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BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out

keberoxu 31 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM
Iains 31 Oct 19 - 01:08 PM
Mr Red 31 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM
keberoxu 31 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM
BobL 01 Nov 19 - 04:48 AM
DaveRo 01 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM
Raedwulf 01 Nov 19 - 07:26 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 19 - 10:03 AM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM
DMcG 01 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM
Iains 01 Nov 19 - 12:52 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 19 - 01:29 PM
Raedwulf 01 Nov 19 - 03:29 PM
Iains 02 Nov 19 - 03:52 AM
Iains 02 Nov 19 - 03:57 AM
Raedwulf 02 Nov 19 - 08:02 AM
DMcG 02 Nov 19 - 08:05 AM
Raedwulf 02 Nov 19 - 08:41 AM
DMcG 02 Nov 19 - 09:37 AM
DMcG 04 Nov 19 - 03:37 PM
Iains 04 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM
Nigel Parsons 04 Nov 19 - 04:44 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 19 - 05:00 PM
Raedwulf 06 Nov 19 - 02:25 PM

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Subject: BS: departure of John Bercow
From: keberoxu
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 12:15 PM

From US network CNN, a parting interview
with outgoing Speaker, John Bercow.   

John Bercow interviewed by Bianca Nobilo


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Subject: RE: BS: Order! Order!
From: Iains
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 01:08 PM

Much as I dislike saying it, he did much to support backbenchers. Some of his more recent innovations were not so well received. As a speaker
his impartiality was questionable at times. History will probably be a better judge of his actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Order! Order!
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM

He is a politician. History has prejudged him. He cannot be anything other than biased, he is human. But if he rubbed any of his colleagues up the wrong way he must have been doing his job well. His job was to pronounce if any actions were not legit. And we have seen enough of those recently.

His replacement will have a difficult task ahead of them. What with the hung parliament we are going to have. You think not? Think again, what have we got right now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Order! Order!
From: keberoxu
Date: 31 Oct 19 - 04:28 PM

The loss of Jo Cox brings him to tears.
Sounds like a human being, at least,
from this far across the pond.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: BobL
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 04:48 AM

Living in his constituency, I shall now have to decide whether to vote for him (assuming he stands for re-election) or one of the others. Bloody good constituency MP, but have to see what his position is on the dreaded B****t.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: DaveRo
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 05:16 AM

He's not standing in this election.
Bloody good constituency MP
I've read that it's a disadvantage having the speaker as your MP. How does he or she raise highly party-political issues in Parliament? Outsourcing of a NHS service to a US private company for example. Were there local examples?

I've always lived in safe Tory seats, but both my previous and current MPs got deselected (Gaulk and Greg Clark) - so feel a bit happier about that ;)


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 07:26 AM

I thought he was a bloody good Speaker. Frankly, if he's got up the noses of the MP's, and especially if he got up party leader's noses, which he did (both) often enough, he was doing something right.

It's the BBC thing - if you are trying to be impartial (which is the Speaker's job, which the BBC is supposed to be (and in my experience, generally is)), then anyone who IS partial sees you as being On The Other Side. And, in the modern media world, declares so loudly & a shit storm ensues.

I hope the next Speaker is as firm with them, and as generally good natured & humoured, as Bercow was. I think that's a fair assessment / tribute to the rather thankless job he's done.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 10:03 AM

I agree with all that, and I'd add that he was an effective champion of parliamentary democracy as well during a time when party leaders were often trying to sidestep parliament (on that score, good old Gina Miller too). Always on the side of MPs. I've seen no evidence that his personal views have ever corrupted his dealings in the House, despite what brexiteers like to claim about his bias (which they never back up with examples, I notice).

His rather short stature (to say the least) makes it difficult to characterise him as a towering figure. :-) The old story is that he went out into the car park outside Parliament to find that someone had dinged his car and driven off. Scrutinising the damage, he said "I'm not happy." His colleague replied, "Which one are you then?"


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM

(which they never back up with examples, I notice).
The examples were so blatant only a two year old would require help to recognize them. The zombie parliament of the last few months is directly attributable to his partisanship. His choice of wrecking amendments to paralyze the house and allowing a rabble to force through bills into law is but two of his reckless choices. There are numerous others.

Just think how the guardian would be squealing were the boot on the other foot and PM Corbyn was being frustrated at every turn with his parliamentary agenda.(and do not waste your time trying to deny it, it would insult our intelligence.)

His behaviour has blown major holes in the way our democracy works and ultimately will force a written constitution and the means to clip the wings of a future rogue speaker. The power of constituency recall also needs to be addressed to give the electorate more control over errant MPs. Losing the whip should automatically trigger a by election.
MP selection also needs to be reviewed. Oxbridge - Advisor -MP as a career progression hardly gives any experience of anything.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM

He did an excellent job in balancing the rights of Parliament against an over mighty executive. I am just as opposed to an over mighty Labour or LibDem or anyone else as a Tory one.

Which amendments the Speker selects do not cause a zombie Parliament because if the amendment is not a good one people will not vote for it. Conversely, if it a good one it is right Parliament votes for it.   There is only a problem with that if you have a minority Governement but try to run it as if you have a majority. To run a minority government sensibly, you negotiate to find common ground which means the bills put forward are largely agreed beforehand and so rarely become subject to contentious amendments.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Iains
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 12:52 PM

I could agree with you to an extent but the dreadful fixed term parliament act tied the PM's hands and parliament was dictating terms, not the official government. An election should have been held months ago.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:29 PM

I seem to recall that, as almost his last action, he disallowed amendments on the voting age and on voting rights for EU citizens in the UK, either one of which would have completely scuppered Johnson's election motion had they passed. I'd say that he showed considerable integrity in making those two decisions, even though I disagreed with one of them, and they certainly helped Johnson. I'd also add that it would have been within Johnson's gift to bring that motion at any time since he became PM, but he didn't. If we want to moan about the Commons subverting democracy, well I'd contend that that's nothing when set beside the "election" of a minority government Tory PM by a few tens of thousands of mostly old, mostly white, mostly rich, mostly men. Outrage can't half be selective.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 03:29 PM

All I can say, Iain, is that I'm bloody glad you're not in charge of our parliamentary democracy. Steve & I often see eye to ear, as it were, but I think we share common ground on this one!

The fixed 5 year term is the only good thing Pig-Fucker Cameron ever did, just for a start! And you think that's dreadful?!


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 03:52 AM

It was the deputy speaker disallowed the amendments to allow 16 year old and EU nationals to vote. Do you seriously think Bercow would have done the same?
It is also necessary to point out that EU legislation permits For EU citizens the right to vote and to stand as candidate in European Parliament and municipal elections when you live in another EU country.
This does not give the right to vote in national elections.As I pointed out earlier to give such voting rights to resident EU nationls would confer on them greater voting rights than EU nationals.
The 5 year fixed term was introduced to stop the minority member of the former coalition government from being double crossed. It should have been time limited because it reduced parliament to a mere talking shop. I cannot see any benefit in that!
There would be far less dispute on this forum if facts posted were accurate.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 03:57 AM

Correction.

This does not give the right to vote in national elections.As I pointed out earlier to give such voting rights to resident EU nationls would confer on them greater voting rights than UK nationals.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:02 AM

The primary purpose of the government should be to govern. It isn't. Democracy & party politics means that the primary purpose of the ruling party is to get re-elected.

The 5 year fixed term stops the government from fiddling around calling an election that suits them best; when they're doing well in the polls, when something has happened that makes them popular (Milk-snatcher & the Falklands springs to mind), when they've just tried to bribe the voters. It's a measure I thoroughly approve of & one that should have been brought in years ago. I'm astonished that this aspect of it doesn't seem to have occurred to you.

And I presume your EU comments are directed at Steve, since I never said anything about it.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:05 AM

What caught me a out a bit about the Fixed Term Parliament Act is how it can in effect set aside on any occasion you fancy by having a simple majority vote on the proposition 'it does not apply this time.' Rather draws the tooth of the act, does it not?


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 08:41 AM

Only if we see it used that way, D. I thought Boris just tried to do that & got voted down? So it might be a wobbly tooth, but it isn't a drawn one!


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 09:37 AM

He did try that, and because Labour supported an election it got through. But in theory it could could have got through even if they opposed it.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:37 PM

Lyndsay Hoyle has replaced Bercow. I can't say I know much about him, and if you look at his voting record the most common entry is 'Did not vote.' I would hazard a guess that is because he was previously deputy speaker so would certainly not vote when he was in the chair: there may also be restrictions on other occasions due to being deputy. But is does make him a little hard to predict for us amateurs.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Iains
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 03:55 PM

Out of all the candidates on offer, in my view, Hoyle was ahead of the pack.His past record as deputy speaker suggests impartiality. That is an essential prerequisite for the job, especially after the antics of the previous speaker.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 04:44 PM

Raedwulf:
(Milk-snatcher & the Falklands springs to mind),
It seems that however long ago it was, and however inaccurate, some people just won't move on.
Mrs Thatcher (Secretary of state for education) did have the provision of free milk to school children over 7 stopped. But this was virtually a continuation of previous government policy. In 1968 the Labour government cut free milk to all secondary schools. Of course, this fact will be ignored by Labour supporters who believe it is only the Conservatives who would do something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 19 - 05:00 PM

Well I was at secondary school in 1968 and I was just about the only bugger who ever drank the milk. There was tons of it left over every day, crate piled upon crate going to waste. I don't recall much of a furore when it was stopped. It certainly stopped me needing a piss half way through period 3. We could do a great trick with those foil caps, turning them into mini-flying saucers with a tweak of the fingers.

Sir Lindsay is a bluff Northern Labour man who went to school in the same town as me, just a few years later. All grand signs. I think we'll all love him except for Tories.

Well, Nigel, Labour started lots of things that I bet they wish they hadn't. Prescription charges, tuition fees, academies, private finance initiatives in the NHS, zero hours contracts. I'm sure you'll tell me if I've forgotten anything. But it's not so much any of that, it's what the Tories gleefully did with them afterwards. Which is the point really. If we're honest.


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Subject: RE: BS:Order! Order! - UK Speaker John Bercow bows out
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:25 PM

Typical Nigel - you've pulled out one tiny little quote from a post & totally missed or, more likely, deliberately ignored the actual point being made in the hope of scoring a point & you think no-one else will notice...

As for some people won't move on, why should anyone else when you never do, Nigel? Can't otherwise be bothered to argue the toss with you because I've seen too many of your posts to think that's other than a complete waste of my time.


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