What's happened to Jim ?

Subject: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 08:53 AM

I haven't seen Jim Carroll for ages, hope he's OK.....I quite liked the old bugger, agreed with a lot of his views on traditional music....not society or politics, but at least you knew where you were with Jim.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 08:58 AM

He was suspended by Mudcat for a second time - this time until Jan 1st when he can reapply.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 09:28 AM

I have been in touch he is ok.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 09:32 AM

I do not think he wants to come back.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 10:35 AM

Can't say I blame him :0( but I'm glad he's alright. The thing about Jim was that he said exactly how he felt and that was refreshing in a forum which has become dominated by mealy mouthed social liberals who have no relationship to the socialism they pretend to support.
I remember as a youth in my YCL days,I was given some advice by an Oldman. "You better hope that your revolution never happens boy, as you and your friends will be the first for the Gulags.They don't like thinkers".   I laughed, but by Christ he was right!

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 11:03 AM

One person had it in for Jim recently. Was he removed too?
I have known Jim for over fifty years. We have had our ups and downs, but I still count him as a friend. I will be very sorry if he stays away.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 11:13 AM

”Was he removed too?”

No. He seems to have a ‘friend’ amongst the Mods, and he’s still throwing shit around in the BS section.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 11:32 AM

holy joe and the mods, werent they a sixties group complete with Scooters.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 11:36 AM

The Firemen from Fahrenheit 451.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 11:54 AM

I regard Jim as something of a role model and mentor to us younger mudcatters..
[I'm only 61..]

He aint the easiest bloke to get on with, even if you are trying to be a friend with him..
.. and the mood in mudcat is definitely less tense when he is 'on vacation'...

But he is still very much needed here...

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for the concern people
I honestly don't know whether I want to come back to a site that bans discussion on Walter Pardon - there's a principle involved
I have had concerns about Mudcat for some time now and considered taking them up with Max, but he seems to have his hands full with technical problems so maybe I'll wait for a while and brood

I have been following the Critics Group fiasco with a mixture of high amusement and irritation, but am having problems confining my responses to less that 200 pages !! (can't find the six pages of notes I originally wrote on that damned book)

During my exile, I have been astounded at the deep discussion on the state of o Folk Music in Britain in the form of articles - nice to learn that I'm not the only shit-stirrer on the scene

Delighted that the first shoots of our collection going on line on the British Library, NSA site have appeared in the form of the interview we did with the lovely Lucy Duran (sigh.....!)
We have yet to find out if they are prepared to put up the interviews we did
Thanks again for your concern

"He seems to have a ‘friend"....
I don't think that's the individual Mike was referring to Baccy
See y'all soon one way or another
- happy new year to you all
Jim

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:06 PM

Ah! Sorry Jim, a case of mis-identification I guess!
Happy New Year fella, take care of yourself.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:13 PM

I was thinking must be the Archers or something, but I was wrong

Hya Jim Carroll

Ray

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:15 PM

He did hold some very strong views on the depressing direction of folk music, but that was just an opinion, one with which I was in general agreement.
"God knows what the playground bullies will do without him."....this was the problem, "The playground bullies" made a point of winding Jim up to attack another member on BS, another member who happened to hold a contradictory view on politics and who had the intellect to defend his view vigorously.
The answer to the dilemma of course would be to bring back Jim and ban the bullies, but forum politics makes such a solution impossible.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:18 PM

Sorry, I didn't notice that the wanderer returned. :0)

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:26 PM

It's amazing what/who gets banned on here, and what doesn't. I guess that's the peril of too many mod's
Mind you, even mod's who don't toe that moveable line get booted too.
Which amendment was that?

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:31 PM

"He aint the easiest bloke to get on with, even if you are trying to be a friend with him."

I find Jim to be very easy to get on with. We enjoy a mutual respect and I would never argue any point with him in connection with his unrivalled knowledge and scholarship in the folk music genre (I hate "scene" and won't use the word). Our political sentiments are shared, on the whole, though occasionally we may differ on tactics. He has told me off on a number of occasions over dealings with the current troll (Iains: I tend to name names), and I him. The mods here, who I generally support, made a grievous error in my opinion when they singled out Jim for suspension, when the aforementioned troll has been allowed to get away with blue murder for many months and who is a far worse transgressor. As I always say, it's not my gig, but I'm pleased to be able to say what I honestly think. Shoot.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:39 PM

"He aint the easiest bloke to get on with,"

Steve - but then.. neither are you, nor I...

Jim is happy to admit, in his haste to argue, he misreads posts from friend and foe alike..

Which causes no end of unnecessary misunderstandings and confused fall outs...

----

Jim - welcome back and happy new year..

Long may you continue your passionate missions in life..

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 12:57 PM

there should not be a ban on discussing Walter Pardon,that is reminiscent of The Mad Hatters Tea Party.
When Mods enter discussions and start flaming and trolling one wonders about the purpose of it all, however mods are volunteers and amateurs who are mostly trying to do their best.
mods who send abusive personal messages, should take a good look at themselves, any mod who sends a message calling someone an arsehole is possibly in need of psychiatric help
perhaps an option should be the whole forum is members only, as a lot of abuse comes from anonymous guests

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:02 PM

there should not be a ban on discussing Walter Pardon

There isn't, Dick.

I'm sure Jim will dispute this but any of the mods will assure you that the ban is not on discussing Walter but on fighting about it.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:07 PM

I wish to god Mudcat had something like Usenet killfiles or Facebook blocking.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:15 PM

Get your runnin' shoes on lads, the bullies have arrived.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM

And you have just commited the thread to the basement I suspect, ake.

So be it.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:43 PM

"There isn't, Dick."
Yes there is Dave
He was moved from the 'Folk Scene' site by those who felt he no longer had any relevence to what is happening on today's folk scene, then, because of the actions of a troll Mike was referring to, the site was closed and we were told that it wouldn't be re-opened until the mod responsible saw fit
It was then I was awarded my 'First Time Ever' suspension (must be some money to be made from a song about that)
I was suspended for "whining about trolls"
If discussing vigorously about the things you believe important is "fighting about it" maybe I should have left along time ago
Walter was systematically denigrated my a troll who had never hreard him until he/she looked him up on the net - he was accused of being a fake source singer and Pat and I were told we had manipulated our twenty-year interviews with him
Unimportant so some in today's Brave New Folk World, I'm sure !
The said troll then opened a thread on me, dredging all sort of personal, largely inaccurate information about us - a friend told me the practice is called "doxing" (new one on me)
Despite requests, the thread was left open for three days
That is what I was "whining" - should i happen again, I might be tempted to respond in the same way

Whatever the reason for for Walter's expulsion, no traditional music site should ever - NEVER - involved the benefactors who gave us our songs and music
Jim

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:49 PM

Dave, take notice for once, of what Jim says

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 01:56 PM

I agree that moderators contributing to threads and still having the power to censor is just plain dishonest. But doing it and going to another thread and bragging about cleaning out "limeys" is a stunning display of arrogance. How can you expect a level playing field when two or three people have all the power and don't use it very wisely.
   For the most part, I enjoy Mudcat, but below th line is a swamp load of bullies..who regard everyone who disagrees with them as trolls, bigots..or any list of negatives, but it does save them the trouble of having to engage in the argument.
I fully expect this to be deleted.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:01 PM

I would rather take notice of the moderators, Dick. I suggest you ask any of them if there is a ban on discussing Walter Pardon or a ban on being nasty when discussing Walter Pardon. I know what the answer will be but as I know you will not believe me it would be better if you got it direct from one of them.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:08 PM

Best wishes, Jim, for a successful new year.

Will miss you if you find more productive ways to spend your time.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:17 PM

Well Jim I too hope that you do return and continue to educate us on the roots of this music, but I hope I can be permitted a little piece of advice, don't allow yourself to be manipulated by people who do not have your well being at heart....There exists here a small cabal who use your forceful style of posting to further their own twisted ends....I think we all know who they are without "naming names".....Ake

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:37 PM

For the last couple of days I have been working on a proposed CD which includes some previously unissued tracks by Walter Pardon. I am eternally grateful that Jim has been standing up for this outstanding person and singer. I really do find it odd to read some of the things which have been said recently about Walter, especially by people who seem to have little, if any, knowledge of just what constitutes folk music.
Nor to I forget that Jim and Pat are very experienced collectors, whose work will last for long after we have all pops our clogs.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:39 PM

The last line should read 'Nor do I forget that Jim and Pat are very experience collectors, whose work will last for long after we have all popped our clogs.'

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:53 PM

"I would rather take notice of the moderators, "
No doubt which side you'r on then Dave - I described exactly what happened to me - it seems you have two alternatives - it was acceptable or I am telling porkies - easily confirmed
Believe what you wish
Walter used to be the one of the most important figures on the latter haf of the twentieth century folk scene -the fact that he no longer has a place in a discussion on it says far more about the scene than it does about Walter

Delighted to hear of your new project on Walter Mike
If you haven't got his 'Steam Arm' please feel free to use ours - it's accompanied by his clocks, unfortunately, but still very listenable
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:54 PM

Jim's combative posting is well known to most of us but, having just looked over the 'MacColl Bio' thread, I can't for the life of me see why a couple of innocuous posts merited his suspension, especially when far worse stuff had been allowed on the same thread. Reminds me of certain footballers who get sent off repeatedly on the basis of their reputation, rather than for what they actually did.

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 02:55 PM

..as long as it wasn't "pooped our clogs"...

Subject: RE: What's happened to Jim ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jan 20 - 03:20 PM

There is no ban against Walter Pardon threads, or Ewan MacColl threads, or on any topic that Jim Carroll might be likely to favor. The trouble is, so many of these threads become "all about Jim Carroll" threads, making it impossible for the rest of us to discuss the actual topic of the discussion. This has gone on for years, and it was time to put Jim's domination of threads to a stop - so I suspended him for a period of two weeks. His membership was reinstated as promised, on probation. He almost immediately violated the terms of his probation, like a schoolboy testing a punishment - and so he was again suspended. These suspensions are not intended to be punishments - they are simply actions that attempt to stop Jim from attracting trolls and dominating threads with off-topic combat. It's not a question of Jim being wrong and somebody else being right - the fact of the matter is that interpersonal combat kills threads, and we cannot allow that. Yes, it would be nice if we could keep trolls away - but if one troll leaves, a worse one fills the empty space. We can't prevent troll posts before they're posted, and the damage is already done if we try to clean them up after the fact.

So, the lesson is this: responding to trolls gives them exactly what they want, so DON'T RESPOND TO TROLLS.

Jim is not permitted to post about Mudcat moderation, or about the activities of trolls. Trolls like Jim because when they attack, Jim responds fivefold and with high melodrama - and that more-or-less kills a discussion. He will continue on probation, and he will be suspended every time he violates his probation.

And since we do not allow threads discussing Mudcat moderator action, this thread is closed and the longtime troll who started it has been dealt with. If you wish to discuss Mudcat moderation or policy, do it privately. I'm [e-mail], and Max is [e-mail]

Thank you.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-

---

Somebody contacted me privately, complaining that I "also did the Joe thing of having the big last word." I responded, "Of course I get the last word. I take action as sparingly as I can - but when I do take action, I want it to be definitive. If I were to allow further public discussion after I close a thread or suspend a member or delete a message, I defeat my purpose. My purpose is to put an end to the problem, not to prolong it. But as I've said very frequently, Max and I are always open to private discussion - and we are able to speak much more freely and honestly in private discussion."

Many Mudcatters moralize about this stuff, but what I do is purely functional. I do what it takes to stop the problem. It's not a matter of what's right or wrong, fair or unfair - I do what works.

Trolls are like rats. As long as there is food available, they'll come around. If I kill a rat and leave food uncovered, another rat will be there in minutes. If I eliminate a troll, I will be hailed as a hero by the righteous horde; but another, unknown troll will come around almost instantaneously. Yes, those who have targeted Jim Carroll are nasty trolls, though certainly far from the worst of the trolls we've had. Known trolls are easier to deal with than unknown ones - when new trolls come in, they can do a lot of damage by the time we come to identify and learn to manage them. If I can control the Mudcatters who respond dramatically to trolls, I can keep the trolls under control, too. It may not be a nice thing to do, but it works.

If Mudcatters take a moralistic view of moderator actions, you won't understand why I do what I do. Moderation is not a matter of doing what's right or wrong - I do whatever works. I realize there are other moderators who are quite moralistic about what they do, but I don't think that kind of approach is functionally effective in the long run.

-Joe-