Origins of Carrickfergus

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SICK YOUNG LOVER
From: GUEST,an effusive Philippa
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 08:28 PM

I am as red-faced as John. I was fairly sure I'd seen "Do bhí bean uasal" in An t-Amhrán Macarónach, but after a quick glance at the titles list of a library copy, I returned to Mudcat and said that the song wasn't there. Of course, I didn't recognise the title "The Sick Young Lover".
And I'm the first one who gave the wrong surname for the book's author. I was writing on the spot, from memory. It's rather like confusing "Robinson" and "Robertson". There is a contemporary Irish author named Liam Ó Muirthile.

And I also muddled my words when asking about the air in Bunting's collection. I know that the two bilingual versions I posted are both sung to the same air as the English language "Carrickfergus", but I was asking what is the tune called "Do Bhí Bean Uasal" in the Bunting collection.

I've been back to the library to copy the lyrics of "The Sick Young Lover" from Ó Muirithe. As Annraoi says, he gives the original spelling of the ballad sheet in the appendix and gives a transliteration (if this is quite the right term!?) to Irish Gaelic spelling in the main text. It would appear that the sheet John Moulden has is the same text as given in Ó Muirithe. I notice only a few spelling differences and these could be typos, or else different readings of unclear words on the ballad sheet.
Verse 1) Moulden: "forer", Ó Muirithe: "foreer" Irish: faraor,faraoir (woe)
Verse 2) Moulden: "gra ga", Ó Muirithe: "gra gal", Irish: grá geal (bright love)
Verse 6)Moulden: "sway", Ó Muirithe: "swag" (In this case I'd opt for John's version. Notice the loan word "svae" used in the first verse of the first lyrics I contributed. Some time ago, Annraoi had to explain the expression to me; as I understand it means to come out the best among the competition. In an Irish verse of the broadsheet as given in the appendix, the spelling is rendered "swaugh". In both verses in the main text, it's "sway".

At Alison's request, here is the standard Irish as given by Ó Muirithe:

THE SICK YOUNG LOVER

Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom
Is do chuir sí suas dom, fairíor géar
Is do ghabhas le stúrach na mallaí móra,
Is gur dhein sí cuach díom i lár an tsaoil.
Dá bhfaighinnse a ceann siúd faor áirse an teampaill
Is go mbeinnse arís ar m'ábhar féin
Is anois ó táim tinn lag is ná fuil fáil ar leigheas agam,
Is gan ach mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.

I wish I had you in Carrickfergus
Agus ní fada ón áit sin baile cuain,
And I'd sail over the deepest water
I ndiaidh mo ghrá geal is í ag éalu uaim.
The seas are deep and I can't swim over,
No, nor neither do I have wings to fly,
I wish I met with some handsome boatman
To ferry over my love and I.

Is tá a fhios ag Éire nach mar gheall ar aon rud
do dhearbhaíos féin a dhéanamh di,
Ach mar gheall ar mo chéad searc do dhein mé thréigint
Agus í ag déanamh spré suas dá clann iníon.
Tá an fuacht is an teas ag gabháil le chéile,
Is an tart ní féidir liom féin a chloí,
Is go bhfuil an leabhar orm ó Shamhain go February,
Is ná beidh mé réidh leis go Féile Mhichíl.

And it's in Kilkenny it is supposed
Where the marble stones are as black as ink,
With gold and silver I will support you,
And I will sing no more 'till I get a drink;
I am always drunk and seldom sober,
Constantly roving from town to town;
Now when I'm dead and my days are over,
Come, Molly, a stór, and lay me down.

Is do shiúlas Éire is an Mhumhain le chéile,
Agus ar fad síos go dtí an áit go mbíodh mo ghrá,
Agus ní bhfuaireas aoinne ar feadh an mhéid sin
Do dhéin mé pleasin' mar Molly Bhán.
Mná na hÉireann is a dteacht le chéile,
Cé gur treason dom a lua ná a rá,
Is go b'é deir gach aoinne do chlois na scéalta
Go dtug sí an sway léi ó chontae an Chláir.

I travelled this nation in desperation,
Through Flanders and all Germany;
And in my raging and serenading
My Molly's equals I could not see.
Her golden hair and her limbs complete,
Her skin exceeds the lily fair;
It is what grieves me, that this fair one
Should take the sway from the County Clare.

Is táim tinn breoite is mo chos dheas leointe
Ó ghaibh an ógbhean tharam isteach,
Is gur iarras póigín uair nó dhó uirthí,
Is go bhfaighinn féin fóirthint ach suí lena hais.
'Ochón mo chrá, is mo chumha go dóite,
Gan an oíche romham go mbeinn pósta leat';
'Nílim fós is ní bheidh go deo leat,
For I choose to go with my own sweetheart'.

verse 6 isn't a translation of verse 5, but it's in a similar vein.
A Néill, ar bhain mé an dúshlán agus an spórt uait? Well, you can still entertain yourself comparing the three versions of Do Bhí Bean Uasal on this thread. And is there any reason to use the spelling 'déidh' in one verse and 'diaidh' in another?

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Áine
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 08:17 PM

Couldn't someone please translate the last verse of the lyrics given by Philippa in her post of 10-Jan-00 - 08:12 PM into Irish? That would give us something until one of the masters here give us the 'final' answer . . .

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 08:09 PM

This has turned out to be quite an interesting thread and is leading in directions previously unthought of. I can't really add to what I've said already as investigation is ongoing and as yet some problems remain unresolved, not the least of which is the decipherment of some of the Irish lyrics which might reflect some idiomatic usages or word-forms not presently current. As soon as the water clears a little I'll be back. Glad to have been of service. Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: alison
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 06:29 PM

Great job everyone....... Ballygrand never sounded right to me....

I'd love to see the rest of the Gaelige if Annraoi or Neil can sort it out....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 11:19 AM

It would be better if only one person did this - and - since I've been the one insisting that no-one heard it in modern times before Peter O'Toole sang it for Dominic Behan - it had better be me - I will in time, communicate the result.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Alice
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 10:44 AM

Thanks to you for providing another memorable Mudcat thread. To quote McGrath of Harlow's message,
"There's still the interesting question how the song got from 1830 to Peter O'Toole without anyone else ever apparently collecting it or putting it in print. "

Here is a mailing address to contact Peter O'Toole if anyone wants to ask him how he learned it.

Name: Peter Seamus O'Toole
Current residence: London
Address for correspondence: c/o William Morris Agency, 1 Stratton Street, London, W1X 6HB

Alice

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Henry
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:02 PM

Apologies all round, especially to you, John. Ó Muirithe is the gentleman's name. I must have been very tired when I misspelled his surname. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Once more the value of the Intenet has been demonstrated. Henry

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 06:05 PM

John

That's "O'Muirithe" alright. Here's a reference you'll recognise.

Click HERE

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 02:36 PM

Let me add my congratulations. Good work.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 02:08 PM

Peter T has the right of it; none of this going to libraries has any point unless it allows us to make our or someone else's singing of a song more likely or more artistically convincing. Now that I've been reminded of the "extra" English verse, I may start singing this song again; it has been for far too long under the shadow of the Clancys.

Neil and Henry: the text is on its way (like the cheque is in the post) - I had (with my very limited knowledge of Irish) read that line as Baile Cuain/Ciúin and had the same thought.

And, Neil, you shouldn't be so diffident; anyone's seriously intended contribution is valuable, as this process has shown.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:40 PM

Hats off to all the detectives on this thread. We illiterate peasants have been following this story with increasing anxiety. You should all be together in a dusty pub somewhere beside the library of your choice, handing the sheets around, buying and backslapping with each new piece in the puzzle. Meanwhile, in the other corner, someone breaks into a certain song. Keep up the fine work.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Neil Comer
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:05 PM

I probably shouldn't make my way back to this thread at this stage, but the phonetic Irish may shed some light on Ballgrand/Ballycran. The lines seem to read- Agus ní fada ón áit sin Baile Ciúin/Cuain ( and not far from that place 'Quiet/Harbour Town. Agus ne fadde, o en nat shoon balle coun,

John, Could you send me the other Phonetic Verse that you mentioned, and i'll try to decipher it

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 05:23 AM

Two things - first, to answer George - there are seven stanzas - four of which are Irish and three English; the Irish is given, not in conventional Irish spelling or the Irish alphabet but in a phonetic form using Roman letters and employing (mostly) the phonetic values of English spelling. Henry expresses it well above.

This brings me to my second point, a query. Henry and Philippa refer to the author of An tAmhrán Macarónach as Ó Muirthile. My copy of "A short bibliography of Irish folk song" gives the author of this book as Diarmaid Ó Muirithe and credits him with the editorship of a book on "The Wexford Carols" - my copy of that book says it's by Diarmaid Ó Muirithe. He has also recently compiled a book on the Folklore of Wexford but nowhere is he other than Ó Muirithe. Is he confused or am I?

I omitted to say that the last line of the final stanza is not in Irish but English:

For I choose to go with my own sweet-heart.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From:
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:12 AM

John, is the whole thing in "Phonetic" Irish? Or is there actual Irish words?

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Henry/Annraoi
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 09:10 PM

Great stuff, John, At last I have contributed something of value to trad. song studies, as opposed to merely performing and hazarding guesses- albeit informed ones. Henry

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:26 PM

To be suspected of having written a song like Carrickfergus is the kind of criticism that I'd think Seán Ó Sé, Dominic Behan or Peter O'Toole would not be wholly averse to.

There's still the interesting question how the song got from 1830 to Peter O'Toole without anyone else ever apparently collecting it or putting it in print.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE YOUNG SICK LOVER
From: John Moulden
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:13 PM

OK, you may all come round and see my red face - something I knew and had totally forgotten - and in consequence a lot of what I have been saying has had less foundation than it seemed. However, it does prove the worth of a forum such as this, almost invariably conducted in an atmosphere of respect and mutual exploration; each contributing and jogging hunches, aiding memory and combining clues.

Henry is responsible for my red face - he mentioned "THE YOUNG SICK LOVER" and it nagged me - a ballad sheet printed by Haly of Cork called "The young sick lover" - it's been a day long search but I find that I have a xerox of that very sheet, copied from the National Library of Ireland where it is filed in a portfolio by the key-word "Young" and my copy of it bears a note that it is largely Carrickfergus - I must be more systematic; I must be more systematic; I must be ....

It begins phonetically :

De vee ban osul, shol da lough lum
Es de chur, she souse dum forer gair,
[six more lines]

The second stanza is:

I wish I had you in Carrickfergus.
Agus ne fadde, o en nat shoon balle coun,
And I'll sail over the deepest water,
En naugh ne gra ga, agus ehe gallouh oum
The seas are deep, and I can't swim over,
No nor neither have I wings to fly,
I wish I met with some handsome boatman,
To ferry over my love and I.

[another stanza of 'phonetic' Irish]

And its Kilkenny it is supposed,
Where the marble stones are as black as ink;
With gold and silver I will support you,
But I'll sing no more 'till I get a drink;
I am always drunk, and seldom sober,
Constantly roving from town to town;
Now when I'm dead, and my days are over,
Come Molly asthore and lay me down.

[Irish stanza]

I've travelled this nation in desperation,
Through Flanders and all Germany,
And in my ranging and seranading,
My Molly's equals I could not see,
Her golden hair, and her limbs complete,
Her skin exceeds the lily fair;
It is what grieves me, that this fair one
Should take the sway from the County Clare.

[Final Irish stanza] (7 in all)

It thus appears that any criticism I may have levelled at Seán Ó Sé, Dominic Behan or Peter O'Toole was unjustified and as Henry says, given that Haly of Cork was printing around 1830 we have (with a certain amount of hindrance from me) successfully established a much firmer provenance for both Carrickfergus and the Macaronic. There are still questions - are Carrickfergus and Do bhí bean uasal really linked - do any of the macaronics bear clear relationship to one another - this is a question for Henry who is studying the matter. I'll send you a copy of the sheet.

The ones at Cambridge are not in either Bradshaw or Madden but among the series of volumes with press-marks SEL.2.93 to SEL.2.101 which are indexed in four card index drawers at the Rare Books Department. It would be worth getting them to look out the one printed by Troy of Limerick - differences are probable and will be revealing.

The text above begins to clear up the difficulty one contributor had in understanding the Kilkenny marble stones.

I'll confirm Haly's dates when I can get to a copy of the Bradshaw Index I cited above.

Sorry to be slow.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 05:12 AM

Henry, I've been to Cambridge and have notes on the ballad sheets and song books there. The two significant collections of Ballads are those of Henry Bradshaw and Sir Frederic Madden. Both are indexed by title only in the Catalogue of the Bradshaw Collection (Cambridge, 1916) - I'll look it up. Madden has half a volume of Cork printed ballads.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Annraoi
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 06:10 PM

Unfortunately not, John. He merely says that it is to be found in the University Library as a ballad sheet published by Haly in Cork.He gives another Cambridge source,but this simply gives the printer of the sheet as John Troy, Limerick. I know nothing of ballad sheet sources, but maybe these names are of some significance to your good self. I was over doing some research in Cambridge last October and believe me, if you don't know what you're looking for, you'll spend a long time chasing your tail - that's providing you can gain access to the Library in the first place, it's not like your local Public Reading Room. However, I presume it is kept among the MSS collection and the staff in the Manuscripts Room will help if they have a definite reference. They will not instigate a cold search for you, which is reasonable. He does give the text as he found it and it is very hard to decipher, even for Irish speakers, as it was recorded in "phonetic" script based on English orthographic values. Henry

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 11:39 AM

Thank you, Henry; but does Diarmaid Ó Muirthile give a real full reference to his Cambridge original?

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Annraoi
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 08:10 AM

Phillipa and John, I'm back. This may - or may not - be a good thing. I've been away from Mudcat for some considerable time, but dip-sticking brought me to this thread. Phillipa is quite right, I do have a copy of ó muirthile's book and it does contain a version of "Do Bhí Bean Uasal / Carrickfergus" but he calls it "The Young Sick Lover." The text seems to be a fairly complete one having 7 eight-lined stanzas. It seems to me to be a mixture of two songs, one Irish and one English. The Irish verses contain the typical internal rhyme patterns widely used in "amhrán" poetry dating from the C17 onwards and reaching its highest form in the C18. The English verses show an effort to incorporate these patterns but in a halting and inconsistant manner. Moreover, the "Handsome boatman" is too obviously the "Water of Tyne". Also, taking the Irish alternate verses 1, 3, 5, and 7, they make a unified song of a cuckolded young man. The English interpolations - and the more I think, the more I'm convinced that that is what they are - break up this unity and may show a society in a period of linguistic change and coming increasingly under the influence of English songs. Indeed one of the English verses is a paraphrase rather than a translation of the preceding Irish verse. Ó Muirthile gives as his primary source a broadsheet in Cambridge dating from the first half of the C19,. Thus the age of the song is pushed back by a full 120 years at least from its modern re-emergence in the 1960's. Among his other sources he gives another in Cambridge, one in the British Library, The version published in "Irisleabhar na Gaedhilge" March 1905 (already mentioned by John Moulden) and in "an Lóchrann" April, 1909. I hope that this is of some interest. Annraoi

Subject: Lyr Add: BHI BEAN UASAL
From:
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 06:38 PM

Here is another macaronic version; this is the one sung by Seán Ó Sé on the recording "Ó Riada sa Gaiety". My source is a booklet, Amhrénleabhar Ógra Éireann, published in Dublin by Folens (8th edition, 1971)

BHI BEAN UASAL

Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom,
's do chuir sí suas díomsa faraoir géar;
Do ghabhas lastuas di sna bailte móra
Ach d'fhag sí ann é os comhair an tsaoil.
Dá bhfaighinnse a ceannsa faoi áirsí an teampaill,
Do bheinnse gan amhras im 'ábhar féin;
Ach anois táim tinn lag is gan fáil ar leigheas agam.
Is beidh mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.

I wish I had you in Carrickfergus
Ní fada ón áit sin go Baile Uí Chuain
Sailing over the deep blue waters
I ndiaidh mo ghrá geal is í ag ealó uaim.
For the seas are deep, love, and I can't swim over
And neither have I wings to fly,
I wish I met with a handy boatman,
Who would ferry over my love and I.

Tá an fuacht ag teacht is an teas ag tréigint
An tart ní féidir liom féin é do chlaoi,
Is go bhfuil an leabhar orm ó Shamhain go Fébur
Is ní bheidh sí reidh liom go Féil' Mhichíl;
I'm seldom drunk though I'm never sober!
A handsome rover from town to town.
But now I am dead and my days are over -
Come Molly, a stóirín, now lay me down!

Can some Mudcat correspondent look up and find out if it is the same tune as the song? I found a reference to the tune "Do bhí bean uasal" in the Bunting collection on line in the 1855 writings of Dr George Petrie , who himself is well-known for his poetic translations from Irish to English. But I gather from John Moulden that this isn't the same air as the song we are discussing.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 06:19 PM

Sorry for typo above; that should have been 'by the Percy Society in 1846.'

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Áine
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 06:08 PM

Dear Bruce,

When my C drive crashed recently, I lost all my bookmarks. Could you please provide a link to or the URL for your website? Thanks, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 05:45 PM

I noted in the other thread (Feb. 1998) that Linscott's statement made no sense. I also requested, in vain, a copy of the ballad on the capture of Carrickfergus.

Quoting the 2nd edition, 1962, of Linscott's 'Folk Songs of Old New England', p. 87 (under the dance "Lady of the Lake")

'The tune "Come, Haste to the Wedding," of Gaelic origin, was introduced in the pantomime, "The Elopement," in 1767. This version is known as the Manx tune and was printed by the Percy Society in 1746. It is the basis of the Manx ballad, "the Capture of Carrickfergusby," written by Thurot in 1760.'

Garbled it remains (As in the Fiddler's Companion index on the Ceolas website)

In the Scottish Mansfield/St. Clair MS, c 1785, there are two songs directed to be sung to "Carrick Fergus", the first being "Come haste to the wedding" (or "Rural Felicity", both of which became alternative titles for the tune), and another that I've not seen, "O save ye dear Towdy, ye're welcome to Dublin". There may also be a song to it under it's "Dargle" title, one song called "The Dargle" commences "How happy are we", c 1770, but I have neither song nor tune. What confuses the matter is there's a different (9/8) tune also called "The Dargle" (in 'The Irish Fair', 1772). To further confuse matters there's a song called "The New Dargle", c 1770, that commences "Come haste to our wedding", whose song and tune I don't have. For all the names for the tune see the Irish tune index on my website.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 03:51 PM

This is the gist of a message I will be posting in the thread on Carrick Fergus.

I mention, as does Philippa above a song about Carrickfergus to the tune "Haste to the wedding" According to Bruce O in the other thread this is "The Capture of Carrickfergus" by Thurot (a French General who did capture Carrick in 1760). There is reference to this song in Eloise Hubbard Linscott: Folksongs of Old New England in a way which led us to believe that the song was being ascribed to Thurot as author. I've just thought of a way round this (and we all should have thought of this - it is oral tradition we are discussing after all) - Instead of "The Capture of Carrickfergus" by Thurot, the song's title should be "The Capture of Carrickfergus by Thurot" - you can't say inverted commas.

I have a text of a song called "The siege of Carrickfergus" which was printed in Samuel Lover (ed) "Poems of Ireland" (Ward Lock and Co. London, 1858) - it is street balladish in style and can be sung to "Haste to the Wedding" I'll put it in the other thread.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Philippa
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 03:01 PM

No, "Do bhí bean uasal" isn't published in Ó Muirthile, "An t-Amhrán Macarónach". Which leaves us back to questioning someone like Seán Ó Sé, Rachel Ní Riada, Peadar Ó Riada, Tomás Ó Canainn (he wrote a book about Sean Ó Riada) about the Irish language song.

OIn one of his books, piper (engineer, singer, poet, author) Tomás Ó Canainn mentions a 1790 publication of a tune called "Carrickfergus" but the air is that of "Haste to the Wedding", not the song we know of as Carrickfergus or Do bhí bean uasal.(see John Moulden's message on this aspect of the topic)

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Bruce O.
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 09:03 PM

Those English lines in the 4th verse are in a song that A. L. Lloyd in Folk Song in England lists in his index as "The Water is Wide", although he neglects to give a title to the song on the page where to song is given. It's another conglomeration, and the verse in question belongs more properly to a song usually called "I'm a rover".

What is the age of the Gaelic text that Philippa gives? No documentation usually means there's real no basis for claiming any old origin for the song. John Moulden still has by far the most facts that I can see, and I've found that's almost always the case. Few can compete with him when it comes to history of Irish Songs.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Áine
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 08:41 PM

A Phlippa, a chara,

Why don't you try translating those last few lines to Irish? The words fit the Carraigfergus tune to a 'T' -- and wouldn't it be wonderful to replace what has been lost?

-- Áine

P.S. My 'C' drive crashed about a week ago and I've lost your email address. Could you send it to me again, please? And by the way, a chuisle, your pictures were beautiful -- and the party looked like it was a lot of fun! - Á.

Subject: Lyr Add: CARRICKFERGUS (Irish+English)
From: Philippa
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 08:12 PM

I have words to an Irish language/ macaronic Carrickfergus. Can we get further information Ó Riada's input to the song as recorded by Seán Ó Sé? I've long imagined that there was an older Irish song and that somewhere along the line (well before Ó Riada) someone who had heard a version of Waly, Waly / the Water is Wide grafted in English verses to the tune.

John M: our mutual friend Annraoi has a copy of Ó Muirthile, "An t-Amhrán Macarónach". It probably gives a date for its source of the text. And like O'Toole, Ó Muirthile himself could be contacted in case he has information.

Incidentally, the photocopy I was given of the macaronic text is titled "Carrickfergus" (not "Do bhí...") and the title is followed by a question in brackets, "Cé a chum?", meaning "who composed it?" This version is barely macaronic; it only has English in the last of the 4 verses. It's a love song, but the lyrics don't mention Carrickfergus or Kilkenny or a boatman. Places mentioned include Munster, County Clare and Howth (Beann Éadair)

Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom,
's chuir sí suas díom fóraíl ghéar;
Do ghabhas lastuas di sna bailte móra
Mar go dtug sí svae ['sway'] léi os comhair an tsaoil.
Ach dá bhfaighinnse a ceann siúd faoi áirsí an teampaill,
Do bheinn gan amhras ar m'ábhar féin;
Ach anois táim tinn lag 's gan fáil ar leigheas agam.
Is go mbeidh mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.

Do shiúlaíos Éire is an Mhumhain le chéile
Is cois Beann Éadair ag lorg mná,
Is ní fhaca éinne ar fhaid an méid sin
Do dhein mé phléasáil ach mo Mhalaí Bán.
Mná na hÉireann do chur le chéile
Is nach mór an t-aeraíocht dom san a rá;
'Sé dúirt gach éinne a chonaic mo spéirbhean.
Go dtug sí svae léi ó Chontae an Chláir.

Tá an ghrian ag imeacht is tá an teas ag tréigean
Is an tart ní féidir liom féin do chlaoi,
Mar go bhfuil an geall orm ó Shamhain go Féabhraí
Is ní bheidh sí reidh liom go dtí Lá Mhichíl;
Ach geallaim féin daoibh nach mar gheall ar an méid sin
A d'iontaíos féinig i gcoinne na dí,
Ach mar gheall ar mo chéad searc a dhein mé thréigean -
Chuaigh sí ag bailiú déirce dá clann iníon.

Agus táim tinn breoite is mo chos dheas leonta
Ó ghabh an ógbhean úd tharam isteach;
D'iarras póigín uair nó dhó uirthi,
For I'd long to roam with my own sweetheart.
For I'm tired of drinking and I'm seldom sober!
I'm a constant rover from town to town!
But now I'm dying and my days are over -
Come Malaí, a stóirín, and lay me down!

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 09:15 AM

Martin, this time I am in agreement with all that you say - Peter O'Toole is still alive, I think - could he be asked?

I'm sorry to have started the herring about McAlpine's Fusiliers. There is a curiosity in the Dubliner's acknowledgement of Dominic Behan - it is said to be copyright by Essex Music - This is the company which published "Irish Sings" - but McA is not in that book, nor in Dominic's other songbook "The Singing Irish" which was published in 1967 by Scott Solomon, London. Did Dominic publish other books - individual songs were in 101 Scottish Songs and in the second Rebel's Ceili Song Book - but I've been aware of no other songbooks by him.

I'm going to transfer this query to a separate thread so that we may benefit from the knowledge of those who have not been following this one.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 05:56 AM

John

I've just had a look at "Ireland Sings" - I'd never noticed the song before. Behan's notes seem to suggest that he wrote the second verse of his 3 verse set, having collected the others from O'Toole. It's not like him to be so generous in his acknowledgement of sources! In fact it would rather ironic if DID write it and were not recognised for it.
That second verse mentions "Bredeen Vesey" as the poet's love. This looks like a nod to "Bridín Béasach" , a Raftery poem of which Mrs. Costelloe collected a long version as a song (JIFSS XVi, 56).
So - where did O'Toole get it?

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Brakn
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 08:51 PM

Re McAlpine's Fusiliers
I do that song and a couple of years ago someone stopped me when I said that it was written by Dominic Behan. This person maintained that it was written by a navi, who had been working in England, called Darkie McClafferty and that Dominic Behan had wrongly taken the credit.

Mick Bracken

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Mikal
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 07:50 PM

Okay, sorry I was a bit vague in my post. Uncle Joe said he had heard it sung in Gaelic in the army during WWII, in the 40's. The tune was not quite the same though.

My father's tapes, (he did not sing, but left family history for us on cassette before he died, has him singing a snippet of the Gaelic, but his ability to carry a tune is highly suspect. I cannot tell from the tape if he is singing the tune "Carrickfergus" or "The Old Rugged Cross"! (Hey, the old guy had no voice to speak of!)

A quick "ask around" of the family found no one who currently knew the words Uncle Joe sang in Gaelic, and only a few of the older ones and I remembered him singing it at all. However, the two lines I posted are correct to his version.

Another myth we may never track down. Hmmmmm…

Mikal

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 04:00 PM

John - I thought it was certain Dominic had written McAlpine's Fusiliers? The Dubliners even credit it to him in their songbook. (Sorry about thread creep - should we start a new thread on this?) - Susanne

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:44 AM

Yes, and to you and Josie. Will you be in Wexford at the beginning of February?

You're right about my being puzzled - I can discover nothing earlier than Dominic and any indication which might lead to an earlier origin either for words or music looks spurious. Further, I'm ready to bet that the Clancy Bros got it from D and that everybody else's version derives from them - including the rash of additional verses which have appeared.

Incidentally (watch the tangent) Dominic Behan sang, on the same 1961 record "The Irish Rover" a song which he called "McAldine's Fusileers" and which began "As down the glen came McAldine's men .." What are the odds that this is the first appearance of this song too?

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:35 AM

John

I share your agnosticism, overall. I remain puzzled - but then - so do you!

Regards

p.s. Happy new year!

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 08:14 PM

My disagreement with Martin is on account of his saying that the evidence I cite regarding "Do bhí bean uasal" suggests that Carrickfergus is older than we have been able to prove. I'm agnostic in this area.

To clarify the material in the Irtrad-l archives. The first two references are to a tune, a dance tune known in various forms as "The Lady of the Lake" "The small pin cushion" or "Haste to the Wedding" - it is also associated with a Manx song, sometimes (however, unlikely this may seem) attributed to the French General Thurot called "The Capture of Carrickfergus" - thus the tune is also known by the name Carrickfergus. However, on playing over the version in Eloise Hubbard Linnscott's "Folk Songs of Old New England (DoverPublications Inc, New York, 1993) (pages 87-88) it proves to be a version of the Dance/Song Tune "Haste to the Wedding" and has no connection with "I wish I was in Carrickfergus.

The third reference is the air we would all recognise as Carrickfergus but it has no information about source or origin and takes our inquiry no further.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:45 PM

I'm afraid I'm no wiser - do either of the tunes resemble the one we're discussing?

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 06:42 PM

John

Disagree about what? Apart perhaps from Mikal's comments above, we're still no further back than about 1960.It would probably halp if we separated tune and words but we're still not getting very far.

Regards

p.s. Now I'll go and look up Aine's IRTRAD links!

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 01:52 PM

This is a very interesting thread. Twenty years ago, a German 'authority' on the Irish language and Irish songs assured her readers, in the magazine 'Folk Michel', that it was a macaronic song whose meaning got lost if you left out the Irish verses. John's research gave me second thoughts about the extent of her expertise … - Susanne

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Áine
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 12:14 PM

Aren't you the clever article, Peter! Don't I know that there are as many opinions about where an Irish song comes from than birds in the sky! Notice that I said 'acceptable answer' -- I know too well that we'll never come up with a 'final' one -- and isn't that a large part of the fun in it!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 12:10 PM

Um, Aine, if you expect to be relieved of your battiness by a resolution of the origins of almost any Irish song, you are already too far gone to be helped....
top of the mornin' to you, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Áine
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 10:05 AM

Good morning, everyone! I did a search on the IRTRAD-L archives and came up with some interesting (in my humble opinion) stuff. This question of the origin of this song is beginning to make me a little 'batty'. I hope we can find an acceptable answer soon. -- Áine

IRTRAD-L archives -- January 1998 (#795) [Two ABC formats]

IRTRAD-L archives -- January 1998 (#824) [Discusses Carrickfergus and The Dargle]

IRTRAD-L archives -- January 1998 (#825) [another version of the tune in ABC]

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Áine
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 09:59 PM

In 'Love Songs of The Irish' selected and edited by James N. Healey, Mercier Press, 1977, Mr. Healey has this to say about the song 'Carrigfergus' (his spelling) '... this song is ... of uncertain origin, and, in the various forms in which it is heard, incomplete. Nevertheless the effect of sadness comes over well -- from the air and an interesting obscurity in the words.' He gives the air as being 'traditional'.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Mikal
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 08:12 PM

My Uncle Joe used to love that song, but there are lines he sang differently. Knowing very little of the places and times, I am unsure as to the meanings.

He maintained that "Carrickfergus" refereed to the castle on the coast near Belfast. So the line he used was "I wish I was in Carrickfergus, Antrim, Dunluce, or the Belfast plain."

His other line that he sang differently was "And in Killkenny, she is recorded; on a marble stone there, as black as ink." He maintained the song to revere a lost love, now dead.

As to the age of the song, he claimed it was written by an Irish immigrant, in Gaelic, but fairly recently, say in the early 1900's. He claimed the English words were common in the Army among Irish/American soldiers.

However, Uncle Joe told a lot of stories, and this may not be true either.

Mikal (Now I have this song in my head...)

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 04:31 PM

Sorry Martin, I disagree.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 10:55 AM

Yes John - which suggests Carrickfergus is older than we have currently been able to prove!

Regards

p.s. Unless of course, theres a third....! No.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 07 Jan 00 - 07:06 AM

I've now searched, with the help of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, for references to either "Carrickfergus" or to "Do Bhí Bean Uasal" (They turned up 154 references to recordings of Carrickfergus - confusion is easy.)

In the first case - nothing appears prior to 1961. Concerning "Do bhí bean uasal" there are two significant references - an Irish language newspaper of 1905 (Iris Leabhar na Gaedhlige - spelling not guaranteed) and Donal O'Sullivan with Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin (eds) Bunting's Ancient Music of Ireland (Cork, 1983) (no 72). The notations edited date from the late 18th to early 19th century.

In neither case is the tune given the same as, nor does it bear any but occasional resemblance to, the one well known as "Carrickfergus."

The version of "Do bhí bean uasal" remembered by Neil and Martin was sung by Seán Ó Sé on a record "O'Riada sa Gaiety" (Gael Linn CEF 027) which selected a concert given by O'Riada in late 1969. The performance intermingled some of the Irish words of "Do bhí bean uasal" with some of the English words of "Carrickfergus" and used the air of Carrickfergus. These two sets of words (if those in Bunting are a guide) are not related.

Given the differences between the tunes of "Carrickfergus" and "Do bhí bean uasal" and the lack of connection between the texts, I am of the opinion (unless other evidence emerges) that their juxtaposition by Seán Ó Sé was no more than opportunism - two songs for the price of one and to a tune everyone knew.

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Neil Comer
Date: 06 Jan 00 - 02:52 PM

I knew that I had heard it somewhere before. Thanks for jogging my memory