM What I suspect Hobgoblin's sales figures would show: less general purpose guitars and more specialized ones, less specialized and expensive melody instruments (partly because people buy them from specialist dealers now), and a LOT more ukuleles. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM first of all hobgoblin are a private company ,of course they will not open their accounts to you, secondly as i said, new sales of folk instruments are not supportive evidence of the health of the uk folk scene or the amount of people playing instruments because they do not record the amount of existing instruments being played, therfore that would not be overall evidence. , i replied to you politely. please keep it civil ,because, my post destroys your argument it does not make it a grumpy post. the amount of beginners playing instruments would have to exclude people playing violins or other instruments for classical music,or pop jazz or brass band music , even if hobgoblin and other dealers were willing so your idea it would involve so much paperwork to just record instruments for folk use only , it becomes a non starter, your idea is flawed in more ways than one[ and that is a polite statement] |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:28 PM I'm too friendly.. My first response was to post the lyrics to the Frankie Avalon song "Why".. "I'll never let you go Why? Because I love you I'll always love you so Why? Because you love me No broken hearts for us 'Cause we love each other And with our faith and trust There could be no other Why? 'Cause I love you Why? 'Cause you love me I think you're awfully sweet Why? Because I love you You say I'm your special treat Why? Because you love me We found the perfect love Yes, a love that's yours and mine I love you and you love me All the time Yes, I love you (I'll always love you so) (Why? Because you love me) Yes, you love me We found the perfect love Yes, a love that's yours and mine I love you and you love me I love you and you love me We'll love each other, dear Forever" But then I thought, nah.. as much as we all love him.. Dick aint in a mood for classic rock n pop... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:16 PM Keep it friendly please folks - we can disagree or argue but try to keep it respectful. I know I haven't on occasion in the past which I regret - and it doesn't help the debate :-) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:06 PM Dick - Why.. because it's bloody obvious supportive evidence... that's why...!!! no matter how much you are grumpily making a meal of refusing to acknowledge this... For instance, how many beginners folk instruments sold per annum might be of particular interest... "if people want elvis or buddy holly why dont they clear off and watch am n ELVIS or buddy holly tribute band" As I said a few posts ago.. It's 2019, not 1959... Though a good rock n roll band does sound like a better night out than a bunch of miserable old folkies... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:28 PM Perhaps a look at Hobgoblin's accounts might give an indication of the health of the UK folk scene...???" Why? how would hobgoblins accounts or any other music dealers accounts do that,for instance many musicians have had the same instruments for years, and also the sales of instruments does not reflect the amount of instruments being played or the health of the uk folk scene, after all some of those imstruments that have been sold in the last year might well be going abroad and not for the use in the uk folk revival at all., and sales within the last year do not reflect accurately the total amount of instruments being played in the UK folk revival. I find it necessary to have places to play and sing folk music where people go to listen to words of songs, much as they might go and listen to classical music or opera , that is why i think it is good to have folk clubs, Jim Carroll has in the past stated that when he goes to folk clubs he expects to hear traditional music but not popsongs and presumably he now no longer wants to go to folk clubs because he believes that he cannot hear the music he wants to hear in them .However he has not given us an indication as to how many he has visited in the uk in the last year. I would state in fairness to Jim that compared to 40 years ago there is now less traditional music played in uk folk clubs and a small to medium increase in buddy holly and pop, that is my experience, other people may have different experiences. if people want elvis or buddy holly why dont they clear off and watch am n ELVIS or buddy holly tribute band |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM Perhaps a look at Hobgoblin's accounts might give an indication of the health of the UK folk scene...??? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Howard Jones Date: 21 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM The clubs used to have a foot in both Ray's camps, usually combining a "professional" guest with unpaid floor singers. I put "professional" in inverted commas because these were not necessarily making a living from it, and could be fairly local singers offered the opportunity of an extended spot. The requirement to entertain the audience tended to encourage at least minimum standards of performance. These days the clubs seem to have polarised and more seem to fall into one or the other camp. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 21 Oct 19 - 12:35 PM Seems perfectly reasonable to me Ray. Both are valued and have equal merit. I prefer the former but also enjoy the latter. Not being a singer or sufficiently proficient at playing an instrument I would rather those who are do the performing - though I will join in on the choruses or refrains. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:55 AM May I perhaps suggest that UK has basically two sides to it: A ~ The Professional side where guests are invited by clubs and promoters to perform in front of a paying audience to entertain B ~ The participatory side where singers and players get together on a regular basis to enjoy the performance of song and music Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM Er best we get back on topic...... :-) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:23 AM You'd be surprised [ or not ] of what you can find out on the internet in the early hours of the morning whilst listening to the sound track music of 1970s Turkish equivalents of "Carry On.." and "Confessions of.." soft core sex comedies... Added bonus, 1970s Turkish actreses are very watchable...... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 21 Oct 19 - 11:10 AM pfr you seem worryingly familiar with the products of the sex toy industry - it's not that quiet down your neck of the woods is it? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:58 AM Jim may or may not be aware that the sex toy industry has a thriving new product line of USB and WI FI devices that transmit and simulate the stimulating touch of a distant 'partner' from any point on the planet connected by the internet... There is potential for such equipment to be modified to keep far-flug folkies in touch with each other...??? For example, such a device could be programmed to blow smoke in your face, spill beer on you, and emit noxious smells, all to your preferred settings in the comfort of your own home... Advanced, more adventurous, users could select a Folk Festival level option... It's a brave new world... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,no Jim Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:29 AM "What do you do when your folk club closes down?" What folk club ? We don't need them. My apologies for the above. I should have said that I - personally - don't need folk clubs. My opinion, my choice, and nobody is going to tell me I'm wrong. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Iains Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:23 AM I know of people who have been subsidised by the British Council to inflict folk on parts of the Middle East and South America. A good gig if you can get it! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:10 AM The British Council piece praises Sam Lee, whose name provoked a lot of hostile commentary on this site when he appeared on a BBC folk prom. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:39 AM Yes Howard, but it still seems self-contradictory to put it at as gently as I can to insist on people participating in the production of music when one has reached a ripe old age and not achieved that oneself, especially as low standards are another reason you give for people not attending. I am afraid Jim's positions have the (for me) uniquely irritating quality of being passionately held to the point where language verging on the abusive is hurled at opposing views and deeply self contradictory. One might sympathise or even agree at times, but the approach at persuasion (if that is indeed what it is, as opposed to wilful cruising for a bruising ), for me at least goes beyond failure. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Howard Jones Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM Participation is important (it certainly is for me) but Jim's insistence on participation would seem to exclude those who go to folk clubs simply to listen to and enjoy the music. In my experience these usually make up the majority of folk club audiences (with the possible exception of singarounds and expressly singers' clubs), significantly outnumbering the floor singers in most cases. It also occurs to me that most other genres have a far lower ratio of active performers to listeners, yet most of these seem to be in a far healthier state than folk, in terms of size of audience and public perception as well as financial sustainability. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:01 AM To interpret my own metaphor (or my use of Jim's) some people are better interpreters and commentators on the music that they listen to in an allegedly passive manner than others. And just listening to more music may not be the way to improve in this area. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:58 AM To use Jim's metaphor (I feel he cannot really object) some people are better wankers than others. And what's all this puritanical/Papistical (take your choice, trying to avoid denomination bias here...) objection to self-pleasuring? Lloyd famously liked dirty songs; are we arguing that the frisson of enjoying this has to be a group activity as opposed to a private one? Hmm. Kinky or what???? :) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:52 AM Also ironic that Jim is insisting on the need to 'actively participate' in folk music when a) as far as I am aware he is not and has never been a musician, and b) when some of the comments he has made on these threads about technical aspects of singing with which he has engaged as a listener have been technically incorrect (and some of the historical glosses provided on songs). So arguably, more and better informed passive listening would have resulted in learning in this particular case. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:47 AM I'm thinking it possible that as Jim is, as he has told us, away from home, he is posting as a guest because he can't or hasn't logged in from whatever device he is using at the moment. I'm also thinking that perhaps he was not fully sobered up before posting some recent contributions. Also that detailed accounts of What Jim did on his holiday in the foreign country where he lives are not the most useful way of forwarding a discussion of the state of folk music in the UK. For me, the use of metaphors like 'cultural masturbation' adds little to the discussion and do have a hint of animosity. But when Jim asks whether 'the songs and music' got here via the internet in the first place, obviously not. However, they did mostly get here via the technologies of the past time, as Jim himself has frequently explained: manuscript and printing, radio, television, tape recordings etc. It seems to me that it would be romanticising, possibly with an underlying ideological bent, to assert that the songs got here because of what people who are now old (including Jim) did in their youth. Also it seems that there is potential conflict between taking this view and claiming that folk music is based in some sort of continuous historical 'oral tradition'. The idea that human sensory experience of the world is ever a purely 'passive' thing seems to me to be at odds with common sense and a great deal of research. ha ha pfr some humour much needed |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM The date in the header data of that British Council paper is May 2012. It tries to cover everything but doesn't do much more than repeat what a few informants say. Okay as far as it goes, but not my idea of research. It also perpetuates the Not Invented Here chauvinism of the British folk scene - there are other ways of doing things which have to some extent been imported from elsewhere (the American "folk camp" and "house concert", the Breton "fest noz") and which don't necessarily need to stay tied to a particular style of music. A lot of British-invented formulas have been failures in the long term, mainly through cohort-based generational exclusiveness. It's well worth looking around to see where things work better. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Iains Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:41 AM Some genuine research. Make of it what you will. (Cannot see a date but definitely post 2011) http://livemusicexchange.org/wp-content/uploads/Investigating-the-health-of-the-UK-folk-club.pdf British folk music has rarely been in more vigorous health than it is today(The British Council)Oct. 2018 https://music.britishcouncil.org/news-and-features/2018-10-15/british-folk-in-the-21st-century |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:50 AM "the music...??? or being within touching and smelling distance of a bunch of the same old folkies you're stuck with week in and week out..." Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but one is dependent on the other None of us same oold folkies would be here without the music)a very specific music) And we wouldn't have that music withoutt a bunch of us same olds hadn't got tgether to share the songs and the knowledge that we had gained from them Do you think the songs and music got here in the first place because people loged into Utube, or read a book or boaught a broadside (as some would claim it did) The thing that makess folk song unique is that is arises afrom shared experiences and aspirations and the desire top record them and pass them on I live in rural Ireland - I think sometimes that people tend to forget how many people remain uncomputered and technology illiterate - certainly very many my age do (my partner Pat crosses herself and hangs up garlic at the sight of a computer screen and she was a skilled administrator of a swish upoholstry firm) It is both arrogant and communal suicide to believe that we don't need the company of one another to be creative human beings This ia almost as depresibng as the suggestion that we don't need folk clubs Sad, sad, sad I take it we have had an attack of cowardly, identity-grabbing trolls - I have come to reagard this as one of the highest comliments to be awarded Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:22 PM The Musicians Union motto used to be [ I hope still is ] "Keep Music Live". As relevant today as ever. When I made a scrap-plywood case for my C melody sax it ended up looking just like a coffin. So I painted on a pair of vampiric hands trying to escape from it and a slogan on the lid: KEEP MUSIC UNDEAD. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:50 PM I tend to agree to a large extent to pfr's general gist re the importance of the internet in discovering folk music (and indeed sharing it which I frequently do via Facebook and occasionally on here) Of course the experiences of listening to, performing or sharing music live are wonderful things (I'm just coming down from an astounding weekend at Musicport!) but they are not the only means of access to folk and nor should they be as that would exclude many people who for whatever reason cannot attendsuch events |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:23 PM "What do you do when your folk club closes down?" What folk club ? We don't need them. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:20 PM I'm assuming that any posts ostensibly by Jim that are not headed "Jim Carroll" sans the hateful "guest" addendum (and I mean it: no-one here should be posting unless registered and signed in, my long-time hobby horse, and sod democracy, and I don't care what you think) is not by Jim. I'm playing safe.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:16 PM What do you do when your internet connection goes down ? It's usually down for a short while so I suffer in silence until it comes back. What do you do when your folk club closes down? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:27 PM How many different GUESTS here at the moment while Jim is temporarily signed out.. Jim - sorry if I've responded to others thinking they are you...??? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:56 PM The Musicians Union motto used to be [ I hope still is ] "Keep Music Live". As relevant today as ever. What do you do when your internet connection goes down ? - or did Jim supply the answer to that above already ? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM Actively participating listeners have been an essential part of musical performance ever since music was invented. In some genres, the performers can expect the audience to know in depth how the music works and express their appreciation - audibly - when something special happens. This is true for Indian classical music, Arabic art and popular music and pretty much every variety of African-American music. It often makes the performance completely unrecordable, since you need to be there and be able to discriminate the music from the reactions to it - but so what? Who needs all their music pickled? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:33 PM How exciting... Folk and their music adapt, evolve, and survive... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM "The internet future offers potentially more and improved possibilities to combine the best connectivity and community of both options..." How sad. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Jon Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:06 PM "I’m not sure what to think about online sessions" (Join in together that is) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Jon Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:05 PM Well pfr, Mudcat did have a spell of live Internet music, starting with Hearme and moving on to PalTalk but I think it fizzled out. At one point, as well as taking it in turn sessions, there were a couple who would do “concerts” that way. Time zones are a bit of a problem with that sort of thing but there were for example someone from UK and another from NZ sometimes getting online at the same time. I’m not sure what to think about online sessions. Even if the speed and absence of lag were there, I might still have doubts. Thinking now, to me, at least in a good session, there are other interactions such as the way one can get caught up in the overall atmosphere, sound and visual clues that might not translate too well over distance. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM Jim - what's most important.. the music...??? or being within touching and smelling distance of a bunch of the same old folkies you're stuck with week in and week out... The internet future offers potentially more and improved possibilities to combine the best connectivity and community of both options... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Observer Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:59 PM "Jim - so singing along and playing instruments whilst listening to recordings, don't count as participation and learning...???" That is little more than cultural masturbation - we never needed clubs for that - we might as well have stayed at home and done it for ourselves. Is that really how you view cultural participation ? You are perfectly describing alienation Excellent observation Mr. Carroll. Brilliant comment, well said indeed!! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:51 PM We come here to discuss music. When we play or participate, it's not through a computer, it's in the physical presence of living people. Bleedin' obvious, I would've thought. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM Well.. I'm keeping both hands on my keyboard whilst I'm here at mudcat... I never thought Jim could be that kinky...!!!??? Btw.. What I type in this thread is two parts serious to one part playing devil's advocate... But the internet will become the most effective communal worldwide folk club long after we're all gone...... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 01:18 PM Anfd performing Dave Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:52 PM If joining in with something from home is cultural masturbation then many people talking about folk music on an internet forum must be a mass debate. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:50 PM Well said, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:44 PM "Jim - so singing along and playing instruments whilst listening to recordings, don't count as participation and learning...???" That is little more than cultural masturbation - we never needed clubs for that - we might as well have stayed at home and done it for ourselves Is that really how you view cultural participation ? You are perfectly describing alienation Humanity is basically gregarious - we have always tended to express ourselved and shared our abilities communally We spent a full day yesterday swapping experiences annd ideas on folk songs with about fifty others - then we adjourned to a pub room and swapped songs till about midnight We enjoyed the company, we value the knowledge we took away from our meeting up, and it's a long time before we'll forget some of the excellent singing we heard We returned to our hotel and were having a last pint in the bar when one of the young women singers we had been listening to joined us - and we spent another hour talking with this fine new singer (soeone who had not long come to singing) We're off for a meal with a similar bunch shortly Beats staying at home and pulling youtr pud any day - or posing yourself on the net in the hope someone will like you Both, I find more than a little sad though I do understand why some people have to do it Jim |
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