BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:09 AM

Stop whining shaw. you lost. get over it. No one wants to listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 06:00 AM

Corbyn identifies himself as a democratic socialist. During the seventies I allied myself (though never joined, as I don't wish to be bound by ideology) to a true Marxist group in London trade union politics, along with Blair Peach and others. We regarded Jeremy Corbyn and his allies, who were our contemporaries, as non-revolutionaries a bit to the right of us, and they in turn distanced themselves from us. Call me a Marxist and I may or may not wear it as a badge of honour. Mass media calling Corbyn a Marxist, unreconstructed or not (in itself a pejorative word), is both an intended demonising slur and a downright lie.

As for democracy, here are some things that are not undemocratic:

Suggesting that the LibDems disband

Suggesting that the LibDems split the vote

Criticising the LibDems for splitting the vote

The LibDems declaring that they would scrap brexit without a vote if they got power

Calling for a third referendum (the second one was on June 23 2016 and I don't recall the brexit brigade objecting to THAT one)

Here are some things that are undemocratic:

Deliberately oversimplifying extremely complex issues by sloganising ("get brexit done")

Lying about what voting in 2016 meant ("the people voted to leave the single market and customs union" when you can bet your bottom dollar that the vast majority of the electorate didn't have a clue what they were or even knew of their existence at all)

Lying that the referendum delivered "the will of the people" when only 38% of the electorate and 25% of the population voted leave

Lying about the amount of money per week we would save by leaving

Lying about immigration by using a photograph of mostly non-white refugees

Lying about controlling our borders when we don't control the non-EU immigration that we COULD control and when we can't control people leaving

Lying about "regaining sovereignty" when leaving means handing much control over trade to the US and China

Lying about future border controls between the UK, Northern Ireland and the Republic

Lying about the future numbers of nurses and new hospitals

Lying about Corbyn's character, that he's an unreconstructed Marxist, that he hates Jews, that he's the friend of terrorists, etc. (I'll stop there...)

If you cynically lie to the electorate you are subverting democracy by trying to give people (who are largely gullible and politically naive) false choices at the election. The downright lies I've listed, and there were plenty of others, are not the same thing at all as putting your best foot forward and indulging in a bit of spin. I witnessed "news"papers propagating these lies time and time again and I witnessed BBC interviewers routinely failing to pull up Tories when they were lying. Lying with impunity is a very worrying development in western politics and is the one thing that will ultimately see off democracy altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:50 AM

Just cant help getting it wrong

You will be needing more than workout tools to sort out the worn out tool that is Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:03 AM

The rest of the verse quite apt to

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools
Or see the things you've give your life to broken
And stoop to build them up with work out tools

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:32 AM

There were plenty of overlapping causes of the loss of Labour seats, some to do with internal factors and some external. The external ones include the way the LibDems led to a split vote and that the vagaries of first past the post can turn a relatively small change in percentage vote into a large difference in the number of seats. We usually look at that in terms of how difficult it is for small parties to gain seats, but it is also true with the battle between larger parties. It is true elsewhere as well - the percentage/number of voters change in the US is usually quite small, but gives big swings in the governing parties.

But that these external factors exist does not diminish the importance of the internal ones. Undoubtedly one was that strong Remainers often thought that Labour was secretly a Leave party (and the LibDems hammered that Labour was not a party of Remain, for example). At the same time, strong Leavers thought it was secretly a remain party.   But that is not the whole story either. There will be plenty of arguments go on inside the party, and as I said somewhere, I don't mind if this takes a year, because clarity at the end is so important, and even if everyone were united now, the 80 majority can overrule them.

Also important is the 'Get Brexit Done' mantra. One of the less observed effects of that is that it releases Labour from its attempt to ride two horses. Not entirely, but to a large extent. Arguments for or against some aspect of leaving are likely to be less inflammatory, for example.

It is also clear that the PM wants to try to keep as many of the 'red wall' wards voting Tory as possible. I suspect that will give them benefits that they would not have got with a narrow Tory win, and very likely not with a Labour win either. A focus on local buses for example - always popular with Boris! - will have a more immediate and beneficial impact than some of the more generic policies. Also, the Queen's Speech will reportedly contain references to a bill to protect worker's rights,.I think that might not have been there at all without the red wall wards voting in numbers.


Quoting a couplet from 'If' again:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 04:11 AM

More from the Guardian the mouthpiece of the leftie hive mind:
Corbyn, antisemitism and Brexit: Labour MPs on why they lost

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/17/corbyn-antisemitism-and-brexit-labour-mps-on-why-they-lost
Well bless my little cotton socks! This is a narrative that runs counter to everything the lefty extremists were posting on here!

Worzel gummidge, antisemitism and a kama sutra brexit policy. How could it have possibly gone wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 03:41 AM

Typical leftie responses here. They simply cannot accept their insane policies directly caused their defeat. Perhaps they should take up navel gazing,   it might provide enlightenment. For as long as they try to blame external causes for their massacre they will remain in the wilderness and shrivel and die. We no longer need pay the slightest bit of attention to their whiny waffling. The electorate raised two fingers to the lefties. Payback for continuously insulting them. You would have thought those stunning tactics by the democrats that Elected Trump would have led to a few lessons learnt, but obviously not.(call people deplorable and they will say kiss my arse and vote elsewhere)
When are you going to accept your useless party lost the election all on their ownsome. When the labour heartlands voted tory to avoid putting corbyn in power it surely cannot be so hard a stretch to figure out why?
But as you are all taking your lead from the guardian the hive mind of ideology takes over and all sense goes for a hike down the road.
The only statisticto take away here is that recited by theGuardian in a rare moment of lucidity:
Boris Johnson will remain prime minister with a comfortable majority, as numerous Labour heartland seats fall to the Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 10:12 PM

Steve:

You did not respond to my identifying the origin of the quote of Mr. Corbyn being "an unreconstructed Marxist". My following response was that true or not, this was a matter of perception. The fact that the vote was split may be everything you say; but, unfortunately, perceived splits are a fact of life in and out of Democracy. Without Ralph Nader and the Green Party Gore would have likely won the U.S. 2000 election. Without Bernie Sanders, Hilary might have won in 2016. Or, without Hilary, Bernie might have won in 2016. Without Harald Hardrada, Harold Godwinson might have held his own at the Battle of Hastings.

Politics is sometimes fair, usually not. Democratic politics is a subset of politics, hence subject to these cruel rules.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 09:51 PM

Steve - I suggested earlier it's time the liberals called it quits;
individual members and supporters honestly deciding whether to transfer to either labour of tory for future elections...

But around here, all combined Labour and liberal votes were still nowhere sufficient to beat the tories...

Maybe because old tories continue to flock from all over the the rest of the UK,
to move to the south west to retire and fester...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:58 PM

From Simon Jenkins in the Guardian, a loose cannon of a man but who is occasionally capable of hitting the nail on the head (the bold bits are mine):

"No, it was not just Jeremy Corbyn. Last week’s crushing defeat of the left was also caused by the Liberal Democrat party splitting the vote. Yet again, by offering itself as the vote launderer of British liberalism, it has served as merely the fellow traveller of British Conservatism. Boris Johnson owes it a huge debt of gratitude.

Misreading election results – largely so as to gloat or spread blame – is the traditional folly of post-election analysts. Boris Johnson won the election with a thumping parliamentary victory, but the operative word is parliamentary. His 43.6% of the vote was ahead of Theresa May’s only by 1.2 percentage points, and dozens of his MPs were elected with less than 50% of the vote. Most of these – such as Kensington, Keighley, Bridgend and Chingford – were seats that Labour would have won had there been no Lib Dem presence.



As for the election being a “second referendum” on Brexit, anti-Brexit or second referendum parties won more votes than did Johnson, even assuming all Tories were pro-Brexit. Yes, leave voters appear to have swarmed to the Conservatives, notably in the north, and are thus probably short-term. But the Lib Dem vote soared by 1.3m or 4.1 percentage points, while Corbyn’s fell by 2.6m. Johnson’s rose by only 304,000.The reality is that the left-of-centre vote was calamitously split. Polling during the campaign saw Labour surge only when the Lib Dems appeared to collapse."

Don't be complacent now, Boris...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:33 PM

racism knows no ethnic limits. One common response of racism is reverse racism.

Note:
reverse racism = racism.

And I'd rather be dealing with some frank racism than the covering blandishments of deniers.

I'll never forget the first major network documentary about Black Muslims: The Hate That Hate Produced

Whatever the ethnicity or color, we are subject to our own background 'radiation'.

It's part of being human.

Outstanding interview on Fresh Air yesterday with Charlize Theron. She has just made a movie about the sexual harassment scandal within FOX news, related her own experience with a famous HWood director, her own family experience and her life as a young girl growing up in Apartheid South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:44 PM

There's racists.. and then there's racists...

It's a better world if no racism exists,
but a 01%, or even a 10% racist might be more tolerable than a 100% racist...???

Zero tolerance for racists is a fine idea,
but it really causes so much animosity and confrontation
in a community of diverse folks
who for the most part are fairly decent and friendly human beings...

.. and intolerance of any kind is somewhat rather shit...

Personally I cut a little slack for older less enlightened folks.

I have to with my working class council estate family...
My old mum is half East European Jewish,
and even she unconsciously says the most awkward things
in errrrmmm.. old fashioned terms about her heritage,
that a sharp eared young anti racist student
might take automatic offence at, and kick off about...

That almost happened last time I took her out shopping...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:18 PM

Bet you were a bundle of laughs. The Rosa Parks of the staffroom.

Oh great, Al - now you're making light of Rosa Parks.

Nixon:"I am not a crook"

AL: "I am not a racist"

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 01:16 PM

Interesting how many reports are hailing the Boris victory as "A kick against the establishment".

For years we used to tell ourselves that we were fighting "the establishment" when we talked politics.

I've understood events far more since realising that "the establishment" has fallen out with itself big time.

In the red (the colour doesn't matter) you have the globalists - the Blairs, Clintons, the EU Commission, Macron, Merkel, the Guardian, George Soros, the Democratic Party, CNN etc

and in the blue corner those in favour of national governments - Putin, Farage, Murdoch, Trump, Fox News, the Daily Mail, Le Pen, Boris, the late Tony Benn.

Those who think there is something left wing about the EU are equally mistaken as those who think Trump and Boris are not part of the establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:45 PM

Anything to say about the last post, Al, or do your criticisms not apply to your right wing friends?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:40 PM

Guido is the UK branch/franchise of the propaganda network...

The internet won this election...

Waste of time reading guido's analysis of why Compo received such a drubbing then, but I will supply it anyway, secure in the knowledge the latte slurping remainiacs here will not read it, much less understand it.
This will ensure that the biggest sea change in British politics ever will make zero impact on your constrained thinking.
The hive mind driven by ideology is proven to be incapable of any rational thought. This will ensure labour is sidelined for generations to come. The labourite are looking everywhere outside the bubble for factors to explain their horrific defeat. They cannot accept rubbisk policies and a rubbish front bench have utterly destroyed both the party and their credibility.

https://order-order.com/2019/12/17/post-election-polling-roundup-not-good-labour/

Warbling that the working class can kiss my ass was not a votewinner outside the metropolitan labour luvvie heartland.
The twitter witter rebounded wonderfully beyond all expectation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:21 PM

BTW, Al.

Calling Boris an albino piglet won't do it.

I know it won't. I know it is trite and childish but it was a sobriquet coined by his peers and refers to his ability to wriggle out of the shit. Do you have nothing to say about referring to Corbyn as Compo and magic grandad or referring to Dianne Abbot as abbotopamus? Or are your new found friends beyond such reproach?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 11:36 AM

One area Labour could concentrate on is the area of lobbying MPs. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents not outside interests. The "Monster Raving Loony Party" had the policy that MPs who accept donations from lobbyists should be forced to wear logos like footballers - Monsanto? Lockheed? Not such a bad idea!

Trouble is many of the Labour ones have their snouts in these various troughs as well. Declaring an interest just doesn't seem to work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM

Al, who is this 'you' character to keep talking to? I'm confused.
If you referred to your target by name, I think we would all have a better idea about what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 02:17 AM

Robomatic. Being East European or being black is an accident of birth. Being a Tory or being a racist is a lifestyle choice. It is perfectly acceptable to berate people for their lifestyle choices but not for being born in the "wrong" place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:57 PM

We've traded barbs in the past. And I'm no saint. But I HAVE seen "Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood." recently.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:12 PM

That's giving the game away, robe. If they ptactised that sort of divergent thinking they wouldn't be so quick and self justifying with their abuse. Its not nice calling people names like racist. Given the dark history of our country, it takes a certain sort of ignorant priggishness to set yourself up as the arbiter in these matters.

Also giving the game away is the fact that if you had worked multiracial classrooms you wouldn't actually know when racial and cultural abuse was being used half the time.

Bet you were a bundle of laughs. The Rosa Parks of the staffroom.

(pause for an assembly featuring We shall Overcome and Kumbaya)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 08:40 PM

Steve:

What if someone besides you had substituted the word _______ for the word Tory and posted the identical posts you have recently posted.

Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:24 PM

Well my mum's side are all from Salford and Prestwich, an area with one of the biggest Jewish populations in the UK, and my grandad worked on Salford docks all his life. For decades my mum and dad lived on the Bury/Radcliffe border, an area which has huge numbers of Muslims. I taught in Poplar in the seventies when there were large numbers of second-generation West Indian kids in my school (40% of the school population). I then moved to a school in Walthamstow in which over a third of the kids were from Muslim families.

So this...

"If you are lucky enough to live somewhere unaffected by the trouble, keep your gob shut on the subject.

"The utter bullshit YOU and STEVE are spouting is the Hampstead Corbyn line that was so far out of touch with reality that we have Boris in Number 10.

You have no shame about the utter rubbish you talk, and the situation you have created. I worked in multi racial schools and gigged and recorded all over Europe...."

...is just about the most unreal bloody claptrap I've heard in years. I might live in Cornwall now (by far the most xenophobic and racist area I've ever lived in, despite the lovely scenery, as it happens, and I do fight back) but I've seen just as much, if not more, real life as you, Al, and I resent being tarred with the lame old metropolitan elite brush. By the way, it's not Hampstead but I won't dwell. And I'm rather proud of the fact that, in all my years in schools, I never once let a racist remark pass unchallenged in any of my classrooms. The instinct lives on, which is why I'm objecting now to some of your comments. I don't think you can say that of yourself, considering the occasional detestable comment you relieve yourself of in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:21 PM

I don't think they are racist, Al. I don't know them. I don't know you either but you have now made at least 2 racist statements. East Europeans are criminals and scroungers. What am I supposed to make of that? Do you really believe it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:05 PM

For me, Corbyn appealed more than his competitors for Labour Leadership..

But I've said right from the outstart I thought he was too old
for the amount of time needed to take the party to an election win,
and serve at least one term as PM..
And he carried far too much historic baggage which the tory media would seize on
to exploit to discredit & destroy him..

Sadly, I was right...

All along I've hoped he's been mentoring good potential successors...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM

The programme anout Lincolnshire Police is on tonight. mostly they try to keep it light. But apparently the main drug gangs working round Boston Eastern European in origin. It wasn't a point that was laboured - just commented on in passing, when the turf wars had spilled out onto the street.

Perhaps you'd like to explain the cultural advantages of having your kids sold heroin by Eastern Ruropeans as opposed to home grown scum.

You're the one that's in denial Dave. . no ones against people coming here and behaving themselves.

the people had some of the lowest wages in the country as it was. Seasonal people used to come over from Ireland and pick flowers and potatoes and beans when it was required. The town of bposton used to love playing host to the sailors from many countries but maiknly from the continent whose ships used to use the docks. Frequently they sorted out their quarrrels with knives buteven then - it was reckoned to be their own business. This was a very poor - but very tolerant society. Now its not.

You think its cos they're racist. I know these peole and I can tell that's not thecase. Abuse from outsiders doesn't help. Corbyn was just like a loudmouth on the edge of the crowd trying to work people up. that's why he lost. people sussed him out. don't be like him.

he's part of the problem - not the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:43 PM

... and the change in the position on Brexit was a factor. The choice between a Labour negotiated deal and remain made many people say "but we've already voted on that and decided we don't want to remain."

The leave with no deal option was a bit like the nuclear deterrent - neither side wanted it but remove it and you immediately remove your bargaining clout - if the EU Commission realised that remain was an option on a second referendum they would hardly be likely to offer any kind of acceptable deal.

What Corbyn did achieve was that he energised a lot of young people to take an interest in politics and the Labour Party had the biggest membership of any political party in Europe. Unfortunately with youth goes blind idealism -we were all there at one time weren't we after all? It also meant that the Momentum influence was mostly in favour of remain as opposed to the traditional heartlands.

I just hope that these young people won't sink back into apathy.

Maybe if Johnson gets Brexit done this won't be an issue to divide Labour any more and a slow recovery can take place:-

I don't agree with everything this man says but worth a listen:-

Jonathan Pie - Why Labour Lost.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:34 PM

I have sat back on much of the recent "discussion" here but I have to ask you Big Al if, as you say, you are a Labour supporter why do most of your posts sound like they are coming from a Conservative (with a big C) supporter.

Quite honestly they sound like posts I would expect from the right, or extreme right, wingers posting on here.

I would go one step step further and suggest if you consider yourself to be vaguely left wing then I'm a Dutchman.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 03:46 PM

Labour suffered a real blow when they lost Scotland - this was on Ed Miliband's watch.

Theresa May had the charisma of a cucumber which allowed Corbyn to make inroads in the previous election.

Boris saw an opportunity and went for it - he purged his own party of many of the remainers and this was interpreted as strong leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:29 PM

SPB - if there's any confusion in my writing,
I didn't mean or accuse Labour of losing her postal vote form...?????

Her local council blamed Royal mail...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:20 PM

Nothing to do with self-rightousness. I found the generalistic comment offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 01:07 PM

The administration and handling of postal ballots has nothing to to with political parties. We are not allowed to handle postal ballots in any way whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:32 PM

Rain Dog - My mum is 87, I applied for her postal vote
for what is realistically probably her last general election.
The form never arrived, lost in the mail.
The replacement arrived a day after the closing date.
A proxy vote alternative was too impractical for our family circumstances.

So Labour lost her one vote.

However she's been voting Labour since the early 1950s,
and they've never won anything anyway round here in the South West.
Our votes never make any difference,
even when in the past we resorted to voting tactically for the treacherous Liberals...


So now the North can join us in the wasted vote club.
But hopefully not for too many years...

I never expected Labour to win this election.
I hoped they might...
But didn't expect them to do this badly.

Let's hope the party learns from it's disastrous performance...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:26 PM

Look, it really is dead simple. Al says East Europeans cause more crime and immigrants are here for council houses, free health care and free education. Nothing to do with being right of left, brexit or remain. As the son of an east European immigrant I should find this offensive but I don't. I'm thick skinned. What I do know though is that there is no evidence that East Europeans are any more lawless than anyone else and that immigrants are, in the main, net contributors and not scroungers. If you think that by pointing this out I am being insulting or self righteous then we may as well just let bigotry win.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:13 PM

In response to peteaberdeen's post

There is quite a lot of sweeping generalisations on here about most things. Having just googled the information, would I be right in saying that it appears there are only about 1 million or so voters who belong to any political party? The majority of people who vote are not members of any party.

I would agree with the statement 'no voters' can be categorised so narrowly. Unfortunately some of the people who contribute here seem to think that they voted correctly and anyone who voted differently was stupid/deluded/brainwashed etc

I would also ask if people genuinely thought Labour could win the election? The best I thought could happen is that it would be a hung parliament with all that would entail for the next 5 years.

I live in the South East where people voted approx. 2 to 1 in favour of leaving in the referendum. In my constituency, Dover, the Tories increased their majority. I voted Labour but cannot say I was surprised by the fact that they did not win the seat.

The one surprise for me was the fact that Labour retained Canterbury, in fact they increased their majority slightly.

Now we have to wait and see what the coming years bring us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM

Pete - My sweeping generalisation is that most of the anti Labour Party abuse on the internet
originates from outside the UK,
and is spread by easily-lead-by-peer-pressure narrow minded conformists,
who parrot key words and phrases
more associated with 13 year old American gamer boys...

Guido is the UK branch/franchise of the propaganda network...

The internet won this election...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:58 AM

My old dad, god bless ‘im, used to say that the only thing more unpleasant than a sore loser is a sore winner. I’m starting to understand that, judging by the evidence on this forum, he knew what he was talking about, did the old lad.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:45 AM

there is quite a lot of sweeping generalisations on here about who labour party members are - i wonder how many of our critics actually know any labour supporters? or labour voters? any lefty friends? lots of guys who you have lively discussions in the pub with? or do your opinions of us come from the media and your computer screen? no people can be categorised so narrowly. and what would be the purpose of doing it anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: bobad
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:44 AM

Right on Al, it's easy to see why Labour lost judging from what we see from its supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:19 AM

Pretty obvious that you are in denial about making racist remarks, Al. You say that East Europeans cause crime and immigrants in general are just here for what they can get free. Those are both unequivocally racist statements. You have no justification for them so you go into attack mode.

I used to think that you just made poorly chosen comments. I am not so sure now. Maybe you would be happier in this band from Pheonix nights?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 11:05 AM

Yes what my friends tell me every day about the town that had the highest number of people voting for leave in the country.

If you are lucky enough to live somewhere unaffected by the trouble, keep your gob shut on the subject.

The utter bullshit YOU and STEVE are spouting is the Hampstead Corbyn line that was so far out of touch with reality that we have Boris in Number 10.

You have no shame about the utter rubbish you talk, and the situation you have created. I worked in multi racial schools and gigged and recorded all over Europe. If there was medal for being self righteous idiots who have contributed to the downfall of the labour party - buggers like you with your insults and sneering would take the gold.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 10:41 AM

Michael Gove, introducing the Prime Minister on Friday morning, looked Britain’s remaining Labour voters in the eye, and told them “Never again must our Jewish citizens live in fear.” Never again.

“It is a new dawn, is it not?” Boris in victory couldn’t help himself, regurgitating the 1997 remark with which Blair proclaimed his own era. Laughing at Blair’s messianic pretension, throwing it back in Labour’s shocked, defeated faces.

Boris has a talent, shared by no other politician, of being able simultaneously to poke fun at his overblown Churchillian rhetorical style, without undermining the seriousness of its message. It’s (one reason) why he drives his opponents to insanity – did you see that sliver of malice, Alastair Campbell, snarling about “Johnson” on Friday morning? He hates that we think of the PM as “Boris”. Snarl away, Campbell, for all the good it’ll do your shrivelled, impoverished politics. Snarl right off, in fact, and close the door behind you.

Because this was a victory, above everything, for decency; a rejection of every strain – not just the Corbynite variety – of the linguistic and psychological thuggery that Labour has dressed up as virtue and forced down your throat since 1997. The political map is redrawn, and the Tory Party entirely re-invented. The consequences of that reinvention deserve many articles – it is literally a new party. But first let’s pick over the brittle, dusty bones of a dead one.

The Labour Party (not “The Left”) is history. Even when Blair reduced the Conservatives to their heartlands in the 1990s, the party still had heartlands. Labour, in 2019, doesn’t. It’s a collective noun for student Marxists, trades union hard-men, and spiteful anti-Semites. That’s not a political party: it’s a pathogen. A pathogen with nowhere to replicate.

The dramatic irony! Labour finally achieved its ambition to empower and politicise the working-class:Joe average walked 15 miles on Thursday, but he’d have crawled over broken glass to keep people like Corbyn from winning seats like Barnet
(from Unherd.com

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 10:25 AM

So no real justification for your comments about East Eurpeans being criminals or freeloaders then, Al. Just a rant about "what you see everyday". Really? You see lawlessness brought to communities by East Europeans and immigrants just out to get free health and education every day? Ye gods. When I lived in Salford and worked in Bradford, both areas with massive numbers of immigrants, I don't think I saw any such gangs of Lithuanian thugs or Polish scroungers roaming the streets. Must be pretty bad where you live. I'd come back North if I was you!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:31 AM

Flashman of the Fifth! or Bunter of the fourth?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:27 AM

I find it bizarre that the leftie shouties are screeching racist at the clever brexiteers when it is their own party under investigation for racism.
Cognitive dissonance? or merely abject stupidity?
Now all their leaders are rolling around fighting like alley cats.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkFGD5g4NeQ

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:25 AM

Yes, Al, your remark was racist. Not only that, you forgot that immigrants contribute hugely to our economy, and claim benefits far less than us "natives." Without those immigrants the NHS would collapse and my mum's care home would have to close down. As for Tories being in it for themselves, the difference is that Tories also believe in the devil taking the hindmost and that there is an underclass of undeserving, skiving poor. And 48% of Tory voters characterise themselves as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:19 AM

Predictable Raggy - like I say how bad did Labour have to be to lose to Flashman of the Fifth!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:03 AM

Ye gods, this didn't take very long. It would seem that all those tax cuts that the nice Mr Johnson promised us may not see the light of day.


Tax plans face squeeze

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 09:03 AM

We don't know that, bobad. Flint accused Thornberry of saying that. Thornberry is denying it and it looks likely it could go to court to fight over the ins and outs.