The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:12 AM

I think if it is a good song with good lyrics it can cross genre boundaries quite easily. Just my opinion of course. This type of song can never become a folk song of course but, if done in a folk style, I would welcome any good music at my local folk club.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:02 AM

My opinion too Dave.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:47 AM

I've been on the edge of the 'folk' scene for many years & an infrequent visitor to the clubs so can't comment on the subject of the thread- I'M ALSO against all the attempts to define 'what is folk?'- it's really pointless, iMHO
I've played GD melodeon for 55 years, initially for barn dances in NE England, but never had any hangups about folk/pop/ distinctions. It doesn't mean I've forgotton that early exposure to the 'tradition', and songs and tunes picked up in those days are still very much in my repertoire, but mixed with the old 'pop' songs so denigrated by some people, although I've always found folk clubs pretty accepting of this attitude.

I make NO apology for playing & singing my own versions of songs by such as the Everly Brothers, Sam Cooke, Bing Crosby, Charlie Poole, Bonnie Tyler & Dr Hook, alongside more 'trad' stuff. It may not fit the pointless category of 'folk' music but it's very acceptable when I play in pubs, clubs, anniversary & village Christmas parties, where music is an important part of the proceedings.

How can you relate to normal people in a 'fun' Christmas situation WITHOUT playing Jingle Bells, Rudolph or Stop the Cavalry?

the last posts on here have been a vote for tolerance, so maybe there's hope yet?   Forget the hangups & get on with the great enjoyment to be had from the peoples' music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:01 AM

I'M ALSO against all the attempts to define 'what is folk?'- it's really pointless, iMHO
I cannot disagree with you!


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/11/folk-song-in-england-by-steve-roud
"These catchy tunes with their satisfyingly repeating choruses – the correct term is “strophic” – are part of a landscape that is recognisably communal without being nationalistic. And as for the fact that many of them turn out to be as arriviste as Sharp himself, it’s not clear why it should really matter."

The final phrase of the article is key!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:22 AM

If " it's really pointless " to define folk and it doesn't as long as it's good why bother using the word folk ? surely you're just talking about music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:23 AM

Sorry I missed matter.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 07:43 AM

I think discussions of definitions can be interesting, the problems seem to arise for various reasons, including the tendency of such discussions to turn into slanging matches. I think discussion will crop up regularly on forums like this as new people enter and try to get involved; tricky to see how it can be avoided. Even more tricky to keep it reasonably, err reasonable.

Would it be fair to say that there is currently a range of different 'offerings' (can't think of better word just now) in a given area, so eg round here you find blues (a type of folk on some definitions), Irish, open-mike with very broad range of genres, probably some other specialist even non European ethnic/cultural clubs, probably some people attend more than one, some people specialise?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 08:44 AM

How can you relate to normal people in a 'fun' Christmas situation WITHOUT playing Jingle Bells, Rudolph or Stop the Cavalry"
is it normal to like jingle bells? since when?Imake my own assesments on songs based on lyrics and tunes,
for example shortest story, by harry chapin, played acoustic fashion is imo excellent,The Shortest Story
Harry Chapin
I am born today
The Sun burns a promise
In my eye
Mama strikes me
And I draw a breath and cry
Above me a cloud
Slowly tumbles through the sky
I am glad, to be alive
It is my seventh day
I taste the hunger
And I cry
My Brother and sister
Cling to Mama's side
She squeezes her breast
But it has nothing to provide
Someone weeps, I fall asleep
It is twenty days today
Mama does not hold me
Anymore
I open my mouth
But I am to weak to cry
Above me a bird slowly crawls across the sky
Why is there nothing
Now to do but die?
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Harry F. Chapin
The Shortest Story lyrics © Warner Chappell Music, Inc

jungle bells might be popular, that does not necesarrl;y make it good, the problem with that approach, is that the musician can end up play something because it is popular, regardless of quality, jigle bells rudolphmay be popular but imo it is shite. I SING AND PLAY WHAT I LIKE IT IS NOT BASED UPON IT HAVING TO BE POPULAR BUT IS BASED ON MY SUBJECTIVE VIEW OF QUALITY.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF i am playing outside the folk scene i play songs based on how well they are written, that can include popular music and also trad music or folk music. i play for communities in this area and do not find it necessary, to sing what jim advocates and i get well received, but i live in ireland.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 08:50 AM

in response to last post
I think many specialise in Folk, largely of the more traditional variety, open mikes I suspect are not too conducive with traditional unaccompanied folk song and music unless set up that way

The rowdier group folk songs are ok within their setting and audience of course ~

Folk songs and clubs and festivals seem to be ok ~ it depends what your audience are expecting/and are used to probably

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:02 AM

Might i point out that at Christmas when everyone is over indulging in the new religion of consumerism, that throwing in the occasional song like "shortest story" instead of singing escapist songs such as jingle bells, or rudolph,[just because they are popular] might be very effective and make people think of all the unfortunate people at christmas.
I think singers to some extent have a moral duty, to get people to question and think about situations as well as entertain. if we are just going to entertain regardless of content ,god help us .i for one am not going to sing popular songs just because they are popular but either because they say something important, or because i like them.
that is my criteria. singing songs just because they are popular is imo rather like appealing to the lowest common denominator,
jim , i would rather hear you sing the song you sing about jesus christ not being wanted and being a subvrsisve ,and yes, you are talented. but imo you are wasting your talent singing rudolph or jungle bells.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:17 AM

I was reading this thread when an ad for "professional singing waiters" appeared. Not sure quite what folk numbers would work for that. I wonder if there's a niche for Wild-Rover-grams?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:26 AM

Modern folk scholars tell us that is not the origin of a song that defines it as a folk song but the process of change that it undergoes when it is taken up by the folk. So if Jingle Bells has already become Jungle Bells and Jigle Bells as the post at 14 Dec 19 - 08:44 AM suggests, then surely it is well on the way to becoming a folk song.

And before anyone comes back with a heavy response, this post was intended as a seasonal joke. Merry Christmas to all Mudcatters!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:45 AM

Phew we got trough 1954 unscathed ;-)

In response to Ray's comment on popular songs being sung in folk clubs I have no problem with this at all if they are story based or social commentary. For example I'd be happy with The Beatles 'She's Leaving Home' or 'Eleanor Rigby' but perhaps less enthusiastic about Love Me Do or Please Please Me

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:46 AM

'Through' obviously!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:30 AM

There is a fundamental flaw in requiring a "definition" as we have found on this and many other threads.

Some songs and tunes that I and others consider to be folk songs are not considered folk songs by others.

This, I believe, is down to the fact that the definition these people adhere to is quite restrictive and in one or two cases extremely restrictive.

And so we end up having fractious disagreements at times.

Whilst there seems to be a loose concensus among the many people I know on the folk scene the are often differences over particular songs or particular performers.

The important consideration should be that these things shouldn't really matter in the great scheme of things.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:46 AM

Totally agree. It is the music and words that matter not the definition!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:52 AM

1968

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:53 AM

couldn't resist that..

and this is post 1969...


A 50th anniversary...!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:55 AM

post 1970...

50 years on in the future, UK folk will be different but still in quite a good state...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:56 AM

oh it's 1971 now.. glam rock is on it's way...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:08 AM

The ball's in your court Raggytash and Pseudo BTW Pseudo I'm not one of the new people I first posted on Mudcat over 10 years ago and I've been involved with folk music since 1970. I'm not interested in the 1954 definition or Jim Carrolls come to that, but why people on here feel the need to put folk in front of anything they sing. what is YOUR definition. Pseudo's best stab was " offerings " ( hope you've found a better word by now )

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:15 AM

1973.. my favourite year.. this one's mine...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:15 AM

Whatever you think of Jingle Bells & it's not exactly Mozart, people KNOW it & enjoy singing with it & the main plan when I play music is participation. I'm not talking singarounds here, of course, nor am I talking about a Christmas concert- I'd run away very fast from that.

Whatever the merits of Harry Chapin or the Willie Nelson song you like me doing, Dick, neither are likely to suit an anniversary party any more than a Christmas party - you might get away with one such 'thoughtful' item, amid increasing conversation & noise, but neither you nor I would do Jingle Bells in a folk club!

All these definitions sound rather precious to me & I hate that attitude- it's really not necessary.

I infer from your aside that Ireland is different, well I had 20 years there, often playing at community events (most recently Gubbaun, near Blacklion at Christmas & Newbridge Hall, near Dowra, regularly).

The Irish love their own songs and I really don't find much difference back here in Scotland. I played this month for the Garlieston village Christmas party & a 60th anniversary party in Port William & the Scots like their own songs & music just as much as the Irish!
   And they ALL like 'Jingle Bells'......

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:39 AM

So it's now half a century later, since I was a teenager getting into the inspirational singles and LPs
of the early 1970s..
Since then, there's been so much music played and recorded...
good and bad..
So much of it, there's really no need for any more new music ever..
But that's not in our nature to just stop..
More people than ever have the aspiration and tools to create songs and tunes...
Most of it will be derivative and mediocre at best,
but there will be a few brilliant new artists emerging over the next 12 months..

Something positive to look forward to discovering in the predicted gloom of 2020..

There's plenty enough wrong with UK society and the rest of the world, to inspire new 'folk' songs...
Hopefully some will be good enough to bear repeated listening and singing, and become memorable...???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 12:20 PM

Sorry Keith, the ball is NOT in my court. I cannot state that such and such a song is definitely folk music simply because you may disagree.

I cannot define the music as excepted by other people. Their views will, in all probability, be different to mine.

However, I do think most 'folkies' are agreed on some of the songs and tunes that are prescribed by such definitions as the 1954 one, but not 100% of people.

Thus 'definitions' are not useful or constructive in this particular field.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 12:42 PM

Right now I have Richard Strauss's "Friedenstag" on the CD player. Found it on my shelves and realized I'd never listened to it or read the sleeve notes.

It was based on a libretto by Stefan Zweig, who was a Jewish pacifist socialist. Adapted for a performance in Nazi Germany in 1938. Which meant most of the core ideas of the story had to be fudged, and the music manages to be neither triumphantly Nazi nor angrily radical. It is not an inspiring example of artistic moral courage, though some of the music does have something to say regardless.

How long before it's routine for music performances to have Union Jacks on stage? No matter what genre, musicians in Turkey have usually had to play under a national flag and a portrait or bust of Ataturk. You can bet the Tories are going to try the same idea (the portrait would most likely be Churchill).

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 12:56 PM

You do say some very strange things Jack...really a good laugh though.
As for folk in the Uk, it seems to me to be better off than some other places where I have lived. In parts of North America it is illegal to sing in pubs...so folk becomes an in home sort of sing around, which is not bad but it does make it hard for new people to get involved as these events are mostly by invitation only.
   Perhaps the UK is much better off than it realizes.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 01:05 PM

Raggy if there's no definition why call it Folk! It's music! I can understand Jim Bainbridge he plays and sings music he does not define it as Folk.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 01:35 PM

Would advert saying "Folk" that turns out to be Country, or Jazz be acceptable ~ just asking?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 01:46 PM

Ray I've heard all that in Folk Clubs, Festivals and Singer Rounds

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 01:49 PM

Singaround !!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 01:52 PM

Defining the difference between an arse and an elbow is a whole lot easier,
even for the most confused of folkie folks...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:10 PM

Keith
It's not as cut and dried as you are trying to make out. Like most words in our vocabulary it has several different but overlapping meanings and different meanings to different communities. That doesn't stop it from being a useful descriptor. I tend to use it in different ways in different communities I visit. In my research I'm largely happy to use the 54 descriptors but if I'm discussing it with most of my mates who I sing with I know they will largely understand the wider world meanings which have much broader descriptors.

As for 'Jingle Bells' I played it at a gig recently, alongside a whole set of folk songs. Jim is not contemplating singing it in a folk club, but in the wider 'folk' community of pubs, social groups, and any other number of gigs we might be attending. Sometimes it is enough to give people what they are familiar with and can join in with. As for it being 'shite' you are in a very small minority, Dick. It probably resonates with the real folk much more than anything you've ever sung.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:16 PM

Steve i find plenty of real folk outside folk clubs resonatewell with what i sing without ever having to sing jingle bells or rudolph , afew examples raglan road the night visiting song,the nightingale, all sung at community centres in ireland and all received very well, all these people were real folk, so steve, the problem with jingle bells and rudolph is that they are played ad nauseam at every supermarket they become hackneyed.
i sing outside folk clubs to real folk and have never need to sing or play them, so please stop making judgements on how well my songs are received outside folk clubs here in ireland.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:33 PM

Dick,
If you read what I wrote carefully you'll see I was not criticising what you sing. I was merely defending an extremely popular song that has brought joy to millions around the world.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:10 PM

It probably resonates with the real folk much more than anything you've ever sung. " your words, that is a criticism of what i sing
you do not know how songs that i have sung outside of folk clubs resonate with people, but i am telling you that community centres in west cork keep booking me back and these are not folk clubs , they are as you put it real people and i do not have to sing jingle bells., to go down well.
the current state of folk music is not going to be affected by jim singing, jingle bells.,as he has said himself he does not sing it in folk clubs, thank god

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:28 PM

"Whatever you think of Jingle Bells & it's not exactly Mozart..."

Sure, and Twinkle Twinkle isn't exactly Mozart either. But Mozart wrote a bloody lovely set of variations on that very tune. I'm no yank, but am I allowed to say "go figure" anyway?

Whatever you do, don't get aficionados of "classical music" started on what "classical music" means. I nearly got me head ripped once when I told some geezer that I love classical music and that Brahms 4 was my favourite of his symphonies...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:47 PM

No, Dick, it is not a criticism of what you sing at all. How could I criticise what I have not experienced. I'm telling you that whatever you sang in your West Cork community centres is highly unlikely to come anywhere near the popularity of 'Jingle Bells' in the greater scheme of things.

There are occasions when non-folkscene people will listen to something unfamiliar well sung, but they also appreciate something familiar that they can join in with without having to spend 10 minutes being taught the chorus. I refuse to judge them on this and certainly don't dismiss out of hand their preferences.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM

'I nearly got me head ripped once when I told some geezer that I love classical music and that Brahms 4 was my favourite of his symphonies...'

Maybe he just didn't like minor keys, Steve S.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:28 PM

He even argued that Beethoven wasn't pure classical, as Ludwig had gone a bit over the official date. Sheesh!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 07:48 AM

There are a number of monthly English tunes in the Lewes area populated by the same bunch of usual suspects. The code is that there will be a nominated leader who will led the first couple of sets of tunes or tune then go around the room inviting that musician to lead the next one.
One of the strange unwritten, undiscussed rules - there are several of them - is that when we reach the month of December, if anyone nominates the 3-part Heel & Toe Polka then when we play it, the usual third part will be replaced by Jingle Bells. This has certainly been going on for at least a decade, probably longer. How and when this started, I have no idea.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:37 AM

Sorry Steve G if you're still here, I've had no Internet.Thank's for responding to my post,but your response was so vague as to have little value.What is your mates understanding of the "wider world meaning ? What's the consensus, where are the boundaries, if there are non then we're talking about music, undefined. Folk Clubs are few and far between . I can do a 50 mile round trip to get to one, then I have to listen to someone singing Dock of the Bay, worst still they have to listen to me singing a Child ballad. There's no musical reason why we should be in the same room. How many CDs would John Howson sell if he did a compilation of Ottis Redding, Nioclás ó Tóibin, Herman's Hermits and Emma Vickers. I can see the argument for and against Broadsides being part of the Folk process but Bob Marley and the Beatles,we're not talking broad church this is Vatican friggin City. My apologies if this seems a bit blunt. I'm not too good expressing myself in print.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:41 AM

Not sure of your point about 'never having to sing Jingle Bells, Dick?
Is that a choice you've made permanently?- have you never been asked?- I found it very popular in community situations in Ireland, so not doing it must be a choice you make?
   How do you feel about the 'Wild Rover'?- and I don't mean some variation of the standard clap clap version- that's fine in a folk club, but in the real world, it can lead to disaster in audience participation!
   Bob Davenport gave me a lot of excellent advice, and one was ALWAYS TO DO REQUESTS (where possible anyway) even if it's the 'Wild Rover.
If you do that, you can do what the hell you like after that. I used to try & divert attention away from some ghastly Irish stuff like 'Grace' but I always tried and it's worked fine for me for many years.

I applaud your singing the 'trad' songs you mention in a community setting, but Scotland is no different in accepting the 'Road to Dundee' or the Barnyards o' Delgaty' & I'm sure Vic would say the same is true in Sussex?
Oh, and sorry about this, but I DID once sing 'Jingle Bells' in the Kirkcaldy Acoustic folk club, but that's another story & this is too long already....

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:15 AM

Steve Shaw, I just wanted you to know I didn't miss the following remark: 'He even argued that Beethoven wasn't pure classical, as Ludwig had gone a bit over the official date. Sheesh!' Good one.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:25 AM

I only do requests when I am asked :-) Trouble is people keep asking if I can play dominos...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:00 PM

dominoes is far too noisy a game- have you ever heard the Spanish playing it on a formica table?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:02 PM

hah.. it's nearly 2020..

dominoes needs to go electric and amplified...!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:17 PM

Judas!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:17 PM

"I only do requests when I am asked :-) Trouble is people keep asking if I can play dominos..."

Christy Moore once said that a bloke came up to the front of the stage and asked him if would do a request.

"Sure," said Christy, "What would you like?"

"Oh, anything you like..."

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:34 PM

Bu***r dominoes. I am saddened by the way the younger generation fail to recognise the beauty of the card game 'cribbage'. Oh for the old days of domino and cribbage leagues!