Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:13 AM

" I opened a thread on Jim Carroll was that he might use it to post his anecdotes and opinions, "
No you didn't - your past hostility from the first time we encountered each other has made it clear that out opinions of each other coincide - your addressing me as "Carroll" confirms that - fine by me, I would feel uncomfortable otherwise
It is unfortunate that you have managed to involve at least one other that I feel I need to respect, even thought we haven't always seen eye-to-eye on some things
So far, your opening that thread has only managed to backfire in your face - you have done what needed to be done in showing why you are here
Thanks for that, at least
Now let's all move on please
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 09:03 AM

"NB Simple definition of semiotics: "

thank you for that... how considerate...

I wasted too many years of my life on that academicese bollocks back in the 1980s...

It is part useful analytical tool,
but from my painful experience up to post grad level,
a tool misused by elitist ego tripping middle class social inadequates...

I have now had my day spoiled waking up to the memory of my worst lecturers,
and their favourite reading list text books which we were forced to waste huge chunks of our grant on...

One in particular, was a spiteful sociopathic piece of work,
who enjoyed her power over the fate of young impresssionable and vulnerable students...

..and she had the gall to self identify as a marxist progressive...

She was a nastier more vindictive human being than any of the tory inclined academic staff...

So thanks for the reminder...

Pseud, I don't trust you are what you want us to think you are...?????

.. and if you are.. I'm not impressed by your over convoluted, poorly communicated writing...

So things aint changed too much then in the academic world since the 1980s...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:30 AM

Yes Jim I'll move on.
Psuedo's answer if you can all it that, has shown me what we're dealing with.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:20 AM

'Mudcat actually warn you against putting private information on line. '

But you feel it alright to put someone else's information online despite the person in question's objections against the thread in question?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:19 AM

Nice to have you back - hope the singing went well
"To be blunt Pseudo who the hell are you? "
You really are wasting your time - people like this can't operate in daylight - haven't ever read Bram Stoker ?
If he had done anything worthwhile he would be wearing it like a badge -
He's been asked this before and has demurred
I've never been sure of the anonymity policy of a forum like this - I only know of one other individual on who uses a mask to inflict ridicule and abuse on others - most posters who use a 'funny name' are quite happy to discuss their own involvement in the subjects - those that refuse top place a huge question mark over their motives as far as I'm concerned
For the sake of this threadm, I really think we ned to open the curtains and let the daylight in
Let's move on please - all of you
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:08 AM

Though I will say that one thing I hoped for when I opened a thread on Jim Carroll was that he might use it to post his anecdotes and opinions, as his arrival on this one caused sinking feelings and quickly affected the tone, adversely in my opinion. I regret to comment on this, as I had intended to avoid it, but I am with those who made comment to that effect.

I gave an account of myself above, and do not propose to repeat it here, if that is reasonable?

It is perfectly acceptable to post posts and start threads anonymously on Mudcat, though they prefer it is one uses a consistent name, which I am doing. Mudcat actually warn you against putting private information on line. It is common sense, especially given the venomous nature of some of the discussions on other threads.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:07 AM

"If Pardon's farmhouse (and I am sure on the basis of what he says himself in one interview that it was originally a farmhouse as opposed to a 'farm labourer's house/cottage) was not Parr's Farm, then the question arises of why the people who made the film chose to insert footage of a sign giving that name "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B95JAQe1Wtc&feature=youtu.be&t=70


It says "Parrs Farm Cottage".

The map shows it to be next to a farm. Lots of farms have cottages attached. They were for workers or extended family. It is still possible to get planning permission for an "Agricultural Dwelling" on land that could otherwise not be developed for housing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:03 AM

Nick Dow: I have made an effort to thank all those who have made constructive contributions to this thread. If I missed anybody I apologise.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 08:02 AM

Regarding the relationship between Pardon's melodeon playing and the tunes he used for songs: I would be interested to see any data on this originating with Pardon himself. What I can find appears to be conjectural.

Nick Dow. What I have and have not done is irrelevant. And swearing at people does your cause nothing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:50 AM

1
Regarding Parr's Farm, Hall Lane, Knapton, the book on Knapton (dated 2011) states that at the time of writing Willie Puncher (b 1937) who was brought up there, farmed there. The family still do, you can google it.

It also states that Roger Dixon's uncles George and Hubert, Aunt Ruth and Lucy lived for a time at the farm. I cannot find a date for this, but it says that George farmed there.

If Pardon's farmhouse (and I am sure on the basis of what he says himself in one interview that it was originally a farmhouse as opposed to a 'farm labourer's house/cottage) was not Parr's Farm, then the question arises of why the people who made the film chose to insert footage of a sign giving that name. And on that, one person's analysis of the semiotics and/or the intentions of the film maker (who presumably had his own biases) is as good as another.

NB Simple definition of semiotics: Semiotics is the study of signs and symbols, in particular as they communicate things spoken and unspoken. Common signs that are understood globally include traffic signs, emojis, and corporate logos. Written and spoken language is full of semiotics in the form of intertextuality, puns, metaphors, and references to cultural commonalities.

2
The book includes some quotation from Roger Dixon (and draws heavily on first person accounts by people who lived in or were connected to Knapton in the 20th century). The Gees (ie Walter's mother's family, the one Dixon had links to), according to Roger Dixon, would tell 'all sorts of tales about music-making in the past'. Dixon does not make a judgment about how far such 'tales' were an accurate reflection of history. But, and this interests me, the example Dixon gives is not one about 'a tradition' or 'the tradition' is it might be defined by one of the sub-groups on Mudcat but one about the church. 'One [tale] was the family formed the church band in the reign of William IV in the 1830s, before the Robinson family provided the first harmonium in the church'. For an account of music in churches, I seem to recall that Vic Gammon has a piece on it.

The name 'Cook Gee' (as in some of Walter's ancestors, including his Uncle Billy, seems to have first arisen early in the 19th century when a Cook married a Gee, and to have spread quite widely thereafter. There may have been more than one marriage between a Cook and a Gee I suppose.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:29 AM

Pseudonymous. In view of the separate thread you have posted about Jim Carroll, I personally think it's time to ask for some credentials if you don't mind.
I have no right to speak for anybody but myself, however to put my mind at rest please could you answer the following.

Could you tell me where your interest in Folk Music began Are you a singer or dancer or regular member of an audience.

Secondly as you obviously have some academic interest and training, and you have received the time and knowledge of some of the leading Folklorists in the UK on this thread, and not to mention the lesser names such as myself, where can we find your contributions? May we read your articles in the Journal, or in any Magazine? Have you even contributed a CD review?

Thirdly have you undertaken any field work, or even made recordings in a Folk Club?

To be blunt Pseudo who the hell are you? Why do you find it necessary to use a handle with the word Pseud attached to it. What is your real name?
I believe these to be valid questions, and should be easy for you to answer in one or two lines.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:23 AM

"Jim, I thought it started out that way."
It did indeed, but I thought we'd moved on from that nastiness - in fact I know we did
Walter didn't know how far any of them went back - none of us do, but he certainly felt some of them did, which was a tribute to their authenticity, in my opinion
As I have said, he was a prodigious and catholic reader - his choice of books included historical writers like Charles Reide, Harrison Aisworth and some of the classics I have mentioned
His take on history may not be necessarily accurate but it was certainly vivid and he used it to inform his songs
Walter associated his songs - tunes and all - to their historical subject matter - he had more instinctive feel about his songs than any unread folkie I have met - those who choose to educate themselves are a different matter altogether - that's what make them better singers IMO

We once asked non-literate Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, what his oldest song one - he replied, without hesitation, 'The Blind Beggar', a song entered in the Stationers Register some time in the 17th century   
We never told him that, but he mght well have picked it up from the sign hanging outside the notorious pub of that name on Whitechapel Road, around the corner from the site he was camped on
We asked blind Traveller Mary Delaney the samwe question - back like a shot came the answer, 'Buried in Kilkenny' - (Lord Randal)   
The first Traveller we recorded, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors introduced his version of Edward (@What Put the Blood') like this:

“I’d say the song, myself, goes back to.... depicts Cain and Abel in the Bible and where Our Lord said to Cain.... I think this is where the Travellers Curse come from too, because Our Lord says to Cain, “Cain”, says Our Lord, “you have slain your brother, and for this”, says Our Lord, says he, “and for this, be a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth”.
“Not so Lord” says he, “this punishment is too severe, and whoever finds me”, says he, “will slay me, “says he “or harass me”.
“Not so”, says Our Lord, says he, “whoever finds Cain and punishes or slains (sic) Cain, I will punish them sevenfold”.
And I think this is where the Travellers curse come from.
Anyway, the song depicts this, this er....
1 call it Cain and Abel anyway; there never was a name for the song, but that what I call it, you know, the depiction of Cain and Abel.”

One of the most common descriptions we got from the singers we met was "that song is true"
It didn't mean they necessarily believed that the events actually happened - rather, they felt that they might wel have - they felt authentic

As far as Walter's tunes are concerned, I go along with Mike Yates's idea that it is directly related to his memorising them on a melodeon, they certainly were unique
I often think some 'scholars' often over-complicate something that is blindingly simple
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:11 AM

The point on a tendency to over-generalise about all singers within what is called in another piece of question begging rhetoric 'the tradition' (note use of definite article, not the indefinite) on the basis of inferences drawn from encounters with Walter Pardon was made on Muscat by The Sandman. The responses to his reasonable point were predictable in their tone and content.

I forgot to say thank you to a few people who had made contributions to the discussion.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:58 AM

And if people choose to interpret this as a personal 'attack' or whatever, then that is really as far as I am concerned their decision. Whatever!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:57 AM

Obviously he could tell from the content of some songs that they were old. It seems clear from some of the interviews that this is what he is doing. So we do know this.

Plus, the man had been surrounded by and had interacted with people from the Revival: one cannot credibly argue that any knowledge he had was 'inherited' as part of the tradition.

But once again, we risk over-generalisation on the basis of a few selected extracts from what may or may not have been a vast bank of raw data.

Which brings us onto methodological considerations (ie questions about the best ways to go about carrying out research into questions like 'what did Walter Pardon know about his songs, and where did he get that knowledge from'.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:47 AM

Jag:

1 I had had a similar thought about the idea that older songs were 'modal' ie basically minor as opposed to major as indicated by them ending on a pull on a two row diatonic melodeon.

2 This appears to have moved on from undermining the validity of the singers reputations as 'tradition bearers' to attacking the work carried out by 'revival' collectors … I thought it started out that way.

I might quibble about the emotive force of some of the language used here, especially 'undermine' and 'attach', but basically you are correct.

The aid was to critically examine the way Pardon and his work were presented, and the difficulty (which I had found, as an alert reader) in distinguishing fact, myth, opinion and bias in the various accounts of him which I had found. Including in this is a 'critical' (ie less than slavish adherence) examination of the various and contested ideologies underpinning the work on and about him.

I am not apologetic about this: we can be assured that in the future people will take precisely this approach to the output of the 2nd revival: in fact time has moved on to the point where is it seen as 'history'.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:21 AM

This appears to have moved on from undermining the validity of the singers reputations as 'tradition bearers' to attacking the work carried out by 'revival' collectors (Jim Carrol).

Jim, I thought it started out that way.

Until someone tells us how Walter knew that some songs went back to the 18th century so that he could then notice that the tunes were different repeating his view leaves a big gap in the logic - it is a circular argument.

But none of the knowlegable writers have disagreed with the general idea or what he says about the structure of the later songs. We don't know how he 'knew' that some songs were old, but we do know how he knew that many were more recent.

I don't think the possibility that a newer ballad with an old-sounding tune could slip past Walter (or the folklorists) devalues Walter's observations. But I am skeptical when Walter's view is used by someone else as evidence in another debate especially when his own caveat "nine time out of ten" is not included.

One of the English folksong book writers (not sure if it was Sharp or Lloyd) did a tally of the modes used in songs. The results show that although clasically trained musicians make a fuss about the unfamilar- to-them modes a lot of the old tunes are actually in a major key. The medieval churchy types didn't call it 'modus lascivous' for nothing.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 05:47 AM

Pseudonymous. Walter's own words about visualising the stories of songs and the books he read are in one of the audio interviews. His tone of voice, and the fact that he includes mention of books that he read, suggests to me that it was what he did, rather than something he was led into by an interviewer asking about performance. I am not going to go back and find it to type it out.

His own words.

I don't see how the Roly Brown review of the CD (it is in the 'reviews' not the 'articles' section of mustrad) contributes anything to a 'research' discussion. The only new information is some observations about other versions of a few of the songs but that could be got by following the information in the booklet. In fact, I think that by not adding anything it does its job a being a review better.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 05:26 AM

This began seriously with the publication of David Harker's somewhat depressingly distasteful 'Fakelore', a sort of 'assassin's handbook'

I've never been part of the academic side of folk song - I found it far too Ivory Towerish and self absorbed - a club that had evolved its own language to keep outsiders out.

I could not agree more! I've thought this way for decades.
Nick

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:57 AM

Matthew Ord at Cecil Sharp House

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEwCUeJR7vQ

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:55 AM

It seems to me that Matthew Ord has more musicality in his finger than some people who opine that he has probably never sung a song have in their ….

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=matthew+ord&&view=detail&mid=2BD089741184911661872BD08974118491166187&&FORM=VDRVRV

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM

Sorry that last was in response to jag.

We have so little of the raw data on which conclusions about Pardon are based easily available that it isn't always easy to decide what Pardon was referring to. Some of his comments appear to have been related to what he thought while he was singing in public, a task he seems to have found somewhat nerve-wracking as he says something to the effect that he likes a microphone to hide behind. Selected extracts from one or more interviews have been posted on Mudcat threads, if you wanted to judge for yourself … I think it is on a thread entitled 'Traditional Singers Talking'.

In a very early interview, Pardon says that he wrote lyrics down in the presence of Billy. He explains that Billy could not write them down as he had injured his hand. This is in one of the British Library archive interviews available online. However, if Carroll and Mackenzie had to help him to learn ones he thought he had forgotten (and we don't appear to know how many these comprised, or which ones), perhaps he lost or destroyed the notes he made at the time of learning? As so often, precise knowledge about Pardon is so difficult to come by.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:30 AM

I don't know. Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie have claimed that they helped him to remember songs that he thought he had forgotten. So it isn't as if he held all of them whole in memory over all the years he did not sing with others.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:29 AM

Thank you for your useful and relevant contribution, Jim.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 04:10 AM

This appears to have moved on from undermining the validity of the singers reputations as 'tradition bearers' to attacking the work carried out by 'revival' collectors
I have noted in other arguments that the trend in today's research scholarship has become largely based on tearing down the work of pioneers and replacing it with modern paper-chasing
This began seriously with the publication of David Harker's somewhat depressingly distasteful 'Fakelore', a sort of 'assassin's handbook' which was dedicated to 'taking out' all the earlier collectors by taking their work out of the contexts of the times they were living in - giants like Child, Sharp, Kidson, Broadwood.... whose work was based on face-to-face conversations with the singers
The attention now seems to have switched to modern collectors like Reg Hall, Mike Yates, Roy Palmer, Bob Thomson and Pat and I (must remember to get the locks changed)

I've never been part of the academic side of folk song - I found it far too Ivory Towerish and self absorbed - a club that had evolved its own language to keep outsiders out
I have always believed that one of the greatest gaps in our knowledge of folk music and song is the absence of the voices of the singers and musicians down the ages who gave us our songs and music - and a lifetime of enjoyment
The revivalist collectors have, to some small degree, managed to fill part of that gap   
Reg Hall, melodeon, fiddle and piano player and dancer, spent many, many hours talking to the older generations of folk musicians and singers in London and elsewhere - he even helped set up a magazine based on what they had to say, 'Ethnic'
Mike Yates took the songs and voices of Travellers, Mary Ann Haynes, Jasper and Levi Smith, Joe Jones and great East Anglian, Walter Pardon.... and made their voices accessible to a wider audience
Roy Palmer, a member of the Grey Cock Folk Club, spent hours talking to Cecila Costello and George Dunn
One of the great experts on broadsides, a giant we lost to the US, Bob Thomson, caught Harry Cox's last years on tape and interviewed singers from North Norfolk and Cambridgeshire adding vastly to our knowledge and enjoyment of folk song - Bob first appeared on the scene singing folk songs with his friend, Mike Herring

I don't know if Newcastle University based Matthew Ord ever met a traditional singer or ever sang a song, but somehow I doubt it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 03:56 AM

Does what Walter says in the interview about visualising the stories in the songs and novels helps explain his good memory for them?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 03:54 AM

Psuedonymous "I'm assuming that the former farmhouse Pardon lived in was, as the film hints, called Parr Farm. I may be incorrect here. Where does 'former farmhouse' come from? The film shows that it was called "Parrs Farm Cottage" Two people posting on this thread have said that it was formerly a smaller habitation. We can see on the film that it had been something different, maybe stone built.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 02:25 AM

Yes, it was the census records I was going off. There is also a family tree on ancestry.com done by a member of the Pardon family. You would think that with all these researchers, who knew Walter so well, one of them may have picked up on little inconsisties like different names for his mother!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:42 PM

Returning to Matthew Ord's piece: his title was 'Sound Recording in the British Folk Revival: ideology, discourse and practice 1950 to 1975.

Two of the people whose help he acknowledges feature in the 'discourse' relating to Walter Pardon: Bill Leader and Rod Stradling.


He makes the following statement at the outset, one which chimes with my thinking as I encountered the material that I did encounter and have refenced about Pardon (though his focus is mainly - but not exclusively - on the sound recordings, whereas I have looked at online discussions as well:

"The revival's recording practice took in a range of approaches, and contexts, including radio commentary, commercial studio productions and amateur field recordings. This thesis considers how these practices were mediated by revivalist beliefs and values, how recording was presented in revivalist discourse, and how its semiotic resources were incorporated into multimodal discourses about music, technology and traditional culture."

I hope that anybody who has read the opening piece will see why when I came across this piece, I found it so very interesting.

It would be interesting to discuss how far Ord's ideas apply to the material on Pardon that we have found so far. Maybe more on this later.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:36 PM

From Old Songs, New Discoveres – selected Papers from the 2018 Folk Song Conference
Jim Carroll
Joseph Taylor in Lincolnshire, from whom Percy Grainger noted ‘Brigg Fair’, also sang in his church choir, as well as at the music festival where Grainger first heard him, and had always had a keen interest in music. His granddaughter relates that he even called his dog Minim, because it had one spot on its back, saying, ‘he couldn’t be a crotchet, he has no stick, and anyhow he must have a musical name’.
That Taylor was musically self-aware was acknowledged by Grainger, albeit somewhat condescendingly: ‘He most intelligently realizes just what sort of songs collectors are after, distinguishes surprisingly between genuine traditional tunes and other ditties,and is, in every way, a marvel of helpfulness and kindliness.

Likewise, in Cumbria we find singers with wide and diverse repertoires choosing to sing only certain songs in particular contexts: ‘folk songs’ if they were requested, dialect songs at appropriate gatherings, hunting songs or songs on farming themes at hunt and shepherds’ meets, and so on. An example is John Collinson who, after winning the Kendal Folk Song Competition in 1905, was subsequently visited by both Percy Grainger and Anne Gilchrist, who also collected from two other singers in the Kirkby Lonsdale area,

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 08:36 PM

From Old Songs, New Discoveres – selected Papers from the 2018 Folk Song Conference
Jim Carroll
Joseph Taylor in Lincolnshire, from whom Percy Grainger noted ‘Brigg Fair’, also sang in his church choir, as well as at the music festival where Grainger first heard him, and had always had a keen interest in music. His granddaughter relates that he even called his dog Minim, because it had one spot on its back, saying, ‘he couldn’t be a crotchet, he has no stick, and anyhow he must have a musical name’.
That Taylor was musically self-aware was acknowledged by Grainger, albeit somewhat condescendingly: ‘He most intelligently realizes just what sort of songs collectors are after, distinguishes surprisingly between genuine traditional tunes and other ditties,and is, in every way, a marvel of helpfulness and kindliness.

Likewise, in Cumbria we find singers with wide and diverse repertoires choosing to sing only certain songs in particular contexts: ‘folk songs’ if they were requested, dialect songs at appropriate gatherings, hunting songs or songs on farming themes at hunt and shepherds’ meets, and so on. An example is John Collinson who, after winning the Kendal Folk Song Competition in 1905, was subsequently visited by both Percy Grainger and Anne Gilchrist, who also collected from two other singers in the Kirkby Lonsdale area,

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 07:53 PM

Can I suggest that this individual is treated as a troll before this useful and enjoyable thread is closed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:35 PM

The information that Walter went with the Methodists seems to me so interesting that I am disappointed that nobody else asked him about his early religious experience. It has been stated that none of his family sang in pubs: well, Methodists wouldn't would they? Interesting connection between this and Arthur Amis (1905 - 2000), who attended Knapton School for a time - as Pardon will have done - and also worked for a while in Knapton.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:11 PM

Sorry pfr for mess in last post. Trying to do two things at once.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 06:02 PM

Hello ike Yates

1 You raise the question whether the debates on the Enthusiasms pages of Mustrad are relevant to the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread was 'Walter Pardon; Research'. In carrying out research on the subject of Walter Pardon, one encounters material relating to the way his work was marketed, and debates relating to this, much of which is on the Mustrad site. Therefore, they are, I would suggest, relevant.

The post about which you raise concerns did refer people back to the Mustrad site, and it did not claim to have any answers or take sides on any misunderstandings or disputes that took place. I do not think there needs to be any concern that people might get the wrong end of any stick by reading the quotations from it out of context.

The original post references the Mustrad site as a source on Pardon, and you may find it helpful to refer back to this original post (while bearing in mind that thanks to the helpful contributions of some posters, that post would be revised before re-posting). It might give you some idea of the thoughts I had after looking at Mustrad and elsewhere for thoughts about Pardon.

2 Reading the Mustrad site does leave one aware of a number of controversies and difficulties relating to how the man and his work are to be seen. An example explicitly acknowledged, possibly by Mike Yates, is precisely where Pardon learned particular songs, as he is said to have given different accounts to different researchers of where he learned a particular song. Other problems are outlined in a 2000 article by Roly Brown. http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/pardon1.htm

3 I made the point that it has been argued that the 'powder' set should not have been released as it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. I wrote "There have been discussions also, for example, about whether 'Put a Bit of Powder on it' should have been released. I think it was argued that it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. All this seems to be relatively factual."

Your response to this, in so far as I understand it is a) that nothing of the sort has ever been argued as nobody who knew anything about folk would advance such an argument and b) in some sense I am so ignorant myself that I do not know that traditional singers usually have wide repertoires and this contributes to me talking 'utter nonsense', such that you would expect better from a person on Mudcat.

You are perfectly entitled to your point of view, of course. It seems to me (having the benefit of knowing what I do and do not know) that you are wrong about my state of knowledge.

I confess that I do not share your optimistic view about the state of knowledge of Mudcatters. Morever, I find that some of them struggle to engage in a sensible discussion about the contested concepts and ideologies that underpin so much of their thinking! I don't claim to be perfect myself here, of course. But I make an effort!

But for me, in a discussion, it might have been more helpful if you had simply asked me for a reference, for the evidence I was drawing on. In case you would like to read one such discussion, I refer you to the Mudcat thread headed 'Does it Matter What Music is Called'?

That thread also demonstrates that much discussion about folk and traditional music is underpinned by contested concepts and ideologies. They are the topic of the entire threads!

4 Thank you for the information about being the sound engineer on the film. I've made a note of it, and apologise if you feel this should have been mentioned before but was not.

Mr Carroll's allegations that I have made racist comments are wholly inaccurate, an example of what punkfolkrocker refers to as taking things out of context and twisting them. I mentioned racist attitudes to travellers with disapproval.

Dave the Gnome

Wiki isn't always a good guide. On Roger Dixon's relationship to Walter, Roger himself explains it in the Edge TV film, reference already given. He goes back further than one generation to trace a link, but there may have been more than one link. In Shakespeare's day the word simply meant 'relative', so it can be used loosely. In may day, one called all sorts of people 'uncle' or 'aunty', friends of one's parents, maybe at some point Dixon did refer to Walter as his uncle? Who knows?

You may be right that a person might be known by two names, I think that the

By the way, I suspect Pardon had some Scottish ancestry: it appears that many Scots came to Norfolk because of their expertise in farming, and a male ancestor married a Scottish woman. But I'm not claiming this left a great imprint upon the family.

I'm assuming that the former farmhouse Pardon lived in was, as the film hints, called Parr Farm. I may be incorrect here. I know that Pardon himself said there had been smallholdings and they shared the barn. The book on Knapton I mention above says some 'farms' in Knapton were as small as 5 acres. It has some info on Parr Farm, saying, if I remember aright that Roger Dixons family were there, people called Dixon. I'll maybe check this.


The census gives the girls in Thomas Cook Gee and his wife Ruth's family as Elizabeth, Maria, Emily and Alice. (using 1871, 81 and 91). I cannot see an Edith. Ruth was born in Paston (nee Thirtle).

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

By the way, this is one ofthe songs we were intending to use on the Topic project - I don't think is has been included on any other of Walter's albums
Jim

The Steam Arm
Such a curious tale I’m about to unfold
To one and all, what I’ve been told,
About a soldier stout and bold,
Whose wife ‘he had such a terrible scold.

Right toora loora loory addity, right to loora dear,
Right toora loora loory addity, right to loora dear.

At Waterloo he lost an arm,
Which caused him pain and quite alarm,
In length of time he grew quite calm,
For a shilling a day was a sort of a balm.
Right toora loora……………            

The story goes that every night
His wife would bang him left and right,
He thought in time, just out of spite
He’d have an arm, cost what it might.
Right toora loora……………..         

All at once he hit upon a scheme,
He’d have an arm that’d go by steam,
A ray of hope began to gleam,
That the force of arms would bring esteem.
Right toora loora……………..         

The arm was made and fixed on to,
A stump of his shoulder both neat and true,
You’d think it there by nature grew,
For it stuck in its place as tight as glue.
Right toora loora………………                  

In coming home, he reached the door,
His wife abuse began to pour,
He pulled a small peg and before
He’d time to think, she lay flat on the floor.
Right toora loora…………………….            

And soon the house with police was filled,
And half of them he damn near killed,
The arm it was so very well drilled,
That once in action, could not be stilled.
Right toora loora……………            

They took him up before the mayor,
The arm kept going all the while there,
The mayor said, shake your fist if you dare,
The steam arm knocked him right out of the chair.
Right toora loora………………..               

They shut him up in Tom Gee’s barn,
Thinking there he’d do no harm,
And all at once they had an alarm,
Down came the wall and out popped his arm.
Right toora loora…………………..        

Now he wanders about all in a fright,
He can’t get rest neither day nor night,
The arm keep going with all its might,
A-cutting away from left to right.
Right toora loora………………..        

“That’s Harry Sexton’s Steam Arm”.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:55 PM

Thanks, Jim. I shall submit that correction to Wiki

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:52 PM

As far as 'Powder' showing Walter not to be a traditional singer, I suggest you read Mike's 'The Other Songs' on the Musical Traditions site
It's hard to stop this sort of nonsense one the culprit gets his teeth into it
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM

"Rod Stradling and myself were distorting the truth about Walter, when this was not the case. "
It most certainly was not Mike it was, as I said, a misunderstanding
Our somewhat inadequate friend is attempting to settle old scores and no doubt, will try again in the future - sorry you got in his sights
THt fact that he chooses to do so from the safety of anonymity tends to underline what he is
"This has nothing whatsoever to do with Walter."
It is somewhat distressing that he is making Walter one of his targets here
We can't do too much about that but Walter can rest in the knowledge that that he's in good company - he has already targeted the Travellers as "Thieves, poachers and scavengers" so Jeannie, Belle, Alec and Sheila can all have a bit of a giggle over their ambrosia tonight

"these CDs were for sale"
Companies like Topic and Musical Traditions work on the basis of using the prifits from the better known artists (Carthy et al) to finance the source singers albums which invariably sell at a loss
Walter's fellow East Anglian, 'Sam Lerner's album recently sold only three copies - Stradling almost certainly sent out three time as many review copies to get it publicised
You world do better to try to get your facts straight rather than spending your time trawling teh net looking for iffy facts to to sear your felow posters with

"Roger Dixon"
As it seems so world-shattering - Roger was the nephew of Walter's cousin, Hubert, who lived several doors away down the lane
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,ike Yates
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:31 PM

'There have been discussions also, for example, about whether 'Put a Bit of Powder on it' should have been released. I think it was argued that it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. All this seems to be relatively factual.'

This is utter rubbish. I have yet to meet a 'traditional singer' who did not/does not have all types of songs in his/her repertoire. Pseudonymous, have a listen to any other Musical Traditions singers' CDs and you will hear that singers can have very wide repertoires indeed. I would assume that anyone on Mudcat would already know this.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:23 PM

I am sorry that Pseudonymous has decided to dredge up the facts surrounding the Topic and Musical Tradition CDs - which have nothing to do with Walter Pardon (wasn't he the subject of this thread?) To say that there was 'a total distortion of the truth' without placing this in context, might seem to some that Rod Stradling and myself were distorting the truth about Walter, when this was not the case. Again, I am left wondering just what Pseudonymous is up to. He/She seems to be throwing little 'bombs' into the discussion and then sitting back to see what happens.
The facts are that I wrote the Topic CD notes when asked to do so by Topic, and in a manner that they requested, and this was after Jim & Pat pulled out of the project. Similarly, I only offered to let Rod Stradling use some of my recordings of Walter after Jim & Pat had left that project. This did cause some friction between Jim & myself, but we have known each other for other 50 years and, I am glad to say, that we are still friends.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Walter.
While here, I might just mention something else that has been previously said here, namely the about film made by John Cohen. I took John to meet Walter and I was the sound engineer for the film.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 02:01 PM

You have obviously done some research, Sue, so can you answer the questions I posed before?

Was Walter's mother called Edith, as the Wiki article says, or Emily as the official records say? Or was she born one but known as the other? It happens!

The Wiki article lists Roger Dixon as Walter's nephew but I can find no listing of any siblings Walter had. Was Roger not a nephew or did Walter have siblings?

Both these need to be corrected if the Wiki article is wrong.

One final one, for now! The family that own the farm that Walter's cottage was tied to, were the Dixons. Was Roger related to them?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 12:38 PM

Re Enthusiasms: sorry if it was my incorrect reference. It is no 23, and here is a link: https://www.mustrad.org.uk/enth23.htm

Among the subjects discussed are what sort of notes should accompany CDs, what selections of material should/should not be released, at what stage was Pardon singing well (one participant says he was not very good at first and needed time to get good at it) (ie how to market ie advertise, promote, vend the work of Walter Pardon, these CDs were for sale). It seems to me to be beyond doubt that Pardon was marketed, even if nobody made much money from it, and some people made nothing.

We also encounter within this 'enthusiasms' pages, examples of bald assertions of what purport to be fact about Pardon which are not really substantiated by evidence and which seem to me to conflict with what Pardon actually says in the very early interviews accessible to the public via the BL web site.



Thank you.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 12:25 PM

It would appear that Walter Pardon was one of the first children to attend Knapton's Methodist Sunday school. Methodism was fairly strong in Eastern England. Knapton had both church and chapel. This book about Knapton is quite interesting. It gives us quite a good sense of the context, I think. I can relate to this because I have ancestors myself who were Methodists (though of a rather coal mining than industrial sort on the whole). It is by Gillian Shepherd, published in 2011 published by 'Biteback Publishing' and there is a companion volume called 'Knapton Remembered' which it would also be interesting to read.

Also, in case anybody has not seen it, there is a snippet from 2014 on Pardon in here, starting about 48 minutes in, though I am thinking that most of us will have heard this line of argument before:

http://pipers.ie/source/media/?mediaId=25853

And extracts from the interview on which this is based, which I think is referenced in the original quotation, has been typed out on a mudcat thread also dated 2014 and called 'Traditional Singers Talking'.

People can make what they will of the research methodology involved. It might be interesting and on-topic to discuss it.

It is a matter of fact that Pardon was marketed for sale, and that there were lively discussion about how to do this, what should be in the package! There have been discussions also, for example, about whether 'Put a Bit of Powder on it' should have been released. I think it was argued that it did not show Pardon as a traditional singer. All this seems to be relatively factual.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:15 AM

" suppose we could actually try thinking the best of each other for a change."
Amen to that
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:12 AM

I suppose we could actually try thinking the best of each other for a change. Would make for easier reading. I'm off again singing until tomorrow, and living in hope as I go down the road.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:11 AM

'Fraid there's nothing strange about all this - any more than there is about your reasons for raising it
We approached Topic in view to making a possible double CD of Walter
As we didn't wish to make just another collection of songs we put together a combination of songs, anecdotes, parodies, opinions, etc and sent it to Topic
Tony Engle held onto it for a time and eventually sent us a letter, which we still have. saying he didn't feel that's what Topic wished to do - he also said he thought Walter, who was then getting on, wasn't at his best on some of the tracks
Tony also commented on the fact that many of the recordings had the sound of clocks in the background (Walter had a large collection of them - including a loud Russian tin clock purchased from The Daily Mirror)
We accepted Tony's decision and backed out, laving the field clear for Mike to do his excellent 'Horses'
Somewhere along the way someone got the wrong end of the story, but as we have the original correspondence on file, including Tony's letter, there is no question about what happened

We have made several albums from our own recordings, Tom Lenihan, Around the Hills of Clare, From Puck to Appleby, Early in the Month of Spring..
It has always been or practice to include the spoken word on them so the people aren't presented as just 'performers' - Topic didn't wish to do this - their loss, as far as I'm concerned

As few clarifications - no idea where the 'two years ago' came from - We have now lived in Ireland for over twenty years

"marketed for sale"
We have never been paid for producing CDs - only one of our singers was paid - a pittance
These were labours of love on all our parts
For our two anthologies we recieved half-a-dozen free copies which were to be shared out among the performers - go count them

Sorry to spoil your potential juicy bit of scandal
Why do you do this (rhetorical question, of course)
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:02 AM

Ok, I see it now : Enthusiasms 23 is the one.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 10:00 AM

Pseud wrote :

'A search of the MUSTRAD site threw up a link to the following page, headed "Enthusiasms, No 3". Yates and or Stradling are, if I read this aright, said to have written 'a total distortion of the truth' with some readers unable to grasp why any of the background history should have been committed to print in the first place. '

FWIW, Enthusiasms 3 deals with John Moulden, not of the stuff cited.

A link would be useful, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Nov 19 - 09:45 AM

"If you regard fol song as a thing of the past - why involve yourself in it
You must hate Shakespeare"

Jim - what's the point and need for comments like that...???
I'm used to you, but others could see that as unecesarily antagonistic and dismissive..

My approach is to call you out on being so presumptious and wrong about me and others here...

1 - I obviously see folk as past present and future,
to accuse me of anything otherwise is sheer bollocks.
Just another example of you misreading my intentions,
and justifing your misunderstandings
by making up false ideas to put in other people mouths...

"Oh, if you say this, you must mean that.."

sorry to disapoint you, but I endeavour to say exactly what I mean at all times...

You persistently convince yourself other folks, even mudcat mates who agree with you ,
say and mean things they never did...

This is so exasperating...!!!

You can't even agree with people who agreee with you...!!!???

All you are doing is having imaginary arguements with yourself,
while we wait patiently as we can for you to regain the plot...

2 - wtf has Shakespeare got to do with this..
that's just another one of your tangential obsessions..

Anyway, back to Walter..

Did he ever perform or record with backing musicians and singers, or was he strictly solo...????
All I've heard online so far is unaccompanied...