BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:13 AM

Point taken, Dave. Perhaps the moderators will see the light and make a certain New Year's resolution....

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:14 AM

Which just shows how little you know about tory policies Dave. Most of the EU mischief was achieved under toey misrule.

theone consistent thread in tory policy is the impoverishment of working people and attacking their unions and representatives.

The scattergun Corbyn approach has made the biggest attack on working people in several generations, and the saddest thing is that you take NO responsibility for where all your shit slinging has led to.

The tories could never have dreamed they would have collaborators in their plans like you and Steve. They'd never have done it without you!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 11:25 AM

Facts, Al. Facts make the best arguments. It is an inescapable fact that the only reason we have a Tory government is because they won most seats. Whatever logic has led you to believe that a couple of posters on a forum read by a handful of people have swayed the population to vote Tory is wrong. In the same way you are wrong to blame immigrants for all the ills of the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:08 PM

Hands up anyone who now realises they are a useful idiot for the far left,
or an even more useful idiot for the far right...

..what no hands.. no one...?????

not even you over there in the corner
keeping your head down looking ever so slightly guilty and sheepish...!!!

Oh well.. just goes to show the power of persuasion, deception, denial, and delusion...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:23 PM

As an escape from the plethora of mind numbing Christmas movies that are almost everywhere on TV land at this time of year I've been spending quite a lot of time watching the BBC Politics channel. There are a couple of series of short lectures that are interesting. One is called The Reith Lectures. There are five half hour programs where Jonathan Sumption looks at aspects of Parliament and the Law.

Another series is called Reflections: When Parties Split. Again in five half hour parts, Steve Richards looks at party splits starting with Peel and the Corn Laws, Joseph Camberlain, Ramsey Macdonald, Labour and the SDP and finally Brexit.

Both of these series look cheap as chips, A single camera on a single speaker with or without a lectern. In one of them there is a Radio 4 logo and all of these would have done as well as radio programs. The Radio 4 logo suggests that they were. If you can find them, they are all on again tomorrow, they are worth a listen.

Another surprising gem amongst all of this is a program called Briefings. Tony Blair, speaking less than a week after the election, reflects on the state of the Labour party and it's defeat. He looks at the history of the Labour Party and predicts alternate futures. He points out that before the Labour party the Whigs and Liberals were the long time opposition to the Tories. Before the Labour party existed the Liberal Whig coalition spent more time in government than the Tories.

After The Labour Party overtook the Liberals the Tories spent more time in Government than Labour. Although he didn't put it like this himself, this suggested to me that the existence of Labour split the left wing radical vote and weakened it for good. He went on to suggest that if Momentum do not relinquish their hold on the party, the party itself will be replaced. Surely a third left wing party would increase the divide even further.

Tony Blair did not suggest this, but I wonder if the solution would be an amalgam of Lib Dems and center Labour outcasts to form a New Liberal Party. That could be an effective opposition.

Not, of course, that I want one, or do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:34 PM

Stan - I'm more persuaded the Libs should disband,
and their members and voters be decisive
if they are more inclined towards Labour or Conservative parties.

Potential Benefits..??? - perhaps, a strengthened shared centre moderate ground
for more consensual day to day politicking..
maybe helping keep extremes in check...

.. and a simpler more definite two main party 'either/or' choice at elections...???

well.. what do I know.. I'm just a bloke with opinions...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:36 PM

Isn’t that where the Lib-Dems came from?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:55 PM

BWM - I could live with a two party system..

But I'm fairy convinced that whatever they say in public about a "strong Opposition party"
too many right wingers would prefer a ONE party political system..
..or even a NO party monarchy, or Empire...???????

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 01:56 PM

The Lib Dems did come from Centrist Labour MPs leaving when The Militant Tendency group were strong and joining the Liberal party. What happened then was that the Moderate Left, under Neil Kinnock, took back control of the Labour party which led to Tony Blair's Land slide victory in the 90s.

Momentum has control of the party now, at the local level and at the top of the party tree. It's hard to see how they can be removed, unless they themselves acknowledge that their goals are unattainable and give back power to the center. If pigs can really fly like that, what will we do for bacon?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 02:07 PM

Thanks, Stanron. We disagree most strongly on politics but you can at least post your views without the recent taunts and flames. Most of the time ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 02:38 PM

That’s what I thought Stan. All a bit hazy now though.

Unfortunately, the Lib-Dems completely blew it for me when they betrayed my trust by joining in coalition with the Tories in 2010. Until 2015 I’d never voted Labour in my life, but I refused, and still refuse, to vote for the party who sold out to the Tories, and my strong Sense of self-respect ensures that I have never, and will never, voted Self-Servative.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:11 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: Unfortunately, the Lib-Dems completely blew it for me when they betrayed my trust by joining in coalition with the Tories in 2010.

I understand that. That's why I think it would have to be a new party with new leaders and a new power structure.. If not New Liberals maybe New Whigs or perhaps Central Left. I don't mean to be provocative here but the circumstances that led to the initiation of the Labour party no longer exist. Political parties have not all changed to meet how the workplace, the electorate or the world of information have changed.

One solution is to let Momentum have the anachronistically named 'Labour' Party and design a modern new Party that reflects today's conditions. This could be seen as an opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:35 PM

Interesting idea, Stanron. My reservation is that we could end up with a political system based just on varying degrees of capitalism. Don't get me wrong here, I have always said that capitalusm, particularly when done responsibly with views on both people and resources, is not always a bad thing. But neither is responsible socialism. We need to look after those least able. We need an NHS. We need coordinated transport policies to save resources. We need to manage the release of greenhouse gasses. These things do not make a profit. They are not in the remit of the free market economy.

How would your centrist party manage the excesses of unfettered capitalism? How would it help social and ecological policies to its shareholders?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

Lol.......someone who posts "Daily Heil" and accuses another of "invective and flame bait" in the same post.........you couldn't make it it up , right Mr.Polshaw or should that be Mr.Polakow?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:50 PM

One major problem for the future
is too many traditional working class ex-Labour supporters
have, since the brexit referendum, by now had their minds too deeply polluted
by the worst popularist international far right internet and mass media 'influencers' ..

This does not bode well for any serious attempts to heal divisions..

Society has taken too far a step back into the dark ages
of eN eF/Bee eN Pee recruiting at factories, football grounds, pubs, etc...

A new 'New Labour' would again be too middle class,
A momentum new 'Old Labour' might probably also be too middle class...

This leaves dubious options for disaffected working class voters
when they eventually tire of empty tory promises...???

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 04:17 PM

Bobad ……………. does it matter what Dave's surname is ………. or do I detect a racist/xenophobic nuance in your post?

I strongly suspect the latter.

If I am correct it has no place on this or any other forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 04:28 PM

"Bobad……………. does it matter what Dave's surname is ………. or do I detect a racist/xenophobic nuance in your post?

I strongly suspect the latter.

If I am correct it has no place on this or any other forum."

Another thing that has no place on this forum is the publication by an anonymous member of the true, real-world identity of another member.

As low as it's possible to go, and a tactic beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 04:30 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: How would your centrist party manage the excesses of unfettered capitalism? How would it help social and ecological policies to its shareholders?

Do we actually have unfettered Capitalism any longer? We have workers rights, environmental protection, safety at work and taxation. Sure the Amazons and Googles of today defy national constraints but I expect that international politics will eventually get fetters on them.

Also all our political parties are tied to the NHS, social services, green policies and integrated transport, through the demands of democracy. You might loose them in a one party state but the idea of a Central Left party is that it would keep the Right focused on the center by being a viable alternative.

Pfr, I think a lot of the ex-Labour voters who voted Conservative this time would vote for a center left party next time if it were more like the old New Labour. New Labour got a landslide election victory at it's first outing because, for one thing, it wasn't too far left. Leave things as they are now and they may well vote Conservative next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:35 PM

We do at the moment, Stanron, but I worry for the future. How do you feel about the infiltration of your party by extreme right wing activists like the ones on here? I do hope your own team can keep them in check.

Neither my original surname nor my new one had anything to build do with me, bobad, but I am proud of the achievements of the family that have held both. My Father suffered at the hands of both the extreme right and extreme left. I have suffered at the hands of the extreme right who tried to mimic my identity both here and on Facebook. Mentioning my surnames assisted with that but I am not frightened of you or your right wing allies. Just what is it that you are hiding by keeping your identity secret?

Oh, and invective directed at object such as the government, the law or the Daily Heil is not personal abuse. Feel free to take it up with someone who gives a shit if you disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:42 PM

Al how do you feel about the tactics of your new found friends? Do you not think that the type of right wing dirty trick that you and I have been subjected to, that is still going on here, deserves your contempt as much as anything that Steve or I say on Mudcat? Or are you now firmly under the spell of the spin doctors?

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 06:56 PM

What's all this about your name? I seem to have missed that.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 07:45 PM

Does DtG know what Bobad's surname is? It seems like a really stupid argument, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 02:43 AM

I don't, Jeri, and I really couldn't care less.

You didn't miss much, Stanron. See

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: bobad - PM
Date: 28 Dec 19 - 03:49 PM

I have no idea what he was trying to achieve.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 04:28 AM

" As you never have anything constructive or remotely sensible to say, that's the best suggestion I have for keeping you mercifully quiet and relieving us of your profound stupidity. Hope this helps."

The bottle bank near you must do a roaring trade! and a teetotal New Year to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 05:46 AM

Any chance of you responding to the challenge which was in response to your post:

"I can find thousands of posts from the lefties that give the lie to that statement. They have still not been deleted!"

So, come on, show then to us and please don't post anything else until you do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 06:48 AM

So much for the Conservative party becoming more moderate

5000 from the far right have joined the Tories

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 07:00 AM

No surprise, is it.
As the old song says, “You ain’t seen nothin’ yet!”.
No doubt our Tommy Robinson fanboi will be creaming his underpants.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 06:05 PM

An interesting piece here from today's Guardian, in which the future battlegrounds of the Brexit campaign are discussed.

Johnson will find it very difficult to carry out his Brexit plans without damaging those very areas who abandoned traditional Labour allegiances and, out of the blue, gave him his big majority. It's going to be an interesting few years (assuming he lasts that long, and that's by no means a given).

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 19 - 09:11 PM

He can't find thousands of those posts, Raggytash, because there aren't thousands of those posts or anything like. He's a liar. Not only that, he's a put-up job. His strings are pulled by an extreme-right group and he hasn't got the balls either to come clean about that (note that he never denies it, because he can't) or to actually express any opinions of his own (which wouldn't be worth a fart in a spacesuit in any case). Christ alone knows why our mods, who generally do a damn good job, can't just cancel his membership as they did with akenaton and Teribus, who look almost like fluffy kittens alongside him. Let him confine his postings as a guest in the music section. In fact, he knows bugger all about that either. I came back here after the latest shutdown to defend SRS against his stupid claim that she didn't have the first understanding of democracy. Somebody saved me the trouble by deleting the post. There'll be a next time!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 02:56 AM

Keep it up lads. You make my point most admirably.If we assume a mere 5% of the cabal posts are flames and insults, as the 2 members immediately above, then the combined postings of 60,000 provide 3000. Your time would be more usefully spent kicking Unite and Momentum out of the Labour party.
As long as they remain Labour will continue to shrink.
From my point of view it is a trend to be encouraged, Compo's Clowns are not even a viable opposition party any longer.
What a glorious start to the New Year! Brexit beckons. After all Bojo was elected on the mantra "Get Brexit Done". I don't fink he will dare break that pledge. After all the people's vote quite clearly said: "Out brothers, OUT!"

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 03:44 AM

How about kicking Britain First out of the Tory party?

Motes, eyes and beams spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 05:23 AM

"If we assume a mere 5% of the cabal posts are flames and insults, as the 2 members immediately above, then the combined postings of 60,000 provide 3000."

Feeble, based on fake assumptions (it's what liars do) and in no way does it respond to your vacuous claim about those "thousands of posts." Not good enough. I want those posts listed, chapter and verse, all of them. If you can't do this, which you can't of course, I suggest you desist from making stupid claims based on falsehoods. I'm calling you out here. Piss or get off the pot, and stop being so bloody dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 05:28 AM

What I really don't understand is why anyone would continue to fight the elect Bozo and leave the EU fight when it has already been won. The moderation team have, quite rightly, said we need to limit the number of polit-UK threads so they can monitor them more easily. The election is finished. We are going to leave the EU. This thread is about broken pledges and I would be happy for any off topic posts to be removed. I would also be happy if anyone posted reasons why the pledges have been broken or even how well the new administration is doing in reply. If that ever happens. But no one should be surprised if off topic blatant flame bait is deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 05:40 AM

Hear, hear Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 07:32 AM

This is absolutely ridiculous. A Moderator has decreed that there should only be one UK political thread. That, in itself, is not ridiculous but the thread has a title that is politically biased and the faction in favour of the bias insist we keep to the title's subject!

Could the Moderator in question change the thread title to something like 'The Only Allowed UK Political Thread' or an equivalent?

I would like to discus the upcoming Labour party leadership election. No need for a fictionally biased thread title there. The subject may well be a source of embarrassment for Labour Supporters and merriment for it's opponents but the results will have a significant affect on UK political future.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 07:43 AM

It is completely up to the moderators what they allow on the site, but for my tastes I would prefer discussions on Labour's leadership debates and what the government does as separate threads. Mixing them together in the same thread would be very confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 09:19 AM

The punk rock ethic of short sharp and effective comes to mind...

Any of 'our' political threads seriously needs a time and posts limit,
to keep them on track, unrepetetive, and readable...
[with at least some self disciplined effort to try to reach sensible debated conclusions...]

So let's try not to be boring old gits...

To become such is anathema to punk rockers,
even though the surviving originals from 1976/77
are now knocking on 65 to over 70...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Government Pledges: B. Johnson's govt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 09:20 AM

The mods' standpoint on excessive UK political threads is perfectly respectable. The Labour leadership contest is not yet properly underway. When it is, I'm sure that this one could be suspended. After all, Johnson has at least five years to break all his pledges. There's plenty of time. And the suggestion that this is biased whereas a Labour leadership thread wouldn't be is just laughably disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 12:56 PM

I did suggest in my opening post that this topic could run for some time.

I also suggested that many of the pledges of the Johnson government would be rescinded, ignored or denied over the next five years.

In their first week in office at least three of their pledges had been put in doubt.

I would be grateful if the thread could be limited to that subject and that subject alone.

If anyone would like to start a thread to discuss the future of the Labour party I'm sure most of them could manage that but it is not a subject for this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:13 PM

Spot on, Raggy. A thread on the Labour leadership will follow shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Iains
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:19 PM

Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, DStJ, PC, FRS, HonFRSC is looking at the antics on this thread and laughing herself silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:26 PM

Folks up north will be waking up in 2020 with hangovers..
.. and maybe a few emerging nagging doubts about what they did..???

So what is the electorial equivalent of 'Buyers Remorse'...???

At least there is some consumer protection covering return and exchange of impulse purchases
within a stated period after rashly clicking 'Buy Now'...

Well done up north.. you are lumbered with Boris now,
and you won't even be able to quickly get rid of him on ebay...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:31 PM

"Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, DStJ, PC, FRS, HonFRSC is looking at the antics on this thread and laughing herself silly."

Well, she did completely lose her marbles towards the end...
A sad fate shared by perhaps a majority of elderly tories...???


Just the kind of minds we need running a modern forward looking nation...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:43 PM

I don't know about anyone else but I'm still waiting for evidence of thousands of posts detailing " that invective and flame bait" from Lefties.

Come on iaians, where is your evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:54 PM

Raggy - he's probably still waiting for the research unit in the USA,
Russia, or a grubby stale semen reeking public school dorm,
or wherever,
to supply him with the necessary script...

He's just waffling playing for time until then...

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 02:40 PM

Well it would be a very good idea if he could just shut his mouth until he can substantiate his claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 02:54 PM

Good heavens, a late addition to Mr Johnson’s NYHL!

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 05:13 PM

I note the change of thread title (it's a bit clumsy but hey ho). Whilst I think that we Brits should respect the fact that this is not a UK website and should definitely refrain from starting excessive numbers of new political threads, it would be a shame if we were overly constrained in a way that doesn't seem in keeping with the laissez-faire ethos of the forum. We should also reflect, as should the moderators, on the fact that almost all the current trouble in this part of the board is stirred up by one individual. Depends on what kind of place we want this to be, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 05:39 PM

If everybody would for the love of god ignore that one individual, there wouldn't be any 'trouble'!

And yes, DMcG and pfr, I'm including you in 'everybody'. There is no conceivable benefit in attempting to engage in an intellectual exercise with one who has neither (a) intellect, nor (b) any interest in debate, and who maintains a presence here simply to make mischief

Subject: RE: BS: Broken Govt Pledges: 1 UK Political thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 06:38 PM

Teamwork.. comrades.. together we will build a new socialist utopia..

..ermmm.. but not until Thursday, it's still the xmas/new year holiday..

..actually might as well make it a long weekend and give it a good start on Mon.. errrmm Tuesday.. afternoon maybe...