BS: US war with Iran begins

Subject: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:23 AM

Trump ordered a drone strike killing Iran's Joint Chief of Staff 'archduke' General Solenami. Todays date will rank as the rapid escalation of our march to war. This not to say Iran has not made recent acts of war or that the General was not respondsible for thousands of deaths.

Here comes the war footing Trump has planned to win his 2020 prize.
Proxie wars, tanker wars and cyber wars are expected in the near future.
Happy new year.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:37 AM

If Iran decides to close the Straits of Hormuz this could create major problems, especially for Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:38 AM

Why do you care, the UK left Europe :^?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:47 AM

Europe is a continent I believe, it could be rather hard to upsticks and sail away, but am open to suggestions!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:15 AM

Brexit is hard. I'm sure there have been plenty of suggestions, besides Iran has only stopped ~4 tankers this past year.
Iran vows harsh revenge but what is harsh? A strongly worded tweet?
Naw, Iran is known for truck bombs. Will they hit DC or Mara Lago?

During our last Impeachment even Clinton launched an air strike on Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:26 AM

There are lot of interested parties who care about the Straits of Hormuz. It would not take very much at all to turn into a conflict zone.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:59 AM

"Why do you care, the UK left Europe :^?"

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 09:11 AM

Iran is playing the long game of war over US sanctions.
But wars are unpredictable. The killed General was the best friend and mentor to the Supreme Leader of Iran. This may not be business, it is personal now.

I don't think Trump has a best friend and mentor.
Unless its the author of 'My Struggle'.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 09:55 AM

Maybe someone repeated that old saw to Trump about "wartime presidents" always being reelected. A view of the then Obama war in Afghanistan, though Obama didn't start it (or alas, end it.)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 12:14 PM

If the US insists on ignoring/disrespecting the UN then the other United Nations must turn against them; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "There Is A UN".

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM

*Amos was right.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

Overseas hubris is a time-honoured way of getting yourself re-elected. It worked for Thatcher and it worked for Blair. I'd say it worked for Reagan and LBJ. It's far easier than getting things right at home. George Orwell told us this in "1984."

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:36 PM

And bush jr.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:37 PM

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:49 PM

'United we stand' stickers here lasted longer than Obama Biden stickers.

United we're bland, informed we understand.

All I know is that more people will probably die over the avenged murder of evil men.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:59 AM
"Why do you care, the UK left Europe :^?"

????

The UK is in the process of leaving the EU. (it has not yet left)
The UK will forever (presumably) be part of the continental shelf on which Europe is situated, so will remain part of Europe.

"The UK left Europe"
Total bollocks for both the above reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 04:22 PM

The trouble with you, Nigel, is that you are too literal with your interpreting. The whole world bar you understands the sentiments behind our exchanges (I'd bet). And I do tussle with Donuel at times so there's no conspiracy here. We educationalists had a category for blokes like you....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 04:35 PM

That's the problem, 'educationalists' trying to educate from a position of ignorance.
You claim to be 'well educated' and a 'scientist'. It's a shame you cannot put scientific rigour to your use of the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:36 PM

Don't tempt me, Nigel. I tend to ignore your faulty language but that can always change. I have tried to warn you about this before. And stop being so bloody jealous.

Anyway. The bloke taken out by the US was not a good man. But this is no way to go about things. You kill a big man in his own region and you'll reap the consequences. Stated without bias.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:32 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 06:36 PM
Don't tempt me, Nigel. I tend to ignore your faulty language but that can always change. I have tried to warn you about this before. And stop being so bloody jealous.

Go ahead. Any problems with my usage are minor, and accidental. (with the exception of deliberate misuse in song words). Your misuse seems to be deliberate, as you then try to justify it by claiming that it was 'whimsy', or that you were lying.
It is difficult to have a reasonable written conversation with someone who deliberately (or through pig-headed ignorance) ignores the standard usage of the language.

There is no jealousy involved. You have exhibited nothing of which I could possibly be jealous.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:46 PM

Egads My thoughts were almost word for word like Steve's words.
Nigel is a purist of sorts and might miss the nuance of wit at times but don't we all.
My dad was a political scientist so my take on the word scientist is more figurative. It is more of a synthesis of disciplines. Even economics has more 'science' in its modeling.

I told Nigel I sometimes like to make up language like James Joyce but after his literal take and extraordinary extrapolation, he was way 'off base' but I never called him 'out'. Well "You're OUT!" :^O

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:46 PM

Don't be silly, Nigel. It's way past your bedtime. See you in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:55 PM

"Any problems with my usage are minor, and accidental..."

Ah, but how would you know that? Most people who make grammatical or spelling errors don't know they're doing it. Secondly, your usage of that comma is incorrect. Just thought I'd mention it... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:58 PM

Another ploy from the Steve Shaw handbook:
If you've no good answer to the argument being given make a condescending remark in the hope that others will think you've made a good argument.

Keep trying.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:07 PM

Ah, but how would you know that? Most people who make grammatical or spelling errors don't know they're doing it. Secondly, your usage of that comma is incorrect. Just thought I'd mention it... :-)

The comma is exactly where I intended it to be. I write to be understood, not to confuse. If I had spoken the sentence there would have been a break where the comma appears.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran beginsBS ti sss
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:10 PM

'Pure' BS still smells like crap just like regular BS.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:12 PM

You're not reading the thread, Nige, nor picking up on its sentiment. You have a choice. Either stick to the bloody point (which, in world terms, is actually quite important), or else I'll take you to pieces on your use of English. Your decision.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:17 PM

Nigel, my dear boy, you seriously need to look up the rules regarding commas and the use of the coordinating conjunction "and" with regard to what follows that "and." Now don't say I haven't warned you about this stuff. You're cruisin' for a bruisin'....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:18 PM

There is a current tendency today that is committed by people who should know better. It is called "the death of expertise'.

Keep expertise alive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:29 AM

Anyway back to the thread topic. When taking out a military leader in a third country this is clearly an act of was. In these days of alliances
it is the duty of the US president to at the least inform his allies if taking action that will likely involve his allies suffering retribution.
Taking out the Iranian number 2 is not quite the same as a gangland drive by shooting. That is why others have vetoed the same action in the past.
The bigger the action, the bigger the consequences.(for all)

Personally I think it was an act of outright stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:50 AM

If I were to agree with Mr Shaw, then we would both be wrong - new year subjunctive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:00 AM

I suspect The Orange Neanderthal is a believer in the old adage, “All’s fair in fighting Impeachment and Elections”.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:07 AM

Overseas hubris is a time-honoured way of getting yourself re-elected. It worked for Thatcher. Really??????

Thatcher was elected in May 1979 with a majority of 43
The Falklands conflict to retake a British Dependency was from ?2 April – 14 June 1982(With the accession of the United Kingdom to the European Communities in 1973, the Falkland Islands Dependencies became one of the EU Overseas Countries and Territories under the Treaty of Rome, a status upheld by all subsequent EU treaties.) (Good to see our french allies selling exocets to the enemy!)
Thatcher re elected 9th June 1983 with a landslide majority.
Thatcher re elected 11th June 1987. Another landslide.

Hardly hubris but most assuredly due to success in thrashing unions,and success in foreign relations and with the economy.
I suspect only your goodself would describe you as an educationalist, others would apply more honest descriptors.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:51 AM

I'm hoping for a symetrical attack on our #2 and end escalation.
Since thats not going to happen perhaps the Pentagon would be more relieved by an asymetrical attack on our #1.

I assume Republican Senators would not hold Trump respondsible even if his showdown vaporizes everyone on 5th ave.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 09:08 AM

We have the same issue as we had when civil war broke out in Syria. Everybody involved is a bad guy.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iretwbn begins
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

I wonder if Jesus and Mohammed were in a room by themselves if they could work it out or if they had any problems at all.
The only difference between the two is that Mohammed took the plea bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:56 PM

Good riddance to this persian murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

Well, Bonzo, whatever your take on summarily killing a chap outside the normal confines of due process, I think you'll soon see what a bad move this was. Iranian, by the way, not Persian.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:39 PM

I prefer Persian.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:43 PM

Tom Tugendhat :-

Few military commanders have had the freedom Qasem Soleimani has enjoyed. For the best part of 20 years, Soleimani’s actions have been Iran’s foreign policy. Regimes he has backed, militias he has supported and terrorist campaigns he has encouraged have become the strategy of the mullahs in Tehran.

Soleimani joined the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps at the time of the Iranian revolution. Founded to defend the regime, the IRGC is separate from the regular army, navy and air force. It answers to a different command structure and runs companies and businesses that enrich its generals. It has been at the vanguard of Iranian military action inside and outside the country to keep the dictatorship in power.

Over the years the IRGC have crushed uprisings at home using their Basij volunteer militias to assault protestors and terrify opponents from speaking out. Abroad they have expanded their operations. The special operations unit, named the Quds Force after the Arabic name for Jerusalem, is charged with conducting operations to bring about the Islamic revolution’s goals, including the destruction of Israel. That’s where Soleimani has excelled.

Since around 1998, Maj Gen Soleimani has led the Quds Force in expanding from their traditional alliances with Hezbollah and others and used Iraq and Afghanistan to develop capabilities he would later go on to perfect in Syria. In all those struggles he has used three principle means that our own forces would recognise – supplying weapons, partnering with local forces and bringing specialist skills.

In Afghanistan, these partnerships were far from ideological. The Taliban, a Sunni religious cult, almost went to war with Iran in 2001 but only five years later, Iranian weapons were turning up in weapons caches in Helmand. The Quds Force shared skills too. Over the years, Afghan insurgents used increasingly professional shaped-charges to pierce armour and kill British, American, and other Nato servicemen and women. The intelligence trail was clear – the parts and knowledge came from Tehran.

In Yemen the same unit supplied rockets that have been falling on Saudi Arabia and bringing death villagers in the mountains. The Houthi rebellion has largely been a proxy war by Tehran’s military against their Sunni rivals in Riyadh with Yemeni civilians paying the highest price.

On Israel’s borders katyusha rockets that have killed civilians and been hidden amongst a Lebanese population terrified into silence. Both sides of the conflict have suffered but perhaps Lebanon most of all. In recent years thousands of Lebanese have been pressed into Hezbollah’s militias to fight in Syria. Many have been killed.

Skills transfer and terrorist training was not limited to the region but have seen groups spreading around the world. The 2012 attack on Israelis in Bulgaria, the assassinations of Arab nationalists 2015 and 2017 in the Netherlands and the failed bombing campaign in France in 2018 all point to a willingness to use any means to spread terror around the world. In 2015 this reached the UK.

Hezbollah-connected groups were found to have collected three tonnes of ammonia nitrate explosives in north west London and though the planned operation never took place, the warning that we here are not immune from Soleimani’s brand of foreign policy was clear. Even after we signed the nuclear agreement with Iran, the Quds Force saw us as a target.

The question now is what this means for Iran and what it means for us.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei’s rapid appointment of Soleimani’s deputy as his replacement masks the hole left in Iranian leadership. Despite his long addiction to opium he must know that Soleimani is irreplaceable. Over the past decades Iran’s strategy has been the general and his mythical status shows it.

Through personal relationships he has picked political leaders, backed their armies and funded their campaigns. If Bashar al Assad still sits in Damascus, it’s not because of his own skill, we saw how useless a commander he was in the early days of the revolution, but because Soleimani willed it. It is unlikely the IRGC will be able to find another leader like him.

Now Britain and others have a chance to reach out to former enemies and partners and point out that era defined by one man can end. The death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese and more can stop. The policy embodied in one man can end. But that requires some choices not only by the Iranian dictatorship, but many others in the region. This is a chance to change direction, let’s hope we take it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 07:33 PM

The "facts" of the case the Trump apologists claim are that they have "intelligence" that Soleimani was planning assaults on Americans or American installations. That can be said of any day in his life over the last two decades. Remember the last time GOP insisted there was "intelligence" and started the war against Saddam Hussein? This has the same kind of stink.

News outlets are referring to this as an assassination. Soleimani was an easy target for Trump and whoever on his staff suggested it, because he lived in the open, he was a government official who did horrible things as an Iranian military officer over the last 20-30 years, but he was part of that machine. Bin Laden and al-Baghdadi were always in hiding and aiming their campaigns at civilians. Soleimani probably should have been tried at the Hague, if it came to that.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:04 PM

Yes, a horrid man. As I said, everybody involved is a baddie. But there is more context than you're admitting to, and don't get me wrong, I still think that he's a baddie. But he was operating in his own region, unlike the man who ordered his assassination. He sponsored Hamas and Hezbollah, whether you like it or not two setups formed in reaction to US/Israeli aggression in the region. Historical, checkable fact, lest trolls wish to call me antisemitic. Saddam, Al Baghdadi, Bin Laden and even Gaddafi were all bad men. Not one of them ever brought to trial. Soleimani was not in the same league. He was a powerful man but not a leader. He was warmly embedded in his own nation, which believes that the US is besieging them. Yes, there is a stink, and it behoves us to reject everything that Trump propagandises about this. Killing this man was a stupid move. There will be successors who are no better.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

I really don't know why we need a government, the Leftwaffe here know all the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel for the ordinary Persian people.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM

the Leftwaffe. Magic!!

I do like a little light relief in a serious thread.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:01 PM

I'm willing to wager that Mrrzy, whose father was killed in the terrorist car bombing of the US embassy in Beirut orchestrated by Soleimani, isn't wringing her hands over his "martyrdom".

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:06 PM

Perhaps there should be another Berlin Conference" - this time to car up Persia!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM

There have been many past US administrations that could have taken a shot at him, but didn't, because there is a whole bunch of baggage that comes along with assassination. I included context, Steve, there was no "not admitting to" part of it. He was a hero in his own country and seen as evil be everyone he plotted against. But he did it from a political position embedded within his nation, he wasn't like Bin Laden, et al, who were pariahs everywhere they went. Trump pulled this stunt because the generals who presented a large number of options to address the embassy assault included it as the most extreme option to make the other suggestions sound more reasonable. They were apparently shocked that he chose this one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:40 PM

"He was a hero in his own country..."

Not according to most of the Iranians posting on Twitter - they are celebrating his demise. They also consider the regime ruling over them as foreign and are appealing for its end and a return to democracy and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:07 PM

That's exactly what I was trying to say, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM

A smarter person would weigh the repercussion of assassination against maintaining a messed up status quo. Trump decided to poke something snarly with a stick. I have no clue what the Iranians will do, but it won't be good. It would make more sense for them to do something personal against him (well, it's not the country, it's Trump and his collection of sycophant assholes), and avoid war, but who knows what's going to happen

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 08:31 PM

An early response from Iran is that they have more or less abandoned the nuclear deal. That won't stress out Trump, I suppose, but what a retrograde step it is. One thing we know is that, while Iran sponsors Hezbollah and supports Hamas, they have never physically invaded other nations. That can hardly be said for most of the nations surrounding them and for the western nation that sees it as its God-given right to interfere in the Middle East. That is not to say that Iran is any sort of paragon. It definitely is not. But if we continually shit on countries like Iran we shouldn't be surprised if we reap a whirlwind.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 09:28 PM

they have never physically invaded other nations.

They invade other countries through proxy armies that they train, arm and support, what do you think Soleimani was doing with Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis the commander of Kata'ib Hezbollah militia in Iraq? The same militia that was behind the attack on the US embassy. Iran also has proxy armies in Syria, where they ruthlessly slaughtered thousands in service to Assad, Yemen, Lebanon and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 09:42 PM

And the US fights and has fought proxy wars all over the place. And I suppose that if I remind you that the US gives around three billion of military aid to tiny Israel every year, aid which has supported Israeli invasions, repeatedly in some cases, of Gaza, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt, not to speak of air strikes in Iran, you'll call me antisemitic or something...

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 10:17 PM

For 2017, out of a total $49 billion in US foreign aid Israel received $3.2 billion. In the same year Arab and Muslim countries received more that $20 billion of American taxpayer money. The biggest recipients were Afghanistan with $5.7 billion followed by Kuwait with $4.5 billion and Iraq with $3.7 billion.

you'll call me antisemitic or something.

Seeing your need to insert Israel into a discussion that has nothing to do with Israel and your obsession with the fact that Israel receives US aid and saying that Israel "invaded" those places, which implies offensive actions, I don't have call you anything it's pretty much self evident.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 11:33 PM

Not according to most of the Iranians posting on Twitter I doubt you read farsi or arabic, bobad, so I can only guess that you're trolling, because this is not what is being reported in media around the world.

And when there is a possibility that Israel will be discussed in the thread, here you are.

Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 03:15 AM

Had the US and UK not replaced Mohammad Mosaddegh the 35th prime minister of Iran, with the Shah, the subsequent history of Iran would have been very different. The US backed Shah was deeply unpopular and replaced by a popular revolution. Iran voted by national referendum to become an Islamic republic on 1 April 1979 and to formulate and approve a new theocratic-republican constitution whereby Khomeini became Supreme Leader of the country in December 1979.
and you could argue it has been downhill ever since.
Around 90–95% of Iranians associate themselves with the Shia branch of Islam, the official state religion. According to official statistics, 75–85% of Saudi Arabian citizens are Sunni Muslims,
With the red flag unfurled over the Jamkaran Mosque it could argued that this maarks the fight between Dar al-Islam, for the Muslim peoples--and Dar al-Harb for everyone else whom must be forced into submission. Some argue this division of the world was corrupted by the Sunni monarchy of Saudi Arabia when they betrayed Islam by willfully becoming a part of what is known as the US Petrodollar System.
Perhaps looking at recent history through the lens of the link below explains many things
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare


https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/indepth/2020/1/3/does-riyadh-feel-threatened-by-the-new-muslim-alliance

All is not as it seems if you venture down the rabbit hole!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:53 AM

I note the sneaky conflation of military aid and foreign aid. I was at pains to point out that proxy war is not confined to just "one side" in all this. I could have mentioned Russia too. There. That proves that I'm not a commie either. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:16 AM

but am open to suggestions!

Hmmmm. The triumph of hope over experience - shot down in flames!

To be frank, Trump has had a few goes at creating a war. It is in his DNA to fire at multiple targets. It is the one tacktic (sic) that defines his MO. Create so many fires that you can't put them all out, and struggle with any single one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:55 AM

I suggest that few acts by the US could have turned the citizenry of Iran from protesting their own government and turned their wrath against the US exclusivly, but Trump chose one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 07:41 AM

First, don't forget that Britain and France had immense roles in defining what became the countries of I ran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, et al. after World Wars I and II.

Secondly, a recent decision was made to allow Saudi Arabia to make US "smart bombs" and the technology to do so has already been transferred.

Thirdly, with the decision by Iraq to require the removal of ALL US forces there and the statement by you-know-who to slam the Iraqis with heavy sanctions if such removal happens, Iraq will move to Iran for help. This will pit Iraq/Iran against the Saudis, and Kuwait and the Gulf States will get the short end of it.

Fourthly, the US Navy very recently decided to cut way, way back on shipbuilding in 2020 and has given up its plans for a 595 ship fleet (I think that was the number).

You can think of more, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 08:30 AM

Iranians, supporters of the People’s Mojahedin Organization of Iran (PMOI, Mujahedin-e Khalq or MEK), and the people of Syria and Iraq, are rejoicing after the death of the Iranian regime’s notorious General, Qassem Soleimani, who was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people both inside and outside Iran.

People in Iran and Across the Globe Celebrate Qassem Soleimani’s Death

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 08:46 AM

I doubt you read farsi or arabic, bobad, so I can only guess that you're trolling

There are Iranians who are conversant in English, believe it or not. Also Twitter translates posts, so please curb your condescension and your labeling of those with whom you disagree as trolls. I'm sorry for your loss.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 08:54 AM

As for what is being reported in the media this is what one poster who describes herself as "a proud and hopeful Syrian - now and always" has to say about that:

"Not saying a decent amount of Iranians arent upset about Soleimani. State propaganda can do that. But it seems lot of people dont know how this stuff works in totalitarian states. When Hafez Assad died his goons went into homes & basically threw you out in the street to mourn him."

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:00 AM

Then he joins the pantheon of those bad western men responsible for thousands of deaths. Reagan. Kennedy. Lyndon Johnson. Nixon. Sharon. Bush. Blair. Plenty of non-western men too, of course. But yer man in Iran, bad man that he was, was merely a member of a world club.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:14 AM

Bobad, while I appreciate (really and strongly) your remembering my dad, do not ever, ever again presume that I would be happy, or anything other than horrified, at the death of any enemy. I am a pacifist. This was a murder. I am also an atheist. This was not martyrdom. How long do we have to kill Them to prove they should stop wanting to kill Us?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:17 AM

Upon rereading, I am also not a she. But that was a lot less upsetting than being lumped with the revenge-seekers.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:25 AM

I think you misread my post but be that as it may I am of the mind that eliminating someone who is responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people and preventing him from doing so again in the future is a good thing, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:02 AM

I don't think I misread anything.

I quote: I'm willing to wager that Mrrzy, whose father was killed in the terrorist car bombing of the US embassy in Beirut orchestrated by Soleimani, isn't wringing [their] hands over his "martyrdom". [Close quote.]

Not to mention that he didn't orchestrate that particular bombing as far as I can tell, and I sat through weeks of testimony.

And if he had, I would still be horrified by his murder.

Accusing me of stupidity is hardly apologizing for presuming me to be vengeful. Or to speak for me as if I were.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:20 AM

"...I am of the mind that eliminating someone..."

Aren't words a problem sometimes. You like the idea that we can "eliminate" him. You avoid saying murdering, assassinating, blowing him to pieces, or even just killing him (add "in cold blood," which would be true, if you like). You don't say whether you'd have been OK pushing the death button. Just now I eliminated a spider from the bath. He's currently outside the bathroom window trying to get back in.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:33 AM

Interesting POV here from The Week’. It makes a very good point.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 11:36 AM

The article makes a lot of valid points.
But we are not privy to any of the details giving rise to the action.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 11:54 AM

I don't think I misread anything.

I should have said misconstrued. First off I never used the word happy which has a vastly different emotive impact than the words I used. Secondly you must have missed the quotation marks on the word martyrdom which, in this context are shorthand for so-called, the term was used by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in describing the killing of Solomeini. That you misconstrue my words in order to showcase your beliefs is dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:04 PM

Two observations:

1.- It must be a particularly virulent and perverse form of mashochism that compels someone to interact with such specimens such as BooBad & Inaines.

2. It would have been preferable for the future of the U.S and the world at large has the assassination scenario been reversed.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:06 PM

As for the embassy bombing it was carried out by Hezbollah with the approval and financing of senior Iranian officials. Solomeini was in charge of Al Quds foreign operations which was deployed to Lebanon in 1982, where it assisted in the genesis of Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:28 PM

You were willing to wager that I would not be unhappy (logical equivalent, would be happy) because revenge. Horrible attitude you have ascribed to me. Why not just say sorry for putting those awful words in my mouth? And assisting in a genesis of X is hardly masterminding Y. He was only 26 at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:13 PM

”I am of the mind that eliminating someone who is responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people and preventing him from doing so again in the future is a good thing,”

So you would equally approve of similarly ‘eliminating’ the leader of the regime which, for the past number of years, has been carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza, resulting in the murder or displacement of thousands of innocent people, and the theft of their homes and land?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:26 PM

But God is on the side of Israel, so I won't have a word said against it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:44 PM

Backwoods man, I would approve of administrating a hearty spanking to any fool who makes such idiotic accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:52 PM

Then stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:54 PM

Not just me who makes the accusation - there are millions of people all over the world making it, based on the wealth of overwhelming, indisputable evidence. As you seem unable to see the wealth of overwhelming, indisputable evidence, I can only assume your blindness and deafness is the result of your entire head being implanted in your anal cavity.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:55 PM

Some things never change

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 02:05 PM

Not just me who makes the accusation - there are millions of people all over the world making it

Let me guess, Corbyn's supporters......right?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 03:19 PM

The leftwaffe has spoken!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:59 PM

An interesting and informative take on Suleimani from Thomas Friedman in the New York Times. Opening paragraph:

"One day they may name a street after President Trump in Tehran. Why? Because Trump just ordered the assassination of possibly the dumbest man in Iran and the most overrated strategist in the Middle East: Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani."

NYT Article

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM

Gosh, this belongs in two threads, so I might put it in both. This attack in Iran has potentially nobbled the UK's pledge to "take back control." Trump has form. You can bet your life that the UK getting onside with the US over Iran will be an absolute condition of our getting a trade deal. We will go cap in hand to Trump. Hey, brexiteers, did you see that on your ballot paper? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:39 PM

Now here's something else that belongs in two threads: Who is the bigger lying sack of shit and threat to democratic government world-wide: Trump or Johnson??

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:10 PM

Evil men do not have to be master minds. Intelligence and evil are actually mutually exclusive. The skill sets of evil men are not genius, they are merely effective fear and distraction. Mr. Friedman you are becoming captain obvious in your old age.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:28 PM

DC was delayed by nearly an hour today since every military related site was on lock down with only half the entrances and egress open.
Backups were prolific and effected most commutes.
Airports are still the soft targets but have AR's displayed like in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 04:07 AM

We are all pacifists until someone kills our brother. Then the remaining pacifists are cannon fodder.

It is the way the world works. For religious zealots read greed. For warmongers, read power crazed aka greed. Not what we wish, but wishes don't stop bullets.

War is not pretty. But then as we are finding-out, neither is a burgeoning population dumping waste gasses into the atmosphere. Population is relevant - there is increasingly less territory and more neighbours to steal it from.

I don't suggest solutions, but like the "Great Stink" that got up the noses of politicians moving them to act on the pollution in the Thames............ Things have to get so worse before politicians act. Like I said "when someone kills your brother........."

Sorry Donuel I disagree with Intelligence and evil are actually mutually exclusive. Intelligence may figure much less, but can evade notice &/or capture. It can survive to reek much more havoc.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:39 AM

You are entitled to disagree with my generalized polemic. I too have reservations with the 'truism'.
Like,
The first casualty of war is not the truth but the comedians.
But in fact...
The comedian Lopez made a joke about an 80 million dollar bounty on Trump yesterday and the twittersphere is calling for his arrest by Secret Service.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:45 AM

The comedian Lopez made a joke about an 80 million dollar bounty on Trump yesterday and the twittersphere is calling for his arrest by Secret Service. Arrest of Lopez? or Trump?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:02 AM

You are a Good editor Nigel. I knew what I meant but your version is funnier.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:12 AM

Hopefully, Trumpelthinskin.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:21 AM

Bullshit, Mr. Red. We all remained pacifists after our brother/father/ husband/uncle was killed. We being my large extended family. If you turn to violence for revenge, you weren't a pacifist, you were peaceful.

And Bobad, thanks again for remembering daddy.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:46 AM

An urge for vengence is not vengence on a personal level but I can see the point how a crowd mentality can exaccerbate vengence.



An unsigned letter from the Pentagon that was full of typos was sent to the Iraq goverment saying we are removing all our 5,200 troops from their country and had several confusing contradictions. Today the Pentagon says it was a clerical mistake.

they need Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:21 AM

Reknown war monger with Iran, fired National Security advisor John Bolton is now in a position to take down Donald Trump with his Impeachment testimony.

The irony keeps rolling along.

Trumpirony - new 2020 word

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:44 AM

"Don’t believe Iranian propaganda about the mourning for Soleimani"

Masih Alinejad

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:09 PM

Another Washington Post columnist has an overarching view of the assassination and the repercussions: an interview on WNYC's The Takeaway

While Democratic and Republican leaders in Congress seem as divided as ever, the media portrayal of Iran shows the country united behind its government. But just how accurate is that viewpoint?

Journalist Jason Rezaian spent 544 days as a hostage of the IRGC, and today is weighing in on what that experience taught him about Iran’s leadership, and how the country could react to the killing of Major General Qassim Soleimani. He is also calling for a focus on how what comes next could affect everyday Iranians, who are desperate to avoid war.

Click on the 'Listen' button above to hear this segment. Don't have time to listen right now? Subscribe for free to our podcast via iTunes, TuneIn, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts to take this segment with you on the go.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:34 PM

Interesting article by surviving Iranian hostages. Hope no firewall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/06/us/iran-hostages.html

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:46 PM

Masih Alinejad is an Iranian journalist, author and women’s rights campaigner. She hosts the Tablet talk show on Voice of America’s Persian service.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 04:25 PM

Today the Federal goverment shut down at 1 PM and sent everyone home.

There are only theories as to why.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:13 PM

We NEED a song to rally around the flag and praise our leader.

Bush's Iraq war had the song 'Stand Up'.
I propose the song 'LIE DOWN' for the Iran WAR.

Courage duty honor-spoken

We call upon our soldiers in this their proudest hour
Our way of life is what we're fighting for
The flag that flies above us, forever may it wave
It inspires us to do our best each day

Its a good day to die when you know the reason why
As citizens we fight for what is right
A noble sacrifice when duty calls we'll pay the price
For Donald Trump I will give my LIFE

(chorus)

All is fair in sex and war is what our Donald said
You're not not alive until you're almost dead
These are the words I live by courage duty honor
The Democrats are ass holes and fully full of dread

Its a good day to die when you know the reason why
As citizens we fight for what is right
A noble sacrifice when duty calls we'll pay the price
For Donald Trump I will give my LIFE

(chorus)
So Lie Down America
in your blood and soil
where Jews will not replace us
God bless our sweat and toil

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:26 PM

Um, snow, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:14 PM

Thats a theory since the roads are only wet here.
To the west at higher elevation it may freeze tonight.
The security traffic tie ups are probably another factor.
I bet you got 2 inches?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:15 PM

Donuel. Do you not think the hostage taking in the US embassy in Iran and the recent attack on the US Bagdad Embassy might not have determined the level of response? This may well have created a line in the sand, requiring a short sharp shock.
You can argue the legitimacy of the response for ever but Pelosi being divisive sends entirely the wrong message to Iran. The provocations and response should not be a Democratic Republican football, especially with an election drawing ever closer. The deplorables do not welcome this sort of behaviour,as will be seen come election time.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:24 PM

Being who you are, do you not think the drone snuffing of Pelosi and Schiff for sedition in a time of war is justified, legal and will save lives according to Steve Miller?

Your question is loaded and is better suited to be answered by the General who posed the option among many for Trump to choose from.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:40 PM

As Iains said we must avenge the hostages that were released 10 Presidential terms ago.

While were at it lets target Boris Johnson for the 1812 war.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 07:03 PM

Missiles fired fom Iran into US base in Iraq. 'Operation martyr Solenami'
meh

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 05:57 AM

A questionable source but raises some interesting perspectives, if true.


https://www.theepochtimes.com/rent-a-mobs-will-not-ease-khameinis-grim-future_3196491.html

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 06:13 AM

It is Good News
Escalation
has been defused.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:33 AM

So Johnson condemns limited attacks on US bases, no casualties, where there shouldn't be any US bases, yet fails to utter a word about the cold-blooded, Trump-ordered assassination of an Iranian general. Kind of sums up what's wrong in the Middle East...

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:40 AM

Mrrzy, the odd thing about yesterday was the nature of the announcment to send everyone home.
It was a succint "Everyone is to be out of the building by 1PM"
Never before (25 years) has there been such an announcement.
It is a standard "Due to inclement weather early closure will begin. Managers will inform staff to blah blah blah..."

Perhaps there was a substitute in charge but I was not being alarmist, it really was suspicious.

As for slowing down tensions, I suspect Donald deferred to Vladamir.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 09:09 AM

Vlad the lad and his Chinese counterpart have been unseasonably close lipped over the entire affair.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 05:52 PM

Last night on the PBS network the Newshour had an interesting segment with two foreign policy experts with backgrounds in the W.Bush and Obama administrations. Their attitudes differed sharply so I thought it was a very good review of the situation:

Mara Karlin and Michael Doran talk over Iran Strategy

Mara Karlin was doubtful, questioning; Michael Doran was aggressive, justifying. Made for good TV.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 06:18 PM

Considering the non-lethal result of the Iranian ballistic missile bombardment and the current (as of this hour) American 'standown' from military escalation, and the recent major public demonstrations in Iran against the terrorist behavior of their own government on its own citizens, it seems like the recent events might constitute a double down on "Wag the Dog" tactics in that they provide major distraction for the masses in both countries and a lot of the witnessing countries from the real misrule of both governmental bodies of this conflict.

Am still awaiting the fallout (no pun intended) from the Boeing 737 crash to see if this complicates matters.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:04 PM

Distraction while maintaining fear/hate is an astute observation robo.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:34 PM

Thank you Don'l. And thanks for this prescient thread. I will hold off on my usual trope, which is the 'futility of insight'!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:46 PM

All the insight, 20/20 foresight and prophetic chess like knowledge amount to playing catch up to a single act by a megalomaniac.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 11:53 PM

From Politico:

How Trump decided to kill Iran’s Soleimani The U.S. strike against Tehran’s fea

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 10:03 AM

That is odd, Donuel.

Anybody else reading, here and there (mostly there) [see, now it's a music thread], that the Urkanian plane was brought down by a missile?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 10:14 AM

”Anybody else reading......that the Urkanian plane was brought down by a missile?”

Only by way of conjecture, nothing factual.
Publishers gotta sell their media....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 11:51 AM

Mrrzy, just announced on BBC News that the plane was brought down by two missiles. Didn’t catch the whole report, so can’t give any further detail.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 12:28 PM

Vilhemy Fugidupski, Qaddidi Hammamimia or Dick Armstrong are the usual suspects.

The US, Boeing and Europe are denied any access to investigation.
Ukraine says it will share black box info, if it is not damaged, with Canada and the world. Iran is not saying much.

We all suspect an Iranian with a Russian weapon had an itchy trigger finger. But you know how republicans are saying Pelosi protects terrorists and Democrats are in love with terrorists, so we can not prove it was not a Democrat. If we send in Gulliani we will be sure to get proof Biden did it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 12:30 PM

Well, expletive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 12:43 PM

Who thought a backwoodsman would scoop mudcat and the world?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 01:18 PM

Not me Don. The news seems to have come from your Orange Baboon in DC.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 01:27 PM

Pence says we have to classify top secret to protect our sources and methods. psst shhh... the source is Donald Trump and the method is pulling it out of his ass.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 01:40 PM

RT reports the plane was returning to the airport when it crashed. Radar traces would confirm deny this speculation. If true, this would make the missile scenario unlikely. It could also have been a trigger happy missile crew on the ground.
In war the first casualty is truth.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 02:48 PM

A Canadian press release confirms it was an Iranian missile attack

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 03:11 PM

and Iran buys the launcher and GA missiles from RUSSIA.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 03:51 PM

I have not found this on bbc but the newly-bearded Trudeau claims there are data. I find him believable, usually.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 04:06 PM

The BBC Report I referred to was on the BBC News TV channel this afternoon. I don’t know if you can receive it in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 04:10 PM

Currently available on the BBC News app, but I don’t know how to link to it here.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM

Its real

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 06:35 PM

I guess it will complicate things with Ukraine (newish Boeing and high time highly trained crew), and Canada, and any Iranian citizens who learn the truth, but it's no skin off of the U.S. It's a horrible thing to happen to civilians traveling in a dicey arena. I suspect that an effort will be made to characterize airspace in a way that will sensitize warring parties in the near future. It should be doable with current technology and with the U.N. maybe taking a role in coordination. Or the Int'l Airlline Pilots Assoc.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 06:52 PM

It sounds like a horrible accident. Iran, please admit it. Trump has been restrained. It's the first decent thing he's done in the whole of his bloody life.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 06:57 PM

Iran has officially invited Boeing to investigate.

Today Trump had intense blue circles under his eyes that cosmetics could not mask. Fatigue, health consequences, I dunno.
We all know Mr. Cheetoe does not drink but I would not rule out drug use.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 09:36 PM

Now the NTSB and Sweden are invited to investigate by the Irainian civil aviation director. Iran is taking the high road while Russia, who downed KH17 in Ukrain, never did.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 06:42 AM

What are we going to do with all these democrats who are in love with terrorists? Obama drone snuffed a US citizen in Africa for fometing terrorism, why can't our leader drone target Pelosi?
We criminalized the Communist party. Its time to criminalize the Democrat party and have a night of the long knives for America to be free of crazy insane demented demoncrats. Do your part and go to www.feurher.com for your assignment.

"Um Senator, I think we are getting ahead of the plan"
Senator Collins

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 04:21 PM

Yeah, I was thinking about that. It would have been a strong Republican argument to remind us all that Obama used drone strikes a lot. If that argument got made I didn't notice. Either the counter argument that Solemeini was a much higher profile target was taken into consideration, or the Republicans did not want to remind the American public that Democrats are quite capable killers as well.

I agree with Shaw that Trump has done well for himself to the current point, in showing restraint. The restraint has been in not reacting militarily to the Iran rocket attack. Also in being a tad less bellicose than normal.

On the other hand, Canada and Ukraine may have some ideas that without the initial killing of the Iranian, there might have been no back and forth volley, and 170 plus civilians might still be alive today.

There was an episode either last year or the year before where the Israelis raided Syrian positions (probably Iranian backed targets) via fighters, got them out of the airspace, but a Syrian missile took out a Russian plane in response. I think Israel actually apologized to Russia over that.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 04:59 PM

Obama said he told his daughter's prom date about his drone termination powers. }:^/

Trump forgot he wasn't on 5th Avenue. Thats why he is trying to trump up self defense by saying "Americans were under 'enema' attack".

There is no proof that 'General Salami me' was leading an imminent attack. But then again thats how proxy terrorism works.

Trump probably was dressed down by Putin. Donnie had to obey.

Don't forget the Trump threat about destroying 52 cultural sites.
Then he got a 'phone call'

No I don't see a rational toned down trump

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 05:11 PM

"I agree with Shaw..."

If you promise to call me Steve I promise not to call you Matic. Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 06:05 PM

I agree with Shaw that Trump has done well for himself to the current point, in showing restraint.

Ex-fucking 'scuse me????? Because the guy he illegally and immorally sucker-punched for no reason other than to win points with his brain-dead cult didn't punch back harder? (yet?) And he hasn't retaliated (yet?)

Next you'll be thanking Geo. W Butch for his restraint on Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 09:12 PM

Steve- Shaw is a more distinctive appellation which was all I was aiming for. I try mostly to call people what they wish. Robomatic was my DJ name when I was on the air with zero listeners. You can call me 'Robo' or 'Matic' or something more interesting so long as I understand your intent. I guess I only know one 'Steve' in these threads so I'll try to 'member.

Mossy I think I made my point pretty clearly. Your spell of outrage comes off to me as a bit of misplaced virtuosity. You make no effort to explicate what you mean by 'illegal' and 'immoral' (though I made no mention of legality or morality in my post).

...but now that you mention it, what's wrong with offing a crumbum? I'm reminded of a short story that came out right after the Six Day War (Spring 1967 before the West Bank settlement issue which came much much later). In it, Goliath's family laments his loss not getting to arrive home after killing all the Jews. The story was from the book "Unfair to Goliath".

My opinion of the Current Occupant as a person is not necessarily the same as simply acknowledging that he may have become more electable for the time being, which I think is what we Yanks call a 'no-brainer'.

Meanwhile, we have this terrible plane crash which I'm ready to call a shoot-down. Our fearless leader has come clean out of that although I'm sure there are going to be folks who lay the chain of events to his 'credit'.

Make no mistake. Iran is a terror state, and has been since at least the return of Khomeini (and many would say since the overthrow of Mossadegh, and they would not be wrong). Under the undemocratic rule of the Mullahs and Ayatollah, Iran has indulged in bloodbaths to institute its regime, when it was attacked by Iraq its response was to throw untrained and underaged boys and men into mass wave attacks, and whenever its own citizens have peacably assembled for redress of grievances they have been subject to state violence including hundreds killed within the last month. Iran has internalized this violence, and also externalized it, resulting in the deaths of many Americans. Solemeini had it SO-coming!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 12:07 AM

BBC TV News a few moments ago - Iran has admitted it shot down the Ukrainian airliner ‘unintentionally, as a result of American adventurism’. The Iranian foreign minister has offered ‘profound regrets and apologies’.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 12:37 AM

Since KAL007 airliner shootdowns and of course the Twin Towers loss of 4 of them all I find uniquely horrible. Other than writing in here I avoided the news today to avoid being sick. I won't write in on this for a while. Good thread, though. Good talkin' at ya. Thank you all.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 02:04 AM

Lest the outrage over the downed airliner get too extreme it is worth pointing out that the USS Vincennes fired a RIM-66 Standard surface-to-air missile at Iran Air Flight 655. The airplane was destroyed and all 290 passengers and crew died. USS Vincennes was in Iranian waters at the time of the attack. In both cases we would hope the downing was
misidentification and not deliberate.

A story making the rounds on the assassination below:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/01/breaking-report-iran-roundup-for-january-4th-thru-9th-general-soleimani-was-betrayed-by

Maybe in 50 years we will know the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 04:57 AM

Quite a contrast in how long it took the culprits to admit to shooting down the planes in 1988 and this week respectively. Also, after the Lockerbie incident, American intelligence officers were swarming all over the crash site within a few hours, studiously removing evidence. The upshot was an egregious miscarriage of justice and no closure for the victims' families. I tend not to do conspiracy theories but I've never quite got my head round what the yanks might have been up to - and why the UK authorities allowed them unfettered and uncontrolled access to the crime scene.

Again, whilst I'll never be an apologist for successive ghastly Iranian regimes, I'd remind robomatic that Iran has never invaded a neighbouring country, and that the founding of Hezbollah and the support for Hamas sprang directly from Israeli aggression. There have been plenty of bloodbaths at the hands of Israeli regimes, carried out with the acquiescence and support of the west. Let's not be one-sided about it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 06:15 AM

The Vincennes crew, as I understand that one, was mostly misled by poor computer programming and a total failure on the command level of sending a human outside to look up in the sky and see if the icon on the crew's screens was correct.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 06:33 AM

So IAINS says WHAT ABOUT AMERICAN SHOOT DOWNS.

Playing 'whataboutism'* is sick.

Instead look at all the shoot downs of innocent passengers
and condemn them all.

The Guilty nations or individuals go to extremes to deny thier crimes.
Russia even broadcast that dead bodies were loaded on a plane to stage a conspiracy against Russia. The US uses dubious animations.


It took a week but Iran fessed up that they messed up..

Remember these are just 'small' hand held weapons.

'WHAT ABOUT'* NUKES :^\

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 10:57 AM

Steve. By bloodbaths do you mean wars? Your defense of Iran overlooks their Byzantine tactics of paying for subordinate mercenaries including right now Houthies and militias world wide to extend their influences. Research how popular they are with Arabians in general. This behavior goes back to Persians who messed with the Greeks which you may already have read about. They are proud of their long history.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 11:17 AM

Ahem.

The primary argument in support of the drone strike is that Suleimani was a bad guy with blood on his hands, which is a juvenile non sequitur. There are any number of military commanders around the world who would fit that description at any given time and, despite his prominence, Suleimani implemented policies rather than formulating them....

If Iraqis’ perspectives featured into the reporting on Trump’s attack, Americans might come to appreciate how outraged they are that al-Muhandis and other Iraqi nationals were killed in a strike on Iraqi territory. They might understand that Suleimani was in Iraq as a guest of the government on routine business when the strike occurred, and that he was seen as a hero to many Iraqis, who credited him for defeating the feared and almost universally loathed Islamic State...

While Suleimani was a brutally efficient commander, he was, contrary to the dominant narrative in the US, a moderating influence on Iraq’s sprawling network of Shia militia groups...

Iraqis are now fearful of becoming caught in a crossfire in an escalating conflict between the US and Iran–of Iraqi civilian deaths mounting as the rivals wage a proxy war within their borders. They have reason to be. And many are furious at both the US and Tehran for trampling over their hard-fought sovereignty.

Just 17 years after a US war of choice that was sold to the world on a pack of lies and which led to the death and displacement of millions of Iraqis, it is this reality that most of the discussion here at home simply ignores.

Excerpted from:

https://www.alternet.org/2020/01/missing-from-the-debate-trumps-assassination-of-suleimani-was-another-egregious-american-assault-on-iraqs-sovereignty/

**************

In this morning’s Wall Street Journal seven esteemed reporters committed one of journalism’s professional sins. They buried the lede. Nearly 30 paragraphs into a 2,200-word story, they said:

    "Mr. Trump, after the strike, told associates he was under pressure to deal with Gen. Soleimani from GOP senators he views as important supporters in his coming impeachment trial in the Senate, associates said."

The buried lede suggests something else worth exploring. The president may not have been alone in seeking to please Republican senators who will sit in judgement of him during the impeachment trial. It may be that a Republican senator—Lindsey Graham comes to mind—encouraged the president to act on Soleimani. In that case, we would have to face yet another unbearable truth: some Republicans in the United States Senate are conspiring with the president in defrauding the people to maintain power.

Excerpted from:

https://www.alternet.org/2020/01/the-wall-street-journal-accidentally-reveals-the-unbearable-truth-about-suleimanis-assassination/

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 12:03 PM

So, in order to preserve his own political career, Big Orange has been prepared to sacrifice 176 innocent lives in the aircraft-downing incident. Very similar to Thatcher’s cunning stunt, saving her prime-ministership by going to war with Argentina in 1982 and sacrificing ~1,000 lives in order to hang on to her job.

Pieces of shit, the pair of them. May they rot in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 01:12 PM

Interestingly in 1973 the Falklands became an EU dependency. The only participating EU ally? was supplying exocets to the Argentinians. This is an issue never raised, but raises many questions about the reliability of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 02:00 PM

Did they really write 'buried the lede'? That should put the entire quotation in doubt.

Actually, the U.S. Administration has said more than once that the target was actively involved in terror attacks. I am NOT saying that it's true. I am saying that your (Mossy) 'lead' is not accurate. Maybe you want to go into full-on Trump tactics like Backwoodsy who is going on to incorporate the tragic and admitted Iranian shootdown of the Ukrainian airliner to the account of Trump. I suppose it is considered fair to use Trump tactics on Trump, but the end result is to render oneself unbelievable. Is it really worth it to sacrifice rationality for hate to deliver a thread barb?

Which brings me to what I was hoping not to have to return to, but Iran has been rather impressive in coming around to admitting it shot down Ukrainian Flight PS752. I remember the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 by the USS Vincennes and the obfuscation that ensued on the part of the United States civilian and military authorities. It was at least as bad as the recent Iranian progression of: "it was a mechanical failure, it was an engine failure, terrorism has been ruled out" to the current admission of "our military made a mistake". I think they recognized that if the evidence was out, and much of it could not be covered up, they might as well face it. Afterwards they can spin it as Backwoodsy is doing above. It is more mature behavior than obvious fabrications backed up by stolid indifference such as Putin has exhibited with Siberian Flight 1812 (shot down by Ukrainian forces) and Malaysian Flight 17 (shot down by Russian forces).

In the case of the USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air Flight 655 it is a confession that the U.S. military could not tell what they were shooting at. I don't know what the Iranians will end up with, but clearly they did not know either. More accurately, I don't think they knew, because I can't imagine why it would be in their interest to take it out knowingly.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 02:20 PM

”Maybe you want to go into full-on Trump tactics like Backwoodsy who is going on to incorporate the tragic and admitted Iranian shootdown of the Ukrainian airliner to the account of Trump. I suppose it is considered fair to use Trump tactics on Trump, but the end result is to render oneself unbelievable. Is it really worth it to sacrifice rationality for hate to deliver a thread barb?”

Any leader who initiates warlike action - e.g. the assassination of a senior official of another country - does so in the full knowledge that there will almost certainly be unintended consequences, which will likely involve other deaths, and very likely those deaths will be of innocent civilians.

Trump is a documented liar, and manipulator of situations to suit his own personal agenda - there is a mass of evidence available to anyone who cares to check it out.

There is nothing ‘unbelievable’ or ‘sacrificing rationality for hate to deliver a thread barb’ in those statements of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

Backwoodsman:
So, in order to preserve his own political career, Big Orange has been prepared to sacrifice 176 innocent lives in the aircraft-downing incident. Very similar to Thatcher’s cunning stunt, saving her prime-ministership by going to war with Argentina in 1982 and sacrificing ~1,000 lives in order to hang on to her job.
Margaret Thatcher did not sacrifice 1,000 lives.
UK losses were 255 military personnel and 3 Falkland islanders. She cannot be held responsible for the deaths in an invading force.
You may feel differently, but the counter argument would be that even the 255 UK military personnel were victims of Argentinian attacks, not of the UK response.

Similarly the 176 deaths which you attribute to "Big Orange" (presumably you mean "Trump") were air passengers (and crew) shot down by Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

I don't know if I'm missing the point, but how, for fuck sake, is it possible to mistake a Civil Boeing 737 for a military cruise missile. Clearly the Persian idiot who did needs stringing up on a crane!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

If The Beast of Grantham hadn’t decided to start a war with Argentina, and had simply offered the Falkland-Islanders repatriation to the UK, those 1,000 deaths would not have happened. To that extent, she had responsibility for those deaths - not sole responsibility admittedly, but joint responsibility nonetheless.

The 600+ Argentinian deaths were no less important than the British deaths - every one was somebody’s son, husband, father, brother, and all deaths in that ridiculous, opportunist war were equally tragic, and of equal value.

The Iranian authorities have stated that they shot down the airliner in error, because they mistook it for a US missile. If Trump hadn’t decided to assassinate a senior Iranian official as a way of increasing his popularity and boosting his chances of re-election, the tensions that caused the nervous Iranians to fire in error at a Ukrainian airliner wouldn’t have existed, and it’s virtually certain the airliner would not have been shot down

In that respect, Trump carries some, if not all, of the responsibility for the deaths of those 176 innocent civilians.

It takes a distinct and deep lack of humanity to be unable to see those points as truth.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 05:22 PM

See how far we've come in 12 years- god help AmeriKKKa-

http://bp0.blogger.com/_v63oTveUEGI/SJjLt0sbepI/AAAAAAAAFBA/lbeXYkrzaMA/s1600-h/tom_tomorrow.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 05:41 PM

The 600+ Argentinian deaths were no less important than the British deaths

Now, now, Backwoodsman - you know wog deaths don't count, be they Argentinian, Iraqui, or Iranian!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 07:37 PM

When you consider what I said about Iran in my last post, robomatic, I'm scratching my head as to how you could possibly see it as my defending Iran. Please reread. If you dispute the unassailable fact that Hezbollah arose directly as a response to Israeli aggression, likewise the Iranian support of Hamas, let's be having your refutation with the facts I appear to have missed. I did not say in any shape or form that I supported those developments. You can ask me my opinion on them if you like but what I stated were the plain facts of the matter. There's far too much twisting of this kind going on in these threads. I'm very disappointed with you.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 07:47 PM

"Iran has been rather impressive in coming around to admitting it shot down Ukrainian Flight PS752. I remember the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 by the USS Vincennes and the obfuscation that ensued on the part of the United States civilian and military authorities. It was at least as bad as the recent Iranian progression of: 'it was a mechanical failure, it was an engine failure, terrorism has been ruled out' to the current admission of 'our military made a mistake'. I think they recognized that if the evidence was out, and much of it could not be covered up, they might as well face it."

One more time. "At least as bad," eh? Well that's damning with far too faint damning. It took Iran about four days to fess up. It took the US about four years. I'd say that "at least as bad" is a laughable letoff for your country.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 08:34 PM

Steve: I don't think your bringing H & H into the argument as responses to another country's aggression as unassailable. They are terrorist organizations used by Iran, and loyal to Iran, and very far from Iran. Leave us not forget their heavy involvent with Syria. There are supposedly thousands of military rockets available in Lebanon to fire to the South. I'm not sure that is unassailable but I believe it. And those rockets are not under the control of the Lebanese officials. So I'd say that the current dictatorship of the Mullahs in Iran (so far unassailable) is controlling many forces not related to Iran itself. And let's not forget poor Yemen, which unfortunately has been a long time stomping ground for forces outside itself. Iran is a terror state as I've said above. And that is possibly damning with too faint a damning. Consider that there have been demonstrations in Iran by its own people condemning their own military in shooting down a civilian airliner.

Your perception of my feelings about Iran owning up versus American owning up is accurate. I don't recall it being four years, but in this case there is a possibility that you have some plain facts. But as to Iran and its support of terror organizations, I think you have strong opinions that you have used to generate up your 'own facts'.

Again, bloodbaths or wars? You have your own ox to gore and you are simply denying it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 08:59 PM

Gosh, nothing I've said is in any way a defence of Hezbollah and Hamas. As for who's a terrorist and who isn't, if you really want to define any state as a a terrorist state (not me, thanks), then Western countries such as yours, mine and, in particular, Israel, should also be so defined, if you want to use the measure of how much death and misery you've caused in other people's countries far from your own. That wouldn't be helpful, just as it wouldn't be helpful in this debate to assert that Iran, in promoting Hezbollah, etc, is merely trying to support repressed Arabs/Palestinians. I like the idea that "terrorists" to one chap might be "freedom fighters" to another chap. If you can't afford for your movement to have an army, then you might resort to terrorism (by its convenient western definition). Always remember that the terrorist is the man with the small bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 09:17 PM

I prefer the saying that a terrorist is simply someone who delivers a bomb without using an airplane. ToMAYto ToMAHto.
Steve:

I'm not going to play good Kirk evil Kirk with you. I didn't much care for that episode much anyway.

It's easy to say the guy on the other side of the mirror who for all intents and purposes acts the same as oneself is the evil one. At the same time the other side of the mirror sees and says the same thing. This is the equalization argument which muddies the water. But this thread starts and ends with Iran and your trying to drag the Zionist Entity into it is a bad case of equalization.

Let's stick with Iran and its hold by force on its own people and its extention of its power to Arab entities by means known throughout time immemmorial. Let's leave your poor ox out of it for now. You seem bent on dragging it in and you're doing a dog's breakfast of it. Even I could do it better and I'm not going there.

And there isn't much to argue about within the context of this thread. Several days ago I expressed the concern that the last unknown of the wind-down was what happened to the airliner. And it turned out that the worst thing possible happened to the airliner. As of tonight Ukraine and Canada are asking Iran to come clean with the facts. Iran's own people are asking their government to come clean with the facts.

Why don't you care about THAT?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 09:32 PM

"Why don't you care about THAT?"

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 06:52 PM

It sounds like a horrible accident. Iran, please admit it.

Sorry, mate, but you havehave a message to propagate, and you are doing it whatever anyone else says. If you can't be bothered to read threads, then I can't be bothered talking to you.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 20 - 09:52 PM

Good on ya Steve!

I hereby retract the last line of my last post. Mods, please take note!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 04:45 AM

For the benefit of the leftwaffe - it's Argentine.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 05:16 AM

Despite having unique transponders passenger aircraft will always be at risk if straying into contested airspace. If wars are undeclared so also are no fly zones. When defense crews are on a high alert, and response times severely limited, mistakes will occur. The two catastrophes mentioned in this thread are by no means the only ones, and unlikely to be the last. If you have a potential threat heading your way what are you to do?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 07:51 AM

Iains is suggesting a defensive arms race to fly the unfriendly skies.
The cost for chaff and defensive missles is 12 million per plane/
change a transponder frequency response - free - 25 cents per plane

the word DESPITE is a troll master's favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 08:40 AM

Try reading what I said and stop copying our most argumentative member.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/09/how-iranian-air-defense-forces-could-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-t

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 11:46 AM

Iains:

Civilian Airliners fly scheduled flights along prepared routes. They identify themselves with transponders that carry information about the carrier and the flight. Additionally they are monitored by agencies on the ground which issue control instructions. I think that information can be assimilated into military hardware, with some exceptions such as the 'Ukrainian' front, actually Russians, which shot down Malaysia Flight 17 with a portable Russian made Buk Missile. I think technology and diplomatic capability exists to make this kind of occurrence far rarer. Incidentally your link is incomplete. Please check it.

In the case of Iran Air 655 and the Vincennes, the airliner was flying from an 'enemy' airport, hence who knows but I doubt there was a transfer of believable information to assure the airliner's safety. The Vincennes claimed to have queried the aircraft's identity. Unlike Steve Shaw's claim, apparently Ronald Reagan issued a communication of regret days after the incident. What was argued about was the circumstances of the shoot down.
In the case of Ukrainian Flight PS752 this was Iranian weapons targetting a civilian airliner on their own territory leaving their own airport. The Iranians have done well to 'fess up so soon. But they are still in the hot seat with Canada, Ukraine, world opinion, and their own population which already has serious grievances and has been shot up Tienanmen style over peaceful demonstrations. And yet they persist.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 12:47 PM

All from wiki. There has been no admission of liability or apology from the US for the shooting down of Iran Air flight 255. "Expressing deep regret" is not exactly the same thing, is it? The US has tried to blame Iran for putting its plane in the wrong place, like in its own air space for example There is no comparison between the respective responses of the two countries.   

In the days immediately following the incident, US President Ronald Reagan issued a written diplomatic note to the Iranian government, expressing deep regret. However, the United States continued to insist that the Vincennes was acting in self-defense in international waters.

In 1996, the governments of the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident..."As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

Outrageously, the Fogarty Report into the disaster, only partly released in two parts in 1988 and 1993, stated, "Iran must share the responsibility for the tragedy by hazarding one of their civilian airliners by allowing it to fly a relatively low altitude air route in close proximity to hostilities that had been ongoing". Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:14 PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/09/how-iranian-air-defense-forces-could-have-mistaken-a-737-for-a-military-threat/#78c3fbe722e3
@Robomatic. There is no guarantee that a missile battery will be receiving transponder data, target designation will be the priority. Also it is highly unlikely a manpad such as a sam7 will be tracking anything but a heat source.
That is why no fly zones are designated.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:25 PM

Steve Shaw:

Thanks for the additional info. I feel the same way you do about that incident. The horrible irony of Iran being at the focus of these horrible occurrences is not lost on me. May there be better times ahead.

Iains:

Technology is so far ahead of where it was in 1988 (when Iran Air 655 was shot down by the Vincennes) and with current technology that allows satellites to downlink to elements in the field down to drones, it is certainly doable. It is high time we get ready for an international conference on warfare and this should be one of the subjects. This is one of those blue sky subject that Donuel might address profitably.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:29 PM

Cheers, robomatic. For the record, I think that neither country exactly covered itself in glory regarding these two incidents. At least in this case enough's been said to enable us to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM

At least Reagan, miserable piece of ________ that he was, hadn't murdered someone to obtain an advantage in an upcoming election.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 03:56 PM

Contras, Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM

The Moron factor:

2 guys are standing out in a dark cold field with a couple hand held ground to air missiles. There is no radar or transponder equipement, just a radio. The airport is behind them so they know what commercial jets sound like. Fighter jets are 5 times louder and missiles sound hollow.
Their training was about loading, pointing weapon toward the enemy, hit the saftey switch and finally the trigger.
"DIDJA hear that? "hear what Akbar" "I see a flashing light" "You hear a flashing light?""Its a plane,its a missile" "well shoot what is it?"
WHOOSH What did you do? "you told me to shoot"
   -Typical moron factor-

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 06:54 PM

Just as reprehensible, Steve, but not the same thing at all. The Contras were perfectly willing and able to do their OWN assassinations.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jan 20 - 10:51 PM

Is there any indication whether a human or a computer decided this particular plane was shootable-downable? If computer, it really is the Vincennes all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:16 AM

The Defense Secretary said there was no imminent threat to warrant a drone strike, unlike what Trump says.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM

Why lie when the truth is justification enough?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 09:59 AM

The Contras were backed and funded by the Reagan administration, Bill, even though they hadn't been supposed to have been. OK, then, murder by proxy if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:25 AM

OK, then, murder by proxy if you like.

Exactly my point, Steve. Unfortunately, murder by proxy is something practiced, in one form or another, by most if not all countries.

Again, not to excuse Reagan - who aside from every other atrocious thing he did, brought us the latter day Republishit Party & Donald Trump.

In the current case under discussion, Trump pulled the trigger himself for PERSONAL, not ideological, benefit.

PS: quite a few of Reagan's advisors are now working for Trump....

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 04:54 PM

Without a doubt Col. North did it with a depleted uranium pipe in the Reagan Library while Miss Scarlet did it to the contras after releasing the hostages for US Weapons to Iran . The Reagan advisors/neocon/white supremacist/Restroomcans/Trumpists are indeed clever at murder most foul.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:16 PM

I think there is a good point to be made here that there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was, where he was, and his past activities. The Administration seems to be going overboard, and making themselves look rather ridiculous, by trying to come up with an immediacy to act that they cannot back up even on U.S. talk shows. They don't need it. The immediacy of it was that he was 'doable'. He could be taken out with others of his kind and no civilians involved.

There have been a couple of interesting incidents in fiction that have relevance. In "The West Wing" a terrorist who is a government official is attacked at an island refueling stop (I'm just going by memory here, I could be off on details). The U.S. President and his staff feel justified but are conscious it might have legal and political repercussions, so they are trying to do it but not be traceable. Ultimately they succeed with the killing, but not with the hiding.

In "The Good Wife" one of the legal cases involves a drone operator who takes out armed combatants but also takes out civilians. She is court-martialed based on her violation of Rules of Engagement.

Part of me is wondering whether there is actually a planned "Wag the Dog" effect in making sure that the operation is contentious and controversial so that we are ALL being played in that publicity is off both the Democratic primaries and debates, and also diverted from the Impeachment Saga/Soap Opera.

So the Reps are masterful and pathetic at the same time, yet Trump as an 'executer' gives that all-important masculine dominant trait of making his bones.

It may be that I have exhaustively restated Donuel's point without reference to surrealism. Only D can say!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM

Mossback makes some valid observations while I find the motive to murder for ideological benefit hard to take. Yet I hope we killed Nazis for ideological benefit.

For the US to undertake terrorism is a line we should not cross.
Especially for personal reasons.

The morality plays robo listed show our dilemma.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:38 PM

there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was

By that logic[sic] someone should have long ago "taken out" - i.e. extra-legally murdered - Trump, Paul Wolfowitz, Henry Kissinger, Oliver North, Karl Rove, Benjamin Netanyahu, John Bolton (a.k.a The Moustache of Death) and a host of others.

We'd better get crackin' - got a lot of lost time to make up for.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 05:51 PM

”Yet I hope we killed Nazis for ideological benefit.”

I think ‘we’ killed Nazis, did ‘we’ not, because they were invading, occupying, and looting other countries, murdering those countries’ people, bombing the shit out of London, Coventry, Liverpool, Sheffield, Southampton et al, ethnic-cleansing wherever they went, carrying out inhumane torture and experimentation on human beings, starving and gassing millions of those they considered ‘sub-human’, yadda yadda.

Little to do with ‘ideological benefit’, everything to do with survival, n’est-ce pas?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

"I think there is a good point to be made here that there is ample justification to take out Solemeini on the basic facts of who he was, where he was, and his past activities."

On that same basis, there is more than ample justification to take out (or to have taken out) Dubya, Ariel Sharon, Menachem Begin, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Tony Blair, Thatcher, Pinochet and Reagan. It's a basis I don't accept. And one more time. Why the euphemistic "take out?" What's wrong with kill, slaughter in cold blood, assassinate, extra-judicially murder, blow to kingdom come? Why can't you say what you mean? Is it about wrapping up the killing of dissident Muslims (as opposed to any of "us") in fake respectability?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 07:36 PM

The legacy of the CIA is murder and regieme change. Those methods got out of control when they were applied domesticaly (Robert,John and Martin)
Thats not the way to make America great again.

Subject: RE: BSS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:10 PM

To expand on why I said "I hope..." is that some people value property over human beings. Truth is, when attacked, they are usually destroyed together.

FDR knew of the 'camps' long before they were liberated by infantry.

What racist drug addled Germans did is still in the realm of possibilty in the future of mankind.

ergo I "hope"

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 08:23 PM

You see
Drugs do change nations.
Germans took oxy and crystal meth into mental hell.
I see an enlightened society using drugs as well.
We should use psilocybin
and THC

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 09:16 AM

Pervatin and Eukodol (meth & oxy) were over the counter pick me ups in wartime Germany.

In the US you needed presriptions. Trump country is most ravaged by these drugs. Addiction is extreme.

Psilocybin is extremely non addictive and one day will be seen as a psychiactric 'go to' medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 04:07 PM

I agree with Backwoodsy's last comment. The legitimate reason to take out Solemeini was he had definitely done harm and was good at it and he was actively promoting more. We don't need the excuse that the Reps keep coming up but my point which was ignored was that the Reps may be aware of it and are stirring the pot in order to develop all the kneejerk responses they can and obfuscate and confuse the rest of us, and they are very good at that. My point is they may very well be aware and craftily promoting this, not just ignorantly messing up the china shop.

Donuel, have you ascertained good sources of psilocybin for the rest of us? Inquiring minds wish to know ;-]

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 04:47 PM

No nuclear weapon for Iran...but the UK has them & we allow our women to get cauliflower ears playing rugby - by which our forebears would have been disgusted!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:36 PM

If you are in the US you have to say Solenami had it comin or you will labeled an accomplice to terrorists.

It takes 4-5 months to make, robo. I have no urge to do so for 20 years now. Its not addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM

I would kinda agree that fighting nazis involves ideology given that had "we" shared the nazi ideology, we wouldn't'a fought'm.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 05:57 PM

I wish people would stop trying to sanitise the Solemeini incident by saying he was ‘taken out’. It wasn’t a high-school date, it was an assassination, murder in cold blood - why not call it what it was?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 08:24 PM

You can't stop the euphemism, John. Despite all I've said, even robo is still saying "taken out." When I first met the adorable Mrs Steve, she accepted my proposal after having been taken out by me many times over a couple of years, OK, mostly to an East End pub that had been a frequent resort of the Krays (though also to the Bishop Bonner in Bethnal Green, to see Chas and Dave on many a Thursday before they got famous), but at least she can't deny that she'd been taken out...

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 08:30 PM

I am taken 'aback' by the many words used to critique my words but none to remark on my assertions. I am not trying to euphemize that Solemeini was euthanized.

-oops-

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 08:46 PM

He was murdered. In the UK, that's what we call deliberately killing people outside the law, as happened here. It isn't hard. I've heard self-defence used as an excuse. Well, when you kill a bloke going to an airport, minding his own business, ten thousand miles away from your country but within his own territory (yes, I know it was his friendly neighbour), then self-defence sounds a bit thin. See my post about all those others who, by your standard, might justifiably have been "taken out..."

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jan 20 - 10:22 PM

Meanwhile back in the world dealing with facts as well as the re-interpretation of them, there seems to be photographs of the two anti-aircraft missiles used by Iran to dispatch Ukrainian Flight PS752 down in flames.

Canadian PM Trudeau has just ventured forth the opinion that the airliner passengers would still be alive had all this not gone down, so he is going back along the chain of events to finesse the allocation of responsibility. I alluded to this back along the chain of messages in this thread. Not a surprise.

I just found a mouse 'murdered' in a trap in my foyer. Not sure to which court I have to plead my case... It probably was not responsible for as many allied deaths as Solemieni.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 02:47 AM

There would seem to be protests against the ayotollahs in Iran. Could exterminating the terrorist possibly lead to regime change?
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the drone strike it was relatively clean and surgical.
According to outside monitoring groups, by the end of his second term, President Obama had authorized 528 strikes with a death toll reaching somewhere between 380 and 801 civilians in Libya, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen alone. And that’s believed to be a conservative estimate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes
Modern weaponry and warfare would seem to have outpaced the Geneva Convention on Warfare.
Whether the act was right or wrong the world is a better lave without the man

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM

Meanwhile back in the New World THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES has accused me of being a traitor. In fact all regesitered Democrats are being called traitors. Pelosi and Schumer are pictured in Irainian garb labeled terrorist sympathizers by the Press secretry who no longer gives press conferences.

Part of this is reminds me how Jews and Communists were portrayed in 1932 Germany. Likewise they thought Adolf was kidding at first

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 11:07 AM

I just found a mouse 'murdered' in a trap in my foyer.

Did you really mean to come across as a total dickhead?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 11:31 AM

From Merriam-Webster...

”Definition of murder (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought”

What does this have to do with mice?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 05:48 PM

I've taken out the mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 05:54 PM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 07:02 PM

Off-topic, but it's to do with war. The film 1917. It's absolutely superb. Don't miss!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 08:36 PM

Just saw it last night. Agree fully with Steve. Superbly executed, paced, cinematography, great score by Thomas Newman, not a criticism but it went easy on some of the mass horrors of the war. One of the main characters has survived The Somme, so it's transmitted in his behavior and actions. The real-time nature of this movie is rarely seen and takes an incredible amount of prep and coordination.

As a relatively ignorant Yank brought up by veterans of WWII I took the fact that there had been a WWI to be that it must have been a sort of 'warmup'. Only a few years ago the advent of a six part documentary series called "The Great War and the Shaping of the Twentieth Century" which set me right and was hugely informative.


Back to Iran. For those of us on the West side of the pond, Fresh Air is going to air an interview with someeone behind the fresh release of Iranian internal documents which inform the part Solemeini played in exercising Iranian policy in Iraq. It is apparently a shared story between an online site called The Intercept and The New York Times. I just heard this on the way over to the coffee shop. I'll be looking a the publications shortly, at least the NYT.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 06:30 AM

The General and Supream leader were best buds. If policy and their relationship went hand in glove would be good to know. So far Iran's response without the General has been quite measured and dispositive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 08:49 PM

You mean, aside from that little problem where they shot down Ukrainian Flight PS752 killing 176 civilians with no involvement in the case?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 06:35 PM

And as for the idiot calling himself supreme leader of Persia???????

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 07:00 PM

Not half so bad as the asshole calling himself "The Chosen One" and very stable genius supreme leader of the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 08:50 PM

Really, Mossy?

Are you going for a statement (yet again) of how you dislike the Current Occupant, or are you really going to assert, like, in real world that a religious dictator who has no problem ordering the deaths of essentially unlimited numbers of people (not just ordering, they really die) is not nearly as bad?

'Cause that's going for broke. And makes you no less a 'winger' than the very sort of people you oppose.

It makes you a 'very stable' kneejerker, (assuming you really are going there?)

Also, forgive me but I don't know which side of the pond you're on, and maybe my lack of knowledge of where you're coming from is marring my judgment of where you wish to go.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 11:20 PM

Yeah I don't like titles either. Forget Ayatollah, Fuerher, President, Commander AND Chief. How about Supreme Shitbag, YOUR HEINOUS, Mr. or Ms Tie breaker.

Accidents happen. Iran has picked some scapegoats to punish already. I'm more pissed off about the deliberateness of flight 007 being shot down near Kamchatka with impunity.

Mossback is about polemics. At least thats where he parked his posting flag this week.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 05:05 AM

Raghead arsehole will do!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 07:07 AM

Unacceptable. Mods please.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 08:07 AM

I would say he was assassinated (killed unlawfully for holding a particular and influential position, not for, say, his money) rather then murdered (by, in my example, mugger or impatient heir).

But I also don't equate injured and wounded, which many do.

Don't trust dictionary definitions (literally? Really?)...

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 09:55 AM

I say it is acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 03:16 PM

Oh you do, do you? Would like to put it in its correct place in the rank order of names we call foreigners who don't look like us? Wog? Nigger? Paki? Coon? Spade? Nip? Chinky? Abo? Gippo? Dago? Paddy?

Hopefully, a mod will see this post, find out what provoked it and take action.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 09:10 AM

Perhaps I should not started our objection to titles discussion.
A rose is a rose and if it is not, we know better.
Steve you left out 1N 2G's 1I E and R...

Ginger

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 10:24 AM

President Donald Trump offered chilling details to GOP donors about the airstrike assassination of Iranian Maj. Gen. Qassem Soleimani on Jan. 2 — and a new reason for the hit: He was saying “bad things” about America.

“He was saying bad things about our country, like ‘we’re going to attack, we’re going to kill your people. “How much of this shit do we have to listen to?" Trump said.

The president didn’t mention any “imminent attack” planned by the military commander.

Obviously a perfect reason for multiple murders by TCO.

YOU TALKIN TA ME ????? BLAM!



PS: Murder's the same either side of the pond, Rob.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 04:17 PM

Mossback, those kind of defenses never work for spousal murder cases. Every country should issue a restraining order against Trump.
It won't prevent the crime but aids prosecution.