Types of folk music you like or dislike

Subject: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:54 AM

On another thread we were discussing source singers. Rather than clutter up that thread with these questions, here they are!

Do you like and listen to recordings of the source singers?I
Do you prefer revival and present day singers?
Do you like songs accompanied or unaccompanied?
Do you like traditional, contemporary or both?
What about electric folk?
Dance music, social or ritual?

I'm sure many more will come up over the course of the discussion but please do not turn this into another what is folk music thread! I'll kick off.

I have listened to quite a lot of source singers and even seen one perform. I think we can get a lot from them and they have input a lot into the folk world we see today but I find some of the material not to my taste.

I enjoy most revival singers a lot more easily. I'm not sure why this is. Maybe because they have updated (the folk process!) the songs to suit today's ear? This could also explain changing trends in any genre.

I do enjoy unaccompanied song when it is well done. I do prefer, in the main, accompanied or harmony performances though. This is possibly because I like the music more than the lyrics. I'm not greatly into poetry either.

I am not concerned if the song was written yesterday or a thousand years ago as long as it is good music!

I love electric folk and other derivations such as adding brass like Bellowhead or Brass Monkey did.

My favourite, saved till last of course :-), is dance music. Both social and ritual. I must add though that ritual dance music, for me, is best accompanied by ritual dance :-)

Ok. Enough from me for now. Over to you...

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:42 AM

I have found that most "source singers" I have either seen or listen to tend to be a tad tedious and stodgy, not natural entertainers so I moved away from them many years ago.

I was fortunate to be living in Manchester in the late 60's, early 70's when the folk scene there seemed to be thriving with a choice of various clubs every night of the week with a vast array of great performers across a wide spectrum of what I consider to be folk music. From Mary Asquith and Tom Yates, through Marie Little, Rosie Hardman, Ted Edwards, Mike Harding, The Beggarmen, Jolly Jack, The Oldham Tinkers, Planxty and countless others. There was, on reflection, a fair number of below par acts too.

I really enjoy unaccompanied song, especially when sung in harmony, words matter a lot to me. Like Dave I care not if the song was "written yesterday or a thousand years ago"

Not really a great lover of electronic folk, it tends to distract from the words or make them difficult to decipher, but like Dave a touch of Brass instrumentation is a joy, must be my Northern roots.

Dance is really a closed book to me, I've got two left feet, both on a right leg.

I have to say that I find performers of today tend to be far better musicians than they were "back in my day", they tend (in my experience) to have a better understanding of where the music came from and they tend to be far better singers.

In fact the standards of today are far higher (again in my opinion) than they were a few decades ago.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:51 AM

I like and dislike all types.
:-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:27 AM

I enjoy source singers, and have a lot of the 'Voice of the People' CDs, but in a way I can't really explain, I enjoy it differently to most revivalist singers. I particularly like unaccompanied harmony, whether it is The Young Tradition or The Flying Pickets, or Bob and Ron Copper.

I gave a talk a few years back on the Hammond brothers collecting traditional music from sources and pointed out that some of the songs they collected as traditional were music hall 'hits' of around about the same age then as Queen's Fat-Bottomed Girls was to us. It is easy to be too precious about these things (IMO, naturally)

About the only genre I don't really get on with is blues. I can enjoy it for about 15 minutes, then just get bored.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 07:19 AM

I like both kinds of music, Country and Western.

Seriously though, I don't use any criteria that I'm consciously aware of to evaluate songs, I either like them or I don't or I grow to like them (as long as they're not from barbershop quartets) but here are my answers:

How do you define "source singers"?
yes
accompanied
both
some
dance music and it depends on what you mean by "social or ritual".

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 07:32 AM

replace "consciously aware" with either conscious or aware.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 07:56 AM

> Do you like and listen to recordings of the source singers?
Yes.

> Do you prefer revival and present day singers?
Sometimes. I prefer a good revival singer to a source singer who was well past his/her prime, but I can still enjoy the source singer in a different way.

> Do you like songs accompanied or unaccompanied?
No preference if the accompaniment is exactly that, but I hate "accompaniment" that smothers the words. I also hate an instrumental introduction that lasts for more than a few bars, especially if it's not even the proper tune but just noodling.

> Do you like traditional, contemporary or both?
Both, but it depends on the song, and a lot of contemporary material does nothing for me (and likewise some traditional, especially if I've heard a particular song too often).

> What about electric folk?
Tolerable if it neither smothers the words nor wastes time, but that is very rare.

> Dance music, social or ritual?
Yes. Used to play for a morris side, still participate in sessions occasionally, and I do dance (general international and especially Swedish).

One more preference: I am quite happy to join in choruses, but I object to the notion of a "chorus song" that seems to exist mainly for the sake of the chorus; one of my pet hates is a performer's starting out by "teaching" the chorus before starting the song proper; and another pet hate is adding an extra chorus at the end.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 08:07 AM

Hi gillymor

A source singer is one who learned traditional songs in their original context. Such as Walter Pardon, Fred Jorden or the Copper family. I think the term came about because they were the source for a lot of the collections that revival artists now use. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong :-)

Social is ceilidh or barn dancing - Socialy! Ritual is such dances as Morris, Rapper, Molly etc.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 08:20 AM

Some of all of those.

In my view, the revival style has evolved to be something quite different from the traditional style, and has probably been largely influenced by other factors from outside the original tradition. Most obviously, the revival usually features accompaniment. In the early days of folk clubs quite a number of source singers appeared there and probably had some influence on the revival singers, but in most cases (and certainly my own) revival singers developed their style by listening to other revival singers. Folk music as performed on the folk scene is usually very different from how it was originally performed.

I do listen to source singers, but often to be informed rather than to be entertained. It can certainly be an acquired taste (the same can be said about opera or jazz) but it repays a bit of effort. Even so, I find a little goes a long way.

However it must be remembered that source singers don't always come across as well on record as in real life. It can be difficult to recreate the energy which comes naturally when performing to an audience, and simply having a mic in front of you can be inhibiting. In most cases the recordings were intended as a permanent record rather than to be released for entertainment, and they may have been made on sub-optimal equipment and in sub-optimal conditions. I am fortunate to have been able to listen to a number of traditional singers when they were still alive, and in most cases that was a very different experience from listening to recordings of them.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 08:29 AM

The concert that Joe Heaney did in Australia, recorded by Warren Fahey and up on his website is incredible.

On the other hand, listening to the interviews that 'collectors' did with Joe is just terrible, because you can hear that they just don't 'get' what Joe is trying to explain to them.

I think it may be because unless you hear the songs through the eyes and ears of someone raised in Connacht, listening around the peat fire in the evening, the songs don't speak to you.

I can listen to Joe sing for hours.

I cannot listen to orchestra backed opera singers with affected accents singing the peoples music of Ireland.

Also a plug for Song of Granite, a fantastic movie about source singers in Ireland and Joe's life.

---

https://www.warrenfahey.com.au/joe-heaney/

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 08:30 AM

I like all of it but not for the same reasons.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:04 AM

I've enjoyed many on this list: Planxty, Mike Harding, Bellowhead, Oyster Band (have on vinyl somewhere) also I like instrumental material eg Katherine Tickell, Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham, 'folk guitar' eg when v young I saw and liked Bert Jansch (who reached a young me in the way a source singer could never have done, same for Fairport and Steeleye Span). I fully admit to enjoying a good go of Wild Rover with table banging, it is fun and a social event and anybody who looks down on this is possibly what they call up themselves as far as I am concerned (though who am I to talk). I have enjoyed and played with Morris (melodeon, Oyster Girl, Staten Island, British Grenadiers etc) but it was the fun of dressing up and the rhythms of the clogs as much as anything else. Not much for the hanky waving stuff. Also some Cajun music in the past.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:05 AM

I would have loved to get some deeper understanding of some sort of Indian music but it doesn't look as if I ever shall now. The sounds and melodies are entrancing.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Mo the caller
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:16 AM

"Folk music as performed on the folk scene is usually very different from how it was originally performed."
Howard is probably right there, certainly that is true about dance. The way the dances of Jane Austen's day were performed back then / when they were first revival (only yesterday, or nearly 100 years ago depending on your viewpoint) / now at clubs full of pensioners / now at 'zesty' clubs are all very different, and a lot of people think the way they first learnt is the 'right' way.

My dislikes are mucked up tunes, but I like interesting arrangements (one man's meat...). I don't like singer-songwriters with guitars droning on in sessions. But there are exceptions. Hate guitarists who cant keep their fingers off the strings but noodle all the time. It annoys me when singers give the whole story away in the introduction - why bother singing it.
Likes - all the rest. Traditional singers and musicians like Martin Carthy and Alistair Anderson (or do I mean 'revival').

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:19 AM

Thanks for the info, Dave.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:29 AM

They sing the introduction? :)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:33 AM

Pseud,

Re your posting at 09.05

You might like to check out this site: http://www.sarangi.net/

Lots of info and videos of the real thing.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:36 AM

Define folk music?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:45 AM

John - bugger off :-P

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:56 AM

There's a lot of stuff labelled "folk music" which I don't exactly dislike but just zone out with. Almost any guitar-accompanied solo singing unless I already know the text well - I can hardly ever follow the words for any accompanied song of any genre, so it makes no difference to me whether a guy with a guitar is singing in English or Albanian.

One exception being Jean Redpath's collaboration with Serge Hovey, about the only accompanied Scottish song I can see any point in.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 10:38 AM

Top of the heap for me are traditional tunes of Ireland, Northumberland and Scotland (in that order). I can't sing but I love singing. If you sing down your nose I'm going for a wee. Singer-guitarists had better be bloody good guitarists and they should leave the harmonica rack at home. I adore Nic Jones. Over-embellished accompaniment and slick arrangements are just showing off. I like some Fairport and Steeleye but not much of it. I thought that Sandy Denny was wonderful. I'm a bit of a Shirley Collins completist for reasons I've never been able to understand. If you haven't got No Roses you haven't lived. No Watersons for me, thanks, or any of that Spiers/Boden racket. On the whole I dislike groups, especially the slick modern young bucks, but there's a special place in my heart for Planxty, the Bothies, Altan (seen 'em three times) and De Dannan. And Patrick Street, consummate musicians all. I can hear meself clapping on their live album. And Luke Kelly is absolute numero uno. I confess to listening and singing along to mucho Christy in the car. Seen Christy live four times. I saw loads of really good live acts at the Tree Inn Folk Club before its demise. House Band, Andy Irvine, Roy Bailey, Martin Carthy, Liam O'Flynn, Wizz Jones, Vin Garbutt, Wood/Cutting (superb), Davy Steele, Dick Gaughan, John Kirkpatrick, Jez Lowe and the Bad Pennies, Pauline Cato and Tom McConville (they were at the Garland Ox in Bodmin), Show of Hands, Noel Murphy (begod that man could sink pints), and a lot more that I feel I'm insulting by leaving them out due to forgetfulness. Oh, Ron Kavana and Friends, the ottimo. The nub is that I enjoyed all of 'em because I saw them live. I've always found something a bit odd about listening to traditional music on CDs, though I still do it, not so much these days, and there's nothing like doing it yourself. As for the old timers/source singers, well it has to be recordings only, which can be a drawback. Listening to old taped stuff can't convey what it must have been like to be there in the pub or the kitchen hearing them doing their stuff. But we can learn a lot about our heritage from them. In fact, if we no longer listen to them I'm not sure we can understand what our heritage is.

And no bloody award ceremonies or competitions, please!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 10:43 AM

I like most kinds of music, folk and otherwise. My tastes in folk covers a wide variety of styles..from Frankie Armstrong to Show of Hands...I don't know if they could be called "source" singers, but I do like the Watersons, Frank Profit , Hedy West and so on.
The kind I don't like are the overly preachy ones..Phil Ochs comes to mind. I also listen to a lot of instrumental folk, Nigel Eaton, Martin Simpson, Katherine Tickell.
I have never understood the desire to pigeon hole music or the insistence that we can only enjoy it if we listen intently. It seems to me that the things music should do is entertain us, fill us with Joy, make us want to sing along, make us want to dance...
It is a joyful thing but some seem to want to turn it into a cultural weapon....I say just embrace it and have fun.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:10 AM

And no bloody award ceremonies or competitions, please! 

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:21 AM

Spot on Vic. This back slapping onanistic smug self congratulatory practice, stinks. Until a horse wins one, then they're all bogus. ;)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:22 AM

Agree on Vin Garbutt and Roy Bailey (old school leftie), both of whom I saw live.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:38 AM

having heard, dave the gnome ,i am not surprised he doesnt like source singers.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:44 AM

"old school leftie"
Once again McCarthyism rears its ugly head
Why do people sink to this childish name calling (particularly as the world is once again teetering on the brink of war once again thanks to belligerent rightism) !!
Give it a rest please or become a member and take your politics below the line
It really does have no place here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:33 PM

You do have gift for “belligerent” hyperbole , Jim. It wasn’t,t McCarthyism, it was a simple comment about the singers political leanings, nothing more
many people, myself included, are often left cold by overly political preaching in songs. a good protest song is one thing, but rants are quite another, don,t you think ?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:35 PM

Not sure what that means, Dick. Would you not rather stick to the point and let us know your own likes and dislikes? For what it's worth, I do like some of the source stuff. As I said in the OP I just find some of the stuff not to my taste.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:36 PM

but why is it necessary to mention a singers, politics ,does anyone talk about johnny collins or peter bellamy and their political leanings

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:39 PM

I would like to keep this thread interesting and clean please.

Thanks in advance

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:47 PM

Following HiLo's post, I could have mentioned Woody Guthrie, one of my absolute heroes, who used songs politically but never via rants. He made his points via stories, poetic writing and life experiences, no preaching, no bitterness. I love Dick Gaughan, but on occasion he hits you directly between the eyes with his politics. Christy has been known to do the same. My politics are their politics, and I'm not saying that their approach isn't valid, but I prefer to be given the sentiment alone and to flesh out the politics for myself, which is what Woody does. When I see a great painting, just a little background is all I need. I don't need a great explanatory screed. Art can communicate for itself, if it's good art.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:50 PM

"...and a lot more that I feel I'm insulting by leaving them out due to forgetfulness."

Damn! And Brian Peters, of course!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,toubabdoc (David Levine)
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:02 PM

Re: "Old school leftie."Not necessarily an insult, Jimmy!
(Is this the Jimmu Carrol I used to know from the Critic's Group?)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:08 PM

I'm quite proud to say that during my time at Swinton Folk Club and Festival I personally booked Roy Bailey, Vin Garbutt and Brian Peters. I also booked Rumworth Morris, the Orlek Ukrainian Dance Troupe and Ghanaian story teller Tuup. May give a good indication of my likes :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:16 PM

I wouldn't call much of Roy Bailey's work "rants" either.

Come to think of it, the few singers-with-guitars I can appreciate are all the most political. Leon Rosselson and Anne Feeney can make every word count; neither has a reputation for instrumental pyrotechnics but they wouldn't want one.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:24 PM

I forgot one of my favourites too. Anthony John Clarke.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:54 PM

With English folk, at least, I like those that repeat the tune well - as I've detailed here.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:55 PM

here, sorry.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:21 PM

More xenophobe drivel linked there from Walkabout.

'Our streets full of foreign restaurants, our teams full of foreign footballers, our airwaves full of foreign music - modern England is a national disgrace.'

And more of it.

Mods should remove the links he posts.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:46 PM

Jim and your 'MacCarthyism' gibes: go away and grow up. This is one reason I liked the man for f's sake. This is a thread about music you like?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:54 PM

"Not necessarily an insult, Jimmy!"
When it is used to denigrate what folk performers have to say it becomes exactly that David

"Is this the Jimmu Carrol I used to know from the Critic's Group?"
I was a member of the Critics Group
"Is this the Jimmu Carrol I used to know from the Critic's Group?"
Don't remember either a David Levine or anybody named 'Jimmu" :-)
Ewan's mam used to call me Jimmy

" It wasn’t McCarthyism, it was a simple comment about the singers political leanings, nothing more"
See above
This individual has set out to depict folk music in its entirety as a "leftie wet dream" from day one
Obviously draws her information from Mad Maggie's handbook of political diplomacy
Jim

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:11 PM

Please, people. This is supposed to be about music likes and dislikes. If you dislike political songs, just say so. No need to turn it into a battle ground. That route only leads to closure.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:12 PM

"Old school leftie" as a descriptor of Roy Bailey was indeed totally uncalled for. Roy was a gentle, caring man whose politics was well-considered, well-informed and well-grounded, aware of our socialist roots but well-versed in modern mores. About 25 years ago we spent a lovely evening with him when his gig at our pub went a bit pear-shaped due to lack of publicity. He was gracious about it and gave us a full set of songs and he chatted with us for ages. One of the nicest chaps I've ever met. Crude characterisations such as the one made by Karen are completely inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

I don't seem to know what a Source Singer is.

I like everything but rap and modern jazz, as genres go. But I don't like a lot of music that falls into genres I usually like.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:25 PM

Is it OK to say that I bloody hate jazz, Dave? :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:28 PM

Well, Mrrzy, I'd never heard the term until I read the Walter thread. I suppose it's a convenient term but it's not accurate and it's a bit annoying. A bit like "folk scene." ;-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:56 PM

The term 'source singer' arose when some sectors of the folk scene started to describe revival singers as 'traditional singers' which was the term we always used for the likes of Walter. What terms would you like to see used instead of convenience terms 'source singer' and 'folk scene'? We're always looking to clarify.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

It certainly is, Steve. I used to think the same but accidentally fell into a Jazz festival when I was working in Brussels and found some bits I liked. I think the Trappist beers helped as well :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: meself
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 04:46 PM

Do you like and listen to recordings of the source singers?
Yes.

Do you prefer revival and present day singers?
No.

Do you like songs accompanied or unaccompanied?
No preference.

Do you like traditional, contemporary or both?
Trad, moreso.

What about electric folk?
Nope.

Dance music, social or ritual?
Sorry - what's the question? I like the dance music I like, if that helps ... ?