Review: Walter Pardon - Research

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:44 AM

@ Sandman: You mention that Pardon will have enjoyed knowing Mackenzie and Carroll. Obviously, as he let Mackenzie arrange bookings, stayed at them when in London and so on. It seems from the evidence we have that Pardon did take an interest in the ideology of the revival. For example, he refers to a book given to him by Bill Leader. Now I would love to know what book it was and what ideas Pardon took from it.

Because, according to Hillery, and this is backed up by what I read about MacColl and Lloyd, in the 2nd revival they had an emphasis which was lacking in the first on trying to see traditional singing in its context. The problem with this approach viz a viz Pardon, was that his own direct experiences of context seem limited. His main personal experience was of family gatherings, much of what else he says is as it were 'hearsay'. That context had gone, as we all know and for years he was more or less just in contact with music via his radio, his record player (assuming it kept working) and his melodeon. So that line of research (as for example MacColl and his Travellers (though that was critiqued on the MacColl thread) is not really available.

What interests me just now is how Pardon's ideas about music as well as his delivery of it was linked with the context in which he performed it, namely the various venues and situations which arose as a result of his being taken up and 'lionised' by the 2nd revival. As a research question this would be difficult to 'operationalise' even if you could go back in time with a tape recorder (or mobile phone with cameras), and it any interview techniques and questions would require very careful thinking about. The lack of dating on some information about Pardon therefore frustrates me.

I know there are all sorts of issues about getting at 'the truth' or 'reality' when it comes to those complex things called people, but leaving those aside there seem to me to be at least two problems with getting at Pardon: on the one hand there seem to be multiple problems with research strategies especially interviews, and then there are issues around selectivity and bias and so on in the presentation of the material, which is often done in a (very interesting and at times well written) journalistic style suitable for magazines and also often driven consciously or unconsciously by the plain ideological agendas of those producing the material. Hillery mentions MacColl and Lloyd in connection with the 2nd revival, both of whom had clear political agendas in relation to folk music. One of those who has produced literature (using the term in a broad sense) about Pardon is something close to a disciple of MacColl, for example.

I'll give a little example of a statement about Pardon's context that, in my interpretation, can reasonably be interpreted as demonstrating ideological bias. It is a statement to the effect that since the roads in Knapton were not 'made up' when Pardon was young there were very few outside influences. This came in a piece which also suggested (perhaps from, a London Centric viewpoint) that Norfolk itself was relatively isolated! The underlying ideological thinking in the statement about Knapton would be that rural folk could exist there unpolluted by the commercial world etc etc, that 'the tradition' could flourish. I came across this after reading a history of Knapton, which may be why the assertion struck me as misleading with such force.

It would be reasonable to assert on the contrary that Knapton was reasonably well connected with the wider world. It had its own school from the first half of the 19th century. It had a railway station (shared with another village) from the 2nd half of the 19th century, used for livestock as well as passengers. By the 1930s it was developing a tourist industry. It had both church and chapel, both sources of 'outside influences' in one way or another. As we know, agricultural trade unions (outside influences one has to assume) had influence there. Its residents came from a range of social classes, some of whom across the spectrum would have had access to a variety of animal drawn conveyances capable of travelling on unmade up roads. It would surprise me if there were not rules laid down stipulating that particular farmers/landowners had duties to maintain bits of whatever roads there were: this was the case in other parts of the country I have looked at. On Pardon's own evidence broadsides reached the place, as did the musical instruments used in the band he talked about.

Sorry to post at length.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:16 AM

I will say that at some points especially when singing lower notes without any appearance of straining, there is a sort of chocolatey quality to the tone of Pardon's voice which is likeable. Personally, and again this is personal, and honest, I do not like his idiosyncracy of swooping down at the ends of lines, something I read somewhere was his own touch, he did not claim this to be 'traditional' or the way Billy sang. I noted that Hillery in one case finds this over used in a song (All Jolly Fellows) and says it isn't particularly successful

Nor do I always much like the feature Hillery describes sliding or leaning down into notes, a feature which sometimes sounds like a 'yelp' (I think I may have heard it described as such) and which rightly or wrongly makes me think of Arthur Askey (a favourite of an old aunt of mine, again from a mining background) and variety/music hall singers. Again, Hillery refers to All Jolly Fellows, though there are also examples in Banks of Dundee.

To be honest, it almost made me feel better to read that Hillery shared some of my own reservations about Pardon's style, it always makes you feel better to know you are not alone.

Of course I respect the aesthetic responses of those who experience Pardon's singing differently. To go to another genre, I love the work of Ella Fitzgerald, especially her scat singing, but a pal of mine cannot stand it. 'Fair doos', as they say where I was brought up.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:01 AM

Ewan and Peggy never at any time suggested using source singers as a guide to singing technique (not English ones anyway) - they were nearly all past their prime and all but a very few were singing from generations-dead traditions - remembering songs which had been remembered for them by their forbears
The best of them brought something to the songs that younger singers could never attain in a thousand years - a natural ability to re-live and understand the essence of the songs they sang - they "wore their songs as someone would put on their favourite old jacket" as someone once put it
Phil Tanner was typical of this - go listen to MacColl's loving description of 'Banks of Sweet Primroses' on 'The Song Carriers, where "this old,old man manages to sound like a young lad going out on a summer's morning looking for love for the first time" (paraphrase)
Sam Larner was the same - every time he sang it sounded like the first time
Walter's quiet but extremely deep understanding of his songs were transmitted with an ease and conference of a veteran, even though he'd only been singing them public for a decade or so.
His understanding of his songs was summed up perfectly by the statement he made after having just sung his long version of Van Dieman's Land - "That's a long old song, but it was a long old journey" - a perfect example of an artist's relationship with the piece of art he had just re-created.

That's the type of thing artists spend a lifetime trying to achieve - people like us, coming to these songs as outsiders, need all the help we can get if we are going to manage it
We need Walter's fond respect for his songs, or Sam Larner's bubbling enthusiasm, or Harry's seething anger when he sang about past injustices - or Phil Tanner's ability to relive his youth through his songs
Peggy Seeger once said Sam Larner had more 'life and vigour in him' than any younger man she'd ever met - that's what he put into his songs - effortlessly
It's all there in the recordings if you care to listen, and, if you can get hold of the few examples of what they had to say about their sings, that's an added bonus

Once you get into the area where the traditions haven't been dead for very long there's much more to be got in the way of technique and function - get hold of Joe Heaney's marathon interview recorded by Ewan and Peggy - a great master talking about how he acquired and how he approached his art.

Our (my) revival was founded on those old singers - sure, they were hard work to begin with, but well worth the effort
They gave us over four decades of pleasure of re-living and sharing these songs
When what they communicated went from the scene, then so did the reason for singing the songs - that's why the present scene now appears to have no future - the love and energy has gone from it

When a handful of dedicated individuals decided to try and turn around the fortunes of Irish music they didn't look for new superstars to do the job, but they enlisted the forces of the few old people who had lived the tradition - Junior Crehan, Joe Ryan, Bobby Casey, Tom Lenihan, Martin Reidy, Eddie Butcher, Mary Ann Carolan, Joe Holmes, The Keanes.... luckily, there were enough of them around to help guarantee a future
Largely, in England, we're stuck with only the recordings - for crying out loud, don't waste what we have - there's a goldmine yet to be tapped

If you don't like or understand these singers, then you don't like or understand our song traditions and you're better off coming to terms with it and going elsewhere for your fix
I honestly believe there are enough people around, including those who have left the scene in despair, to take up these songs and get the same enjoyment we did from them   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 02:33 AM

This is going back to the comments I made 03 Jan 20 - 03:15 AM. I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds some of the source singers work hard going. As we age, we definitely get more selective in what we do with our increasingly limited time. I would rather listen to something I can really enjoy without having to spend time learning how to appreciate it. This does not just apply to source singers, BTW. I am sure that I would appreciate Jazz and Opera a lot more if I put time and effort into understanding it. But I would rather spend my time doing something else.

Not liking a particular traditional song or a specific source performer does not mean you do not like folk music. Far from it. It just means that your tastes are different to some others who support the same genre and long may that diversity last.

Sorry to wander from the thread topic but I think it is important to understand that someone else's tastes are not a reflection on your own predilections.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:50 AM

I see nothing wrong with my generalization, Dick. It's what I like, and a description of what I like about it. I've listened to lots of source recordings and learned a lot from them. I appreciate them, but I don't listen to them for pleasure. Your results may vary, and that's just fine. Sorry, but I'm just not a big fan of absolutes when it comes to music. People like what they like.

Here's an example of Phil Tanner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xVT-vdJL4g

Tanner fits my generalization very well, as does Walter Pardon. These source singers are very interesting, but I still don't listen to them for pleasure. I'd far rather listen to the Watersons, the Copper Family, Coope-Boyes-Simpson, Cockersdale, The Witches of Elswick, and Grace Notes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:20 AM

I listen to some source singers for pleasure, PhilTanner I FIND VERY PLEASURABLE, all depends on the singer and how good they were what a genarilised comment from joe.
rather like saying, i do not listen to bird song for pleasure

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:12 AM

i think it must have been interesting for Walter Pardon to have met Jim and Pat, an it reflects well on them that they built up a good relationship and genuine friendship with Walter that their interest went beyond the songs A very different attitude to Peter KENNEDY Who regarded the songs he collected as his and sometimes showed little interest in the singer as a person.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon - Research
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 09:33 PM

You can "venture to say" what you like, but what I do is one hundred percent untutored. I know all about rhythm, tempo and staying in tune because I've painstakingly taught myself those things. And only idiots call me "Stevie." I'll let you off this once but if you ever call me that again I'll call you Holy Joe for ever more. I have no idea how trained Walter or any other traditional musician is or was. What I do know is that traditional music is caught, not taught, and, as I implied, a highly-trained musician who then comes into traditional music had better shed an awful lot very quickly. That isn't to say that you can't achieve a deeper understanding of classical music via your scholarship. Of course you can. But even that can't be imposed on you via "training" unless you want to be a concert pianist or an orchestral player. You do it for yourself. As John Seymour said, there's many a miner who sings in a Welsh male voice choir who has a deeper understanding of Beethoven than many a professor of music.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 09:03 PM

I had music every semester from Kindergarten to the last day of college. I learned to read music, learned about dynamics, learned about staying on key. I'm sure Walter Pardon wasn't taught all those things. Pardon came from a time when everybody made music, whether they were trained or not. I'd venture to say that even Little Stevie Shaw had more music training than Walter Pardon, so perhaps Steve is not as pure and primitive as he presents himself to be.
But it's interesting to explore the difference. I've heard people deplore the "folk revival" because it commercialized music and imposed the rules of music on something that had been pure and simple. It made music the property of the middle class and took it away from the working people. Maybe so.
I can't make music like Walter Pardon did, but I can make music and I love to do it. Is one better than the other? I don't know.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 08:39 PM

Well that's good. Now I'm not a mainstream folkie by any measure at all. I've played in pub bands and strutted my stuff at weddings and so on, happy to get free beer in return for playing Irish traditional tunes. I can knock out a decent tune for you any day if you force me to. But the last thing I need to be is a trained musician. The joy of playing traditional music to me was that I was playing with untrained musicians. Hairy arses. We had a highly-trained musician in our band once. Talk about carrying a passenger...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 08:27 PM

Good point. I have to say I don't listen to source singers for pleasure. I listen to learn songs, and then I sing them in the more musical style in which I was trained. I daresay I'm not a "better" singer than Walter Pardon, but I'm certainly more of a trained musician than he was.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:02 PM

Bejaysus, how to kill a thread with verbiage...

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:16 PM

Regarding the exhortation not to forget that I said my granddad was a better singer.

OK

Introduction.

I read recently an account by Peggy Seeger of why she and MacColl did not use the techniques of trad singers in the UK as the basis for their singing tuition. She said it was because they were basically mostly elderly and not particularly good. I also note on the other Pardon Mudcat thread a poster called Nick who comments, without bile or 'toxicity' his honest response that Pardon sounds like an old chap and he cannot quite see what all the fuss is about.

Both of these leave me justified in being at leasts somewhat underwhelmed by the singing I encountered when, and there is nothing to be ashamed of in this, I was introduced to this singer by frequent references to him on Mudcat.

Comparing him with my granddad, 'Tom', both had working class origins but in Tom's case the village he grew up in had cows etc above ground and coal mines under it. He was the son and grandson of coal miners; his grandfather died in a pit accident. Tom fought in WWI so was from an older generation. Both Pardon and Tom were born after the introduction of compulsory state education (so neither can be seen as in some line of pure oracy). Both were involved with the Methodist movement in their youth, a movement which made a great deal out singing. Both appear to have been 'taught' singing at school. In Tom's case he was taught the tonic sol-fa which he could read. He sang a lot in public until his bladder would not cope with long intervals away from the porcelain! But I never remember his voice having that 'old' quality that you get with Pardons. Moreover, he could sing a chromatic octave perfectly by ear and I do not think that if he started with C as doh he ended up with C# as doh.

By the way, Hillery comments how carefully Pardon breaths at the ends of lines and at suitable pauses in his songs, and I too noticed this and thought somebody has taught him when singing to take a breath at the pauses. I think one of the online interviews with Pardon he mentions doing folk singing at school so this theory holds up.

So one of the research questions I might have had in respect of Pardon might have been what singing he did do at school, and how this was done. The focus on the 'old songs' they sung at home, the ones he learned orally may have led to information that might have affected his delivery later in life being missed. Indeed, nobody seems to have realised that he went to a Methodist Sunday School, despite Methodism and political radicalism being linked in that part of the world, with a quite well-known leader being active in the very village of Knapton.

As for being embarrassingly bad, I repeat what I have said before about the song Pardon called 'The Bush of Australia'. The recording in which Pardon and a number of rather posh sounding men sit smirking about 'Cock a Doodle Doo, and the song itself are all rather embarrassing, and, as I have said, Lloyd's comments that the Australians did not like it and that the hints that the woman was black were expunged from later versions because it was about 'miscegenation' all seem to me to betray 'racist' attitudes/assumptions. But having listened to the recording this was more or less the first song I listened to on Spotify.

I am sure Pardon had all the good qualities ascribed to him: intelligence, sense of humour etc (as indeed did my Granddad) but I find the 'reverence' (Steve Gardam and I have discussed this term on this thread I think) with which he is mentioned somewhat OTT and I think that if the folk world really wants to draw in younger people it may have to think this OTT stuff through a bit, as well as some of the ideological stuff that shines through so much 2nd revival literature.

I don't intend to insult or upset anybody, I am just being honest. The world has changed since the early days of the 2nd revival and maybe, just maybe, 'folk' needs to deal with that if it really isn't to become history (along with the planet, perhaps).

My goodness, I do seem to be going off on one. No offence intended, just a frank, and I hope, not insulting or 'toxic'.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 05:15 PM

Regarding the song The Banks of Sweet Dundee, mentioned by Pardon in the magazine article above,


Hillery selects ‘The Banks of Sweet Dundee’ for the Pardon song in the amatory song category (recorded by Mike Yates in 1978). The same song is used for Jack Beeforth (recorded by Hillery himself).   Beeforth sings it in a mixolydian mode, Pardon in the major or ionian mode. He describes Pardon’s voice as having a ‘thin and reedy’ quality, with evident ‘back dentality’ - probably linked to the local accent - and a great degree of nasality. Pardon’s delivery, he notes, has many phonological features of dialect, but not lexical or grammatical features. In this latter respect Pardon’s work differs from that of some of the other work discussed in the piece. He comments on the places where Pardon takes a breath, at suitable pauses. He notes that the pitch of the song changes slightly during the delivery, being about a semitone higher by the end of the song. He notes that the song is sung almost without ornamentation except for a ‘dying fall almost as parlando’ at the end of each verse after the first. He praises the delivery as simple, lucid, clear, without pathos or sentimentality.

Hillier has some interesting comments on first-revival folklorists' attitudes to this song, including that of Kidson. He says it is a song which was either written for or embraced by the broadsheet trade, and that to (some?) modern ears it epitomises Victorian sentimentality (or some such phrase) though be balances this by a quotation from Mike Yates' sleeve notes.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:50 PM

Brilliant, Vic! Both articles pure gold! Many thanks.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:39 PM

@ Vic Smith. This is very kind of you and I am sure everybody appreciates it.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:26 PM

Hi Brian,
Ah yes, agreed.

Yes, Dave's obsessive agenda certainly spoiled what could have been a brilliant book using the same title.

Ewan's interviewing must have been outstanding to come up with the material he had for the Radio Ballads. However, I often regret not having had any training. I do think that I could have missed lots of valuable information as I was largely interested in the songs themselves and had little time to delve into the lives of the singers.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

The transcribed interviews with Walter Pardon that appeared in Vol. 1 No. 3 August 1977 in Folk News. The article is accompanied by two large photos of the man, another of Uncle Billy Gee. A fourth photo is captioned "Bert Lloyd and Walter at Loughborough". None of the photographers are credited: -

Two-and-a-half years separate the interviews from which this article has been edited. The first, on December 7, 1974, took place before Walter Pardon's first Leader album, "A Proper Sort", was issued, and is actually transcribed from Bill Leader's recording of an interview conducted by Karl Dallas for the Melody Maker series "Folk Giants" at the time that album was being recorded in Walter's home. The second was recorded in Putney, London, earlier this year in the home of Pat McKenzie, of the Singer's Club, the Sunday morning after Walter had appeared at the club. In the intervening period Walter's album had brought him international acclaim, a trip to Washington DC to participate in the US Bicentennial celebrations, and appearances at several clubs and folk festivals, though he still turns down more invitations to sing than he accepts. In contrast with some other traditional singers whose style has suffered after they have been taken up by the folk revival, a comparison between the' way he sings today and the early "demo" tapes which Walter recorded for Roger Dixon, who passed them on to his old pupil Peter Bellamy, shows that the impact of the folk scene upon Walter Pardon has been beneficial. Today, he sings with more confidence and authority, presumably derived from the knowledge that the present generation has more respect for the songs than his own. He no longer works as a carpenter, but refuses to consider himself a professional singer.
AT FOURTEEN I was apprenticed to a carpenter in the next village, Paston, that's what I done all my life except four year in the army. I went in in November 1942 and came out in October 1946.
There's not much to see at Towey's Barn. You ought to look in the church roof here, that's better than looking in the barn. It's got a double hammer beam. There's about 140 angels in the roof, nearly every trade on, I think: angels with hammer and nippers in their hand, boat, some playing the lute and these old-fashioned string instruments. Some have got their faces blackened, they said what Cromwell's soldiers done. It looked as if tar had been put on. It was too high up for them to damage much. They say there was a shipwreck and they took the timber and put it on the church but 1 don't hardly believe that.
I should have liked to have been about here, though, when that choir was going on, the clarinets and things in. 1 believe that died out in the early 1850s, I don't know.
Three year ago. March (1971) when 1 went to the Queen's Head at Norwich, that was the first time (he sang in public). Then the second time I went to the University, the (Norwich) Folk Festival, 1974. That's second. The third time going anywhere I went to Snape, you know where Bob Hart and Percy (Webb) sing. I didn't know him until I met him there. And Percy, never seen nor even heard of him.
I can remember about 1944. I was stationed in Surrey, we hired a radio set from Aldershot. Poor old Harry was on that, Harry Cox. He was born only 12 miles away. 1 never did see him nor Sam Larner. The only old singers I've seen is Percy Webb and Bob. Percy's dead now.
Harry was singing a song what I knew then and knew well though I never laid claim to it. He was singing "The Banks of Sweet Dundee" and that was scorned and ridiculed.
Walter got most of his songs from his uncle, Billy Gee.
He used to go to a pub in North Walsham, the Mitre Tavern, which is out of existence, though the arch is still there, to connect up the bicycle shop with the ironmonger's shop, that's still known as the Mitre Tavern arch. I think that the Mitre Tavern stood somewhere where the ironmonger's shop is. They had a singing room in there, like we have folk clubs now, isn't it? I never did know whether he learned from anyone in there or whether he got them from a grandfather. I never did ask.
He was a good singer, better than I, a lot. Oh yes. a lot better than I am. He'd got a stronger voice, pitch the songs up a lot higher too. He was the best singer there was in the family by a long way. He did sing in pubs, though I never did. I've never seen this but he said they'd sing songs and go round with a hat. collecting in it. I never did hear him sing only once in a pub meself. I never did go in the pub much with him. I don't know. I never did like pubs much, unless it's a folk club. I never did like pub bars. I never did go in much or drank much beer. I never was keen on that sort of thing. I never did sing in a pub anyhow, not in a bar, not if they asked me to, not now. I like a room when it's peace and quiet, that's what I like.
I never did sing out of the house hardly, we used to sing in here at Christmas time, that was all. Old beams used to go across the room. We called them baulks. It went right through the chimney and got covered in soot and one year it caught on fire. One Saturday night. 1 remember, they poured water down. I had it left in when they modernised the house but the bricklayer came and took it out.
So you'd have people sitting your side of the room and mine. Someone sang your side of the room, that's what they used to shout: "Ourside of the baulk", or beam. They were always called baulks. We had to appreciate the song sung that side of the room for someone to sing this (side) so, cast over. They used to shout it, it was took as a compliment. I don't know that they done it anywhere else, it used to be done in here. That was always shouted Christmas time.
I never did sing a lot of the old folk songs, not then, not with the older ones alive. That was their perk. They always sung their own songs. you see. Uncle Bob Gee would sing "Jones's Ale", that was his song, Tom Gee always sung "The Bonny Bunch of Roses", no one else would sing that or dare. They had special songs they sung. The brothers would never sing what another brother sung nor did they like anyone else to. So I had to sing what no one else wanted to.
"The Dark-Eyed Sailor", 1 was allowed to sing that, no one else wanted to and I always liked the song so that went all right with me. "When the Fields are White with Daisies", that sort of thing, "The Old Rustic Bridge by the Mill", "In the Shade of the Old Apple Tree", they were more modern songs what they never bothered much about.
Well, Billy, there's a lot what he taught me that he never did sing much. There were so many repeats. "Generals All", or "Marlborough", "Rambling Blade", "Young Sailor", "Old Brown's Daughter", that was nearly always sung. Part of "The Bush of Australia" was considered obscene so that was cut out, a lot of that, never did sing all of that through, but that was then. Tom's song, he used to sing "The Cobbler" mostly, another bawdy old song, "Cock-a-Doodle-do". Another one was "I Wish They'd Do It Now" that was another one. "The Dandy Man", that's another one, "Jolly Waggoners". Tom would sing ('The Bush of Australia") through but Billy never would, so there was only a fragment going. He'd tell me the words and I used to write them down because he'd tell me it won't be whole sung through in company. He told me that used to be stopped in public houses, some of the landlords would ban that, that was a banned song. Balderdash, they called that. 1 don't suppose they'd take much notice now.
He never sung them all (through). He must've known them, he could sing them all (but) I've heard him sing fragments. It was no trouble to learn a tune 'cos the mother, the two lads, they knew the tunes as well as he did. So sometimes I'd nearly got the tune off before I knew the words, he'd supply the words. It was from him and the grandfather that the tunes were got. I never did hear him sing, not a great many, not through, not as many as he let me have anyhow.
You never did hear him sing "Van Diemen's Land" right through but it was only through him 1 knew it, though. My Aunt Alice would sing a good bit, mother's sister. She's the last one left alive. I lived with her when I had my house altered and modernised a bit. She used to tell me a lot about the songs, the tunes too. She used to enthuse about how well her grandfather used to sing "Van Diemen's Land", so did mother and the other sister. They all enthused on how well he sung that, so that was the reason why 1 liked singing it.
Old Spot, he'd say: "You can always get the tunes." My Uncle Walter, he used to play an accordeon, he could play them on his accordeon too, you see. I could learn them then, quick enough. They all knew what they were, they had heard them so much, you see, especially the father of him because he used to do a lot, any time, Christmas, night time, anywhere around he'd sing songs. He sung to the children.
Singers in folk clubs compared with his family singers:
Some are about the same, some sing well, they come in the Orchard Garden, some very good singers. I always think they've got the advantage, most of them, of accompaniment, don't you? I always think that's better to listen to. Well I think so, don't you? I think the old folk songs were meant to be unaccompanied. So the experts write about and say they are, so I don't know. 1 never expected anything of the sort (his discovery) to happen. Originally, I was giving them to my cousin's son to take to Peter's (Bellamy) history teacher. Roger Dixon. He's been taught, he's a musician, he can read music and sing, play a piano and all that sort of thing. I thought they'd just do for him to sing at Fakenham at the different concerts where he's in or whatever he do. I never expected they'd ask me to go in or make a record or do anything. That's as far as 1 thought they'd go.
Fact, 1 don't suppose I'd have recorded them, he was the one really, kept asking me for years to put them on record. He said when I was no more they'd be gone. And as he's more or less slightly related, I suppose he thought that's a pity to let the songs die and no one know anything about (them).
He found out about them when there was just Father and Mother left alive, he used to come and have his tea when he was at North Walsham Grammar School. He'd come every Friday. He'd more or less got to hear the songs through me playing them all the time on the accordeon.
Then he kept on at me. That'd be about 12 years ago when he got married. He said: "Has Walter got a tape recorder?" He wanted to bring (one) for me to sing the songs on. I refused for years to do it until I bought one myself about five years ago.
Then when I first tried it out. that sounded so horrible I wiped them all out. When I played that back that did sound dreadful, the first time I'd heard it. Yeah, it did, that's dreadful. I thought so. anyhow. I used to try anything on just to see how it did sound. When I thought it sounded passably good for him I filled the tape up. That was how Peter found out about it.
I'd seen Peter about once on the television, that was all, but I never knew if he was educated at Fakenham or anything about him you see. So I never expected them to go about like they've done, anyhow .Nor and I never expected anyone to have taken any interest in them.
I got one, I'd heard that and I can't remember where the man came from or anything that was "Mowing the Barley". He was a West Countryman, I think that was all that was known.
"The Dark Archer", the song I sang there last night up at the Singers' Club, no one there around that area knew it. That was sung around there by an old blind fiddler used to come round, Blind Harry. About 80 or 90 years ago, he'd play this violin that was more or less his song. Pat and Jim (McKenzie) came to see me and I spoke about this song. Pat got the words from Mike Yates, that was a little different version so I had to more or less shorten some of the words, alter it a bit to fit 'the tune that Blind Harry sung it to. So 'that is more or less a twisted version, two songs in one.
The most recent one I got, "Grace Darling", mother sung it. 1 never was sure of the words, I didn't, not quite enough to get it on as I want. I found a book she'd wrote it out in, so that was how I thought, "It's mother's song and I'll sing it". That was how I got that one. I don't know how old that is but I know that happened in 1838, the "Forfarshire" wrecked off the Northumbrian coast and also this girl rowed out with a rowing boat and died when she was 23. That is the most recent one that I've discovered, I think.
The better things I'd like to see, I think, my grandmother burned and that was the broadsheets and I think she did. She'd got no ear for music and I don't think she used to appreciate it, because, apart from when grandfather got a start, that was non-stop, so they told me.
It finished all Christmas parties when Mother died. The last one was 1952. My Mother died in the February, 1953, there never was any more. You see, that just left Father and I in here. Ever since, I've gone up to an aunt who lived up the road they never had any singing up there never sung up there or took the accordeon out of the house.
I still play that, have done for years here alone on a Saturday night, never missed. I sometimes sit on the stairs a play, so people can't hear me. I never bring it out. I've never considered myself good enough to bring it out.
My Uncle Walter always had one. My Aunt Alice bought me one for about sixpence with four keys which would just play a tune, a chromatic (melodeon), you see,, it would play eight notes. I learned play on that and I had one ever since; different ones, some with ten keys, some double-rowed. 1 did manage to get a few songs on a piano accordion that I bought about 40 years ago. The push-in note a the pull-out note is just the same, you've got 21 keys on a piano accordion, it's just 21 notes. On a chromatic, 21 keys you've got 42 notes, so they don't work the same.
Walter was largely self-taught.
Yes, well, I don't know if anyone can teach you, can they, to play? I suppose (Uncle Billy Gee) might have had a hand in it. I don't know. Our styles were different. I can play fairly well. I suppose but in no comparison to what I've hear Tony Hall, Chris Morley and all them or anybody else. So that's why 1 don't bring it out. I don't even compare it to what Oscar Woods can do or Percy Brown, not as good as that, so you know why I just play it for my own amusement.
I can't sing so well with accompaniment as I can alone. That has been tried because Cliffs (Godbold) youngest boy David is a good violinist, he can play "Old Brown's Daughter", that has be tried. I can never sing it so well in accompaniment. I sing it in the key of C, he can set it and he can play it. When he's playing it I'm listening to him instead of concentrating on what I'm doing myself. It never sounded too good. I might do it if I had a lot of practice but I've never been used to being accompanied. I know some sing the better with it, most of them do but that is something what I've never been used to so I can't do it so well.
I never knew the folk clubs existed, only vaguely. 1 had an idea they ran something like a ... I thought about a select band of people might get drawn round and sing these songs over like they sung in Victorian times. I never knew there was big folk clubs. I'd never seen the Melody Maker or knew anything about it or looked at it. At least, I never knew they held a festival at Norwich until I went. It was never publicised. You never saw it in the local paper, not the daily anyhow. So what 1 knew about folk clubs and that sort of thing was nil nearly. Peter, you see, he was the one. I think that'd be better if they did advertise folk festivals more, in the paper, the local one, don't you?
My generation ridiculed songs. There was no young men (singing them) 40 years ago. When I was 20 you went to a man of 60 to hear the songs. That.. . is . .. a ... fact! You can see that in this book what Bill (Leader) brought me. They got out of the way to sing songs. Bob (Copper) and his cousin Ron. That's correct and that is the same here. That is the reason they lay dormant. They'd have laid so for ever more if it weren't for Roger or the folk revival. That's correct enough, yeah, yes.

The previous article from Folk Review that I text-scanned was on fine gloss paper and this made it an easy task. This one from Folk News was on decades-old decaying newsprint which made it a more difficult task. I have tried to correct this but as I have said, this comes at a very busy time for me and I cannot give it that much time. I apologise for any text mis-readings that I have missed

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 02:59 PM

"and avoid personal abuse."
Are you serious !!!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 02:12 PM

Just an aside:

'Kennedy was the only person able to collect tunes from the fiddler N Boyle[ the composer of the moving cloud]'

Séamus Ennis was the first to collect extensively from Boyle. Ennis also recorded Boyle with Alan Lomax. I would assume he also introduced Kennedy to Boyle.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 10:29 PM

Peter Kennedy was criticised by some for asking Scan Tester whether he thought there was a man in the moon. However Kennedy was the only person able to collect tunes from the fiddler N Boyle[ the composer of the moving cloud],Kennedy collected a vast quantity of material.
As regards Walter Pardon, I would have like to have heard his opinions on Allan Smethurst, Allan fitted all MacColls requirements of singing songs from or about his own area in his own accent, yet i suspect that Jim AND Pat did not think about asking such a question because Allan would have been looked down upon by some people in the uk folk revival in my opinion that is a shame because we rarely hear from trad singers what their opinion is of people like Smethurst who were novelty hit makers, but who in fact were folk singers and chroniclers of their area.
          I am sure if Alfred Williams had been collecting in Norfolk in the 1960s he would have collected both Walter Pardon and Allan Smethurst.
I would like to thank all the collectors who collected songs from Walter Pardon including Jim and Pat, A JOB WELL DONE

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 07:33 PM

To develop the point I was trying to make, here is Mark Wilson, distinguished collector of North American folk music, writing to Musical Traditions a number of years ago:

"...direct folk music scholarship of the sort required has fallen to negligible levels here, at the same time as the literature of righteous critique has abundantly flourished. Plainly, the latter exerts a profoundly chilling effect upon the former. In future years, when interested parties look back on our era, they will no doubt ask, "How is it, at a time when important tradition bearers were still active, that academic folklorists wasted their time in such relatively insignificant veins of criticism?"'

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:34 PM

'agenda'driven stay-at-home researchers'. Who might these be?

Hi Steve, and a Happy New Year to you too.    I should probably have been clearer: I was referring particularly to Dave Harker and various other self-styled researchers I've come across in the course of my work on Cecil Sharp. It's very easy to sit in front of a word processor and find grounds to criticize field workers without whose contributions we would have nothing at all to go on. Obviously I'm aware that field work is not the only way to research folk song, not least because of the availability of online resources of the kind I've used a lot in my own work.

Regarding interview techniques, I have little to no confidence that formal training would actually have achieved better results in the case of Walter Pardon, or indeed MacColl / Larner and other such interactions. I'd be interested to know what questions critics of these interviews would prefer to have been put to the singers concerned.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:26 PM

apologies for thread drift,Hoot the difference was they were popular in East Anglia itself, an indication that Smethurst's compatriots identified with this affectionate portrait of their idiosyncrasies.
the kipper family were only populasr as pisstakers of the copper family
inside the folk revival
ramblin syd rumpo enjoyed a very brief appearance as one of kenneth williams poorer efforst , but none of those two were popular in East Anglia itself, among non uk folk trvival audiences, he was a true folk singer

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:07 PM

Hoot , you show a lack of understanding of the genre , the kippers and syd rumpole were piss takers ,
alan smethurst[was not a satirist] he was a fine songwriter of comic folk style songs, check out mind your head bor. nicotine girl. my miss from diss, was the bottom dropped out and a chronicler of post war norfolk in song, follwing the binder round , the cricket match, etc

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:40 PM

Dick,

Are you really serious about Smethurst? if so I expect you next to be asking if he was influenced by The Kippers or perhaps Rambling Sid Rumpole?

One thing I do remember about the times that I met Walter is that he appeared to be the keeper of the one time village band's instruments. He had a bass drum and a flute or fife that he showed us. I expect Jim or Mike Yates could throw a bit more light on it.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:21 PM

Alan Smethurst, was as important a chronicler of norfolk post second world war life as indeed was Walter Pardon-pre second world war , Alan had a hit in the sixties ,Walter must have been aware of his existence, it is a pity if walter [who on occasions also sang older comic songs] was never asked his opinion of somebody who could arguably called a song carrier reflecting norfolk life post Walter.
after all most of walter pardons songs were pre second world war norfolk, smethurst continued reflecting and chronicling norfolk post second world war, arguably more of a continous link as regards norfolk life than Peter Bellamy, who sang songs such as fakenham fair and fiddlers hill [both peter bellamy composotions

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:59 PM

No objection to 'robust' responses, so long as these are relevant constructive and avoid personal abuse. They are useful in fact.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:33 PM

Happy New Year, Brian
'experienced and respected folk song collectors' we might well be described as, and whilst that is very complimentary the fact is that very few of the collectors in this country has received any training of any sort and that goes back to the days of Bishop Percy. The nearest we have come is the Leeds University Folk Life course in the 70s probably came the closest, but having looked through some of the dissertations and collections even then the students seemed to have received little or no training in relevant interview techniques. Like the rest of us they went off to do their own thing. NatCect/Cectal did provide some training in the 80s/90s but most of their collectors were interested in folklore. I'll certainly check with my old mate Ruairidh Greig but if they did they were few and far between.

I'm afraid I can't agree with your last statement 'agenda'driven stay-at-home researchers'. Who might these be? All of the researchers I know have been and still are very active in the field.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 07:19 AM

Anyway, i believe that psudonymous wishes to remain anonymous for a particular reason,but i would echo and support Brians comments,
Jim was WalterPardon aware of the songs of the singing postman, did you ever ask him about his opinion of Alan Smethurst, after all Alan Smethurst was a chronicler in song of the norfolk of the fifties and sixties, as well as being a good songwriter in the comic genre, who had influences of people like jimmie rogers[the yodeling brakeman] but who reflected accurately norfolk country life post second world war

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 07:14 AM

Re interviewing:
"research carried out by amateurs seeking to investigate people like Pardon"

The 'amateurs' referred to here are some of the most experienced and respected folk song collectors around, and the fact that they haven't been paid for their labours doesn't make them any less expert. The interview material available on Walter Pardon is some of the most extensive and valuable collected from any traditional singer. 'A questionnaire'? Are you being serious?

One of the sadder developments in folk song research over recent decades has been the tendency of agenda-driven, stay-at-home researchers to pick holes in the efforts of people who actually did stuff, collected songs, met singers, etc. Give me the 'amateurs' every time.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:45 AM

Our moderator believes that the OP "has posted some very valuable information about Walter Pardon". I'd have said that the most valuable offerings on this thread have been those contributed by persons who have deep personal knowledge of traditional singers, their styles and backstories and, in two cases, personal knowledge of the subject of the thread: Jim Carroll, Mike Yates and Vic Smith.

The OP has, it's true, copied and pasted an article from Musical Traditions which was useful here, but unfortunately right from the outset he or she has presented an agenda questioning WP's status as a traditional singer, raising irrelevant issues regarding his sources, style, etc. S/he has attempted to convince us of the existence of a 'Pardon industry' devoted to 'lionising' a singer who (apparently) deserves no such respect, and which was allegedly animated by Marxist beliefs.

Let's not forget that the OP posted on the 'State of British Folk' thread that "some of [Walter Pardon's] offerings on Spotify are so embarrassingly bad I would be cringing if hearing them live", and on the present thread that "my granddad was a better singer".

The fact is that, by any objective criteria, Walter Pardon was an accomplished and highly significant traditional singer. He had a large repertoire learned principally from members of his family, including many songs with full, coherent texts and interesting melodies. His voice had a pleasingly warm timbre, his pitching was accurate (if sometimes prone to drifting sharp over the course of several verses), his attention to the lyric was exemplary, and as a performer he was modest yet authoritative. He came to the attention to the folk revival at a time when it was widely believed that singers of his quality were no longer to be found, so it's hardly surprising that people were excited.

In the light of the OP's obvious and stated disdain for Walter Pardon as a singer, and the plethora of spurious and unsupported claims that have been made, it's hardly surprising that several contributors have felt the need to respond robustly.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:41 AM

The suggestion that any collector allows his/her "bias" to effect their results without having examined their work in detail is both extremely arrogant and also deeply issulting
It allows any academic carer seeking academic to make a name for themselves without making the slightest effort
If such accusations or even implications are made they need to be presented with examples and irrefutable proof, otherwise t stands to undermibne everything we have done
To a degree, this has what has gone radically wrong with our understanding of folk song, following Dave Harker's taking contacts out on some of our most important researchers
It needs to be nipped in the bud in these discussions otherwise any subject this lady chooses to target with go crashing in flames
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:37 AM

Sorry last post has a number of 'typos'.

I shall now post a transcript, copied from Mudcat, of an interview with Walter Pardon. I don't know the date of it, which would be helpful. Nor do I have any information about the context, such as how far the contents had or had not been rehearsed formally or informally. My interpretation of this text is that it demonstrates leading questions, the use of somewhat limiting 'either or' questions, and that there is a clear sense of the answer that the interlocutors want.

J C When you're singing at a club or a festival, who do you look at, what do you see when you're singing?

W.P   I don't see anything

J C You don't look at the audience?

W P No, that's why I like a microphone: I'd rather stand up in front of a microphone, than anything, 'cause that's something to look at. That's what I like, this sort of thing in front; you can shut the audience out.

J C   So what do you see when you're….?

W P   Actually what I'm singing about, like reading a book.
You always imaging you can see what's happening there, you might as well not read it.      

`P Mac   So you see what you're singing about.

W P   Hmm.

P Mac   How do you see it; as a moving thing, as a still thing, or… moving?

W P   That's right.
'Pretty Ploughboy' was always ploughing in the field over there, that's were that was supposed to be.

J C So it's that field, just across the way?

W P That's right?

J C   How about 'Van Dieman's Land' then?

W P   Well, that's sort of imagination, what that was really like, in Warwickshire, going across to Australia, seeing them chained to a harrow and plough, that sort of thing, chained hand to hand, all that.
You must have imagination to see it all, I think so, that's the same as reading a book, you must have imagination to see where that is, I think so, well I do anyhow.

P Mac   But you never shut your eyes when you're singing, do you?

W P   No, no.

P Mac   So if you haven't got a microphone to concentrate on, if you are singing in front of an audience, where do you look?

W P   Down my nose, like that (squints).

P Mac   Yes, you do, yes, that's right, you do (laughter)

W P   That is so, have you noticed that?

P Mac   Yes

J C   Do the people in the songs that you sing, do they have their own identity, or are they people you know, or have known in the past?

W P   Their own identity, imagine what they look like

J C   You imagine what they look like?

W P   That's right, yeah.

J C   And when you sing the song, they're the same people every time; they look the same every time?

W P   That's right, yeah, that's right.
All depend what it's about, or the period.

J C   And they would dress in the period…?

W P   That's right, yeah.

J C   So where would you put 'The Pretty Ploughboy', what sort of period would you….?

W P   Lord Nelson's time.

J C   So they'd be wearing….?

W P   Yeah, in the last century.

P Mac Then what about a song like 'The Trees They do Grow High' or 'Broomfield Hill'?

W P   Oh, that'd go back, really, farther still, buckled shoes, that sort of thing (laughs).
That is right though.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:58 AM

We have a description of his concept of a folk club "in a big house"
His nephew Roger was Bellamy's tutor - Roger was the one who encouraged him to put his songs on tape in the first place

I would suggest you leave Pseud to her won devices if yo want to keep this thread open
Jim


RECORDING HIMSELF
Anyhow, I set it up once and plugged in, I tell you, that was a good job; I was right nervous doing it.
I thought myself, I used to think I could manage to sing the old ‘Rambling Blade’; I put it on and it sound so blooming horrible I wiped it right out, oh, that did sound dreadful; I don’t think that was as bad perhaps as I thought it was, but that was a long while, I trying different things until, you know, I thought that was better as I kept hearing it, you see.
And I know that was about October, 1972 when I started it; Oh, I don’t know, it took about up to Christmas time to fill one side; I used to forget there was verses in the songs, you see, I used to keep wiping it out and putting them on again. That took a long time to get them up into the pitch I could sing them in, not having sung the things.
Well I got one side done somewhere from the October up to the Christmas 1972 this was. And I know when it come over to the following New Year I was in here one Saturday night and that was bitterly cold; oh, that was a wind frost, wind coming everywhere. I was that cold I had a big fire going one side and that little stove the other.
So I thought then I’d do some more taping. Anyhow, so I got warmed up, I had a strong dose of rum and milk, and I had another one. And so I got the tape recorder going, I can remember well enough; that was Caroline And Her Young Sailor, and when I finished it was the best I ever did do.
Well, I found out I drank more than I should, I had to keep right still. Well, I switched it off; that was true, in fact I was drunk, and then of course I went to bed, I never did have any more, and the next morning when I got up and tried it I knew I was, how that was coming out with all then words all slurred, so I wiped it all out.
Well I found then as I kept going, that it wouldn’t pay to drink anything.
Anyhow, eventually that was filled up in the March, that was March 1973.


FOLK CLUBS
I had a vague idea they had folk clubs of some description, all these doctors, solicitors etcetera would go and sing in someone’s big house. I never realised you see, working people done that, never knew a single thing about it.

PICTURES WHILE SINGING
J C   Can I ask you something else then Walter. When you’re singing in a club or at a festival, who do you look at, what do you see when you’re singing?
W P   Well, I don’t see anything.
J C   You don’t look at the audience.
W P   No, that’s why I like a microphone; I’d rather stand up in front of a microphone and that sort of thing ‘cause it’s something to look at, that’s what I like, this sort of thing in front so you can shut the audience out, ‘cause I can shut the audience right away from everywhere.
J C   So what do you see then, when you’re…..?
W P   Well actually what I’m singing about, like reading a book; you always imagine you can see what is happening there, you might as well not read it.
P Mc   So you see what you’re singing about?
W P   Hmm
P Mc   And how do you see it; as a moving thing, as a still thing?
W P   That’s right.
P Mc   Moving?
W P   That’s right. The Pretty Ploughboy was always ploughing in the field over there, that’s where that was supposed to be.
J C    Over there?
W P Hmm.
J C    So it’s that field just across the way?
W P   That’s right.
J C    How about van Dieman’s Land?
W P   Well, that was sort of imagination what that was really like, in Warwickshire, going across, you know, to Australia; seeing them chained to the harrow and plough and that sort of thing; chained hand-to-hand, all that.
You must have imagination to see; I think so, that’s the same as reading a book, you must have imagination to see where that is, I think so, well I do anyhow.
P Mc   But you never shut your eyes when you’re singing, do you?
W P    No, no.
P Mc   But if you haven’t got a microphone to concentrate on, if you’re singing in front of an audience, where do you look?
W P   Down my nose, like that.
P Mc   Yes, you do, yeah.
W P   That is so. Have you noticed that?
P Mc   Yeah.
J C   Do the people in the songs that you sing, do they have their own identity or are they people you know or have known in the past?
W P   No, their own identity, I imagine what they look like.
J C   You imagine what they look like?
W P   That’s right, yeah.
J C   And when you sing the song they’re the same people every time, they look the same every time?
W P That’s right, yes, yes, that’s right. All depending what it’s about or the period, that’s right.
J C   And they were dressed in the period…?
W P   That’s right yeah, yeah.
J C   So where would you put The Pretty Ploughboy, what sort of period?
W P   Lord Nelson’s time.
J C   So they’d be wearing……?
W P   That’s right; the beginning of the last century.
P Mc   What about the song like The Trees They Do Grow High or Broomfield Hill?
W P    Oh, that’d go back really as far as…. Buckled shoes, that sort of thing. Well no, they wore buckled, but anyone ploughing would never wear buckled shoes but I mean they dressed in, you know, fairly smart clothes and a ring on their thumb sort of thing.
J C   And how about Dark Arches, what would be the type of…?
W P   Oh, myself; if you’re singing about yourself that must come in it (laughter).

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:53 AM

I hope that this thread will remain open until Vic Smith has posted the second of the two pieces on Pardon, since I am interested in reading all the 'research' on him that is available.

I found one other reference on JSTOR, an obituary written by Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie. I don't think it added anything new, though it expressed their admiration in appropriate terms. It does acknowledge that some of Pardon's repertoire came via records played on a wind up gramophone, not necessarily contradicting the assertion heard all the songs he sang at family gatherings, of course. (Hillery lists the songs in the repertoire that Pardon also had on old 75 RPM records.) I won't say more about the review except to say it was Folk Music Journal Vol 7 No 2

I raised and Brian Peters (rightly, albeit with a tad of sarcasm) followed up on aspects of the use of interviews as a research technique. I'll discuss this, and try, bearing Jeri's instruction to 'edit', to be brief.

'Interviews' can be more or less formal. They range from those intended to result in an amusing piece for a popular magazine to those intended to produce a searching inspection of the point of view of a politician, as well as being a research method used in fields ranging from marketing through to social sciences such as Marketing, Psychology and Social Science. They are a less structured way of getting information than, for example, a questionnaire. But their use presents some of the same risks and pitfalls.

There are plenty of beginner's guides to the use of interview techniques on line, setting out the pros and cons of the method as a way of obtaining accurate information (leaving aside the question of how far a person's opinions and ideas may change from time to time).

One well-known phenomenon is a tendency for people doing interviews to try to be helpful to the interviewer by telling them what they want to hear. Therefore, those training interviewers tend to emphasise the need to appear neutral to avoid biasing the outcome. I think this is probably the main point I would make in connection with research carried out by amateurs seeking to investigate people like Pardon.

To point out how subtle and complex these effects can be, the best example I can come up with is a finding I read about some time ago that when IQ tests were given to Black Americans by other Black Americans the people being tested scored higher than when they were given the same IQ test by white Americans. I think it is worth giving this example, because suggesting that an interviewee may be in some sense tailoring their comments as a result of their perceptions conscious or unconscious about the interviewer is not the same as accusing them of lying.

When it comes to looking at the output from interviews, it is only natural to consider how far the approaches and ideology of the interviewer may have affected the final output, whether this is an article (which may be an edited version) or a tape recording (though these too can be edited).

This is before we even begin to think about issues of bias and selectivity in the way the findings are reported.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:04 AM

Was Walter Prdon familiar with any traveller singers, did he know of the existence of the uk folk revival before Peter Bellamy met him? had he heard of the comic song writer Alan Smethurst, had he heard Fred Jordan, my apologies for bombarding you with questions Jim, i quite understand if you do not know the answers, but psud who tries to give the impression of wanting to research , has remained mute and might possibly want to know., and like the corncrake appears to be shy

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:47 AM

The three great Norfolk singers, Harry Cox, Sam Larner and Walter Pardon never met
Harry and Sam appeared on a film together in a beautiful little film, 'The Singer and the Song' but they were filmed separately

Walter constantly expressed his admiration for Sam and shared some of his songs
It was Walter who linked Sam's song, Butter and Cheese and All' with the local practice of men hiding up the chimneys to avoid the Press Gangs which raided the Norfolk villages during wartime looking for unwilling recruits

Walter shared the ability of a number of singers we recorded to 'see his songs' as he sang them
He provided descriptions of the characters in his songs and mentally dressed them in period costume
When he'd fininsed singin 'The Pretty Ploughboy' for us once, he pointed out of the window and said "He used to work in that field"
That appeared to be fairly common among singers from traditional singing backgrounds
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy told us that singing a song was like sitting in a cinema watching a film"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:39 AM

,Pseudonymous , i have asked you a question at least twice what particular research of walter pardon are you interested in?are you interested in his songs, his personal life , his carpentry skills?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:30 AM

is it correct that Walter Pardon did not know Harry Cox personally?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:29 AM

Joe Offer, I love you.

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:19 AM

There has been no comabt from me on this thread Joe and that fact that you single us out for your accusations makes you one of the problems
This thread was re-opened aggressively by someone whose attitude has been openly aggressive since her arrival, up to the point where she opened a thread 'digging the personal dirt" on me and my wife - you choses to leave tat thread open for three days, despite my immediately asking for it to be closed - several other people protested about it
You really can't have favourites as a moderator' - you deal with all problems or you let us slog them out ourselves as the adults we are - that's what used to happen
If Max had not been as busy as he appears to be, I would have raised hour behaviour with him a long time ago
You forbid us to discuss how we are moderated on this forum yet you have made it a major problem
I am most certainly not the only one who feels thios way

If this thread is closed - again - it will have been you that has closed it
Please may we continue ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 02:50 AM

if we Talk about Walter Pardon we should call him Walter Pardon, not Pardon or Wally or Walt.
I have asked pseudonymous a question .to let us know precisely the research that he/ she wants,.. no answer. So far we have learned that he was a carpenter , that he lived alone, that he kept a vast repertoire of old songs alive ,that unlike sam larner he was not a pub singer[ he sang mostly for his own pleasure at home] that he also played melodeon. that Peter Bellamy and others brought him to the attention of the uk folk revival

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe G
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 02:07 AM

Well said Joe. The pettiness, aggressiveness and closed minded attitudes on Mudcat sometimes appalls me. When people approach discussion in a friendly open minded way - as they did for a while on the 'Current state' thread there is much to learn and discover.

Anyway back to WP!

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 09:06 PM

Well, thread drift is ordinarily not a problem. It's combat. It was bad enough when the Usual Suspects wanted to do battle in the BS section, but lately they've moved their combat over to the music section. It's a small, bullying "in crowd" that scares other people away from Mudcat because they find themselves unable to carry on a decent discussion of any serious subject.

I reopened this thread so that people could discuss Walter Pardon. Unfortunately, only the person named as a troll wants to discuss Walter Pardon, and she has posted some very valuable information about Walter Pardon - the Usual Suspects just want to do their usual dog-and-pony act. Jim Carroll even wants to do battle with her about her referring to Walter Pardon by his last name, a common journalistic practice. If I don't see substantive discussion of Walter Pardon in the next few hours, I'll close the thread for good.

I get too many complaints from people who say Mudcat has been taken over by a small, bullying group of British males. On top of that, this group always seems to pick a pariah they want to drum out of Mudcat - the first one I recall is Lizzie Cornish, and that was years ago.

I think it's time to put this bullshit to a stop. This is a music forum, and people ought to be free to discuss music here without being bullied away. So, get back to the business of talking about music. In Walter Pardon threads, talk about Walter Pardon. In Ewan MacColl threads, talk about Ewan MacColl. If you can't do that, I'll do my best to stop you.


-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 12:14 PM

good to hear someone got the better of Peter Kennedy[he always reminded me of the saying you need a long spoon to sup with aman from fife] nevertheless i am grateful to have his book, even though he[kennedy] was a bounder, apologies for the thread drift and hope holy joe doesnt close the thread because i mentioned, Kennedy

---

Talk about the topic of discussion and the thread won't get closed. If you and Mr. Carroll can't do that, you'll find yourselves both suspended.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 12:10 PM

"Walter’s father Tom had the second Union card issued, Nos.1 and 3 going to men from nearby villages."
I recall that this was a mistake on our part - Mike put me right at the time
Walter was a carpenter, not an agricultural worker, but I'm sure most of you are aware of that
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 11:40 AM

Thanks Mike
Good luck with the CD - sorry about the misunderstanding
By the way, did you know Walter set Hardy's poem 'Trampwoman's Tragedy' to a tune ?
He never learned it, but sang a text of it for us
Jim

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 11:23 AM

Brian wrote
many others were racking their brains for half-remembered fragments from their youth, at the behest of a collector.

I would imagine that was the norm after a singer has established a relationship with a song collector. They wanted to please them. I can think of several examples from the old singers that I have talked to. In an interview with Johnny Doughty after he had been visited by Mike Yates a couple of times, he talked about sitting in his net shed trying to bring back more of a half-remembered song to record for Mike - often with some success. Of course, he also "remembered" a good old sea song after he had heard it on a Spinners' LP but by the time he got it the way he wanted it, it fitted perfectly into his repertoire.
George Belton and his wife often came to our club in Lewes and sometimes I would catch his eyes lighting up when a song was going on, followed by an intense whispered conversation with wife. Sure enough, a couple of weeks later he would be back with his own remembered/reconstructed version. I also remember him chuckling his way through Sydney Carter singing his composition Mixed Up Old Man. He must have got the words from somewhere and that became part of his repertoire sung to a tune that was closer of Villikins & his Dinah than the original.

I was at the funeral and then a very well attended Memorial event for a very popular local singer in November; over 100 people there. One of her daughters came up to me and said, "Vic, can you sing Binnorie? It was one of mum's favourites." I asked her to give me time to think about it and I would. I had never learned the song but when you have been around folk songs and ballads for 60 years, you actually know far more songs than you realise. I sang the song and managed to get through a version that I realised afterwards was partly from Lucy Stewart and and partly from her neice Elizabeth.
It would be easy for me to imagine a source singer being able to produce a song for a collector in that way.
Some of the songs that Caroline Hughes recorded for Peter Kennedy sound like a combination of floating verses and some that she made up on the spot, but Peter was paying her 50p per song, so she wasn't going to say that she didn't know any more, was she?

Subject: RE: Review: Walter Pardon; Research
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 11:22 AM

Firstly, Jim you misread what I said about a new CD. I did not say that the whole CD would be devoted to Walter. I am actually researching the large number of American songs which have been collected from people like Walter, who, for example, had quite a few such songs in his repertoire.
Secondly, the sad saga of this thread. The thread was opened by an unknown person hiding behind an alias. It was soon apparent that the thread was actually opened in the knowledge that it would annoy at least one reader - and this seems to have been successful. I doubt that Pseud is actually interested in Walter Pardon, he just seems to want to stir things up. The there is the fact that, whoever he is, he clearly does not know me. If he did, then he would not have called me a Marxist. I have tried to figure out why he should have said this. Perhaps it was because I quote one sentence from Karl Marx in an article about Walter. I have also quoted the Bible in other writings, but that does not necessarily make me a Christian! Or perhaps it is to do with the fact that at one time I was associated with Topic Records, when several of the people there were members of the CPGB. If the first case, then I think it odd that a person should base his beliefs and assumptions on one sentence. If the second, then surely this is a case of 'guilt by association' and we know where that led to in America.
Then there is the matter of how Jim has been treated by the moderator. Surely Jim is the victim here. As such he should have been treated far better than he was.
Over the years I have always tried to help people who are interested in folk music. It doesn't matter if it is a three-chord newcomer looking to find a song or two, or else a PhD student working on his dissertation. However I really have no wish to help Pseud with his toxic ideas. If you wish to tell us who you are, or what you really want. Then maybe you will get help. Somehow, though, I doubt that you will have the guts to tell us.