BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:41 PM

”We have no need to crow”

So why have you crowed so much since 13/12/19, not to mention gloated? There’s only one thing more disgusting and nauseating than a bad loser, and that’s a bad winner.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:29 PM

"but control of WHAT,precisely?"..


..their fantasies and delusions...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:24 PM


“We, the people, took back control”

Excuse this from a Yank, but control of WHAT,precisely?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:16 PM

As well as the usual insane who believe they are Napoleon and Christ,
asylums may soon need to open up a new ward for the most deluded brexiteers...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:08 PM

If we the people, having taken back control, dislike the actions of a political party we remove them via the ballot box. Ask Wurzel the goon, he has first hand experience.
We have no need to crow, we have merely to point out the salient facts:!
Democracy restored!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 01:50 PM

“We, the people, took back control”

...and handed total control to the party of the immensely wealthy, powerful elite.

There’s an old aphorism which ‘You, the people’ would do very well to keep in mind - “Act in haste, repent at leisure’.

I have a very strong suspicion that many of the crowers and gloaters currently having a good time here, on social media, and elsewhere might, in the fullness of time, rue the day they decided that ‘taking back control’ by giving their votes to a party headed by a proven habitual liar, philanderer, friend of multi-billionaire tax-dodgers, and coward was in their interests.

I hope I’m wrong. I fear I’ll be proved right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 12:16 PM

the UK Government could go down a similar route if it wished.

The impartiality of the Judiciary has not really been questioned until the antics of Gina Millar and the judgement of the blair construct of the supreme court. That is why I would prefer to revert to what was before. Had the PM retained the ability to go to the polls when he/she wished the circus of recent months would have been avoided.
The electorate held parliament accountable to their promise to deliver brexit. It was only because parliament thought itself above the people, and acted in defiance of them, that this sorry saga resulted.
As was clearly demonstrated the people have sovereignty. As will our country very shortly.
We, the people, took back control. It has a nice ring to it does it not? It is anathema to socialists and that makes it even sweeter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM

"But socialists ignore such distinctions. After all how can you have democracy with Totalitarianism?"

I just think the right's obsession with 'commie socialist totalitarianism' is just extreme nutcase paranoia
if they actually believe the shite they are constantly regurgitating to demonise anyone slightly left of centre...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:32 AM

It is worth reminding ourselves that in the US appointments to the Supreme Court are highly political, the UK Government could go down a similar route if it wished.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:29 AM

Before the supreme court was established the Law Lords performed a similar purpose. I think there were 12 of them, but I could be wrong. It was not the Lord Chancellor. And it is the Government suggesting there needs to be political involvement in appointments to the Supreme Court (or, presumably, whatever might replace it.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:20 AM

An accountable body is an elected body. An elected body only exists by permission of the electorate with a mandate renewed at regular intervals. No circle to be square just a basic understanding of how your democracy works. But socialists ignore such distinctions. After all how can you have democracy with Totalitarianism?

Are you really happy that it stuffs the supreme court (or its replacement) with hard-left judges? Or do you think they need to be more independent than that?
I have already said I would prefer the supreme court be dismantled and the Lord Chancellor revert to his previous role.
Politics has no place in the Judiciary.
The recent machinations of the supreme court were entirely political and trying to deny the democratic vote to leave the EU. No other argument can demonstrate otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 09:15 AM

"........... only an accountable body can inflict legislation on the house and subsequently on the electorate, not an un-elected rabble"

"The people are sovereign-not parliament"

Anyone like to square this circle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 09:02 AM

Naturally we disagree, Iains. Mature democracies rely on separation of powers. The more centralised the power in one individual, or that individual and his appointees, the nearer you get to some form of totalitarianism. It is the legitimate role of the courts to ensure the Government acts in a way that is lawful. It is the legitimate role of Parliament to insist it has enough time to properly scrutinise laws proposed by the Government.

Having a very large majority makes the Government better able to ensure Parliament goes along with its wishes, and indeed to introduce legislation to change the balance between its component parts. This large majority happens every so often in our voting system - it did for Blair and Thatcher, for example, so it is not unique to Johnson. What is unique, to the best of my knowledge, is that both Blair and Thatcher were very clear what they intended to do with such a majority if they got one. Johnson's pitch was notable for rarely looking beyond the end of Jan 2020. So until the Queens Speech was read today, we had little information of what he intended. I haven't had a chance to study in detail, but what I have read of it (after Jan) is mainly symbolism: there is no need to have a legal obligation to spend a certain amount on the NHS, for example: you can just spend it. That move is about sending messages, not actually doing something as such. Similarly the moves on detention for terrorists - certainly welcomed by some, but just how many people does the legislation actually affect? Not many. So again more symbolic than effective.


But to get back to the courts etc. It is always worth asking the question what happens if the roles are reversed. Suppose someday - a decade or more away if you like - a hard left government gets into power. Are you really happy that it stuffs the supreme court (or its replacement) with hard-left judges? Or do you think they need to be more independent than that?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:36 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM
Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Any source for that claim? Or is it just more opinion paraded as fact?

Even the BBC says: Worst ever month for A&E
Overall just 81.4% of A&E patients were seen within four hours last month - that is the worst performance since the target was introduced in 2004.
And if 81.4% is the worst since the target was introduced in 2004 then your figure of 75% seems rather dubious!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:35 AM

@DMcG. Government leads the agenda, government leads the house. Parliament is there to dispute, refute,or pass legislation. The Lords is there to review legislation with a fine tooth comb. They may propose amendments, not prevent legislation.
There is an old maxim no taxation without representation. Turn this around and you come up with the idea that only an accountable body can inflict legislation on the house and subsequently on the electorate, not an un-elected rabble. The courts have no role in parliament, that is the role of parliamentarians.
Had the corrosive speaker not enabled, and had the PM retained the remit to call an election this circus of the last few months would never have happened.
The electorate voted out in the referendum.b Certain   MPs thought to frustrate the will of the people. The people are sovereign-not parliament. Those that disputed this concept are now cast to the four winds. Rightly so.
Next the meddling Courts need to be put firmly back in their place and prevented from playing politics ever again. This would be best achieved by dismantling blairs supreme court and revering to past practise.
It is not a question of the courts or parliament restricting the government of the day, it is a clear question of preventing either body ever subverting the government again. If Parliament disagrees with the government they can topple it if powerful enough. The ballot box within parliament or the ballot box of the electorate has alays resolved these questions in the past.
No one should ever try to ride roughshod over the people, or try ti frustrate a government carrying out the wishes of the people.
This election has writ this principle in letters large.
The arrogance that was Soubry,Anna Soubry, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve not onlt were booted out by the PM but infinitely more satisfying booted out by the electorate.
The only lesson to take away from this is that the people will not be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:28 AM

Bonz - does private medical insurance provide emergency cover
for older folks falling and breaking a hip..
or would they still need NHS A&E...???

Take care this winter...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:20 AM

Iains - the lefties get worse, I wallow in their defeat!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM

Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 07:56 AM

Anyone recall hearing about this bad news in the lead up to the General Election?

Me neither.

Mind you, the Tories would have just claimed it’s the fault of the last Labour government which lost power ten years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:36 AM

Hidden away on page 48 of the Conservative manifesto is this: “After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts”.
Never again will a rabble dictate to parliament.

Nigel and I had a discussion on this quite a few days ago now in one of the two Brexit threads. I find it odd you seem to have just found out about it.

You seem to be on my side of the argument, which is that amendments to 'the broader aspects' will aim to reduce the ability of the courts or Parliament restricting what the Government chooses to do.

Nigel did not agree it meant that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:36 AM

So can we narrow that down to which European countries
don't have council houses, free education, free health care...???

..and which even better European countries we should envy and want to move to,
if we could...???

Then once that's established, determine why some Europeans have been given the impression
that ours is such a marvelous utopia to want to live in...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM

No one is calling you racist for voting leave, Al. They are calling you racist because you say East Europeans are criminals and immigrants are scroungers. A fact you seem to be trying to avoid but don't worry, I have the two statements copied. Here they are again

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston

then along comes the free movement of European citizens. they all want council houses, free education, free health care.

Rest assured that I will remind you of them every time you play the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:33 AM

Iains:

You need to get out of your shell. Tell people what you really think! Possibly an assertiveness training class, although if you are on the right side of the pond you might have other words for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:29 AM

Worzel's winning words. REAL CHANGE (He got that all right!)


https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf
Labour's death warrant in 107 pages

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM .............................?

The prosecco kid strikes again.
The tabloids have ensured that his legacy is tarnished

I suggest you read the CV of the marxist loon, when you sober up.   His own actions condemn him. But continue self denial, it supports the valiant brexiteers.

Now for a little cheer me up posting from the gruniard:
Hidden away on page 48 of the Conservative manifesto is this: “After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts”.
Never again will a rabble dictate to parliament. All the leading lights of this movement have been thoroughly rejected by the electorate, and the poison dwarf who enabled them cast from his throne.
Even bliar blair admitted compo was poison. Let us hope chew on lemons thornberry is made leader. That will guarantee another 40 years in the wilderness for labour.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:02 AM

A different view from George Monbiot here, talking about the way to change our broken ‘top-down’ system of politics.

‘Political Re-wilding’. Sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:09 PM

Iains is indulging in the classic tory victory dance
of continuing to kick their opponent lifeless
after they sucker punched him down to the ground...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:58 PM

I know you're ignoring me and that's okay, Steve. It's a tactic like any other, sorta like no fairness in politics. I'm just taking a moment to point it out. There are some arguments and opinions you are not ready to respond to. Or too condescending to acknowledge.

Iain. Your post confirmed my opinion. You're getting your own back. As Homer Simpson said to Montgomery Burns, "The classy thing would be not to draw attention to it!"

So I guess neither of us are that classy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:19 PM

There's a bit of a fine line to tread for Labour. Jezza redefined where Labour should be: none of your metro elite shite, plenty of proper socialism, nationalising the friggin' sharks in the energy industry who've been ripping us off for years, etc etc. The tabloids have ensured that his legacy is tarnished. So be it. But we don't need to ditch that principled approach. We need a leader who will respect that legacy and move it forward. If the people don't like it, tough shit. At least we've stuck to our principles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:06 PM

there was actually something quite likable about that Owen Smith,
but he's buggerd off out of it for whatever to where ever...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:04 PM

I'm amazed at your Damascene conversion, Bonzo, let alone your solicitous concern for poor old Labour...

But Hilary and co have had their day. Ain't happening. Half a million people like me will pick the next leader, and I suspect that 0.00983% of us would support Hilary.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:54 PM

The best man for the job Hilary Benn is sadly not standing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM

You're severely neurotic and you are clearly a right-wing plant. Who is it: Tommy? Semen Staines?? How does it feel to be a poodle? I'm researching the wordings of your posts at the moment, going back a fair while, comparing and contrasting (so don't even begin to think you can modify now), in order to see what you're copy and pasting. It isn't looking good for you so far, but you know me, I'm thorough and I don't spill the beans until I'm sure...

Found any good new cellphone masts lately? Or would you prefer to post from your home computer?? Thought not! Maybe you live in a cardboard box...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:36 PM

If pure as driven snow, why is the equality and human rights commission
investigating Labour. Do you think they believe it is racist antisemitic crap?
I hardly think so.

But rest assured your continual denial makes your party unelectable and even if Corbyn is cast aside there is no replacement with any credibility. Until you purge momentum and all the other extremists your cause is lost.
I believe selling the idea that compo had a lifelong opposition to racism and injustice is a nonstarter and easily disproved. The lefty bubble of delusion is still riding strong.

Believe me, your inability to accept what everyone is telling you suits me and the brexiteers down to the ground. The smug certainty of the opinions offered by the likes of shaw and the gnome and their constant string of abuse lost the election.
Their inability to be 'umble will lose the next election.
and the one after ..............etc

Robomatic. I have had constant abuse off the cabal here for years.
I was right, they were wrong. Hardly surprising I wish to rub their noses in it for a while.
They and their remainiac ilk have blown away 3.5 years
by refusing to accept the democratic vote,
by attempting to veto no deal they destroyed our bargaining position, they tried to subvert democracy by hijacking Parliament with the collusion of the poison dwarf bercow.
They tried to stop brexit by going to court every 5 minutes.
Well it seems the electorate agreed with me in spades and annihilated
labour. Democracy has been restored.
When the remainiacs man up and accept defeat and stop blaming everyone else but themselves, then I will stop crowing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:24 PM

I suppose they wore Salford socks in Salford docks!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:22 PM

I agree with your first paragraph completely, Pete. I joined Labour when Corbyn was elected. I'm not resigning any time soon. We couldn't and can't win with him at the helm, best candidate for PM by a country mile though he was. I think we need Rebecca Long-Bailey, a grounded, young, working-class northern woman who will shed all those Corbyn negatives whilst maintaining his legacy. She is more than a match for Johnson because she comes from her heart and she keeps her cool. He's shit scared of people like her. He can't handle principle. And I'd back Angela Rayner for deputy. They are great mates and would work well together, even though Angela is no Corbynite. But not bloody Yvette, please. And Kier, good bloke though he is, will be characterised as a remainer man-in-suit who has splinters up his arse from fence-sitting over Jeremy. Emily Thornberry is a very unattractive figure who says bloody daft things, and Jess, though confident and direct, has dissed Jezza, so not her. So that's my pitch. As for your second paragraph, I'll have to have a think.

And I'm biased in favour of Becky because she's the MP for Salford, where me mum comes from, and her dad worked in Salford socks, just like my grandad. That'll do me! Dirty Old Town!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:54 PM

'no-one called corbyn a racist' ? really? despite his lifelong opposition to racism and injustice this 'racist, anti-semitic' crap was one of the most repeated and most effective insults in the whole campaign

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM

I don't know. I just keep thinking what a bloody tragedy we lost John Smith when we did.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 PM

Hoe true is it Corbyn has wanted to step down over the last few years,
but kept getting persuaded to stick it out...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:12 PM

I support. Labour but I get very pissed off with people who put their fantasies of Utopia before the practicality of getting elected.

I think most of the abuse came from Corbynista/Momentum lot PFR.

No one called Corbyn a racist - like I have been called repeatedly on this thread. And to be honest - this is just small appetiser for what has been going on FB.

A study from Lancaster University (which is broadly supportive of Labour, certainly anti-tory) stated one of the main reasons labour lost was because 'it portrayed people with legitimate and understandable concerns about EU immigratiom as knuckle dragging racists.'

That's what those two have done here and its why Labour lost. Boundless arrogance. The besetting middle class moral failure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:06 PM

Steve:

Thanks for the explication. I don't agree with you but I understand you slightly more better. Might be worthwhile putting together a thread on Marxism as its own subject. I don't know if I'm up to it. My main point which I'm sure you understood was to the matter of perception. "Get Brexit Done" is as you said stupidly dense but it is also genius in its encapsulated appeal. To quote Mel Brooks from one of his bits "I said 'It's too simple. I didn't know then it was eloquent.'"

Iains:

Normally when you get criticized by the usual gang (not me) it's for simply stating a case that many folks in this forum disagree with. But now you are simply crowing over a perceived 'win' rather than explaining WHY it is a win or examining why it might indeed be pyrrhic (Winning the argument while the UK becomes the nonK).

You're all mostly stuck together on an island. Make it a proud island and not a messy lifeboat. You know 'Keep calm and carry on' and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:52 PM

i've supported corbyn - he's why i rejoined the party. i thought the manifesto was great and good to see the party proposing sensible, moderate policies that do have plenty of popular support. however, there was so much shite thrown at him that inevitably a load of it stuck to him and , and us. the baseless anti-semitic slurs for example seemed to hit home while the disgraceful windrush situation, the tories' hostile environment and their cosying up to-and selling arms to- any nasty dictator who wanted them was always presented to us as non-issues. in fact, it was disgusting institutional racism over many years - a wee bit more serious than a passing comment about a possibly dodgy picture 25 years ago.

and yet..... corbyn should have known, unfair as it was, a load of the shite had stuck to him and it did weigh him, and us, down. he could have gone 18 months back and been well-respected for a job well-done. is it only me that thinks that proposing to be prime minister at 75 years old while rightly condemning the tory policy of deferring retirement til folk are 75 is ridiculous? he should have left - and i'm angry with him that he didn't step aside.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:10 PM

Al, are you SURE you support Labour?

Every one of your posts sounds increasingly like you are Iains little clone.

If that sounds like an insult it is meant to be.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:51 PM

Al - I'm less inclined to be so critical of Corbyn...

He was almost a great leader, better than expected..

But not strong enough to withstand the relentless crusades from all sides
to destroy him..

He was way to reasonable and nice, too weak in constantly appeasing his false accusers,
rather than standing up firm and fighting back when needed...
He let some very vile enemies get away with too much for far too long...!!!

That's what exasperated me about him...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:44 PM

Big Al you should encourage the woke wazzocks. Their views are poison to most of the electorate. If they cannot accept their stupidity labour will never be in power again.
I recommend you look at some of the aussie youtube clips of sky news. They pull no punches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZQEU5uxXZ0

I like the crack about hugh grant inducing projectile vomiting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:34 PM

Margaret Hodge re-elected... oh well..

is Barking a Labour safe seat, or a Hodge safe seat...???

She'll have to retire,
or get kicked out of the party for disloyalty and divisiveness eventually..

Good luck to the next party leader facing this problem...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:27 PM

Steve you are more gullible and naive than thee most stupid person who voted Tory if you believed Corbyn could win.

Try to absorb how bloody naive and gullible that is. Think about it for 24 hours before coming up with all this self righteous rubbish.

I know that you and Dave couldn't face the fact a more considered and intelligent approach was called for. But that was the case. Calling people like me racist - long time Labour voters is just the tip of this arrogance iceberg.

Corbyn in a way is not to blame. Its people like you two - who managed to persuade him to provide BJ with softest target imaginable.

Corbyn won't take ownership. He blames the press- even though hardly anyone reads them. Perhaps you've got more intellectual imtegrity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:46 AM

The list seems to have stopped at the fake news of Matt Hancock's aide being punched. Not sure if they will update it now the liar in chief has been given free reign say what he likes. I do hope they continue it but even if they don't it is always worth reminding people anyway

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 08:16 AM

Self delusion is a joy to watch, especially when it is the loopy left, who cannot follow their own advice.

No russians this time round? Guess we have to blame it all on wurzel the goon then!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM

First day at nursery :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:46 AM

It is getting funnier by the post isn't it. Keep it up Steve, he's getting into stroke territory. Have you seen the brexit thread too? Apoplectic on there. If everyone else was to ignore him too I don't think he'd see the year out :-)