 sj |
||
|
||
The current state of folk music in UK
|
|
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:52 AM In the small town of Lewes, there are three folk music events that I would like to be at tomorrow night (23/11). Simon Mayor & Hilary James are on at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, a very talented local Cajun band are playing at a pub just round the corner from there and the film about the life of one of England's greatest folk song collectors - "All My Life’s Buried Here: The Story of George Butterworth" is on the really well appointed 4-screen community cinema. To make it even more attractive, before the screening, it will be introduced by director Stewart Morgan Hajdukiewicz..... and I won't be able to be at any of them! I will be calling the dances and playing with the Sussex Pistols at the town's All Saints Arts Centre. The organisers tell us that it is a sell-out. I sometimes wish that "The current state of folk music in Lewes" was a bit less hectic so that I could go to more events. Ah well! At least I have a couple of sessions - one a mixed song & tune session, the other an English tune session - to look forward to, though one clashes with a club in Brighton, 8 miles away, that I like to go to. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 21 Nov 19 - 09:07 PM Cheers Steve - we're now at 1700 posts and I really would like this thread to continue to focus on the quite remarkable music that is still being made on the UK folk scene but also how things can improve, what opportunities are perhaps being missed and how we can secure the future of the music we all love Once again my thanks to those who have contributed with their knowledge and opinions |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:57 PM I was not wanting at all to start a new line of enquiry. So I agree with that. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:56 PM Thanks Steve. Absolutely appreciate your viewpoint as I indicated in my post. I think we just need this to rest now. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:53 PM In no way was my post an attempt to discuss the rights and wrongs of the suspension. I went out of my way to say that this isn't my gig. One thing about this forum is the swiftness of some people to take sides and rush to judgement. Do read my post again, which was carefully composed in very measured terms, properly this time. Glad you had a good evening out, by the way. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:43 PM Steve - having said you have no desire to discuss the suspension of Jim you then post a long, not unreasonable to be fair, argument against his suspension. Can we please respect Joe's wish that this is not a subject for discussion? I recognise the irony in my statement! A moderator has the right to moderate. If people are unhappy with that then it's not like the internet is devoid of places to discuss music - though I admit this is one of the best when people use it constructively. So ease back to the subject... |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 21 Nov 19 - 08:35 PM Been out for the night enjoying folk and not so much folk music in York including a gig in the library which is an interesting new venue - wood panelling, nice acoustics and sensitive sound engineering. Lots of promise there. Then on to the Three Legged Mare to the open mic with a good mixture of performers - again a mix of folk and not folk stuff. Anyway what I meant to say was thanks for the posts since Mudcat was resurrected. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:43 PM Well, I have no desire to discuss the suspension of Jim. This is not my gig. I've pleaded with Jim many times to ignore his winder-upperers, and on the whole such people should be ashamed of themselves. I would just say this (and, once again, I'm an aficionado of traditional Irish instrumental music mainly, which often makes me a bit peripheral in these threads): Jim is unique here and his depth of knowledge and his connection with a past that goes way before my time in/interest in folk music, is unique and utterly invaluable. There's nobody else here remotely like him. He needs to be here to be passing on his incredible body of knowledge. I mean, what the hell is this website supposed to be about! Like the rest of us, he has many a bee in his bonnet, but we need people like that. He might be in touch in the next few days. I'll tell him if he does for the ****th time to stop bloody rising to the bait. What a shame that so many baiters, often shallow people of far less knowledge than him, are still here, probably impatient for his return so that they can resume their silly provocations. Roll on Dec 1! |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM @ Backwoodsman That's fine and I can see your view, but sometimes a few of us get together and we each take something and printed words and 'teach' the others then we sing and mess about. Usually involves nibbles and alcohol, some really good times. Some folk, some blues, some 'pop', whatever we like. On song-books and ring-binders, it just depends on the context. It seems wrong in some contexts.... in others it's ok or even fine … |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:30 PM Some time ago I went to a club in a small town twelve or so miles from my home. I was somewhat perplexed when the MC handed out song-books to the attendees, and then spent the evening telling them which songs they were going to sing, and leading the community singing. I never went back. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:43 PM I believe there is an article in the journal about Family Songbooks. They are used as a way to preserve songs for the future generations. Old Bill House of Beaminster made his own song book when I recorded his songs, and his daughter in law stitched the pages into the cover. His son Norman used the book to aid his memory. He took it to a sing around where he was ridiculed for using it by some idiot. He went home and never sang again in public. Much the same as Raggy, my wife has all her family songs written out in a small note book in her very best handwriting (which is much better than mine) and considering she is the first in the (Gypsy) family ever to have learned to read and write, it is a keepsake. She gets the book out when she sings, and then sings with her eyes shut. I realise Family Songbooks are not really the point but it will open up the discussion a bit I hope. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:22 PM I am sad to say my good lady feels she needs a crib sheet. She doesn't, but it acts as a crutch for her. she rarely if ever looks at it. In her defence she didn't start singing until quite late in life and didn't as Iains suggested earlier learn songs the 'hard' way. Having said that on Tuesday night she sang three songs and stopped the bar entirely with two of them. Personally I don't use them, quite honestly I do not like them and I really dislike it when people 'read from them' However, I have a dilemma, do I tolerate them or upset my good lady. No contest !!! |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 21 Nov 19 - 02:54 PM Observer - Unfortunately Vic I have seen it on stage at both concerts and at one rather weird festival In the context of folk clubs, I don't think I ever have seen a guest performer using crib sheets. In 50 years of running and usually compering weekly clubs. I don't think that I ever did unless you count this occasion. Jez Lowe was the guest and in the middle of his usual excellent performance he told the audience that in the following week he had to go into the studio to record a song for one of the new Radio Ballads. He had never sung it in public before and he really wanted to gauge the audience reaction to it. He thought he had the words off but would we mind if he put the words on a chair next to where he was performing. the comments from the audience suggested that they would be pleased to hear his new song. He did glance down at the paper once when he was singing but there was no pause in her performance. The song was very well received and Jez made a point of thanking the audience for helping him out. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 21 Nov 19 - 02:19 PM Yes memory can play tricks and I find I need to get as many club visits as possible to sing and remember the words ~ Jim Potter is now 89 and does use an aide memoire ~ and good on him too Ray |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:32 PM Yes I saw Nick's performance, when I finally found the venue, the night before last. very creditable. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:11 PM I've just got back from touring. To answer Steve's question I don't think I saw one single singer use a 'prompt' electronic or otherwise. I am in two minds about the use of words. Half of me realises that with age, memory fails, the other half says that it's lack of practice, or sheer laziness. A part of the job of singing is training both voice and memory, much in the same way as an actor. I have been training my memory for 50 years, and to this day I can still recite scripts I learnt as a child, and songs I have never sung. I could probably recite most of Jake Thackray's lyrics. Well hooray for me! I'm supposed to remember the chuffing words because I'm a paid singer. If you are a 'hobby' singer and your memory is failing due to age, and you have been supporting Folk Clubs all of your life, then by all means use a 'prompt'. Anybody else, make the effort to learn the words and see how you get on. In my book it shows respect for your material and your audience. You might surprise yourself! |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Observer Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:11 PM A "Flok Club" - now there's a thing - should of course be Folk Club, apologies. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Observer Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:08 PM Unfortunately Vic I have seen it on stage at both concerts and at one rather weird festival - so not just at sessions and singarounds. Worst offender by miles one person I have seen with one song who has been using a tablet for 12 years, on stage, in a flok club setting and at a singaround. As long as you use your "prompt" you'll never learn the f**king song. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Iains Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:56 PM Crib sheets and music stands. Could it be that pre computer/internet days if you wanted the lyrics to a song you had to find a book of words, or carefully listen while busy scribbling. Having gone through that intensive effort the average person had largely learnt the piece. Today the same thing can be accomplished with a few clicks and the effort required is minimal, likewise the retention. I do not offer that as an excuse, just a possible explanation. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:54 PM Observer - Today ringbinders, tablets, phones used with the reasoning/excuse of "Oh I only use it as a prompt" - yet time after time after time they sing the same bloody song and yet still they need the "prompt", they still sing to the room head down nose jammed in the ringbinder, tablet, phone. I see a distinction between a free admission gathering such as a singaround or mixed session where in some cases it might be permissible - occasionally they are just a fairly closed group of friends anyway - and a paid admission event. I really don't want to pay money to hear someone read a song that they have not learned. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:33 PM Kenny, in answer to your question I have visited clubs in Devon, Cornwall, Essex, North Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, South East Lancashire, Greater Manchester and North Wales in the past 4 or 5 years. This together with reading posts from people in other parts of the country would lead me to believe my post was valid. Cheers Raggytash |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Observer Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:28 PM Steve Gardham Date: 20 Nov 19 - 05:55 PM My observation over a similar timespan has been the exact opposite. Bygone days very few ringbinders or prompts, if anyone wanted to entertain the company they took the trouble to actually learn what they wanted to sing. Today ringbinders, tablets, phones used with the reasoning/excuse of "Oh I only use it as a prompt" - yet time after time after time they sing the same bloody song and yet still they need the "prompt", they still sing to the room head down nose jammed in the ringbinder, tablet, phone. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,patriot Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM Ewan MacColl was one influence among many in the early revival. However, talking about him has little purpose as we approach the third decade bof the 21st century. Where are we TODAY- we can now ignore Jim Carroll & his jaundiced views- he's opted out of this discussion anyway- I thought Tory politicians were an arrogant bunch until I read his unpleasant and cockeyed opinions. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Nov 19 - 11:52 AM This has become a thread where one sided insults have now replaced intelligent argument I am sick to the stomach at the way one of Englands finest (dead) source singers has been treated, first by the posters here and now by a moderator who has banned opening a thread about him None of you has offered a decent argument - not one, you have distrted what I have said and now you are openly insulting me This forum has become a disgrace I have offered my resignation so you might say you've wwon Congratulations fellers Sadly Jim Carroll
Your contentious behavior has gone on for years, and it must be brought to a stop. I'm sorry it has come to this. -Joe Offer, Music Editor, The Mudcat Cafe- And no, I will not allow public discussion of this suspension. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Nov 19 - 11:32 AM I have just been told Walter Pardon will no longer allowd to be discussed for a while so you're safe lads Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:22 AM Maybe now people are more open minded and less dogmatic? |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:21 AM Good post, Al. Broadens it out. Regarding 4a)I know not all Mudcatters welcome university engagement with folk, but, both in terms of performance quality and creativity, and in terms of often providing a more considered discussion of the many issues that 'folk' throws up I think it is welcome. However, it isn't always about 'gravitas' though that has its place I agree. But so do other things, including social aspects and just having fun. I have enjoyed quite a bit of 'academic' work, including, for example, Vic Gammon. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Nov 19 - 08:04 PM I think its very common nowadays for people at sessions to have ringbinders full of songs. Being old school, I'm not keen on the idea but theres nowt much I can do about it - and why should I want to. It doesn't seem to bother the other people - bit of a non subject. The way a singer goes about his songs is his business. No what I was trying to say in my post was that the areas where we encounter folk music seem different than in the 1960's. Differences I have noticed. 1) Good instruments are available to virtually everybody 2) Recording is not just confined to professional singers 3) The internet has provided a wealth of source material - in the 1960's you had to buy an expensive album, or chase around after a singer and ask him to share his song/technique with you 4) Folk music has a more respectable image because a) the impact of university courses - people see folksinging and ethnic studies as legitimate artforms in the same way that ballet, drama, and classical music studies offered a career in teaching, performing, etc. b) its image is now glum BBC4 programs, rather than light entertainment - as The Spinners, Corries, Jake Thackeray sort of thing. Its public image has more gravitas. 6) The pub is no longer the primary venue. The drink driving laws severe application, plus more awareness of disability access issues has made the top room of pubs not the popular choice of venue. Pro musicians look to festivals, artsreach type set ups, concerts in church halls. 7) Kids are not attracted by the scruffy bohemian scene of travelling round in crappy old cars, sleeping on floors etc.. The present generation is more fastidious THeres probably nore you can think of. But theres no sense in looking back. I think we have to look for positives rather the snows of yesteryear. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Peter Date: 20 Nov 19 - 06:28 PM I've not seen it done in a folk club, but they must exist somewhere as they have been mentioned on here. I have been in a club where a music stand was provided for the crib sheets. This was on a singers' night, I don't know if they do the same for floor singers on guest nights. Unlike some people here I won't extrapolate from that to say that all clubs do it but I have seen it happen. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 20 Nov 19 - 06:19 PM One of my favourite singer songwriters when trying out a new song for the first time in public sometimes has a crib sheet there in case he needs it. Doesn't make the blindest bit of difference to the passion he puts into the song and I've never seen him use it twice for the same song. Not a major issue in my view. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Nov 19 - 06:17 PM Daft question maybe but how come it seems acceptable for performance poets to read from folders but not for singers? Or has no one else experienced that? Don't get me wrong. I don't often see singers using prompts but I have experienced it occasionally. There was one old chap I knew did it all the time but he was so knowledgeable in other areas we forgave him :-) |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: RTim Date: 20 Nov 19 - 06:11 PM I know a very good singer and Collector of songs here in the USA - She has been blind from birth and I find it amazing what she has done and can still do. However - on occasion when she wants to sing a particular song for a particular reason and she is not sure of all the words - She has a "Braille" reader that she follows with her fingers.....and most listeners have NO idea what she is doing... Tim Radford |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Nov 19 - 06:07 PM Dick, you get around the folk clubs in the UK. Do you see any evidence of performers getting up with a folder and singing from it? If you do how often? What about you, Brian and NickD? At our regular concerts a few years ago we gave a young group of chanty singers a spot. I was a bit uncertain when they started using a tablet of some sort as a prompt. However they went down very well and seemed committed so we asked them back a few months later. This time no prompt and much improved. The last 2 or 3 concerts they have gone down a storm. What if I had taken that first performance as their measure and not asked them back? Who would have been the poorer? |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Nov 19 - 05:55 PM I go back in folk clubs to 1965. In all of the clubs I regularly visited and there were plenty of different types then, some much more contemporary others very traditional every one was a mixture of what we called traditional folk and contemporary folk. Not one club was completely traditional, not one club was completely contemporary. I don't see any difference in the clubs I visit today, or in the many singarounds and sessions I attend. Jim's visit to ONE club in London, snap, I went to a club in the same venue to launch one of my books. Lots of great singing but ONE person stood up with a phone and made a bollox of a song everyone there knew backwards. An unfortunate experience in one club doesn't really tell us very much. As for people sitting in front of a folder singing from it. Tolerated for a while in a singaround but certainly not encouraged and very much a minority anyway. I've not seen it done in a folk club, but they must exist somewhere as they have been mentioned on here. In all the folk events I have attended in the past 10 years compared with the 60s I'd say a definite improvement, but then again surely that is to be expected with increased knowledge, technology, access to a wide variety of material. And the youngsters are there and taking control and doing a damn good job, but what would he know about this anyway? |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,kenny Date: 20 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM "200 clubs and sessions in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire ALONE would suggest to anyone with an ounce of intellience that the folk music scene in the UK is still quite vibrant and alive". No it doesn't. It might mean that the "folk music scene" is "still quite vibrant and alive" in "Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire". Nothing more, nothing less. When was the last time you set foot in a folk club in Scotland, that allows you to make that extrapolation with any first hand knowledge ? |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Nov 19 - 05:43 PM Linda sang some of her wonderful local fishing industry songs last Saturday at our Maritime concert. When she's not there we sing them for her. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Guest Date: 20 Nov 19 - 05:42 PM "Limp wristed" ???????? |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Nick Date: 20 Nov 19 - 04:57 PM I think you will find that Hissyfit unfortunately is no longer a working entity. Which is sad. But by chance I think it true to say that we offered them their first paid gig at the Thompson’s Arms in Flaxton. And very good they were too. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Nov 19 - 04:08 PM There is actually a bewildering amount of activity and creative effort going on. I doubt if anyone has a handle on it all. I think a start might be list all the areas of activity. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Nov 19 - 04:08 PM Not exactly young or new but I heard Sound Tradition for the first time at Moira this year. Same venue as Winter Wilson, which is what reminded me :-) I thought they were brilliant and complemented the young and new beautifuly. The linked clip is at Hardraw - We have moved there for our February do next year if you and Christine are about and fancy it it Raggy |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 20 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM I've heard very good things about Hissyfit but not managed to catch them. Will seek them out on YouTube. I think I have heard Cara on the radio but again not seen them so will again seek them out on YouTube |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM I'm surprised Joe, I would have thought you would know of Linda Kelly. Her songs are true folk songs. Songs of the fishing industry especially around Hull and Grimsby. Hazel Richings is one of the finest singers I have ever had the good fortune to hear. A joy. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Iains Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM Cara were very talented composers, besides giving some stunning performances. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM Yes agree Megson are very good - some excellent songs too and I think they have improved with time. I haven't seen Hissyfit or Cara unfortunately |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:38 PM Well Winter Wilson have already been mentioned. Megson are superb, going back Cara were utterly brilliant as were Hissyfit to mention just 4. There are a myriad of others. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:36 PM That should have been 'current artists' obviously! Particularly interested if people have come across younger artists who are skilled in this respect as lack of stagecraft is one criticism often directed towards young performers. One positive example I can think of are the lads in Granny's Attic. The Young 'Uns also had it from early on |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Joe G Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:33 PM Ok everyone let's not encourage Jim to continue to subvert the thread with his totally erroneous impressions of the current folk scene. He distorts everything people, mostly with incredible patience and tolerance, tell him so there really is no point in continuing the dialogue To get back to the topic, I responded to Jack earlier with a list of artists who I consider to have an excellent repartee with their audiences. Any other examples? |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:19 PM 200 clubs and sessions in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire ALONE would suggest to anyone with an ounce of intellience that the folk music scene in the UK is still quite vibrant and alive. The only conclusion one can reasonably reach is that Carroll does not possess an ounce of intelligence. The input of the posters on her Steve, Ray, Joe, big Al at all is being denegrated by this man. Wht do we tolerate his uninformed diatribes. They are uninformed Carroll, by your own admission you haven't set foot in a folk club for decades. Pull your ******** horns in until you visit a few clubs in the UK, or preferably leave this thread entirely, you obviously know **** all about the subject matter. |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:08 PM Well, I did try my best. Sorry people. Jim. In deference to your years of experience and obvious sensibilities I shall no longer argue with you on this. You are right about many things but so wrong headed about this there is no point in wasting any more time. Good luck with your one man campaign. I hope someone is still listening. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 20 Nov 19 - 03:05 PM Give what a try Dave - Neil Young, folk heavy metal, insipid limp-wristed singing of navel gazing non folk songs... all of which have been put up as alternatives to Walter - et al.... no thanks very much If you take on the name of something as specific as folk song than, out of common decency, if nothing else, you need to take responsibility for what you have taken on or you need to get off the pot Simply this is not what you will find at folk clubs and sessions, Jim ~ please go out and find a typical folk club or mixed session and have a listen ~I am sure you will be surprised (or not) Ray |
| Share Thread: |