Types of folk music you like or dislike

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 05:45 AM

Not really a "type" of music, but an aspect of "our genre" that I dislike, is what I could misguidedly call unwarranted virtuosity. That's not the same thing as easy felicity, emanating from skill, a deep understanding of the music and the mastery of the instrument which makes the music sound amazing (and the lack of it :-( wot makes me sound positively clunky at times...) I can't listen to stuff that is making the instrument the point of the thing, rather than the music. I find that a lot of the young bucks especially are so anxious to show us how good they are on their fiddles/flutes/whistles, etc., that they can't resist playing flashily and/or with excessive speed. If you're playing a piece of Paganini, well you're supposed to be showing your virtuosity. But when it's applied to some jigs or reels I'm not happy. Know what I mean?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 06:23 AM

I do know what you mean. I get a bit marked when I hear a session get hijacked by someone who just wants to show off.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Booden Gad
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 06:49 AM

Irish tune players with no awareness of the lack of rhythm and interest in their phrasing, is a slight bleh of mine, I'd never comment just agree that they're great. No problem if they understand they have an issue though.
    The Like question is harder as there's so much past and present it would take some lengthy listing. Cormac Begley (concertina) is one of the current younger players who imo is showing the way. Lots to like as lots of great tune players around both young and old, happy days for us enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 09:20 AM

Inordinate speed seems to be a serious affliction of younger Irish players, or should I clarify- players of Irish music.

Younger players become older players, and arhythmic speed playing is becoming the norm. Many young players have never played for dancing, even 'Shoe the Donkey' or the 'Stack of Barley'and HERE LIES RHYTHM!!

However, it is true that some of the classic Irish players like Coleman, Morrison etc didn't hang about either, although their rhythm was always there.

I think there is a demand for fast, exciting music in many musical contexts, and maybe some of the 'tutors' and alleged experts (often with short apprenticeships in the music) are influenced by a parallel interest & taste for current genres of madcap pop music- hardly surprising?
Such tutors have a responsibility to emphasise the VARIETY of rhythms which make up Irish music, and make a point of listening to some more classic sources - e.g. Martin Byrnes, Bobby Gardiner, Leo Rowsome rather than globe-trotting 'Celtic' folk/rock bands who can remain nameless- no intention of starting a furore!   all IMHO of course

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 11:42 AM

I think the Morrisons and Colemans quite often went hell for leather because they were trying to fit their sets on to four-minute sides of 78s.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Joe G
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:08 PM

Steve - a friend of mine coined the term (well I think he did!) 'Mindless virtuosity' when we were watching a once famous (in folk circles!) trio many years ago!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:13 PM

Some truth in this, illustrated by the strange keys which were sometimes the result of '78' technicians speeding things up to fit the disc- four minutes was the exception rather than the rule- 3 minutes was and still is the length of a standard track/tune/disc

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Booden Gad
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:49 PM

I'm not too bothered by the speed as long as there is still clarity and rhythm. Can be fast,slow leisurely,or whatever as long as it sits right still, if you know what i mean. As i said we are lucky as plenty of fine players around.
    Telling the young fit and able not to play too fast is pointless when they have the chops, imo. Most mellow a bit as they age I'd imagine. Hurts my wrists and fingers watching some of them.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Joe G
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:57 PM

Love fast music as long as it still has feeling (which is hard to define you just know it when you hear it!)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 04:44 PM

Chops is one thing. Getting under the skin of the music is entirely another. I don't condemn all fast playing and I'd never insist that everything on a CD should be played at dance speed. A great example of a CD with a lot of fast playing that still sounds great (at least to my ear) is Barking Mad by Four Men and a Dog.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Joe G
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 04:47 PM

Yeah they were amazing!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 04:52 PM

>>>>>>I get a bit marked when I hear a session get hijacked by someone who just wants to show off.<<<<<<<

Spot on, Dave, but it doesn't just happen in Irish sessions. I have been known to speak up on odd occasions as you can imagine. Even worse when it's a mixed session and there are relative beginners trying to get to grips. To compound things this one I'm thinking of used to arrive late at session and then play all the tunes that had already been played at normal speed, at twice the speed.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 06:58 PM

By the way, Steve, grrr. "Stevie G" is it now. Well you know that there is only one Stevie G, he dressed in red and his surname is Gerrard... I'm thinking you did that on purpose...

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 04:54 AM

A world famous jazz musician once despaired of some of the younger generation of players as playing "fast nothing". I hear far too much of that in Scotland these days. I don't condemn it. I just ignore it.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 05:17 AM

This is about the music we like & dislike- if it is me who is being accused of 'showing off', you need to be more specific.
I thought I was fairly clear that I have a dislike of arhythmic Irish music as that was the subject of discussion- this is normally fast music and Irish music seems to be especially afflicted- maybe Scottish too, says Kenny, but I wouldn't know?

However, slow airs can be similarly mangled by a lack of understanding of the music & I gave examples of mature musicians to listen to- there are plenty more....

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 09:15 AM

I certainly wasn't alluding to you, Crumbly. I don't even know who you are! There are some who enjoy the 100mph sessions but I personally don't. I agree with you about the rhythm mainly but there are certain tunes and songs which do change rhythm - Princess Royal for instance - where it does work.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Joe G
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:16 AM

One important musician I forgot to mention in my 'likes' is the late Martyn Bennett - just been reminded by a track of his being played on the BBC Folk Programme which I'm catching up with. He created some of the most interesting, exciting and innovative interpretations of folk song I've ever heard - his album Grit is astonishing!

Certainly not one for the folk purists but highly recommnded for open minded folkies who have not heard his work yet

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 12:36 PM

NO i wasn't referring to your post, dave...

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 12:51 PM

Ah, Ok. Thanks for the clarification Crumbly.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 03:08 PM

I remember one match at the KC Stadium where Stevie G was made to look quite ordinary, but I concede that didn't happen very often.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

Dave,
Congratulations on getting the 100 in on your own thread!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 10:57 AM

not as many as Ben Stokes today.....

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 08:49 AM

On a programme where famous folks are taken back to the holiday spots of their childhood (Holiday of my Lifetime, ITV), I just heard Daniel O'Donnell sing unaccompanied, in a pub where he got his first break, about County Donegal.

That was a great piece of Irish culture but then they showed a clip of him backed by the sounds of American country which is a great shame, in my opinion.

I checked Wiki and it says his "music has been described as a mix of country and Irish folk,"...why not just stick to the latter which, as I say, he does very well..?! More related thoughts here.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 09:13 AM

Daniel O'Donnell and the word "culture" do not belong in the same sentence/paragraph/chapter/book/bookshelf/library.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 09:30 AM

Steve - unaccompanied singing is very much a part of traditional Irish culture and, if you use ITV's hub to check the abovementioned programme, I think you will agree he did that very well.

When I turned up on the comp days/Saturdays of folk festivals in Durham and Northumberland a few years ago, I heard some very good unaccompanied singers there, also - especially among the females, frankly.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 09:39 AM

'unaccompanied singing is very much a part of traditional Irish culture'

Which does not, ofcourse, mean any unaccompanied singing becomes 'traditional' or even 'folk' (which in Ireland implies different things).

DOD, is, well, a successful entertainer and celebrity. If you're into that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 11:38 AM

This an opportunity not to be missed for DOD jokes....

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 11:54 AM

This type? :

Daniel : a gas man

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 01:11 PM

As Dirty Harry said, Peter, "a man's got to know his limitations"...in DOD's case, leaving faulty boilers (gas, that is) to registered installers and American culture to Americans.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 01:16 PM

He can sing whatever he likes and take his inspiration wherever he likes. He is extremely popular doing what he does. And not everybody has to like it.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 20 - 07:10 PM

Please include me in not everybody.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jan 20 - 02:34 PM

You mean you wouldn't buy a used car of DOD, have him recommend a plumber and/or listen to his best sean-nós, Steve?!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 20 - 09:41 PM

I could suggest that you take some time to listen to some real sean-nos.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 12:45 PM

I've heard enough, Steve, to know that the unaccompanied singing mentioned above was not in the old style/sean-nós...but I'm also sure DOD would know of it and has probably had a go at it.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 12:59 PM

Shall we move swiftly on?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 01:21 PM

but why no jokes?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 01:47 PM

The way the thread has just turned is amusing in itself...

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 01:48 PM

Why did DOD lean toward American country music?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,P
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 02:01 PM

He is an easy listening jobbing singer. It's popular, it suits him, why wouldn't he? His audiences laps it up.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 02:05 PM

No no, Guest P - as a youngster, he only caught the last 2 words when he overheard a local shepherd exclaim: "Donegal is God's country!"

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jan 20 - 02:08 PM

Sorry, previous was by me and it left before I finished it.

This is the stuff DOD does :

Opry le Daniel

And while we're there, this is solid traditional music :

Sé Mo Laoch

And this is Sean Nos:

Songs of Granite

I can't guarantee you can see any or all of it outside Ireland. It's all there for now anyway.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:58 AM

folkies don't like DOD because he knows his audience & gives them what they want- it may be 99pc schmaltz but heyho that's what the folk (in the broad sense) seem to want

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:50 AM

Most of the time I like to be challenged by music. Giving people what they want isn't always a good thing. I can think of public beheadings, brexit and Big Macs...


Don't discuss... :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:56 AM

Is this the “folk snobbery” thread ? sounds like it .

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 06:29 AM

No!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 07:15 AM

If you are from Liverpool Guest HiLo, please don't do what Tommy did!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 08:22 AM

Do you like and listen to recordings of the source singers?

No. I don't enjoy listening to that stuff. I may listen to it for research only, words or tune. Source musicians on the other hand can be good to listen to for their own sake (whether they are singing or not).

Do you prefer revival and present day singers?

Yes.

Do you like songs accompanied or unaccompanied?

Accompanied, definitely .... that's not to say I never enjoy hearing or singing uninstrumented song, but solo or unison stuff is so so often uninteresting tortuous, makes me miserable and angry, that it's easier just to skip it all.

Do you like traditional, contemporary or both?

I like a lot of folk songs, listening and playing. And I like a lot of other songs. Unfortunately I often find that my idea of what "original songs written in the folk tradition" are does not align with the ideas of people who usually say that phrase.

Like one poster above, I really hate all parody songs. All of them. And on a related but different note I am not that into original comedy songs either.


What about electric folk?

Yes I can like it, but I like it because it is good, not because it is electric. For example, definitely far and away my favourite recording of Wild Mountain Thyme is the one from the Scotland advert off the telly. And I like some folk song renditions that are a lot more hardcore and distant from traditional renditions than that. But equally there are a lot of experimental versions of folk music that are just painful for me to listen to.

Also I can't listen to the older electric stuff a lot of folkies seem to like (of course I mean fairport conventian and steeleye span, about as relevant to me as the beatles, which is to say completely irrelevant).

Dance music, social or ritual?

Social dance music: yes to occasionally doing all or any of listening, playing, dancing. Ritual: never.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Hochma Gandhi
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 05:12 PM

Anything by Eddi Reader - especially tomorrow night.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:35 PM

That's the spirit, Hochma!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 03:35 AM

WHEN I was booked at 2019 chippenham folk festival I was impressed with JACK RUTTER. and Nick Dow