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Subject: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 23 Jan 20 - 04:59 PM This incredible guitat arrngement was entirely the work of nic jones, the guitar style he developed was quite different from martin carthy, and could not be said to be a copy of anyone elses style, the arrangement is orighal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFKwY_YgZ4 |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:02 PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFKwY_YgZ4 this was in my opinion a glorious guitar arrngement, sadly nic can no longer play but he did appear at sidmouth with his son which must have been fantastic for him thankyou nic for this wonderful music |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:09 PM Yes Sandman, I've always thought his guitar playing was especially effective on that track. He seems to have had an attraction to songs of labour and adversity......Farewell to the Gold is another favourite of mine and I've just been reading a couple of books of short stories by Henry Lawson, all about droving mining and swaging in early 1900s Australia and New Zealand. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: meself Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:25 PM I get that - I always like singing about hard work ... ! |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:29 PM That guitar playing is definitely its own thing - it's more or less three-part counterpoint, and much more rhythmically active than anything I've heard from Carthy. The only precedent I can think of is late Renaissance and Baroque lute playing - I've heard Jacob Heringman improvise stuff about that complicated. Bakfark and Kapsberger went in for similarly syncopated cross rhythms. I don't like the vocals very much though. Sounds like he's desperately holding back to avoid expressing any emotion. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jan 20 - 05:42 PM The very best thing you can say about his guitar playing is that it was absolutely appropriate in every one of his songs, complementing his singing perfectly. As for his voice, the first few albums, which lamentably we can't have, showed him finding his own style. By the time he recorded The Noah's Ark Trap and Penguin Eggs, he'd found his voice and was unique, not a copy of anyone! Dave Bulmer is now long gone. Is there any danger of his family relenting and letting us have all those amazing recordings of not just Nic but of many other great folkies...? Please?? Worth another try??? |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 20 - 08:20 PM Could we make a project out of freeing all those recordings that were held captive for so long by Dave Bulmer? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 20 - 10:33 PM OK, so I suppose I should keep my mouth shut, and admit that the bullies have beaten me into submission. But if I were to do that, I wouldn't be Joe Offer. My ex-wife called me "compulsively honest." She didn't mean it as a compliment, but I take pride in that nonetheless. The Nic Jones arrangement of this song is absolute perfection, and I love it and have listened to it over and over. BUT (and I suspect Nic Jones might agree with me on this) I don't give a rat's ass who "owns" a song, especially the various arrangements of a traditional song. To my mind (and despite the laws of commerce), once a poem or a book or a song is published or performed, it becomes part of our literary culture. Many, many people read or listen to these poems and stories and songs, and they make it part of themselves. Despite what the law and the business world may say, I think a work of art moves into the public domain the moment it is received by a person other than the author. Despite economic and legal restrictions, I think it's the most natural thing in the world for people to take works of art and make them their own and to pass them on to others while changing them in drastic or subtle ways - as both Nic Jones and Bob Dylan did with this song. When I hear a song I really like, I learn it and perform it for others - and I may learn a bit from various arrangements I've heard. I make a buck or two here and there for singing, but mostly I sing for the sheer love of it. I usually give attribution to living (and some dead) songwriters who authored a song, but not always. Can't say I've ever given credit to the "arranger" of a song, but sometimes I'll say I learned a song from a recording by so-and-so. But mostly, I don't care. I like certain songs, so I sing 'em - and I don't particularly care who has "ownership." Now, if Nic Jones can claim authorship of an arrangement of a song and win a lawsuit against Bob Dylan, more power to him - as long as he doesn't try to stop me from singing a song however I want to for the pleasure of it. So all this folderol about song ownership and performers "stealing" songs from other performers, doesn't mean much to me. I just like songs, so I sing 'em the best I can. I guess I must be a goddam communist or something, but I don't care. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Dave Hanson Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:36 AM Nic first played with the group ' The Halliard ' with Dave Moran and Nigel Patterson, Nic also played fiddle. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: r.padgett Date: 24 Jan 20 - 03:10 AM Interesting comments about the Celtic music/Dave Bulmer back catalogue ~I know that Dave did have many friends as well as artists who never had their songs and arrangements released on the vinyl of the time Dave I believe has a widow and Calum his son who are not seen as being well off ~ maybe some mileage in looking at what can, could or should be done in regard to future action ~ if still relevant? Sources of funding? etc Ray Canadeeio I have on CD btw |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 24 Jan 20 - 03:15 AM nic jones did not steal HIS guitar arrangement from anyone else. when people are incapable of creating beautiful music it is not surprising that they have an attitude that they do not care about ownership of arrangements, to steal guitar arrangements and make money from them is illegal. to make libellous comments is illegal. we are talking about arrangements and making money from the arrangements not the singing of songs. jo offer your intellectual inaccuracies bear no relation to the political philosophy caled communism, |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Howard Jones Date: 24 Jan 20 - 05:38 AM Joe, to me it's a question of honesty and integrity, which I believe you probably do care about. No one can prevent you from singing a song even if they wanted to, whether that's for your own pleasure, for public performance, or (in most circumstances) to record it. At best they can expect to be paid when you do so. However if you admire someone's creative input sufficiently to want to sing their song or imitate their arrangement (and I see nothing wrong in that) then it is, at the very least, simple good manners to acknowledge their contribution. To claim, or even to give the impression, that it is actually your own work is not only dishonest but disrespectful to the original writer or arranger, and ultimately to your audience. The more famous you are, the more this matters (or should). I don't want to get drawn into the extent to which Dylan's version of Canadee-i-o draws on Nic Jones's. What is indisputable is that Dylan's own officlal website claims this is "Written by Bob Dylan (arr)". Maybe that "(arr)" gets him off the hook from a legal point of view, but to most readers it gives the impression that the lyrics (if no more) are his own work, which is clearly not the case. That is quite simply dishonest and disrespectful, in my view. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 20 - 05:52 AM It's true that a song only has life when it's sung. The chap down the folk club who had a fair stab at Paul Brady's version of Arthur McBride (a real instance) could be seen as emulating his hero admiringly and we all knew what he was about (not making money, that's for sure). I'm certain that Paul would have smiled indulgently (it wasn't that good...) Ron Kavana came to our folk club and our MC asked if it was OK for him to sing Ron's song Reconciliation. Not only did he enthusiastically agree, he actually duetted the song with the MC (that was in 1993 and I still have a treasurable cassette of that evening...er...) That is not the same thing as copying an arrangement for your own commercial CD, as Dylan did, stepping way over the plagiarism line. I don't care if someone comes down the club and does a fair copy of someone else's song for his floor spot. The added dimension, though, Joe, is the commercial one. I do sort of believe in the concept of intellectual property... |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: gillymor Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:03 AM For me Jone's accompaniment is the real story here, it's the thing that makes his arrangement unique, Dylan's version of this follows the same basic structure and but his guitar accompaniment is about 1/10 as complex as Jones' and his vocal is not in the same ballpark. I do like Dylan's singing, up through "Blood on the Tracks" but not much after that. For another lovely version I'd recommend Eilis Kennedy's with a great guitar arrangement by William Coulter which is quite different from Nic's. Can't find it on YT. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: gillymor Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:15 AM You can hear Kennedy's version of Canadee-i-o here , it's the first sample. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Dave Hanson Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:32 AM Howard, the Bob Dylan website claims EVERTHING on it was written by Dylan, I'm fairly certain that this has nothing to do with the lad 'imself Dave H |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Karen Impola Date: 24 Jan 20 - 08:57 AM FWIW, here's what Wikipedia has to say about Dylan's album "Good As I Been To You", on which "Canadee-i-o" appears: Though Dylan is credited with all of the arrangements, several arrangements clearly belong to other artists, including the Texas songster Mance Lipscomb. A number of publications, including Folk Roots, criticized the album for making this error. Lipscomb's posthumous oral biography, I Say Me for a Parable, edited by Glen Alyn, claims that Dylan listened to Mance play backstage at Newport in the early 1960s and then later took the stage and sang Mance's songs as his own. and The inaccurate song credits created some controversy for Dylan. Nearly half of the songs were incorrectly credited, and in one case, Dylan faced legal action when Australian folksinger Mick Slocum sued Dylan's music publisher over the arrangement credit in "Jim Jones." Slocum recorded his arrangement with his band, The Original Bushwhackers, in 1975, and Dylan's publisher was forced to concede their error While saying "the original album notes incorrectly credit all song arrangements to Bob Dylan", Wikipedia credits the arrangements of "Frankie and Albert", "Canadee-i-o" and "Arthur McBride" to Mississippi John Hurt, Nic Jones, and Paul Brady, respectively. I don't know if the album was ever reissued with changes to the liner notes. I wasn't very familiar with "Canadee-i-o" at the time, but I remember when I first heard Dylan's version of "Arthur McBride", my impression was that it was, note for note and phrase for phrase, so similar to Paul Brady's that it seemed like . . . cheating, somehow. A ripoff, if you will. So, in response to Joe Offer, I would say that this is not just a case of "anyone can sing a song however they like." This is a very prominent artist "borrowing" the work of less prominent ones, and not crediting his sources. It's wrong. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Vic Smith Date: 24 Jan 20 - 10:14 AM Joe Offer - Could we make a project out of freeing all those recordings that were held captive for so long by Dave Bulmer? And could this be completed soon? I happen to to know that some of those involved in the suppressed but important albums on a variety of albums are now aging and have no professional pension to fall back on so income from royalties from early albums would be important. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 20 - 12:34 PM The original tapes, if they still exist, are also aging. If anyone has pristine vinyl copies of these albums (and many people other than Nic are involved), please keep them pristine. Someone somewhere would be able to make good transfers to CD, once permission had been obtained. A deal could be struck with the copyright owners to fairly share the proceeds... I'm in cloud cuckoo land, aren't I? I suppose there would be many that would not be commercially viable. So they could just be handed back to the artists to do with them what they will... |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 24 Jan 20 - 01:02 PM I happen to be one of those people, which makes this poppycock from someone who clearly doesnot thinks before he posts even more annoying |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:15 PM I can't find a copy of the Dylan performance to link to on YouTube, but I listened to it on Spotify. It's a typical Dylan performance, sloppy guitar and muddy vocals. Yes, the melody of the vocal track is more-or-less similar to the singing of Nic Jones, but the Nic Jones singing and guitar work are far superior. I don't know what went on legally in the matter - did Nic Jones sue Bob Dylan about this song? Did Jones win? Or vice-versa? Dave Hanson correctly says: Howard, the Bob Dylan website claims EVERTHING on it was written by Dylan, I'm fairly certain that this has nothing to do with the lad 'imself I might add that the Bob Dylan Website and the Bob Dylan songbooks are notoriously inaccurate. The lyrics that are in print, are quite different from what Dylan actually sings. Those songbooks and lyrics and copyright claims all come from business people, not from Dylan. Dylan just sings the songs in front of a microphone, and then collects a paycheck. All that business stuff is out of his control. If there's a lawsuit, the business people handle it. It's highly unlikely that Dylan has spent much time in court dealing with copyright claims. The Men in Suits handle all that. So, don't go heaping a lot of blame on Dylan. He just sings the songs, just like the rest of us do. The Men in Suits control all that business stuff. I did the copyright research for the 1200 songs in the Rise Again Songbook, which was published in 2015. For the songs written recently enough to be under copyright control, we got print licenses from the publishers of the songs - or from the songwriters themselves. Our publisher, Hal Leonard, already had licenses for about half the songs, so those were an easy matter of just double-checking the information. I had to track down ownership and obtain licenses for a lot of the "folky" songs, and that could be challenging. Some people, like Pete St. John and the Corries, wouldn't grant us licenses, so we couldn't include songs like "The Rare Old Times" and "Flower of Scotland." It took me weeks to track down information about the ownership of "Tzena Tzena Tzena". Despite Richie's wonderful work on Carter Family Sources, we had to pay for licenses on almost all Carter Family songs, because Peerless claimed a copyright on them and Peerless is litigious. I was bothered by what we had to do with traditional songs and songs in the public domain. We would name the author or note the song "traditional," but the copyright notice under those songs reads: Arr. © 2015 by Hal Leonard Corporation. Hal Leonard wanted a more strongly-worded copyright claim, but we were able to talk them into using this. If you look in songbooks and CDs, you'll see similar copyright claims on lots of traditional songs. It's what the Men in Suits do. If we had included "Canadee-I-O" in our book, we would have had to mark it, "Trad, Arr. © 2015 by Hal Leonard Corporation." Since our book includes only lyrics and chords, we would not have made reference to Nic Jones in the copyright notice (although I would have mentioned his recording in the notes). I wrote up the following caveat, and Hal Leonard allowed us to include it in the introduction to our book:
So, yeah, on every traditional song Dylan recorded, you'll see the claim "Trad, arr Dylan" or the like. The Men in Suits insist on that. But these are copyright claims. A copyright isn't ironclad until it's proved in court. Until that happens, copyrights are protected by the threat of lawsuits, and big publishers can file big lawsuits. Don't blame Dylan for the copyright claim on "Canadee-i-o." It's his Men in Suits who do that stuff, and it's more-or-less the industry standard. If you want to make a living making music, you have to go along with the rules set by the Men in Suits. My advice for musicians is to sing the songs and don't worry too much about the legalities. Let the Men in Suits handle that, because they won't let you do otherwise if you want to make a living in music. I have a fascinating book titled Bob Dylan: All the Songs, by Philippe Margotin and Jean-Michel Duesdon (Black Dog & Leventhal Publishers, New York, 2015). Here's what it says about "Canadee-i-o," which appears on Dylan's Good as I Been to You album (1992)
Traditional / Arrangement Bob Dylan / 4:23 Musician: Bob Dylan: vocals, gurtar / Recording Studio: Bob Dylan Garage Studio, Malibu, California. July—August 1992 / Producer: Debbie Gold / Sound Engineer: Micajah Ryan Genesis and Production Like many folk songs originating in England, “Canadee-I-O,” also known as “The Wearing of the Blue” and “Caledonia,” had a second life when the ballad arrived in Canada. It is an unusual love story. A young lady dresses up in sailor’s clothes to follow her lover, who has left to join a ship’s crew; “when the other sailors heard the news, /Well, they fell into a rage, /And with all the ship’s company” threaten to throw her overboard. The captain rescues her, falls in love, and ‘when they come down to Canada /. . She’s married this bold captain.’ The English folksinger Nic Jones recorded a version for his album Penguin Eggs (1980). Twelve years later, Dylan adopted the same style in his interpretation, although he plays by strumming the guitar, a style very different from Jones's. This ballad gives him the opportunity to vary his vocal intonation, which is both powerful and fragile. So, there's what one Dylan books says about the song. I think what this book says about the relationship between the Jones and Dylan arrangement is truthful. The Jones arrangement is far superior. The Dylan arrangement, is typical Dylan. I'll leave it to the courts to decide who owns what, and I'll just enjoy the Nic Jones version of the song and ignore the one by Dylan - although I'm sure in a backhanded way that Dylan did a lot of good for Nic Jones, by making people aware of the Nic Jones version of the song. -Joe- Dick Miles, this is what I mean by posting the facts instead of just repeating "you don't know anything" allegations over and over again. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:40 PM joe , you said nic jones borrowed the guitar arrangement, that is factually incorrect. i never mentioned dylan, stick to facts and stop making factually incorrect comments |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 20 - 02:59 PM I did not say that Jones "borrowed the guitar arrangement," Dick. That's the way you interpreted what I said, in a casual remark made in fun in the aptly-named Folk Snobbery thread. I used the word "which," referring to the song - and not to the arrangement, which I knew nothing about. I'm a singer and I deal in songs, not arrangements. You interpreted my word to refer to the arrangement. The wording was admittedly unclear, but this was just a casual remark and not a court case. Give it up. You have nothing to fight about, and you're making yourself look stupid. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Howard Jones Date: 24 Jan 20 - 03:03 PM I don't suppose "the lad 'imself" is slaving over a hot Wordpress keeping is website up to date. But it is his official site, put out there in his name, and the copyright claims are made in his name. Are you seriously suggesting that one of the greatest stars of 20th century music has no influence over his people? By the time Dylan's version of Canadee-i-o was released in 1992 Nic Jones had suffered his terrible accident and was unable to work, and I doubt he had either the inclination or resources to challenge it. I also doubt whether Topic Records would have been inclined to take on the mighty Sony Corporation. But then, Nic is not the only person on that album to have their contribution ignored. In any event, this is not about legal rights, important though those are. It is about having the basic courtesy to acknowledge your sources and not to claim credit for someone else's work. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Jack Campin Date: 24 Jan 20 - 03:06 PM I got a PM about this. I assume that any interesting content in it could equally well have been posted publicly. Deleted unread. Don't bother doing it again. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:26 PM Subject: RE: Folk Snobbery From: Joe Offer - PM Date: 08 Jan 20 - 03:28 PM Which, of course, Nic Jones stole from somebody else - but Nic Jones didn't make any money on it... nic jones did not sreal anything from anybody else, do you understand or are you an intellectual pygmy?
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM We know, Dick. Can we bloody move on from that? You know I love you dearly, but we are actually trying to discuss summat here... |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 20 - 08:15 PM Howard Jones, you're right that one would think that a performer's songbooks and Website would have definitive lyrics and correct attribution - but that's not the case. I had to fight that out when I was working on the Rise Again songbook, because my editor wanted to believe the lyrics from performer websites. In fact, he originally thought we could use a "bot" to harvest lyrics from the Internet, and just print what we harvested. I had to prove to him that the Internet and many performer websites are horribly inaccurate - even some of the lyrics performers would e-mail to us were illiterate and inaccurate. I've learned that many performer websites took lyrics from fan sites, and didn't edit or correct them in any way. When I did the songbook, I tried to find at least two printed sources and verify them with at least two recorded versions of every song. And even then, I made some mistakes that will embarrass me for the rest of my life. They're in print now, and it costs too damn much to correct them. Never trust lyrics from the Internet, even from the Mudcat Cafe - always verify them. Even sheet music can be wrong. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 25 Jan 20 - 01:13 AM when i first heard the arrangement it stopped me in my tracks.what a sad loss that he can no longer play. i booked nic jones regularly at folk clubs, i ran he was a charismatic performer with a commanding stage presence. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: r.padgett Date: 25 Jan 20 - 03:26 AM Quite so total respect to Nic Jones his singing and his guitar style accompaniments and folk club guest spots of the past Hope he continues to get better in all respects Ray |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 25 Jan 20 - 03:32 AM i believe the tuning was cgcgcd |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: GUEST,Fydle Player Date: 25 Jan 20 - 03:49 AM I play this on bouzouki, have changed a few chords and I hope sing it my own way. For a while I saw so many guitarists doing this it, for me became the 'Stairway to Heaven' of folk guitarists. Great song and arrangement to be enjoyed, not scrapped over. The reason he was so good is he carved his own style, I suggest, do likewise. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:10 AM What a lot of stupid arguments! |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Jack Campin Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:19 AM Do enough people play Jones's arrangements for him to get significant arranger credits? Probably not - but for something like this the compositional input is as significant as the playing, and while the recording has been bulmered, that highly original arrangement won't have been, and he should be getting paid for it. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:39 AM Bulmer didn't get hold of that one. It's on the Penguin Eggs CD, which you can buy. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Brian Peters Date: 25 Jan 20 - 08:21 AM When adapting traditional songs, there's often a fine dividing line between 'arrangement' and new work. I've reworked a lot of Child ballads and broadsides in my time, not only by collating different versions, but also by rewriting texts and inventing entirely new lines or even the odd stanza. I've also tweaked many a song melody. But all of that goes down as 'Trad., arr', unless I've written a new tune (which I've done in several cases particularly on the Peterloo broadsides), in which case it's 'Words trad., arr., music B Peters'. I've never come across a version of 'Canadee-i-o' that looks much like Nic's, but there are quite a few out there. FWIW I do know his source for 'Ten Thousand Miles', and there he follows the Appalachian original quite closely, though the lengthening of some notes gives the rhythm a different feel, and then of course there's the guitar part. On the other hand I'm pretty sure he wrote tunes to broadsides which were credited as 'Trad., arr.' regardless. Whether the tune to Canadee-i-o is an old one or his own work, it's credited on the record as 'Trad., arr.', so someone else learning the song from Nic's version would not be obliged to credit him. However I have heard of instances in which an artist doing a cover version of someone else's 'Trad., arr.' song has voluntarily chosen to credit that person's arrangement if they've based the cover very closely on it. In the Nic's case, bearing in mind his enforced retirement, that might have been the moral high ground. And of course it's a matter of courtesy to credit your source for a traditional song, both in liner notes and live performance, as several people who've learned ballads from me have been good enough to do. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 25 Jan 20 - 09:17 AM In the Nic's case, bearing in mind his enforced retirement, that might have been the moral high ground. And of course it's a matter of courtesy to credit your source for a traditional song, quote spot on as regards jack campin comment about his singing yes it is understated,but in my opinion it is much better than bob dylans , in my opinion dylan is a mediocre singer. jack campin did not read a personal message i sent to him, if he had, he would have read yes. it is understated,but in my opinion it is much better than bob dylans all a matter of opinion |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: GUEST,henryp Date: 25 Jan 20 - 12:42 PM Broadside Songs The Halliard Molly Music MMCD04 (Songbook with CD, UK, November 2005) From the group’s collection of their scribbled manuscripts and old copies of broadside sheets, Dave Moran has brought together 30 broadsides set to original tunes composed by himself and Nic Jones, together with one of Nigel Paterson’s original tunes and an instrumental variation by Paterson/Jones. There are words, music, chords, articles, a history, song notes and much more. Here you will find the true origins of the tunes to songs like Boys of Bedlam, Lancashire Lads, Calico Printer’s Clerk, Ladies Go A’Thieving (often referred to as Ladies Don’t Go A’Thieving) and Workhouse Boy, which have long been sung around the folk scene, plus many others. The Halliard: Broadside Songs (Molly Music MMCD04) 1. Calico Printer's Clerk (Roud 13210) (3.09) 2. Ladies Don't Go A-Thieving (Roud V28087) (2.43) 3. Tae the Weavers Gin ye Go (instrumental) (2.20) 4. Going for a Soldier, Jenny (Roud V1224) (2.21) 5. The Workhouse Boy (3.13) 6. A Thousand Miles Away (Roud 1778; G/D 6:1102) (3.30) 7. The Last Farewell of Frost, Jones & Williams (3.30) 8. The Diggins O! (3.27) 9. British Man of War (Roud 372) (4.25) 10. Boys of Bedlam (Roud V16366) (3.23) 11. The Victory (Roud 2278) (5.41) 12. Clever Tom Clinch (3.10) 13. Durham Militia (3.09) 14. Collier Lass (Roud V7863) (5.48) 15. Bold Nevison (Roud 1082) (2.48) 16. Jullien's Original Polka (4.07) 17. Lancashire Lads (Roud 588; G/D 1:89) (3.19) Tracks 1-2, 6-9, 12, 14, 16-17 tune Dave Moran Track 3 trad. Nigel Paterson, Nic Jones Track 4 tune and chorus Nic Jones Tracks 5, 11, 15 tune Nic Jones Tracks 10, 13 tune Nic Jones, Dave Moran Dave Moran writes; Nic [Jones] and I and mandolin/guitar player Nigel Paterson made up the Halliard. We were looking to develop some new music and we took the advice of song-writer Leslie Shepard. We decided to add tunes to Broadsides that we discovered, uncovered or collected – we checked out the Harkness Collection at Preston and the collections in Manchester etc. Nic and I wrote all the tunes together, usually sitting in the front of the Mini and singing and working out tunes as we drove – as the mandolin was the smallest instrument and Nigel was in the back, he always played the tunes. 'Jones and Moran' wrote a heap of songs like this including Lancashire Lads, Going for a Soldier Jenny, Miles Weatherhill, Calico Printer's Clerk etc. We wrote the tunes to fit the words and sometimes added or altered words, as in The Workhouse Boy. From the liner notes of Unearthed by Nic Jones; Possibly to the consternation of some, I often deliberately altered or re-wrote words and tunes of traditional songs, although I did try to keep it very much in sympathy with the original. Broadsides, however, offered a good source of ballads without such constraints and gave me the freedom to compose around the text without offence. Described on a broadsheet as A New Song — Bonaparte's Escape from Russia, I added a few extra words, wrote a tune and called it The Warlike Lads of Russia. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 28 Jan 20 - 03:42 AM what a fine guitar arrangement, to claim he stole it from someone else ,merely illusrates a low level of intellect |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 28 Jan 20 - 04:20 AM hre is some more good guitarhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KQ-BzpRHQA |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Nick Date: 28 Jan 20 - 04:25 AM There we go we are back to the four day loop. Move on. It’s boring. It’s like someone washing their hands incessantly or checking they’ve locked the front door. It’s borderline obsessive behaviour to continually return to the same spot. Sandman you do not have to keep having the same conversation every four days. There is a world out there. But for those who might wish to ape (bad) or develop (good!) in the style of Nic Jones, here’s a big fan of Nic Jones (and just to preempt the suggestion that people should create their own style I suggest reading the accompanying comments on the YouTube post that this is for TEACHING purposes) showing and explaining how he played. Canadee-I-o in the style of Nic Jones Now you can take it and adapt it and do something with it. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 20 - 04:28 AM Dog with a bone. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 28 Jan 20 - 04:43 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjmXVCaP7B0 nick i started this thread, 9ii knew nic jones personally i found joe offers comment extremely offensive , but here above is some thing more that might interest you |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Nick Date: 28 Jan 20 - 06:02 AM Oh dear. You're still in the same place. I have funny feeling that Nic Jones would be less offended and would understand what was meant - rather than what YOU believe was meant regardless of the many times this thing has gone round and round. Perhaps as you know him you could ask him? There's various times on the internet where people have long conversations without the simple thing of asking the person (if they happen to be alive, of course). Enough of that I have no interest in engaging in a recurring, pointless discussion which goes nowhere. Yes very interesting link - I enjoyed the discussion. Tunings are there to facilitate things and are tools is what I take from it. I have friends who desperately want to know 'what tuning is it in' so that they can do it the same. Or in the words of one 'do it right'. For me I can't see the point. What someone else has done is a great starting point to try and develop ones own style. But everyone copies as a starting point. Very few things come out of absolutely nowhere. Probably the most extreme thing I have seen done with a guitar is some of the things Tommy Emmanuel does to try and convey the sound of the Australian outback (if I remember correctly). He hits it, scratches it, rubs it with sandpaper, uses repeats and effects. All sorts. But for a purpose. It is a tool. Very very few people get to a stage of having their own style that is recognisable instantly. Nic Jones percussive slap is one. Martin Carthy has a distinctive style. Tommy Emmanuel does. Eric Roche. James Taylor. Richie Havens. John Martyn. Richard Thompson. Dougie Maclean. Most of us don't and play the best we can, integrating bits that we learn and pick up. Sometimes copying as close as possible. Sometimes playing things very differently to the original source. So I play Silver Dagger from Steve Tilson's arrangement. I don't play it exactly the same but it is close enough to see where it is from. I play "I Live not where I love" influenced by Simon Nicol. I play Vincent Black Lightning with a lot of nods to Richard Thompson. Both Sides Now I used to try and play like one of Joni's versions; got sick of retuning to open D and reworked the things I liked back into standard tuning to stop faffing about when playing live. I play Moon River which I worked by ear after hearing someone play it so I presume that's my arrangement. The chord voicings are different to most I have looked at since. I have fun changing Dougie Macleans open C songs into standard tuning and making them sound 'the same to the original(ish)'. I occasionally play in drop D, double drop D, open C, C modal, open G, open E, DADGAD, CGDGAD, EADGCE, once even EEEEBE, and occasionally have fun with a couple of spider capos which open up fun possibilities (open Em13 tuning). But mostly I play in standard because you can do a lot with it. All these things are tools. To paraphrase what I understood Martin Carthy to say in that video - you go and find the thing you need for the thing you want to do I am neither a great guitarist nor an innovator. I am competent and can play the things I can play. I get inspired by people who can play things I can't and try and do those things. But I understand the mechanics of stuff and play well enough to play out live with the current band I play with and get asked back. |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 28 Jan 20 - 09:21 AM nick the most important thing is to be yourself and enjoy perfoming, when i play and sing with concertina, i do not sound like anyone else, i have been performing for over 50 years, and i am grateful for good health.Nic had his career finished early, played the same club [glossop] the week after him,i travel to gigs in the uk by train.nic was a sad loss to the uk folk revival |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 20 - 09:59 AM Totally bizarre than anyone even vaguely interested in music can think that the *guitar arrangement* in Dylan's recording of this song has anything to do with the *guitar arrangement* of Nic Jones's recording (as has been suggested in this thread). Nic Jones's guitar style on Penguin Eggs is so unlike anything else I have ever heard on recording or ever in real life. It so often defies description ... so much written about it on online guitar forums is nonsense or wrong. The one person who I have seen say anything enlightening on the matter and who does a great demo and explanation, fascinating to watch, very difficult to imitate, is the guy whose youtube video was already linked upthread. Great job. Well I looked up the Dylan album. And of course the guitar playing is nothing like Nic Jones's playing. Dylan is a wonderful guitar player and a wonderful singer, but it is hardly realistic that Dylan would go to the extent of learning Nic Jones's unique style of playing the guitar so that he could rip him off for one song. Thanks anyway from me to the contributors to this thread for this tip off about what looks like a great Dylan album. Not one that Dylan fanatics talk about, maybe they are less into his more mainstream folk work .... |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Nick Date: 28 Jan 20 - 11:19 AM I do enjoy it. The first time I ever played music to an audience was in the late 1960's and should have done more of it. But work and life and children got in the way. I enjoy doing it now though. The only statement I might query is "i do not sound like anyone else" because you do sound similar to others who play in a similar style. Not a criticism or attempt to start an argument, just to my ears you sing and play in a not unfamiliar style judging by examples on Youtube etc and comparing it with the people I have heard play over the years. You do it well though you are probably folkier than most of what I do. But I have many times listened and sang along with Adieu Sweet Nancy and similar in pubs and gatherings Thanks for the links and discussion |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: The Sandman Date: 28 Jan 20 - 01:03 PM nick i meant i do not sound like copy of concertina players such as lou killen or steve turner or alf edwards |
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Subject: RE: nic jones canadeeio From: Nick Date: 28 Jan 20 - 03:17 PM Understood and thank you for clarifying. As someone who knows little about the accordion/concertina/squeeze box world, style and individuality is probably much more apparent to someone who knows rather than not. I can spot good vs bad I think - that's a mixture of technical proficiency and flow and rhythm and feel but nuances of style I wouldn't know. You might well know who is playing by their style whereas I would just hear an instrument played to a standard. A little like the best acoustic guitar player I ever played with I knew about 15 seconds after I first met him when he strummed three chords that he was really good. I can't tell you how I knew but I did. It was more the singing with an accordion/melodeon/concertina (you see don't know the difference!) which I guess I have heard quite a number of people do when I have been to Whitby folk week and things around Hull etc |
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