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BS: US war with Iran begins

Steve Shaw 18 Jan 20 - 03:16 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jan 20 - 09:55 AM
Mrrzy 18 Jan 20 - 08:07 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 20 - 07:07 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Jan 20 - 05:05 AM
Donuel 17 Jan 20 - 11:20 PM
robomatic 17 Jan 20 - 08:50 PM
Mossback 17 Jan 20 - 07:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 17 Jan 20 - 06:35 PM
robomatic 16 Jan 20 - 08:49 PM
Donuel 16 Jan 20 - 06:30 AM
robomatic 15 Jan 20 - 08:36 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 20 - 07:02 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Jan 20 - 05:54 PM
robomatic 15 Jan 20 - 05:48 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Jan 20 - 11:31 AM
Mossback 15 Jan 20 - 11:07 AM
Donuel 15 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM
Iains 15 Jan 20 - 02:47 AM
robomatic 14 Jan 20 - 10:22 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 20 - 08:46 PM
robomatic 14 Jan 20 - 08:30 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 20 - 08:24 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jan 20 - 05:57 PM
Mrrzy 14 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM
Donuel 14 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Jan 20 - 04:47 PM
robomatic 14 Jan 20 - 04:07 PM
Donuel 14 Jan 20 - 09:16 AM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 08:23 PM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 08:10 PM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 07:36 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Jan 20 - 05:51 PM
Mossback 13 Jan 20 - 05:38 PM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM
robomatic 13 Jan 20 - 05:16 PM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 04:54 PM
Mossback 13 Jan 20 - 11:25 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 20 - 09:59 AM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM
Donuel 13 Jan 20 - 06:16 AM
Mrrzy 12 Jan 20 - 10:51 PM
Mossback 12 Jan 20 - 06:54 PM
Donuel 12 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 20 - 03:56 PM
Mossback 12 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 20 - 01:29 PM
robomatic 12 Jan 20 - 01:25 PM
Iains 12 Jan 20 - 01:14 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 03:16 PM

Oh you do, do you? Would like to put it in its correct place in the rank order of names we call foreigners who don't look like us? Wog? Nigger? Paki? Coon? Spade? Nip? Chinky? Abo? Gippo? Dago? Paddy?

Hopefully, a mod will see this post, find out what provoked it and take action.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 09:55 AM

I say it is acceptable.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 08:07 AM

I would say he was assassinated (killed unlawfully for holding a particular and influential position, not for, say, his money) rather then murdered (by, in my example, mugger or impatient heir).

But I also don't equate injured and wounded, which many do.

Don't trust dictionary definitions (literally? Really?)...


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 07:07 AM

Unacceptable. Mods please.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 05:05 AM

Raghead arsehole will do!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 11:20 PM

Yeah I don't like titles either. Forget Ayatollah, Fuerher, President, Commander AND Chief. How about Supreme Shitbag, YOUR HEINOUS, Mr. or Ms Tie breaker.

Accidents happen. Iran has picked some scapegoats to punish already. I'm more pissed off about the deliberateness of flight 007 being shot down near Kamchatka with impunity.

Mossback is about polemics. At least thats where he parked his posting flag this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 08:50 PM

Really, Mossy?

Are you going for a statement (yet again) of how you dislike the Current Occupant, or are you really going to assert, like, in real world that a religious dictator who has no problem ordering the deaths of essentially unlimited numbers of people (not just ordering, they really die) is not nearly as bad?

'Cause that's going for broke. And makes you no less a 'winger' than the very sort of people you oppose.

It makes you a 'very stable' kneejerker, (assuming you really are going there?)

Also, forgive me but I don't know which side of the pond you're on, and maybe my lack of knowledge of where you're coming from is marring my judgment of where you wish to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 07:00 PM

Not half so bad as the asshole calling himself "The Chosen One" and very stable genius supreme leader of the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 06:35 PM

And as for the idiot calling himself supreme leader of Persia???????


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 08:49 PM

You mean, aside from that little problem where they shot down Ukrainian Flight PS752 killing 176 civilians with no involvement in the case?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 06:30 AM

The General and Supream leader were best buds. If policy and their relationship went hand in glove would be good to know. So far Iran's response without the General has been quite measured and dispositive.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 08:36 PM

Just saw it last night. Agree fully with Steve. Superbly executed, paced, cinematography, great score by Thomas Newman, not a criticism but it went easy on some of the mass horrors of the war. One of the main characters has survived The Somme, so it's transmitted in his behavior and actions. The real-time nature of this movie is rarely seen and takes an incredible amount of prep and coordination.

As a relatively ignorant Yank brought up by veterans of WWII I took the fact that there had been a WWI to be that it must have been a sort of 'warmup'. Only a few years ago the advent of a six part documentary series called "The Great War and the Shaping of the Twentieth Century" which set me right and was hugely informative.


Back to Iran. For those of us on the West side of the pond, Fresh Air is going to air an interview with someeone behind the fresh release of Iranian internal documents which inform the part Solemeini played in exercising Iranian policy in Iraq. It is apparently a shared story between an online site called The Intercept and The New York Times. I just heard this on the way over to the coffee shop. I'll be looking a the publications shortly, at least the NYT.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 07:02 PM

Off-topic, but it's to do with war. The film 1917. It's absolutely superb. Don't miss!


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 05:54 PM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 05:48 PM

I've taken out the mouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 11:31 AM

From Merriam-Webster...

”Definition of murder (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought”


What does this have to do with mice?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 11:07 AM

I just found a mouse 'murdered' in a trap in my foyer.

Did you really mean to come across as a total dickhead?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM

Meanwhile back in the New World THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES has accused me of being a traitor. In fact all regesitered Democrats are being called traitors. Pelosi and Schumer are pictured in Irainian garb labeled terrorist sympathizers by the Press secretry who no longer gives press conferences.

Part of this is reminds me how Jews and Communists were portrayed in 1932 Germany. Likewise they thought Adolf was kidding at first


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 02:47 AM

There would seem to be protests against the ayotollahs in Iran. Could exterminating the terrorist possibly lead to regime change?
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the drone strike it was relatively clean and surgical.
According to outside monitoring groups, by the end of his second term, President Obama had authorized 528 strikes with a death toll reaching somewhere between 380 and 801 civilians in Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen alone. And that’s believed to be a conservative estimate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes
Modern weaponry and warfare would seem to have outpaced the Geneva Convention on Warfare.
Whether the act was right or wrong the world is a better lave without the man


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 10:22 PM

Meanwhile back in the world dealing with facts as well as the re-interpretation of them, there seems to be photographs of the two anti-aircraft missiles used by Iran to dispatch Ukrainian Flight PS752 down in flames.

Canadian PM Trudeau has just ventured forth the opinion that the airliner passengers would still be alive had all this not gone down, so he is going back along the chain of events to finesse the allocation of responsibility. I alluded to this back along the chain of messages in this thread. Not a surprise.

I just found a mouse 'murdered' in a trap in my foyer. Not sure to which court I have to plead my case... It probably was not responsible for as many allied deaths as Solemieni.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 08:46 PM

He was murdered. In the UK, that's what we call deliberately killing people outside the law, as happened here. It isn't hard. I've heard self-defence used as an excuse. Well, when you kill a bloke going to an airport, minding his own business, ten thousand miles away from your country but within his own territory (yes, I know it was his friendly neighbour), then self-defence sounds a bit thin. See my post about all those others who, by your standard, might justifiably have been "taken out..."


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 08:30 PM

I am taken 'aback' by the many words used to critique my words but none to remark on my assertions. I am not trying to euphemize that Solemeini was euthanized.

-oops-


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 08:24 PM

You can't stop the euphemism, John. Despite all I've said, even robo is still saying "taken out." When I first met the adorable Mrs Steve, she accepted my proposal after having been taken out by me many times over a couple of years, OK, mostly to an East End pub that had been a frequent resort of the Krays (though also to the Bishop Bonner in Bethnal Green, to see Chas and Dave on many a Thursday before they got famous), but at least she can't deny that she'd been taken out...


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:57 PM

I wish people would stop trying to sanitise the Solemeini incident by saying he was ‘taken out’. It wasn’t a high-school date, it was an assassination, murder in cold blood - why not call it what it was?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM

I would kinda agree that fighting nazis involves ideology given that had "we" shared the nazi ideology, we wouldn't'a fought'm.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM

If you are in the US you have to say Solenami had it comin or you will labeled an accomplice to terrorists.

It takes 4-5 months to make, robo. I have no urge to do so for 20 years now. Its not addictive.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 04:47 PM

No nuclear weapon for Iran...but the UK has them & we allow our women to get cauliflower ears playing rugby - by which our forebears would have been disgusted!


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 04:07 PM

I agree with Backwoodsy's last comment. The legitimate reason to take out Solemeini was he had definitely done harm and was good at it and he was actively promoting more. We don't need the excuse that the Reps keep coming up but my point which was ignored was that the Reps may be aware of it and are stirring the pot in order to develop all the kneejerk responses they can and obfuscate and confuse the rest of us, and they are very good at that. My point is they may very well be aware and craftily promoting this, not just ignorantly messing up the china shop.

Donuel, have you ascertained good sources of psilocybin for the rest of us? Inquiring minds wish to know ;-]


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 09:16 AM

Pervatin and Eukodol (meth & oxy) were over the counter pick me ups in wartime Germany.

In the US you needed presriptions. Trump country is most ravaged by these drugs. Addiction is extreme.

Psilocybin is extremely non addictive and one day will be seen as a psychiactric 'go to' medicine.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:23 PM

You see
Drugs do change nations.
Germans took oxy and crystal meth into mental hell.
I see an enlightened society using drugs as well.
We should use psilocybin
and THC


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Subject: RE: BSS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:10 PM

To expand on why I said "I hope..." is that some people value property over human beings. Truth is, when attacked, they are usually destroyed together.

FDR knew of the 'camps' long before they were liberated by infantry.

What racist drug addled Germans did is still in the realm of possibilty in the future of mankind.

ergo I "hope"


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:36 PM

The legacy of the CIA is murder and regieme change. Those methods got out of control when they were applied domesticaly (Robert,John and Martin)
Thats not the way to make America great again.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

"I think there is a good point to be made here that there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was, where he was, and his past activities."

On that same basis, there is more than ample justification to take out (or to have taken out) Dubya, Ariel Sharon, Menachem Begin, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Tony Blair, Thatcher, Pinochet and Reagan. It's a basis I don't accept. And one more time. Why the euphemistic "take out?" What's wrong with kill, slaughter in cold blood, assassinate, extra-judicially murder, blow to kingdom come? Why can't you say what you mean? Is it about wrapping up the killing of dissident Muslims (as opposed to any of "us") in fake respectability?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:51 PM

”Yet I hope we killed Nazis for ideological benefit.”

I think ‘we’ killed Nazis, did ‘we’ not, because they were invading, occupying, and looting other countries, murdering those countries’ people, bombing the shit out of London, Coventry, Liverpool, Sheffield, Southampton et al, ethnic-cleansing wherever they went, carrying out inhumane torture and experimentation on human beings, starving and gassing millions of those they considered ‘sub-human’, yadda yadda.

Little to do with ‘ideological benefit’, everything to do with survival, n’est-ce pas?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:38 PM

there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was

By that logic[sic] someone should have long ago "taken out" - i.e. extra-legally murdered - Trump, Paul Wolfowitz, Henry Kissinger, Oliver North, Karl Rove, Benjamin Netanyahu, John Bolton (a.k.a The Moustache of Death) and a host of others.

We'd better get crackin' - got a lot of lost time to make up for.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM

Mossback makes some valid observations while I find the motive to murder for ideological benefit hard to take. Yet I hope we killed Nazis for ideological benefit.

For the US to undertake terrorism is a line we should not cross.
Especially for personal reasons.

The morality plays robo listed show our dilemma.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:16 PM

I think there is a good point to be made here that there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was, where he was, and his past activities. The Administration seems to be going overboard, and making themselves look rather ridiculous, by trying to come up with an immediacy to act that they cannot back up even on U.S. talk shows. They don't need it. The immediacy of it was that he was 'doable'. He could be taken out with others of his kind and no civilians involved.

There have been a couple of interesting incidents in fiction that have relevance. In "The West Wing" a terrorist who is a government official is attacked at an island refueling stop (I'm just going by memory here, I could be off on details). The U.S. President and his staff feel justified but are conscious it might have legal and political repercussions, so they are trying to do it but not be traceable. Ultimately they succeed with the killing, but not with the hiding.

In "The Good Wife" one of the legal cases involves a drone operator who takes out armed combatants but also takes out civilians. She is court-martialed based on her violation of Rules of Engagement.

Part of me is wondering whether there is actually a planned "Wag the Dog" effect in making sure that the operation is contentious and controversial so that we are ALL being played in that publicity is off both the Democratic primaries and debates, and also diverted from the Impeachment Saga/Soap Opera.

So the Reps are masterful and pathetic at the same time, yet Trump as an 'executer' gives that all-important masculine dominant trait of making his bones.

It may be that I have exhaustively restated Donuel's point without reference to surrealism. Only D can say!


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 04:54 PM

Without a doubt Col. North did it with a depleted uranium pipe in the Reagan Library while Miss Scarlet did it to the contras after releasing the hostages for US Weapons to Iran . The Reagan advisors/neocon/white supremacist/Restroomcans/Trumpists are indeed clever at murder most foul.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:25 AM

OK, then, murder by proxy if you like.

Exactly my point, Steve. Unfortunately, murder by proxy is something practiced, in one form or another, by most if not all countries.

Again, not to excuse Reagan - who aside from every other atrocious thing he did, brought us the latter day Republishit Party & Donald Trump.

In the current case under discussion, Trump pulled the trigger himself for PERSONAL, not ideological, benefit.

PS: quite a few of Reagan's advisors are now working for Trump....


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:59 AM

The Contras were backed and funded by the Reagan administration, Bill, even though they hadn't been supposed to have been. OK, then, murder by proxy if you like.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM

Why lie when the truth is justification enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:16 AM

The Defense Secretary said there was no imminent threat to warrant a drone strike, unlike what Trump says.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 10:51 PM

Is there any indication whether a human or a computer decided this particular plane was shootable-downable? If computer, it really is the Vincennes all over again.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 06:54 PM

Just as reprehensible, Steve, but not the same thing at all. The Contras were perfectly willing and able to do their OWN assassinations.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM

The Moron factor:

2 guys are standing out in a dark cold field with a couple hand held ground to air missiles. There is no radar or transponder equipement, just a radio. The airport is behind them so they know what commercial jets sound like. Fighter jets are 5 times louder and missiles sound hollow.
Their training was about loading, pointing weapon toward the enemy, hit the saftey switch and finally the trigger.
"DIDJA hear that? "hear what Akbar" "I see a flashing light" "You hear a flashing light?""Its a plane,its a missile" "well shoot what is it?"
WHOOSH What did you do? "you told me to shoot"
   -Typical moron factor-


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 03:56 PM

Contras, Bill?


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM

At least Reagan, miserable piece of ________ that he was, hadn't murdered someone to obtain an advantage in an upcoming election.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:29 PM

Cheers, robomatic. For the record, I think that neither country exactly covered itself in glory regarding these two incidents. At least in this case enough's been said to enable us to move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:25 PM

Steve Shaw:

Thanks for the additional info. I feel the same way you do about that incident. The horrible irony of Iran being at the focus of these horrible occurrences is not lost on me. May there be better times ahead.

Iains:

Technology is so far ahead of where it was in 1988 (when Iran Air 655 was shot down by the Vincennes) and with current technology that allows satellites to downlink to elements in the field down to drones, it is certainly doable. It is high time we get ready for an international conference on warfare and this should be one of the subjects. This is one of those blue sky subject that Donuel might address profitably.


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Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:14 PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/09/how-iranian-air-defense-forces-could-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-threat/#78c3fbe722e3
@Robomatic. There is no guarantee that a missile battery will be receiving transponder data, target designation will be the priority. Also it is highly unlikely a manpad such as a sam7 will be tracking anything but a heat source.
That is why no fly zones are designated.


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