Types of folk music you like or dislike

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 01:06 PM

Thanks meself but I wasn't being apologetic or defensive - honest! Sorry if I have that impression. I was just hoping to show what a broad church folk music is and that Whatever part of it you like is OK.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: meself
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 12:10 PM

DTG: You sound rather apologetic and defensive about your tastes - I don't know why. You asked people what they like and they told you; they didn't attack you. You may still proudly call yourself a "folky" ... !

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 12:00 PM

Not surprised he hasn't posted then. Enjoying himself too much :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Nick
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 11:58 AM

Rumour (or Big brother) has it he was last seen in the Half Moon Inn in Durham about 1 hour ago

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 11:12 AM

BTW, anyone know where JoeG is? I think he would enjoy contributing to this thread and I would like his views.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 11:06 AM

Judging by this thread, and I know it is not a proper sample, there seem to be more people that enjoy source singers than not. While I do get some enjoyment out of listening to the recordings, I enjoy other forms a lot more. I do not really want to spend time on one thing where I can get more pleasure out of another. I don't think that means that I am not a "folky". I still love many other aspects of folk and will continue to benefit from and contribute to folk music for as long as I am able. I'll just accept that I'm in a minority and stop letting it bother me :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 09:41 AM

Well I've played hundreds of Irish tunes in pubs over the decades, almost all down yer in Cornwall, but I'm not sure that any of those occasions would have qualified as an Irish session. I did go to Dublin once, and went to (and played in) the Cobblestone. The sessions in there were fast, and had their complements of strummers and a dreaded bodhran or two, and admittedly all the tunes were Irish. Quality was high, but were they true sessions or paid gigs?? Another night I went to Hughes' Bar. The session in there was fiddles, flutes and Gay McKeon on the pipes :-) The pace was always very moderate. No drummers, no strummers, no pluckers. Not much conversation or drinking either, just a bunch of excellent players enjoying themselves and playing just for themselves. The next night I went to a pub just round the corner from the Auld Triangle pub, a long way up the hill from the centre of Dublin, I can't remember its name, invited to a session run by a lovely lady called Marion McEvoy. There was a bit of strumming and drumming but it was all in very good taste and I was cordially invited to sit in. Was that a true session? When we played in pubs down the years we always attracted extra customers (we wouldn't have got all that free beer otherwise!), but there was a fair smattering of songs and non-Irish tunes mixed in with the diddley. One aspect that always kept me going was my determination to play just for ourselves and not try to pretend we were putting on some kind of performance for the pub customers. It's great when people enjoy what we do, a bonus I'd say, and there's nowt wrong with the odd singalong song, but generally we just played for each other. I suppose that the big English cities may have sessions that are closer to qualifying as Irish sessions. The past tense signifies that my hearing has let me down enough by now to confine my noodling to my kitchen.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 09:33 AM

Hi, PFR, source singers are people who are sources of traditional songs. They learned songs through tradition instead of through commercial processes. They are the ones folk song collectors went to, to collect early field recordings.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 08:03 AM

That could be it, Dick. I know I like East European music because it is what I grew up with. Not sure why I like Scottish music so much. I like English dance music because I used to dance both socially and, occasionaly, Morris. Can't do Morris now with my knees but did manage a good few dances at a ceilidh last year -)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 07:26 AM

Dave , the problem with some irish sessions is that sometimes the musicians do not think about varying the rythyms so the listener can be given reel after reel instead of a slip jig, a slide, ahornpipe, a reel, a polka,

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 07:26 AM

I am still unclear on source singer but hey ho.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 05:06 AM

I may also be unusual on the Mudcat in that I'm not a big fan of Irish sessions. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some of the music well enough but I like more English and Scottish tunes and, to a certain extent, East European music. Could be in the genes I suppose but while I do have a little Irish in me, I have no Scottish blood at all. Yet I love the music. And the whisky but that's another story:-) The best session I ever heard (I don't join in. Not good enough) was at the Peveril of the Peak in Manchester where the Music was from all over the world. A sadly departed friend of mine, John Snelson (Pied Piper on here) had a hand in that one. Just out of interest.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 04:45 AM

1. Do you like and listen to recordings of the source singers?

Yes.

2. Do you prefer revival and present day singers?

No.

3. Do you like songs accompanied or unaccompanied?

No preference.

4. Do you like traditional, contemporary or both?

Lean more towards Trad songs that tell stories, a few present day writers manage to do this, most do not.

5. What about electric folk?

Nope, not as long as my butt points downwards.


6. Dance music, social or ritual?

Don't dance, don't go to dances so never listen to it.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 03:25 AM


Quite an interesting aspect of much classical music was the extent to which it was Influenced by folk music

I had a quite long and as usual fruitless discussion with someone online on that topic when the BBC first decided to allocate a day of the Proms to folk music. Naturally, and to some extent understandably, my debater felt this was detracting from the classical nature of the proms.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 02:32 AM

Amen to that, Steve!

I mentioned changing trends in folk and other genres earlier. One thing that is consistent with all types of music. The good survives. Good music also seems to bridge genres but I guess that deserves a thread of its own :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 07:14 PM

Quite an interesting aspect of much classical music was the extent to which it was Influenced by folk music. Mozart wrote a number of country dances, Dvorak got much inspiration from American tunes, Brahms, the ould bearded curmudgeon, spent most evenings in a village pub sitting in a corner on his own and really appreciated the local pub bands (I haven't spotted much of their influence in his music, though he did write all those Hungarian Dances), we needn't even mention Vaughan Williams or George Butterworth, and above all Beethoven, who not only set (nicely but unauthentically) some British folk songs but who also repeatedly parodied, always in a very affectionate way, country dance bands, slightly but delightfully losing their rhythm, in the "peasants' merrymaking" in the Pastoral Symphony, in the Allegro ma non tanto second movement (the trio bit) of his late A minor string quartet and in the memorable rustic stomp in the finale of the late E flat string quartet. Slightly pissed pub bands cropping up in some of the sublime masterpieces of western music: what's not to love!   It's really good to see these connections. Maybe there isn't folk, classical, jazz and pop. Maybe there's just music!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:18 PM

I suppose I like a bit of everything, but I generally don't like "singer-songwriters," unless they are writing in a traditional style. I tend to seek out people who sing songs I can learn and sing. I don't really like to perform solo, although I sometimes do. My favorite thing to do, is to sing with other people. I've been involved in various forms of community singing since I was about ten years old, and I still can't get enough of it.

I used to like Peter Paul and Mary and the Kingston Trio and Limeliters and all that folk revival stuff of the 1950s and 1960s, but I think I've mostly outgrown them. Bok-Muir-Trickett and the Golden Ring albums that Sandy Paton and others recorded, are more to my liking now.

I like Roy Bailey a lot, often more than the people he got his songs from.

I like listening to and learning from source singers, but in small doses.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 06:16 PM

Dunno, Steve. I'm a bit of an outsider when it comes to English traditional music, revelling as I mostly do in Irish tunery. "Scene" seems a bit pretentious and "source singers" is definitely inaccurate. Still, I only mentioned it, and I haven't got any convenient alternatives to hand. I can live with both terms, even though I might avoid using them.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 05:02 PM

We have an annual jazz festival in Bude. I'm still not impressed! We did see Acker Bilk there many years ago. That was grand. The only other jazz gig I went to was Humph's band in Exeter, six weeks before Humph unexpectedly died. A. bunch of old buggers with nothing to prove, no showing off, really enjoying themselves. Humph came out at the end and chatted to us and drew a lovely sketch in the book of his we'd bought for my dad-in-law. I can live with that. Humph told a joke about Barry Cryer.

Barry: "Have you ever shoed a horse?"

Humph: "No, but I once told a pig to piss off."

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: meself
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 04:46 PM

Do you like and listen to recordings of the source singers?
Yes.

Do you prefer revival and present day singers?
No.

Do you like songs accompanied or unaccompanied?
No preference.

Do you like traditional, contemporary or both?
Trad, moreso.

What about electric folk?
Nope.

Dance music, social or ritual?
Sorry - what's the question? I like the dance music I like, if that helps ... ?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

It certainly is, Steve. I used to think the same but accidentally fell into a Jazz festival when I was working in Brussels and found some bits I liked. I think the Trappist beers helped as well :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:56 PM

The term 'source singer' arose when some sectors of the folk scene started to describe revival singers as 'traditional singers' which was the term we always used for the likes of Walter. What terms would you like to see used instead of convenience terms 'source singer' and 'folk scene'? We're always looking to clarify.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:28 PM

Well, Mrrzy, I'd never heard the term until I read the Walter thread. I suppose it's a convenient term but it's not accurate and it's a bit annoying. A bit like "folk scene." ;-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:25 PM

Is it OK to say that I bloody hate jazz, Dave? :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:23 PM

I don't seem to know what a Source Singer is.

I like everything but rap and modern jazz, as genres go. But I don't like a lot of music that falls into genres I usually like.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:12 PM

"Old school leftie" as a descriptor of Roy Bailey was indeed totally uncalled for. Roy was a gentle, caring man whose politics was well-considered, well-informed and well-grounded, aware of our socialist roots but well-versed in modern mores. About 25 years ago we spent a lovely evening with him when his gig at our pub went a bit pear-shaped due to lack of publicity. He was gracious about it and gave us a full set of songs and he chatted with us for ages. One of the nicest chaps I've ever met. Crude characterisations such as the one made by Karen are completely inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 03:11 PM

Please, people. This is supposed to be about music likes and dislikes. If you dislike political songs, just say so. No need to turn it into a battle ground. That route only leads to closure.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:54 PM

"Not necessarily an insult, Jimmy!"
When it is used to denigrate what folk performers have to say it becomes exactly that David

"Is this the Jimmu Carrol I used to know from the Critic's Group?"
I was a member of the Critics Group
"Is this the Jimmu Carrol I used to know from the Critic's Group?"
Don't remember either a David Levine or anybody named 'Jimmu" :-)
Ewan's mam used to call me Jimmy

" It wasn’t McCarthyism, it was a simple comment about the singers political leanings, nothing more"
See above
This individual has set out to depict folk music in its entirety as a "leftie wet dream" from day one
Obviously draws her information from Mad Maggie's handbook of political diplomacy
Jim

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:46 PM

Jim and your 'MacCarthyism' gibes: go away and grow up. This is one reason I liked the man for f's sake. This is a thread about music you like?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 02:21 PM

More xenophobe drivel linked there from Walkabout.

'Our streets full of foreign restaurants, our teams full of foreign footballers, our airwaves full of foreign music - modern England is a national disgrace.'

And more of it.

Mods should remove the links he posts.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:55 PM

here, sorry.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:54 PM

With English folk, at least, I like those that repeat the tune well - as I've detailed here.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:24 PM

I forgot one of my favourites too. Anthony John Clarke.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:16 PM

I wouldn't call much of Roy Bailey's work "rants" either.

Come to think of it, the few singers-with-guitars I can appreciate are all the most political. Leon Rosselson and Anne Feeney can make every word count; neither has a reputation for instrumental pyrotechnics but they wouldn't want one.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:08 PM

I'm quite proud to say that during my time at Swinton Folk Club and Festival I personally booked Roy Bailey, Vin Garbutt and Brian Peters. I also booked Rumworth Morris, the Orlek Ukrainian Dance Troupe and Ghanaian story teller Tuup. May give a good indication of my likes :-)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,toubabdoc (David Levine)
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 01:02 PM

Re: "Old school leftie."Not necessarily an insult, Jimmy!
(Is this the Jimmu Carrol I used to know from the Critic's Group?)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:50 PM

"...and a lot more that I feel I'm insulting by leaving them out due to forgetfulness."

Damn! And Brian Peters, of course!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:47 PM

Following HiLo's post, I could have mentioned Woody Guthrie, one of my absolute heroes, who used songs politically but never via rants. He made his points via stories, poetic writing and life experiences, no preaching, no bitterness. I love Dick Gaughan, but on occasion he hits you directly between the eyes with his politics. Christy has been known to do the same. My politics are their politics, and I'm not saying that their approach isn't valid, but I prefer to be given the sentiment alone and to flesh out the politics for myself, which is what Woody does. When I see a great painting, just a little background is all I need. I don't need a great explanatory screed. Art can communicate for itself, if it's good art.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:39 PM

I would like to keep this thread interesting and clean please.

Thanks in advance

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:36 PM

but why is it necessary to mention a singers, politics ,does anyone talk about johnny collins or peter bellamy and their political leanings

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:35 PM

Not sure what that means, Dick. Would you not rather stick to the point and let us know your own likes and dislikes? For what it's worth, I do like some of the source stuff. As I said in the OP I just find some of the stuff not to my taste.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:33 PM

You do have gift for “belligerent” hyperbole , Jim. It wasn’t,t McCarthyism, it was a simple comment about the singers political leanings, nothing more
many people, myself included, are often left cold by overly political preaching in songs. a good protest song is one thing, but rants are quite another, don,t you think ?

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:44 AM

"old school leftie"
Once again McCarthyism rears its ugly head
Why do people sink to this childish name calling (particularly as the world is once again teetering on the brink of war once again thanks to belligerent rightism) !!
Give it a rest please or become a member and take your politics below the line
It really does have no place here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:38 AM

having heard, dave the gnome ,i am not surprised he doesnt like source singers.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:22 AM

Agree on Vin Garbutt and Roy Bailey (old school leftie), both of whom I saw live.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:21 AM

Spot on Vic. This back slapping onanistic smug self congratulatory practice, stinks. Until a horse wins one, then they're all bogus. ;)

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:10 AM

And no bloody award ceremonies or competitions, please! 

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 10:43 AM

I like most kinds of music, folk and otherwise. My tastes in folk covers a wide variety of styles..from Frankie Armstrong to Show of Hands...I don't know if they could be called "source" singers, but I do like the Watersons, Frank Profit , Hedy West and so on.
The kind I don't like are the overly preachy ones..Phil Ochs comes to mind. I also listen to a lot of instrumental folk, Nigel Eaton, Martin Simpson, Katherine Tickell.
I have never understood the desire to pigeon hole music or the insistence that we can only enjoy it if we listen intently. It seems to me that the things music should do is entertain us, fill us with Joy, make us want to sing along, make us want to dance...
It is a joyful thing but some seem to want to turn it into a cultural weapon....I say just embrace it and have fun.

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 10:38 AM

Top of the heap for me are traditional tunes of Ireland, Northumberland and Scotland (in that order). I can't sing but I love singing. If you sing down your nose I'm going for a wee. Singer-guitarists had better be bloody good guitarists and they should leave the harmonica rack at home. I adore Nic Jones. Over-embellished accompaniment and slick arrangements are just showing off. I like some Fairport and Steeleye but not much of it. I thought that Sandy Denny was wonderful. I'm a bit of a Shirley Collins completist for reasons I've never been able to understand. If you haven't got No Roses you haven't lived. No Watersons for me, thanks, or any of that Spiers/Boden racket. On the whole I dislike groups, especially the slick modern young bucks, but there's a special place in my heart for Planxty, the Bothies, Altan (seen 'em three times) and De Dannan. And Patrick Street, consummate musicians all. I can hear meself clapping on their live album. And Luke Kelly is absolute numero uno. I confess to listening and singing along to mucho Christy in the car. Seen Christy live four times. I saw loads of really good live acts at the Tree Inn Folk Club before its demise. House Band, Andy Irvine, Roy Bailey, Martin Carthy, Liam O'Flynn, Wizz Jones, Vin Garbutt, Wood/Cutting (superb), Davy Steele, Dick Gaughan, John Kirkpatrick, Jez Lowe and the Bad Pennies, Pauline Cato and Tom McConville (they were at the Garland Ox in Bodmin), Show of Hands, Noel Murphy (begod that man could sink pints), and a lot more that I feel I'm insulting by leaving them out due to forgetfulness. Oh, Ron Kavana and Friends, the ottimo. The nub is that I enjoyed all of 'em because I saw them live. I've always found something a bit odd about listening to traditional music on CDs, though I still do it, not so much these days, and there's nothing like doing it yourself. As for the old timers/source singers, well it has to be recordings only, which can be a drawback. Listening to old taped stuff can't convey what it must have been like to be there in the pub or the kitchen hearing them doing their stuff. But we can learn a lot about our heritage from them. In fact, if we no longer listen to them I'm not sure we can understand what our heritage is.

And no bloody award ceremonies or competitions, please!

Subject: RE: Types of folk music you like or dislike
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:56 AM

There's a lot of stuff labelled "folk music" which I don't exactly dislike but just zone out with. Almost any guitar-accompanied solo singing unless I already know the text well - I can hardly ever follow the words for any accompanied song of any genre, so it makes no difference to me whether a guy with a guitar is singing in English or Albanian.

One exception being Jean Redpath's collaboration with Serge Hovey, about the only accompanied Scottish song I can see any point in.