BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 09:45 AM

The election is over.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 09:41 AM

They have the wrong person in charge and now they want to have that cow who sounds like somebody's cleaner!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 06:07 AM

I am sure there are sections of the Government that have as little respect for the Queen's Speech role in setting out what the Government will do as they have for the rest of the constraints on the executive.

If you do not like it I suggest you purge labour of the yobbos of momentum and the marxists and take back control of the party. As an opposition they are a veritable waste of space. As it stands you are powerless to even introduce commas into the proposed legislation.

I do not regard that as a healthy situation for anyone!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 05:26 AM

It shall come to pass depite your lefty screeching.

Quite possibly. But that does not alter whether it was in the Queen's Speech. I am sure there are sections of the Government that have as little respect for the Queen's Speech role in setting out what the Government will do as they have for the rest of the constraints on the executive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 05:11 AM

Saw that Raggy. I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 05:01 AM

Backwoodsman, I have linked to an article about this on the broken government pledges thread. As one of the mantras of the right was "take back control" I consider this sale to be a broken pledge.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 05:00 AM

In the immortal words of Al Jolson - “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet!”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:56 AM

What was that horse-shit the Brexit-Bunch were rattling on about - something about ‘Taking Back Control’?

Only a week after winning the election, the Self-Servative government starts selling off our defence systems - Cobham sold for £4 billion to Advent International, a US Private Equity Firm (who will, no doubt, titivate it up a bit and sell it on at a huge profit to any old Tom, Dick, or Vladimir).

Take Back Control my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:55 AM

But trying to link new security measures with trying people who wish to stay in the EU for treason is probably even a stretch for the GAP himself. Probably best left to the spokesman from the now disgraced UKIP party who made the remark in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:47 AM

No probs D. The comments were still valid. My last post was referring to the comment Of course updating the treason laws was in the Queen's speech and, as you point out, there was no such statement made. But as it was a supporter of the liar in chief who made the comment I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:46 AM

Oh Dear! You can lead a horse to water..................

The Independent
New treason laws, enforced registration for “foreign agents” and toughened powers under the Official Secrets Act are being considered by the government.

Measures announced in the Queen’s Speech were framed as a response to the Salisbury novichok attack, but advocates for the historical crime of treason have focused on British Isis fighters.

Boris Johnson told parliament that the proposals were “developed to tackle hostile activity conducted by foreign states”.

Keep up with the narrative boyos. Whether you believe it or not is a total irrelevancy
It shall come to pass depite your lefty screeching. We won! Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:30 AM

Apologies for giving the wrong link, folks. All my initial checking was against the text of the Queen's Speech as published in the Daily Mail, as it happens. But I decided that the link I actually published should be to the official version, and that is where I picked up the wrong link.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:29 AM

and the brexit supporters talk about democracy and conveniently ignore Scotland and their democratic rights and ignore the fact that under proprtional representation the electoral comnut that labour and lib dems [let alone greens or plaid cynmru acheived]outnumbered the conservatives , there were more people voted for labour and lib dems.
tell democracy to the people of scotland, and stop telling lies about democratic rights , bloody hypocrites

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:17 AM



Of course it wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:16 AM


The Queen's Speech
…
Measures will be developed to tackle hostile activity conducted by foreign states



Measures by foreign states are not treason, sorry. None of the other commentary was in the Queen's speech.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM

TheGuardian:
Spying There are proposals to significantly beef up existing espionage laws in the aftermath of the novichok nerve agent attack in Salisbury. One plan under consideration is to adopt a form of registration for foreign agents, updating the Official Secrets Act and treason laws. This is to make it tougher for adversaries operating in the UK.

The Times
Britain’s archaic treason laws could be updated to enable the prosecution of those who leak secrets to “hostile states”. The move comes amid concern about the activities of Russia and China in the West.The government announced in the Queen’s Speech that it was “considering the case” for updating Britain’s 650-year-old treason laws as part of a new espionage bill.

The Journal IE
The British government will look at whether the Official Secrets Act needs overhauling in the wake of the Salisbury chemical weapons attack as well as considering whether there is a case for updating the treason laws.

The Queen's Speech
My Government is committed to a fair justice system that keeps people safe. My ministers will establish a Royal Commission to review and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the criminal justice process. New sentencing laws will ensure the most serious violent offenders, including terrorists, serve longer in custody. New laws will require schools, police, councils and health authorities to work together to prevent serious crime. My Government will ensure those charged with knife possession face swift justice and that the courts work better for all those who engage with them, including victims of domestic abuse. Legislation will be brought forward to support victims of crime and their families. Measures will be developed to tackle hostile activity conducted by foreign states.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:07 AM

Your link seems to be to the October one D but the comments still apply. Hopefully this is the most recent

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 03:52 AM

Of course updating the treason laws was in the Queen's speech, but the lefties are so busy spitting bile they probably missed it.

I am not spitting bile, but here is the full text of the Queen's Speech, courtesy of the Government website.

The word Treason, as in Treason Act, is not in it.   Perhaps you would highlight the sentences where you think it says the Treason Act will be amended?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 01:58 AM

Happy Brexmas!!!


The 12 days of Brexmas

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 02:28 PM

I think tattoos will be compulsory but they will not be flags. More likely a series of numbers on the forearm.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 02:13 PM

I don't have to cast any net. I just have to google the first few words of anything in your posts that looks remotely literate. It confirms your dishonesty in parroting out right-wing tripe as your own opinion, routinely failing to credit your copy and pasting. We already know that you're an alt-right plant here. We now see that you have no actual opinions of your own. What a shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 02:07 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:10 PM

The vast bulk of the post at 12.14 PM Is a straight lift from Daily Express, once again unattributed by this poster.


Garbage. Shameless, shameful garbage.

Oh well here you can have the same from the guardian. July 2018

Renew treason laws to jail enemies of the state for life, says thinktank
Policy Exchange report says Britons who betray nation through acts of terror should be dealt with as traitors."

Of course updating the treason laws was in the Queen's speech, but the lefties are so busy spitting bile they probably missed it.

No fool like old fools!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:51 PM

I guess recent events have forced the ex schoolteacher to cast his net beyond the Guardian. There is hope yet!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:39 PM

we could have 'traitor' tattooed on our foreheads while waiting trial for treason. though that would be fascism. and anyone guilty of advocating stuff like that would be guilty of hate speech and barred from any online forum

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:26 PM

”It also means those in future actively working undemocratically against UK through extreme EU loyalty.”

There is quite a long list of those allegedly conspiring with the EU to frustrate Brexit.
Trying them all for treason seems a good idea to me.
Reasserting sovereignty and taking back control, and a whole rake of prisoners in the tower into the bargain. Stirring times!”

Garbage. Shameless, shameful garbage.
‘Semen’ Staines must be very proud of you - probably choking the chicken in celebration right now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:10 PM

The vast bulk of the post at 12.14 PM Is a straight lift from Daily Express, once again unattributed by this poster.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:03 PM

Tattoos? How about Decals

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 12:53 PM

Will patriotic flag tattoos be optional or compulsory...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 12:14 PM

Boris is said to be reviewing the Treason Act. It needs it.
Longstanding Leave campaigner David Campbell Bannerman, who is also a former UKip deputy leader, made his comment in a Tweet which reflects growing public anger at the way some leading Remainers have taken the side of Brussels in the Brexit negotiations.

Mr Campbell Bannerman Tweeted: “It is about time we brought the Treason Act up to date and made it apply to those seeking to destroy or undermine the British state.

“That means extreme jihadis. It also means those in future actively working undemocratically against UK through extreme EU loyalty.”

There is quite a long list of those allegedly conspiring with the EU to frustrate Brexit.
Trying them all for treason seems a good idea to me.
Reasserting sovereignty and taking back control, and a whole rake of prisoners in the tower into the bargain. Stirring times!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 10:18 AM

DMcG - enjoyed that song.. I don't think I've heard it before..

she patriotically did her bit to help the war effort...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 09:55 AM

Boris passes his Brexit bill by a resounding majority in the house.
He is getting Brexit done, as promised.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 08:35 AM

Yes it is trajic but it is going to happen
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2019/12/19/amanpour-tony-blair-brexit-uk-election.cnn

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 08:05 AM

Off topic, but following from an earlier post: one of my favourite WW2 songs is The Deepest Shelter in Town. "White Cliffs of Dover" it is not. And perhaps it did make some the men who they are...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 08:00 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM
Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Any source for that claim? Or is it just more opinion paraded as fact?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:42 PM

Maybe you had to be here, robo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:20 PM

A link to the New Yorker article on the vote. Based on a phone conversation with 'David Runciman, a professor of politics at Cambridge University.' It puts a lot of responsibility for Boris' win on you guessed it, Mr. Corbyn. He's getting the same standing for the current situation as Ms. Clinton has for the current occupant.

If you try the link and it's a paywall problem, let me know and I'll include some summaries.

Right this minute there's a live debate on PBS with only seven Democratic candidates and they are doing a good job of discussing issues and standings. Any one of them would be a good alternative to the current occupant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:36 PM

Steve - fer instance..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZlFBSRrSR0

When I was just a nipper, that's one of my dad's 78s that made me the man I am now...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:22 PM

You do have a point. But he's poison. That's the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:19 PM

Steve - yes.. obviously...!!!

.. 'he' [or 'they'] is probably that and more besides...
All the more to take the piss out of...

How would Britain have coped with the war if our grandparents didn't have a lively sense of humour
cruelly mocking h1tler and the n@zis...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:03 PM

He's no pantomime Tory, pfr. He's proto-BNP and he's a far-right plant. Know thine enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:59 PM

"Control of our money..."

Do you actually know how much of our money is tied up with the EU, Al? Well, it's approximately one percent of our GDP. That's it. Yes we are net contributors, as we are one of the larger and wealthier members. But our poorer regions (Cornwall, where I live, for example) and our farmers, who benefit from large subsidies, get some of that money back. Once we leave, the farmers will no longer get that money and the country will be in danger of turning into a huge country park. The poorer regions will no longer get those grants. The benefit of being a net contributor is that it smooths the path for easy trade deals with EU countries via the goodwill that will now be lost, and we contribute to the stability and the maintenance of democracy in those countries, a massive benefit over half a century of the common market/ EC/EU. You've swallowed the Tory brexit bullshit hook, line and sinker, Al. And you'll realise it sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:46 PM

DtG - life is shit and I need a laugh...
and a pantomime tory is as good a distraction as anything...

.. this is BS after all.. not a safe space...
Let's leave cancelling and shouting down to the immature young folks...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:16 PM

The only reason he keeps crowing is to wind you up. You know the drill, John. I know you will keep feeding him PFR and you have your reasons but maybe you can give the rest of us a break?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:11 PM

"Well if the fanatic fantasists of the hard left had accepted the referendum results and not attempted a parliamentary coup"

Iains - errmmm... don't you mean the Liberals...
who are a pain in the arse for both left and right...

and a fair few Tory wets as well who caused there share of delays for brexit..


But of cause, anyone slightly left of Lord Snooty of ye olde Somersetshire
is a raving lefty as far as you are concerned...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:57 PM

Well you’re notorious here for your 180-deg reversals and self-contradictions, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but going from “We don’t need to crow” to “Revenge is a dish best served cold” in a single move beats them all.

Get help before it’s too late.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:46 PM

"So why have you crowed so much since 13/12/19, not to mention gloated?"

Well if the fanatic fantasists of the hard left had accepted the referendum results and not attempted a parliamentary coup,I might feel a little more forgiving.


But..... Revenge is a dish best served cold

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:09 PM

Well I was paying attention Al, and I was working in the mining and mining engineering industries which you bewail and bemoan the loss of. And I’m telling you, they weren’t destroyed by the EC (as it was then), they were destroyed by a clash of political ideologies in the UK in the case of the mines, and by underinvestment and shitty industrial relations in the case of the mining engineering industry.

You know, you keep on playing the victim, pissing and moaning about being ‘patronised’ and ‘insulted’ by those who disagree with you, but how patronising and insulting do you think you are when you constantly claim that you are the only one who lived and worked through the collapse of our major industrial base and you were the only one who ‘paid attention’?

Give your head a wobble and take a good look at yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:59 PM

Al I didn't accuse all brexiteers..

just the most nasty and hostile minority of fanatics..

[however large that minority is..]


Who won't let ordinary reasonable remainers and brexiteers try to patch up differences
and become friends again...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:57 PM

"There’s only one thing more disgusting and nauseating than a bad loser, and that’s a bad winner.

And the WORST winner is the more disgusting and nauseating Boris than than bad loser Farage. ?

You guys are funny

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:48 PM

Well control of our money for a start. No more bloody patronising grants to build a sculpture or a mechanical clock with figures in towns like Sutton in Asfield were they need jobs since the mines and the mining engineering and hosiery industries went west.

But control of many other things.

You're not going to agree with me, but this attitude that all these people are deluded fantasists is what lost Corbyn so many seats.

Its a delusion that started forty years ago and seems very real to those of us who have been paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:41 PM

”We have no need to crow”

So why have you crowed so much since 13/12/19, not to mention gloated? There’s only one thing more disgusting and nauseating than a bad loser, and that’s a bad winner.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:29 PM

"but control of WHAT,precisely?"..


..their fantasies and delusions...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:24 PM


“We, the people, took back control”

Excuse this from a Yank, but control of WHAT,precisely?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:16 PM

As well as the usual insane who believe they are Napoleon and Christ,
asylums may soon need to open up a new ward for the most deluded brexiteers...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:08 PM

If we the people, having taken back control, dislike the actions of a political party we remove them via the ballot box. Ask Wurzel the goon, he has first hand experience.
We have no need to crow, we have merely to point out the salient facts:!
Democracy restored!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 01:50 PM

“We, the people, took back control”

...and handed total control to the party of the immensely wealthy, powerful elite.

There’s an old aphorism which ‘You, the people’ would do very well to keep in mind - “Act in haste, repent at leisure’.

I have a very strong suspicion that many of the crowers and gloaters currently having a good time here, on social media, and elsewhere might, in the fullness of time, rue the day they decided that ‘taking back control’ by giving their votes to a party headed by a proven habitual liar, philanderer, friend of multi-billionaire tax-dodgers, and coward was in their interests.

I hope I’m wrong. I fear I’ll be proved right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 12:16 PM

the UK Government could go down a similar route if it wished.

The impartiality of the Judiciary has not really been questioned until the antics of Gina Millar and the judgement of the blair construct of the supreme court. That is why I would prefer to revert to what was before. Had the PM retained the ability to go to the polls when he/she wished the circus of recent months would have been avoided.
The electorate held parliament accountable to their promise to deliver brexit. It was only because parliament thought itself above the people, and acted in defiance of them, that this sorry saga resulted.
As was clearly demonstrated the people have sovereignty. As will our country very shortly.
We, the people, took back control. It has a nice ring to it does it not? It is anathema to socialists and that makes it even sweeter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM

"But socialists ignore such distinctions. After all how can you have democracy with Totalitarianism?"

I just think the right's obsession with 'commie socialist totalitarianism' is just extreme nutcase paranoia
if they actually believe the shite they are constantly regurgitating to demonise anyone slightly left of centre...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:32 AM

It is worth reminding ourselves that in the US appointments to the Supreme Court are highly political, the UK Government could go down a similar route if it wished.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:29 AM

Before the supreme court was established the Law Lords performed a similar purpose. I think there were 12 of them, but I could be wrong. It was not the Lord Chancellor. And it is the Government suggesting there needs to be political involvement in appointments to the Supreme Court (or, presumably, whatever might replace it.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:20 AM

An accountable body is an elected body. An elected body only exists by permission of the electorate with a mandate renewed at regular intervals. No circle to be square just a basic understanding of how your democracy works. But socialists ignore such distinctions. After all how can you have democracy with Totalitarianism?

Are you really happy that it stuffs the supreme court (or its replacement) with hard-left judges? Or do you think they need to be more independent than that?
I have already said I would prefer the supreme court be dismantled and the Lord Chancellor revert to his previous role.
Politics has no place in the Judiciary.
The recent machinations of the supreme court were entirely political and trying to deny the democratic vote to leave the EU. No other argument can demonstrate otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 09:15 AM

"........... only an accountable body can inflict legislation on the house and subsequently on the electorate, not an un-elected rabble"

"The people are sovereign-not parliament"

Anyone like to square this circle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 09:02 AM

Naturally we disagree, Iains. Mature democracies rely on separation of powers. The more centralised the power in one individual, or that individual and his appointees, the nearer you get to some form of totalitarianism. It is the legitimate role of the courts to ensure the Government acts in a way that is lawful. It is the legitimate role of Parliament to insist it has enough time to properly scrutinise laws proposed by the Government.

Having a very large majority makes the Government better able to ensure Parliament goes along with its wishes, and indeed to introduce legislation to change the balance between its component parts. This large majority happens every so often in our voting system - it did for Blair and Thatcher, for example, so it is not unique to Johnson. What is unique, to the best of my knowledge, is that both Blair and Thatcher were very clear what they intended to do with such a majority if they got one. Johnson's pitch was notable for rarely looking beyond the end of Jan 2020. So until the Queens Speech was read today, we had little information of what he intended. I haven't had a chance to study in detail, but what I have read of it (after Jan) is mainly symbolism: there is no need to have a legal obligation to spend a certain amount on the NHS, for example: you can just spend it. That move is about sending messages, not actually doing something as such. Similarly the moves on detention for terrorists - certainly welcomed by some, but just how many people does the legislation actually affect? Not many. So again more symbolic than effective.


But to get back to the courts etc. It is always worth asking the question what happens if the roles are reversed. Suppose someday - a decade or more away if you like - a hard left government gets into power. Are you really happy that it stuffs the supreme court (or its replacement) with hard-left judges? Or do you think they need to be more independent than that?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:36 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM
Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Any source for that claim? Or is it just more opinion paraded as fact?

Even the BBC says: Worst ever month for A&E
Overall just 81.4% of A&E patients were seen within four hours last month - that is the worst performance since the target was introduced in 2004.
And if 81.4% is the worst since the target was introduced in 2004 then your figure of 75% seems rather dubious!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:35 AM

@DMcG. Government leads the agenda, government leads the house. Parliament is there to dispute, refute,or pass legislation. The Lords is there to review legislation with a fine tooth comb. They may propose amendments, not prevent legislation.
There is an old maxim no taxation without representation. Turn this around and you come up with the idea that only an accountable body can inflict legislation on the house and subsequently on the electorate, not an un-elected rabble. The courts have no role in parliament, that is the role of parliamentarians.
Had the corrosive speaker not enabled, and had the PM retained the remit to call an election this circus of the last few months would never have happened.
The electorate voted out in the referendum.b Certain   MPs thought to frustrate the will of the people. The people are sovereign-not parliament. Those that disputed this concept are now cast to the four winds. Rightly so.
Next the meddling Courts need to be put firmly back in their place and prevented from playing politics ever again. This would be best achieved by dismantling blairs supreme court and revering to past practise.
It is not a question of the courts or parliament restricting the government of the day, it is a clear question of preventing either body ever subverting the government again. If Parliament disagrees with the government they can topple it if powerful enough. The ballot box within parliament or the ballot box of the electorate has alays resolved these questions in the past.
No one should ever try to ride roughshod over the people, or try ti frustrate a government carrying out the wishes of the people.
This election has writ this principle in letters large.
The arrogance that was Soubry,Anna Soubry, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve not onlt were booted out by the PM but infinitely more satisfying booted out by the electorate.
The only lesson to take away from this is that the people will not be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:28 AM

Bonz - does private medical insurance provide emergency cover
for older folks falling and breaking a hip..
or would they still need NHS A&E...???

Take care this winter...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:20 AM

Iains - the lefties get worse, I wallow in their defeat!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM

Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 07:56 AM

Anyone recall hearing about this bad news in the lead up to the General Election?

Me neither.

Mind you, the Tories would have just claimed it’s the fault of the last Labour government which lost power ten years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:36 AM

Hidden away on page 48 of the Conservative manifesto is this: “After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts”.
Never again will a rabble dictate to parliament.

Nigel and I had a discussion on this quite a few days ago now in one of the two Brexit threads. I find it odd you seem to have just found out about it.

You seem to be on my side of the argument, which is that amendments to 'the broader aspects' will aim to reduce the ability of the courts or Parliament restricting what the Government chooses to do.

Nigel did not agree it meant that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:36 AM

So can we narrow that down to which European countries
don't have council houses, free education, free health care...???

..and which even better European countries we should envy and want to move to,
if we could...???

Then once that's established, determine why some Europeans have been given the impression
that ours is such a marvelous utopia to want to live in...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM

No one is calling you racist for voting leave, Al. They are calling you racist because you say East Europeans are criminals and immigrants are scroungers. A fact you seem to be trying to avoid but don't worry, I have the two statements copied. Here they are again

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston

then along comes the free movement of European citizens. they all want council houses, free education, free health care.

Rest assured that I will remind you of them every time you play the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:33 AM

Iains:

You need to get out of your shell. Tell people what you really think! Possibly an assertiveness training class, although if you are on the right side of the pond you might have other words for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:29 AM

Worzel's winning words. REAL CHANGE (He got that all right!)


https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf
Labour's death warrant in 107 pages

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM .............................?

The prosecco kid strikes again.
The tabloids have ensured that his legacy is tarnished

I suggest you read the CV of the marxist loon, when you sober up.   His own actions condemn him. But continue self denial, it supports the valiant brexiteers.

Now for a little cheer me up posting from the gruniard:
Hidden away on page 48 of the Conservative manifesto is this: “After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts”.
Never again will a rabble dictate to parliament. All the leading lights of this movement have been thoroughly rejected by the electorate, and the poison dwarf who enabled them cast from his throne.
Even bliar blair admitted compo was poison. Let us hope chew on lemons thornberry is made leader. That will guarantee another 40 years in the wilderness for labour.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:02 AM

A different view from George Monbiot here, talking about the way to change our broken ‘top-down’ system of politics.

‘Political Re-wilding’. Sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:09 PM

Iains is indulging in the classic tory victory dance
of continuing to kick their opponent lifeless
after they sucker punched him down to the ground...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:58 PM

I know you're ignoring me and that's okay, Steve. It's a tactic like any other, sorta like no fairness in politics. I'm just taking a moment to point it out. There are some arguments and opinions you are not ready to respond to. Or too condescending to acknowledge.

Iain. Your post confirmed my opinion. You're getting your own back. As Homer Simpson said to Montgomery Burns, "The classy thing would be not to draw attention to it!"

So I guess neither of us are that classy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:19 PM

There's a bit of a fine line to tread for Labour. Jezza redefined where Labour should be: none of your metro elite shite, plenty of proper socialism, nationalising the friggin' sharks in the energy industry who've been ripping us off for years, etc etc. The tabloids have ensured that his legacy is tarnished. So be it. But we don't need to ditch that principled approach. We need a leader who will respect that legacy and move it forward. If the people don't like it, tough shit. At least we've stuck to our principles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:06 PM

there was actually something quite likable about that Owen Smith,
but he's buggerd off out of it for whatever to where ever...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM

I'm amazed at your Damascene conversion, Bonzo, let alone your solicitous concern for poor old Labour...

But Hilary and co have had their day. Ain't happening. Half a million people like me will pick the next leader, and I suspect that 0.00983% of us would support Hilary.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:54 PM

The best man for the job Hilary Benn is sadly not standing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM

You're severely neurotic and you are clearly a right-wing plant. Who is it: Tommy? Semen Staines?? How does it feel to be a poodle? I'm researching the wordings of your posts at the moment, going back a fair while, comparing and contrasting (so don't even begin to think you can modify now), in order to see what you're copy and pasting. It isn't looking good for you so far, but you know me, I'm thorough and I don't spill the beans until I'm sure...

Found any good new cellphone masts lately? Or would you prefer to post from your home computer?? Thought not! Maybe you live in a cardboard box...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:36 PM

If pure as driven snow, why is the equality and human rights commission
investigating Labour. Do you think they believe it is racist antisemitic crap?
I hardly think so.

But rest assured your continual denial makes your party unelectable and even if Corbyn is cast aside there is no replacement with any credibility. Until you purge momentum and all the other extremists your cause is lost.
I believe selling the idea that compo had a lifelong opposition to racism and injustice is a nonstarter and easily disproved. The lefty bubble of delusion is still riding strong.

Believe me, your inability to accept what everyone is telling you suits me and the brexiteers down to the ground. The smug certainty of the opinions offered by the likes of shaw and the gnome and their constant string of abuse lost the election.
Their inability to be 'umble will lose the next election.
and the one after ..............etc

Robomatic. I have had constant abuse off the cabal here for years.
I was right, they were wrong. Hardly surprising I wish to rub their noses in it for a while.
They and their remainiac ilk have blown away 3.5 years
by refusing to accept the democratic vote,
by attempting to veto no deal they destroyed our bargaining position, they tried to subvert democracy by hijacking Parliament with the collusion of the poison dwarf bercow.
They tried to stop brexit by going to court every 5 minutes.
Well it seems the electorate agreed with me in spades and annihilated
labour. Democracy has been restored.
When the remainiacs man up and accept defeat and stop blaming everyone else but themselves, then I will stop crowing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:24 PM

I suppose they wore Salford socks in Salford docks!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:22 PM

I agree with your first paragraph completely, Pete. I joined Labour when Corbyn was elected. I'm not resigning any time soon. We couldn't and can't win with him at the helm, best candidate for PM by a country mile though he was. I think we need Rebecca Long-Bailey, a grounded, young, working-class northern woman who will shed all those Corbyn negatives whilst maintaining his legacy. She is more than a match for Johnson because she comes from her heart and she keeps her cool. He's shit scared of people like her. He can't handle principle. And I'd back Angela Rayner for deputy. They are great mates and would work well together, even though Angela is no Corbynite. But not bloody Yvette, please. And Kier, good bloke though he is, will be characterised as a remainer man-in-suit who has splinters up his arse from fence-sitting over Jeremy. Emily Thornberry is a very unattractive figure who says bloody daft things, and Jess, though confident and direct, has dissed Jezza, so not her. So that's my pitch. As for your second paragraph, I'll have to have a think.

And I'm biased in favour of Becky because she's the MP for Salford, where me mum comes from, and her dad worked in Salford socks, just like my grandad. That'll do me! Dirty Old Town!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:54 PM

'no-one called corbyn a racist' ? really? despite his lifelong opposition to racism and injustice this 'racist, anti-semitic' crap was one of the most repeated and most effective insults in the whole campaign

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM

I don't know. I just keep thinking what a bloody tragedy we lost John Smith when we did.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 PM

Hoe true is it Corbyn has wanted to step down over the last few years,
but kept getting persuaded to stick it out...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:12 PM

I support. Labour but I get very pissed off with people who put their fantasies of Utopia before the practicality of getting elected.

I think most of the abuse came from Corbynista/Momentum lot PFR.

No one called Corbyn a racist - like I have been called repeatedly on this thread. And to be honest - this is just small appetiser for what has been going on FB.

A study from Lancaster University (which is broadly supportive of Labour, certainly anti-tory) stated one of the main reasons labour lost was because 'it portrayed people with legitimate and understandable concerns about EU immigratiom as knuckle dragging racists.'

That's what those two have done here and its why Labour lost. Boundless arrogance. The besetting middle class moral failure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:06 PM

Steve:

Thanks for the explication. I don't agree with you but I understand you slightly more better. Might be worthwhile putting together a thread on Marxism as its own subject. I don't know if I'm up to it. My main point which I'm sure you understood was to the matter of perception. "Get Brexit Done" is as you said stupidly dense but it is also genius in its encapsulated appeal. To quote Mel Brooks from one of his bits "I said 'It's too simple. I didn't know then it was eloquent.'"

Iains:

Normally when you get criticized by the usual gang (not me) it's for simply stating a case that many folks in this forum disagree with. But now you are simply crowing over a perceived 'win' rather than explaining WHY it is a win or examining why it might indeed be pyrrhic (Winning the argument while the UK becomes the nonK).

You're all mostly stuck together on an island. Make it a proud island and not a messy lifeboat. You know 'Keep calm and carry on' and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:52 PM

i've supported corbyn - he's why i rejoined the party. i thought the manifesto was great and good to see the party proposing sensible, moderate policies that do have plenty of popular support. however, there was so much shite thrown at him that inevitably a load of it stuck to him and , and us. the baseless anti-semitic slurs for example seemed to hit home while the disgraceful windrush situation, the tories' hostile environment and their cosying up to-and selling arms to- any nasty dictator who wanted them was always presented to us as non-issues. in fact, it was disgusting institutional racism over many years - a wee bit more serious than a passing comment about a possibly dodgy picture 25 years ago.

and yet..... corbyn should have known, unfair as it was, a load of the shite had stuck to him and it did weigh him, and us, down. he could have gone 18 months back and been well-respected for a job well-done. is it only me that thinks that proposing to be prime minister at 75 years old while rightly condemning the tory policy of deferring retirement til folk are 75 is ridiculous? he should have left - and i'm angry with him that he didn't step aside.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:10 PM

Al, are you SURE you support Labour?

Every one of your posts sounds increasingly like you are Iains little clone.

If that sounds like an insult it is meant to be.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:51 PM

Al - I'm less inclined to be so critical of Corbyn...

He was almost a great leader, better than expected..

But not strong enough to withstand the relentless crusades from all sides
to destroy him..

He was way to reasonable and nice, too weak in constantly appeasing his false accusers,
rather than standing up firm and fighting back when needed...
He let some very vile enemies get away with too much for far too long...!!!

That's what exasperated me about him...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

Big Al you should encourage the woke wazzocks. Their views are poison to most of the electorate. If they cannot accept their stupidity labour will never be in power again.
I recommend you look at some of the aussie youtube clips of sky news. They pull no punches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZQEU5uxXZ0

I like the crack about hugh grant inducing projectile vomiting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:34 PM

Margaret Hodge re-elected... oh well..

is Barking a Labour safe seat, or a Hodge safe seat...???

She'll have to retire,
or get kicked out of the party for disloyalty and divisiveness eventually..

Good luck to the next party leader facing this problem...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:27 PM

Steve you are more gullible and naive than thee most stupid person who voted Tory if you believed Corbyn could win.

Try to absorb how bloody naive and gullible that is. Think about it for 24 hours before coming up with all this self righteous rubbish.

I know that you and Dave couldn't face the fact a more considered and intelligent approach was called for. But that was the case. Calling people like me racist - long time Labour voters is just the tip of this arrogance iceberg.

Corbyn in a way is not to blame. Its people like you two - who managed to persuade him to provide BJ with softest target imaginable.

Corbyn won't take ownership. He blames the press- even though hardly anyone reads them. Perhaps you've got more intellectual imtegrity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:46 AM

The list seems to have stopped at the fake news of Matt Hancock's aide being punched. Not sure if they will update it now the liar in chief has been given free reign say what he likes. I do hope they continue it but even if they don't it is always worth reminding people anyway

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 08:16 AM

Self delusion is a joy to watch, especially when it is the loopy left, who cannot follow their own advice.

No russians this time round? Guess we have to blame it all on wurzel the goon then!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM

First day at nursery :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:46 AM

It is getting funnier by the post isn't it. Keep it up Steve, he's getting into stroke territory. Have you seen the brexit thread too? Apoplectic on there. If everyone else was to ignore him too I don't think he'd see the year out :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:09 AM

Stop whining shaw. you lost. get over it. No one wants to listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:00 AM

Corbyn identifies himself as a democratic socialist. During the seventies I allied myself (though never joined, as I don't wish to be bound by ideology) to a true Marxist group in London trade union politics, along with Blair Peach and others. We regarded Jeremy Corbyn and his allies, who were our contemporaries, as non-revolutionaries a bit to the right of us, and they in turn distanced themselves from us. Call me a Marxist and I may or may not wear it as a badge of honour. Mass media calling Corbyn a Marxist, unreconstructed or not (in itself a pejorative word), is both an intended demonising slur and a downright lie.

As for democracy, here are some things that are not undemocratic:

Suggesting that the LibDems disband

Suggesting that the LibDems split the vote

Criticising the LibDems for splitting the vote

The LibDems declaring that they would scrap brexit without a vote if they got power

Calling for a third referendum (the second one was on June 23 2016 and I don't recall the brexit brigade objecting to THAT one)

Here are some things that are undemocratic:

Deliberately oversimplifying extremely complex issues by sloganising ("get brexit done")

Lying about what voting in 2016 meant ("the people voted to leave the single market and customs union" when you can bet your bottom dollar that the vast majority of the electorate didn't have a clue what they were or even knew of their existence at all)

Lying that the referendum delivered "the will of the people" when only 38% of the electorate and 25% of the population voted leave

Lying about the amount of money per week we would save by leaving

Lying about immigration by using a photograph of mostly non-white refugees

Lying about controlling our borders when we don't control the non-EU immigration that we COULD control and when we can't control people leaving

Lying about "regaining sovereignty" when leaving means handing much control over trade to the US and China

Lying about future border controls between the UK, Northern Ireland and the Republic

Lying about the future numbers of nurses and new hospitals

Lying about Corbyn's character, that he's an unreconstructed Marxist, that he hates Jews, that he's the friend of terrorists, etc. (I'll stop there...)

If you cynically lie to the electorate you are subverting democracy by trying to give people (who are largely gullible and politically naive) false choices at the election. The downright lies I've listed, and there were plenty of others, are not the same thing at all as putting your best foot forward and indulging in a bit of spin. I witnessed "news"papers propagating these lies time and time again and I witnessed BBC interviewers routinely failing to pull up Tories when they were lying. Lying with impunity is a very worrying development in western politics and is the one thing that will ultimately see off democracy altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:50 AM

Just cant help getting it wrong

You will be needing more than workout tools to sort out the worn out tool that is Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:03 AM

The rest of the verse quite apt to

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools
Or see the things you've give your life to broken
And stoop to build them up with work out tools

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 AM

There were plenty of overlapping causes of the loss of Labour seats, some to do with internal factors and some external. The external ones include the way the LibDems led to a split vote and that the vagaries of first past the post can turn a relatively small change in percentage vote into a large difference in the number of seats. We usually look at that in terms of how difficult it is for small parties to gain seats, but it is also true with the battle between larger parties. It is true elsewhere as well - the percentage/number of voters change in the US is usually quite small, but gives big swings in the governing parties.

But that these external factors exist does not diminish the importance of the internal ones. Undoubtedly one was that strong Remainers often thought that Labour was secretly a Leave party (and the LibDems hammered that Labour was not a party of Remain, for example). At the same time, strong Leavers thought it was secretly a remain party.   But that is not the whole story either. There will be plenty of arguments go on inside the party, and as I said somewhere, I don't mind if this takes a year, because clarity at the end is so important, and even if everyone were united now, the 80 majority can overrule them.

Also important is the 'Get Brexit Done' mantra. One of the less observed effects of that is that it releases Labour from its attempt to ride two horses. Not entirely, but to a large extent. Arguments for or against some aspect of leaving are likely to be less inflammatory, for example.

It is also clear that the PM wants to try to keep as many of the 'red wall' wards voting Tory as possible. I suspect that will give them benefits that they would not have got with a narrow Tory win, and very likely not with a Labour win either. A focus on local buses for example - always popular with Boris! - will have a more immediate and beneficial impact than some of the more generic policies. Also, the Queen's Speech will reportedly contain references to a bill to protect worker's rights,.I think that might not have been there at all without the red wall wards voting in numbers.


Quoting a couplet from 'If' again:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM

More from the Guardian the mouthpiece of the leftie hive mind:
Corbyn, antisemitism and Brexit: Labour MPs on why they lost

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/17/corbyn-antisemitism-and-brexit-labour-mps-on-why-they-lost
Well bless my little cotton socks! This is a narrative that runs counter to everything the lefty extremists were posting on here!

Worzel gummidge, antisemitism and a kama sutra brexit policy. How could it have possibly gone wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:41 AM

Typical leftie responses here. They simply cannot accept their insane policies directly caused their defeat. Perhaps they should take up navel gazing,   it might provide enlightenment. For as long as they try to blame external causes for their massacre they will remain in the wilderness and shrivel and die. We no longer need pay the slightest bit of attention to their whiny waffling. The electorate raised two fingers to the lefties. Payback for continuously insulting them. You would have thought those stunning tactics by the democrats that Elected Trump would have led to a few lessons learnt, but obviously not.(call people deplorable and they will say kiss my arse and vote elsewhere)
When are you going to accept your useless party lost the election all on their ownsome. When the labour heartlands voted tory to avoid putting corbyn in power it surely cannot be so hard a stretch to figure out why?
But as you are all taking your lead from the guardian the hive mind of ideology takes over and all sense goes for a hike down the road.
The only statisticto take away here is that recited by theGuardian in a rare moment of lucidity:
Boris Johnson will remain prime minister with a comfortable majority, as numerous Labour heartland seats fall to the Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:12 PM

Steve:

You did not respond to my identifying the origin of the quote of Mr. Corbyn being "an unreconstructed Marxist". My following response was that true or not, this was a matter of perception. The fact that the vote was split may be everything you say; but, unfortunately, perceived splits are a fact of life in and out of Democracy. Without Ralph Nader and the Green Party Gore would have likely won the U.S. 2000 election. Without Bernie Sanders, Hilary might have won in 2016. Or, without Hilary, Bernie might have won in 2016. Without Harald Hardrada, Harold Godwinson might have held his own at the Battle of Hastings.

Politics is sometimes fair, usually not. Democratic politics is a subset of politics, hence subject to these cruel rules.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 09:51 PM

Steve - I suggested earlier it's time the liberals called it quits;
individual members and supporters honestly deciding whether to transfer to either labour of tory for future elections...

But around here, all combined Labour and liberal votes were still nowhere sufficient to beat the tories...

Maybe because old tories continue to flock from all over the the rest of the UK,
to move to the south west to retire and fester...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:58 PM

From Simon Jenkins in the Guardian, a loose cannon of a man but who is occasionally capable of hitting the nail on the head (the bold bits are mine):

"No, it was not just Jeremy Corbyn. Last week’s crushing defeat of the left was also caused by the Liberal Democrat party splitting the vote. Yet again, by offering itself as the vote launderer of British liberalism, it has served as merely the fellow traveller of British Conservatism. Boris Johnson owes it a huge debt of gratitude.

Misreading election results – largely so as to gloat or spread blame – is the traditional folly of post-election analysts. Boris Johnson won the election with a thumping parliamentary victory, but the operative word is parliamentary. His 43.6% of the vote was ahead of Theresa May’s only by 1.2 percentage points, and dozens of his MPs were elected with less than 50% of the vote. Most of these – such as Kensington, Keighley, Bridgend and Chingford – were seats that Labour would have won had there been no Lib Dem presence.



As for the election being a “second referendum” on Brexit, anti-Brexit or second referendum parties won more votes than did Johnson, even assuming all Tories were pro-Brexit. Yes, leave voters appear to have swarmed to the Conservatives, notably in the north, and are thus probably short-term. But the Lib Dem vote soared by 1.3m or 4.1 percentage points, while Corbyn’s fell by 2.6m. Johnson’s rose by only 304,000.The reality is that the left-of-centre vote was calamitously split. Polling during the campaign saw Labour surge only when the Lib Dems appeared to collapse."

Don't be complacent now, Boris...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:33 PM

racism knows no ethnic limits. One common response of racism is reverse racism.

Note:
reverse racism = racism.

And I'd rather be dealing with some frank racism than the covering blandishments of deniers.

I'll never forget the first major network documentary about Black Muslims: The Hate That Hate Produced

Whatever the ethnicity or color, we are subject to our own background 'radiation'.

It's part of being human.

Outstanding interview on Fresh Air yesterday with Charlize Theron. She has just made a movie about the sexual harassment scandal within FOX news, related her own experience with a famous HWood director, her own family experience and her life as a young girl growing up in Apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:44 PM

There's racists.. and then there's racists...

It's a better world if no racism exists,
but a 01%, or even a 10% racist might be more tolerable than a 100% racist...???

Zero tolerance for racists is a fine idea,
but it really causes so much animosity and confrontation
in a community of diverse folks
who for the most part are fairly decent and friendly human beings...

.. and intolerance of any kind is somewhat rather shit...

Personally I cut a little slack for older less enlightened folks.

I have to with my working class council estate family...
My old mum is half East European Jewish,
and even she unconsciously says the most awkward things
in errrrmmm.. old fashioned terms about her heritage,
that a sharp eared young anti racist student
might take automatic offence at, and kick off about...

That almost happened last time I took her out shopping...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:18 PM

Bet you were a bundle of laughs. The Rosa Parks of the staffroom.

Oh great, Al - now you're making light of Rosa Parks.

Nixon:"I am not a crook"

AL: "I am not a racist"

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 01:16 PM

Interesting how many reports are hailing the Boris victory as "A kick against the establishment".

For years we used to tell ourselves that we were fighting "the establishment" when we talked politics.

I've understood events far more since realising that "the establishment" has fallen out with itself big time.

In the red (the colour doesn't matter) you have the globalists - the Blairs, Clintons, the EU Commission, Macron, Merkel, the Guardian, George Soros, the Democratic Party, CNN etc

and in the blue corner those in favour of national governments - Putin, Farage, Murdoch, Trump, Fox News, the Daily Mail, Le Pen, Boris, the late Tony Benn.

Those who think there is something left wing about the EU are equally mistaken as those who think Trump and Boris are not part of the establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:45 PM

Anything to say about the last post, Al, or do your criticisms not apply to your right wing friends?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

Guido is the UK branch/franchise of the propaganda network...

The internet won this election...

Waste of time reading guido's analysis of why Compo received such a drubbing then, but I will supply it anyway, secure in the knowledge the latte slurping remainiacs here will not read it, much less understand it.
This will ensure that the biggest sea change in British politics ever will make zero impact on your constrained thinking.
The hive mind driven by ideology is proven to be incapable of any rational thought. This will ensure labour is sidelined for generations to come. The labourite are looking everywhere outside the bubble for factors to explain their horrific defeat. They cannot accept rubbisk policies and a rubbish front bench have utterly destroyed both the party and their credibility.

https://order-order.com/2019/12/17/post-election-polling-roundup-not-good-labour/

Warbling that the working class can kiss my ass was not a votewinner outside the metropolitan labour luvvie heartland.
The twitter witter rebounded wonderfully beyond all expectation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:21 PM

BTW, Al.

Calling Boris an albino piglet won't do it.

I know it won't. I know it is trite and childish but it was a sobriquet coined by his peers and refers to his ability to wriggle out of the shit. Do you have nothing to say about referring to Corbyn as Compo and magic grandad or referring to Dianne Abbot as abbotopamus? Or are your new found friends beyond such reproach?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM

One area Labour could concentrate on is the area of lobbying MPs. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents not outside interests. The "Monster Raving Loony Party" had the policy that MPs who accept donations from lobbyists should be forced to wear logos like footballers - Monsanto? Lockheed? Not such a bad idea!

Trouble is many of the Labour ones have their snouts in these various troughs as well. Declaring an interest just doesn't seem to work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM

Al, who is this 'you' character to keep talking to? I'm confused.
If you referred to your target by name, I think we would all have a better idea about what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:17 AM

Robomatic. Being East European or being black is an accident of birth. Being a Tory or being a racist is a lifestyle choice. It is perfectly acceptable to berate people for their lifestyle choices but not for being born in the "wrong" place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:57 PM

We've traded barbs in the past. And I'm no saint. But I HAVE seen "Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood." recently.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:12 PM

That's giving the game away, robe. If they ptactised that sort of divergent thinking they wouldn't be so quick and self justifying with their abuse. Its not nice calling people names like racist. Given the dark history of our country, it takes a certain sort of ignorant priggishness to set yourself up as the arbiter in these matters.

Also giving the game away is the fact that if you had worked multiracial classrooms you wouldn't actually know when racial and cultural abuse was being used half the time.

Bet you were a bundle of laughs. The Rosa Parks of the staffroom.

(pause for an assembly featuring We shall Overcome and Kumbaya)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:40 PM

Steve:

What if someone besides you had substituted the word _______ for the word Tory and posted the identical posts you have recently posted.

Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:24 PM

Well my mum's side are all from Salford and Prestwich, an area with one of the biggest Jewish populations in the UK, and my grandad worked on Salford docks all his life. For decades my mum and dad lived on the Bury/Radcliffe border, an area which has huge numbers of Muslims. I taught in Poplar in the seventies when there were large numbers of second-generation West Indian kids in my school (40% of the school population). I then moved to a school in Walthamstow in which over a third of the kids were from Muslim families.

So this...

"If you are lucky enough to live somewhere unaffected by the trouble, keep your gob shut on the subject.

"The utter bullshit YOU and STEVE are spouting is the Hampstead Corbyn line that was so far out of touch with reality that we have Boris in Number 10.

You have no shame about the utter rubbish you talk, and the situation you have created. I worked in multi racial schools and gigged and recorded all over Europe...."

...is just about the most unreal bloody claptrap I've heard in years. I might live in Cornwall now (by far the most xenophobic and racist area I've ever lived in, despite the lovely scenery, as it happens, and I do fight back) but I've seen just as much, if not more, real life as you, Al, and I resent being tarred with the lame old metropolitan elite brush. By the way, it's not Hampstead but I won't dwell. And I'm rather proud of the fact that, in all my years in schools, I never once let a racist remark pass unchallenged in any of my classrooms. The instinct lives on, which is why I'm objecting now to some of your comments. I don't think you can say that of yourself, considering the occasional detestable comment you relieve yourself of in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:21 PM

I don't think they are racist, Al. I don't know them. I don't know you either but you have now made at least 2 racist statements. East Europeans are criminals and scroungers. What am I supposed to make of that? Do you really believe it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:05 PM

For me, Corbyn appealed more than his competitors for Labour Leadership..

But I've said right from the outstart I thought he was too old
for the amount of time needed to take the party to an election win,
and serve at least one term as PM..
And he carried far too much historic baggage which the tory media would seize on
to exploit to discredit & destroy him..

Sadly, I was right...

All along I've hoped he's been mentoring good potential successors...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM

The programme anout Lincolnshire Police is on tonight. mostly they try to keep it light. But apparently the main drug gangs working round Boston Eastern European in origin. It wasn't a point that was laboured - just commented on in passing, when the turf wars had spilled out onto the street.

Perhaps you'd like to explain the cultural advantages of having your kids sold heroin by Eastern Ruropeans as opposed to home grown scum.

You're the one that's in denial Dave. . no ones against people coming here and behaving themselves.

the people had some of the lowest wages in the country as it was. Seasonal people used to come over from Ireland and pick flowers and potatoes and beans when it was required. The town of bposton used to love playing host to the sailors from many countries but maiknly from the continent whose ships used to use the docks. Frequently they sorted out their quarrrels with knives buteven then - it was reckoned to be their own business. This was a very poor - but very tolerant society. Now its not.

You think its cos they're racist. I know these peole and I can tell that's not thecase. Abuse from outsiders doesn't help. Corbyn was just like a loudmouth on the edge of the crowd trying to work people up. that's why he lost. people sussed him out. don't be like him.

he's part of the problem - not the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:43 PM

... and the change in the position on Brexit was a factor. The choice between a Labour negotiated deal and remain made many people say "but we've already voted on that and decided we don't want to remain."

The leave with no deal option was a bit like the nuclear deterrent - neither side wanted it but remove it and you immediately remove your bargaining clout - if the EU Commission realised that remain was an option on a second referendum they would hardly be likely to offer any kind of acceptable deal.

What Corbyn did achieve was that he energised a lot of young people to take an interest in politics and the Labour Party had the biggest membership of any political party in Europe. Unfortunately with youth goes blind idealism -we were all there at one time weren't we after all? It also meant that the Momentum influence was mostly in favour of remain as opposed to the traditional heartlands.

I just hope that these young people won't sink back into apathy.

Maybe if Johnson gets Brexit done this won't be an issue to divide Labour any more and a slow recovery can take place:-

I don't agree with everything this man says but worth a listen:-

Jonathan Pie - Why Labour Lost.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:34 PM

I have sat back on much of the recent "discussion" here but I have to ask you Big Al if, as you say, you are a Labour supporter why do most of your posts sound like they are coming from a Conservative (with a big C) supporter.

Quite honestly they sound like posts I would expect from the right, or extreme right, wingers posting on here.

I would go one step step further and suggest if you consider yourself to be vaguely left wing then I'm a Dutchman.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 03:46 PM

Labour suffered a real blow when they lost Scotland - this was on Ed Miliband's watch.

Theresa May had the charisma of a cucumber which allowed Corbyn to make inroads in the previous election.

Boris saw an opportunity and went for it - he purged his own party of many of the remainers and this was interpreted as strong leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:29 PM

SPB - if there's any confusion in my writing,
I didn't mean or accuse Labour of losing her postal vote form...?????

Her local council blamed Royal mail...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:20 PM

Nothing to do with self-rightousness. I found the generalistic comment offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:07 PM

The administration and handling of postal ballots has nothing to to with political parties. We are not allowed to handle postal ballots in any way whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

Rain Dog - My mum is 87, I applied for her postal vote
for what is realistically probably her last general election.
The form never arrived, lost in the mail.
The replacement arrived a day after the closing date.
A proxy vote alternative was too impractical for our family circumstances.

So Labour lost her one vote.

However she's been voting Labour since the early 1950s,
and they've never won anything anyway round here in the South West.
Our votes never make any difference,
even when in the past we resorted to voting tactically for the treacherous Liberals...


So now the North can join us in the wasted vote club.
But hopefully not for too many years...

I never expected Labour to win this election.
I hoped they might...
But didn't expect them to do this badly.

Let's hope the party learns from it's disastrous performance...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:26 PM

Look, it really is dead simple. Al says East Europeans cause more crime and immigrants are here for council houses, free health care and free education. Nothing to do with being right of left, brexit or remain. As the son of an east European immigrant I should find this offensive but I don't. I'm thick skinned. What I do know though is that there is no evidence that East Europeans are any more lawless than anyone else and that immigrants are, in the main, net contributors and not scroungers. If you think that by pointing this out I am being insulting or self righteous then we may as well just let bigotry win.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:13 PM

In response to peteaberdeen's post

There is quite a lot of sweeping generalisations on here about most things. Having just googled the information, would I be right in saying that it appears there are only about 1 million or so voters who belong to any political party? The majority of people who vote are not members of any party.

I would agree with the statement 'no voters' can be categorised so narrowly. Unfortunately some of the people who contribute here seem to think that they voted correctly and anyone who voted differently was stupid/deluded/brainwashed etc

I would also ask if people genuinely thought Labour could win the election? The best I thought could happen is that it would be a hung parliament with all that would entail for the next 5 years.

I live in the South East where people voted approx. 2 to 1 in favour of leaving in the referendum. In my constituency, Dover, the Tories increased their majority. I voted Labour but cannot say I was surprised by the fact that they did not win the seat.

The one surprise for me was the fact that Labour retained Canterbury, in fact they increased their majority slightly.

Now we have to wait and see what the coming years bring us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM

Pete - My sweeping generalisation is that most of the anti Labour Party abuse on the internet
originates from outside the UK,
and is spread by easily-lead-by-peer-pressure narrow minded conformists,
who parrot key words and phrases
more associated with 13 year old American gamer boys...

Guido is the UK branch/franchise of the propaganda network...

The internet won this election...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:58 AM

My old dad, god bless ‘im, used to say that the only thing more unpleasant than a sore loser is a sore winner. I’m starting to understand that, judging by the evidence on this forum, he knew what he was talking about, did the old lad.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:45 AM

there is quite a lot of sweeping generalisations on here about who labour party members are - i wonder how many of our critics actually know any labour supporters? or labour voters? any lefty friends? lots of guys who you have lively discussions in the pub with? or do your opinions of us come from the media and your computer screen? no people can be categorised so narrowly. and what would be the purpose of doing it anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:44 AM

Right on Al, it's easy to see why Labour lost judging from what we see from its supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:19 AM

Pretty obvious that you are in denial about making racist remarks, Al. You say that East Europeans cause crime and immigrants in general are just here for what they can get free. Those are both unequivocally racist statements. You have no justification for them so you go into attack mode.

I used to think that you just made poorly chosen comments. I am not so sure now. Maybe you would be happier in this band from Pheonix nights?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:05 AM

Yes what my friends tell me every day about the town that had the highest number of people voting for leave in the country.

If you are lucky enough to live somewhere unaffected by the trouble, keep your gob shut on the subject.

The utter bullshit YOU and STEVE are spouting is the Hampstead Corbyn line that was so far out of touch with reality that we have Boris in Number 10.

You have no shame about the utter rubbish you talk, and the situation you have created. I worked in multi racial schools and gigged and recorded all over Europe. If there was medal for being self righteous idiots who have contributed to the downfall of the labour party - buggers like you with your insults and sneering would take the gold.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 10:41 AM

Michael Gove, introducing the Prime Minister on Friday morning, looked Britain’s remaining Labour voters in the eye, and told them “Never again must our Jewish citizens live in fear.” Never again.

“It is a new dawn, is it not?” Boris in victory couldn’t help himself, regurgitating the 1997 remark with which Blair proclaimed his own era. Laughing at Blair’s messianic pretension, throwing it back in Labour’s shocked, defeated faces.

Boris has a talent, shared by no other politician, of being able simultaneously to poke fun at his overblown Churchillian rhetorical style, without undermining the seriousness of its message. It’s (one reason) why he drives his opponents to insanity – did you see that sliver of malice, Alastair Campbell, snarling about “Johnson” on Friday morning? He hates that we think of the PM as “Boris”. Snarl away, Campbell, for all the good it’ll do your shrivelled, impoverished politics. Snarl right off, in fact, and close the door behind you.

Because this was a victory, above everything, for decency; a rejection of every strain – not just the Corbynite variety – of the linguistic and psychological thuggery that Labour has dressed up as virtue and forced down your throat since 1997. The political map is redrawn, and the Tory Party entirely re-invented. The consequences of that reinvention deserve many articles – it is literally a new party. But first let’s pick over the brittle, dusty bones of a dead one.

The Labour Party (not “The Left”) is history. Even when Blair reduced the Conservatives to their heartlands in the 1990s, the party still had heartlands. Labour, in 2019, doesn’t. It’s a collective noun for student Marxists, trades union hard-men, and spiteful anti-Semites. That’s not a political party: it’s a pathogen. A pathogen with nowhere to replicate.

The dramatic irony! Labour finally achieved its ambition to empower and politicise the working-class:Joe average walked 15 miles on Thursday, but he’d have crawled over broken glass to keep people like Corbyn from winning seats like Barnet
(from Unherd.com

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 10:25 AM

So no real justification for your comments about East Eurpeans being criminals or freeloaders then, Al. Just a rant about "what you see everyday". Really? You see lawlessness brought to communities by East Europeans and immigrants just out to get free health and education every day? Ye gods. When I lived in Salford and worked in Bradford, both areas with massive numbers of immigrants, I don't think I saw any such gangs of Lithuanian thugs or Polish scroungers roaming the streets. Must be pretty bad where you live. I'd come back North if I was you!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:31 AM

Flashman of the Fifth! or Bunter of the fourth?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:27 AM

I find it bizarre that the leftie shouties are screeching racist at the clever brexiteers when it is their own party under investigation for racism.
Cognitive dissonance? or merely abject stupidity?
Now all their leaders are rolling around fighting like alley cats.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkFGD5g4NeQ

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:25 AM

Yes, Al, your remark was racist. Not only that, you forgot that immigrants contribute hugely to our economy, and claim benefits far less than us "natives." Without those immigrants the NHS would collapse and my mum's care home would have to close down. As for Tories being in it for themselves, the difference is that Tories also believe in the devil taking the hindmost and that there is an underclass of undeserving, skiving poor. And 48% of Tory voters characterise themselves as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:19 AM

Predictable Raggy - like I say how bad did Labour have to be to lose to Flashman of the Fifth!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:03 AM

Ye gods, this didn't take very long. It would seem that all those tax cuts that the nice Mr Johnson promised us may not see the light of day.


Tax plans face squeeze

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:03 AM

We don't know that, bobad. Flint accused Thornberry of saying that. Thornberry is denying it and it looks likely it could go to court to fight over the ins and outs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:58 AM

Right you are Al. A Labour MP from an affluent urban area who got elected last week says to a Labour MP from a working-class area who lost her seat: “I’m glad my voters aren’t as stupid as yours.”

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:41 AM

Yes I get it, everyone who talks about what they see every day is stupid, racist and ignorant. Only 'nice liberal' people are allowed to have conversations and express their niceness, because they're so very nice. And all the rest of the people are hopelessly ignorant, racist and lets face it - stupid.

I think Boris is going to be there in No 10 for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:12 AM

Just because someone tells you an uncomfortable truth Dave

But it's not an uncomfortable truth, Al. It's not any sort of truth.

http://theconversation.com/immigration-and-crime-is-there-a-link-93521

Direct from the article

a large scale European study on the effects of immigration on crime concluded that while an increase in immigration generally does not affect crime levels, it does go hand-in-hand with increased public anxiety and anti-immigration stances.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:42 AM

The voice of reason, DMcG - as ever! Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:42 AM

Wish there was no truth in what I said, but like many Boston exiles, that is the message we keep getting. Bitching about the subject has been banned on the Boston website.

Just because someone tells you an uncomfortable truth Dave, it doesn't mean its motivated by malice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 07:17 AM

How does that speech end, Ians?

Ah yes,

That England that was wont to conquer others
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.

=====

We are where we are. For me, this conquest is not 'Brexit', but a willingness to adopt a leader who avoids scrutiny and whose manifesto is so light. But, as I indicated, it seems possible to me we follow a BRINO deal in the end. Do not forget that Johnson is famed for writing those two articles before the referendum. Even if he went for Leave in the end, that implies he saw some positives in our relationship with Europe, unlike some of the hardest ERG who seem it think it is all bad almost tautologically. It may stretch me a bit, but I am not without hope.

The 'Remain' side need to recalibrate. I and other sare convinced that any form of Leave is worse than Remaining. I still think that, but it no longer the question. The focus now must be - as to be honest it should have been from the referendum onwards - how to get the best Leave deal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:57 AM

No Dave - that was your fantasy

Was it, Al? So your are going to deny posting this then?

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston

If that is not saying that East Europeans are lawless, just what is it saying? Oh, and I do not have Polish neighbours. I am half Polish. I suppose being told to tuck off back to Poland where I belong is not racist either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:54 AM

when a private citizen can't express a simple and obvious truth, without being accused of spouting crap designed to stir people up.

I think we have reached a crisis point. I don't want to stir anyone up.

But maybe you need to know why the party I have voted for all my life is so unpopular. Basically it won't address the legitimate concerns of this country's citizens.

Tells them they are fools, ignorant racists, spouting crap.

Look to yourself as to why you lost that election.

Calling Boris an albino piglet won't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:46 AM

@ Big Al Whittle. I said for months that compo's postion on brexit was nonsense. When you are having a general election vote hijacked by brexit it would seem obvious to a two year old that clarity was required.
To argue a foggy neutral stance on brexit was a guaranteed recipe for disaster for labour. As events clearly demonstrated.
For future events the intent is already laid out.
As for Boris being weird he is popular.
He will lead us out of the wilderness and into the promised land of blue passports and real border controls, just like days of yore.

This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for her self
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in a silver sea
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:42 AM

I can't believe there is so much gloating going on in this thread. I wish I had the means to p*** off away from this cesspit of a country. Women voting to be robbed of 7 years of their pensions????? Very commendable that they want to die before they get back any of what they have paid in National Insurance so that their betters pay less tax.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:39 AM

No Dave - that was your fantasy.

I live happily next door to a Polish guy who pays his taxes, works every day and has two lovely kids.

I told you that I had a friend whose quid shop on Boston green was routinely robbeed by an East European gang that the police couldn't be arsed to chase after.

You refused to accept that.

You are one of the myriad of voices who called me racist because I asked a simple question.

Why did those Vietnamese people risk their lives to come to England when they are living in European countries that, by their own account at least, have better health systems, pay better wages, enjoy greater political freedom, have wonderful open opportunities to all residents.

And yet people risk their lives every single day live years in squalid refugee camps to come to this shitty little country of unfriendly racists, money grabbing tories, not to mention their bloody awful folk music.

Doesn't really add up.

Are you sure you got your facts right?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:30 AM

With comments like that you are a racist, in fact worse than a racist because you are spouting crap aimed at stirring up prejudicies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:15 AM

I'm not a racist but...

then along comes the free movement of European citizens. they all want council houses, free education, free health care.

Showing your true colours there, Al. You are going to tell us east Europeans are criminals next. Oh, hang on, you already have!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:15 AM

Iains - Boris is weird. Stop pretending you know what is going to happen.

I'm pretty sure there will be casualties. Just hold your breath and hope we're still alive.

Nobody really wanted him as PM. It was just that JC was unspeakably and very obviously bad.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:56 AM

'But Tories are always in it for what they can get'

Just where have you got in these tortured ponderings where ordinary people are not allowed to have any material aspirations?

And the people you're taking this gospel from Mark Steel (on the richest comedians register) and Diane Abbot (net worth 3 million)

When I started work as a teacher, my wage packet was thirteen quid a week. that was after 3 years at college. A third of my wage packet was confiscated by the government and half of my wife's. But we figured that was allright. the government were going to take care of us.

Then along comes Thatcher with the dutch auction offering lower taxes each election. then along comes the free movement of European citizens. they all want council houses, free education, free health care.

So surprise surprise! the government can't afford to pay my teaching pension - have to delay for five years. Ladies born a couple of years after me fare even worse.

just why British citizens aren't allowed to be 'in it for themselves' to the extent of getting a decent pension that they have paid for, even.

the hole in the bottom of the Corbyn boat finance wise was the fact that - however much he raised by tax (and most people thought he was bullshitting) that free movement of EU citizens would gobble it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:53 AM

Jeremy Corbyn was accused of being in denial yesterday after issuing a Labour recruitment video in which he says his manifesto had been “popular”. He claimed to “have won the arguments” and “inspired millions to engage in politics”.

He inspired millions all right! To kick labour out of power for a generation. Music to my ears.
3 rousing cheers for Bojo.

Good to see he has the BBC in his sights. Do a maggie, sell them off and cancel the annual tax.
Then carry out the delayed electoral boundary commission recommendations.
That will reduce labour even more.
Then we can have a reform of postal votes
Then put a stake through the heart of labour with the Equality and Human Rights Commission's findings on antisemitism.

OOOH happy days!
I hate to say I told you so but I will anyway:
Iains - PM
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 10:24 AM

The Boris bounce versus the compo corpse.
Spiffing news from the last survey results: Boris has taken a lead of 14 points over Labour in a new Kantar TNS poll, with the party jumping by 17% since May. What a lad! You can read all about it on Guido's site,
the font of truth and editorial accuracy
(Font as in once dipped in it you are baptized into a life of truth and righteousness and drop all those foolish leftie ideas.
(Remember Ecclesiastes 10:2)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:24 AM

Then that big mistake on brexit... but isn't hindsight wonderful

Yes it is. But when I resigned my Labour party membership I included a fairly long (and hopefully more organised) explanation that said the same sort of things I did in my earlier post. And that was long before an election was in the offing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:16 AM

Sure, Blair got Murdoch onside. He was young and dynamic and bloody popular with a massive majority, and the Tories threw up a succession of dolts as party leaders. Corbyn had every attack dog at his throat in both this and the previous election. In both cases he chose to take the high road. To an extent it worked with May because she was a seriously unattractive and stodgy figure. It looks like his advisers told him to adopt the same ploy this time, but the Tory backroom boys saw that coming, kept their poster boy out of the glare as much as humanly possible and did what Tories always do best: tell the public lies in insultingly simple slogans. It works because the electorate in this country is largely politically illiterate. Remember all those Beeb vox pops, enough to make a grown man weep at times...I agree about missing open goals. Attacks on the Tory record over a decade were couched in general and mild terms, rarely bigging up those irrefutable specific facts and figures about crumbling schools with huge classes and slashed funding, hospital waiting lists going through the roof, bed shortages, patients dying on trolleys, A&E disaster areas, millions more workers suffering the abuses of zero-hours contracts and the gig economy, homelessness burgeoning, benefits claimants suffering destitution because of a severely ballsed-up and inhuman benefits system,, food banks... All the numbers were out there but we didn't hear anywhere enough of them. Then that big mistake on brexit... but isn't hindsight wonderful.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:49 AM

”The thing is BWM, when you play the ukulele, you need the hours before light to listen to your george Formby dvds and work on your split stroke and your triple strum.”

Never gonna happen. I have enough trouble playing guitar and mando.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:47 AM

I found these two commentaries on the result interesting.

Johnathan Pie - not his usual comic wild fury, but some serious points

Rory Stewart

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:28 AM

Watched Jc and macDonnel's interviews.

they were going to take it on the chin. Then they blamed the media.

Bit like the captain of The Titanic blaming the iceberg. if you are sailing on these oceans you have a responsibility not sail into these things.

Sneer at will, but Blair calmed them down.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:20 AM

The thing is BWM, when you play the ukulele, you need the hours before light to listen to your george Formby dvds and work on your split stroke and your triple strum.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:18 AM

Bit of a random collection of thoughts here!


I posted here many months ago that I thought Labour's policy on addressing Brexit was mature and intelligent, but unfortunately completely 'unsellable' on the doorstep. I forget who it was but some famous author - Samuel Johnson, perhaps - said when writing you needed to do in such a way:

Not that it can be understood by those who want
But that it must be understood, whether they want to or not

The policy certainly met the first criteria, but failed dismally at the second. Now, there was actually a faint chance it could have succeeded if it was argued strongly as that grown up position, but time and again - even in Corbyn's articles after the result - that is was necessary because Labour's base straddled Leavers and Remainers.

That presents it, not as a sensible idea, but as a squalid attempt to get maximum advantage for the Labour party, with the wishes of the actual constituents of secondary importance. [Out of interest, this was when I left the Labour party. ]

So yes, I do see Labour's Brexit policy as the biggest reason why they lost so badly. This is not to excuse Corbyn, who basically showed no enthusiasm or ability to think on his feet. He was presented with no end of open goals during PM's Questions, but almost always ignored them, sticking to his pre-prepared notes. Then in the election period the one time I thought 'Yes! This is the Corbyn of 2016' was at the launch of the manifesto: the fire and passion was there. But it was missing from all the televised debates and interviews.


But as I and many others have said, we are not 'getting Brexit done':   just taking the first step. So whoever becomes the next Labour leader will still have Brexit on their plate. Not Leave/Remain, of course, but how close to the EU we remain. And I think we might well see interesting things happening in the new Parliament on that front. A constant cry of the Remainers was that "people voted to Leave the EU: They did not vote to be poorer and lose their rights." Given his majority, especially in the red wall constituencies, I find it plausible that Johnson seeks a deal that is very 'BRINO' according to some people. I don't think we will see signs of that in the immediate cabinet, but after the bigger shuffle predicted after 31 Jan, we should see clues one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:07 AM

Unless you are a millionaire and/or tax evader, you are indeed an idiot (fuckwit is not a word I use) if you voted brexit and/or Tory. Over the next three or four years you will see this in spades. You were taken in by the mass media. You were taken in by a hubris-ridden, testosterone-fuelled liar. You were all too easily fooled by a hostile media into thinking that Jeremy, a principled man who drops hot shit on Johnson when it comes to honesty, is the devil incarnate. If you're not actually an idiot, you're a racist. It really is that simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmJLxpkzysI

I do object to be called an idiot and racist, especially by an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:49 PM

I’m obviously not the only one with insomnia tonight! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:29 PM

I think it's time the liberals disbanded,
and each member decide if they are more Labour or tory...

I can persuade myself that a streamlined two party system
might work more effectively...???

[ Maybe Independents, comic nutter candidates, and single issue no hope parties,
might still serve some purpose...???]

That'd provide plenty enough overlap room in the middle to strengthen centrist moderates
from both sides in co-operation on specific issue by issue basis,
as if in coalition...


well it's an idea...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:45 PM

You don't actually know what you're talking about. Corbyn voted remain. I'm a member of the party but I disapprove of the image conveyed by Momentum and I will never join them. Momentum haven't learned the lessons of the Derek Hatton days. But your post is predicated on the lie that Jeremy is a brexiteer. He is not, and his stance, though horribly naive and there for the taking by the tabloids you presumably get your "information" from, was in fact grown up when put alongside the brainless "get brexit done" shit from your party and the disastrous "revoke" LibDem ploy (disastrous but not undemocratic, as I insist on saying). Read better papers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:35 PM

The question as I see it is will whoever gets elected be a leader or a figurehead? It appears to me that Momentum lead the Labour party at the moment. To a certain extent Jeremy Corbyn was led by Momentum or the party membership. It is widely known that he was personally in favour of leaving the EU. The party membership or Momentum decided against leave and so the party line became a second referendum after a new deal.

Now it turns out that that was the policy that swung the election. Momentum and the party take no responsibility for this decision. They blame Corbyn and no one mentions that he was all for leaving and had he actually led on that the result would have been very different.

If the new 'leader' is just a figurehead for Momentum I don't see much hope for Labour in the next five years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:29 PM

I'm going to bed now, Al, but before I go I'll just say this. There are Tories who talk nice. There are Tories who talk gentle. But Tories are always in it for what they can get. Tories are in it for self-interest. Nice Tories are actually not nice at all. They are out to delude you. Just before the election, a poll found that 48% of Tory voters admit that they are racist. Blimey, that's just the ones who admit it, excluding the ones who say "I'm not a racist, but..."

I'm sure your aunt was a lovely woman but I'm also sure that you never forensically dissected her questionable politics. She was family, after all. Yeah, my grandad was just the same. Luvly feller, worked on Salford docks all his life, always voted Tory...

The trouble is, Al, that the alternative to what you see as detestable Corbynist policies is not Tory policies. That false message has been sold to the electorate this time, especially up north, and it worked. I'm saying that the Tory campaign has sold you a pup. You appear not to able to see that, along with millions of others. Well, it's going to come back to bite you. Soon, and big time. I take no joy in that either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:14 PM

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 09:09 PM

Steve look at that comment the one before last.

You sound like the guy about to climb the clock tower
with an attack rifle. Time to come down from interplanetary Zog.

My aunt was a tory councillor for one of the roughest parts of Liverpool all her life. A gentler more decent lady, you could never meet. My Grandad was a miner from the age of twelve til he was 70. He played dominoes every week in the Conservative Club in St Helens.

Whoever has convinced you that ANYONE will vote for this shit you're coming out with has lied to you and misled you.

This rage is totally unproductive. If you insult people they will not vote for you. Its a stupid policy, and only a very stupid leader could have sanctioned and encouraged it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:38 PM

Party members were asked in a poll today who should be the next leader. I struggle a bit with this. Half of me sez that principle should rule the day but the other half of me sez that the Corbyn project has been totally scuppered by the media, and that a new leader tarnished by the past would be trounced next time round. I'd have gone for Rebecca Long-Bailey, but she is tainted. In the end I voted for Jess Phillips. I dislike her intensely, but we simply have to win the next election. She's feisty enough to take on Johnson...and she's a woman... The only bloke in with a chance as I see it is Keir Starmer. But he ain't half a man in a suit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:28 PM

You are a liar. Those things were never said and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:44 PM

If you're not actually an idiot, you're a racist.

"Labour spokesmen said that they are “pretty sure” they lost so many seats because, “they didn’t call enough people ‘racist’.”

Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the main opposition Labour Party, said, “We clearly didn’t call enough people racist during this campaign. We’re going to have to step up our game next election and call people racist 50 percent more.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 06:39 PM

Oh well. Keep it up lads. Should see Boris in power for about eighteen years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:52 PM

Unless you are a millionaire and/or tax evader, you are indeed an idiot (fuckwit is not a word I use) if you voted brexit and/or Tory. Over the next three or four years you will see this in spades. You were taken in by the mass media. You were taken in by a hubris-ridden, testosterone-fuelled liar. You were all too easily fooled by a hostile media into thinking that Jeremy, a principled man who drops hot shit on Johnson when it comes to honesty, is the devil incarnate. If you're not actually an idiot, you're a racist. It really is that simple. There is no such thing as a Tory with a conscience. There is no such thing as a one-nation Tory. The Tory party is the party of self-interest, devil take the hindmost. It is and always was. In the last nine years, food banks have done a roaring trade. People have died on hospital trolleys and the A&E waiting time is the worst by streets that it's ever been. People cruelly denied benefits have died in the jobcentre queue. Millions have "contracts" which ensure that they don't know whether tomorrow will provide any work or pay. Meanwhile, tax cuts for the wealthy are on the cards. Non-doms and off-shorers are indulged. Another Eton cabinet will rule us. Welcome to Tory Britain. And Boris's soft talk beyond the red wall is simply another of his lies. One might have thought that you'd have seen it by now. More fool you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 05:33 PM

You are back to referring to the mysterious "you" again, Al. Are you going to continue hiding just who you are referring to? Stop trying to insinuate things about people and backing off when confronted about it. If you want to accuse someone of something at least have the courage to name them.

As to "nasty" comments on Facebook, I refer you back to Backwoodsman's points earlier. How many times have you been told you are a traitor and deserve to be killed? I can also refer you to my own experience where, although I was born and raised in England, I have been told to "fuck off back to Poland" because I want to stay in Europe. Finaly, and tragically, how many brexit supporters have been killed for supporting their cause like poor Jo Cox was? Come off it. You are not a victim. You are aligning yourself with the hate campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:46 PM

Point Three

Poor jeremy has been demonised.
not half as much as Leave people on the FB. And don't tell me that the saintly JC wasn't aware of the stream of abuse his momentum gang were spewing out over Facebook at traditional Labour voters.

Two tradtional Labour ladies well into their 70's have been called Fascist Tory bitches this week that I know. Mark Steel called us all fuckwits. I suppose it makes a change from Brexshitters. Such a hoot calling us oiks silly names.

Now how about voting for JC....? Tommy Robinson is fuck all to do with anything. they're pondlife - and frankly the Momentum gang on FB make more convincing brownshirts than that shit for brains gang.

he's not THAT bloody out of touch, or if he is he should be a trappist monk not PM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:35 PM

Al - disaffected Labour voters have been reading, viewing videos, and agreeing
with relentless blatant far right internet propaganda for some years now...

I know this as fact as I join in with them frequently to stay aware and informed...
and attempt a trickle of resistance to see how they respond...

WE now have our answer...

Who needs the Mail...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:34 PM

Okay next point - this phenomenon is mirrored over the pond.

Tr8ump is a wanker, everyone agrees. (cept possibly Iains)

However the democrats reek of New England smart arsiness (plus anasty shot of tamany hall/whitewater corruption) to the midwest in the same way the Hampstead socialists do to Northern labour Voters.

And what do the democrats do - of course just like their Brit mirror image. they blame it on racism, ignorance, etc.

oh life's so unfair!! When we really are nice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 04:27 PM

i tried that and it didn't come back.

the substance of what i was aying was that if Boris is as bad as you say. You've got to be pretty shit to lose to him. And instead of looking inwardly you're blaming The daily Fucking mail - which I'm willing to bet none of the disaffected Labour voters woud be seen dead reading.

let's try that bit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 03:17 PM

Pete - I should have joined Labour and been an activist,
but there's something wrong with my personality that makes me asocial,
and a reclusive outsider..

However, it keeps me relatively objective as an observer...

Many of my best old mates are high up in local Labour party organization,
so I expect some interesting conversations to come...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:40 PM

PFR: Examples of Mudcat account hacking exists even into the PM messages section where I received 3 Private Message accusations of dire proportions and each were totally changed in a matter of hours.

Perhaps you feel funny drawing attention to allegations you can not prove. I know I did. Trust and honesty are relegated to the past especially when the future of news itself can be faked in both audio and video.

It looks as if creating uncertainty is a weapon in itself, but to what ends?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:38 PM

as a labour party member and union rep in workington constituency i'm always very interested in the views of people who have nothing but the best interests of the labour party at heart to give us advice on where we should go now. locally we have decided to abstain from the decisions on who should be the next leader, who should form the national executive and what our policy priorities should be. we have submitted a motion for the party to consider that we allow these decisions to be taken for us by the editorial board of the daily mail. please, if you have the time. forelock-tuggingly yours, dave spart and a few others.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:25 PM

Iains - nice to see you back out of attack mode...

yes.. I've never been a member of any political party,
but Labour values are more consistent with my own..

Values I'd see as universal to humanity,
not just the monopoly of a specific political party...

If Boris now has the power to keep the far right toffs and USA corporations at bay,
we'd hope his opportunism and pragmatism might lead him
to adopting moderate economic, employment, and social welfare policies
more in accord with the needs of his new working class voters...???

It'll be a tough ask of him, and not something we can expect
with too much optimism...??????

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 02:01 PM

Pfr no one benefits from the labour party collapse, Democracy is best served by a credible opposition party. A viable opposition tempers extremism, regardless of who is in the majority. For that to happen Labour needs to be a broad church - that is not the reality today.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:12 PM

Big Al Whittle wrote: Then its come up 'service not available'

If your browser has a 'Back' button, click on that and you should get your post back. It's on the top left on my screen, an arrow pointing to the left.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:06 PM

Just keep your post short and then it doesn't matter if you lose it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:50 PM

BWM - yes absolutely the right advice, which I also tell folks..

Sadly that don't stop me being a clot and typing in the mudcat message box... duh...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:48 PM

Al - you've always been one of the mudcatters I've most liked..
but recently something's got to you and soured your opinions...???

It's almost like your mudcat account has been hijacked...

But what you have been saying and getting upset about,
mirrors the general malaise amongst traditional working class labour voters,
which has lead to the party's severest electorial arse kicking...

Over the last few years I've been aware of the growing mass disaffection with labour,
becoming more and more hostile,
as ukip and tommy robinson supporters have exploited the problems
to recruit unhappy labour voters to their far right cause...
Which the tories have now obviously reaped the benefit of...

When I've engaged with folks on the internet,
my message has been; yes, labour is going off track,
but it would be better to stay and fight to bring the party back to it's working class roots,
than buggering off and becoming useful idiots for the far right...
Clearly, my attempts fell on deaf eyes and minds...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:43 PM

‘Long, considered’ posts are best typed in Word and saved, then copied and pasted into a Mudcat post. Then, if the ‘Cat falls over mid-post, you’ve still got your work in Word, and it’s a simple matter to repeat the c&p when Mudcat’s up and running again.

IMHO, of course. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

Fairy nuff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:26 PM

Anyway I was probably talking bollocks as usual....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:25 PM

I've done two long considered replies, Dave - but forgot to save.

Then its come up 'service not available'

Sorry but I don't feel like trying a third time.

computer says no! arrrgh.....!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:26 PM

well I think I'm talking to myself.. You don't get it. You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself.

Your trust has been abused big time.

We never really got to bottom of this did we, Al? You are very obviously not talking to yourself but someone quite specific. Just who is this mysterious "you" that doesn't get it, gets angry and dismissive of you and who's trust has been abused?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:49 AM

My Dad was a trade unionist that hated both communism and facsism, PFR. Like him, I think extremes of any kind are very dangerous. I don't believe for one minute that the current Tory party are fascists any more than I believe Corbyn's Labour party are communists. But there are extreme factions on both sides that need to be reigned in. While the ERG and Brexit party were so influential with the Tories, Labour needed their own extremes to respond. My sincere hope is that the Tories will now moderate their recent excesses and take notice of their new working class supporters. I am not hopeful though as BoJo has said he will do just that. His track record for the truth leaves a lot to be desired:-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

Right then.. I vote Labour - but I'm not a fan of the Labour party...

So they have let's say 2 to 3 years to rediscover their traditional working class roots,
and claim the party back from it's middle class academic/identity politics hijackers...

At least the Northern disaster might serve to give the Labour party
the wake up call it's needed this last few years...???

At the moment it basically seems dominated by the culture and obsessions
of the more zealot extremes of the National Union of Students...

That's the public perception, obviously hyped up by right wing media and internet bigotry,
but to a significant extent based on reality...

Labour now has more than enough evidence that it's old traditional voter base
feel their party has been taken over by intolerant puritanical ideologue cuckoos
who dislike and look down on the working class....

If my dad - a factory machine operative and shop steward - was still alive,
I dread to think how even he might now feel despondent enough with his party
to punish them by voting tory...!!!???

[.. and if my extended family back on the council estate voted at all,
I daren't ask which party...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:47 AM

Thanks Dave - could you PM me how you did it, and what I’m missing please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:25 AM


I've put that kindly. To put it less kindly, you understand nothing about anything. Cheers.

Not worth getting angry about, because it's hard to get angry with someone who routinely and manifestly demonstrates mental issues.

That from the pompous prig, the prosecco kid, that claims to insult no one!

Marr was stumbling a bit today - must be the antidepressants kicking in!

I totaly.ignore anything from Iains.
Earlier today he insinuated that I was posting drunk (over a post I'd made stone-cold sober), and, when I took exception, he accused me of posting with a hangover

I do like consistency!
A toon for a twat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA0NQYtwDw4

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 08:17 AM

There you go

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 07:52 AM

Anyway, now normal service has been restored, there’s a very good opinion piece by Andrew Rawnsley in today’s Guardian, titled “We will now find out what a triumphant Boris Johnson really wants and believes”.

I’ve tried to link to the piece but I keep getting a 404 error - perhaps some kind soul more internet-literate than me could make the link work and post it please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 01:07 AM

"I thought Backwoodsman's little summation copy/paste was pretty good except it went unattributed. I'd like to know who wrote it and be able to see other stuff they've put over their byline."

I didn't give attribution because it was a social media post and the author has not given express permission for his/her identity to be shared, other than amongst a specific closed group of individuals. However, because the piece resonated with me - and especially because I found it very amusing in an ironic kind of way - I felt the thoughts expressed were worth sharing here, albeit anonymously. But, as a Remain-voter who has witnessed a great deal of abuse, including numerous examples of death-threats, from Brexiteers on social media, I have no intention of betraying a confidence and risking exposing the author to similar abuse.

So accept it for what it is, or don't, but it's all you're getting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 08:00 PM

robomatic- me too!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 07:34 PM

I thought Backwoodsman's little summation copy/paste was pretty good except it went unattributed. I'd like to know who wrote it and be able to see other stuff they've put over their byline.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:41 PM

Well, boobs, it depends on which thrust and parry you choose to follow. The thrust and parry you chose to follow, from your massive distance, was a prime example of your resort to confirmation bias (which we all know you fervently seek as soon as the buzzword "Corbyn" is uttered). You are a tabloid victim, all the worse because you're trying to do it from a distance and because you're aching to be selective.

I've put that kindly. To put it less kindly, you understand nothing about anything. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:52 PM

This from a spoof site but it rings true to anyone who has been following the thrust and parry here:

"Prime Minister Boris Johnson exceeded all expectations in Thursday’s U.K. general election, and his landslide victory makes the U.K. all but certain to exit the European Union early next year.

Labour spokesmen said that they are “pretty sure” they lost so many seats because, “they didn’t call enough people ‘racist’.”

Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the main opposition Labour Party, said, “We clearly didn’t call enough people racist during this campaign. We’re going to have to step up our game next election and call people racist 50 percent more.”

Corbyn announced he would not be heading another election campaign after Thursday’s crushing defeat.

Some Labour supporters are already getting a jump on the next election, calling people old racists right out of the gate:

kyleukeeaton @kylelukeeaton

    Waking up to hear #ConservativeParty have won is like waking up at Christmas and getting coal, brilliant for old people and people who wanted #Brexit but not so good for people who didnt want a racist, disgusting values with no plan leader in boris,
    2:04 AM - Dec 13, 2019
    Twitter Ads info and privacy

See kylelukeeaton's other Tweets

Paul Mason?
@paulmasonnews

BBC exit poll predicts Tories to take 70+ seats. If so - a victory of the old over the young, racists over people of colour, selfishness over the planet. Scotland will leave UK. However it does not feel right compared to on-the-ground.
11.7K
5:06 PM - Dec 12, 2019

https://genesiustimes.com/labour-pretty-sure-they-lost-because-they-didnt-call-enough-people-racist/?sfns=mo&fbclid=IwAR0UKCeMNkSxm7ti6-n7x09hh2AAAv3Sje4pVLKndSNFbFef5zeNmvc8Qto

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:17 PM

Your UK tabloids are like our AM radio stations owned by conservative 'Clear Channel'. The Robo comparisons to US politics is accurate.

The old saw that perception is reality (even when its a lie) does work in th short run, and by then its too late.

There is a big difference between Boris and Donald. Boris will not severely punish the UK.
Bannon has said "Because of the impeachment proceedings, Donald Trump will punish America in ways you have never seen before."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:19 PM

Cross-posted with Dave there (I'm a slow typist and I review like buggery).

You are right about perceptions, Robo. But you have to consider who it is that manipulates the agenda and who twists and spins the facts in order to manipulate those perceptions. The overriding victory of this campaign belongs to the right, who got almost all the media on board for the purpose of demonising Corbyn. As a result, a decent and fair future agenda was lost and Corbyn and his allies will have to go. I'm a big supporter, and it grieves me to say that, but the mass media have comprehensively won the fight to bamboozle a politically-illiterate electorate (you should have seen the incessant BBC cheap-telly vox pops we've endured for six weeks...)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:08 PM

"You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself."

I sometimes agree and sometimes disagree with you, Al, and on occasion your negativity is astounding, but at least you are a responsive and challenging contributor. But I'm appalled at the above alignment with Iains you've just made. Please read his last post again, carefully, and wonder at the whining hypocrisy and sheer dissembling over who insults who around here. If you like, I'll copy his post and underline the plethora of gratuitous insults, all uncalled for, in just a few lines of one post. I doubt that you need me to do that. Earlier today he insinuated that I was posting drunk (over a post I'd made stone-cold sober), and, when I took exception, he accused me of posting with a hangover. So yes, he's well worth dismissing. Not worth getting angry about, because it's hard to get angry with someone who routinely and manifestly demonstrates mental issues. Of course, if you really wish to be tarred with the same brush that's up to you. At the moment I don't see things that way and I look forward to engaging with you in a way that I don't want to with the likes of him.

And I disagree with you about Corbyn. Considering the terrible polls pre-the 2017 election, he at least put a basket-case party back on the map. This time, the big guns had learned the lesson and were out to get him. Four-fifths of the tabloids conspired viciously to demonise him, and it worked. And, just for once, the BBC played a major part in briefing consistently against him. Not saying that he did things right. He absolutely didn't, but neither did Johnson, but HE got the hale-fellow-well-met bye. Barring Jeremy's stance on brexit, which was grown-up but which gave the tabloids gleeful open season on him, he did things the same way as he did in 2017. Anyway, that's what I think, and I've respectfully taken you on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:56 PM

Returning to my comment

The quote I heard yesterday (Friday) morning on NPR was from Hugo Gurdon of The Washington Post: Here it is from NPR's web site:

"CORNISH: Boris Johnson and the Tories win big. Labour had its worst defeat since 1935. Hugo, how did he do it?

GURDON: He did it with a very simple message - get Brexit done. But I think that this election was about more than Brexit. Boris Johnson is a very charismatic fellow. I worked with him every day for about a year at The Daily Telegraph when we were journalists together. He's got a lot of charm. He's not always honest, but he's nevertheless attractive. He was opposing a terrible leader, Jeremy Corbyn of the Labour Party, who's essentially an unreconstructed Marxist who's dragged the party so far to the left that he would - that he's made it unpalatable to Labour voters, not just those Labour voters - and there are lots of them who - in the north who are Brexit voters, but also people who are just not going along with the left wing project that he wants."

This is me, robo, again: Whether or not Mr. Corbyn fits the technical bill as a "unreconstructed Marxist" is not the point. The point is perception. And the perception of Mr. Corbyn has not been good in many quarters and individual stories that have made it into Mudcat. I'm going to compare it to the perception of Hilary Clinton in the States. Whether accurate or not, stories have accumulated and the remains of those stories have left perceptions, like a bad taste, in various memories. May be fair, probably isn't.

Anyhow, that's where the quote came from. As I wrote above, I don't have the long history required for a personal judgment on my own experience. But it is clear that there are those in this thread who DO have long personal experience. And they are not united. They are on both sides of that quote.

I am learning from both sides and I am enjoying this thread because it is so far pretty partisan but not too personal.

I believe in Democracy with all my heart. But it ain't pretty. It ain't supposed to be pretty. Pretty is actually a warning sign that someone's got too much control over the covering paint!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:50 PM

You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself.

I'm not at all angry, Al. I have never been dismissive and I totaly.ignore anything from Iains. I must say that I am surprised that you would associate yourself with him.

Still, every man to his own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

The "no-one won" opinion
is exactly how I felt,
in the USA,
on November 2016.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:47 PM

Well why did a very low key boring Corbyn let it happen?
Is it possible momentum had an oppositional agenda?

Its clear there will be hard feelings forever but I also see a resignation of labour to the election - BUT NOT SURRENDER!


Iains perhaps I do pick on you for being corporate trained and brain washed.
I thought I only ad hom'ed Steve, and that, only in jest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:26 PM

well I think I'm talking to myself.. You don't get it. You're angry and dismissive of people like Iains and myself.

Your trust has been abused big time. The revelations coming out today about what's been going on expose Momentum as a body completely disinterested in the fate of the poor people of England. Their own party was explaining to them what was going on on the doorsteps two years ago - and they gave not a shit. THey wanted control of the party - even if it meant total electoral failure.

After eight years of austerity and tory party wrangling, they would have pissed rings round the tories without Corbyn and Momentum. Two years later, people had it sussed that Corbyn was part of the problem - not the solution.
Not the people on this forum - but most people.

And Iains I'm sorry I don't agree with you - no one richly deserves being pissed about and misled. No one's won.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:22 PM

Nigel I am also a believer in doing our own work and writing.

But seriously if you start insisting we footnote everything I will consider you a crank and not a linear purist. So give us a break and let people live and learn by as many different ways that work for us as possible- hmm my arm just fell asleep, that means ts going to be up all night.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:07 PM

I know that if a statistical study is carried out on the insults posted on this forum concerning brexit the overwhelming majority come from the left. The problem is that you are so used to giving out insults and abuse you are no longer aware of it. Perhaps a little self reflection is in order. Your stock reply is to label those with a different opinion racist or troll, followed by a string of abuse.
Your self righteous posturing on this forum ever since the referendum has been clearly shown to be constructed on nothing but delusion. Your absolute certainty has been shown to be nothing but wishful thinking.
You were wrong on your predictions
You are wrong on who is responsible for insults.Just look at your posts over the last 24 hours.
You boyos backed a loser.
You lost the referendum
Youlost the vote for article 50
you lost the vote in the 2016 election
you lost the vote in the 2019 election.

Stop whining and try to act like adults. By every metric known to man you lot of leftards are losers. Bleating is not going to change that fact one iota. Many tried to tell you that you were inhabiting a bubble of delusion but you would not accept it.
Well the fickle finger of fate f**ked you all over beautifully and from your behaviour on this forum I would say it was richly deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:26 PM

”Doesn't it give you just a moment's thought about your right to be so nasty to people who have been proved right?”

And I’ve told you numerous times that the really nasty-bastards are the Union-Jack-boxers-wearing Brexit-Bullies who make death-threats against Remainers. I’ve been told, on a number of occasions, that I’m a ‘Traitor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot at dawn for treason’, and ‘We know how to find you’, and I’ve seen it hurled around on social media many times more. I’ve never heard or seen a Remainer make that kind of threat against a Leaver. Being told you deserve death, and that those threatening you know where to find you is in a completely different order of magnitude to being told you’re a fuckwit.

So for fuck’s sake, will you stop playing the victim. There are just as many nasty-fuckers amongst the Leavers, perhaps more, than there are amongst Remainers - you only have to read some of the Leavers’ posts on this forum to see that’s true. The nastiest fucker on this, and other, similar threads is a Leaver.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:09 PM

700

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:08 PM

Backwoodsman: Just to correct a couple of comments in your copy/paste:

One of the bast pieces I’ve read, in the aftermath of the GE....

”So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a to do list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.
I expect to see us out of the EU by the end of January, in fact, this has been promised. There will still be negotiations needed to confirm our ongoing trading position with the EU

2. The nhs. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.
£350 million was not promised. This has been explained before. The comment on the bus listed what we pay to EU each week, and suggested we could spend it better, with more being paid to NHS. Nowhere did it claim that the whole amount would go to the NHS.
Oh, and £350,000,000 per week equating to 72,000 nurses? This means nurses are paid over £4,000 per week. Figures worthy of Diane Abbott

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB. This is urgent.
No. Scotland were not promised that they would remain in the EU if we went for Brexit. They were told that if they went for independence (at that time) they would no longer be part of the UK, and so would lose their membership of the EU. If they were no longer part of UK then they would no longer be part of EU. If they remained part of UK then they would remain part of EU as long as the rest of UK did. This may be difficult to understand, but please try.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB. This is also urgent. There have always been calls in Ireland for re-unification. Whether Brexit makes those calls stronger is debatable.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out. The pound has already rallied, and the FOOTSIE 250 has also seen improvements. It seems the financial industries can see benefits which you cannot.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other. If Labour had won, and if they had proved to be a Remain party (rather than sitting on the fence) there would still have been a need to "bring the country back together". So this is a rather pointless point

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any if this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”


Next time, try and come up with your own arguments, rather than some unattributed copy'n'paste.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 01:03 PM

Al - would you be more specific just who you are railing at...

Iains - would you be more specific just who you are hurling childish abuse at...

At least for my benefit, so I know clearly if I'm a 'leftard' and a 'dupe' or not...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 12:57 PM

Who are you talking to, Al?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

project fear didn't just promise a downturn in the economy - you and your mates actually achieved it.

however, the revelation of the day is that Labour thought Corbyn was a vote loser and they didn't dare use his image on the campaign literature.

So if Labour thought that, it seems like it was only you lot who were actually taken in.

So all this abuse of Iains, and all that stuff on facebook and Mark Steel calling us fuckwits - it was really all about you being dupes of Momentum.

Doesn't it give you just a moment's thought about your right to be so nasty to people who have been proved right? We told youCorbyn was unelectable and YOU didn't listen

No ones fault but your own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 12:33 PM

The leftard rugrats make dammed poor losers. The tactical voting did not achieve much did it.
Bojo took his mojo into Sedgefield (bliar blairs old constituency0
It is bnow staunch Tory.
Howsabout that then! Care to give an explanation?

Metropolitan labour dropped a bollock. On an election based on brexit, offering yes and no on an election manifesto is the act of mental deficients. That is why the valiant tories licked snivelling labour by a 2:1 crushing defeat. Iedeology bullshit obviously did not baffle brains this time around - apart from the hard left posting here of course.

A little toon for the rugrats!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So4KG40vf-o

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 11:05 AM

One of the bast pieces I’ve read, in the aftermath of the GE....

”So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a to do list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.

2. The nhs. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.

3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB. This is urgent.

4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really buggered this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB. This is also urgent.

5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.

6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any if this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 10:02 AM

.. at least Stanley Unwin's "Unwinese" made some sense...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 09:39 AM

Oh Dear, the leftards are acting like rugrats having just had their favourite toy confiscated.

Meanwhile the last rites for compo.
Dies iræ, dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla,
Teste David cum Sibylla.         l.
Quantus tremor est futurus,
Quando Judex est venturus,
Cuncta stricte discussurus!

Sure looks like the pollsters took their lead from Sibyl as far as compo was concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 08:22 AM

Larry didn't like Cameron, and I trust his instincts on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 07:29 AM

One is only a nice tory if possessing all of Lord Sutch's first 6 singles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 07:23 AM

As we can see Iains is determined not to acknowledge Boris's appeal
that "now is a time for healing divisions..."

Iain's is a perfect example of the kind of nasty hostile tory
that Boris will have perpetual struggle with
in maintaining party discipline in government..

Nice guy Dave Cameron tried and failed in his PR project
to present the Tories as a humane compassionate party..

Time will tell how well Boris will succeed in reconciling any positive intentions with the overwhelming weight of vile c@nts in his party...???

His survival depends on it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:21 AM

The smart New Zealanders can at least see the enormity of the wilful act of self-harm ordinary British people have just committed upon themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:41 AM

One thing that I have been discussing with people this morning is what happens at the next election. There is a widespread view that the 'red wall' voted in favour of the Conservatives because of either or both of Brexit and Corbyn.

Come the next election, the Conservatives will want to hold onto as many of those seats as they can and neither of those two drivers will be in play. So it is likely that they will spend a fair proportion of this Parliament trying to consolidate that hold. Quite what they will do remains to be seen, but it may well be more 'leftish' than we might normally expect.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:19 AM

au contraire commie corbyn is very much a marxist. Now he is a dead duck in the water marxist.
Even the bastion of leftards, the guardian agrees. You can rest assured whenever shaw pontificates on a subject subsequent events prove him wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour
I suspect the guardian knows more about such things than a retired opinionated teacher.
The Sun does not mince words.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10394665/corbyn-speech-manifesto-hate/
He is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. However the British Public recognized his total inadequacy and gave his arse a royal kicking in the polls. The worst labour result in 80 years.
Bye bye Compo
Bye bye labour
welcome to brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:17 AM

You say "if it is an apt description" , Robo. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:57 AM

Then you are attending to the wrong kind of "commentator." Whatever else Jeremy Corbyn is, he is not a Marxist. Your posting history suggests to me that you regard being branded a Marxist as some kind of slur (many wouldn't, but hey ho). I suggest that you do your homework before you perpetuate slurs in future.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:03 AM

It would be more meaningful, and you may get more understanding, if we knew who your mysterious, unidentified ‘commentator’ is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 02:56 AM

Early this morning in explaining (not really) the events surrounding yesterday's important U.K. election, an English commentator described Corbyn as "an unreconstructed Marxist." I haven't the background in the politics on your side of the pond, but if it is an apt description, it explains a lot to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:39 PM

"The Conservative Party has now been installed like a official version of Windows 10"

..so it'll work seemingly ok for a few weeks
until the next random major failure...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:25 PM

The Conservative Party has now been installed like a official version of Windows 10, the labour party is like a bad version of Windows 98 which will never install because the file system is wrong!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:46 PM

no one won. (certainly none you'd care about) maybe the Labour party if it sorts itself out. It couldn't carry on with that idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:43 PM

Since June 2016 you have been squealing:
the referendum result was a fix,
people did not know what they were voting for,
that they were stupid,
that we need another referendum.

Well we had an election instead.
We won again - and still you leftards cannot accept it. Are you all going to continue drivelling for another three years?
Metropolitan Labour gave away seats in the labour heartlands. You all thought because you appeared to be winning in the blogosphere that you would walk it.

Well those labour seats that voted for brexit voted conservative to get brexit, Looks like humpty dumpty compo miscalculated with his sitting on the wall. All he achieved was aggravating his piles.
How sad!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:38 PM

Iains - "Off into the wasteland with them! A binary choice and kama sutra compo puts on his Janus mask and recites the labour suicide manifesto.
What a star! You really could not make it up."

Well somebody made that up..
clearly someone with pretentious poor writing skills made that up...

You..???

The election is over, you won..
Whoever your handlers are, whoever set you in motion,
they can switch you off now...
Unless you have been left on auto,
programmed to shift into bad winner mode..
until your batteries run down...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:01 PM

Iains - let's guess from the tone of forced hyperbole.. guido...???

Crikey.. do we have to wait all that time until early 2020..

We'll everyone of us be senile by then...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 01:40 PM

"Mr Corbyn faces calls to quit immediately after he lost 59 MPs and Boris Johnson won the Tories its biggest majority for a generation - but he has instead vowed to cling on into 2020. Labour is already engulfed in a brutal civil war today as moderates warned of another '20 years of Tory rule' unless Mr Corbyn and his supporters were removed from positions of power. But the Labour leader said today he would remain leader until a contest to replace him likely is held in the 'early part of next year' - meaning his departure could still be months away. In his first interview since defeat, Mr Corbyn has denied he was to blame for the devastating defeat and said: 'This election was ultimately taken over by Brexit and we as a party represent people who voted both Remain and Leave'

The loopy leftards at their best! Off into the wasteland with them! A binary choice and kama sutra compo puts on his Janus mask and recites the labour suicide manifesto.
What a star! You really could not make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 01:20 PM

I think I'll just leave this here. High time our electoral system was modernised, from the antiquated FPTP system we currently have, to the kind of PR system being used in other, more enlightened, countries.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 12:31 PM

Tribalism was mentioned earlier. Lovely take on that by Jez Lowe

This is not my tribe dual

Bit of relief from all the sabre rattling :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:58 AM

Iains - just be careful your celebrating don't land you in A&E...
not the most cheerful of places to be kept hours waiting to see a Dr
at this time of year...

hah.. just imagined the various bizarre self inflicted injuries tories are noted for...
a whole queue of em lining up in casualty
with various strange objects lodged in their throats and bumholes...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:52 AM

Iains - while you are blinded by your own bile.. remember it's Fri 13th..

BILE = anger, bitterness, or irritability.

Sounds more like you leftie boys to me, I'm too busy celebrating.
Was it not one of your little charmers suggesting leaving faeces on school desks(From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM
Seen on Facebook earlier.
If your polling station is in a school and you vote Tory, you may as well shit on a child's desk on the way out :-) )
The behaviour of two year olds or lefties taking a well deserveed drubbing.


ps it was friday the 13th for commie compo. God moves in not so mysterious ways!   Luvvin it!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:40 AM

Sorry, DtG!

But I expect I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:35 AM

It does not take paranoia, Nigel. Just thinking about what the Government would want to do about the examples I gave.

As I said and repeat yet again, the government may not do anything untoward about these. But it has the opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:29 AM

Finally, of course, I did not tell Joe what to think. I quoted a section of the manifesto and asked him to decide how an actual fascist leader would regard it.
That is what your opening comment to Joe said, but you then did a summary: A remit to alter all the checks and balances in favour of the Government? That is not what I would call centrist.

As I explained, it is not a remit to alter all checks and balances in favour of the Government, but I can see how a paranoid might read it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:21 AM

Ooooh. My last post was number 666. How beastly :-)

DMcG. You made a few errors in that last post of yours. Expect to be Nigeled at any moment!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:14 AM

John, you know the drill! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:13 AM

Now Nigel, read carefully what I said. I said a fascist would love that remit. I have said here and elsewhere that that clause could mean anything between nothing at all and near enough the Enabling Act. we do not know where on the spectrum that will end up. But we do know that in the last few months the Government has complained that

- Parliament is blocking the Government
- The supreme court is blocking them and may need political involvement on appointments
- Cases brought by Gina Miller should have been declared outside the scope of the court.
- They argued the same in the Scottish courts
- They 'reminded' the BBC of an upcoming licence review and speculated the licence model might be dropped
- They threatened C4 in a same way


Every time, the Government objected to anyone else having any sort of authority over it, or even, in the case of C4 showing them in a bid light. So given all that, I doubt if 'rebalancing' powers can mean anything other than strengthening the Government.

Finally, of course, I did not tell Joe what to think. I quoted a section of the manifesto and asked him to decide how an actual fascist leader would regard it.

Like others, I am not claiming the current Government is fascist. But I am claiming this section of the manifesto creates an opening.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:13 AM

Iains - while you are blinded by your own bile.. remember it's Fri 13th..

Take the blinkers off and carefully look out for ladders and banana skins...

I predict a lot of pumped up fools will accidently expire prematurly from over-celebrating this weekend...

Sensible folks best stay out of pubs and off the roads after closing time,
until the triumphalist bully euphoria subsides...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 11:05 AM

Al - If the next general election is 5 years from now,
thankfully a lot of our current old sour complainers on the left and the right
will be too dead to make life a misery for everyone else...

I'll be 65 if I outlive the family curse [no male relatives ever make it to 70..]..

Perhaps I might by then have earned sufficient bitterness
become a miserable old bastard,
going on and on about the old days when blah blah blah drone drone drone...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:58 AM

”pop quiz - 10 bonus points to anyone who knows the big academic word for this process...]”

Errrrrrmm....Self-nemetic?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:53 AM

Corbyn wanted 16 year olds to have the vote. Mainly because they couldn't remember how bloody awful nationalised industries were.

Wonder how youngsters have would felt if they couldn't go into a store and buy the phones they so love.

there was a six month waiting time for a phone. No one was allowed to buy an answer machine. There was a year waiting list and you had to rent it from the government.

There was a time when you had to get cookers from the gas show room and the electricity show room.

You can say - well it wouldn't be like that nowadays - but it would be something - if it wasn't phones or washing machines. Bloody little Hitlers telling you what you could do and what you couldn't. One of the buggers threatened me with prison when I bought an answer machine from Tandys.

the corbynistas are all saying it was all about Brexit. But if that was the case why did Dennis Skinner lose his seat?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:43 AM

Whinge whinge. whinge!

No second referendum now boyos.

How's the reality sandwich going down? more lemon perhaps?

Truly a popcorn moment! Even the pound is celebrating, rising above 1.2 to the euro for the first time in a coon's age.

We will take back control-get used to the idea. No point in even pretending to take the lefties seriously!

Any toys left in the pram?

A little toon to chee4 you up. Start substututing around 3 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy9GmieAEaQ
Jo Swinson    No more
Nigel Dodds    no more
Zac Goldsmith no more
David Gauke (Ind) no more
Dennis Skinner no more
Anne Main (Con) etc.
Dominic Grieve
Stephen Gethins
Laura Pidcock:
Mary Creaghy.
Caroline Flint
Jo Platt (Lab)
Anna Turley (Lab)
Helen Goodman (Lab)
Susan Ellan Jones (Lab)
Emma Reynolds (Lab)
Vernon Coaker (Lab)
Gordon Marsden (Lab)
Paul Williams (Lab)
David Hanson (Lab)
Phil Wilson (Lab)
Richard Burden (Lab)
Jenny Chapman (Lab)
Lisa Forbes (Lab) –
Emma Dent Coad (Lab)
Nic Dakin (Lab)
Laura Smith (Lab)
Ruth Smeeth (Lab)
Gareth Snell (Lab)
Paula Sherriff (Lab)
Tom Brake (LD) –
Sue Hayman (Lab)
Sarah Wollaston (LD)
Anna Soubry (TIG).

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:42 AM

Nigel - ideological 'fascism' is more a pernicious pervasive state of mind
effectively controlling the masses, than any words printed in statutes...

ie.. the north, midlands, and Welsh working class have now been persuaded
to actively choose to collude in their own domination...

[pop quiz - 10 bonus points to anyone who knows the big academic word for this process...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:30 AM

Joe: Don't accept DMcG's comments at face value:
well, Joe, here is one section of the Conservative Manifesto. I leave it to you to decide whether a fascist would like to have got a mandate for this:

"After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts; the functioning of the Royal Prerogative; the role of the House of Lords; and access to justice for ordinary people. The ability of our security services to defend us against terrorism and organised crime is critical. We will update the Human Rights Act and administrative law to ensure that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals, our vital national security and effective government. We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state, while ensuring that it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays."

A remit to alter all the checks and balances in favour of the Government? That is not what I would call centrist.

The section he quotes only talks of reviewing the various relationships, NOT altering them in favour of the Government. In fact the only section which mentions what action may need to be taken is: We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state
That is exactly the opposite of what DMcG is claiming.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:26 AM

My condolences. -A Mrrican

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:09 AM

Please note my post was in reply to Stanron!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:09 AM

Once again Stanton is putting it from the perspective of the right. Far right factions within the Conservative party, such as the ERG, and outside influences such as UKIP (now the Brexit party) have pushed politics so far to the right that what was once a moderate left is now portrayed as Communism. I would agree though that the current administration are not fascist. It is my hope that the influx of, hopefully, centrist Tories will pull them back to just right of centre. I would also agree that Momentum has had a detrimental effect on the Labour party but not in the way he describes. The parliamentary Labour party are no further left than many mainstream political parties in Europe. Momentum, which is not the PLP, are further left and have created rifts in the party that allowed the Tories to take advantage of the in-fighting within Labour. The lesson the Labour party need to take from his is to get back together to fight the Tories instead of fighting each other!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:04 AM

Au contaire.

The right wing of British politics has come to the fore in the past few years. The "success" of the likes of Farage and the ERG has mirrored the rise of far right groups across Europe.

Whilst the Labour party has always had a minority of far left wingers they are nothing like as powerful as far right wing groups in the Conservative party.

Stanron is quite correct though when he suggests that all politics in the US is quite a distance to the right of what we consider to be "centrist"

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:57 AM

well, Joe, here is one section of the Conservative Manifesto. I leave it to you to decide whether a fascist would like to have got a mandate for this:

After Brexit we also need to look
at the broader aspects of our
constitution: the relationship between
the Government, Parliament and the
courts; the functioning of the Royal
Prerogative; the role of the House
of Lords; and access to justice for
ordinary people. The ability of our
security services to defend us against
terrorism and organised crime is
critical. We will update the Human
Rights Act and administrative law to
ensure that there is a proper balance
between the rights of individuals, our
vital national security and effective
government. We will ensure that
judicial review is available to protect
the rights of the individuals against an
overbearing state, while ensuring that
it is not abused to conduct politics by
another means or to create needless
delays.

=====

A remit to alter all the checks and balances in favour of the Government? That is not what I would call centrist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:56 AM

Stan - conversly, UK right wing extremists are also seen to grab the 'centre' even further right...

Sensible moderates find themselves caught in a no-man's land minefield...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:38 AM

Joe Offer wrote: has fascism triumphed in the UK?

No but the suggestion is not exactly a surprise. I think it could be a mistake to equate the Labour party in the UK with the Democrat party in the US but here goes anyway. Ten years ago perhaps the Labour : Conservative divide was closer to the Democrat : Republican position we see today. On general principles I think that the UK has always been much further to the left than the USA. The evidence is in our Health Service, our National Insurance scheme and the general level of benefits.

Over the last ten years the Labour party has moved further to the left than it has ever been before. A sub group called Momentum has gradually taken over local party groups and now controls the whole party including the leadership. It is the Momentum line that Tony Blair was a 'Tory' and the MPs who supported him were traitors.

As Labour moves to the left there is a space in the center into which the Tory party has drifted without even trying. My point is that Labour has moved so far to the left that the center is described by them as the far right. You must have seen on this forum how easy it is to be called a Fascist if you disagree with the hard left.

It's not Fascism, it's Centrism.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:22 AM

You know, PFR, I was just thinking that there is something worse than a bad loser. A bad winner!

Bonzo, read my post of 02:48 AM. Nothing to calm down from and, as far as I can see, no other "lefty boys" need calming down either. I think you need to direct your advice to your "righty" stable mate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:06 AM

Bonz - can't get any calmer than weary resignation in the face of unbeatable unfair odds..

At least your Boris [who we know you dislike] is as not a bad winner
as the likes of Iains in all his gloating triumphalist nastiness..

Decent tories must be ashamed of all the rotters, bullies, and arseholes in your party...???


But.. on the other hand at least Jo Swinson will never be PM...!!!

Even Boris the bounder is a more tolerable personality for the job...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:05 AM

Hi

I thought I had been having a lovely dream,,,

Corbyn , Jo,swinson and Anna Soubry   all gone .......


ooooh, and to cap it .....man United won 4-0

Oh wake me up PLEASE

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 08:29 AM

Calm down lefty boys!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 07:56 AM

This bodes well for The Current Occupant who is probably taking credit for it as we fume.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM

Yeah... the result is even worse than expected..

Happy Friday the 13th..

The North has confirmed the efficacy of intensive international far right internet propaganda..

A fair fight is impossible against tory dirty fighting tricks...

Turkeys will vote for xmas...!!!

But the one glimmer of consolation and hilarity is Jo Swinson got what she deserves...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 06:32 AM

I keep tellin ya that the candidate that saturates emotions (good or bad) will influence minds more than the deliberate, calm and reasonable candidate. -in the short run-

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:59 AM

Indeed, Jim. I can see there no longer being a UK at the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:57 AM

Post again in 12 months Nigel. I hope you are right and that I will be proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:37 AM

Today 3.8% of the working population have no job. A total of 1,218,000.
I wonder just what this figure will be in 12 months. Watch this space.

On the basis that the rate has been falling almost continually since the Conservatives came to power in 2009 (although there was an initial increase continuing the previous upward trend) then I would expect it to remain low, or fall.


Graph here

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:25 AM

Just to remind some folk, the SNP won in Scotland. The Tories lost half their seats, Labour lost all but one and the Lib Dem leader lost her seat.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:21 AM

I have just thought of a Johnson-esque catch phrase. Remember long car journeys either with or as kids? Are we nearly there yet? How about every time we are confronted by a crowing Tory we ask "have we got brexit done yet?" . I'm sure it can keep us going for a few years yet!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 05:10 AM

Today 3.8% of the working population have no job. A total of 1,218,000.

I wonder just what this figure will be in 12 months. Watch this space.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployed-persons

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 03:42 AM

Looks like momentum took the labour bus straight into a brick wall. There were few survivors!

Magic grandad's election manifesto compared favourably with that of foot
He fought the 1983 general election on a hard-left manifesto famously dubbed “the longest suicide note in history” and saw his party’s worst result since the first world war.

After his resignation, it took Labour 14 years to deal with the far left and rebuild itself until it was capable of challenging the Conservative Party.

Given the similarities between the two leaders and Labour being set for an even worse defeat than Mr Foot, Mr Corbyn might have just laid the foundations for 14 years or more of uninterrupted Tory government.

Whoopy Doo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 03:21 AM

Like I said a few times before, politics has become a reality TV show. I despair at my fellow man at times but I know they are not bad or stupid. Not sure how we can get things back on track though. Maybe 5 years of Johnson on come strictly will cure the malaise?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 03:13 AM

Centrist former MPs who abandoned the two main parties over what they said were their swings to extremes have all failed to be re-elected to parliament.

The four who stood for the Independent Group for Change – the former Conservative MP Anna Soubry, and the former Labour MPs Gavin Shuker, Chris Leslie and Mike Gapes – all lost their seats to candidates in their former parties on Thursday night.

Amid a sweep of Tory gains, the former Conservative ministers David Gauke, Dominic Grieve and Anne Milton, all of whom stood as independents after they had the whip removed for voting in parliament to a block a no-deal Brexit, also lost their seats.

The veteran politician Frank Field, who resigned from Labour this summer, lost in Birkenhead. The former Labour MPs who joined the Liberal Democrats – Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger and Angela Smith – and former Tories to join the party – Sarah Wollaston, Sam Gyimah, Phillip Lee and Antoinette Sandbach – all failed to win.
Pride cometh before a "fool"
What a fantastic day!

How is the attempted coup progressing against the lawfully elected Trump?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:59 AM

Taking that a stage further, we have proven that a wafer thin manifesto, hiding from the electorate and any close examination of the manifesto and an intense diet of misleading social media posts is an effective way of winning elections.

So we already know what we can look forward to next time. Probably from all parties.

And, while the US tried this first, I am sure they will be happy with the confirmation of its effectiveness for their elections.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:48 AM

It's a sad day for democracy when an election can be won on a campaign of deceit and cowardice. Still, it has been won and it is what we have. Some analysis suggests that now Johnson has a majority we will at least leave the EU with a deal rather than crash out. There is also a glimmer of hope that the working class support for the Tory party will lead it to become more moderate. We can but hope. The biggest silver lining though is that the Brexit party is finished and the ERG has had its teeth pulled.

Always look on the bright side of life...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:37 AM

So, I think I can summarize the UK election this way: Our side is screwed.

Is there any hope in this, or has fascism triumphed in the UK? What's the future for the 2020 election in the US?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:18 AM

So Jo Swinson has lost her seat.

Whether you think the elections results or great or terrible, it is worth spending a moment to remember we only had an election at all because Jo decided to lend Johnson the LibDem votes to let him call it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:18 AM

Will the lefties takes their larruping like men or squeal for ever more.
Tis a grand day for sanity and democracy. The sensible labourites crossed the rubicon and voted tory.

326 needed for majority
Boris Johnson, Conservatives 362
Jeremy Corbyn, Labour 202
Nicola Sturgeon, SNP 48
Jo Swinson, Lib Dems 11

Looks like all the smug pontificating lefties got a smack in the face with reality.
We brexiteers won the referendum and won the election.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


So red sails in the sunset for compo and a resounding endorsement for Boris.

What a fine Christmas present. Lemons all round for the lefties(snigger, snigger) After putting up with your perpetual whining on here concerning the referendum results your case has just been blown out of the water.

Democracy rules!!!!!! Live with it.

First job of the day is to privatize the BBC, it is nothing but a nest of vipers, though the dwarf'sface on TV was a picture. All his machinations came to nowt!

I might have to dance a little jig, I cannot wait to see the loony left's reaction!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 01:29 AM

Well deserved Tory majority after people see sense at last!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:55 PM

Doesn't Jeremy Vine get a lot of work. You'd think they'd employ a few more people. I get fed up with him doing everything.

As for Labour. Its very predictable what's happened. The tactic of filling facebook with insults has worked. Everybody insulted by them has voted for someone else.

Presumably it was some sort of directive from the top. Still. they like being in opposition. Just a pity for all the poot people who are stuck withe tories shitting on them.

Still, you've had your fun.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:53 PM

Thanks Punky, much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:40 PM

bob - yes bob.. of course bob... you are always spot on with your analysis bob..
There's no greater authority on anything than you bob...

All hail the mighty fount of knowledge bob...!!!

Got a difficult question, a perplexing problem.. ask bob...

He knows, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:25 PM

Yep Stanron, he was trying to have it both ways. It brings to mind the old adage: "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:58 PM

Stanron wrote: it might have have had a much better.

Should have read

might have had a much better result.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:56 PM

I see an irony in this election result and I wonder if anyone else gets it. Jeremy Corbyn has always been fervently anti EU. As leader of the Labour party he was not allowed to promote his beliefs on this subject. He was forced to represent a party that was pro Europe. Had the Labour Party allowed him to promote his own anti-Europe beliefs it might have have had a much better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:47 PM

ooh.. freaky posting glitch...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:45 PM

As expected, the tories will always conspire to win by unfair means or foulest...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:44 PM

As expected, the tories will always conspire to win by unfair means or foulest...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:56 PM

Bonzo, Now you will be busy as a three legged dog trying to bury Boris the turd on a frozen lake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:53 PM

aye, he'll be leaving nae doubt. but hamas has nowt to do with it. he's clearly a decent man but that's not what is wanted these days. lets have total fucking eejits running the show for the benefit of their extremely wealthy friends. they can get the cretinous forelock-tuggers to give them a majority- those aging pond-life are always with us

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:10 PM

I know as much as the electorate does, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:07 PM

you clearly know fuck all about jeremy corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:49 PM

RIP Jeremy Corbyn's political career. I hear Hamas is hiring.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:44 PM

It appears Trump's twin has won - God help Britain. Sincere condolences from across the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:40 PM

It has become uncharacteristically quiet in here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:07 PM

Exit poll predicts great news!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:40 PM

My sympathy goes out to winners and losers alike. We are all losers in the final chapter. Trump is also a possible winner with his 'Russain" electoral college. Afterall its been a while coming since our Supreme court selected Bush as the executive WINNER.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:11 PM

The current exit poll suggests a Conservative majority of around 50 seats, but this is just a forecast. There's about 45 minutes before the first actual result.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:10 PM

There are now. Very depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:06 PM

Short answer Steve ............. no.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:57 PM

Any exit polls yet?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:52 PM

At last, some Tories to cross swords with! Can one of you tell me, without attacking any other party, one positive outcome of the Tories getting back into power, pleeeeease?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:45 PM

The vast majority of the Labour party is "slightly left"

As a nation(s) the UK is predominantly conservative, with a small c, as opposed the the Conservative Party, with a large C.

No extreme left wing party has ever existed for any length of time in the UK.

That is fact.

Despite what to me our rabid right wingers would have you believe.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:25 PM

Dave has nailed it in the previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:08 PM

I would like to explain to our American friends that Stanron is what we call talking out of his arse. The Labour party is far from the hard left that our right wing faction here would have you believe. It is in fact modelled on the very moderate and successful Scandanavian social democratic model. The reason that they believe that Labour has moved to the left is that they have moved ebso far to the right they could be modelled on the 1930 national socialists. But you know all about that of course as your own president tries these tricks himself. Hopefully we will be rid of both our problems soon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 03:24 PM

Watching from Mrrica. Best wishes to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 03:15 PM

robomatic wrote: When it's all over, mop up the blood and come home

I would like to explain to our American friends that UK hard left, although a majority on this forum, is actually a minority in the country as a whole and a small minority at that. Their views tend to expressions of unpleasantness in different ways and this, in my opinion, reflects the fact that they know it's 'all been over' for quite a long time and they are unable to come to terms with this reality.

A group called 'Momentum' has managed to gain control of the Labour Party and moved it's agenda to the far left. They view the policies that allowed Tony Blair to win elections as betrayal of Socialist values and the MPs who supported them as traitors. This has split the party and more than a few of the old Mps have left.

Brexit has also split the Tory Party. The result of this election, only a couple of hours to go, will show which party has won the battle of the splits.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 02:38 PM

Where are Gilbert & Sullivan and Spitting Image when you really need them? Where is John Oliver?

Good luck, Brits! You're still our Mum! When it's all over, mop up the blood and come home!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 02:18 PM

well, it's maybe because the tories and their chums keep referring to this as 'the brexit election' and folk are past caring. when it is all over we should have a general election asap

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 01:30 PM

We went to vote in our village hall polling station at 10am and the place was completely deserted except for the two ladies sitting behind the table giving out the voting slips. They looked very bored and lonely! Hope more folk turned up later (maybe in the evening) but there are many people here who are retired, so there should have been more voters around.
We haven't had any political leaflets through the door or canvassers.
Bit of a dead loss isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 11:33 AM

Spiffing stuff. The world of corbynistas:


https://unherd.com/2019/12/how-labour-betrayed-their-supporters/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:50 AM

Brexit is like watching your library being burnt down by people who never learnt to read.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:25 AM

Oh..... and a bit of personal advice to add to what I posted yesterday:-

If you are not sure whether to vote for the Brexit Party or the Conservative Party, please remember that it is acceptable to put a 'X' by candidates for both parties and just let it be sorted out at the count.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:06 AM

Then tell us what you know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:54 AM

They are bad candidates for 2 entirely different reasons. I am not subject to viewing any tabloids, even the ones posted here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:07 AM

You've been reading too many of our tabloids, Donuel. One of our candidates is an inveterate, confounded, cowardly liar who refuses interviews and hides in a fridge whilst the other (who many find unattractive for many other reasons) has bothered to put himself out and about in full exposure to promote an ambitious manifesto for putting the ordinary people of this country out of their ten-year-long misery. Do feel free to comment on our politics but do be good enough to choose your sources a bit more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:55 AM

Are the lefties having a bad day? I guess compo's swan song is red sails in the sunset!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:05 AM

I do not envy your choice between two unimagibly bad disembling candidates but will watch the polls anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:01 AM

Great comment from a reader on the Guardian website (my bold):

"Whether you’re a tank-topped bum boy, a piccaninny with a watermelon smile, a Muslim bank robber, one of the feckless criminal working classes, an ill-raised and ignorant child of a single mother or just someone who feels sick at the thought of another five years of this racist, homophobic, misogynistic, absurdly privileged outcast from the Village of the Damned it’s probably a good idea to vote tactically today wherever it’s possible to give a Tory a well-deserved kicking.

I don’t care if Swinson is untrustworthy or Corbyn doesn’t watch the Queen’s Speech. Boris Johnson wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire, he’d sell off the NHS to Trump in a heartbeat, and he is definitely wanking behind that sign."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:56 AM

Wat is striking about this election is how ill-informed we all are. The Conservative manifesto says nothing about what will happen after 2020 - i.e. for 4/5 of the lifetime of a Parliament. The whole focus of the Conservative campaign was on what happens in January 2020; almost everything else was excluded. It was also claimed that getting this 'done' would allow them to look at new hospitals and nursing levels: none of that is dependent on Brexit. There were a lot of near-idle days at the end of the last Parliamentary session where some of the groundwork for this could have been done. But it wasn't. Then again near the end of the last Parliament, but before the election was announced, Javid was supposed to present a budget, but it got pulled. During the campaign Johnson has done his best to avoid any sort of critical examination of his plans. Yes, is he is happy to go to places where can reel off his stump speech, but nowhere where he can be really challenged on its detail. The section on page 48 about the relationship between the Government and the rest (Parliament, the Lords, the courts) could mean anything from no change to the equivalent of the Enabling Act.

We all are ill-informed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:21 AM

Finally put your spade down have you?

I wonder how many votes the lefty luvvie lost last night.

https://order-order.com/2019/12/12/coogan-leave-voters-ill-informed-ignorant/#disqus_thread
That will be well received in the brexit voting labour heartlands.
Calling people stupid does not win votes.

It is Socialism that depends on creating ignorance and then exploiting envy.
I wonder why the abbacus has been banished from the airwaves in recent days? She must be some contortionist to put her foot in her mouth each time she speaks.
But then clever is not a word that easily springs to mind when describing the shadow front bench!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM

Seen on Facebook earlier.

If your polling station is in a school and you vote Tory, you may as well shit on a child's desk on the way out :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 03:32 AM

And there, I rest my case. QED.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 03:25 AM

Oh dear, back to ex-squaddie barrack-room behaviour again. Carry on, Private Parts.

Surely the demonstrable stupidity must be yours. Have you reached the bottom of the hole you are digging? The barrack room behaviour is yours backwarrd man, along with a potty mouth. When losing you start insulting or fighting. Typical lefty traits. It can only happen when ideology replaces commonsense. Never mind, if the polls are correct your tunnel vision is leading you all out of the promised land and compo's allotment will suffer a blight for decades.

BOJO has the MOJO to get things done.

Corbyn the clown will be run out of town!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 03:16 AM

”Maybe being a blockhead numbs all feeling.”

Oh dear, back to ex-squaddie barrack-room behaviour again. Carry on, Private Parts.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 06:51 PM

Be wary of some 'official' tactical voting advice
intended to dupe anti tory voters into delivering wins to tory candidates...


One such dirty trick was exposed earlier today,
but I didn't catch the full news report, so do not have full details.

Obviously, the tory party will deny knowledge and involvement...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 06:35 PM

The LibDems, who are a somewhat distant second in North Cornwall, have blown it here (a solid leave area) via their Stop Brexit yarn. Also, they sent out a very dishonest leaflet to every home which contained a bar chart showing the Con/Lab/LibDem vote in 2017. The LibDem column has been significantly manipulated upwards to give the impression that the seat is far more marginal than it actually is. The brexiteers on the other hand have successfully sold the country the downright lie that the LibDem stance was undemocratic. It isn't at all, though it was naive and foolish in the extreme. So I'll hold my nose and vote LibDem, as Labour haven't got a hope in hell here, in the hope that I'm helping to oust the stinking Tory who holds our seat. My mum, a lifelong socialist, has also decided that she should vote tactically here for the LibDems. Another clothes peg on the nose.

My daughter and her partner live in the Truro and Falmouth constituency. Against expectations, Labour came close last time. They don't need any prodding from me to vote Labour.

My son and daughter-in-law live in the highly-marginal Richmond Park seat. I think they'll be voting to oust the contemptible Tory Zac Goldsmith in favour of the LibDems.

A lot of tactical voting to kick out the Tories and I highly recommend it. You may be a passionate remainer but if you vote according to your principles or tribal instincts you may effectively be voting for brexit. Let's get tactical! We can always go to confession later...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 05:20 PM

Latest polls:

Opinium: CON: 45% (-1) LAB: 33% (+2) LDEM: 12% (-1)
YouGov: CON: 43% (-) LAB: 34% (+2) LDEM: 12% (-2) BREX: 3% (-1)

YouGov MRP: CON: 339 (-20) LAB: 231 (+20) LDEM: 15 (+2) BREX: 0 (-) SNP: 41 (-2)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Yesterday’s in Brackets):

       Tories: 2/5 (1/3)
       No overall: 9/4 (5/2)
       Labour: 20/1 (33/1)
       Lib Dems: 500/1 (500/1)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 05:10 PM

No Idea?
Maybe being a blockhead numbs all feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 04:48 PM

”How does it feel to be an idiot?”

No idea, perhaps you’d care to enlighten us? You have plenty of experience.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 04:17 PM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 03:45 PM

Has Max signed ‘Semen’ Staines’s pet-troll up as a Moderator?

Thought not.

How does it feel to be an idiot?



Subject: RE: Can't log in, is there a problem?
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 18 Dec 17 - 11:16 AM
It's best not to use those alternate server names. Mudcat is designed to operate at this URL: https://mudcat.org/

Those other URLs are primarily for administrative access. Using them can cause us problems - at least, that's what Max told me.

There were a number of people who had cookie problems last week, and some were not able to reset their cookies for a day or two.

Max lives in State College, which seems to have some of the worst weather in Pennsylvania. He gets nasty storms that knock his power out for days on end. And then Mudcat doesn't work, and he can't tell us what's happening.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 03:46 PM

There's been so many lies spreading about during this election campaign so it's good to be able to share a truthful message that I have just received from the Chief Presiding Officer of the 2019 General Election. I copy'n'paste it in full: -

"All our research has shown that the outstanding importance of the 2019 election means that there will be a record turnout and so to avoid overcrowding, we have taken the difficult decision to spread the voting time over two days. It is too late to arrange this by districts, so we are have decided to do this on a party basis.
VOTERS FOR THE FOLLOWING PARTIES TO VOTE ON 12th DECEMBER -
* Green Party
* Labour Party
* Liberal Democrat Party
* Plaid Cymru
* Scottish Nationalist Party
VOTERS FOR THE FOLLOWING PARTIES TO VOTE ON 13th DECEMBER -
* Brexit Party
* Conservative Party
* English Democrats
VOTERS FOR THE FOLLOWING PARTIES TO VOTE ON
EITHER DAY -
* Church of the Militant Elvis Party
* Monster Raving Loony Party
* Space Navies Party"

I recognise the signature at the bottom of the letter, so it must be authentic, besides, who ever saw a lie posted on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 03:45 PM

Has Max signed ‘Semen’ Staines’s pet-troll up as a Moderator?

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:42 PM

pfr:

I have had two identical leaflets delivered at the same time. They came from the Green Party - a shade unfortunate!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:23 PM

Awe is one of a number of servers fronted by a load balancer. I assume that the background processing is also load balanced between servers too. Nothing wrong with posting to an individual server in a farm but, if that server is currently not updating the database holding the posts, you risk losing whatever you post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:21 PM

Can I just ask..
.. anyone had a word with the liberals about all the paper mail they are posting out,
to persuade us to vote for their greener policies...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:12 PM

I remember that also. We all know who has carried on posting when the main site is down!Perhaps that is why he is called the backward man.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:10 PM

I missed that message. I will try to find it to read it properly. I can think of technical reasons in terms of load management but I would be guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:57 PM

"Mudcat only available (sometimes) via awe.mudcat.org"

I seem to recall that we were strongly asked not to use awe. Can't remember why now, but I've been obediently avoiding it for a few months.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 11:01 AM

BWM - looks like Boris's parents didn't get their money's worth from his education...???

Personally, I regard Eton as a posher terrorist training camp...

-----


"Yep, fingers are much better tools for the job ;)..
and they don't need batteries..."

as the wife of an impotent tory MP said to the Anne Summers sales lady...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 10:50 AM

Sanity versus lefty ideology. Our world hangs in the balance!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 10:45 AM

”Eton excels in popagating the gentlemanly art of lying convincingly...”

But that’s precisely what Johnson doesn’t do, does he? To those of us whose tongues aren’t firmly planted in his big, fat, hairy arse-crack, his lies are blatantly obvious. And, of course, his mouth moves...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 10:27 AM

No WTO court because Trump refuses to appoint replacement representatives.

Oh, how convenient for him!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 10:16 AM

.. 'propagating'.. oh bollocks to typing with itchy watery eyes...
Yep, fingers are much better tools for the job ;)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 10:00 AM

.. 'propagating'.. oh bollocks to typing with itchy watery eyes...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 09:56 AM

This election campaign shamelessly openly celebrates that 'might is right',
'the survival of the nastiest',
and 'the ends justify the means'...

Boris - the cudlly friendly fuddled face of international far right supremacy...

Eton excels in popagating the gentlemanly art of lying convincingly...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 09:23 AM

"From midnight on Wednesday, the WTO court will no longer adjudicate on trade disputes"

I have asked Brexiteers here before for their comments on how we can trade on WTO rules if the dispute resolution court is shut down, but so far to no avail.

Anyway, I invite their comments again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 08:26 AM

So Laura K and Peston have apologised for sending out the fake article about the assault on the aide at Leeds.   Very good. Now the more difficult thing: what do you intend to do to prevent being misled in that way again?

… well?


A silence reigns.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 08:15 AM

The Tories really are a filthy, disgusting, shameless gang of liars, aren't they?

And, on 'Politics Live' today, we had their BBC mouthpiece, the harridan Kuenssberg, giving out that 'postal voting is going badly for Labour'. How the fuck does she know that? Don't our electoral regulations preclude that kind of information being made available?

WTF has happened to our once-greatly-admired political system?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 05:54 AM

Mudcat only available (sometimes) via awe.mudcat.org

Must be Russian interference to stop the half dozen of us who frequently post on this thread influencing the world!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 10:15 AM

I was never a fan of Wedgie Benn. His archetypal take on EC/EU was always predicated on the old lie that we are run by a "bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels." What he never told us was that free trade with Europe help us to thrive; that all our domestic laws are in our own hands; that we agree with the general consensus on almost all EU regulations; that a tiny amount only of our GDP is tied up with Europe (currently about one percent); that we have a considerable say, as a larger nation, in the running of the EU; and that we have the veto on contentious major policy areas (a European army, for example). With 28 countries and half a billion people the EU, just like any big nation, suffers from the disease of gigantism (as John Seymour put it). There's plenty wrong with the EU but there's a lot more good than bad in my opinion. We haven't had another pan-European war, and neither I nor my son has ever been called up, for example. Tony Benn was a long way from being my kind of leftie. Were he still alive today. I'd be wanting to know what sort of "control" he thinks we'll have when we have to go begging to the US and China for trade deals, and when we can't get the staff to run our NHS and care system once we make those EU citizens submit to a bloody points system. Wrong about most things most of the time, Wedgie.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 09:50 AM

Being a decent bloke does not mean you are always right.

Benn said what he did based on how the he thought the EU was going to develop. Some of those things have happened - such as the currency - and some haven't.

It is quite possible he would feel the same about the current EU. But he might put more weight on the social protections than he did. Who can know for certain? I would not be surprised if he mirrored Corbyn's 7/10 comment, more or less. Though even that is far too subtle for the all-or-nothing brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 09:26 AM

..well.. we all had things to say about all sorts of issues way back in the past years of our lives...

Who knows what Tony Benn would have said right now in 2019...?????

what with the potential for some intelligent well informed folks to respond to different circumstances,
evolve, reconsider, change their minds, and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 09:23 AM

And the electorate will have their say on Thursday!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 09:06 AM

And Tony Benn had things to say about the EU YouTube Here

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 09:00 AM

DMcG - better late than never...
I was in process of posting this reply when mudcat suddenly blacked out from exhaustion and old age..............................


Yeah - Tony Benn.. He was guest speaker at my Poly back when I was a student, and also Paul Foot...

Two decent blokes..
Proof that not all posh boys have to end up being ruthless wicked depraved C@ntservatives...

..and Foot had a few words to say about the extent of abuse in top ruling class boys schools...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:56 AM

The crowd, you say?

Yes, the online videos of Corbyn meetings do show crowds. I am sure it was an absolute coincidence but the clip of Corbyn at Bristol shown on Newsnight was a head-on film, so no hint there was anyone else there at all.

The only crowd shots I have seen of Johnson are at factories where all the employees are herded to listen to the great man. Well, its a paid hour off work, isn't it?

And we know how popular the idea of having the general public around Johnson is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:50 AM

We went to see Mr Corbyn speak at Nelson this morning and he seemed very reasoned, polite, composed and the crowd had no dissenters.
We were surprised to be randomly interviewed by Sky News as vox pop. I bet it doesn't make it to on air. Our views don't seem to follow what London thinks that the North of England think.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:06 AM

I just find it so totally incredible that so many (allegedly) people will (allegedly) be voting Tory

Could be they just detest magic grandad.Who can blame them. Even members of his own party think he is a marxist menace.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Martin
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:00 AM

I just find it so totally incredible that so many (allegedly) people will (allegedly) be voting Tory after what they've done to them - what is wrong with them (the Tories & the robots voting (allegedly) for them?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:39 AM

It would be a reckless person that placed a bet on outcomes at the moment. I suspect people are so fed up with the prolonged agony of brexit that they give the pollsters anything, just to make them go away. With the present gap between the major parties and tactical voting, any outcome is possible. Meanwhile the rats are kicking 7 bells out of each other inside the sack.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:23 AM

Oh, I have been waiting for that. In fact I expected it hours ago.

I have little doubt that Ashworth was giving his honest thoughts. I don't buy the 'banter' excuse.   

Ashworth has been opposed to Corbyn for a long time - he was opposed to Corbyn becoming leader, for example. There have always been a section of Parliamentarians who think losing this election is worth it if they can get rid get of Corbyn, and it looks as if Ashworth is in that group. And, yes, it makes it much harder for Labour to focus on the NHS rather than the stupidity of his behaviour.

I am sure what he said is a reasonably accurate account of his view. That may or may not match reality. We will find out in 48 hours or so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:09 AM

snigger, snigger

Guido to the fore! AGAIN........
https://order-order.com/2019/12/10/ashworth-civil-service-machine-will-move-quickly-safeguard-national-security-corbyn/

On the prospects for Labour nationally Ashworth tells his worried interlocutor:

    “I’ve been going round these national places, it’s dire for Labour… it’s dire… it’s awful for them, and it’s the combination of Corbyn and Brexit….outside of the city seats… it’s abysmal out there… they can’t stand Corbyn and they think Labour’s blocked Brexit. I think middle-class graduates – remainy people – Labour’s doing well among… but not in big enough numbers to deny the Tories a majority.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 07:07 AM

DISHONESTY ON THE SIDE OF A BUS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 06:35 AM

More bare faced lies from the Tory propaganda machine.

Jack story was not fake but claim of aide being punched was The

How much lower can they get. I hope all you Tories out there are proud of your party and its leader.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 06:00 AM

Honesty, on the side of a bus

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 06:28 PM

On that same theme, the Sun goes with a photo of when Johnson was finally persuaded to look at the phone with the caption 'Boris studies the photo of a sick child who was forced to sleep on a hospital floor' wirmth (as far as I see it) no mention of the interview and his efforts to avoid looking at the photo. This is in an article about the MOMENTUM MOB (their capitals.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 01:39 PM

I have just been looking to see who is saying what about the Johnson declining to look at the photo of the four year old until he was really pressured into it.

No mention of it on the Express pages, so far I have found. There is an article saying Matt Hancock's aide was hit during a visit, but first of all there is no mention that the visit came about because of the Johnson mess.

Nor is there any mention that the aide has withdrawn the accusation when shown a video of the event.

We anticipate being told order.order's detailed and unbiased analysis any moment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 01:03 PM

Unfortunate cross-post there, pfr.   Clearly I was not referring to your most recent post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 01:00 PM

Tony Benn springs to mind …

(He quite often does!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 01:00 PM

Iains - how deep do you suggest we dig...???

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/shocking-scale-of-sexual-abuse-at-uk-boarding-schools-revealed-by-itv-documentary/

..and that was just lying in full sight on the surface,
didn't need to dig at all...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:52 PM

Personally, I'd prefer fewer privileged ex public school politicians in the Labour party...

However, at least the Labour poshies will have gained some valuable insight
from over many years mixing with and learning about compassion & human decency us mere plebs...

Unlike the tories where shit floats to the top and stays there...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:41 PM

I wonder how many of them had benefited from public school education...???



Compo, harridan Harman(and her hubby) and Patricia Hewitt for starters.
All staunch labour members

Keep digging!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:25 PM

btw.. my hazy memory is that those pro paedo campaigners were also interviewed,
and allowed a platform, in more mainstream media
back in the 'too liberal' 70s and 80s...

I wonder how many of them had benefited from public school education...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:19 PM

American celebrities have been arrested, and sued big time for stealing and damaging reporter's and fan's phones...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 11:51 AM

Another gem from the fluffy, warm, cuddly Tory supporters.

Our resident Tories on here must be so proud...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 11:08 AM

More evidence of the kind of spineless, lying POS that our ex-Squaddie 'Semen' Staines Plant holds in high regard - https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/boris-johnson-pockets-reporters-phone-17387948

Disgusting specimens, all three of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 09:36 AM

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song..........♯𝅘𝅥

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:56 AM

He is an extreme right-wing plant. Please ignore him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:38 AM

That's because no-one understands you Donuel ;-)

And they will never learn :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:28 AM

More evidence of the disgusting dishonesty of the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:14 AM

DAve if we ignore the ignorant how would they learn? I'm not right wing and I am ignored (;^/..

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:07 AM

See what you've done now, John! Don't encourage him. Everyone with an ounce or more of sense realises that right wing bloggers only tell part of the story while glossing over the rest and ignores them. Even more important is ignoring someone who not only quotes right wing bloggers but has never voiced an original thought.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 08:02 AM

I merely quote polls.
But if you want dirt, her you go! Compo and a piece of PIE.


https://order-order.com/2019/12/09/corbyns-1980s-socialist-newspaper-published-pro-paedo-articles/

Magic grandad is quite a piece of work, is he not?

The backward man has yet to demonstrate guido lies. But you have to admit when it comes to exposing people Guido is very good.

https://www.politicalite.com/labour-2/labour-the-paedophile-connection/

Here is another little gem for your delectation and delight:

https://order-order.com/2019/12/09/corbynista-breakdown-begins-prematurely/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 07:34 AM

”Quite conversely to 2017, as the UK enters the final week of this December election the Tories’ poll lead is in fact growing – and Labour is falling back.

According to the Britain Elects poll tracker, after a previously shrinking lead, the Tories start the week on 42.9% – +0.4% on last week; and Labour stalling with a fall of -0.1% to 33%.

Famously, online Corbynistas declare they only trust Survation polls, as they were the most accurate pollsters in 2017. Obviously most other pollsters are mere Tory stooges…

Unfortunately for Corbyn’s true believers, they waited only to see their favourite polling company declare a last-minute Tory surge of 3% up to a 14% lead over Labour, with Corbyn dropping by 2% on the last poll.

Even more infuriatingly for Labour was yesterday’s YouGov poll confirming the Tories now lead among working-class voters by 17% – in comparison to the 7% lead Labour enjoyed just four years ago. The Corbynistas are already making their excuses.”

Any decent, fair, honest contributor to a thread would indicate that he was quoting directly from an Extreme Right-Wing Blogger’s site. Word for word from ‘Semen’ Staines’s order-order.com (which would be better-named ‘ordure-ordure.com’).

You really are as deceitful as those whose anal sphincters you appear to take such delight in tickling with that brown tongue, aren’t you Squaddie?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 06:20 AM

Here is a prediction I made elsewhere, in the context of electoral reform:

In fact, in the event of a minority Tory government, my prediction would be that they will bring Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement back (it is NOT a deal, whatever anyone says), all the Tories will vote for it because it was something they had to sign up to do to be a candidate, and there will be sufficient Labour rebels to allow it to pass. At which point, we can forget about electoral reform for a long time.

We can be moderately sure what would happen with a Tory majority (though it WAS Johnson saying it, so who knows?) Do others agree with my assessment if there is a Tory minority?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 06:03 AM

In case anyone had forgotten, many sources outside the fascist press understand that Corbyn and the Labour party, far from being the Marxist bogeymen the rabid right would have us believe, are pretty mainstream social democrats. I have linked a number of articles before.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 05:42 AM

A last minute game changer? Oh I hope so!

Quite conversely to 2017, as the UK enters the final week of this December election the Tories’ poll lead is in fact growing – and Labour is falling back.

According to the Britain Elects poll tracker, after a previously shrinking lead, the Tories start the week on 42.9% – +0.4% on last week; and Labour stalling with a fall of -0.1% to 33%.

Famously, online Corbynistas declare they only trust Survation polls, as they were the most accurate pollsters in 2017. Obviously most other pollsters are mere Tory stooges…

Unfortunately for Corbyn’s true believers, they waited only to see their favourite polling company declare a last-minute Tory surge of 3% up to a 14% lead over Labour, with Corbyn dropping by 2% on the last poll.

Even more infuriatingly for Labour was yesterday’s YouGov poll confirming the Tories now lead among working-class voters by 17% – in comparison to the 7% lead Labour enjoyed just four years ago. The Corbynistas are already making their excuses.

I just wish that pollsters could be trusted,

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 05:09 AM

Rest assured, DMcG, that my travel plans never include drives to Hinkley C. I got the mileage estimate by googling "Bude to Hinkley Point" but then I forgot to add the extra bit needed because of my house being on the wrong side of Bude.

What we need this week is a spot of dementia tax, Jennifer's ear, that bigoted woman or two days to save the pound. Something to entertain us in this most tedious of campaigns, and, who knows, a last-minute game-changer...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:42 AM

But the only alternative to Bojo is the Marxist Raving Loony party.
It rather clarifies the choice- Tory sanity, compo insanity.
We will know by Friday night!

As one chappie said on a blog:
But given the limited options available we realistically have no option but to vote Boris. Anything else really would trash our economy, our nation, our culture and our society.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:36 AM

Trump blocking WTO appointments

While this particular event might be news, it is just the latest in a long series where Trump is trying to limit the effectiveness of the WTO system. You know, the one 'no-dealers' are adamant we could trade under.

I would be more interested in hearing Brexiteers' reflection on how they think that will develop than their analysis of Steve's travel arrangements.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:24 AM

I agree, Dave. I was saying to someone last week that at this stage in the events, politicians are basically salesmen. You want your 'product' to sell better than its competitors, so you emphasise its strongest points, avoid wherever possible its disadvantages and limitations and if you know a weakness of your opposition's product, you may well drop it in to build up the advantages of yours.

This is, in part, why most politicians are suboptimal. The skill they need to do the job - rational thought, careful consideration of options, detailed study of what a proposed law means in practice - are almost directly opposed to what they need to do to get the job (saying what you think in convincing and blow the consequences.)

So yes, that is the norm for all politicians. But Trump and Johnson go far beyond that because they are quite willing to claim benefits for their product that they know are simply not there. The honest salesman restricts themselves to what the product can do while showing it in the best possible light, the dishonest one doesn't care as long as they get the sale.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:12 AM

I think all politicians throughout history have been economical with the truth at times DMcG. I think Trump was the first to make it into an art form but Johnson seems to have perfected it on this side of the pond.

There is a huge difference between election manifesto statements, which everyone knows are plans rather than promises, and the out and out porkies being spouted by BoJo himself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:08 AM

The original Brexit!
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/original-brexit-how-tremendous-ice-age-waterfalls-cut-britain-europe

Some geologists posit that the only way to generate the energy for such volumes of meltwater would be by an impact. eg akin to the much later Firestone event and the Pleistocene megafauna wipeout.

Lyell and Uniformitarianism is increasingly being shown to be a myth,
unlike compo aggravating global warming with all the hot air he produces.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 03:55 AM

I can't speak for anyone else on this site, but I think there are things of enough importance happening that I could not spare the time to fret whether your claimed distance from your house the Hinkley was spot on. I assumed you would be either referring to an odometer reading, or one to somewhere not far from the power station, then guess the last bit.

I am afraid I am more concerned by the various lies, misrepresentations and distortions of the senior members of all parties, than whether Steve was a mile or two out. Sorry, Steve, but how far you have to travel is not that important in the scheme of things as far as the election goes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:33 PM

I know how to spell Hinkley. My bloody spellchecker puts a C in it every soddin' time I type it. Grr!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:23 PM

Well, Nigel, I did admit that my figure wasn't as the crow flies. As for your 2.7 mile discrepancy, two things. First, my house is three miles south of Bude, so three miles further away from Hinckley C. Second, you have to have lived round here for thirty years to know all those country lane shortcuts...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 06:58 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:31 PM

Hinckley Point is 106 miles from Bude. OK,

Lucky you. Google puts you closer: The distance between Bude and Hinkley Point C nuclear power Station is 67 miles. The road distance is 103.3 miles.

Neither of which gives as much as 106 miles. From Here

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 06:31 PM

What's that big rockslide we're waiting for.. the Canary Islands....???

The mega tsunami projected to wipe out East coast USA,
and most of South England...

Bet the tories will blame that on Corbyn...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:43 PM

It is suggested by some geologists that the chevrons in Madagascar were created by a 300 feet high tsunami. The 1958 Lituya Bay earthquake created a rockslide. The sudden displacement of water resulted in a megatsunami that washed out trees to a maximum elevation of 1,720 feet.
Shit happens!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:31 PM

Hinckley Point is 106 miles from Bude. OK, not as the crow flies, but there a damn great big wodge of Somerset sticking out into the sea twixt there and here. Round here we're a damn sight more worried about the listening station at CSOS Morwenstow (GCHQ's ear on the world) which is only five miles away and reputedly the fourth biggest terrorist target in the country (dunno what the first three are). I have a good few mates working up there and I reckon they're watching the bloody test matches in ultra-HD most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:23 PM

Oi, I'm half a mile inland as the crow flies. The geology around here is safe (upper Carboniferous massive turbidite sandstones interbedded with thinner shales). A bit folded (well a lot folded, frankly, thanks to the Variscan orogeny, but I'm too far from the coast to worry about slumps). I can't flood either. Who's a clever boy then! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 04:47 PM

The wise man bought his house atop a cliff.
tell that to the people near mundesley and happisburgh

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 01:50 PM

yeah but.. still too close to the fall out from collapsed and flooded Hinkley Point..

Never mind, it will give Boris a radiation suit photo opp...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 01:44 PM

The wise man bought his house atop a cliff.

Only if it is far enough back from the edge. Still, a geology background should help decide if it is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 01:35 PM

Well I'm less than half a mile from the Bristol Channel but my house is 120 feet above sea level so I'm immune from tsunamis. The wise man bought his house atop a cliff...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 01:12 PM

I despair - I vowed never to vote tactically for the liberals again
after the great betrayal of 2010...???

Oh well, we just had an earthquake in Scrumpyshire..
[a warning of bigger quakes to come...???]
Hinkley Point is built over a fault line,
and we haven't had a Bristol Channel Tsunami for a few centuries...

Could that potential catastrophe be worse than Boris winning...???????????????


..well obviously.. yes,
but he'd have to be trusted with the disaster emergency rescue and relief...

Never mind, it'd be an excellent photo opportunity for him
in his wellies and hi viv gear.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 12:57 PM

500.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 12:48 PM

PFR I wish I shared your confidence. I know Boris has a superb record of delivering but the polls are still too close to be sure he will be able to deliver a majority, or even win. Still Friday 13th cannot be unlucky for everyone- barring an impact event of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 12:42 PM

That would be more like Fright Night, PFR.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 12:25 PM

'Friday the 13th' says it all about the prospect of Boris winning...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 12:13 PM

Well come friday 13th we shall know who is right and who is wrong.
He cares about as much for the Jewish people as he dows for the "bogtrotting Irish" or the "theiving" Travellers, or "hippopotamus - like" black Britains, or "teatpot" homosexual Irish politicians
Obviously learnt nothing while on your hols. Still trying to pick fights by misquoting. Just behave yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:52 AM

Don't mind who you respond to Dave
I've finished here anyway - I'd forgotten how easy he is to knock over
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:34 AM

It's the attention he wants but I see that there is no use pursuing that line of reason. Please feel free to continue and I shall not respond to either. Makes it easier all round.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:23 AM

"Don't engage with him, Jim"
Why not - his arguments are as full of holes as a string vest
He cares about as much for the Jewish people as he dows for the "bogtrotting Irish" or the "theiving" Travellers, or "hippopotamus - like" black Britains, or "teatpot" homosexual Irish politicians
Scratch a racist bigot and there's no telling what you'll find under the skin
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:12 AM

Don't engage with him, Jim. You know where that leads. For every bit of propaganda he comes up with about Labour there is twice as much ammunition against the Tories. It really isn't worth the effort. Just let the facts speak for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:12 AM

TO BE FAIR - IT IS IN THEIR "LILY-WHITE" GENES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:09 AM

"Your pathetic attempts at whataboutism are not being listened to."
And never will be wile Corbyn poses a theat to the status quo
Theire in nothing more antisemitic than using trumped up charges of non-existent antisemitism to win elections - no Jews - no antisemitism
CREDIT WHERE CREDIT'S DUE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 10:59 AM

windrush.

but actually, mine was a serious question - there has been a major realignment in tory policies in recent years and many of the leaders have left or are unhappy. many mps and other people professed mistrust/dislike of johnson. i wonder how many voters are similarly disaffected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 10:58 AM

Labour is undergoing an official incestigation, the snow white Tories are not!

Your pathetic attempts at whataboutism are not being listened to.
That speaks volumes to rational people!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 10:50 AM

No Jews - no antisemitism - unless Israel has managed to get that written officially into an accepted definition
Wonder when The ories will get round to carrying out a quater an efficient enquiry into their ISLAMOPHOBIA PROBLEM or does this sort of thing only count when the victims can be used as political footballs
BEG PARDON - THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 10:06 AM

i wonder if there are many tories who won't vote for the extremists who remain.

I wonder if there are many labourites will not vote for the anti-semitic labour party?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 09:53 AM

well, the tories seem to have purged their party of the more sane elements and the one nation lot. i wonder if there are many tories who won't vote for the extremists who remain. at least we know now what a conservative voter is about - and prepared to tolerate

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 08:45 AM

There are many good people in both Labour and Tory parties, the low grad e leaders are certainly not representative of those!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 08:34 AM

We are the same, John :-(

The Observer gives some good advice on who to vote for today. Anyone but Johnson! Sadly we cannot make much difference in our constituencies but we can register our disgust at the serial liar by reducing the majorities as much as we can.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 08:27 AM

We have a dreadful party-line-toeing Tory MP - astonishing for a small town with inner-city problems, big drug-problem with the attendant crime issues, high unemployment, no buses worth talking about, acute shortage of doctors (4 weeks wait to see a doctor), etc. But this has been a ‘safe’ Tory seat for the past hundred years.

So I voted for the party that almost always comes closest to unseating the Tory. Probably a vain hope, but who knows...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 08:15 AM

I couldn't vote for Grieve. Whatever his stance on Brexit, he's a Tory, and the Tories are the party of self-interest and the rich. If I can't actually help to get a Labour candidate elected, which I can't here, I'll do the next best thing and help to keep the Tories out. Yes I know that's tribal and that he's not a Tory any more, but he's a Tory through and through and he's said the usual terrible tabloid things about Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:58 AM

It would be interesting to knowhow many of us would vote for our side, whoever they had put up.

I think I covered that earlier, so far is it relates to me. I try to vote for people who I judge to work best for their community which is why in the past I have voted for people who are not 'of my tribe.' But in this case the matter is so important I don't feel I can do that.

So what tribe are you referring to? Labour/Tory or Leave/Remain? In the second case I cannot imagine a Leaver they could suggest I would want to vote for, because I see Leave itself being so harmful. So if Labour put an adamant Leaver up in my ward against a Dominic Grieve, there would be no question: I would vote for Grieve.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:51 AM

The crucial thing is to do whatever it takes to try to keep the Tories out. I will do what I always do and vote tactically for the LibDems.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:37 AM

It would be interesting to knowhow many of us would vote for our side, whoever they had put up.

It feels sort of tribal. i don't see any opinions being changed.

Apparently a lot of tory voters are going to vote Lib Dem in the south, because of Brexit.

And a lot of Labour voters just aren't going to vote in the North because of Corbyn.

Its hard deserting your tribe. tory voters can't bring themselves to vote Labour and Labour voters can't bring themselves to vote Boris/Tory.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:34 AM

I wonder if Bozzer is going to pay for the 40 imaginary hospitals with the £350 million pounds a week he promised to save? I guess we will never know as he has not got the guts to stand up to the kind of questioning that the BBC reserve for Labour politicians. Why anyone would vote for a man with no integrity, no courage and no redeeming features is beyond me. I suppose he is the pinnacle of their aspirations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 07:16 AM

Oh Dear! Back to the Ad hominem attacks again.

Andrew Marr asked the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell: “You were here a little over a month ago and you were saying your manifesto, unlike many of the others, would be fully-costed. Sadly, that is not true. Is it?

“You announced that you were going to give £58billion to WASPI women. Where is that money coming from?”

More of labour in the dreamtime....... with the result of putting the economy in a nightmare.
There is a weary sense of déjà vu here. One thing Labour can always be relied on for is the destruction of the economy.
A bit of a sorry legacy! I assume anyone that votes labour has undergone a frontal lobotomy, or have totally lost the power of reason.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 06:48 AM

Nothing new there, Jim. The right wing press have been dressing up Tory propaganda as news for years!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 06:39 AM

"The catastrophe that is Labour?:
Source of information
ALAN MABUTT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 06:05 AM

Are bullies anything like Bullingdon boys Bonzo? You know, the ones who burn tenners in front of homeless people or stick their dicks in pigs mouths? Or are they more like the ones who force disabled people to work at inappropriate jobs or starve to death? Or maybe the uncaring, unfeeling government that turns a blind eye to food banks and rampant poverty?

I'll take my chance with the "lefties" who care more about poor people than the rich and powerful anyday. If taking money off the best paid to give to the poorest is being a "lefty bully", then count me in!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:43 AM

Absolutely Iains, these lefty bullies don't have a clue!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:34 AM

The catastrophe that is Labour?:


https://www.costofcorbyn.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgtGEx-ul5gIVx7HtCh2fWwBVEAAYASAAEgIfq_D_BwE

Marriage tax
Stealth tax on drivers
Higher INheritance tax
STEALTH TAX ON HEATING
Small Business tax
Pension Tax

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:13 AM

The failure to challenge his incessant lies by BBC interviewers and chairs of debates is utterly shameful. Every lie should be challenged every time before he's allowed to move on. If this is not happening it's setting a terrible precedent for out future political discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 05:08 AM

I was recently discussing one of the many Johnson promises, and the failings of the media to challenge him. There is a lot of amusement in the press that this 50,000 more nurses includes 18,000 who are already employed. That is a fair point. But no-one raises the fact that currently there are 43,000 unfilled nursing positions. So his grand plan, if it completely fulfils its objectives, aims to leave us still some 11,000 nurses short.

And that is without building a single new hospital, which will presumably require some nurses.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 04:15 AM

No probs, John. Always worth reminding people that the appellation was created by his own peers rather than his enemies as well. I suppose it could be deemed a term of endearment if it wasn't applied to someone who really does think he can get away with lying through his teeth every time he opens his mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 03:59 AM

Sorry Dave, shoulda known that one! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 03:49 AM

When they have nothing left but insults and intimidation you know they fear their cause is lost!
If the polls are correct within a week we will have a brave new world and the lefties can all crawl back under their stones.

But if I call Compo a racist and anti-semite I can provide reams of evidence.
The final report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission should provide a stunning indictment of magic grandad and his party.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/07/powerful-case-jeremy-corbyn-could-anti-semitic-says-former-senior/
It has come to a pretty pass when a senior judge comes out with the above before there is even a hint of a trial.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 02:24 AM

Greased Albino Piglet. Do keep up :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 09:11 PM

That would be an ecumenical matter....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 09:02 PM

If you approve of that shambolic, unprepared, disreputable lying charlatan, I (a) feel sorry for you, (b) suggest that you stop reading the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM

GAP = Greatly Approved Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:30 PM

GAP??

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM

Of course we can trust every word that comes from the GAP and his rabble of wreckers

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 04:03 PM

Security concerns is now the serial liar's doublespeak for shit scared.
Conservative parliamentary candidate for Bolton West & Atherton Chris Green said: "Some activists working for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party are trying to hammer down the door to the market, this is absolutely repugnant behaviour."

That is lefties for you. Nowt but a rabble!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

Bozzer's now bottled it in Bolton. Security concerns is now the serial liar's doublespeak for shit scared.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 02:54 PM

i can't see much glee pfr - seems to me like someone plugging away at their grim , pedantic work of seeing the worst of anything positive and devoid of any hope, wit or joy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 02:10 PM

Evidence Iains.. evidence...

My opinions and suspicions may be absolutely correct,
but without facts I have no case to make to any official bodies..

Hopefully though, others with the same suspicions do have vital evidence and can make an official complaint...

However, lack of evidence never stops tories making up false allegations in the media
about Corbyn and Labour intentions...!!!

But of course, you already know this and gleefully exploit the lies you are tasked to propagate..

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 02:06 PM

who will be in the dance off this week?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 02:05 PM

already happening in our constituency with ex-bnp, ex-ukip now tory candidate mark jenkinson under investigation

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 01:44 PM

I also suspect a tory voting fiddle,
where OAP care home managers take reponsibility for the postal votes
of all their residents...???

So have you reported your suspicions to the electoral commission, or are you simply making pathetic excuses for a likely labour drubbing?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 12:59 PM

Royal mail lost my mum's postal vote application form,
and the replacement didn't arrive until the day after the deadline date...

Applying instead for a proxy vote was too impractical
for our family health and mobility circumstances..

Oh well, one Labour vote will never stop the tories getting back in power,
in our South West constituencies...

But you can bet the tories will drag their unwell elderly relatives out of their death beds to vote...

I also suspect a tory voting fiddle,
where OAP care home managers take reponsibility for the postal votes
of all their residents...???

Ther are a lot of these care homes in Scrumpyshire...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 11:27 AM

Democracy is in decline if we're not vigilant.
Quite right. The lefties have never been able to accept that leave won the referendum. They have been getting up to all sorts of mischief to thwart the majority. How many thousands of squeals have we been subjected to on this forum alone?

But - Chin up!hopefully the polls are correct and Boris can continue the Magnum Opus with a spiffing majority. Having the numbers is far better than relying simply on the dark arts and alchemy. Just look how magic grandad is getting on with his dodgy Russian dossiers

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 10:13 AM

Johnathan Pie rant, as requested.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 10:04 AM

there's a thoroughly splendid rant on facebook by jonathan pie on boris johnson and his total complicity on the tory -shit show- if anyone has the ability to put it on here....? while it is a fair distillation of my feelings for the tories over the last 45 years, i am thinking it is time i tried to adopt a more laid-back attitude . it's better for my health to just laugh at the vermin - or ignore them as much as possible

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 10:04 AM

Alexandra Hall Hall, the British diplomat in charge of explaining Brexit to the US government, Congress and public, has resigned, saying she was no longer prepared to “peddle half-truths on behalf of a government I do not trust”.

Nile Gardiner, director for the Margaret Thatcher Centre for Freedom at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, said: “It is very, very disappointing to see a British diplomat not implementing the official policy of their government.”

Dear God - the "Margaret Thatcher Centre For Freedom" ?????

You couldn't make this shit up..........

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 06:26 AM

Yes fingers crossed!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:46 AM

IpsosMORI: Con: 44% (-) LAB: 32% (+4) LDEM: 13% (-3) BREX: 3% (-)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):
       Labour: 25/1 (20/1)


Looking good for Boris. Fingers crossed!

Is compo in the twilight zone?

https://capx.co/life-after-corbyn-what-next-for-labour/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:34 AM

Can't be easy living with a hard-left pooch...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:31 AM

I know, sad isn't it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:21 AM

I have it on good authority that your dog rogered the postman as he was emptying the box, snatched your postal votes and ate them. Tsk. Better luck next time!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 05:07 AM

Our ultra conservative votes posted!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 03:59 AM

Leaving the wild interpretations aside, the YouGov polpls show that the results are within the margin of error. So the only honest response is that the poll is too close to call.

As with all polls, the figures are weighted to represent as best they can the wider population, rather than the people interviewed. It is not clear whether the weighting is based on the whole population or their prediction of how many will vote. However, looking at the age ranges most were barely weighted at all, but the youth vote was significantly weighted against. It is by no means clear this is a good representation.

People need to look at such things before leaping in with "what the polls show."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 02:22 AM

polling suggests tovarisch Compo had a royal rogering during the debate.
His party has also slipped 2 percentage points in the polls.
Does magic grandad have any more rabbits to pull out of the hat? His last two of the bliar and grey man are driving people wholesale to the tories.
3 cheers for Boris the nemesis of lefties!
Will I be supping champagne or hemlock after the election?
There's many a slip twixt cup and lip!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 02:21 AM

Anyone would think that the sun shines out of corbyn's arse and his shit doesn't stink!! I dislike johnson only slightly less but a less than tory government is unthinkable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 19 - 01:15 AM

One site that will give everyone a good idea of how much BoJo and his band can be trusted. I have put it up before but it is well worth repeating

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 08:48 PM

That was not a kiss!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 08:30 PM

The best hope is that he'll be denied an overall majority, or, at worst, gain a wafer-thin majority. We mustn't give up hope...x

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 07:48 PM

Forget about Brexit. The thought of the Tories winning another five years in power is frightening. That's what the election should really be about.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 04:51 PM

Well the telly "debate" was a bloody travesty. Nick Robinson (arch-Tory, former chairman of the Young Conservatives), allowed Johnson to get away with lie after blustering bullying lie, completely uninterrupted. An honest-to-goodness chair would have pulled him up every time he told an established lie, but he didn't do it even once. Corbyn made his case well but without the passion and spin that seems crucial in these populist times. The BBC, which I've always supported unstintingly, has behaved shambolically during this campaign. A bloody disgrace. As if we need a failure of neutrality when all the press big guns are as far right as they've ever been. Democracy in decline if we're not vigilant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 03:26 PM

Perhaps the gnome should give the complete story concerning Boris:
"Boris Johnson forced to cancel election speech on police advice as protestors mass"
To quote the gnome:"Donuel, as I am sure you are aware, there are lies, truth and many things in between. These include only telling part of the story," A typical lefty, so as I say, not as I do
TSK Tsk!

Bliar blair guilty of agism
Tony Blair takes outrageous swipe at older Brexiteers 'The young have the beating pulse'

This is the same labour pm who initiated privatisation of part of the NHB. A fact magic grandad has conveniently forgotten.
heguardian.com › society › feb › health.politics
(Feb 15, 2006 - Tony Blair today welcomed 11 private healthcare providers into the NHS... companies delivering the first wave of independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs). ... union fears that ISTCs would lead to the privatisation of the NHS)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 03:18 PM

I can barely understand the motives and undercurrents of our own politics. All I can say about UK politics are broad brush remarks and possibilities. Still the remarks here taught me the little I know about you guys over there.

For years all I knew is that we broke up by a Dear George letter;
In the course of human events there comes a time...Its not you...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 01:43 PM

I see the GAP has now cancelled a public appearance for fear of a handful of protesters. Good to see he has courage as well as integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 12:42 PM

See what I mean, Donuel? I think you could well be right it your assessment

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 12:38 PM

"..... not being goaded into pointless arguments with those who simply want to destroy civilised debate."

and his idea of civilised debate is:It's a wonder that any caption generator can get the greased albino piglets incoherent babble right.

IpsosMORI: Con: 44% (-) LAB: 32% (+4) LDEM: 13% (-3) BREX: 3% (-)

Looks like magic grandad is taking a bit of a stumble as we enter the final circuit.
In theatrical circles they may say "break a leg"
I will restrict myself to the meaning of the term on the turf!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 12:03 PM

Donuel, as I am sure you are aware, there are lies, truth and many things in between. These include only telling part of the story, wrapping opinion up as fact and reporting conclusions from just one side of the debate. I have long since decided that anyone involved in such dishonesty is far better ignored. Far be it from me to tell you how to conduct a discussion but I can say that my Mudcat experience has been greatly enhanced by not being goaded into pointless arguments with those who simply want to destroy civilised debate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 11:45 AM

Donuel order order always utilizes sources that can be checked elsewhere. None of the lefties have been able to accuse him of lying. Much as they may wish to.

Labour of course has the damocles of antisemitism hanging over them.
The Jewish Labour Movement’s closing submission to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission has been leaked in full.

The conclusion – based on testimonies of 70 serving and former Labour party officials – damningly says “The Labour Party is no longer a safe space for Jewish people”.

100 additional testimonies from party members say they have suffered or witnessed antisemitism at party events. Labour were desperate to change the final election week’s narrative – this might make that difficult…

Corbynistas were approached this week with anti-Semitic quotes to see if they think the person who said them is fit for office. But there’s a twist! When the Labour activists were told the quotes were said by Boris they said he was unfit for office. Upon being told the truth their squirming is excruciating…
https://order-order.com/2019/12/05/corbynistas-react-think-corbyns-anti-semitism-said-boris/

To this must be added the fact that momentum only tried to register with the electoral commission after being reported by Guido.
Back in Mar 6, 2019 - The Electoral Commission finds Momentum guilty of "multiple breaches", but the group says the fines levied are "disproportionate".(This was for offences committed during the last election in 207)

Slow Learners or what?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 10:29 AM

It's a wonder that any caption generator can get the greased albino piglets incoherent babble right. There is that much umming and ahhing amongst the propaganda and senseless drivel that most people would only be able to translate half of it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 10:13 AM

Make's you wonder if watermelon smiles, piccaninnies, letterboxes etc were all mistakes too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 10:07 AM

While there is no doubt the captioning was a problem, and that went viral, I doubt if it was intentional on the part of C4. It often happens that the captions that are automatically generated get it wrong and then have to be manually corrected. I have seen it many times: one of my favourites was when the presenter said "here are the latest borrowing figures" and the caption came up "Here are the latest boring figures." Mistakes like this happen when you are trying to do this automatically. This is a particularly unfortunate one and C4 corrected it and apologised quickly, but not quite quickly enough to stop those who want to capturing it and making complaints about it (and there may be different people in each group)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 10:05 AM

(order-order.com) utilizes emotionally loaded language
It follows the disinformation campaign protocol known by many.

Still shilling for the russains huh Iains
I expected more desperate measures

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 09:36 AM

Channel 4 have been caught out smearing Boris – by mis-captioning his speech from yesterday and replacing the word ‘talent’ for ‘colour’. Is it any wonder the Tories are waging war with the propagandists…

Boris, speaking in Derbyshire, said he was “in favour of having people of talent come to this country”, however when Channel 4 uploaded the clip they claimed he said “people of colour” – listen for yourself above.

Boris uses the quote so often it could be considered his catchphrase (for example in this BBC interview), yet Channel 4 took it upon themselves to mislead thousands.


https://order-order.com/2019/12/06/channel-4-smears-boris-false-quote/

Very dishonest these lefties!
and for those that deliberately mishear the clip:
6 Dec 2019, 11:55 Updated:
FAKE NEWS Channel 4 forced to issue grovelling apology after subtitle error sparks Boris Johnson racism smears

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 08:11 AM

Thank you DMcG. I realize changing minds is not the point, but over here there are intelligent people who decide to 'go along to get along' and become like vampires, once bitten they are all in.

They become willing to knowingly lie about what they know to be false.
I thought perhaps Russain interference and murder was enough for a few to become extra weary and wary. Here. Trump fatigue has become Trump trauma.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 07:57 AM

That does not alter the argument. If it makes you happier, restrict it to those cases where it is the airline's choice. Then apply the argument there.

I should warn you I used to work for the Economic Regulation Group of the UK Civil Aviation Authority - this is not entirely off the top of my head.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 07:50 AM

But the refunds required means the point at which it is economic to cancel the plane changes,
In the vast majority of cases the reason the plane is not flying is outside the control of the airline. In aviation especially, safety over rides economic concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 07:29 AM

I am more than curious if anyone of you have done a 180 or changed their minds since the original Brexit vote??

Or even been nudged right or left??

That's a perfectly fair question. Donuel, but I can only answer for myself. I certainly haven't 180-ed. I doubt very many people do on any topic, but as you say it can happen. Those who do tend to be true zealots for whatever they have switched to, on the few occasions I have met them.

Have I moved further left? To some extent. I have voted for Conservatives in the past on a few occasions. Two that spring to mind: the local Tory MP was hard working and very involved in the local community. He really did his best to work for the constituency and I think that important. So I was happy to let him continue that in the next election. On another occasion I voted against my ward's Labour MP and for the person I thought most likely to defeat him (who was a fairly moderate tory). That MP was a rubber stamp: He voted on party lines 100% of the time and showed not one glimmer of independent thought. That is not how I think a constituency should be represented.

So imagine I was in that position today. Would I have voted for them? Most likely not. Not that my views of them would differ, but that the issue at stake is too great. And I am not just talking Brexit: I mean things like what is becoming known as the 'page 48' issue where the Conservatives appear to be trying to centralise all power in the Executive's hands, weakening Parliament, the courts, the Lords …

Am I far left? Definitely not by European wide standards I am very moderate. While nowhere is perfect, of course, I reckon the Scandinavian countries tend to do things a lot better than we do.

In so far as I am Tory, I am a one nation Tory. By which I mean when deciding whether to do something - support a factory for example - you look at the factory, and the businesses around it, and the impact on costs to the country of people becoming unemployed and so on, and assess the impact on the whole of the UK when making your decision. I contrast this with a mode of thought that asks if that factory is viable in its own right? If not, tough, and we will not think about any consequences for the rest of the country.


I can illustrate this with a discussion I had with Teribus some years back. Someone had mentioned EU airlines have to pay compensation to passengers if it is cancelled and he was strongly against this: it is up to the airline to consider its profitability and cancel or not in line with that. (As it happens, that is how it is done in many parts of the world.)

That is classic free market thinking, not One Nation.

A One Nation Tory says that for destinations apart from holiday makers, almost all the passengers on the plane are businessmen. And they are flying to conferences, to sales presentations, to trade shows and so on. And if they don't show, they are very likely to lose business. The trade show is on the Wednesday: there is no point showing up on the Thursday instead.

So the One Nation Tory says 'how do we share the risk?' And they do so by letting the airlines have a slightly higher fare so it includes a sort of insurance component to cover any refunds that arise. But the refunds required means the point at which it is economic to cancel the plane changes, so they are more likely to fly and these salesmen to get to the trade show and the UK gets more income. That's One Nation thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 06:58 AM

I am more than curious if anyone of you have done a 180 or changed their minds since the original Brexit vote??

Or even been nudged right or left??

In my country I have seen the reigious right do a 180 on the teachings of Jesus by supporting trump might over right.

after 5,000 posts or more has anyone changed their minds over anything?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 06:35 AM

Info on the rats in the sack!
Latest polls:

SavantaComRes: Con: 42% (-1) LAB: 32% (-1) LDEM: 12% (-1) BREX: 3% (-1)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

       Tories: 2/5 (4/9)
       No overall: 9/4 (15/8)
       Labour: 20/1 (20/1)
       Lib Dems: 250/1 (250/1)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 04:19 AM

I decided to sally forth into the Mail Online, the Express and others to see how they are treating the Andew Neil challenge to Mr Johnson. They do mention it, because I suppose they feel they have to, but they seem to have it as low down in the presentation as they can get away with. For example, one thinks a random Question Time audience member pointing out to a Labour panelist that there was a Brexit vote in 2016 is somehow a surprise to him, and so far more newsworthy. Another highlights Fiona Bruce challenging the SNP that the IFS thinks the Scotland might have more austerity if it votes for independence - as if they were not the strongest of supporters of another topic where some people feel that the risk of some austerity is worth it for greater independence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Dec 19 - 06:09 AM

Burger King marketing guy gets a bonus, I suspect!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

I watched the dark satire movie "Death of Stalin" last night..

[going soon from Amazon Prime]

That kinda puts leadership power struggles in perspective...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 07:28 AM

Priti Patel wishes to double the penalties for those who attack the police and emergency services. Strange that abbot minor has not hit the headlines! But Guido is Irish based and not subject to UK injunctions.

Meanwhile back at the ranch:
The Muslim Public Affairs Committee‘s (MPAC) campaigning for Labour has been reported to the Electoral Commission and they have been put on legal notice to answer concerns over its possible breaches of election, election finance and data protection laws.

MPAC will also be reported to the police and Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) if it does not give a satisfactory response to a seven-page legal letter sent on behalf of the new Campaign for Ballot Integrity, chaired by former Labour MP John Woodcock.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 06:29 AM

I think I prefer someone taking a bite at a policeman to those who have taken massive chunks out of the police force.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 19 - 01:49 PM

Mark Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 19 - 12:54 PM

6 October 2018
Dianne Abbott was condemned by police last night for claiming that officers are using a ‘disproportionate level of force’ to arrest young black men.
1 hour ago
- The son of Diane Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary, has been arrested for biting a police officer on Whitehall on Friday.

Does she hoard the household scran for herself only?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Dec 19 - 10:42 AM

Q: How do you know when a Tory is lying?
A: He/she says, “The NHS is not on the table”.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 19 - 08:04 AM

From BBC: "Mr Raab suggested it would not be in the US's interests to hike prices if "you reduce the amount, the volume of purchases".


Utter and complete nonsense, of course. A company is interested in profit, not volume of sales. The whole luxury market exists and keeps its prices high precisely by restricting the volume of sales.   

Some markets run on scarcity pricing, some on the "stock 'em high, sell 'em cheap" principle. When you have a monopoly on something, and people's health can depend on your product, going for scarcity pricing can be tempting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 19 - 04:23 AM

I should say I particularly liked the frame about it being a choice between a party that has not addressed anti-Semitism as quickly and thoroughly as it should, and one that has signed up all those who happily call themselves Nazis, since Farage effectively dropped out of the race.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 19 - 04:18 AM

Brilliant cartoon

In my opinion, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 03:01 PM

Latest polls:

Survation: CON: 42% (+1) LAB: 33% (+3) LDEM: 11% (-4) BREX: 3% (-2)
YouGov: CON: 43% (-) LAB: 34% (+2) LDEM: 13% (-) BREX: 2% (-2)
DeltapollUK: CON: 45% (+2) LAB: 32% (+2) LDEM: 15% (-1) BREX: 3% (-)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

       Tories: 1/2 (2/5)
       No overall: 7/4 (9/4)
       Labour: 20/1 (20/1)
       Lib Dems: 250/1 (250/1)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 07:10 AM

I think that there's a widespread misconception in the country about prison sentences, which makes it look like we've gone soft on crime. Typically, though with plenty of exceptions, a sentence will be spent half in prison and half on licence after release. Sentencing judges clearly have to take this into account so that, as they see it, the perpetrator will spend an appropriate time "behind bars."

In my view the current case represents a tragic mistake. In the vast majority of cases like this one the "early" release works just fine. We have to ask whether cutbacks in the services that assess, supervise and rehabilitate convicted criminals contribute to the mistakes. Considering that the Tories have been in charge for almost a decade, it is vexatious in the extreme for Johnson to try to blame the last Labour government for the terrorist incident. A shocking misjudgement.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 07:05 AM

I am not going to attempt to argue the what the law says - anyone can read it for themselves. But I think it a curious interpretation that minor criminals can be released subject to HDC, but that more serious criminals can be released with no supervision at all. The clause we are discussing can only reasonably mean they cannot be released, or a more thorough supervision than HDC is required if they are released.


I have made my point, you have made yours. It is now up to third parties to decide what they think.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:57 AM

Oh, and that was 400.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:56 AM

But as my links make clear (and the second one is to the legislation) your comment So those imprisoned for 16 years fall into the 'more than four years' exclusion. relates to HDC, it does not prevent 'early release'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:44 AM

It may be that the journalists, and party spokesmen, that you criticise are speaking from a deeper knowledge than your quick scan of some of the law allow

Well, that is always possible, of course. None of us are omniscient. But as far as a link goes, it was to the actual legislation on the government web site.

There are close links between early release and HDC, because it is release under supervision under the leglislation, and HDC is one of the means of supervision.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:31 AM

Sorry, first link didn't work, try:HDC

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:28 AM

DMcG:
You don't give a link to your authority for the last cut and paste, but it appears you may be confusing early release with HDC (Home detention curfew).
The fact that those with sentences over 4 years are not eligible for HDC (details >Here) they may still be eligible for early release:
Section 14: Definition of “requisite custodial period”
197.
Section 14 inserts a definition of “requisite custodial period” into the interpretation provision in Chapter 6 of Part 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. “Requisite custodial period” has different meanings for different sentences. For the purposes of a standard determinate sentence (covered by section 243A and 244), the ‘requisite custodial period’ ends at the half-way point; for the purposes of an extended determinate sentence (imposed under section 226A or 226B) it ends at the two-thirds point of the custodial term, or the half-way point of the custodial term for extended sentences imposed under the previous regime (under section 227 or 228) From Here

It may be that the journalists, and party spokesmen, that you criticise are speaking from a deeper knowledge than your quick scan of some of the law allows.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 06:24 AM

More from car crash Corbyn


https://order-order.com/2019/12/02/jeremy-corbyn-expelled-labour-party/

within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of Corbyn
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear’d and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour’d thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell Corbyn!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 04:39 AM

Every time Corbyn opens his mouth he harms his party. We valiant Brexiteers merely sit on the sidelines and applaud his antics.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 04:27 AM

True, Backwoodman, but I find it occasionally useful when chatting to an ordinary voter or canvasser to refer to the actual document.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 03:48 AM

Oh come on DMcG, you know the mantra of the present Tory government, led by Dom & Dumber, as well as any of us - “Never let the truth get in the way of a Corbyn-bashing opportunity”.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 03:37 AM

I have just been reading the actual legislation for Early Release of Prisoners, rather than what a journalist or party spokesman may think:
Here is section 7.13 of the memorandum, which is saying people who should be excluded from the legislation for early release.
=====
Statutory exclusions apply, including all registered sex offenders, those convicted of a violent or sexual offence and serving an extended determinate sentence, and offenders who have ever been recalled to prison for failing to comply with the HDC curfew conditions. Those sentenced to imprisonment for four years or more are statutorily excluded from the scheme. Some offenders may be statutorily eligible to be considered for HDC but are, as a matter of policy, presumed unsuitable for the scheme in the absence of exceptional circumstances. Offenders presumed unsuitable for release on HDC include those serving a sentence for terrorism offences, cruelty to children and homicide.
===
So those imprisoned for 16 years fall into the 'more than four years' exclusion. Then there is 'Offenders presumed unsuitable … include …. terrorism offences.'
So no, there was no 'automatic release' for the London Bridge attacker.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 04:54 PM

I think you’d find we’d both be right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 03:56 PM

I'd agree with you but then we'd all be wrong!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 03:51 PM

An excellent piece today on FB from Attila The Stockbroker, which I’m C&P-ing below.

”Had a long and fascinating conversation with Ed Miliband last night about press and media bias against the Labour Party and his experience of it, which obviously took a hell of a lot out of him at the time. The disgusting, yes, antisemitic slurs against his father, the endless seeking out of unfavourable photo shots, just one chapter in an endless campaign of vilification and abuse against the Left. Foot's donkey jacket, Kinnock's bald head, the sneers, the personal taunts...

The contemptible individuals who write this stuff are a disgrace to the journalistic profession: they are the brown-nosing hirelings of billionaires and should have no place in a civilised society. The only Labour leader since my adulthood to have escaped the disgusting demolition of the right wing press is Blair, and he flew to Australia and prostrated himself before Rupert Murdoch to achieve it. That is not a democratic process, and in terms of the media, this country is not a democracy.

Everything is skewed in favour of the Tories since, obviously, rich media barons want to protect their wealth, and the most disgusting and hypocritical aspect of all this is that these proprietors feel entitled to be as biased as they like while vilifying public service broadcasters whom they accuse of favouring the Left.

It shouldn't matter whether a media outlet is privately or publicly owned: they are all supposed to be providing a public service and should be accountable as such. And no outlets should be owned by wealthy individuals, but should be shareholders' co-operatives like the newspaper I am proud to write for.

Across the board, and especially at election times, there needs to be a media watchdog with the teeth of a thousand Siberian tigers enforcing impartiality, fairness and the eradication of what is so laughably called 'fake news.' That doesn't mean that outlets should not be biased towards one side of the other. It does mean that, by law, there should be equal media representation of the ideas of Right and Left.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 03:20 PM

Who knows perhaps they will be honouring Mosley next. THE FASCISTLEADER AND PROBABLY THE LAST LABOUR MP WHO WAS AN ANTI SEMITE

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 02:59 PM

Funny how the Tories’ only tactic for the past few years is to hurl around accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ in the LP, yet Theresa May seems to have been perfectly happy about unveiling a statue to a ‘virulent anti-semite’. Boris Johnson also seemed very happy to visit the statue.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 12:50 PM

Five lies Johnson told on the Marr programme this morning.

He’s an absolute disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

The full transcript of Johnson, on the Marr programme this morning, trying to blame Labour in general, and Jeremy Corbyn in particular, for the Terrorist attack on London Bridge on Friday.

I cannot recall a more nauseating piece of reading in my entire adult life. What a disgusting, lying piece of excrement Johnson is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 19 - 07:09 PM

That last post of mine was mashed and prematurely posted before I'd reviewed it, then I got waylaid by issues beyond. Sorry about that. Please ignore!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Nov 19 - 04:13 PM

Quite an interesting leaflet of my ERG supporting Tory MP today: it didnt mention Brexit at all. The only mention of a Labour wanting a further referendum was, and I quote, "to break up Britain.' Even that was in the smallest font on the leaflet, though "SNP to back Labour government only with Scottish independence vote" was much larger and prominent (though still on the back
page).

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 08:46 PM

These Tories simply can't help themselves. Well, I suppose thst the Bullingdon Clud A remark by a Conservative general election candidate about a Sikh politician's turban is being treated by police as a "hate incident".
Philip Dunne, who is seeking to return as MP for Ludlow, Shropshire, said Labour rival Kuldip Sahota was "talking through his turban" during hustings in Church Stretton on Wednesday.
"It's disrespectful and ridiculing my faith. I'm pleased the police are investigating it as a hate incident," said Mr Sahota.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 08:14 PM

Watched the mostly-heat-little-light debate this evening. That big gangling brexit git is just risible, and the Tories sent a robot. Caroline was impressive, as was Nicola. But my hero was Rebecca Long-Bailey. A star in the making. And begod, she smiles. A Manchester girl (supports Man U, unfortunately, but hey ho), whose dad, like my grandad, worked in Salford docks. A proper northern leftie. Tekkit from me, she's the next Labour leader or I'll eat my hat! Great night for the women!   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM

Someone I know commented that when you see Bozza and his old man together you can easily figure out how to spell Pinocchio. There are two "C"s

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:17 PM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:11 PM

Little pfr is deeply offended that you should associate cocks with that family...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

So The Craven Cowardly Blond Buffoon sent his Pater to stick up for him on breakfast TV this morning. And the Old Block the Chip came off was true to family-form - when it was suggested that a lot of people were comparing Johnson Jr. to Pinocchio, Pater remarked that the majority of British people were so illiterate that they wouldn’t even be able to spell ‘Pinocchio’.

An arrogant cock who begat an arrogant cock.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 12:58 PM

Of course the landowner benefits hugely from tree planting.
Successful applicants will get paid up to £6,800 per hectare (ha) if they are using this item to create new woodland.
Subject to eligibility, a supporting maintenance grant of £200 per hectare for 10 years may also be available.
A much better business model than upland sheep farming.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 11:28 AM

Red oak

Giant redwood (not the Tory "man with no nipples" I hasten to add)

Ash (Sarkar)

Western red cedar

Rhododendron (think about it...)

Thornberry (our Em)

Dawn "Butler" redwood

Chamaecyparis (Shami...geddit?)

Hazel (Blears)

Gwyneth Dunwoody...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 11:01 AM

Has guido sorted out a list of left wing trees that need discrediting and uprooting...
Or are all trees suspect and open for felling until proven sufficiently right wing...

I was reading an article last night that the Cedar might even be too extreme neo n@zi for Texas...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:20 AM

We need trees high up on valley sides where they can absorb the rainfall before it floods the streams and rivers below. I think it would be a good measure of who we should vote for it we gave each candidate a couple of saplings and a shovel. Then send them up a Yorkshire or Cumbrian hill to plant trees. Whoever does best after the trees are established wins :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 10:04 AM

I can't remember the details, but in the last couple of years it was reported that one nation [African ?]
declared a national tree planting day when every citizen joined in...

That's the sort of mass scale celebration event that could feasably be organized
once a year...

Perhaps even guido worshippers could be encouraged to quit being so malicious for just one day,
and take part in such a happy event to help save the planet by planting trees...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 09:52 AM

Labour staff are getting a P45 for Christmas:

Labour is facing huge cutbacks, to “way smaller” levels than before the election. Guido understands the party’s headcount is being cut from 700 to 300 staff members, with whole departments being shut down, including the party’s 100 person strong call centre.

That’s the trouble with socialists, they eventually run out of other people’s money…

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 06:19 AM

Re the tree planting thing the same idea is being mentioned on FB suggesting the numbers are so large that it would be impossible to physically have the time to plant so many trees. However if you look at the numbers as to what is happening now it seems that it is possible.

Labour want to see 300 million trees being planted over their first 5 years in office. This amounts to 60 million per year but it includes what is already being planted by the devolved administrations. Scotland alone planted 22 million trees last year! So that is one of the four UK nations whose population amounts to less than 9% of the total is already planting 36% of what the total annual target is under Labour for their first five years. So Labour's plans for their first administration aren't really that impossible as far as time goes. Surely if Scotland can plant about 4 trees per person every year - then the UK as a whole can plant what would be nearer 1 tree per person per year?? After that for the next five years it would need to be about 140 million per year to get to the 1 billion by 2030 which still only amounts to between 2 and 3 trees per person per year. Then it would reduce to a minimum 100 million per year between 2030 and 2040.

As to the space for the trees well I am sure once they got nearer the planned forestry extent then they could adjust. Though here in Scotland it is not all positive to be fair and where forestry is going to be and how it is done can be an issue as Iains suggests. Here in the Borders the Buccleuch Estate has been accused of pushing smallholders off the land to enable it to be sold for forestry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM

Just wait for reports that the latest YouGov poll shows ‘Boris Johnson easily won the Climate-Change Leaders’ Debate last night’...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 05:21 AM

Intelligent voters know that exaggerated plans in manifestos are a time-honoured thing. Intelligent voters see manifestos as aspirations giving them the general sense of direction the party hopes to follow. Intelligent voters know that circumstances can and do scupper some manifesto dreams. Actual lying comes in the particular details, for example telling us that they are planning an extra 50,000 nurses when they mean 31,000, or 40 new hospitals when they mean six, or that we'll be better off by £500 per annum each when they mean £85. They are outright deliberate lies. It's good that manifestos are scrutinised for costings, but in my opinion the IFS got it wrong yesterday when they excoriated both major parties for their unrealistic costings. No-one with half a brain expects a party to be able to predict even in the biggest ball park what money they'll need over five years. What we want to see is the big picture when it comes to their plans for improving the lot of all of the people of this country, which means, among other things, looking after our NHS, schools, infrastructure and the elderly and disabled and raising taxes to pay for it all from the people and companies who can most afford to pay them. As for planting trees, the trees in my garden plant themselves so bloody quickly (assisted by jays and squirrels) that I can't keep up with controlling them. Now there's a thing. Who needs people to do it! Whoever thinks that planting a tree always requires a chap with a spade and a bit of manure in a sack and a carefully-nurtured nursery-reared sapling clearly doesn't know much about nature.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM

I do have to say, looking at things from a Tory POV, that they are being very sensible keeping The Blond Buffoon away from any kind of debate because, as they are acutely aware, his huffing, puffing, blustering, arm-waving, and talking through his considerably-more-than-ample arse would be very likely to lose them more votes than it would gain them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:53 AM

As its been established beyond peradventure, that both sides are lying their heads off, will either side accept the result?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:49 AM

Labour has announced a plan to plant 2 billion trees over the next 20 years. The BBC describes this as “ambitious”. Guido has been doing some sums.

    This would mean more than 270,000 trees being planted every day for 20 years.
    Assuming a 7-hour working day that is over 600 trees a minute.
    That would require 20,000 people planting trees.
    If each tree requires a planting density of say 10 square metres per tree, that is 10,000 trees per square kilometre, so 27 square kilometres-a-day, that is foresting an area the size of Exeter every day for 20 years.
    After 20 years some 9.5% of the UK land surface would have to been forested.

The surface area of Britain is 209,331,000,00m², given 13% of Britain is already forest, that means Labour’s tree planting would result in nearly 23% of Britain being forest. Roughly 70% of Britain is currently agricultural land and the remaining 7% of the country is urbanised for human habitation. Looks like Labour’s 150,000 homes a year pledge will actually have to be treehouses…

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Nov 19 - 03:31 AM

Daddy Johnson on TV this morning, defending his son’s craven cowardice in refusing to appear on the Channel 4 Climate Change Leaders’ Debate programme, and sending The Little Scottish Viper instead.

Channel 4 declined having TLSV on, and ‘empty-chaired’ The Craven Coward with a block of ice. Good for them!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 04:28 PM

According to paddy power themselve they got things wrong 3 times in 2016 on brexit on leicester city winning the premier league and on trump1.
The 2016 US Election

Following on from a flood of allegations against Donald Trump arising from what he said on a tour bus show years ago, we thought the billionaires’ campaign was over and decided to take action.

A week before the election we paid out Hilary Clinton being the next president of the United States, meaning any customer who backed Hilary got their money early. This $1 million pay-out got a lot of attention and ended up back firing in spectacular fashion.

Trump started the election campaign as massive 100/1 outsider (November 2012-June 2015) but saw his odds freefall to as short as 13/8 (May 2016) at one point but revelations halted his momentum and caused his chances of victory to plummet like the value of sterling, resulting in chunky odds of 9/2 (representing a 18.2 per cent chance of winning, as of October 20).

Throughout this time Paddy Power punters piled into The Donald and availed of some serious chunky prices.

With Hilary backers already paid up the morning of the election was a dark one on the trading floor of Power Tower as the total loss for the US election came to $4.5million.
iains do not count your chickens you mightlose yoir eggs

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

Very true, DMcG!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM

I would not worry too much about that date., BWM. It was at around that time that Corbyn met with "the IRA" and no one has ever let the fact it is so long bother them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 07:37 AM

Just noticed that article refers to comments he made in 1995 - Mea Culpa, Hail Mary Mother of God!

Doesn't change the fact that it tells us a very great deal about the man and his attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 07:27 AM

Johnson now turning his attention away from 'tank-topped bum-boys', 'letter-boxes', and 'picanninies with water-melon smiles', and on to 'ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive, and illegitimate' children of 'uppity and irresponsible' single mothers.

SFA by way of policies (other than the misleading 'Get Brexit Done' mantra he uses to brainwash the feeble-minded), why in the name of all that's holy would any decent, thinking, self-respecting person vote Conservative?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 03:03 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
        Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:10 PM
See 07.41AM.

I do appreciate your attempts to increase my audience. There really is no need though.
Meanwhile the Labour wrecks continue. Not exactly "whisky galore" though,is it? But like the film, Mr Plod will be involved!

Plymouth City Council have reported the odd behaviour of Plymouth Labour Officer Baz Ahmed to the police and the Electoral Commission after his posting of pictures of postal ballots was reported by Guido. Neighbouring MP Johnny Mercer has also said he will be informing the police.
Full details from Guido, of course!
https://order-order.com/2019/11/27/plymouth-city-council-refer-postal-vote-questions-police-electoral-commission/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM

I think now that some form of partition is becoming inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:17 PM

bwm - interesting read, thanks. but the way things are going is very depressing. for a time where i work (workington) there seems a lot of hostility to labour and a more generalised distrust of anyone taking a more thoughtful, balanced view from the tory media line. easy talk of traitors, remoaners etc readily leads to hostility. we could move - if we could sell the house. what's happened to us - it doesn't feel that long since the opening ceremony to the london olympics but the mood is very different now, and scary

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:10 PM

The irony comment wasn't aimed at you, Al. See 07.41AM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM

Leon Rosselson asking a very valid question here, and giving some equally valid answers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 11:23 AM

Al - well can you come up with a better Labour leader who the right wing media
won't attack and discredit without mercy...???

.. perhaps another Old Etonian running Labour from the inside
as a proxy puppet for the tory establishment...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019 Look
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 11:15 AM

Yes probably I'm missing the irony.


Anyway - if you are more in touch with modern society than i am - we will see soon enough. I hope you are right.

The trot is a lifelong friend. He's been saying it for the last forty years,..... at least.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 10:13 AM

al - 'i can remember one of the trots' becomes 'that's where their heads are at' a couple of lines later.

1. you can remember when exactly?
2. can you confirm it was just one trot you were speaking to?
3. are you sure s/he wasn't exaggerating for supposed comic effect?
4. going from this past to the present what evidence is there that 'trots' are having any major influence in current labour policy?
5. when do you think the tories and their wealthy friends will tire of repeating their old 'reds under the bed' scare tactics?
6. do you think it is possible that they are doing this to distract from the inequalities and chaos caused by the tories and particularly the ERG and chums who now rule since the slightly less extreme members and ministers have left?
7. really, who would you rather trust to run the country relatively fairly and sensibly?

i'm writing as someone who has always been left and a socialist - michael foot, tony benn and the current leadership i can support. i have been a trot before and now believe that we have drifted so far to the right that a major redirection is well overdue. to try and restore some fairness and decency to our country - to restore our public services and save the planet.
we have a leaflet from our tory candidate today - just rubbishing labour and our spending plans. no mention of a single tory policy.

these lies and smears and evasions are not any sort of way to run a party or the country.

i'm despairing at the fact that a sizeable minority of our country have been cheated and manipulated in such a cynical way that they no longer have hope that a better way is possible. they are probably right - we either smash the tories (still a bit trotty!) or we are doomed.

8. as a general thing - would folk rather we went along usa lines or to try and get back to being a mature and properly functioning european state?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 09:25 AM

The effort to brand moderate and sensible policies as far left extremism seems to have taken in an awful lot of people. The link Dave gave a few posts back at 7:11 to a piece from a Norwegian perspective puts it well - here's a quote from it:

Mr Corbyn’s policy-platform, particularly in regard to his domestic policies are largely identical with the Norwegian Labour Party manifesto. Railway nationalisation, partial or full state ownership of key companies or sectors, universal healthcare provisions, state-funded house-building, no tuition fee education, education grants and loans to name but a few, enjoy near universal support among the Norwegian electorate, in fact, they are so mainstream that not even the most right-wing of Norwegian political parties would challenge them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 09:00 AM

All I know about 'trots' is the packet of imodium I just got through...

It seems the only folk I ever hear uttering the words 'communist' 'trots' 'stalinism'.. etc...

.. are right wingers obsessed with the paranoid hysteria they are still living in a 1950s cold war...

I've never been a labour party member,
so stand to be corrected if they all call each other comrade,
while swigging vodka, making molotovs, and singing red army marching songs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 08:38 AM

I can remember one of the trots saying to me, tories and labour....it like a choice between clap and vd. Only communism will sort out this country.
That's where their heads are at.

Still - either you're right, or I am.

We'll soon find out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 08:04 AM

The NHS is not a single object to be sold or not sold. It is a composite that can be sold over time in various ways, such as by extension of patent times which is in the documents, or reducing services in a way that obliges people to go private.

I came across a BMI Healthcare article which starts "Almost two thirds (65%) of people on Britain are not aware that some medical procedures are no longer available to them on the NHS'. (The only reason I don't link to it is that it is is basically a sales pitch for private healthcare.) But there are others: 17 "unnecessary procedures" were dropped by NHS England in June 2018. And so on. If there was some tiny corner tiny corner kept as free at the point of use (and after all, you can make the case that private health insurance is as well) does not mean the rest of the NHS has not been sold.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:59 AM

Iains is trying his best,
but what this thread needs is the highest level of anti-labour bonkers nonsense
that only dear old Keith could bring to us...

He must be so frustrated not to be alive and posting at mudcat right now...

Lifes so unfair like that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM

‘Greased Albino Piglet’ is the name given to him by his fellow Eton pupils. Nothing to do with the left reverting to type’, everything to do with nasty toffs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM

Amazing how some people are so unaware of their own irony, innit! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:44 AM

I agree about God-botherers. What especially stinks about the latest effusions from them is the sheer partiality of their comments. They might as well stand on a soapbox and shout to the world that we should all vote Tory. For a lying, incompetent, misogynistic, homophobic, morally-lax, racist Trump-puppet. They don't deserve the platform they're privileged to have merely by dint of believing in fairies and they certainly shouldn't be abusing it in the way they're currently doing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:41 AM

No problem Steve - so good, it definitely bears reading again!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:41 AM

Continual reference to greased albino piglets shows the left reverting to type. Nothing sensible to say so resort to insults. As pathetic as car crash compo.
It must be past time to send him off to the accompaniment of Red sails in the sunset. His car crash is mutating into a train wreck of epic proportions! Not even Casey Jones could save him now.

https://order-order.com/2019/11/27/corbyns-redacted-negotiation-documents-dont-mention-nhs/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:37 AM

Ah, shit, John, and I'd read it as well! I thought I'd seen some of her sayings somewhere before...Old age, mate! Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:34 AM

Callaghan's election defeat was down to the fact that he made the cardinal error of not calling the election before the winter, when most of us expected he would and should have. Instead, we had rubbish piling up and bodies unburied all in a freezing cold winter (struggled to get my first-born home from the maternity hospital on New Year's Eve through the snow and spent hours shovelling snow out of an old lady's unfelted loft the same evening). Then we had crisis, what crisis (yes, I know...) as he stepped off a plane. Then there were dodgy on-off dealings with the ever-murky, ever-Tory, ever-opportunistic, ever morally-expedient (as they still are). In the NUT we had spent years in the seventies fighting Labour education cuts, massive class sizes and compulsory transfers of teachers. Don't blame working people for losing elections, ever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:27 AM

And God-botherers should keep out of our politics. Religion and politics are an especially toxic mix.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:24 AM

I posted Julia Bard’s piece yesterday, Steve! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

Arrgh, apologies for that unattributed extract: thought I'd hit the preview button but I hadn't. It was from a piece in the London Economic by Julia Bard, who is Jewish. It says precisely what I think so I'll let it speak for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

The right wing press have certainly worked their magic on you, Al. Things have moved so far to the right you see anyone left of Ghengis Khan as a communist.

Try a piece of sensible reporting for a change.

Jeremy Corbyn - A mainstream social democrat

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:08 AM

Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis, who claims without any basis, to speak for British Jews, has attacked the Labour Party yet again. In a deliberate attempt to undermine the Labour Party’s announcements of wide-ranging strategies to support minorities who have suffered so badly under the Tories, and using terminology that has historically been associated with the extreme right, he claims that “a new poison” has taken hold of the party.


This General Election is a two-way fight. To attack Labour is to promote a Tory Party that has formal links with far-right, openly antisemitic, anti-Islamic, anti-Roma and anti-refugee groups and parties in Europe, such as the Polish Law & Justice Party, Victor Orbán in Hungary, the Sweden Democrats and others.

Our own Conservative party is led by a person who unashamedly and unapologetically uses racist and homophobic language. He has referred to black people as “piccanninies with water melon smiles”, to Muslim women as resembling “letter boxes” and “bank robbers”. He has ridiculed gay men as “bum boys in tank tops”. And the Tory Party in government has inflicted untold damage on the lives and futures of members of minority communities through the Hostile Environment and the Windrush scandal.


Mirvis is not a neutral commentator: he is a close friend of the previous Conservative Prime Minister, who he invited for dinner with her husband the night before she took office. Though he claims to be challenging racism, he has never, to my knowledge, joined Jewish anti-racists on demonstrations alongside other vulnerable groups challenging the frightening rise of all forms of racism, including antisemitism, that we have seen over the last few years.

He writes as though Jews are a people apart from everyone else, rather than celebrating our part in the fabric of a wonderfully diverse society, living, working and campaigning alongside and in solidarity with others. Instead of representing the majority of Jews who use and often work in the public services on which we all depend, he throws in his lot with the Tories who have wreaked such destruction on our NHS, our schools, our welfare system and the infrastructure of our country.

He has not been elected by anyone. He represents one branch of religious Judaism – Britain’s 62 Orthodox synagogues. He does not speak for Jews who are more religious or less religious than him, or not religious at all. Many thousands of us are members and supporters of the Labour Party precisely because of its determination to heal the rifts that have been created by an increasingly extreme Conservative Party. Labour’s politics are predicated on the need to encourage, respect and value everyone, and particularly to support black and minority ethnic people, who have to navigate a system that demoralises and undermines them throughout their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 07:02 AM

PFR - the leopard can't change its spots.

The trots see their purpose in life as dicking about and keeping Labour in opposition - so they are unencumbered with the practical considerations.

They have such fun.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 06:49 AM

Oh yes.. the past.. learning from history is one thing,
but over-dwelling on it aint much use
in 2019,
the internet age of political disinformation and ruthlessly more effective divide and rule...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 06:41 AM

Nevertheless some Labour leaders succeeded.

I can remember an old series on TV called The Defenders about a father and son , defence counsel team in America.

E. G. Marshall played the father.

One week he had this argument with his son, who was raging about some flagrant injustice.
EG said - Its no use screaming at the law's injustice. The law is a machine, you must engage with it. Take it on , on its own terms.

I feel the same about these left wing Labour leaders...Foot, Kinnock, and now Corbyn.
They don't engage with politics - they just prat about.

Wilson, Smith, Blair....you could actually smell the tory fear.

You notice - I left out Callaghan. Whose election defeat was almost entirely due to the very people who are Corbyn's mates. Callaghan never got to make a single electioneering speech - they disrupted every single Labour meeting.

They brought in 18 years of tory rule and Mrs Thatcher. I think they will achieve something of the same next month.

Its okay. But the people at the bottom of society suffer under tory rule. Its serious stuff - and if you're taste is for histronic fucking about, rather than the acqisition of power - you have your champion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM

Spot-on, pfr.

And here’s Another Angry Voice’s View on Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis’s own antisemitic position...

”Boris Johnson's supporter Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis absolutely doesn't speak for the entire Jewish community what he tries to influence the outcome of the general election by attacking Jeremy Corbyn, despite the Tories having far more antisemites in their ranks, and two prospective Tory MPs currently suspended for Holocaust denial and spewing anti-Jewish vitriol.

In fact, anyone who tries to make out that Jews are some kind of hive mind who speak with one pro-Tory, anti-Labour voice is being antisemitic themselves, because they're denying voice to huge numbers of Jewish people who favour social justice, public ownership, and investment in our nation's future, over widening inequality, profiteering privatised monopolies, and austerity extremism.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

Al - I'm not a 'Corbynite'.. i don't go in for hero worship
or cult of personality.

The truth is, it doesn't matter who the labour leader is,
what they believe, or what they say...
The tories will use all their wealth, power, mass media,
and international far right network,
to make it impossible for Labour to win...

No matter how many millions needed to finance their dirty tricks campaign...

Jesus Christ himself could come back to lead Labour
and the tory press would dig up / make up dirt on what he got up to in his 20s...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 04:55 AM

Corbyn's main problem is his supporters, who keep telling him he doesn't have any problems apart from the wicked media.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:43 AM

For the same of balance the BBC should now get Owen Jones to interview the greased albino piglet :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:39 AM

Henceforth Compo will be known as car crash Corbyn, the man who would be pm, to be consigned to te dustbin of history..

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 01:12 AM

Mirvis, Neil, no surprises...
..and even worse to be expected as deperate tory dirty tricks intensify.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM

i thought Corbyn dealt wth a hostile aggressive interviewer very well

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:42 PM

”Neil is so rabid and so extreme, and so hopelessly biased that I cannot comprehend my a supposedly reputable broadcaster aiming for balance would employ him.”

Why do you assume that the BBC is a ‘reputable broadcaster aiming for balance’, when all the evidence is that they are the Official Mouthpiece of the Conservative Party?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:34 PM

Neil is so rabid and so extreme, and so hopelessly biased that I cannot comprehend my a supposedly reputable broadcaster aiming for balance would employ him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:20 PM

Well let us see how much dignity compo has post Dec 12th. More like Dignitas I suspect!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:53 PM

Yes he did, David. Dignity retained, unlike Neil, who was positively rabid. And the two posts previous to yours demonstrate beautifully how the public can be deluded by a populist right-wing media puppet who cares nothing for shedding light but everything for trying to trash their adversary at all costs. The interview was totally pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:40 PM

Corbyn dealt with Neil extremely well. I don't think being continually interupted constitutes a car crash by any means. Neil tried to trap him into apologising for something there is no evidence for, and he, reasonably politely, declined.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:28 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Neil's brief was clearly to stop Corbyn from speaking for more than four seconds

Four seconds of not answering the question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:23 PM

What did he expect - the bloke from the next allotment asking about his sprouts?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:18 PM

The car crash was organised. Neil's brief was clearly to stop Corbyn from speaking for more than four seconds. No topic seen as a Tory weakness was allowed. No NHS, no social care, no schools, no social justice. Let's not forget who Neil is. Tory researcher. Tory adviser to Thatcher (he told her to nationalise and deregulate like mad). Murdoch acolyte and editor of the Sunday Times for over ten years. Worked for Sky at its outset, Fox, the Daily Mail and the Barclay brothers. HIV/Aids denier. Climate change denier. The BBC is supposed to be neutral. The fact that it can even begin to consider employing this charlatan is a bloody disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:05 PM

Looks like magic grandad has joined the dementors and will be consigned to Azkaban. A far better destination for him than No 10!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 03:10 PM

A quote from a Jewish author on another forum - not sure about giving his identity away, so you’ll just have to take my word for it that this quote is absolutely verbatim...

”Has the Chief Rabbi expressed concern over Boris Johnson's time as editor of the Spectator, when he was editing the raving antisemite Taki? Has he commented on Johnson's silence over Rees-Mogg's antisemitic jibes (calling Letwin one of the 'illuminati', and using the Soros slur) ,retweeting a tweet from the Alternative für Deutschland, , hanging out with the far-right Traditional Britain Group? Or Johnson's congratulations of the election of Orban in Hungary - someone who again uses the Soros trope in order to flag up hostility to Jews?”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 02:59 PM

Neil takes no prisoners.
Absolute car crash of interview.
Predictable....but I can see no way back from that.

We'll have to see what he does to Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM

" Signed a petition to have the Charity Commission remove charitable status from the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism"

That sounds nasty doesn't it? But you can"t always judge organisations by their name.
The priority of that one is trying to shut down criticism of Israel, and in a Sky News interview a spokesman advocated "weaponising" antisemitism as the way to get rid of Corbyn from public life.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 01:54 PM

It's tory supporting puffed up spiteful little pricks like Mirvis
who could almost put me off proudly identifying with my own Jewish DNA family roots...

He must surely know how much he contributes towards stirring up anti Jewish resentment,
in our worsening divisive polarised political milieu...

What a nasty little man...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM

WE do check for ourselves...

That's why we can see through the hostile strategic attacks on Labour...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 12:55 PM

Hardly smears! Irrefutable facts!
Check for yourself.


https://order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Mainstream-AS-release-final.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM

Well anyway, I guess it’s fair to say that what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 09:31 AM

Such a shame that the Liar-in-Chief and his bunch have so little to offer in the way of policies that they feel the need to resort to smears.

But, when smears are all you have, I guess needs must...

.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

Magic grandad one hour late for school today. I guess he did not want the photo opportunity below. The truth hurts!


https://order-order.com/2019/11/26/labour-empty-chair-corbyn/

Guido on the ball, as usual!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 08:11 AM

‘Ephesians Mir is’??

WTAF.? Bloody sodding predictive text? EPHRAIM MIRVIS!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM

And a response by Julia Bard, well worth reading, and making far more sense than Ephesians Mir is’ s nonsense...

”Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis, who claims without any basis, to speak for British Jews, has attacked the Labour Party yet again. Using terminology that has historically been associated with extreme right-wing politics, he claims that "a new poison" has taken hold of the party.
This General Election is a two-way fight. To attack Labour is to promote a Tory Party that has formal links with far right, openly antisemitic, anti-Islamic, anti-Roma and anti-refugee groups and parties in Europe, such as the Polish Law & Justice Party, Victor Orbán in Hungary, the Sweden Democrats and others.
Our own Conservative party is led by a person who unashamedly and unapologetically uses racist and homophobic language. He has referred to black people as "piccanninies with water melon smiles", to Muslim women as resembling "letter boxes" and "bank robbers". He has ridiculed gay men as "bum boys in tank tops". And the Tory Party in government has inflicted untold suffering through the Hostile Environment and the Windrush scandal.
Mirvis is not a neutral commentator: he is a close friend of the previous Conservative Prime Minister, who he invited for dinner with her husband the night before she took office.
He has not been elected by anyone. He represents one branch of religious Judaism. He does not speak for Jews who are more religious, less religious or not religious at all. Rabbis are supposed to be teachers and moral leaders. This one seems to have gone badly astray.“

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:59 AM

Apart from that Labour must emphasise how they are going to right the wrongs of the last ten years. Plenty of meat on that bone...

Here is a starter for 10!
Britain’s Chief Rabbi has taken the unprecedented step of describing Corbyn as not fit for high office.
Naturally, Corbynites have responded by calling Mirvis a supporter of Netanyahu, a Boris supporting Tory and a Mossad agent. Even worse, they accuse the chief Rabbi of being “a Zionist”!
and

The largest single donor to Milani’s ‘Make History and Banish Boris Johnson’ GoFundMe page is a woman by the name of Hilary Wise. Readers may remember Wise, who has donated hundreds of pounds to Milani, as the activist who ranted on stage at Labour conference about anti-Semitism claims being smears orchestrated by the Israeli embassy:

Wise has also:

    Signed a petition to expel Labour Friends of Israel from the party
    Signed a petition to disaffiliate the Jewish Labour Movement from      the party
    Signed a petition to have the Charity Commission remove charitable status from the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism
    Claimed Israel releases hyenas in the Jordan Valley to attack Palestinian communities

Milani keeps trying to say he is a reformed character and has moved past his 9/11 truther, pro-armed struggle, anti-Jewish antics.
Will he return the donations?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:58 AM

Labour is currently unveiling a number of proposed measures in its "race and faith manifesto", including:

    Changing the law to include attacks on places of worship as a specific aggravated offence

    Working with social media firms to combat the rise of anti-Semitism online

    An independent review into the threat of far-right extremism and how to tackle it*

    Reviewing the national curriculum to ensure it teaches about racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia and black history, and to continue education about the Holocaust

    Ensuring coroners services meet the needs of faith communities, with "out of hours" services to ensure quick burials when required, allowing some Jewish and Muslim families to bury loved ones in accordance with their religious practice



*Note the absence of an independent review into the threat of far-left extremism and how to tackle it........any guesses as to why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:57 AM

Noam Chomsky’s opinion of the Tories’ ‘Anti-semitism’ smear campaigns.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:49 AM

And 300

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:48 AM

On the subject of ‘50,000 extra nurses’, here’s HIGNFY’s view on it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:33 AM

And I hate to say it, but I have a feeling that the great British public aren't as interested in antisemitism as some of Corbyn's detractors would like to believe. Anyway, Labour should continue to go high. Obviously, the biggest potential Tory weakness is the obnoxious character of their leader and that needs to be a focus. Apart from that Labour must emphasise how they are going to right the wrongs of the last ten years. Plenty of meat on that bone...

Barefaced lie about "50,000 nurses" duly noted...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM

Call him a backwoodsman if you wish, Steve! FWIW, I wear the epithet, ‘Backwoodsman’, as a Badge of Honour after one of the vilest, nastiest people ever to infect this forum used it in a failed attempt to insult and provoke me. I actually live in a very nice, very civilised part of the country!

In the meantime, and back to the real issues of the election, here’s Emily Maitlis speaking the truth about the ‘Get Brexit Done’ horse-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:13 AM

I am not sure if the Conservatives will find this a helpful intervention by the Rabbi and the Archbishop. Their core strategy is to keep an intense focus on Brexit and this diverts attention away from it. If that is not enough the Muslim community has used to comment on the Tories' weakness on Islamophobia. Then some, like Lord Dobbs, are saying that the Rabbi has gone too far. It all distracts from the only thing Johnson's team really want to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 06:50 AM

I note that the hallowed chief rabbi is opposed to women rabbis and same-sex marriage. Do you mind if I call him a backwoodsman, Backwoodsman? :-) He's also a big mate of Welby. Funny, innit, that Justin came out with his anti-Corbyn nonsense just after the chief rabbi came out with his. The phone lines must've been buzzing yesterday... These men of the cloth need to wrap the cloth round their bloody mouths during election campaigns, in m'humble.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 06:40 AM

There is something very unpleasant going on here when people of religion appear to be ganging up in a very partial way during an election campaign against the one party that is actually being seen to be tackling a discrimination problem within its ranks.


Magic grandad is a thoroughly nasty piece of work unsuited to high office. He leads a party undergoing an official enquiry into antisemitism,
He encourages candidates such as:
Labour’s Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner candidate Peymana Assad is in hot water after social media posts surfaced of her saying she would “100% take up arms against the [Afghan] government and its allies” which at the time included the US and the UK. Now Jewish people are questioning an oddly worded tweet from Peymana, which talks about a “10 lost tribes of Israel joke” and a man who “got gassed”.
She has now deleted her Facebook account, you have to wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 06:33 AM

I have mentioned that before, John! Glad it's not just me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM

Is it just my imagination, or has our political arena been turned into something akin to the Final of ‘Strictly Come Dancing’?

My wife was recently offered a good job in Rotterdam but, due to wider-family responsibilities, we decided that it wasn’t feasible at the present time. How I wish now that we’d decided to go for it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:34 AM

It isn't just the far-right chief rabbi. Justin Welby has joined the chorus, as has Julia Neuberger and a senior rabbi in Maidenhead (who has written to all 823 families in his congregation asking them to vote against Labour whatever they do).

There is something very unpleasant going on here when people of religion appear to be ganging up in a very partial way during an election campaign against the one party that is actually being seen to be tackling a discrimination problem within its ranks. There are over half a million of us and the finger of antisemitism has been pointed at fewer than one tenth of one percent of us. I don't think Labour should respond to this by indulging in mudslinging whataboutery, but let me just say that it would be good if these prayerful Tory hypocrites would pause to reflect on the fact that, by dissing Labour (specifically Corbyn, again whom it seems that any smear will do), they are heightening the chances of the country being led by an incompetent serial liar and Trumpist who is at the top of a party riddled with racism and Islamophobia. Attacking the one and not the other in an election campaign is an abuse of their platforms (don't get me started on that...) and it certainly goes against the supposed word of the God they love to invoke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:08 AM

it is not really about whether Corbyn is fit to be leader. It is, given the choice between Corbyn and Johnson, which is better.

in Johnson, we have a man who has resisted all attempts to constrain his power, and has written into his manifesto that he wants to reduce the power of the Lords, the courts and individual citizens to hold him to account, and in many cases move powers from Parliament his personally appointed ministers.

Were I Jewish, I would find that a cause for concern.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 03:52 AM

And a reminder to the disenfranchised and left-behind about who it was that broke this nation...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 03:47 AM

I see the Chief Rabbi - a close personal friend of The Liar-In-Chief, Johnson - has decided to stick his oar in this morning.

Perhaps, instead of getting his knickers in a twist about a few people’s hurt feelings, he should be directing his bile at those who allowed the Grenfell Tower to be clad in highly-inflammable materials, or whose austerity has caused an estimated 120,000 unnecessary deaths during their term in office.

We keep hearing about ‘Russian interference’ in our political processes, but we should be equally concerned about Israeli interference.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 02:57 AM

I think if I was a Tory candidate the last thing I would want to do is try to point out any other parties faults With austerity, trashing of the NHS and a serial liar as leader to name but 3 that party has enough faults of its own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 04:59 PM

Thanks, MacGrath. You are quite right: I admit to a degree of sloppiness when I referred to the vote for Brexit. Of course, there was not actually any such thing: it was a vote for Leave. Referring to it as a vote for Brexit is bringing a whole mass of assumptions into it that have no right to be there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 04:35 PM

The vote in 2016 was on the form of words on the ballot - to leave the EU or not. Nothing about any of the other things peole might have had in their heads that led them to vote either way. Nothing about immigration or single market or customs unions.

Talk about what degree of "hardness" is or is not compatible with "Bexit" is irrelevant. We didn't vote about "Brexit', just on leaving the EU, which is a political structure that has only existed since the Maastricht Treaty, long after we'd been linked into what became the EU. So it's quite right to say that the "softest" departure from the polittical structure of EU, without disturbing Any of the other links we have built up with its members, is perfectly compatible with the referendum result.
...........

If I'd had any difficulty in deciding which way to vote, the promise in the Labour Manifesto to give so long delayed justice to the Chagos Islanders would swing it for me.
If the name doesn't ring a bell, read this summary of the snameful episode. And of its if anything more shameful sequel, lasting till today.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 02:18 PM

the partick thistle manager has just announced he will be signing 20 new players in the january transfer window. great - hope they are loads better than the 20 players we currently have

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 01:22 PM

It seems Johnson has raised the question whether New Zealand is closer to China than Wales. That is be no means as straightforward as you might think. By air it may well be closer. But the most likely common product in which Wales and New Zealand compete is lamb, and that is typically sent by ship, not air. Which means the ships either have to go through the Panama, which is expensive, or round South America, which is expensive and takes a long time. Either puts Wales at a competitive disadvantage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 01:05 PM

No doubt in a few more weeks we will discover what the electorate thinks of all the posturing. But a confused message from labour will simple continue to haemorrhage former supporters to more worthy causes.
The polls are meaningless until we are at the eve of the election,and even then, unless the polls widen, prediction is uncertain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM

I would add that if Johnson is to be trusted (ahem!) Brexit will be 'done' by Jan 31st, 2020. That leaves something like 4years 11 months of other stuff. Brexit is important, certainly, but so is the roughly 98.3% of the rest of the Parliamentary period.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 12:26 PM

No, Baby-Staines, Labour’s policies and ‘positions’ are a matter for Labour. The Tories need to concentrate on their own Rizla-thin manifesto. Writing to Labour demanding to know what their policy is on anything is simply a diversion from the paucity of their own policies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 11:56 AM

It is hardly deflection to ask Labour what their brexit policy is. After all the main driver for the election is the question of brexit.
It seems very reasonable to ask kama sutra corbyn to clarify his many positions on brexit.

below is a link to his new battle wagon, titled The Prime Ditherer
(From Guido, of course)
https://order-order.com/2019/11/25/tories-new-election-poster-unveiled/

With Labour it musr be remembered, when reading their manifesto:

“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.” Thomas Jefferson

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 11:35 AM

Deflection - the standard Tory-weasel tactic.

They’d do far better, and do their voters a far bigger favour, by writing to Johnson asking him to stop putting them in the difficult and embarrassing position of having to defend his shameless, bare-faced lies when they meet members of the public during their campaign.

The Official Conservative Mouthpiece - the BBC - is having to apologise for aiding and abetting him in his non-stop deceit...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-laughing-question-time-video-edited-general-election-a9217141.html?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 11:22 AM

631 Conservative Candidates have today written a letter to their Labour opponent asking them to clarify their own personal positions on crucial issues at the election. An important tactic given Corbyn’s indecision…

The letters ask Labour candidates to outline:

    Their Brexit position
    Whether they’ll also remain neutral during a second referendum
    Whether they want a Scottish Independence referendum

The letter claims their position as Corbyn’s candidate “needs urgent clarification to help local people make their choice”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 12:01 AM

Corbyn's stance on Brexit, explained in pictures, so that Johnson and other feeble-minded people have a chance to understand a grown-up's way of dealing with the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 08:00 AM

The Official Mouthpiece of The Conservative Party - the BBC - at it again, Editing their reporting in an effort to make our National Liar-in-Chief appear to be slightly less of a deceitful Wankpuffin than he actually is.

Time they changed their name to the CPC - Conservative Propaganda Corporation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 07:50 AM

Precisely. That is why it is as compatible as any other interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 05:08 AM

And of course, a soft Brexit is 100% compatible with what the famed 17.4m voted for.

Merely an opinion with jackshit to support it. 17.4m voted for brexit.
It was not soft, hard or covered in chocolate within a fancy wrapper. It was simply brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM

I agree, MacGrath. And it is worth looking at the other outcome as well. Both the EU and Labour understand that the result of a second referendum is not a foregone conclusion: Leave might win. So it is in both their interests to agree the best deal they can in case they have to implement it. The only thing that is ruled out is the hardest of Brexits, but since that is not what Labour would be arguing for, and is not what the EU want, that is not really a limitation.

And of course, a soft Brexit is 100% compatible with what the famed 17.4m voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 08:33 PM

I was pleased to see the Labour manifesto promises to allow the Chagos Islanders to return home.

And I'd be getting back my free TV licence.

And four new bank holidays, one for St George, one for St Patrick, one for St Andrew and one for St David.

Lot of good stuff there in the details.
.............

I think Jo Stimson has blown it completely. What made her performance look even worse was that it came after Nicola Sturgeon's master class.
..............
I am puzzled by the suggestion that the EU would be the least worried by the thought that Jeremy Corbyn would not be campaigning to encourage people to back a deal he had negotiated. All the evidence I've seen is that they would see a referendum outcome for Britain to remain in the EU as far preferable to any deal for its leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 04:54 PM

I begrudge voting for any such low grade leaders I must say!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM

By a very wide margin, the best moment of the programme last night.

A blond, lying buffoon outclassed and schooled by a quietly-spoken, classy woman, young enough to be his daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 04:22 AM

Let's remind you about the post I made on the 21st November:


The EU is "open to" Labour's Brexit policy of renegotiating the Brexit agreement to include a customs union and single market membership, Leo Varadkar has said.

Asked about the Labour manifesto the Irish leader told public broadcaster RTE that the bloc would be "very happy" with sitting down with "whoever is prime minister" and that the opposition's policy would not be a problem.


Emma and others can argue until they are blue in the face - what a fortunate alignment between cliché and stance - that the EU will not try to negotiate a deal unless Corbyn says he would support leave or remain, rather than be avowedly neutral, but she can only do so by ignoring what they have already said.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 03:51 AM

Pretty fair analysis in The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 03:46 AM

I think I must have watched a different program. Magic grandad still cannot say if he is coming or going. His previous supporters can see straight through his policies and are scattering like chaff in the wind to find safety and solace in the Tory party

It is the mark of the man and a measure of his astounding insensitivity or political naivety that he launches his manifesto in Birmingham on the 45th anniversary of the IRA bombing that killed 21 and injured 182 people. He and his cabal have some very dodgy political affiliations and people will not like having their noses rubbed in it by his grandstanding above. Shame on the man!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:15 PM

Gosh, yes, Emma has a message all right. I agree with BWM's analysis. I think that there's the germ of a progressive alliance there between Nicola and Jeremy. They are prowling around each other a bit at present but in the event of a hung parliament, which is the best I can hope for, I think that realpolitik will kick in.

One thing's for sure. Jo Swinson is doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:53 PM

I shouldn't think Newsnight will be better, with Emma Barnet, who I find an exceptionally poor interviewer (sorry: presenter. Newsnight doesn't call them interviewers.)

This is not a matter of agreeing with her or not: I don't agree with Andrew Neil much, but his is a far more capable interviewer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

I’m pretty much with Steve - except that, for me, Nicola Sturgeon was the most impressive, answering every question intelligently and in terms that everyone could understand, with JC a close seecond. Jo Swinson was a car-crash, and Johnson was, as you would expect, all bluster, lies, catch-phrases, wind and piss.

I could have punched the South African-sounding cock who rattled on about ‘anti-semitism’ in his obnoxious face - an obvious plant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:24 PM

Well the Beeb 10 o'clock News remained painfully neutral about it. Maybe Newsnight will be better. Whether you watch it back depends on how valuable you regard the remaining hours of your life to be. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:48 PM

I was out at a choir practice, so did not see it. Is it worth trying to find on some catch up service?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:41 PM

Jeremy did pretty well, I thought, maintaining dignity, sounding well-prepared and able to explain Labour's policies and defend himself against the usual attacks. Even the odd spot of levity (a bit more of that from him would be good). Nicola wasn't closing any doors either. The audience made mincemeat of the shallow Swinson and tore Johnson to pieces. Does it matter? Who knows...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM

Just watched the question time special and remembered why I stopped watching in the first place. They still haven't realised that the Daily Heil plants in the audience are just too obvious.

Still, it was worth it to see Bozo flailing round cluelessly when confronted about lying and the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 09:32 AM

I think the key to that is the term 'valid register', by the way. I suspect he will be the one to decide on the register's validity.   Or to put it another way, to have ultimate control.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 07:35 AM

Apparently Farage is claiming the Brexit party would introduce a “citizens’ initiative”, triggering a referendum if 5 million people sign a valid register calling for a public vote on a particular issue.

What was that about a never ending referendum on Brexit? I am sure remainers can find 5m, and then whoever wins the other side can find 5m, and again, and again ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM

Latest polls:

IpsosMORI: CON: 44% (+3) LAB: 28% (+4) LDEM: 16% (-4) BREX: 3% (-4)
ComRes: CON: 42% (+1) LAB: 31% (-2) LDEM: 15% (+1) BREX: 5% (-)

Survation – Great Grimsby Constituency: CON: 44% (+2) LAB: 31% (-18%) BREX: 17% (+17) LDEM: 4% (+1)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

       Tories: 1/2 (4/9)
       No overall: 7/4 (15/8)
       Labour: 25/1 (25/1)
       Lib Dems: 250/1 (250/1)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:05 AM

The Beattie advertisement is worth thinking about. It was paid for by Mainstream, which is lead by Ian Austin, which claims to be "The campaign against extremism."

But what, supposedly, was the final straw for Beattie? Antisemitism? No. She talks about that, but it was not the final straw. Other racism? No, that's not even mentioned.

So what does Mainstream, in the guise of Beattie, regard as the final straw?

"... getting his allotment hands on my broadband ... he wants to take it away and ruin it."

Is that really the final straw for "The campaign against extremism"? Really? That is what pushed you over the edge?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:46 AM

The Labour manifesto:
The Madness that is Corbyn !

Beattie asks:
Why would anyone vote for Corbyn?
(apart from the unwashed, brainwashed guardian readers)

From Guido(of course!)


https://order-order.com/2019/11/22/beattie-asks-anybody-vote-labour-party/#disqus_thread



The great proof of madness is the disproportion of one's designs to one's means. (even with the abbacus doing the sums!)

Napoleon Bonaparte

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM

Good idea, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 02:12 AM

As whoever has now bought that site, what I would suggest is replacing by a very sparse page saying "This is NOT the Conservative manifesto site. It was created as a reaction to the Conservatives creating a false Labour site, to show how easy it is to spread false information.

The actual Conservative manifesto has not yet been released. When it is, we will link to it from here."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 01:57 AM

Pretty certain the fake ‘Tory Manifesto’ site had nothing to do with the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM

Agreed, Dave, but I'm not sure we need to be doing it. Jeremy wiped out the Tory majority last time by staying calm, putting his policies forward and refusing to partake in dog fights. He knows that the provocation is assertively there, but he refuses to indulge it. Let's stay high!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

Of course its going to blow up and possibly backfire.
People are sick of phishing expeditions that lie cheat and steal.
What some call a dirty trick is the aberration of human consciousness called 'perception is reality' which goes back to our prehistoric roots. If it looks true and is repeated enough people start to believe it is true. Ancient Egyptians come to mind. Add some grand architecture with pictures of a dog's head on a human body and poof you'll see you can fool most people most of the time. The great lie is amazingly durable.

The CIA used this ruse, the US President lives by it and the Russians really love it.

Common sense is seeing past the perception and embracing the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:10 PM

At least that one is funny and blatantly fake, Steve. Well, I found it funny anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:45 PM

Well, I'd rather see us taking the high road. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

Well at least somebody’s taking revenge on the Tories....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:13 PM

It also transpired that the Tories tried to infiltrate the Labour List website by trying to buy advertising space, a move blocked by Labour List.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM

Two staunch Tories in the office today were saying they thought the wizzy website scheme might backfire. It is one thing for opponents to say the Tories are untrustworthy but another to see something that you think is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM

That website is a disgrace. It is blatantly intended to deceive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM

He lied in his teeth yesterday about how much we'd get from his national insurance proposals. He said five hundred, the real benefit would be eighty-five. It seems that blatant and repetitive lying has no consequences any more. That's very depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:27 PM

Tory dirty tricks abound. Relabeled their Twitter account 'Factcheck' and have now created a fake Labour website called https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/ and are paying Google to promote it. I do hope it backfires on them

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM

Quite an important comment reported in the Guardian:

=====
The EU is "open to" Labour's Brexitpolicy of renegotiating the Brexit agreement to include a customs union and single market membership, Leo Varadkar has said.

Asked about the Labour manifesto the Irish leader told public broadcaster RTE that the bloc would be "very happy" with sitting down with "whoever is prime minister" and that the opposition's policy would not be a problem.

======

No doubt that will be reported widely. Who knows, maybe even Guido will mention it
...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM

It seems that there are no depths the Tories refuse to sink to in their Fake Propaganda campaign.

I'm really not interested in their opinions about Labour policies, I want to hear how the Tories themselves are proposing to make the lives of myself, my family, and every other ordinary citizen of the UK, better after 12th December, 2019. I wonder why we're not hearing about that? Could it be that they have Sweet Fuck All to offer?

They really are The Nasty Party. A truly filthy bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM

Wonder what the Greased Albino Piglet and his fellow liars are afraid of?

The only large-circulation newspaper that isn't running wall-to-wall Tory propaganda stories is banned from their 'battle bus'. Makes me wonder exactly what it is they feel they need to hide (other than everything we already know about)?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM

"but in fact his stance is responsible and honest."
Couldn't agree more
He has committed himself to dealing with the result of the referendum by allowing the people to confirm it
He could have just ignored it as the Lib Dems have
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM

Quite right, DMcG. But May's deal does have that backstop... It would be a starting point, but to get rid of the backstop he'd need a customs union.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:28 PM

(meaning he could well be stuck with Johnson's)

I am not sure about that. In order to get a deal done in three months then he has to work from something that exists already. I suspect he would start from May's deal, and negotiate on the Political Declaration section. We know Labour have had discussions in the past, and from the timing this would have been based on May's deal. We also know the EU indicated that some of Labour's proposed changes to the declaration would be acceptable in principle. Since May's deal is closer to what Labour want than Johnson's, I think it unlikely he would want to use Johnson's as the starting point.

The only other option which stands a chance of being agreed in three months takes Norway as a starting point, but that has not had the intense scrutiny that May's deal had, so I don't think it a likely basis.

I agree with all the rest of your comments, though, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:55 PM

Corbyn persistently refused to answer the unreasonable question about whether he would campaign for remain or leave in a second referendum campaign. That looked weak, but in fact his stance is responsible and honest. In the (unlikely) event of his obtaining a working majority, he has promised to negotiate a new deal with the EU. He doesn't know whether the EU will negotiate one at all (meaning he could well be stuck with Johnson's), or would give the process enough time, or whether they will be inclined to negotiate for a much softer brexit than Johnson managed (I suspect that they would, especially if Corbyn asks for a customs union and closer alignment with the single market). The EU could well cut up rough over free movement. All sorts of things. So who knows what a deal would look like? Which is why the question is unreasonable.

And there are faint echoes here of Cameron calling a referendum then campaigning for it to "fail"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM

ONE DOWN - MANY THOUSANDS MORE TO GO -- COMMON SENSE ANFD DECENCY OF COURSE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:09 PM

Former UKIP now Tory candidate Amjad Bashir has been suspended as the party’s candidate in Leeds North East over comments he made as an MEP claiming British Jews return from Israel having been “brainwashed”
From Guido of course!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:18 PM

Yes, it is clear.

But there are those who are determined will not accept that clarity. Hence Johnson's insistence that Corbyn must say he is for leave or remain. He knows there are a lot of people who can be persuaded anything other than one of those is avoidance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:06 PM

I wonder what is so difficult to understand about, “We will give the electorate a choice between the new deal which we will negotiate, and remaining in the EU - whichever they choose, that’s what we will do”.

Seems absolutely unequivocal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:03 PM

i have not seen the debate ,but the labour party stance is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM

I am sure each side will have different views about who won the ITV debate, but it seemed to me Johnson said very little beyond "Get Brexit Done" and "Corbyn can't say if he would campaign for leave or remain." And he shoe-horned these in whatever the question was. When challenged about personal integrity he seemed unable to take on the meaning of 'personal' however often he was redirected to it. And he continually overran in his answers and the chair had a lot of problem stopping him.

As could be anticipated, Corbyn looked weakest when he was trying to explain the party line on Brexit. I am afraid many people people are unable or unwilling to comprehend an answer more complex than 'Leave' or 'Remain'. So having a more subtle stance is always going to look bad, and it did.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 03:28 PM

Backwoodsman:
"This story broke in the Jewish press an entire day ago". Maybe the main newspapers haven't reported it because it is NOT news. The quote is from something Amjad Bashir said in 2014 in the European Parliament, when he was a UKIP MEP.
Perhaps, if this had been brought up during the recent selection process, he would not now be standing as a Conservative. But 'news' it certainly is not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

Funny how the mainstream media scream about ‘Labour Antisemitism’, yet Tory Antisemitism goes unreported .

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:48 AM

Good to see the wee crankie and libdumbs lost their court case to clutter up the airwaves with their election drivel in the Boris-Corbyn head to head debate on ITV.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:24 AM

Vaz has been a running sore for decades in Labour and I for one am glad to see the back of him. He's been mired in all sorts of murky business and has often been found wanting. Don't wanna get sued, or tarnish anyone with darkly unsupported insinuations, but a quick reading of his biography on wiki will sum the bugger up for you. He's one of those politicians who thinks that the Westminster bubble immunises him from criticism. Well he's recently found out that someone has pricked his personal bubble and such immunity ain't the case. He'll whine for a bit and try his best to hand this to the Tories (a disease among the ranks of the Labour disaffected, unfortunately). I wish him a long, happy and silent retirement.

But yes, it's another sideshow that I'm sure a Tory or two will think they can make hay from. Never fear, there are plenty like him in their own ranks. Now let's concentrate on the best interests of this country in this election campaign. Read the Oborne piece, good people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:36 AM

not much of a story though, steve? not compared to some bloke in the midlands leaving the party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:08 AM

Well done yerself, John, for beating me to it by linking to that Oborne piece. Of all the people to take Bozo to pieces! Who'd have thunk it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:07 AM

"Another one bites the dust!"
ANOTHER HOW MANY BITE THE DUST - (TOO MANY TO COUNT)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 03:19 AM

The chairman of Keith Vaz’s Leicester East Constituency Labour Party, Councillor John Thomas has written to Jennie Formby, the party’s General Secretary, cancelling his membership of the Labour Party after 30 years and resigning as the chairman of the Leicester East CLP.
An Extract:
    “This is great disappointment to me, realising that I have spent over 30 years of my life working for a party that I now know that I have nothing in common with. This is not the party I joined, the party for decent working people. I can no longer follow the clown that leads the Labour Party, he is heavily influenced by the Trotskyite Len McCluskey and is now as the Hoki Coki leader, in out, and shake it all about he has turned this great party into a laughing stock.

    Please cancel the direct debit made in favour of your party by me and return all money’s taken by you through Leicester City Council Labour Group to me. I am also shocked that you have chosen a candidate who is a Councillor in Jeremy Corbyn’s Islington CLP to be the Labour Candidate for Leicester East for the next General Election. Where is the democracy in all this? It is a fix and a disgrace.”

Another one bites the dust!(The full story at guido, of course)
It looks like he has taken some of my story lines as well.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:52 AM

Well done, DMcG! It’s so refreshing to see Nigel out-Nigelled! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 01:50 AM

Peter Oborne on Johnson’s lies. As Mark Twain said, “It’s easier to fool people than convince them they’ve been fooled”.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 06:17 PM

As I said, Nigel, I don't that interpretation is solid. The only way I could afford my house was to take out a mortgage. But there was also a lot of money from elsewhere as a deposit. To me, that 'only' referred to the objective (in my case, getting the house.) It did not imply the only funding that went into the house was what I borrowed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:52 PM

I wonder how many times you think Cameron with his ill-starred referendum, May with her strong and stable government and Johnson with his litany of lies have fooled you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

His 'only' seems to be a statement that borrowing is the 'only' way to rebuild the country. That does not seem to support the first half of the bullet point being to Win the battle for credibility over tax and spend. .
Part of the problems currently with the NHS (among others) was the idea that new hospitals could be built by getting the health service to put itself into long term (debt) repayments which should have been the governments responsibility, but were a method of keeping the spending off the budget sheet.
A new Labour government, if we ever get one, could prove to be more fiscally responsible than those which have gone before. But I believe in the basis "Fool me once . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:59 PM

my apologies, Nigel. In responding to Steve I ended up referring to you in the third person. I should not do that.

Perhaps you would want to elaborate on whether you regarded the word 'only' to refer to the means of funding the investments?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:27 PM

I agree Nigel's point seems wide of the mark. Saying you are borrowing to invest in no way prohibits you from using money raised via taxation towards that investment as well. It may be that he is interpreting the word 'only' to apply to the means of funding, rather than it being the achievement of the desired end, but that would need a pretty determinedly wrongheaded approach to understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM

There is nothing clashing in Paul Mason's first point. You can raise money both by raising taxes, or at least not making rash promises to cut taxes, and by borrowing. Interest rates for government borrowing are very low and there is plenty of scope for borrowing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:57 AM

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1195805054588084224

Oh Dear compos losing it!
45% of the toffs will vote Tory.
45% of the blue collars will vote Tory

Voting intent
Conservative 45%
Labour 30$
Compo's theme toon

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:47 AM

Even the very first point of Paul Mason's guide looks wrong:
1. Win the battle for credibility over tax and spend. Explain why borrowing to spend money on long term infrastructure is the only way to rebuild our country.
If borrowing to spend is the way forward, that does not support a call for a regime of tax and spend. He is carefully explaining the fallacy of his own message.

Of course, if he meant that to be two separate messages he could have separated the points out. But it is not clear that that was his intention.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 11:02 AM

Oh dear, It all seems to be going Pete Tong for the fat, loud-mouth Russian collaborator currently posing as our Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 08:34 AM

Wise words from Paul, Steve. We need to make as much as a can of his point about being lied to as often as we can. Here is a reminder of the link I posted earlier

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 05:55 AM

Inspirational stuff from Paul Mason, a brilliant Labour activist, from today's LabourList. He's a good lad is Paul, not least because he went to the same school as me!

I’ve spent three Saturdays on the doors in marginals and, though it’s tough in places, we’re making progress. Every seat is different, but what I’m picking up is that the sheer volume of “undecided” voters is large. The Tories will try to tip these voters over with a campaign of fear and carefully targeted lies in the last ten days of the campaign.

That’s why I’ve pulled together the ten things that I personally keep in mind when I’m canvassing and at the hustings. I hope these tips help…

1. Win the battle for credibility over tax and spend. Explain why borrowing to spend money on long term infrastructure is the only way to rebuild our country.

2. Win the battle for verification over assertion, truth over lies. The entire Tory strategy is to normalise lying and get the broadcasters to accept it. Stop the broadcast until lies are corrected and demand an on air correction.

3. On the doorstep… Listen. Understand where the anger is coming from and tell a different story – of hope about the future of our communities and our country.


4. Relentlessly focus resources on real target seats and wards. Feel-good events won’t win the election but do boost morale of volunteers, so keep them short and interesting. Polls show we’re making progress, which means we have to adjust our targets in real time, unsentimentally, both nationally and within single seats.

5. Accurate voter ID and preparations to get out the vote (GOTV) will be key. Many traditional Tory activists are discouraged from campaigning by the nastiness of their own offer, and the tie up with Nigel Farage. Their campaign looks heavily digital – our strength is in human connections.

6. Be proud to be Labour. We’re a mass party rooted in every community. The Tory strategy is to stigmatise us – it’s not working because our ordinary working class members are our secret weapon.

7. Accept that some voters are already making tactical decisions in response to the Farage-Johnson pact. And there will be more towards the end. Make sure they know that if they lend us their vote to stop a far-right government there will be humility from us in return. If a Green or Lib Dem candidate stands down, say a public thank you and keep saying it.

8. Align the ground war with the air war. Over the last week, it has been about NHS waiting times and free broadband. As a news journalist, I know it takes three to four days for any big news to clarify into people’s minds – don’t move on until the big issues have “landed” on the doorstep.

9. Focus your time online effectively. We have to be our own media, so after campaigning tell everyone in your social media network what’s come up, spread the party’s key messages in your own words – with selfies, videos, posts. One genuine short video to sent to 50 friends is worth five retweets of a Jeremy Corbyn meme – but keep RT-ing as well!

10. Our campaign is focused on a mix of defensive marginals and offensive ones. It’s not just about taking new seats: just like in warfare, the resolute defence of a place where our opponent is wasting huge resources trying to capture can be a route to victory.

Finally, remember the final phase of this campaign will be a frenzy of Tory lies, amplified by the media. The feeling that “We’re being lied to…” is one of the strongest reflexes in working class life going back generations. I think if we can win the battle for credibility and truth now, that’s a great investment for moment the fake news factory goes into overdrive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:42 AM

Anyone know compo's Brexit policy then?
In moving pictures and sound from the BBC yesterday.
linked Courtesy of guido, of course.
https://order-order.com/2019/11/17/corbyn-refuses-five-times-say-whether-hes-leave-remain/

Kinda hard to deny his wriggling boyos! What a joke!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 04:33 AM

O what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:37 AM

You really couldn’t make it up! Wonder how many of the ‘Take Back Control’ bunch will vote for him?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Nov 19 - 03:25 AM

Must be a bit like compo then, sucking up to hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM

Another Johnson Lie.

Wouldn’t you think that, having led a Brexit campaign based on racism and xenophobic propaganda designed to turn the feeble-minded and easily-led against migrants, that he’d have the numbers at his finger-tips? Well of course he has, but the truth doesn’t fit his agenda, so he lies unashamedly.

A disgusting specimen of the worst kind of human being.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 01:31 PM

2 rongs don't make a rite!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 01:23 PM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM

Blair and Brown were honourary Tories - That's what New Labour Was about
Blair sueezed out of war criminality because he wasn't considered a threat to the status quo
Corbyn would have been banged up in the Tower for have the damage Blair did to British Societ
It's will be fascinating to see how Prinny will be lifted off the hook he is now hung on
They are demanding he gives evidence under oath - wonder if he'll plead diplomatic immunity (or just blame his poor upbringing)
A teminder how the GREAT AND THE GOOD LET THEIR HAIR DOWN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM

Blair and Brown were honourary Tories - That's what New Labour Was about
Blair sueezed out of war criminality because he wasn't considered a threat to the status quo
Corbyn would have been banged up in the Tower for have the damage Blair did to British Societ
It's will be fascinating to see how Prinny will be lifted off the hook he is now hung on
They are demanding he gives evidence under oath - wonder if he'll plead diplomatic immunity (or just blame his poor upbringing)
A teminder how the GREAT AND THE GOOD LET THEIR HAIR DOWN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 12:08 PM

”He takes a breath and adds: “The sole aim of Brexit is to enable the super-rich to move their money around the world, avoiding the regulation and taxation that the EU seeks to impose. They get richer, we get poorer.”

Never a truer word, and a very good reason to get rid of Johnson and the Tories in this election.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 11:39 AM

It will be interesting to see if the latest revelations of British atrocities in Iraq ('Britain's Abu Ghraib'), and elsewhere will become an election issue - and how the Tories will inevitably attempt to explain them away, of course
all under Bliar and the Broon I believe. I wonder what comrade corbyn has to say about it?
Obviously not just spellchecker required!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 10:10 AM

Your jaw drops too easy Steve. i'd have it seen to.

You should see the things he got up to with Budgie the Helecopter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 09:48 AM

 But last night we had Prince Andrew telling us that he never saw anything to concern him at Epstein's house.

Possibly true. But whether it would have concerned a police officer or a social worker might have a different answer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 09:32 AM

We're taking bets here whether Prince Eddie the Educated is going to be asked to resign !!
Interesting days
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 09:28 AM

The culture that's developed of those in high places being able to lie blatantly to us and think they can get away with it is getting worrying. We all know about Johnson and Trump, masters of the art. But last night we had Prince Andrew telling us that he never saw anything to concern him at Epstein's house, that he couldn't remember a thing about the girl in the photo and nothing at all ever happened with her, that he only went back to stay with post-jail Epstein at his house (not a posh hotel or the British consulate) for FOUR DAYS just to tell him he was breaking it off... I found the whole thing absolutely jaw-dropping.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 07:24 AM

I have to say Al that this is the first time for a long time I regret not being able to vote in a British Election
Must be going barmy in my old age !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 07:00 AM

It just occurred to me - this election campaign has a certain resemblance to that old TV programme - The Wacky Races!
I leave you to work out who is Dastardly, Muttley and Penelope Pitstop.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 05:31 AM

It will be interesting to see if the latest revelations of British atrocities in Iraq ('Britain's Abu Ghraib'), and elsewhere will become an election issue - and how the Tories will inevitably attempt to explain them away, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 19 - 04:16 AM

From the Observer:

"Jennifer Arcuri: ‘I’ve kept Johnson’s secrets – now he’s cast me aside like a one-night stand’"

I don't about anyone else, but to me that reads "Be careful, I still have your secrets I can use when it suits me."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:14 PM

""tough on foreigners" "
Thought Brexit had sorted that out years ago with its spike in hate crimes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 02:03 PM

Priti Patel, Sajid Javid and Ben Wallace have blocked at the last minute an agreed plan to repatriate 60 children, including some orphans, of UK Isis families in Syria. A safe exit from the country had been organised, flights home arranged and care plans put in place by various councils across the country. This staggering inhumanity for pure political gain has to be exposed. These Tories know that this kind of ploy chimes nicely with the "tough on foreigners" sentiment they wish to encourage. I thought I couldn't get any more disgusted with these scumbags than I already am, but I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 12:07 PM

"perhaps someone would have bribed me..."
The punchline of an old Miners story about a scab recorded by MacColl was "The bosses only buy the best, not sh**" Al :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM

This Sky News piece goes to show how, once the Right-Wing-Extremist bullshit, bollocks, and spin is removed, the truth about Corbyn’s economics is that his ideas and policies are, in fact, mainstream policies, far removed from the Far Left policies his opponents accuse him of.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 10:37 AM

Shit! If I'd have stood for election - perhaps someone would have bribed me.....just in case anyone is in doubt, I am totally corrupt, and very much open to offers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:59 AM

The Tory Party is now under investigation accused of bribing two Brexit Party candidates to stand down - this early in the contest !!!!
Javid and "denied it, your honour"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

First visit by a campaigner (Tory: Royston Smith)

I opened by referencing the report that he had had least interventions in Parliament of any MP and had reacted to the news by saying "Someone has to come bottom of such lists".   

The poor guy then asked if I had any other concerns about Royston. "Well, yes, quite a lot, but I think being the least active MP is quite an important one, don't you agree?"

So we didn't even get round to any policy issues....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 07:36 AM

The above is an article explaining the fact checker BTW. The actual fact checker is linked in the third paragraph of the article as "publish them online" or directly here - https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 05:29 AM

Good resource here

Boris Johnson fact checker

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 04:55 AM

It really is about time the working-class Tories (or ‘Mucky Toffs’ as my dad always called them) woke up...

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-brexit-bus-election-vote-leave-campaign-jeremy-corbyn-a9204591.html?fbclid=Iw

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:51 AM

When I first read that poem, which was when I was back at school, I found it quite confusing. It becomes clearer when you learn Logue was a pacifist and very active in CND. So it is very likely that he felt Labour was not left wing enough: hence the 'deep in my heart/I am a Conservative' couplet.

I am sure he would be far closer to Corbyn than Johnson - but still think Corbyn is not left wing enough.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:42 AM

From the poetry of Christopher Logue


I shall vote Labour
I shall vote Labour because
God votes Labour.
I shall vote Labour to protect
the sacred institution of The Family.
I shall vote Labour because
I am a dog.
I shall vote Labour because
upper-class hoorays annoy me in expensive restaurants.
I shall vote Labour because
I am on a diet.
I shall vote Labour because if I don't
somebody else will:
AND
I shall vote Labour because if one person
does it
everybody will be wanting to do it.
I shall vote Labour because if I do not vote Labour
my balls will drop off.
I shall vote Labour because
there are too few cars on the road.
I shall vote Labour because I am
a hopeless drug addict.
I shall vote Labour because
I failed to be a dollar millionaire aged three.
I shall vote Labour because Labour will build
more maximum security prisons.
I shall vote Labour because I want to shop
in an all-weather precinct stretching from Yeovil to Glasgow.
I shall vote Labour because
the Queen's stamp collection is the best
in the world.
I shall vote Labour because
deep in my heart
I am a Conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:40 AM

Latest polls:

Panelbase: CON: 43% (+3) LAB: 30% (-) LDEM: 15% (-) BREX: 5% (-3)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

       Tories: 8/15 (4/7)(1.53)
       No overall: 7/4 (13/8)(2.75)
       Labour: 20/1 (20/1)(21)
       Lib Dems: 150/1 (150/1)
       Brexit Party: -* (250/1)
If Paddy Power is correct, it is looking GOOD!!!!
Seems the also rans are stumbling at the first fence!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:30 AM

This could be an interesting week. The Labour Manifesto will be issued, but the Conservative one is not expected just yet. That will create a difficult few days for people like Javid who are stressing their fictitious costs of the Labour proposal. Time and again they are likely to be challenged that the figures they quote are for things not in the manifesto, while simultaneously still unable to cost theirs. And if they start saying what they think the actual manifesto will cost, they will again be open to challenge that they are putting more effort into costing the Labour proposals than their own.

I am convinced that this is going to be an election of individual wards. The conventional approach of seeing what Sunderland does (or other early declarer of the ward result) and basing predictions assuming that everywhere is likely to be an unusually poor guide to what actually happens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

I will vote for the labour party

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:20 PM

I think things are getting interesting. The NHS stats that came out yesterday, reflecting pretty accurately nine years of Tory misrule, and the broadband coup today that has wrongfooted the other parties and that is difficult to argue against, could be gamechangers. On top of that, Farage and his motley crew are rapidly imploding on the back of his severe political misjudgements. It's just whether anyone's listening...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 09:59 AM

At the moment the BT share price is down 1%, which is higher than it was on Nov 12 and roughly on trend for the last month. The announcement does not look as if it had a sustained impact. Of course, as with all share prices, that can change.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM

BWM - much as I love you and would never abuse you.

You are not engaging with the point that puzzled me, you are calling me a Daily mail reader - which frankly hurts. And comes nowhere in answering my question.

i really don't think our history, which has as many bloody tyrants as any other country, is the reason why people would risk their lives to get from Austria to here. I REALLY don't get it. And by the look of it - neither do you. Its just never occurred to you.

i will probably vote for he veggie munching little bumhole - but I don't have to agree with him, or like what he's done to the party I have voted for all my life.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

The broadband initiative is a brilliant move.
Snigger, snigger
BT’s share price dropped almost 4% on opening this morning, following Labour’s late-night announcement yesterday that they plan on nationalising parts of BT to provide free full-fibre broadband to every household. They’ve costed it at £20 billion, which, in comparison to the rest of Labour’s manifesto, borders on pocket change…

Doing the media rounds this morning, McDonnell has promised re-nationalising British Telecoms really is the “limit of their ambitions”, however it has been pointed out he said the same thing when announcing he’d nationalise water, energy, rail and the post office…

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:51 AM

Y’know Al, for somebody who has achieved notoriety for playing the victim, and pissing and moaning about other people’s rudeness, you can be a very insulting fucker yourself, can’t you?

I tried to present a case which makes sense and isn’t mired in the racist propaganda of the Brexit Brigade. If you’re so intellectually bereft that you can’t understand the perfectly sound facts and reasons I presented, and feel the need to vent your considerable spleen on me, there’s nothing more I can say, other than that I suggest you find another victim.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:38 AM

National polls will not greatly influence my voting decision.'
Nor do I expect that my voting decision will affect the national result.

That depends where you live, JHW. In my ward, the Conservatives had a majority of 31. The Tory is an ERG member, the defeated Labour man was strongly remain. There was at least one vote on the Brexit dance where speaker had a casting vote, and cast it with the government (which Brexiteers overlook as it does not fit their tale about him.) Had a handful of people voted, or voted differently, that vote and possibly the course of Brexit itself could have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:35 AM

The broadband initiative is a brilliant move.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: JHW
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM

'National polls will not greatly influence my voting decision.'
Nor do I expect that my voting decision will affect the national result.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:19 AM

I would have thought the vietnamese would have a closer cultural ties with france than us.

You're not listening BWM,   to what I'm saying. You're just coming with the dial a remoaner typical response.

I am genuinely puzzled as to why someone would risk their life to come here from Austria - I believe it was in the case of the Vietnamese. The EU generally though. As I believe you keep telling us. We will losing all the brilliant opportunities of employment in the EU for our own citizens, if we were to leave the EU. These people are not just trotting down the road to find another job. They are risking their lives. There must be some logic in it. I realise I won't get it from you.

I don't read any newspaper s these days. I have always driven on the left when it comes to voting - none of the right wing papers have ever disgraced my home.
You thought processes have been got at BWM.. Try to to achieve some independence of mind in your dotage. take a leaf out of jim's book.

here he is every day defending his pitch against the barbarians. try to be more like him. you know it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:50 AM

Taking that a little further, Backwoodsman.

Let us focus on just that section who have for to Calais and still want to get to the UK. why don't they just stop in France?


well, a lot do, as BWM said. Then again as he said, the UK has a history of tolerance. while we have plenty to worry about here with racial attacks we are still a more welcoming country in many respects. For example, France has laws banning the hijab in public. Whatever you may think about that, these migrants have lost home, family, and jobs. Almost all they have left is their sense of identity. And banning the hijab takes even that away from them.

When Belsen-Bergen was freed by the allies there were lots of things sent to their aid: food, clothes, medicine. One day they recieved a large box of lipsticks. The initial response was, in modern terminology WYF? But afterwards some of the people involved said it was the single most important parcel they recieved because it gave the women back a sense of identity" they were women again, not objects.

It does not do to underestimate the importance of the sense of identity; it can outweigh everything else. In some ways, that is the real driving force of Brexit for many people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 02:42 AM

You’ve been reading the Daily Fail and listening to that pair of lying c**ts Farage and Johnson again, Al. You’ve fallen for their nonsense, which is designed to appeal to their audience’s confirmation bias’, a.k.a. ‘Tell them what their prejudices want to hear’.

The truth is that the UK gets fewer asylum applicants than many of the other ‘top’ EU Member-States - fewer than Hungary, Sweden, Italy, France, around the same number as Belgium, Austria, and Switzerland, and considerably fewer than Germany - click the link and scroll down to the table headed ‘Number of First-Time Asylum Applicants’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis

And the answer to your question is, why wouldn’t the minority of migrants who attempt to come to the UK want to come here? Over the past couple of centuries at least, we have been a country that welcomes the weak and disadvantaged, we have stood up and fought tyrants not only for our own freedom but, more importantly, the freedom of other, weaker nations, we have built a successful economy, and we have (for the time being at least) a reasonably decent system of health and social care.

And we speak English - still the standard business-language and Lingua Franca of the whole world.

You like living here - so much so that you want to pull up the drawbridge, isolate us from the world’s biggest trading bloc - our nearest neighbours - and stop ‘them foreigners’ from coming here. Isn’t that what the Brexiteers’ mantra, Cummings’ rabble-rousing slogan ‘Take Back Control’ is all about?

In other words, they see the UK as Safety and Opportunity. Why wouldn’t somebody running from rape, murder, starvation, and other horrors we can only imagine, or even simply economic need, want to come here? And why would any decent, civilised, humane person want to stop them?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:57 PM

What I never understood about the immigration business is this.

Those poor people who died in the container, and those people in camps at Calais - why are they so desperate to get here? To risk their lives!

After all they're out of the danger zone. they're in a country with a better economy that us. by all accounts better health service, better wages, better education system...

What is the attraction of Britain?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:23 PM

And get this. Migration from the EU down by two-thirds. Migration from outside the EU up by 21%. Businesses who depend on EU migrants struggling. The immigration we could control, from outside the EU, is not controlled and it won't be a lot different after brexit. And the nasty smirking arrogant bugger who's spouting her vicious bile about "controlling our borders," Patel, wouldn't even be here at all had "our borders been controlled" when her folks wanted to move here. You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:26 PM

For this reason alone, no decent, responsible, ordinary person should vote for the bunch of A-holes who have put the NHS into this position...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:34 PM

The 'Climate change by Numbers' programme says three mathematicians 'reveal three numbers that tell the story about the past, present and future of the earth's climate."

I have yet to see it, but I am EXTREMELY sceptical that three numbers can reveal any such thing. It would be at best an extremely gross generalisation. Not least because it is numbers: three formulae would still be extremely coarse, but might give some vague chance. But even then, it would probably be curve fitting to data, not explaining data.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:16 PM

"I'll be watching both with interest."
Doubt if Trump the Tweeter and Boris the Braindead will be
One will be changing the locks in preparation for the result of the forthcoming impeachment, the other will be awaiting his master's orders
Both area largely responsible for what is happening to the Planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:44 AM

There are two programs on BBC4 this evening (UK) about climate change. The first at 9 pm is a documentary investigating a data breach at the University of East Anglia in 2009 that suggested scientists had manipulated data to exaggerate evidence of climate change. and the second at 11:20 pm called Climate change by numbers. I'll be watching both with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 08:12 AM

Just a reminder that at the time Climate Change has now become a major international probe - - major flooding in Britain and Venice, Bush Fires in Australia, regular devastating hurricanes............... all the climate change chickens coming home to roost at the same time, The Tories have pulled Britain out of the International Climate Change Discussions on the orders to the White House thug now being investigated for impeachment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:31 AM

Jim if you propose childish arguments backed with childish jibes it would seem eminently sensible to treat you as a child. Serious communication with you is demonstrated to be an impossibility time after time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:25 AM

not long now!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:22 AM

”Facts are very awkward! Little jimmie first said:
Britain has always been ruled by educated apes.

I merely queried his nonsensical statement. The backward man should try to keep up with the narrative. Perhaps the name is very apt?”

Nothing to do with Jim, Baby Staines. You brought up Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown, not Jim - time to take responsibility for your own nonsense, all there in black and white for everyone to see.

And, in true barrack-room lawyer ex-squaddie fashion, you resort once again to insults when you have no case. Pure muppetry, and completely ineffectual - I couldn’t care less about a fool who has nothing but insults in his armoury.

Back to ignoring the ignorant, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:07 AM

"vapourware will reduce."
I doubt it - what politicians promise will always be "like the barber's cat - all wind and piss (as my mam used to say) unless Corbyn breaks the mold
So far, so good
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 10:27 AM


In a very odd way, I'm finding that I can't take any interest in this election campaign

I know what you mean. I think, for me, it is because there is nothing of substance. The Tory wild estimates of Labour spending are clearly fake, but Labour has not yet said what its real commitments are. The Tories are making no end of announcements but all uncosted and almost all without timescales.

Maybe when we actually get manifestos the vapourware will reduce.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM

"Little jimmie first said:"
RThere goes that insecurity again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:01 AM

Facts are very awkward! Little jimmie first said:
Britain has always been ruled by educated apes.

I merely queried his nonsensical statement. The backward man should try to keep up with the narrative. Perhaps the name is very apt?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:14 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:08 AM

Ok. Just this once then :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:05 AM

And, of course, allowing oneself the occasional bit of Nigelism can be very satisfying and liberating. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:01 AM

Sorry Dave! But, as Baby Staines so frequently says on this forum, “Awkward things, facts, aren’t they?”. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:56 AM

Stop that right now, John! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:26 AM

”Britain has always been ruled by educated apes.
Does that include Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown?

more stunning stupidity off little jimmie.”

Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown never ruled the United Kingdom, any more than Heath, Thatcher, Major, Cameron, May, or Johnson did.

HM Queen Elizabeth ll has ruled the UK since 1952, and continues to do so today. I would have expected a Right Wing Extremist - especially one whose indoctrination during his time as a squaddie would, if he’d been paying attention, have educated him appropriately - to know that.

More stunning stupidity off ‘Seaman’ Staines’s stooge.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:25 AM

My dad always called the Daily Express the Daily Liar. I see that it came out as "fun duty" in the paper's website too. I've always regarded it as my duty to have fun. The rest of the Express piece appears to be fake news.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:11 AM

‘Corbyn is coming for your car!’ Labour plots huge cost hikes to cut drivers by 60%

That will be a sure vote catcher in rural constituencies!
"An internal Labour Party report has revealed plans to increase fun duty and company car tax, along with mandatory road pricing and charges to park vehicles at work. Motorway speed limits will also be reduced in order for cars to travel more slowly and pollute less. And all planned road improvements will be scrapped too. But the Tories have warned a tax rise this could hit struggling motorists the hardest. It is now clear that Labour have secret plans to clobber hardworking people with a barrage of tax hikes on their family car, that would leave families with less money in their pockets.

“Labour’s extreme economic policies would be a disaster for drivers.

Tackling climate change is vital but independent experts and even Labour’s own unions say their promises don’t stack up.”

Tim Roache, head of the GMB union, which is Labour’s third-largest funder, also highlighted the policy would result in the “confiscation of petrol cars,” which could put “entire industries and the jobs they produced in peril.”

The madness that is Labour!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 06:06 AM

I see that Sayeeda "why-was-she-ever-a-bloody-Tory" Warsi* is getting increasingly animated about the widespread culture of Islamophobia in the Tory party, rightly so too. Am I alone in detecting the distinct whiff of hypocrisy in the air, considering the concerted onslaught of mostly false accusations against Labour over the last few years?

In a very odd way, I'm finding that I can't take any interest in this election campaign. It could be brexit exhaustion (brexhaustion?) on my part. Maybe I'll warm up a bit as time goes on...

*Along with Dominic Grieve, Justine Greening and Sarah Wollaston...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 05:25 AM

I saw that DMcG. It confirms exactly who is running the right wing and brexit extremists. It should be plastered all over by the remain campaign. A vote for brexit is giving the thumbs up to unelected multi-millionaires to run the country!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:57 AM

I see Arron Banks is telling the Brexit Party to stand down more candidates 'There are 48 hours to save Brexit and save the country from a Corbyn government," Banks said.'


He doesn't sound confident of a huge Tory majority, does he?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:44 AM

Britain has always been ruled by educated apes.
Does that include Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown?

more stunning stupidity off little jimmie.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:21 AM

A highly educated King PASSING HIS EDUCATION ON TO HIS FAMILY
Britain has always been ruled by educated apes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:06 AM

Brtainless Boris - A King's scholar at Eton(awarded for academic excellence) Degree from Oxford.
Braindead corbyn - Privately educated until age 11, then Grammar school(one of the top 50 schools in the country)left with 2AL grade E.
Then Corbyn began a course in Trade Union Studies at North London Polytechnic but left after a year without a degree after a series of arguments with his tutors over the curriculum.

Corbyn an excellent example of the old adage:
You can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink!

Boris supped heartily at the foot of Athena, Compo got lost on the way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:26 AM

Interesting to see the out-in-the-open love affait between Fascist Farage and Brainless Boris
Not sure who going to be 'The Fuehrer' and 'Il Duce' if they get anywhere
PITY CHARLIE ISN'T AROUND TO IMMORTALISE THEM
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:38 AM

Back in the ‘80s, the leader of one of the two major parties was out on the streets, campaigning against the Apartheid regime, and for the rights of black citizens, in South Africa. The leader of the other of the two major parties was out on the streets, burning £20 notes in front of homeless people.

No need to even say which one is which, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

. I expected you to point out that it was not so much destroying the ring as the quest to destroy the ring that impacted his homeland. Still, let's leave this as a Brexit thread than change it into some sort of online book club.

It is obvious you are referring to Corbyn as Gollum as, in the unlikely event he becomes PM, the country will be transformed into an economic wasteland
https://www.ft.com/content/439d7270-cfb8-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f
Their crowning insanity is the wish to nationalize everything from hospital pharmacies to energy suppliers.

But of course to pursue this insanity Labour first has to implement brexit, but display their usual sleight of hand by not making this
clear to the electorate. Such a policy runs counter to EU legislation.
"Under Article 107(I) TFEU, the actions of member states must not distort competition. Interventions by EU member states in the economy can be ruled unlawful if it can be shown that they use state resources, distort competition, distort trade between member states or give enterprises a selective advantage. Article 87(1) TFEU covers “any aid granted by a member state or through state resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods, in so far as it affects trade between member states.”

Competitive tendering dominates EU law with the exception of certain defense related industries.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:39 PM

They do what they do whether we respond or not - but I' take your point
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 05:49 PM

"Stuff a sock in yer gob, eh?"

Why ?

Why, Jim? Because the only reason they keep it up is to stick a finger in your eye, and you keep on encouraging them to do so ad nauseam ..

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 04:12 PM

It's official then. Johnson and Farage are joined at the hip. What a nightmarish creature Brexit has spawned!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:56 PM

"Stuff a sock in yer gob, eh?"
Why ?
Do you dispute any of that - if so, what ?
I get tired of me and my friends being accused of being antisemitic by people who awr happy to use the Jewish People as political clubs
- Bobad it the worst bow Bearded Bruce has done a runner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:53 PM

He isn't worth it, Jim. And the sheer hypocrisy of accusing someone ELSE of having two identities. Bwahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:36 AM

Jesus, Jim - you're completely hopeless, aintcha? Stuff a sock in yer gob, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:43 AM

Bobad
Israel's ploy of describing its policies - ethnic cleansing in particular, as "Jewish" is the direct cause of the sahrp rise in Antisemitism - that is not just confined to The Labour Party but is happening throughout the world
Israel has not only refused to condemn antisemites like Trump and Orban, but is welcoming them as supporters
Your refusal to even comment on that calls into question your own suppoert for the Jewish People and sgests your interest is more politically driven rather than concern for the Jews
HERE
AND HERE
HERE TOO

I don't suppose this interests you but is sure puts your concern for the Jewish People where it belongs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:58 AM

Even though Greg and friends are in denial, Jeremy Corbyn isn't: Jeremy Corbyn admits his Labour Party has an anti-Semitism problem

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:33 AM

From live feeds: Farage says Brexit party will not fight Tories in 317 seats


I may be wrong, but I suspect this may turn out to be the most significant move in the entire campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:07 AM

"Still, let's leave this as a Brexit thread"
Wot - and miss a free trip to Mordor !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:24 AM

As my first post said, Nigel, that was the context that the spokesman intended for the statement. I followed that by saying it was probably not how people thought of Frodo.


I am a bit surprised, Nigel, I admit. I expected you to point out that it was not so much destroying the ring as the quest to destroy the ring that impacted his homeland. Still, let's leave this as a Brexit thread than change it into some sort of online book club.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:16 AM

But possibly worth pointing out, as those who know the books will confirm, in the end Frodo could not bring himself to destroy the Ring. It was Gollum who brought about its end.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 05:27 AM

And for those who know the book, rather than the films, perhaps not a good idea to point out destroying the ring brought devastation on his homeland ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 05:23 AM

Apparently someone in number 10 has referred to Nigel Farage as Frodo Baggins, in the context of him succumbing to the temptation of the ring at the final moments on Mt Doom, and so on the point of failing on the mission he has worked so long for at the last moment.


Unfortunately I suspect more people will think of Frodo as the only guy who could successuly rescue all the world from the ultimate evil. Perhaps not what the 'spokesman' intended.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 05:13 PM

More shit-clearing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:03 PM

I notice my response asking for the claims
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:11 AM to be substantiated has been deleted!

More political moderation?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

So Mossback pray tell why is an official government body holding an enquiry into the allegations.
FYI The Equality and Human Rights Commission is a non-departmental public body in England and Wales, established by the Equality Act 2006 with effect from 1 October 2007. The Commission has responsibility for the promotion and enforcement of equality and non-discrimination laws in England, Scotland and Wales.
When the enquiry completes we will know if the accusations have substance.
Trying to deny the accusations when the official enquiry is in progress is not the action of a sentient being.
You will be trying to tell me a government organisation is staffed by trolls next. Get real!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:20 PM

Amen, Mossy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 02:04 PM

For fuck's sake, gang - not this "antisemitism" wrangle yet again. What is this, Groundhog Day?

You know its bullshit, I know its bullshit, virtually every sentient being with even a grain of intelligence on the planet knows its bullshit.

Troll Central LLC (i.e. Inanes, BooBad and HirsuteBruce) will NEVER ADMIT THAT ITS BULLSHIT.

Give it a rest, already!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:30 PM

Will whover is making these claims please stop using the Jewish People as human shields or right-wing political weapons

OH Dear!
1)The Equality and Human Rights Commission think there is a problem
2) The BBC documentary thinks there is a problem
3) The guardian thinks there is a problem
4)The Telegraph thinks there is a problem
5) The Jewish chronical thinks there is a problem.
6).................
7)Even Lord Blunkett has described his “despair” at the “anti-Semitism and thuggery” in the Labour Party and suggested Jeremy Corbyn is on course for a 1983-style drubbing at the polls.

But the troublemaker from Claire reckons there is not a problem!

It is not much of a contest to see who is the fool.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 01:00 PM

Every single claim of antisemitism has been linked directly to Israel ot its supporters - it is antisemitic by definition to link the actions of the state of Israel to the Jewish people as a whole
The sharp increase in world antisemitsm is directly linked to the fact that, thanks to Israel's efforts it is now impossible to tell the difference between criticism of Israel and persecution of the Jewish People
Will whover is making these claims please stop using the Jewish People as human shields or right-wing political weapons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM

Jonathon Friedland
Israel, Zionism and antisemitism
A leading liberal Zionist in the UK

Whoops
No Jews, no antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM

Lads, lads! You should know better by now :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 11:56 AM

Isreal political interference again, I'm afraid

I think not. It is merely you being a racist that refuses to see what is widely acknowledged to be a problem of Labours' leadership.
Even the Guardian recognises that there is a problem
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/11/bbc-panorama-antisemitism-labour-racism-jeremy-corbyn
Even Panorama created a documentary of anti semitism


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7eEQMyzLeo

The Guardian one day ago: "But the most recent poll found that 87% regard Corbyn as an antisemite, meaning an anti-Jewish racist."
When in a hole it is best to stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 11:28 AM

Jewish Ccronicle's stated policy
Although JC's support of Zionism somewhat decreased after Greenberg's death, it has consistently devoted considerable space to Israel and Zionism.
Under Leopold Greenberg, The JC was hostile to the Reform and Liberal movements in Britain. Over the years, attention shifted from Orthodoxy in Anglo-Jewry to developments in Progressive Judaism, while becoming more critical of the Orthodox position on halakhic issues.
In July 2019, a Jewish Chronicle editorial declared that "We want to see (the current Labour Party leadership) removed from any significant role in public life."

Isreal political interference again, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 11:07 AM

The Jewish Chronicle however Has this to say about Corbyn:
Throughout his career, he has allied with and supported antisemites such as Paul Eisen, Stephen Sizer and Raed Salah. He has described organisations like Hamas, whose founding charter commits it to the extermination of every Jew on the planet, as his “friends”. He has laid a wreath to honour terrorists who have murdered Jews. He has insulted “Zionists” — the word used by antisemites when they mean “Jew” because they think it allows them to get away with it

https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/to-all-our-fellow-british-citizens-1.491812
Magic grandad is a rather nasty piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 10:08 AM

Just in case this was missed

In August 2018, the Jewish News Foreign Editor, who had worked for the paper for six years and been editor on a Jewish news TV channel, took personal leave after describing the paper's coverage of Jeremy Corbyn as "repulsive" in its use of "vicious personal phrases" to "trash" a "dedicated anti-racist". The Foreign Editor said that the paper had an obsession with the Labour Party, leading to "overheated rhetoric", and failed to give a voice to Jews who think differently.[4]
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 08:11 AM

There are some quite happy to go Corbyn-bashing over a few people with hurt feelings and an agenda, but appear unconcerned about the problem of the suppression of reports on Russian donations to the Tory party, or Russian interference in our elections...

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-blocked-report-naming-tory-donors-linked-to-kremlin-2019-11?r=US&IR=T

Copious amounts of ‘Seaman’ Staines’s propaganda does not negate this reality.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 07:36 AM

There are some quite happy to go Tory bashing but appear unable to see the problems in their own backyard. Copious amounts of red ink does not negate this reality.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:13 AM

Happy Birthday - you don't look a day over 99
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 06:07 AM

100!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:45 AM

Richard Ferrer - editor of pro Israeli Jewish News
There goes that link between Antisemitism and the Right Wing Israeli Government again - every accusation confirms where this nonsense of "antisemitism with the Jewish People removed" is coming from
Jim Carroll

Libel lawsuit and criticism
In February 2018, Jewish News lost a libel case brought by Baroness Warsi over allegations that she has sought to excuse the actions of Islamic State terrorists. The article also claimed she had objected to action being taken against British Muslims who murder and rape for the group, which Warsi said was “untrue and offensive”. Jewish News accepted that the article was false: it apologised and was ordered to pay damages of £20,000 and legal costs.[3]

In August 2018, the Jewish News Foreign Editor, who had worked for the paper for six years and been editor on a Jewish news TV channel, took personal leave after describing the paper's coverage of Jeremy Corbyn as "repulsive" in its use of "vicious personal phrases" to "trash" a "dedicated anti-racist". The Foreign Editor said that the paper had an obsession with the Labour Party, leading to "overheated rhetoric", and failed to give a voice to Jews who think differently.[4]

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:27 AM

Labour, You have a problem!
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-antisemitism-corbyn-watson-formby-jewish-ehrc-investigation-a9006466.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 19 - 03:00 AM

The problem with that DMcG is that a lot of people have that same attitude towards foreigners. If Labour switch the focus to that it could win the Tories some votes :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

Fair point, pete. But the reason it is being discussed is that the Tories see it as a major weapon against Labour. Make no mistake (as the other thread would have it), this is not because the Tories are particularly bothered about the Jewish community. Their primary interest is making Labour less attractive to all the well meaning non-Jewish people who rightly think antisemitism is appalling. That there is a Jewish community which has, in large part, voted Labour in the past and may not this time is a welcome bonus, but it is not, in itself, as significant. Those in London, for example, are more likely to switch from Labour to LibDem, not Conservative, especially if they are remainers. This is not about the Conservatives winning votes, just trying to make Labour lose as many as possible.

What you say about the Tory attitude to foreigners is quite right, but it will need Labour or other party to force that into the news against those parts of the media that support the Tories and/or Brexit and are quite happy to keep the focus elsewhere, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 08:18 AM

'writing in the telegraph, david blunkett despairs about the bullying, anti-semitism blah, blah f****g blah.....' as an ordinary labour party member i despair at the way that prominent labour party members take it in turns at election times to offer their support to the tory party by sticking the knife in Labour. despair all you like blunkett, hodge, mandelson or whoever, but is it too much to ask that you despair in the comfort of your own conservative clubs? don't you think of the morale of thousands of party members who are working hard to get rid of the tories and how depressing it is to read your sour grumbling . to the telegraph. for money.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 07:53 AM

i find it amazing that we are discussing, yet again, labour's response to their supposed anti-racism. or even the tories non-attempts to deal with anti-muslims in the party. when the huge elephant in the room is the hostile environment for foreigners which has been tory party policy for about a decade. their disgusting attitude to the windrush generation is an ongoing scandal yet gets very little press coverage these days. official tory party to attack british citizens! we don't even need to start on grenfell....

(i just read (again) about 'corbyn's anti-semitism' and (again) the first piece of evidence wheeled out was him liking a painting 25 years ago. it's clear that with the help of a few anti-labour people this is one piece of shit they threw at corbyn which seems to have stuck. i've never seen or heard anti-semitism in the labour party/trade union meetings i've been to and had any such bigotry come out i am confident it would have been immediately jumped upon by the majority of anti-racists in the room. by the way - i never saw those guys in the picture as jewish - just thought they were caricature greedy capitalists)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 06:55 AM

I know it is banging my head on a wall but would you please stop with the sexism, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 06:37 AM

A manufactured claim would hardly have sufficient grounds for an investigation by an official watchdog. The national front is the only other political organisation to be so investigated. Denial in the face of such compelling evidence seems the hallmark of a ???. As also is trying a spuruious counter argument of whataboutism.

The bookies favourites line up as follows:
PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

    No overall: 10/11 (5/6)
    Tories: 11/10 (6/5)
    Labour: 14/1 (14/1)
    Brexit Party: 150/1 (150/1)
    Lib Dems: 150/1 (150/1)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 06:29 AM

There was a 19% swing to big tits swinson's party in Thursday's Croydon council bye bye election - a good pointer. I know of many tories and labour people who will vote lib dem on Dec12!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 06:26 AM

And following that, in the news today Tory peer rounds on Conservatives criticising Labour over antisemitism for their own failure to tackle Islamophobia

And, also whitesplaining.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM

"Failinng to deal wityh Antisemitism" seems to be a running theme in this election
Shortly after the claim was manufactured Muslim leaders complained to the Press that there was significant anti-Muslim problem in the Tory Party - the Tories have so far refused to address that problem
THIS IS HOW THE TORIES DEAL WITH SUCH CLAIMS

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 05:37 AM

Not sure about that, Sandman. If you look at actual betting shop odds, they think a Tory win most likely. I won't post a link as such, because the figures change all the time, but sites like

https://www.oddschecker.com/insight/politics

can show the current odds. These may or may not align with what pundits reckon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 04:15 AM

no overall majority seems to be favourite odds

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 03:52 AM

In fact, checking a few dates, the fieldwork began before 'Super Saturday' and much of it was before an election was announced. So it is a bit of a mixed bag of intentions: some taken when the PM was still asserting that his deal would get through by 31 Oct without an election and some when it was clear it would not and we were having an election, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Nov 19 - 03:47 AM

A lot of the press is reporting the latest YouGov study of voter intentions. Rather less point out that the 'The fieldwork, conducted from 17 October – 4 November' was before the campaign started. So it is a useful baseline to judge the effectiveness of the campaigns against, but like all polls so long before the actual vote, it needs to be handled with considerable caution.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:04 PM

I do wonder why Johnson needs six weeks to read the report on Russian meddling in our elections when he believed it would only take our MPs forty-eight hours to study and assimilate all the implications of his EU Withdrawal Agreement?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:58 PM

Ignore him. He's not worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:51 PM

OK, lads - all of yis copy this out 100 times:

I promise I will not engage with or respond to Iains' puerile provocation.

Provocation puerile Iains' to respond or with engage not will I promise I.

etc......

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:30 PM

Once again, our Extreme Right-Wing Plant has failed to indicate that his post is a direct quote from his boss...

https://order-order.com/2019/11/08/labour-candidate-poor-less-educated-easier-control/?fbclid=IwAR1m_gggNsCMqFr-qFyx52ivadpjRQpv

Disgusting dishonesty. But then, what else would we expect from the Extreme Right Wing but dishonesty and deceit?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:16 PM

You would not be having a go at Mr Shaw would you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:10 PM

A link to the rest of the post could well be enlightening I suspect.

Someone is WELL known for selective posts and lack of links.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM

Louise Webberley, Labour’s candidate in the Leave-voting seat of Totnes, is not exactly going for outreach approach; sharing material on Facebook saying “lower income, less educated voiceless people are so much easier to control.” Labour came second in the seat in 2017…

Her forthright approach is unlikely to gain her much support.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:56 PM

"but I think Jim you owe Nigel an apology"
I hope we cross-posted Rag - I just have

"he is not supporting Ross England."
Delighted to hear it - he should be demanding that his (The Tory Party) contact the victim and offer their sincere apologies (and maybe some recompense) for that fact that it was one of their leading members who deprived her of her day in court
I have no doubt that, if it was a leading Labour figure guilty of shuch behaviour he would be in the from those demanding that a pillory be set up outside Westminster
It seems fairly obvious that those at the top have been fully aware of these shenanigans for eighteen months e and the only reason they have seen the light of day now is that there is a dodgy election in the offing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM

Ok .......... it is perhaps not my place to interject on this, but I think Jim you owe Nigel an apology.

If you READ his first post he states quite clearly, at least to everyone else, he is not supporting Ross England.

You, in your attack everyone who disagree with me mode, completely disregarded this.

Engage brain before engaging fingers perhaps !

I shall now sit back and wait to be attacked in a similar fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:30 PM

"Try to read, and think, before responding with any more insults."
If I mistook what you said I apologise Nigel
Hw about you commenting on the calibre of MPs like the feller who resigned out your Prime minister who treats women and non-whites like second class citizens - (to ve used and abused -- in that order)
Sorry again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:12 PM

Just looked at your MP's voting history. He's not very nice, is he?

Nope. And he came bottom of a survey by the Independent based on how active they were in terms of interventions, questions submitted, etc.   His response? Someone has to be bottom of such lists.

And when he has responded to emails, he is usually exceptionally patronising.

So all in all, I repeat: Nope.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:08 PM

Just looked at your MP's voting history. He's not very nice, is he?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:37 AM

Here is the result for my ward in 2017

  Royston Smith  - Con   - 21,773 = majority 31
  Simon Letts    - Lab   - 21,742
  Eleanor Bell   - LD    -  1,421
  Kim Rose       - UKIP  -  1,122
  Rosie Pearce   - Green -    725
  

Everything is going to hinge on whether the Brexit Party can take more votes from Conservative than the LibDems can from Labour. So I either want LibDem to do spectacularly well to increase their votes nearly twentyfold - I think we can agree that looks unlikely - or do far worse then the Brexit Party.

National polls will not greatly influence my voting decision.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:05 AM

A huge new YouGov poll of over 11,500 voters shows the Tories leading Labour by 14%, with the Lib Dems only 3% behind Corbyn – a result that, if repeated in the election, could see Boris win a three-figure majority.

The poll also shows the SNP are on course for a big win in Scotland, taking 42% of the vote and all but three of the Tories seats. YouGov also sees the Lib Dems beating Labour in their former Scottish heartlands.

In even more dire reading for Corbyn, YouGov polled personality traits for him and Boris, and found the PM’s likeability is 25% higher than Corbyn’s.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM

Jim:
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:29 AM

"I thought better of you. I have not defended this."
Did you not suggest it might not have been rape ?
You and yours defend the behaviour of these scum-buckets with your silence - you do runners whenever their antics are pointed out

NO! I did not suggest it might not have been rape. I made clear that it was rape, as the defendant had been given a 5 year sentence following a re-trial.

My short post was not that easy to misunderstand, but you have done so twice now. Try to read, and think, before responding with any more insults.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:22 AM

But despite all the plots he is still President and likely to be re elected. Obviously not all share the views expressed on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:17 AM

Yet they keep supporting him. What is going on?

Perhaps the brain-dead reality denying 40% of the U.S. population that still support The Trumpshit would have some insight.......

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:23 AM

Greased Albino Pig, keep up boys.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:24 AM

No idea either what GAP meant, but the free dictionary acronyms has some possibilities

Great American Products
Generally Accepted Practices .. maybe not.
Global Atmospheric Pollution
Grant Awards Program
Gay and Proud .. don't think it's that
Group for Alternative Policies ... perhaps
General Area Plot.

======

But the most odd one seemed to be their claim GAP is an acronym for 'Integrated Taxonomic Information System.' Don't see it, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:22 AM

Just seen on BBC News that The Nicotine-Stained Man-Frog has announced that he can’t even be arsed to come up with an Election Manifesto for the BrexShit so-called ‘Party’.

He really is a lazy c**t, isn’t he? Why would anyone with a working brain vote for him?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM

75% of British Jews supported Labour following WWII.

7% of British Jews support Labour following Corbyn's election.

Let that sink in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM

GAP?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:47 AM

I really don't understand how anyone can believe a single word the GAP we have for PM says. From Turkey joining the EU to the election being forced on him by MPs not backing his plan, the words that run from his mouth like sewage from a drain are complete shite. Yet they keep supporting him. What is going on?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:54 AM

Asked if he would legislate to protect the NHS from US intervention, the PM said: 

We can do free trade deals with countries around the world but under us the NHS is not for sale. It’s not going to be on any kind of international trade negotiation. 
This is pure Loch Ness Monster, Bermuda Triangle stuff. 

The NHS, free at the point of use, is a fantastic service and we not only believe in it, but are investing more in it than at any time in recent memory and we’ll continue to do so.




which is a complicated way of saying no we won't legislate. Whatever we may believe at the moment, at a later date we or someone who comes after us can do what they like.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:49 AM

Not to be outdone by the Tories’ damaging coverage yesterday, Labour has had two candidate crises this morning. And it’s not even 10 am…

First out of the gate was LBC’s exclusive that their Liverpool West Derby candidate – a shoo-in at the election – has made a number of “foul-mouthed” posts against female politicians; including calling for a Tory baroness to be “hit the c*** where it hurts”, and another where he called Esther McVey a “b*****d”. Presumably McDonnell will defend him…

Then over in Clacton, Labour’s candidate, Gideon Bull, has just quit whilst denying she called a Jewish councillor a “shylock” in a council meeting. Bull also follow’s Labour’s Gordon candidate who quit yesterday after comparing Israel to a child abuser.

Full details and comments from the bastion of veracity Guido

https://order-order.com/2019/11/08/corbyns-candidate-crisis-continues-clacton/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:47 AM

"I get sick of hearing from disaffected and militant ex-party members about what they think of their former leader. "
Me too - especially right wing Israel supporters who backed Blair's 'Weapons of Mass Destruction bloodbath (suggest a trip to the current film 'Secret Society' will open a few eyes over that fiasco)

Isn't it interesting how see that the only thing these twots have to say about Corbyn's plan to alleviate the damage done to the less well off ois how much it will cost the taxpayer
Not unlike describing attempts to temporarily house Grenfell Tower survivors as "an attack on property ownership"
You've got to give it to these fellers - they certainly know where their priorities lie
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:41 AM

Could your view be a tad jaundiced by Labour MPs recommending Labour supporters vote for the Tories?
This is quite a departure from the norm, even for labour! Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM

I really must wear my reading glasses

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:14 AM

I get sick of hearing from disaffected and militant ex-party members about what they think of their former leader. I don't want to know what some idiot who's been a Tory all his life thinks of Boris just now, thanks, or what a near-insane ex-Labour man thinks of Jezza (near-insane because no sentient being who has been Labour all his life could even remotely conceivably recommend voting for Johnson). These demented people make for colourful storylines but they merely inject a dose of shallow tabloid sensationalism, worse because the BBC, etc, legitimises them by the way they "adopt a serious approach." I'll make my own mind up from the mainstream campaigning about what I think of the party leaders, not from the bleatings of these idiotic self-marginalisers. You might have thought that the Beeb would learned from the fiasco of "giving an equal platform" to climate-change-denying frauds such as Nigel Lawson.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:12 AM

Meanwhile back in the real world it is all going swimmingly well for compo and his coterie of clowns?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1201591/general-election-jeremy-corbyn-video-labour-manchester-john-mcdonnell-liverpool-brexit
From their electioneering twaddle:
Labour will “borrow to invest” on an unprecedented scale.
Labour will shift the economic balance of power north
Labour’s borrowing will pay for itself

First they have to try a bit of conjuration to make the magic money tree a veritable forest. Good Luck with that one !

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:29 AM

"I thought better of you. I have not defended this."
Did you not suggest it might not have been rape ?
You and yours defend the behaviour of these scum-buckets with your silence - you do runners whenever their antics are pointed out
You present yourself as a Government supporter - you need to say why when you take into consideration the damage thay have already done to Britain

I watched with pleasure last night as the Tory speaker on Question Time was slated by speaker after speaker from the audience - she remained totally silent on everything too
That seems the only way that your Tories are going to win anything
Every time you open your mouths exposes a fresh horror for Britain

I really would think better of you if you actually participated in this discussion - this forum 9and the country) actually needs an honest opinion from a Tory Hman Being - god knows, there aren't ant in Westminster
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:20 AM

bonzo mentioned big tits swindon , is this a religous cult if so can i join, big tits swindon,
wav could you write a poem about big tits swindon

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM

I suppose I need to tie that last post more explicitly to the election. Ok, the cancellation of my wife's operation was explicitly put down to funding problems. I don't like it, of course, but we do recognise that the funding can't be unlimited, so we can tolerate some postponements as long as it is a small proportion of the operations. Last year there was a moratorium on all non-urgent operations, such as hip replacements, because of funding limitations. That is not acceptable. So we need to have increases in funding sufficient to prevent those. We are unlikely to have a repeat this year, but I suspect that is prevented more because the Government does not want that in the news during an election than because of anything else.

Then my nephew's operation. It hardly bears thinking about how much that would cost if we lived in the USA. Even with insurance, it might exceed a limit on cover. Promises that the NHS is not for sale do not impress me, because we have had lots of promises about lots of things that have not come into being. And any promise can be broken if there are financial issues, under the umbrella of 'taking hard decisions'. As a minimum I would want such guarantees to be written into laws so that Parliament would at least have to explicitly vote to overturn them. (And of course the NHS is not a single thing - it is possible to privatise aspects while claiming the NHS as a whole has not been sold.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 01:50 AM

while on this theme, the good and the bad of the NHS. My wife had a hip operation due on 5th December. We were told yesterday that it has been postponed to 6th February because of lack of funds.

But for comparison, a little over two weeks ago my nephew went to his GP with bleeding from his bowel. They have discovered major cancer needing 20 inches of bowel removed, plus 10 lymph nodes and potentially part of his prostate and pancreas. He has a 6-8 hour operation today to remove this section and see what can be done.

So while he may not live through this, or if he does not for very long afterwards, the NHS is doing everything humanly feasible to sort it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:20 PM

As you may have seen on another thread, the better half has just had a major operation. The staff, bar none, were wonderful. But, to concur with Steve, there was just not enough of them. Particularly over the weekend. This is a direct result of Tory cuts and wage caps. They are now making matters worse by trying to rid us of the immigrants that the NHS rely on to run hospitals. Boris continues to lie. As long as the gullible continue to fall for it things will get worse. Labour are the only party that can turn that round.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 06:00 PM

That's a very short poem WAV - rather cryptic.

I'm not good at cryptic - still keep at it, one day you'll come up with The Charge of the Light Brigade.

I'm jealous. I can't do poems.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 05:45 PM

An unscientific snapshot coming up.

I had to take my daughter to the fracture clinic at the Royal Cornwall Hospital this morning. We were seen promptly and were treated with kindness and friendly smiles all round. But the staff, from tbe receptionist to the healthcare assistants to the nurses to the consultant, were clearly overworked. One nurse told us that he had a huge queue of patients to see. The receptionist was, at one point, clearly overwhelmed and couldn't keep up. She was dealing with a ten-deep queue of patients trying to book in and, at the same time, the anxious phone calls from confused patients. I saw two nurses running in the corridor to get from one patient to another, not because of any emergencies but because there were too many patients and not enough of them...

Welcome to Tory Britain. Understaffing, under-investment and a cynical disregard for ordinary people. A&E departments overrun. Operations cancelled wholesale. Waiting lists off the scale. It doesn't affect Tories, of course. They have their queue-jumping contracts...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 04:22 PM

Jim:
" It takes a little searching to confirm that there was actually a rap"
It was the judge who castigated your hero and it was up to the court to decide whatever it was rape - not you
The bastard you are defending stopped a pssible rape victim from the right to put the man she accused on trial
Is that your idea of aa conservative brave new world give Johnson's promises on law and order?
Yours is a scurrilous defense of an evil act
I thought better of you. I have not defended this.
Read what I wrote, not what you wanted to read into it.
The point of this is that, because of the actions of Ross England, the original trial was called off. It was not for me, or the judge, or that court to say whether there was, in truth, a case to be answered.

I was not defending Ross England, but making clear that there has been a re-trial, at which the original defendant was found guilty, and sentenced to 5 years.

If there is anything 'scurrilous' about this, it is your attack on me, when all I was doing was setting the record straight, and confirming that this was NOT a case where I would side with the offender.


Try reading carefully before responding.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:54 PM

" It takes a little searching to confirm that there was actually a rap"
It was the judge who castigated your hero and it was up to the court to decide whatever it was rape - not you
The bastard you are defending stopped a pssible rape victim from the right to put the man she accused on trial
Is that your idea of aa conservative brave new world give Johnson's promises on law and order?
Yours is a scurrilous defense of an evil act
You should be well used to doing that considering the serial behavior of your glorious leader
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:55 PM

For those discussing the rape trial which led to Alan Cairns resigning his position. It takes a little searching to confirm that there was actually a rape. The offender has been jailed for 5 years at a re-trial. details here
I may normally side with the Conservatives, but in this case, the truth needs to be available so that people can make informed comments.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:17 PM

Great start to Labour's electioneering.
The labour second in command has just quit.
Former Labour MP John Woodcock joined Ian Austin in calling on voters to back the Conservatives, because Jeremy Corbyn could not be trusted on national security and is unfit to lead the country.

You could not make it up.

Yet more spiffing news:New Speaker Sir Lindsay has confirmed he will ban MPs trying to tear up the Commons rule book in future, and reverse Bercow’s reforms that allowed Remain MPs to block Brexit. Against the advice of constitutional experts at the time…

Speaking on Nick Robinson’s Political Thinking Podcast, Hoyle said his approach will make it much harder for a future House of Commons to resist the government of the day; specifically around whether MPs can amend business motions that set the way in which the Commons structures its debates.

Latest polls:

YouGov: CON: 36% (-2) LAB: 25% (-) LDEM 17% (+1) BREX: 11% (-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:17 PM

Great start for the Johnson's Junta that the Welsh Conservatives are entering a General election totally leaderless as a Welsh Cabinet Minister has been forced to resign for his involvement in interfering in a rape trial and there is nobody to replace him
It is totally unprecedented that any party should lose a senior minister after on the same day the former Prime Minister visits the queen to confirm an election, but this really is something else
The rape victim has said that not one of his party colleagues has contacted her for this appalling behaviour - shows the type of people Britain is being asked to elect are having to vote for   
Great to be back - just when you thought it was safe to get back in the water - eh-what !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 04:00 PM

It was his colleagues in the party that coined it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:48 PM

"the greased albino piglet"...he'd probably like that language, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:11 PM

It was all progressing without problems for a couple of days! I wonder why that was?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:41 PM

"Grefell Tower"
Wonderful cartoon in The Times showing Rees Mogg spraweled flat, as he was during Parliament's most important debate, like a superior despot - this time in the gutter
THat sums up perfectly this lot's attitude to those who elected them - everything that happens to them is their own fault for being poor

No surprise that these who showed themselves unwuilling to give the survivors the use of vacant property rather than upset the status quo should continue to support this cartoon caricature
So far in the debate, when people ask fro the right to homes jobs and education for their kids, Tories have described these please as "envy politics" - as if anybody would with occupy the same place in society as these greedy degenerates
The lie of health expenditure was inevitable - as was pointed out in a debate this morning, there will be no extra money being put into health but in fact the results of expenditure cuts over the last few years will be promised to be softened slightly (until after the election)
They have no intention of addressing the causes of crime - the continuing alienation of the poor - instead, the g' old US solution of bigger and better jails
You can bet your last on arming the police isn't that far way
Brexit has proved itself a total fiasco, so all they can hope for there is people will vote to end the war of attrition it has become (The LIb Dems appear to have shot themselves in the foot by apparently treating the people with the same contempt as the Tories with partonoising "don't worry you little heads - we'll make nasty Brexit go away without your help
What a ***** shower
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:07 PM

At least "For the many, not the few" has been a consistent slogan and does actually tell us something of policy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM

I noticed that as well, Dave. I am sure we will hear them both hundreds if not thousands of times in the next few weeks.

As an abstract discussion 'dither and delay' is a much smarter slogan than 'strong and stable'. As we saw, the problem with the latter slogan is that you can mess it up, or have it messed up around you by P45 pranksters. Because it describes a quality you claim to have. But even the most incompetent Tory can barely mess up 'dither and delay' because it is not about the speaker, but the other party. Also, both of them are statements about the future, whereas 'strong and stable' leaks into the present.

As I say, quite smart. As is Labour's 'get Brexit sorted' because it dilutes the 'Get Brexit done' and sows confusion in the minds of people who do not follow politics closely.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:28 PM

It's started then. The greased albino piglet used both of his unelected string puller's phrases in his election starting address. Has it really come to this? People would rather hear TV style catch phrases than sensible policies given in a serious manner. Politics has become a reality TV show where the only winners are the rich and powerful. How depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:10 PM

My poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "On the 2001 Election"

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:59 AM

My interest in your opinion stopped at your attempt to insult me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:49 AM

It's OK BWM. Between typing my question and hitting the submit button, I went off to make a pot of tea. I have now read the response from Ians, referring to James Cleverly.

My interest in your post stopped when I got to the Cone-Head insult so I hadn't noticed that you had worked in another "comic" reference later in the sentence.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:48 AM

So Kay Burley lied when she said in the video that he was booked to appear, and was fifteen feet away from her, refusing to appear, as she spoke?

If so, she’d make a good Tory politician.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:46 AM

Read the post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:40 AM

I know you like to make up insulting names for those you don't approve of, BWM, but who does "Cone-Head" refer to?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM

However the true story is: Kay Burley ’empty chaired’ James Cleverly this morning and the video is doing the rounds on social media, with almost 200,000 views it has been – shared by left-wing figures and Labour activists like Owen Jones. The only problem is Cleverly wasn’t booked to come on her show…
The true story from Guido, of course!

https://order-order.com/2019/11/06/oh-kay-burley-empty-chairs-cleverly-wasnt-booked-show/

"Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation"

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 10:40 AM

Kay Burley interviews an empty chair on Sky TV when Cone-Head Not-So-Cleverly chickens out...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 10:09 AM

More Stupendous Revelations. No doubt the working-class Tories would believe it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 09:16 AM

when the chimps at Monkey World wanted a new alpha male to lead the group, They got together and killed Rodney. The staff just found him dead one morning.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:57 AM

Polls all over the shop - no surprises there!
The zombie Parliament finally dissolved.

http://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:46 AM

God, I love Piers Morgan and I hate Piers Morgan...No, I love him but I hate him...But...

Ah, shit!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:17 AM

Whoever wins we get a despicable wanker, do we not!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM

Lies and evasion from Mr. Not-so-Cleverly.

What a bloody plonker!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:35 AM

Don't blame Parliament for doing its job, which is patently NOT to be a poodle to the Tory brexit attempts. The divisiveness of brexit in the country at large is accurately reflected in Parliament. In spite of persistent Tory attempts to undermine it, Parliamentary democracy is in a pretty good state at the moment. Which can't exactly be said for this botched and damaging Tory brexit.

I see that the Tory Welsh secretary has had to go, after being embroiled in a scandal in which he lied about what he knew about a discredited aide. The lying ads about universal credit have been banned by the ASA. And Boris has had to scupper his plan to use the civil service, whose wages we taxpayers pay, to produce numbers for him so that he can attack Labour spending plans. And Charlie Elphicke, embroiled in his own sex scandal, is still working for the Tory campaign despite being suspended from the party. Desperate times!   

The Grenfell issue will keep coming back to bite the Tories and could have a huge impact on this campaign. I note that Tory MPs at the final PMQ laughed at Corbyn's green tie, apparently not realising that he was wearing it that day as a tribute to the Grenfell victims. Oops!

Deceit, arrogance, entitlement, lies and more lies. The Tory way, given a new lease of life by the disgraceful Johnson.

And now they're comparing (unfavourably, of course) Corbyn with Pol Pot, Idi Amin and Uncle Joe. Bring it on!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:33 AM

So Alun Cairns resigns as Welsh Secretary minutes before Parliament is dissolved for the election. Is he still a candidate? If not, it is hardly a great sacrifice, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:44 AM

SNP, DUP, LidDems and maybe the Greens in the context of the youth eco-movements and Generation X signing on to vote.

The parliament should be hung. And may very well be. Plus ça change? We are living in interesting times.

But the majority of votes are split four ways now, at least.

Brexshit yes/no
& left/right

Throw in a soupçon of tactical voting, and ...... I leave it hanging

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM

So the Tories doctored a video in an attempt to misleadingly show Keir Starmer in a bad light, and have spent hundreds of thousands of in taxpayer money to lie to universal credit claimants. It looks like we are going to be confronted by a campaign of Tory lies. These tactics are not only undemocratic, they are anti-democratic. I also note that the attacks on Corbyn are in full flow, one of the latest of which compares him with Stalin. Bring it on, Tories. These are the tactics that lost you your majority last time. More please.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:19 AM

Thirdly, the fire brigade did not conjure this advice out of the air for the fun of it. It is based on much experience, and it is foolhardy, not common sense, to just ignore it.

Yet the Piper alpha enquiry highlighted the fact that mustering in the galley was a very bad idea and caused deaths that might have been preventable. There comes a time when you have to make your own mind up about your response. Having worked on an adjacent platform and watched the smoke rising from Piper Alpha, staying put would be the last thing on my mind.

I fully agree with what Rees Mogg had to say. I believe the fire brigade had no platforms capable of reaching the uppermost floors of Grenfell tower. Telling people to stay put when the chance of external rescue was nil is extremely flawed advice and for that alone whoever issued the advice should be prosecuted for gross negligence,

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:12 AM

Victim-blaming. How low can those arrogant Tory pieces of shit go? And how can any decent, self-respecting person vote for them?

Defies belief.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:32 AM

And I said, I was originally talking about Andrew Bridgen, not Rees-Mogg, so is a link to Sky News' comments on Bridgen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:25 AM

I posted a comment on the Brexit thread about Andrew Bridgen's attempted defence of Jacob Rees-Mogg's comments on the Grenfell fire.

Here are Rees-Mogg's remarks:

if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do.


And Nigel's response to me:
RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:43 PM

It's all very well to portray it as guidance from patricians, but the thought process at the time would have been:
"I'm in a burning building, should I follow my instincts, and get out, or follow the advice of the fire brigade and stay put?"


While the fire brigade were giving what they believed (at the time) to be the best advice, it has since transpired that "I'm in a burning building, I need to get out" would have been the best response for most of the victims.
JRM may not have phrased that well, and it may be that there is no way to phrase it without risking offending someone. But, generally speaking, his comments were truthful.

And what has this to do with Brexit anyway?

I have several problems with that, Nigel. Firstly, we live life forwards, not retrospectively. Agreed, on this occasion the advice was tragically flawed. But no one knew that at the time: they just had to go on the situation as it was. Even now, we can't be absolutely certain that there would have been less lives lost if people had not followed the advice.

The second problem is that we are talking about a tower block full of people. If you are on the thirteenth floor, you have very little understanding of the situation on, say, the fourth floor. So you may well be walking *into* the fire in an attempt to walk away from it. You are certainly reducing the number of fire doors between you and the fire *if it is from the inside of the building, not the outside.*
Then you could well find yourself in a crush on the stairs with lots of other residents, some of whom may be in a state of panic. That risks 'Hillsborough' effects.

Thirdly, the fire brigade did not conjure this advice out of the air for the fun of it. It is based on much experience, and it is foolhardy, not common sense, to just ignore it.

But all of this is just background to what was really offensive in RM's remarks - that it was in some way the fault of the victims because they failed to use common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:22 PM

And a very interesting opinion here from Prof. Sir John Curtice, the UK’s leading election expert, on the possible outcome of the election, and the very different effect the result may have on the two main parties.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 09:20 AM

The period between now and Dec 12 will be a very long time for Boris Johnson. And you can bet your bottom dollar that this Sunday morning the Tory Party will be praying fervently that there'll be no flu epidemic before the election. That would just about cause the NHS to implode and expose the shabby way it's been treated since the Tories took over, resulting in a lack of beds, understaffing, ballooning waiting lists and the disastrous state of A&E departments. My sister has been highlighting the terrible state of crumbling school buildings. These are Labour's strong points to emphasise in the campaign. They mustn't let the issues raised by the likes of the dreadful Nicky Morgan and co, important though they are, usurp the headlines at the expense of the real issues that face the country as a whole. Threats and abuse are far more to do with the unregulated culture of social media and a vicious us-and-them ethos whipped up by the right-wing press, not to speak of the rotten example set by Boris Johnson and his baying moronic friends in the Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 09:05 AM

A Scandinavian view, demonstrating the ridiculous horse-shit spread by the vile Tory liars about Corbyn - showing it up as the utter nonsense it most surely is.

An old (2017) piece, but no less true for that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 06:18 AM

swindon????? swinson!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 06:17 AM

Whoever wins, the UK will be run by idiots. johnson has become (arguably always was) a gold medal prick of the highest order, corbyn defies any description the English language cares to offer, and as for big tits swindon????????????

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM

The lefty luvvies will not like this clip on the Marr program. Even the flat earthers among them need to wise up. The stunning selection of newspapers on the table makes the point well.


https://order-order.com/2019/11/03/mcdonnell-shown-jewish-newspapers-condemning-labour/#disqus_thread

From guido(of course)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 05:10 AM

Boris's nightmare: "With friends like Donald and Nigel, who needs enemies..."


I think not!
Mr Trump won the presidency
The brexit party cleaned up in the EU elections.
Boris may pick up a few tips and thereby gain more popular support off populists.
A win win situation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Nov 19 - 04:56 AM

a friend was saying last night he reckoned it was bad that the tories were going to get an easy win. instinctively, i thought that was unlikely - but am i just getting my hopes up again? so doomed to be pissed off again. it's the hope that kills - i wish had the strength to just ignore the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 06:12 AM

i have such exciting news. after seeing the headline 'Workington Man to decide election' imagine my reaction to the news i was the Workington man chosen to make the decision'!

'thanks very much, brenda-now you and all your family can take a well-earned rest, choose one palace'

'well, not quite yet, pete, your job is to decide the election result not future policy - choose wisely'

'aye sorry - i was getting ahead of myself there'

'well-it's understandable in the circs'

anyway, we are going to have a labour/green coalition with a large majority. scotland will have a SNP/green split. the rest none'


ok, hope that saves everyone a lot of effort and argument - now we can all settle down and be nice to each other and the planet - peace comrades!


(if there is anyway of putting this on the new general election thread i would be grateful)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:47 AM

Another thing I was saying to my wife this morning: the broadcasters will be scrutinised with a much greater intensity than ever at this election. Many parties will want them to be an uncritical conduit of whatever spun messages they want to promote, and the parties will be up in arms about any occasion that the distortions in the messages are pointed out. Expect lots of Trumpish calls of fake media and bias.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Nov 19 - 05:20 AM

A comic, but fairly accurate, account of the Brexit Party launch from Tom Peck in the Independent. The italics are his.

====

And so we turn to Nigel Farage, standing on a stage in a church hall in Westminster, demanding Boris Johnson both rip up his withdrawal agreement – the one, single achievement of his time as prime minister – and also to stand down Tory candidates in dozens of seats, to allow his party a clear run at them.


Or else? Or else what? Or else Nigel Farage will put up Brexit Party candidates in every single constituency, and do exactly what he did last time round in 2015. Which, he even actually explained, was to steal Eurosceptic votes from Labour voters who just can’t countenance voting Conservative, and as a consequence hand David Cameron his majority.

That, for now, is the plan. Give me what you can’t possibly give me or else I’ll win you the election.

=====
Whether it is true that he would be able to steal more votes from Labour than from Conservatives in the Labour heartlands is not clear, but it is what Nigel threatened...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM

Boris's nightmare: "With friends like Donald and Nigel, who needs enemies..."

Subject: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 19 - 01:08 PM

May as well start it now. The brexit thread is getting a bit long in the tooth and although the election may be fought around brexit, there are many other issues at stake.

Good summary from Mark Steel in The Independant Main headline -

After nine years running us into the ground, the Tories declare that ‘Britain deserves better’ than them

Enjoy :-)