BS: UK politics

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 07:06 AM

Keir Starmer's supporters don't need to compromise anyway. Keir is a massive compromise on legs. I haven't looked but it sounds to me like a whole bunch of leading questions might have been asked.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 07:26 AM

FYI
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/01/21/five-more-things-we-discovered-about-labour-member

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 09:42 AM

Can't the new Labour leader be selected on the basis of a performance review
after 12 months probation...???

Which gives a year to seriously search the party for a better and more charismatic replacement in waiting...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 10:31 AM

Well.. a purpose iains serves for me is saving me wasting too much time keeping up
with the vilest right wing youtubers,
who i absolutely detest.

He at least provides a daily condensed round up of 'propaganda briefings' of the day
in a slightly more tolerable format...

By now I [some of us..??] can infiltrate and pass accepted amongst them talking their language..
which could be handy in knowing and fighting the enemy...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 11:03 AM

Just as I thought, a plethora of dirt-digging and/or leading questions. A useless survey, meant to feed into the confirmation bias of brainless Mail readers. The extremely misleadingly-named YouGov (doesn't that sound so official!) is a private polling/market research company founded twenty years ago by a pair of Tory politicians. Just so as you know. "Oi, I'm talking to you, guv" would be more respectable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 11:12 AM

I am polled by YouGov periodically. Anyone who asks my opinion should not be trusted :-)

However, there are occasions where their surveys can be useful. Particularly when no one else is providing any statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 11:30 AM

The particular yougov survey in question merely repeats what any rational political "analyst" knows anyway. If young beccie is a corbyn clone it is no surprise that she is adhering to the ideology of the leader. If her acolytes also adhere to the leader's utterances then electability is doomed.
No skin off my nose, Labour is obviously finished. Their days of frustrating brexit are now over.

it really is none of your business. you have no positive interest in the party or its members,
Labour has wasted nearly 4 years frustrating brexit. That is very much my business.
It is not my problem you do not like my analysis of Labour's failure.
Try and show me any error! I an confident that as long as labour places ideology above popularity they will never become a serious political entity. That is very much your problem, not mine. I find the idea of Labour consigned to the wastelands a very attractive proposition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 11:46 AM

Will folks stop blathering on about brexit after this month..

Or is the obsession too deep set and pathological...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 12:09 PM

Pfr - the 31st January wont be the end of Brexit- it is just the start. That’s when the Brexiteers will begin to understand the depth of their gullibility, and the full measure of their stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 12:23 PM

BWM - of course.. we'd be too decent and honourable to gloat...

while grinding their faces into the mire of their own making,
as putrid dark evil fluids ooze from every pore of their skin,
and all orifices of their rotting living dead carcasses...

ermm.. ..ummm. excuse me.. what were we saying..
ah yes.. we'd be much kinder to them as they realise their mistakes...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 12:30 PM

YouGov appears to be a conservatively-owned site that has bought shares in enough legitimate polling sites that when you try to search on opinions OF YouGov you only hit YouGov's results about itself.

Alarm bells should be going off when that site appears as the source of data.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 12:40 PM

And there's nothing random about YouGov. You can join it on their website and you get paid in points to fill in their "surveys." Eventually you can covert the points into money. Random surveys shouldn't be able to be completed by self-selected people who are in it for the dough. Looking into this as someone who's never joined a polling company, I now realise why I've never been polled about anything in my whole life. I'm beginning to understand why opinion polls have been so unreliable in recent years...I think...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 01:21 PM

.. or for the most part just ignore surveys and statistics,
which usually only serve to confirm prior bias,
and underpin propaganda..

"But instead talk and listen to a widest range of people
with as open a mind as possible,"
before arriving at our own intelligent independent evaluations..

But then, I'm not a pseudo political scientist...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 01:46 PM

In the meantime, some interesting news from Vancouver Island, BC. concerning Jackson and Zoë...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 02:26 PM

Too much reliance on, hiding behind, surveys and statistics
enables uncaring petty officious people to distance themselves into an abstract view of society,
even further removed from having to consider the realities of ordinary people
and their stressful problem bound lives...

Hence tory benefit regulations and bureaucracy, etc,
and at worst the pernicious banal evils of right wing governments...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 03:07 PM

”Subject: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 Jan 20 - 01:58 PM

We have been given the thumbs up for a new politics thread. The rules are no personal abuse and no trolling. These actions will only result in thread closure. Any comments on how the current administration is performing? Good or bad. Any views on the Labour leadership contest? Anything else related to politics would be fine. Any attempts to start a fight or abuse fellow Mudcatters will be frowned upon.”

Just a reminder...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 04:16 PM

I posted in December that the official unemployment figure was 1,218,000.

Yesterday the figure was 1,306,000.

An additional 88,000 people.

Hmmm ................ universal credit anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 04:29 PM

The OECD says the TRUE unemployment number should be three million higher - over four million, or 13%.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 04:51 PM

they never count me - I'm one of the hidden who know's how many
who got fed up jumping through hoops and having my life taken over
just to claim NI contributions...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 05:07 PM

As I said in my previous post governments of ALL persuasions have manipulated the figures.

I am merely highlighting the additional 88,000 thousand people, and their families, who are now faced with trying to get some support from the PRESENT government.

What price Universal Credit eh ............. !!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM

”As I said in my previous post governments of ALL persuasions have manipulated the figures.”

Errrmmm...no, you didn’t say that - read your post again!

But you’re correct, numbers are ‘massaged’ by governments no matter whether Left or Right, and the goalposts for measuring these stats are changed from time to time, which makes comparisons of different time-frames difficult, if not impossible, for mere mortals like us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 06:11 PM

Send lawyers, guns and money to deal with the leftwaffe!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 06:17 PM

All I know is my wife couldn't afford to keep both of us on her public sector salary before tory austerity..
and we're in a damn sight more debt now
because I'm forever excluded from claiming any benefits because she earns a salary...

Don't even know if or when I'll ever get a pension.
Not raising my hopes if Labour continues to fuck up for another decade or more...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 20 - 06:21 PM

Bonz - I'll take the money option thanks..
though I wouldn't mind some guns as well..

They'll probably be allowed on sale in Britain soon enough
as Boris apes Trump's USA politics...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 02:16 AM

"Cooperation morphed into domination. Sovereignty morphed into superstate. And that is why Britain is going..."
Anne Widdecombe
The Government has announced its official plans to commemorate Britain leaving the EU at 11pm on 31st January, however a new victory has been won after minister Nigel Adams signed off on the Union Jack being flown down the Mall to celebrate Brexit.

In addition to the Union Jack flying in Parliament Square, a light display will be in Downing Street and a countdown clock will be projected against No. 10.

The House of Lords has opted to end its legislative tussle with the Commons, as peers vote in favour of passing Boris Johnson's Brexit Bill. The unelected peers bowed to the will of the Commons after MPs overturned five amendments to the divorce deal. The Bill now goes forward for Royal Assent.(they finally wised up to the 1911 Parliament Act)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 02:55 AM

In the light of the sad passing of Terry Jones It is now time for something completely different:
Not long ago there was a vogue for the work of the American experimental psychologist, Professor Jonathan Haidt. The professor writes about the psychology of moral and political beliefs. Part of his thesis is that left-wing and right-wing sentiments are not symmetrical. He says if you get a group of right-leaning folk to write down in factual terms what they think their left-leaning opponents believe, you will find they can on the whole give a passable exposition of them; they can describe views which they do not share, and identify points of difference. They can respect their opponents’ rationality, even while reaching different conclusions. However, if you ask a group of left-inclined folk to write down what they think their opponents believe, they cannot do this in factual terms, falling instead into derision and scorn. The professor claims this as more than a mere impression; he says it is an experimental finding.

It certainly seems to be true on this forum!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: BobL
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 03:57 AM

Well yes, the lefties still accuse Tory supporters of being motivated by greed, but the righties don't accuse Labour supporters of being motivated by envy (though they once did).

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:07 AM

Once we get Bonzos "Leftwaffe" comment and silly generalisations about faux psychology to demonize an entire section of society we know that enough is enough. I suspect more deletions or thread closure are imminent unless you can stick to proper political argument. You did it earlier. Why spoil it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:16 AM

The most abusive posters on this thread, and many others like it, are the Right-Wing element. We don’t need any quack-psychology, there’s evidence a-plenty in black and white.

Like Dave, I believe the death of this thread is imminent - killed of by the usual Right-Wing wreckers. It’s a shame, some of us thave been trying to keep it on track.

Anybody see Emma Thornberry on The Neill Prog? Any views?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Monique
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:20 AM

Rule #1 in sociolinguistics: Who speaks?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:20 AM

Here ya go! The dangers of the blob!
Can't wait to see DC sink his fangs into it!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/01/22/now-never-boris-must-beat-blob-suffocated/
A massive cull of civil servants is long overdue - they are nothing but a fifth column. They are employed to implement policy, not make it or frustrate it.
Dominic is going to be a busy boy.
Perhaps he is Vinnie the enforcer to Boris the blade!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:37 AM

One of my ways of rationalising UK politics it to see the voters' spectrum as a Gaussian hump for Tory and another for Labour. Their relative positions are currently polarized and far apart such that the overlap leaves little room for any consensus.

We clearly have a ruling figurehead who is prepared to say anything to get and maintain his leadership. In short a turncoat.

The other figurehead has been a person who didn't strive for the job and was given as concession to pity.

Labour has a record of choosing the wrong leader Michael Foot, the wrong Milliband etc. The only leaders that did win elections have been vilified as opportunists. Wilson and Blair. BUT to be effective you have to be in power. The person has to be pretty, as well as pretty effective.

You may ask why isn't Boris pretty. Well to some, Jack the Lad (emphasis on Jack) - is evidence of ruthlessness. So it turncoaterie (sic). Pretty is as Pretty does!

And it all depends on the choices. We have just had a campaign with certain/"us not them" flavour on one side and a uncertain/"what about Johnny foreigner" on the other. Pretty comes in many flavours, don'tya know?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:13 AM

Thanks Monique. I got a fair way through that and hope to get back to it when I have more time. What I did see was that Haidt is referring to the American concept of conservative and liberal, not, getting back to the topic, the British political categories of left and right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 06:41 AM

I studied moral philosophy / moral education as a component of my deree nearly 40 years ago..

It's too long ago to remember much, but conservative ideas didn't come out of it too well..

So when conservatives appropriate moral philosophy and claim the moral high ground,
we can be sure something dodgy is afoot...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 06:57 AM

Can't wait to see DC sink his fangs into it!

Why bring me into this?

DC
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 07:41 AM

I thought it was DC comics. Superman vs the civil service? Batman's latest enemy - BoJoker? Green Lantern turns red?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 08:03 AM

Dot Cotton is a bloke...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 08:15 AM

No, a URL

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 08:36 AM

Dot Cotton was a bloke in Line Of Duty...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 09:59 AM

DC the nemesis of corbyn clowns.
We’re all living in Dominic Cummings’ world now


https://www.politico.eu/article/dominic-cummings-uk-electio-2019-strategy-conservative-victory/

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 10:20 AM

.. but who does he actually work for...???

What are the top 5 conspiracy theories...??????

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 10:59 AM

The view from the Antipodes.

I have to say that I find it rather amusing that those who claimed their ‘Leave’ vote (including several on this forum, one of whom is no longer with us) was a vote against the elite establishment were, in fact, voting to give the elite establishment precisely what it wanted.

Never were so many misled and confused by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 11:15 AM

When ya can't make sense if it have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 11:47 AM

2.42pm update: Brexit bill gets Royal Assent

Boris Johnson's Brexit bill was given Royal Assent today, thus enshrining the UK's exit into law.

The UK will now proceed to leave the trade bloc on January 31.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 11:56 AM

The UK is EXPECTED to leave the trade bloc on December 31.

Comment is free but facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 12:12 PM

The EU Parliament’s outgoing Brexit co-ordinator said voting to support the divorce deal was not a show of support for the UK’s departure from the bloc. He declared it a “very sad moment” but admitted MEPs must ensure the UK leaves with a deal on January 31. Addressing the EU Parliament’s constitutional affairs committee, he added: “I have to be very open to the colleagues here it’s not a question of voting yes to Brexit and voting no to no Brexit, that’s not the choice we have.   

“It’s the choice between a Brexit in an orderly way or avoiding a no deal or a hard Brexit most probably happening on February 1, that’s the choice we have.

Facts according to verhoftwat

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 12:18 PM

If no agreement hard brexit occurs 1st Feb 2020

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 20 - 03:05 PM

Backwoodsman I was referring to a post of early December when I quoted a figure of 1,218000.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 03:02 AM

It's all over now for remainiacs!

The EU commission's Ursula von der Leyen and Council's Charles Michel put their signature to Boris Johnson's Brexit deal at a sombre ceremony today in Brussels. A copy will now be sent to Downing Street to allow the Prime Minister to complete the process ahead of its ratification in the EU Parliament next week. Writing on Twitter, EU Commission President Mrs von der Leyen said: "Charles Michel and I have just signed the Agreement on the Withdrawal of the UK from the EU, opening the way for its ratification by the European Parliament."

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 20 - 05:16 AM

"We have been given the thumbs up for a new politics thread. The rules are no personal abuse and no trolling."