BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 09:11 PM

He can't find thousands of those posts, Raggytash, because there aren't thousands of those posts or anything like. He's a liar. Not only that, he's a put-up job. His strings are pulled by an extreme-right group and he hasn't got the balls either to come clean about that (note that he never denies it, because he can't) or to actually express any opinions of his own (which wouldn't be worth a fart in a spacesuit in any case). Christ alone knows why our mods, who generally do a damn good job, can't just cancel his membership as they did with akenaton and Teribus, who look almost like fluffy kittens alongside him. Let him confine his postings as a guest in the music section. In fact, he knows bugger all about that either. I came back here after the latest shutdown to defend SRS against his stupid claim that she didn't have the first understanding of democracy. Somebody saved me the trouble by deleting the post. There'll be a next time!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 06:05 PM

An interesting piece here from today's Guardian, in which the future battlegrounds of the Brexit campaign are discussed.

Johnson will find it very difficult to carry out his Brexit plans without damaging those very areas who abandoned traditional Labour allegiances and, out of the blue, gave him his big majority. It's going to be an interesting few years (assuming he lasts that long, and that's by no means a given).

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 07:00 AM

No surprise, is it.
As the old song says, “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet!”.
No doubt our Tommy Robinson fanboi will be creaming his underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 06:48 AM

So much for the Conservative party becoming more moderate

5000 from the far right have joined the Tories

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 05:46 AM

Any chance of you responding to the challenge which was in response to your post:

"I can find thousands of posts from the lefties that give the lie to that statement. They have still not been deleted!"

So, come on, show then to us and please don't post anything else until you do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 04:28 AM

" As you never have anything constructive or remotely sensible to say, that's the best suggestion I have for keeping you mercifully quiet and relieving us of your profound stupidity. Hope this helps."

The bottle bank near you must do a roaring trade! and a teetotal New Year to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 02:43 AM

I don't, Jeri, and I really couldn't care less.

You didn't miss much, Stanron. See

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: bobad - PM
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

I have no idea what he was trying to achieve.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 07:45 PM

Does DtG know what Bobad's surname is? It seems like a really stupid argument, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:56 PM

What's all this about your name? I seem to have missed that.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:42 PM

Al how do you feel about the tactics of your new found friends? Do you not think that the type of right wing dirty trick that you and I have been subjected to, that is still going on here, deserves your contempt as much as anything that Steve or I say on Mudcat? Or are you now firmly under the spell of the spin doctors?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:35 PM

We do at the moment, Stanron, but I worry for the future. How do you feel about the infiltration of your party by extreme right wing activists like the ones on here? I do hope your own team can keep them in check.

Neither my original surname nor my new one had anything to build do with me, bobad, but I am proud of the achievements of the family that have held both. My Father suffered at the hands of both the extreme right and extreme left. I have suffered at the hands of the extreme right who tried to mimic my identity both here and on Facebook. Mentioning my surnames assisted with that but I am not frightened of you or your right wing allies. Just what is it that you are hiding by keeping your identity secret?

Oh, and invective directed at object such as the government, the law or the Daily Heil is not personal abuse. Feel free to take it up with someone who gives a shit if you disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 04:30 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: How would your centrist party manage the excesses of unfettered capitalism? How would it help social and ecological policies to its shareholders?

Do we actually have unfettered Capitalism any longer? We have workers rights, environmental protection, safety at work and taxation. Sure the Amazons and Googles of today defy national constraints but I expect that international politics will eventually get fetters on them.

Also all our political parties are tied to the NHS, social services, green policies and integrated transport, through the demands of democracy. You might loose them in a one party state but the idea of a Central Left party is that it would keep the Right focused on the center by being a viable alternative.

Pfr, I think a lot of the ex-Labour voters who voted Conservative this time would vote for a center left party next time if it were more like the old New Labour. New Labour got a landslide election victory at it's first outing because, for one thing, it wasn't too far left. Leave things as they are now and they may well vote Conservative next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 04:28 PM

"Bobad……………. does it matter what Dave's surname is ………. or do I detect a racist/xenophobic nuance in your post?

I strongly suspect the latter.

If I am correct it has no place on this or any other forum."

Another thing that has no place on this forum is the publication by an anonymous member of the true, real-world identity of another member.

As low as it's possible to go, and a tactic beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 04:17 PM

Bobad ……………. does it matter what Dave's surname is ………. or do I detect a racist/xenophobic nuance in your post?

I strongly suspect the latter.

If I am correct it has no place on this or any other forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:50 PM

One major problem for the future
is too many traditional working class ex-Labour supporters
have, since the brexit referendum, by now had their minds too deeply polluted
by the worst popularist international far right internet and mass media 'influencers' ..

This does not bode well for any serious attempts to heal divisions..

Society has taken too far a step back into the dark ages
of eN eF/Bee eN Pee recruiting at factories, football grounds, pubs, etc...

A new 'New Labour' would again be too middle class,
A momentum new 'Old Labour' might probably also be too middle class...

This leaves dubious options for disaffected working class voters
when they eventually tire of empty tory promises...???

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

Lol.......someone who posts "Daily Heil" and accuses another of "invective and flame bait" in the same post.........you couldn't make it it up , right Mr.Polshaw or should that be Mr.Polakow?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:35 PM

Interesting idea, Stanron. My reservation is that we could end up with a political system based just on varying degrees of capitalism. Don't get me wrong here, I have always said that capitalusm, particularly when done responsibly with views on both people and resources, is not always a bad thing. But neither is responsible socialism. We need to look after those least able. We need an NHS. We need coordinated transport policies to save resources. We need to manage the release of greenhouse gasses. These things do not make a profit. They are not in the remit of the free market economy.

How would your centrist party manage the excesses of unfettered capitalism? How would it help social and ecological policies to its shareholders?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:11 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: Unfortunately, the Lib-Dems completely blew it for me when they betrayed my trust by joining in coalition with the Tories in 2010.

I understand that. That's why I think it would have to be a new party with new leaders and a new power structure.. If not New Liberals maybe New Whigs or perhaps Central Left. I don't mean to be provocative here but the circumstances that led to the initiation of the Labour party no longer exist. Political parties have not all changed to meet how the workplace, the electorate or the world of information have changed.

One solution is to let Momentum have the anachronistically named 'Labour' Party and design a modern new Party that reflects today's conditions. This could be seen as an opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 02:38 PM

That’s what I thought Stan. All a bit hazy now though.

Unfortunately, the Lib-Dems completely blew it for me when they betrayed my trust by joining in coalition with the Tories in 2010. Until 2015 I’d never voted Labour in my life, but I refused, and still refuse, to vote for the party who sold out to the Tories, and my strong Sense of self-respect ensures that I have never, and will never, voted Self-Servative.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 02:07 PM

Thanks, Stanron. We disagree most strongly on politics but you can at least post your views without the recent taunts and flames. Most of the time ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:56 PM

The Lib Dems did come from Centrist Labour MPs leaving when The Militant Tendency group were strong and joining the Liberal party. What happened then was that the Moderate Left, under Neil Kinnock, took back control of the Labour party which led to Tony Blair's Land slide victory in the 90s.

Momentum has control of the party now, at the local level and at the top of the party tree. It's hard to see how they can be removed, unless they themselves acknowledge that their goals are unattainable and give back power to the center. If pigs can really fly like that, what will we do for bacon?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:55 PM

BWM - I could live with a two party system..

But I'm fairy convinced that whatever they say in public about a "strong Opposition party"
too many right wingers would prefer a ONE party political system..
..or even a NO party monarchy, or Empire...???????

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:36 PM

Isn’t that where the Lib-Dems came from?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:34 PM

Stan - I'm more persuaded the Libs should disband,
and their members and voters be decisive
if they are more inclined towards Labour or Conservative parties.

Potential Benefits..??? - perhaps, a strengthened shared centre moderate ground
for more consensual day to day politicking..
maybe helping keep extremes in check...

.. and a simpler more definite two main party 'either/or' choice at elections...???

well.. what do I know.. I'm just a bloke with opinions...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:23 PM

As an escape from the plethora of mind numbing Christmas movies that are almost everywhere on TV land at this time of year I've been spending quite a lot of time watching the BBC Politics channel. There are a couple of series of short lectures that are interesting. One is called The Reith Lectures. There are five half hour programs where Jonathan Sumption looks at aspects of Parliament and the Law.

Another series is called Reflections: When Parties Split. Again in five half hour parts, Steve Richards looks at party splits starting with Peel and the Corn Laws, Joseph Camberlain, Ramsey Macdonald, Labour and the SDP and finally Brexit.

Both of these series look cheap as chips, A single camera on a single speaker with or without a lectern. In one of them there is a Radio 4 logo and all of these would have done as well as radio programs. The Radio 4 logo suggests that they were. If you can find them, they are all on again tomorrow, they are worth a listen.

Another surprising gem amongst all of this is a program called Briefings. Tony Blair, speaking less than a week after the election, reflects on the state of the Labour party and it's defeat. He looks at the history of the Labour Party and predicts alternate futures. He points out that before the Labour party the Whigs and Liberals were the long time opposition to the Tories. Before the Labour party existed the Liberal Whig coalition spent more time in government than the Tories.

After The Labour Party overtook the Liberals the Tories spent more time in Government than Labour. Although he didn't put it like this himself, this suggested to me that the existence of Labour split the left wing radical vote and weakened it for good. He went on to suggest that if Momentum do not relinquish their hold on the party, the party itself will be replaced. Surely a third left wing party would increase the divide even further.

Tony Blair did not suggest this, but I wonder if the solution would be an amalgam of Lib Dems and center Labour outcasts to form a New Liberal Party. That could be an effective opposition.

Not, of course, that I want one, or do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:08 PM

Hands up anyone who now realises they are a useful idiot for the far left,
or an even more useful idiot for the far right...

..what no hands.. no one...?????

not even you over there in the corner
keeping your head down looking ever so slightly guilty and sheepish...!!!

Oh well.. just goes to show the power of persuasion, deception, denial, and delusion...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:25 AM

Facts, Al. Facts make the best arguments. It is an inescapable fact that the only reason we have a Tory government is because they won most seats. Whatever logic has led you to believe that a couple of posters on a forum read by a handful of people have swayed the population to vote Tory is wrong. In the same way you are wrong to blame immigrants for all the ills of the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:14 AM

Which just shows how little you know about tory policies Dave. Most of the EU mischief was achieved under toey misrule.

theone consistent thread in tory policy is the impoverishment of working people and attacking their unions and representatives.

The scattergun Corbyn approach has made the biggest attack on working people in several generations, and the saddest thing is that you take NO responsibility for where all your shit slinging has led to.

The tories could never have dreamed they would have collaborators in their plans like you and Steve. They'd never have done it without you!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:13 AM

Point taken, Dave. Perhaps the moderators will see the light and make a certain New Year's resolution....

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:05 AM

Well now why don't you just toddle off and find them all. No rush back until you've done it. And don't come back until you've found at least two thousand. "Thousands" can't be any less than that, you know. As you never have anything constructive or remotely sensible to say, that's the best suggestion I have for keeping you mercifully quiet and relieving us of your profound stupidity. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:03 AM

I repeat my earlier link on dealing with Flamers and Trolls

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 10:50 AM

Now, it has already been established that invective and flame bait will achieve nothing but deletions and thread closures.

I can find thousands of posts from the lefties that give the lie to that statement. They have still not been deleted!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 10:16 AM

Al, the only people to blame for the Tory victory are those who voted for the Tories. Your posts are sounding more and more like those of the resident right wing plants. Your blaming of the EU for the loss of the car industry, blaming East Europeans for crime and blaming free movement for the running down of the NHS are arguments straight from the front pages of the Daily Heil.

Now, it has already been established that invective and flame bait will achieve nothing but deletions and thread closures. If you wish to argue for Tory policies, feel free. I suggest though that you stick to verifiable facts. That way there may be some hope that this thread may continue to be a vehicle to expose broken pledges and lies in civilised manner rather than becoming a platform for hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 09:18 AM

THIS is more popular/important than your priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 08:56 AM

If IDS gets a knighthood, Corbynistas should get an Iron Cross with oak leaves (services to the Tories)

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 08:38 AM

”By means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms -- elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest -- will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial [...]. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.”

Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958

Sound familiar? It should - it’s already happened, and the Right will ensure it continues. The evidence is in the two previous posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 08:21 AM

Big Al. When the eejits have spent their compulsory 40years in the wilderness there is a slender chance they may begin to understand.
Meanwhile the sane majority continue celebrating the tremendous defeat of the remainiac lefties. It is even more satisfying to realize no one is, has, or will listen to them!
Luvvin it!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 08:12 AM

Crying over spilt milk.

I read somewhere that if Farage's gang of nutters had not stood the tories would have clinched another 20 seats.

that's the pay off for having your fun . three and a half years of gratuitous insults. Telling people they were idiots who understood nothing.

nationalisation, repatriation of IS - even as they were doing murder on the streets of the capital (that was our fault for waging war against saddam Hussain) etc Brilliant stuff guys ...take a bow!

Everything the tories do to us will be YOUR fault.... you knew what the consequences of losing were, and you gave nary a fuck.

the wrongness of your approach is on statistical record, and you are still unrepentantly laying down the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:38 AM

Boris has got the perfect amswer, ' everybody knows I'm a liar, so what did you expect ? what's the problem ? '

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:23 AM

Back to the thread topic.

Police support staff cuts

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 09:42 AM

And from the same link. Something that I keep reminding others of

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 09:35 AM

I don't think so.

Flamers and Trolls are dealt with by the moderation team though.

With particular reference to -

flame bait
An intentionally inflammatory posting in a newsgroup or discussion group designed to elicit a strong reaction thereby creating a flame war.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 08:58 AM

More post deletions. Is posting the truth too uncomfortable for some?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 05:43 AM

Make of this what you will ............... one nation? ..... yer right.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 12:06 PM

You may have all noticed the closure of the other two threads. Thank you for that SRS. I agree we only need one Polit-UK thread and, considering it will all be broken pledges from now on, this should be it.

Play nice :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 08:58 AM

Yeah lefties like the Daily Mail.


Mail article

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 08:57 AM

And article 346. Ditto the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 08:49 AM

EU Charter of Fundamental Rights

Oh the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 08:45 AM

The government does what the fuck it likes.

This does get tedious

EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
Article 1 of Protocol No.
Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.
Further
Article 17 - Right to property
1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.

A PLC is a legal person (Corporate personhood is the legal notion that a corporation, separately from its associated human beings (like owners, managers, or employees), has at least some of the legal rights and responsibilities enjoyed by natural persons.[1] In the United States and most countries, corporations have a right to enter into contracts with other parties and to sue or be sued in court in the same way as natural persons or unincorporated associations of persons Courtesy of wiki.A Nation can invoke Article 346 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU, which allows any government “to take such measures as it considers necessary for the protection of the essential interests of its security”.

This means the UK can subsidise an industry, or prevent the sale on security grounds. If security is not seen to be an issue by the government of the day then it cannot prevent the sale of an independent company

As usual lefties bend, distort, and outright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 07:01 AM

It is not within the government's remit to stop the sale. you are of course totally wrong as usual.

The government does what the fuck it likes. You gave it that permission when you voted. It can decide either way in this instance, but chooses as it has chosen. It can make laws if necessary. It does and has many times. Whatever the turn of the coat the PM decided. Currently there are a lot of more significant repercussions hanging on their choices, and it will mostly impact those wot didn't vote for the current excrescence in Westminster.


Note to trolls of this parish, no colour was ascribed to any government(s) herein so described.