The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:41 PM

I'm from Scrumpyshire.. table skittles...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:43 PM

.. and quoits...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:45 PM

.. and you can shove yer ha'pennies...

what'd that be with inflation now.. a pound coin...???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:02 PM

The mention of quoits sent me looking for mention of them or the game itself in traditional songs and somehow tripped over the following which may be of interest to someone.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/One_Hundred_English_Folksongs/Notes_on_the_Songs

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:29 PM

Keith:>>>>>>>What is your mates understanding of the "wider world meaning ? What's the consensus, where are the boundaries, if there are non then we're talking about music, undefined.<<<<<<<

Not as simple as that, Keith. This has been debated ad nauseam on numerous threads, the meaning of folk music/folk song etc. I don't really want to spend time going over the same old ground over and over again. Pick any genre you like and it will have overlaps with numerous other genres. The same is with 'folk' no matter which usage you choose. Even 54 is just a list of descriptors and any given version of a song may have some of these descriptors but not necessarily all.

There are probably as many usages of the word as there are with many other words. The widest usage is the one used by the man in the street and the Music Industry, from Bob Dylan to Mumfords to any pop singer who sings solo with a guitar. Look at the 'folk' section in a music shop. You can give your opinion and say their wrong but we live in a democracy (of sorts).

Another usage is also quite amorphous, and that is that by those people who go to folk festivals, sessions, attend folk clubs, and the vast majority of these would include recently written songs in the 'folk style' but not pop singers such as 'Chas & Dave'. This would be the usage of my mates all of whom have been singing folk songs since the 60s.

Does that explain things a bit better? I also have problems expressing myself.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:37 PM

Dave, perhaps someone is asking whether you want to be in a Clapton tribute backing band? It’s not folk but this is a folk AND blues site I thought. Though I can’t remember there was a thread about blues in the last ten years.

Perhaps I need to start a ‘The current state of blues music in UK’. Must be time for another blues revival. Mind you it is usually time to race for the exit or the bar when someone announces a blues number and all the throng leap to their instruments to showcase how to play pentatonic scales inappropriately.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:55 PM

I happened to be browsing BBC Alba and there is a Folk Prom on tonight which is described as following...

FOLK PROM

Part one. In a Prom that celebrates the history and evolution of the folk music scene in Britain and Ireland, the BBC Concert Orchestra collaborates with Julie Fowlis, the Unthanks, Sam Lee and Jarlath Henderson who are pushing the boundaries of folk music.

It prompts a lot of questions.

Does the BBC know what folk music is?
Can the boundaries of folk music be broadened? (Surely not according to a number of people on this site)
Can, or has, the folk music scene evolved?

See you again round about post #3000

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: RTim
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 03:16 PM

I have never heard of Jarlath Henderson - so I listened on YouTube......good voice and what he seems to be doing is an extension in the process of taking Traditional songs and giving them a modern treatment...IMO there is nothing wrong with that. I am a little reminded of the McPeake Family.....At least he is not as mannered and calculating as Sam Lee......

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 03:25 PM

I would say this is more like crossing the boundaries than pushing the boundaries. The folk scene certainly has evolved, like most other genres have, and I pretty much guarantee it will continue to evolve. If nothing else technological advancements will guarantee that. Folk music won't die out but you can bet the dinosaurs will.

Just think, in 20 years' time they'll be writing PhD theses on what the dinosaurs on Mudcat had to say!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 03:41 PM

How exciting to perhaps be seen as a future dinosaur. Great!

As a celebration one of my favourite cartoons. Dinosaur pic

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 03:42 PM

Sometimes you have to push boundaries to get noticed and get the bookings. I think I understand where these young people are coming from. To make it to any useful level in performance art you have to be absolutely brilliant or take the music somewhere else. They are not my cup of tea, but I do respect what they are trying to do. I booked Sam for an educational folk music seminar about 10 years ago and he really knew his stuff. I have heard it said that some of these artists are 'emperor's new clothes' but at least the emperor got noticed.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:02 PM

Yeah! No wonder they're extinct. Dreadful table manners!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:29 PM

" Does that explain things a bit better ? " Noooo not by a long way Steve but thanks for your efforts. I know you're tired of this subject and I respect that so I'll leave you in peace. After 50 years in Folk music I have my own opinions We will just have to beg to differ.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:21 PM

I'm happy to beg to differ, but this forum is for everybody's opinion and to leave it without giving your opinion would be a shame. I argue incessantly with Jim but I understand where he's coming from and can empathise, and we do have some agreement though it might seem that we permanently occupy the extremes and are poles apart.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:52 PM

Well said Steve. Sleep tight.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:20 PM

I had to drive to Kennards House on the A30 to pick up the missus and her friends this affie. I whacked on Radio 3, as I do. They were playing Kate Rusby singing terrible versions of Wish You a Merry Christmas and Walking in a Winter Wonderland. It was so awful that I thought to meself, yep, this is truly folk... :-)

Marilyn Middleton-Pollock came to our folk club many years ago. She started off by telling us that someone at one of her gigs had said to her, 'Come on, depress us. Sing us a folk song..."

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:33 AM

The people in that Folk Prom are all solidly established now. A lot younger than me but they all have a following who know what to expect from them.

I don't know many performers from the generation after them and don't have a good sense of how they might be different. Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne is about the only real star I can think of, and the slightly older Callum Armstrong.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:46 AM

Sometimes you have to push boundaries to get noticed and get the bookings, "
this is the opinion of steve gardham it is not necessarily a fact.HERE IS MY OPINION.
Unfortunately the aspects of capitlism enter in to the equation, apart from having to be a quality performer, the elements of supply and demand emter in to the equation, for example the fact that i was one of the few people playing and singing and perfrming with a concertina,meant that i got more bookings that if i had been one of the hundreds of very good singer guitarists, it is not just about pushing boundaries but also about being unusual.I HAVE BBEN GETTING BOOKINGS FOR OVERV45 YEARS
In answer to jim bainbridge, i have no need to sing rudolph to get work.
the wild rover is a perfectly good song with a good story it fits into the genre of what i consider folk music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 02:08 AM

i have respect for jim bainbridge as a performer we all are free to choose what we wish to sing ,i have no wish to sing rudolph or jingle bells, i have never need to sing them to get any work, however every performers approach is different,and i wish him all the best for the season and new year

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 03:36 AM

Had Classic FM on in the car this morning and guess what they were playing. Well that proves that it's not folk music then.

Yes, Cohen is brilliant but there are others.

Er….isn't being unusual something like pushing boundaries?

Playing Rudolph and Jingle Bells isn't about getting bookings necessarily, it's about reading your audience.

Have a good Christmas, Dick and all the best for 2020, although it seems like 2021 now.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:26 AM

It's processed so it must be folk - Jingle Bells in the accordion style of each of the former Yugoslav republics.

https://youtu.be/PraEBUQFhfo

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:52 AM

Jack I hope he also does folk tunes like Czardas or Carnival of Venice (smiley)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:13 AM

"Oh, jingle bells, jingle bells
Stick them up your arse
Oh, what fun it is to
jingle jangle when you fart
Jingle bells, jingle bells
Jingle as you fart
Oh, what fun it is to
jingle jangle when you fart..."

There.. the folk process in action.....

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:15 AM

Steve, to some extent I can see where you might be coming from. Now, I'm sorry but these threads have been a lot nicer recently, and will probably stay that way until Jan 1st.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:23 AM

And happy Xmas to all, including the mods who have to firefight when 'arguments' get OTT.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:02 AM

Wow, 2027 already. Have we got rid of Boris yet? :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:13 AM

We've got rid of the BBC, who can't even afford to produce The Archers, which is okay because the cuts in the welfare state have wiped out its elderly listeners pretty efficiently.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:19 AM

I don't think that's very helpful Pseudo, you're anticipating trouble with Jim Carroll making it more likely to happen. There are people here just waiting for him to show his head so they can have a pop. I've seen it time and time again. It's not all his fault but he seems to carry the can. All the best to you hope you have a good one.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:43 AM

"I have never heard of Jarlath Henderson - so I listened on YouTube......good voice and what he seems to be doing is an extension in the process of taking Traditional songs and giving them a modern treatment"

I've not heard of him either,
so I just did a quick youtube of the intros of three of his performances..

errrrrmmm.. what's modern about a bloke singing folkie songs over a pipes drone or acoustic guitar...

What am I missing...???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:47 AM

Nick

"It’s not folk but this is a folk AND blues site I thought. Though I can’t remember there was a thread about blues in the last ten years."

My thoughts too. I have posted once or twice on blues subjects but there appears to be virtually no interest except for one poster who does not much more than post lists of names.

So, don't hold you breath.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:54 AM

Keith, there may be people wanting to 'have a pop'.


But I expressed an opinion which, I have learned since, Peggy Seeger would probably have agreed with, on the quality of a particular singer. I was subjected to a tirade of abuse as a result. I pointed out that a lot of material produced on that singer was framed within a specific ideological perspective and got called all sorts of names. Yet Jim himself is on record as saying he doesn't think he and his associates would deny having been political. My intention was not to 'have a pop'.

Sorry if this isn't very helpful, but it's the way I see it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:45 AM

No! I didn't mean you per se Pseudo. It's not my place to defend Jim Carroll he's well able to do that himself, but over the years I've watched from the sidelines when his name comes up in a thread certain people come out of the woodwork to have a go IMO whatever he says, and Jim Carroll can and does overreact. Having witnessed what's gone on I can sometimes understand. Just my opinion I'm not looking for trouble.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:52 AM

And it seems to me that 'folk music' in the UK has improved, and not least because one is no longer required to treat with awe elderly gentlemen singing colonialist songs about voyeurism, inappropriately eroticised interpretations of nudity in other cultures, the rape by a white man of a black woman rendered vulnerable by dint of having slipped, accompanied by narcissistic fantasies to the effect that she enjoyed this 'sport' and self-satisfied glee at the fact that when she gave birth he was well out of it. And then to add to it, the folk expert of the time opines that the song was not popular in Australia because it was about 'miscegenation', arguably a racist concept in itself, and possibly not reflecting any doubts that the native Australians, as opposed to the colonists, might have had about the song, had they heard and understood it.

But when I comment that such stuff is embarrassingly bad, all hell is let loose.

Nowadays, I would hope attitudes have changed a bit, and for the better.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:56 AM

Sorry Keith, I missed your last point. I agree about overreaction, and you are right about some taking a pop. But I do feel as if disagreeing, just disagreeing, with some posters risks being subjected to tirades of bad language and rudeness on a personalised level.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:59 AM

You're not wrong !

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:17 AM

So they 'improved' the song by leaving out the bit that specified she was black. Oh, so that's all right then? With respect, I am not sure about that, and if the Carthy family do, as previously (and metaphorically I am sure) threatened, turn up with a noose for my neck as a result of my saying this, well....

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 10:54 AM

i think maybe the problem is that we Brits have a strange reputation for being polite
bobbies on point duty two by two...etc.

in fact, we can be more rude to each other than most other people.
an argument about which finger Ewan stuck in his ear...can get very heated.
In America - it would probably be prelude to a shooting incident.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:39 AM

No it's not it's BICYCLES !!!! bloody hell Whittle can you get nothing right ( big smile )

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:55 AM

Happy New Year to you too, Dick!
but just to clarify, I'm not in the education business, nor do I have any current interest in trawling for gigs in folk clubs or festivals- I never have, in 55 years in the music
What I do these days ( and what I've always done) is to respond to people who ask me to provide some unamplified music at a social occasion- mostly it's a yes & sometimes I get paid & sometimes I'm happy to do it free.
I take that as a compliment, and feel an obligation to give the people as good a time as I can & try & guess what they might like.
If that involves Jingle Bells that's fine by me- as you know, I have my own idea of what music is about & have no interest in excluding anything. -I recall Scan Tester was a great fan of the Seekers.
So although I think there's a lot of phoney 'folk' crap about- no names but the BBC seems to have many of them on their books....there's some good stuff too- ,
However a lot of great songs are impossible on a GD melodeon, so I do what I can...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:16 PM

I gotta be honest, I prefer folk music to folk music...


hmm... now that is either meaningless and confused, or very profound...???

buggered if I know which...
but could it temporarily shut up a folk definition argument
if delivered in a convincing enough tone of voice...???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

Yebbut what about FOLK music or folk MUSIC? You are completely ignoring them with your glib statement. I am outraged!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:10 PM

Jim Bainbridge -
Scan Tester was a great fan of the Seekers.
One of the last tunes that Scan learned was "Puppet on a String", the Eurovision Song Contest-winning song in 1967 by British singer Sandie Shaw. Of course, as he learned it aurally, he automatically adapted it suit his style and the function that he had in mind for it. He was primarily a pub musician who also played for dancing.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:22 PM

Before we leave the vitally important subject of Jingle Bells here it is as a traditional dance - a fairly simple progressive circle dance and all you dance callers out there can learn it easily from this video.
Of course, you would have to find a band that knew the tune and could play it.....

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:41 PM

Who's mentioned FOLK definitions today PFR other than you. What number are we up to now Dave, you're very good at that.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:46 PM

Keith - it depends what you mean by "definitions"...???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:48 PM

I didn't notice but I am getting on for 100 years old :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 02:14 PM

I won't always be your straight man PFR ( hopefully )

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 02:27 PM

Keith - that's a feed line for gag unfortunately now discouraged in these more PC times...

but anyway.. ooer mrs...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 02:35 PM

JIM I am not interested in who Scan was was a fan of.
I have a different approach to you,there is nothing wrong with that neither do i consider myself in the education business.
   jim, every one has to do their own thing, your way is no more right than mine.enjoy yourself your way i will enjoy myself my way.good night

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 02:51 PM

Yes I did consider that but I was sure you'd know better. I'm desperately trying to get the last word PFR