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The current state of folk music in UK
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 29 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM Yep very close to "I sing traditional songs, I am a traditional singer" would fit very many singers ~ but can we contemplate such a big jump and is it correct? I ask Source singers Steve are Traditional singers; by and large if they can prove the family link? I ask ~ or even community link Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 29 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM Depends on the definition of Tradition. If you mean style and performance, in the manner I was discussing with Jim Carroll earlier in this thread, then learning songs from your parents may not make you a source singer. If there is a singing Tradition in your family of, for example, music hall songs, and you learned them from that Tradition, then you are a Traditional singer in that respect, but you will not be a Traditional Folk singer. Can of worms reopened I think. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Nov 19 - 12:46 PM John Greaves, me mam, Will Noble, John Cocking, Roger Hinchliffe and this is just Yorkshire. As far as I know they're still with us. Yes the use of 'traditional singer' to describe non-source singers is unfortunate but bound to happen, if they sing primarily traditional songs. Probably why many of us now use the term 'source singer' but even that can be problematic. I've learnt several songs orally from non-source singers, but they are my sources. I learnt songs from me mam and grandparents and uncles. Does this make me a traditional singer? I don't think so. BTW 'Waltz of the Bells' sounds familiar. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 29 Nov 19 - 12:45 PM Asinger of tradstional songs not a traditional singer , he is also good |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 29 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM Just as you say Ray. I got the wrong end of the stick. Meanwhile Dave your tune is indeed a Folk tune, and the radio gleaned song has one foot in the Tradition, it could become a super variant or be transformed. Down in the fields, and Buttercup Joe were both on 78rpm recordings and both firmly in the repertoires of Traditional singers. The closer you get to Folksong, the further away it flees. My view is don't worry about it, as Martin Carthy said to me many moons ago, 'Go with your heart'. It works for me. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Starship Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:56 AM Don't know why I was reminded of this poem. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:32 AM Nick my point is really can Jack Rutter's agent describe him thus ~ @JackRutterer Folk Singer, Guitarist, Bouzouki Player, Multi-Instrumentalist. // ’Among Britain's finest traditional singers I then queried the description "traditional" singer and whether there are any traditional source singers left ~ you kindly confirmed that there are indeed "traditional singers" still alive Jack Rutter then, cannot be described as a "traditional" singer, can he? My contention is that he could be described as a Revivalist or Traditionalist singer ~ how do you reckon he should be described?? Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:15 AM >>if a folk revival takes place in a forest and no one sees it,..... does it really exist? Crucially, does someone hear it? If not there is no aural tradition. Noone, to my knowledge, has ever posted on here that folk music is a visual tradition. (And just in case... the presence of a woolly jumper and a beard can mean many things) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Nov 19 - 09:58 AM On the subject of living source singers. I learned a tune from my Dad and all attempts to trace it have failed. He always called it the Waltz of the Bells and told us he learnt it from a Gypsy band in his native Byalistok before the war. Nothing was ever written down but he showed me how to play it on his small bodied Harmony guitar tuned to DGDGBD. I have now passed it on to Will Fly who has kindly written the music for it. I guess that makes it a source tune? If so there must be quite a few odds and ends like that lurking about so maybe there is still a lot of undiscovered source material. While typing, I had another thought. What if someone heard any song on a passing radio and it stuck in his or her memory without them knowing anything about it at all. They then sing their interpretation of it to friends and family who, in turn, know nothing about it and it then becomes part of their community repertoire, has it become a folk song? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM if a folk revival takes place in a forest and no one sees it,..... does it really exist? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 29 Nov 19 - 07:06 AM I would take issue with you Ray, about living Traditional singers I know several. I came across another only two weeks ago. No offence to anyone, but I am playing to full houses more or less everywhere. OK sometimes there are small rooms admittedly, but I have no reason for complaint. I'm not sure that this is indicative of anything, but may be of interest in the context of the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 29 Nov 19 - 05:42 AM Re the separate rooms or in the pub idea. I suppose we are kind of lucky at our club. On the Friday night every week we have floor spots in a separate room from 8pm to the back of 10pm. Quiet listening audience. Then from the back of 10pm we decamp to a nearby pub and play for the regulars, diners, tourists and whoever is in there. I enjoy both! Also on the Thursday night there is a quieter bar session which is specifically trad only. Try to get a bit in there for everyone. Our early Friday session used to be in a non licensed room (though you could take drink in) and we actually had for a while quite a few youngsters coming along. Teenagers and school kids! Those premises closed and we went back into licensed premises and we basically lost most of the youngsters. Though numbers are holding up. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Nov 19 - 04:49 AM There is always room for improvement in everything. I would hope this thread and others like it on many forums give organisers ideas on how to make the presentation of folk music even better. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:55 AM Jack Rutter @JackRutterer Folk Singer, Guitarist, Bouzouki Player, Multi-Instrumentalist. // ’Among Britain's finest traditional singers.' - Folk Radio UK // Bookings • @AlanBearmanMus No no this is a current description of a young gifted folk artist ~UK is this totally acceptable currently ~ bearing in mind we have no traditional source singers still alive? have we? Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM Phew ~ room for improvement mebbe Here's one for discussion ~ do folk clubs exist solely to book professional folk artists? Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:36 AM Dave, i would hope for improvement in some areas. I am of the opinion that seperate rooms are important. I do not believe in imposing on people who do not wish to hear a specific genre of music or any music, people go primarily to pubs to drink alcohol, not necessarily to hear music I am not particularly keen on open mics that i have seen or heard about either, i am of the opinion that the music is as deserving of respect as classical music. i understand the argument of taking music to the public in pubs and under certain circumstances it can be successful. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Nov 19 - 02:46 AM So, the state of folk music in the UK is very healthy. No one has said it has never been healthier but we are all happy. Good :-) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 29 Nov 19 - 02:41 AM From a performers point of view , the fact that we no longer have to put up with cigareet smoke as part of our working conditions is good, and makes singing easier |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 29 Nov 19 - 02:22 AM joe g , thankyou you are quite right there is no need for dave the gnome to use swear words. but if we are talking about the subject. to have criticisms as well as mentioning good points is not moaning. it appears the folk dance scene is fairly strong ,and the song scene has a lot of participants although the standard in singaround clubs seems to have been lowered. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Nov 19 - 02:22 AM Joe G - I’m pretty sure you’ll have a good experience at the GBFF. I played at last year’s GBFF and the sound - both on-stage and FOH - was excellent. A great crowd of people and, for once, a FF where you can wear decent clothes and don’t have to spend most of the time up to your oxters in mud. The queues can be a bit of a PITA but patience is a virtue! Have a great time, I’m sure you will! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 28 Nov 19 - 06:11 PM For goodness sake chaps - I'd like this thread to resume it's previous constructive and interesting direction rather than doing the usual thing of it falling into pointless and confusing arguments. Once again can I ask that we focus on the folk scene of today rather than constantly referring back. It is what is happening today that I hope most of us are interested in - not how it compares to yesterday! If you are going to argue about that please start a new thread or PM each other. We are probably on final notice - Joe has been very tolerant of our occasional falling out but I would understand if he felt that one more agressive argument was one too many. Anyway on a brighter note I'm looking forward to my second visit to the Great British Folk Festival at Skeggy Butlins tomorrow. I said I wouldn't go again after last time a few years ago but friends have said that the sound quality is much better now and the line up this year was irresistible - though because of that there are a number of serious clashes! Great British Folk Festival |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 05:26 PM Dave, steve says it is healthy below do you say it is healthy but yet are not prepared to say it has never been healthier. based on steve gardhams information[ he lives in the uk i do not] the conclusion that i made it has never been healthier, correct me if i am mistaken Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham - PM Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM Yes, Sue, that's another aspect of the modern folk scene that gets little mention. Back in Jim's day the majority of the folk scene was quite incestuous in that it took place in private pub room with little contact with the general public. Nowadays we try to take music into all sorts of institutions and out onto the streets to engage the general public, and not just passively. We have been into schools, taught them folk songs and had the kids perform at our festival, and many other similar events. I know Whitby Festival puts on all sorts of events like this and it's still going strong. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 28 Nov 19 - 05:08 PM Folk music and dance is in a good place there are lots of young participants enjoying the whole folk music genre. Please old folkies stop moaning and enjoy it , it will still be there when you have all long gone. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:49 PM No, Dick. It really is dead simple. No one throughout this thread has said the folk scene has never been healthier apart from you. If you feel that is the case please feel free to tell us why. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:48 PM We are saying the scene IS HEALTHY. Like anything else there is always room for improvement, but that was so even in the 60s. The things that contrive to make the scene not so healthy are largely beyond our control, the economic situation, changing technology, changing habits, etc., etc. We'd rather be positive and keep working hard at improving it than keep moaning like some. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:40 PM so Dave you post DAVE ,I AM PUTTING FORWARD THE STATEMENT IT HAS NEVER BEEN HEALTHIER. ... Please, if you can [steve and dave and anyone else] disprove this statement. I'm not sure about anyone else but I am not interested in disproving a statement that no one has made. What the fuck are you on about,Dick? so are you saying, dave that the scene is not healthy? do you believe it is healthy, or do ou not have anything to say apart from swearing at me |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:36 PM Dick, we understand some of the terminology you are using, it's just not very clear what point you are trying to make. I think you are trying to be ironic, but your twisting and misinterpreting is reminiscent of SOE. >>>>>folk clubs and professional performers are not needed,<<<<<< |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:33 PM I fully understand English, Dick. Just who is saying that the folk scene has never been healthier? If you believe it is so,please feel free to show.how. It is not me saying it is crap. I am just sat here with my daughters (not much over 30) listening to Bella Hardy. She is brilliant. Just what the folk scene needs. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:17 PM do you not understand english, dave, the scene has never been healthier steve is taking out music to dozens of people, folk clubs and professional performers are not needed, we have ed sheeran singing the blooming heather, we have folk music being sung in pubs this is good news wwe have singaround clubs with performers who do not need to listen to anyone else. dave do you not understand the scene must be healthy |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:12 PM since jim was busy on the uk folk scene until 1996 when he moved to ireland ,i interpret jims day as including up until 1996 when he moved to ireland. guest peter you are the one shifting goalposts jim carroll himself has never said anything so silly as that trolling quote by steve gardham. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM DAVE ,I AM PUTTING FORWARD THE STATEMENT IT HAS NEVER BEEN HEALTHIER. ... Please, if you can [steve and dave and anyone else] disprove this statement. I'm not sure about anyone else but I am not interested in disproving a statement that no one has made. What the fuck are you on about,Dick? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:10 PM i am sure jim will andwer that when he comes back but since jim was busy on the uk folk scene until 196 when he moved to ireland ,i interpret jims day as including up until 196 when he moved to ireland. guest peter you are the one shifting goalposts jim carroll himself has never said anything so silly as that trolling quote by steve gardham. , steve says he is confused, I am putting forward the proposotion based on his postings that the scene has never been healthier steve gardham is telling us about all the things he is doing, and how this is getting music out to the general public. exdellent, steve is doing a great job bringing yorkshire folk music to dozens of people who needs ed sheeran when we have steve gardham. well, then the scene must be healthier than ever before that is wonderful news. so we do not need professional performers playing in folk clubs, the standard of open mic perfomance is that high?if it is that is good news indeed, presumably we we have high standards of singers in singaround clubs too that is indeed great news. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Peter Date: 28 Nov 19 - 03:34 PM Somebody seems to be moving the goalposts. "Jim's Day" in terms of his posts were late 50s to early 70s not the 80s or early 90s. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Nov 19 - 03:10 PM >>>>>>>back in Jim's day... events were occuring in schools, sessions were ocurring in pubs, folk clubs were not exclusively in back rooms,<<<<<<<. Dick, please read what you repost carefully (but thanks for reposting it.)>>>>> the majority of the folk scene was quite incestuous in that it took place in a private pub room with little contact with the general public<<<<<<< (Me). The crucial word here is MAJORITY. I got around a lot of folk clubs in the 60s and 70s and in every big city there was usually one club that did take the music out to schools and the general public, but I repeat, the MAJORITY of the attendees at most folk clubs were happy to turn up at their club once a week and then go back to their normal lives for the rest of the week. I was very lucky in that period to be an active member of the type of club that did take the music out to the people but the other half a dozen clubs in the area did not do this. (Not a criticism, just a fact). |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 28 Nov 19 - 02:18 PM Now I'm even more confused. Who is arguing what? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 02:13 PM Please, if you can [steve and dave and anyone else] disprove this statement. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 01:41 PM DAVE ,I AM PUTTING FORWARD THE STATEMENT IT HAS NEVER BEEN HEALTHIER. Discuss amicably without resorting to remarks that i am being foolish |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 01:38 PM i have been singing in folk clubs and been going to folk clubs since 1967, my experience is that the decline in folk club attendance on seperate rooms was a gradual thing, but fairly noticeable in 1983 compared to 1973. the uk folk scene appears to be healthy according to steve gardham who has quoted all the extra outside events that are still happening and were happening back in the early 80s such as singers going in to schools folk clubs happening in pubs sessions happening in pubs, none of which suddenly started happening since jim left the uk in 1996 |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham - PM Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:22 PM Yes, Sue, that's another aspect of the modern folk scene that gets little mention. Back in Jim's day the majority of the folk scene was quite incestuous in that it took place in private pub room with little contact with the general public. Nowadays we try to take music into all sorts of institutions and out onto the streets to engage the general public, and not just passively. We have been into schools, taught them folk songs and had the kids perform at our festival, and many other similar events. I know Whitby Festival puts on all sorts of events like this and it's still going strong. Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham - PM Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:29 PM 'it has been suggested by some' 'because to some extent' 'so the idea that it might have' I don't remember any of this being suggested. You're beginning to sound like someone else, Dick. What was actually stated by many on this thread is that the Folk Scene has become more diverse in where it is performed. It is still there in the folk clubs, but FOR MANY VARIOUS reasons the folk clubs have become fewer and much more now takes place in a wide variety of other venues. Not what you are twisting. Nobody has suggested it is particularly a recent phenomenon, it is something that has evolved over many years. Steve, you suggested it was a recent phenenomenon by putting [back in jims day,] in facr this is complete bollocks back in jims day... events were occuring in schools, sessions were ocurring in pubs, folk clubs were not exclusively in back rooms,,, i gave you thtee examples from 1983 one was the travelling folk club the other was capital folk club. the laughing fish folk club which was run by vic and tina smith would have been[ back as you put it] in jims day. jim,moved to ireland after walter pardon died in 1996, 23 years ago, so if you must use the term back in jims day we are talking pre 1996. all the things you[steve gardham ]are suggesting happened were taking place pre 1996. steve what you are suggesting is not a recent phenomenon, it was happening back in jims day, pre 1996. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 28 Nov 19 - 10:37 AM https://www.englishfolkexpo.com/2019/11/join-our-board/ Maybe someone here can fill the void and make a difference. That was originally posted to Mudcat by Freddy. Just spreading the word. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 28 Nov 19 - 12:20 AM Well maybe we need those voices saying things are not as they should be. What would be the perfect scenario? Two or three folk clubs in every town - full of people listening in respectful silence as long unaccompanied ballads are performed by bright eyed youngsters - full of zeal for ancient balladry....? I think if that had been on offer in the 1960's and 70's - I would have stayed at home with my parents , watching the Rolf harris Show.....(featuring the Young Generation!) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Nov 19 - 06:19 PM All of the evidence posted in this thread comes as a direct response to the absurd extreme attacks of the Private Frazer of the Folk Scene. 'We're all doomed....doomed Ah tell ye!' |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:50 PM Dick. If you can come up with any evidence of anyone saying it has "never been healthier" please feel free to post it. Otherwise, stop making things up. It adds nothing to the discussion and makes you look a fool. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:46 PM I'd guessed Nick. Was just going to unmask you. Thanks for the correction. I always thought it was the two in the bar ruling that made them take their bat home |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:42 PM Whoops. Last post was me. iPad logged me out. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:38 PM Tiny point. Sam smiths chopped music to cut their PRS liabilities (even though they were offered a preferential rate). It happened to coincide with the change to the licensing act but the change to licensing was not the reason. Remember it well. Nearly had Radio 4 come and make a programme in our local pub that we played in. There was even a page 3 full page article in the York Evening Press with a big pic of me outside the Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington. I still chat to Humphrey Smith about it when I bump into him (rarely now I go into pubs less) and continue to have the aim - which I have said to him directly - to play in a Sams pub WITH HIS BLESSING one day before I stop playing music... To keep this a little relevant to the thread. If you have access to Facebook you can see what our music gatherings were like back then. I have always thought of them as definitely at least a bit folky... Has the world changed much over fifteen years? Not really. I still know a lot of similar things and there’s much more music in pubs than then. When Sams stopped music I had huge difficulty finding another pub to play in. EVERYTHING then was food. Ten eat for £3... no one wanted music even though we contributed. The night the pictures above were taken there was around £1000 taken in beer sales and bitter at the time was £1.08 a pint if I remember. But coincidentally I am off playing a gig this Friday at the pub in Flaxton that we ran a weekly session in for years. Sometimes pulling in well over 50 people off whom many were musicians. From trad unaccompanied to tunes to more modern things. A lot of fun and definitely at least rooted in folk. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:29 PM 'it has been suggested by some' 'because to some extent' 'so the idea that it might have' I don't remember any of this being suggested. You're beginning to sound like someone else, Dick. What was actually stated by many on this thread is that the Folk Scene has become more diverse in where it is performed. It is still there in the folk clubs, but FOR MANY VARIOUS reasons the folk clubs have become fewer and much more now takes place in a wide variety of other venues. Not what you are twisting. Nobody has suggested it is particularly a recent phenomenon, it is something that has evolved over many years. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 27 Nov 19 - 04:37 PM Folk music has never been healthier in the uk? . , it has been suggested by some that the reason for this is because to some extent it has now moved out of folk clubs , however this was certainly happening in 1983 so this is not a recent phenomenon ,so the idea that it might have recently got much healthier because it moved away from folk clubs is not borne out. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 27 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM The rather idiosyncratic (to put it politely!) brewery Sam Smith's got rid of all music in their pubs as a result of that licence change including several folk clubs - possibly most famously the one at Nellie's in Beverley |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Iains Date: 27 Nov 19 - 03:27 PM The The Dance Hall Act of 1935,raises some interesting parallels with the UK much later. The public entertainment license modified the two in a bar entertainment rules around 2003 I believe. They were subsequently relaxed around 2012? To what extent did this legislation inhibit folk clubs? The British Council still fund overseas trips for (folk) musicians http://music.britishcouncil.org/about/how-we-work |
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