BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 11:22 AM

631 Conservative Candidates have today written a letter to their Labour opponent asking them to clarify their own personal positions on crucial issues at the election. An important tactic given Corbyn’s indecision…

The letters ask Labour candidates to outline:

    Their Brexit position
    Whether they’ll also remain neutral during a second referendum
    Whether they want a Scottish Independence referendum

The letter claims their position as Corbyn’s candidate “needs urgent clarification to help local people make their choice”

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 12:01 AM

Corbyn's stance on Brexit, explained in pictures, so that Johnson and other feeble-minded people have a chance to understand a grown-up's way of dealing with the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 08:00 AM

The Official Mouthpiece of The Conservative Party - the BBC - at it again, Editing their reporting in an effort to make our National Liar-in-Chief appear to be slightly less of a deceitful Wankpuffin than he actually is.

Time they changed their name to the CPC - Conservative Propaganda Corporation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 07:50 AM

Precisely. That is why it is as compatible as any other interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 05:08 AM

And of course, a soft Brexit is 100% compatible with what the famed 17.4m voted for.

Merely an opinion with jackshit to support it. 17.4m voted for brexit.
It was not soft, hard or covered in chocolate within a fancy wrapper. It was simply brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Nov 19 - 04:01 AM

I agree, MacGrath. And it is worth looking at the other outcome as well. Both the EU and Labour understand that the result of a second referendum is not a foregone conclusion: Leave might win. So it is in both their interests to agree the best deal they can in case they have to implement it. The only thing that is ruled out is the hardest of Brexits, but since that is not what Labour would be arguing for, and is not what the EU want, that is not really a limitation.

And of course, a soft Brexit is 100% compatible with what the famed 17.4m voted for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 08:33 PM

I was pleased to see the Labour manifesto promises to allow the Chagos Islanders to return home.

And I'd be getting back my free TV licence.

And four new bank holidays, one for St George, one for St Patrick, one for St Andrew and one for St David.

Lot of good stuff there in the details.
.............

I think Jo Stimson has blown it completely. What made her performance look even worse was that it came after Nicola Sturgeon's master class.
..............
I am puzzled by the suggestion that the EU would be the least worried by the thought that Jeremy Corbyn would not be campaigning to encourage people to back a deal he had negotiated. All the evidence I've seen is that they would see a referendum outcome for Britain to remain in the EU as far preferable to any deal for its leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 04:54 PM

I begrudge voting for any such low grade leaders I must say!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 04:28 AM

By a very wide margin, the best moment of the programme last night.

A blond, lying buffoon outclassed and schooled by a quietly-spoken, classy woman, young enough to be his daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 04:22 AM

Let's remind you about the post I made on the 21st November:


The EU is "open to" Labour's Brexit policy of renegotiating the Brexit agreement to include a customs union and single market membership, Leo Varadkar has said.

Asked about the Labour manifesto the Irish leader told public broadcaster RTE that the bloc would be "very happy" with sitting down with "whoever is prime minister" and that the opposition's policy would not be a problem.


Emma and others can argue until they are blue in the face - what a fortunate alignment between cliché and stance - that the EU will not try to negotiate a deal unless Corbyn says he would support leave or remain, rather than be avowedly neutral, but she can only do so by ignoring what they have already said.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 03:51 AM

Pretty fair analysis in The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 23 Nov 19 - 03:46 AM

I think I must have watched a different program. Magic grandad still cannot say if he is coming or going. His previous supporters can see straight through his policies and are scattering like chaff in the wind to find safety and solace in the Tory party

It is the mark of the man and a measure of his astounding insensitivity or political naivety that he launches his manifesto in Birmingham on the 45th anniversary of the IRA bombing that killed 21 and injured 182 people. He and his cabal have some very dodgy political affiliations and people will not like having their noses rubbed in it by his grandstanding above. Shame on the man!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:15 PM

Gosh, yes, Emma has a message all right. I agree with BWM's analysis. I think that there's the germ of a progressive alliance there between Nicola and Jeremy. They are prowling around each other a bit at present but in the event of a hung parliament, which is the best I can hope for, I think that realpolitik will kick in.

One thing's for sure. Jo Swinson is doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:53 PM

I shouldn't think Newsnight will be better, with Emma Barnet, who I find an exceptionally poor interviewer (sorry: presenter. Newsnight doesn't call them interviewers.)

This is not a matter of agreeing with her or not: I don't agree with Andrew Neil much, but his is a far more capable interviewer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

I’m pretty much with Steve - except that, for me, Nicola Sturgeon was the most impressive, answering every question intelligently and in terms that everyone could understand, with JC a close seecond. Jo Swinson was a car-crash, and Johnson was, as you would expect, all bluster, lies, catch-phrases, wind and piss.

I could have punched the South African-sounding cock who rattled on about ‘anti-semitism’ in his obnoxious face - an obvious plant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 05:24 PM

Well the Beeb 10 o'clock News remained painfully neutral about it. Maybe Newsnight will be better. Whether you watch it back depends on how valuable you regard the remaining hours of your life to be. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:48 PM

I was out at a choir practice, so did not see it. Is it worth trying to find on some catch up service?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:41 PM

Jeremy did pretty well, I thought, maintaining dignity, sounding well-prepared and able to explain Labour's policies and defend himself against the usual attacks. Even the odd spot of levity (a bit more of that from him would be good). Nicola wasn't closing any doors either. The audience made mincemeat of the shallow Swinson and tore Johnson to pieces. Does it matter? Who knows...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:07 PM

Just watched the question time special and remembered why I stopped watching in the first place. They still haven't realised that the Daily Heil plants in the audience are just too obvious.

Still, it was worth it to see Bozo flailing round cluelessly when confronted about lying and the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 09:32 AM

I think the key to that is the term 'valid register', by the way. I suspect he will be the one to decide on the register's validity.   Or to put it another way, to have ultimate control.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 07:35 AM

Apparently Farage is claiming the Brexit party would introduce a “citizens’ initiative”, triggering a referendum if 5 million people sign a valid register calling for a public vote on a particular issue.

What was that about a never ending referendum on Brexit? I am sure remainers can find 5m, and then whoever wins the other side can find 5m, and again, and again ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM

Latest polls:

IpsosMORI: CON: 44% (+3) LAB: 28% (+4) LDEM: 16% (-4) BREX: 3% (-4)
ComRes: CON: 42% (+1) LAB: 31% (-2) LDEM: 15% (+1) BREX: 5% (-)

Survation – Great Grimsby Constituency: CON: 44% (+2) LAB: 31% (-18%) BREX: 17% (+17) LDEM: 4% (+1)

PaddyPower Majority Odds (Previous in Brackets):

       Tories: 1/2 (4/9)
       No overall: 7/4 (15/8)
       Labour: 25/1 (25/1)
       Lib Dems: 250/1 (250/1)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 06:05 AM

The Beattie advertisement is worth thinking about. It was paid for by Mainstream, which is lead by Ian Austin, which claims to be "The campaign against extremism."

But what, supposedly, was the final straw for Beattie? Antisemitism? No. She talks about that, but it was not the final straw. Other racism? No, that's not even mentioned.

So what does Mainstream, in the guise of Beattie, regard as the final straw?

"... getting his allotment hands on my broadband ... he wants to take it away and ruin it."

Is that really the final straw for "The campaign against extremism"? Really? That is what pushed you over the edge?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 04:46 AM

The Labour manifesto:
The Madness that is Corbyn !

Beattie asks:
Why would anyone vote for Corbyn?
(apart from the unwashed, brainwashed guardian readers)

From Guido(of course!)


https://order-order.com/2019/11/22/beattie-asks-anybody-vote-labour-party/#disqus_thread



The great proof of madness is the disproportion of one's designs to one's means. (even with the abbacus doing the sums!)

Napoleon Bonaparte

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 02:21 AM

Good idea, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 02:12 AM

As whoever has now bought that site, what I would suggest is replacing by a very sparse page saying "This is NOT the Conservative manifesto site. It was created as a reaction to the Conservatives creating a false Labour site, to show how easy it is to spread false information.

The actual Conservative manifesto has not yet been released. When it is, we will link to it from here."

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 19 - 01:57 AM

Pretty certain the fake ‘Tory Manifesto’ site had nothing to do with the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:46 PM

Agreed, Dave, but I'm not sure we need to be doing it. Jeremy wiped out the Tory majority last time by staying calm, putting his policies forward and refusing to partake in dog fights. He knows that the provocation is assertively there, but he refuses to indulge it. Let's stay high!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:23 PM

Of course its going to blow up and possibly backfire.
People are sick of phishing expeditions that lie cheat and steal.
What some call a dirty trick is the aberration of human consciousness called 'perception is reality' which goes back to our prehistoric roots. If it looks true and is repeated enough people start to believe it is true. Ancient Egyptians come to mind. Add some grand architecture with pictures of a dog's head on a human body and poof you'll see you can fool most people most of the time. The great lie is amazingly durable.

The CIA used this ruse, the US President lives by it and the Russians really love it.

Common sense is seeing past the perception and embracing the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:10 PM

At least that one is funny and blatantly fake, Steve. Well, I found it funny anyway :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:45 PM

Well, I'd rather see us taking the high road. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

Well at least somebody’s taking revenge on the Tories....

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:13 PM

It also transpired that the Tories tried to infiltrate the Labour List website by trying to buy advertising space, a move blocked by Labour List.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM

Two staunch Tories in the office today were saying they thought the wizzy website scheme might backfire. It is one thing for opponents to say the Tories are untrustworthy but another to see something that you think is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:50 PM

That website is a disgrace. It is blatantly intended to deceive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:45 PM

He lied in his teeth yesterday about how much we'd get from his national insurance proposals. He said five hundred, the real benefit would be eighty-five. It seems that blatant and repetitive lying has no consequences any more. That's very depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 03:27 PM

Tory dirty tricks abound. Relabeled their Twitter account 'Factcheck' and have now created a fake Labour website called https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/ and are paying Google to promote it. I do hope it backfires on them

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:56 PM

Quite an important comment reported in the Guardian:

=====
The EU is "open to" Labour's Brexitpolicy of renegotiating the Brexit agreement to include a customs union and single market membership, Leo Varadkar has said.

Asked about the Labour manifesto the Irish leader told public broadcaster RTE that the bloc would be "very happy" with sitting down with "whoever is prime minister" and that the opposition's policy would not be a problem.

======

No doubt that will be reported widely. Who knows, maybe even Guido will mention it
...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 07:46 AM

It seems that there are no depths the Tories refuse to sink to in their Fake Propaganda campaign.

I'm really not interested in their opinions about Labour policies, I want to hear how the Tories themselves are proposing to make the lives of myself, my family, and every other ordinary citizen of the UK, better after 12th December, 2019. I wonder why we're not hearing about that? Could it be that they have Sweet Fuck All to offer?

They really are The Nasty Party. A truly filthy bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM

Wonder what the Greased Albino Piglet and his fellow liars are afraid of?

The only large-circulation newspaper that isn't running wall-to-wall Tory propaganda stories is banned from their 'battle bus'. Makes me wonder exactly what it is they feel they need to hide (other than everything we already know about)?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 02:58 PM

"but in fact his stance is responsible and honest."
Couldn't agree more
He has committed himself to dealing with the result of the referendum by allowing the people to confirm it
He could have just ignored it as the Lib Dems have
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM

Quite right, DMcG. But May's deal does have that backstop... It would be a starting point, but to get rid of the backstop he'd need a customs union.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 01:28 PM

(meaning he could well be stuck with Johnson's)

I am not sure about that. In order to get a deal done in three months then he has to work from something that exists already. I suspect he would start from May's deal, and negotiate on the Political Declaration section. We know Labour have had discussions in the past, and from the timing this would have been based on May's deal. We also know the EU indicated that some of Labour's proposed changes to the declaration would be acceptable in principle. Since May's deal is closer to what Labour want than Johnson's, I think it unlikely he would want to use Johnson's as the starting point.

The only other option which stands a chance of being agreed in three months takes Norway as a starting point, but that has not had the intense scrutiny that May's deal had, so I don't think it a likely basis.

I agree with all the rest of your comments, though, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:55 PM

Corbyn persistently refused to answer the unreasonable question about whether he would campaign for remain or leave in a second referendum campaign. That looked weak, but in fact his stance is responsible and honest. In the (unlikely) event of his obtaining a working majority, he has promised to negotiate a new deal with the EU. He doesn't know whether the EU will negotiate one at all (meaning he could well be stuck with Johnson's), or would give the process enough time, or whether they will be inclined to negotiate for a much softer brexit than Johnson managed (I suspect that they would, especially if Corbyn asks for a customs union and closer alignment with the single market). The EU could well cut up rough over free movement. All sorts of things. So who knows what a deal would look like? Which is why the question is unreasonable.

And there are faint echoes here of Cameron calling a referendum then campaigning for it to "fail"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:50 PM

ONE DOWN - MANY THOUSANDS MORE TO GO -- COMMON SENSE ANFD DECENCY OF COURSE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 12:09 PM

Former UKIP now Tory candidate Amjad Bashir has been suspended as the party’s candidate in Leeds North East over comments he made as an MEP claiming British Jews return from Israel having been “brainwashed”
From Guido of course!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:18 PM

Yes, it is clear.

But there are those who are determined will not accept that clarity. Hence Johnson's insistence that Corbyn must say he is for leave or remain. He knows there are a lot of people who can be persuaded anything other than one of those is avoidance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:06 PM

I wonder what is so difficult to understand about, “We will give the electorate a choice between the new deal which we will negotiate, and remaining in the EU - whichever they choose, that’s what we will do”.

Seems absolutely unequivocal to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 05:03 PM

i have not seen the debate ,but the labour party stance is clear.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 19 - 04:11 PM

I am sure each side will have different views about who won the ITV debate, but it seemed to me Johnson said very little beyond "Get Brexit Done" and "Corbyn can't say if he would campaign for leave or remain." And he shoe-horned these in whatever the question was. When challenged about personal integrity he seemed unable to take on the meaning of 'personal' however often he was redirected to it. And he continually overran in his answers and the chair had a lot of problem stopping him.

As could be anticipated, Corbyn looked weakest when he was trying to explain the party line on Brexit. I am afraid many people people are unable or unwilling to comprehend an answer more complex than 'Leave' or 'Remain'. So having a more subtle stance is always going to look bad, and it did.