BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 06:55 AM

I wonder what Lankum and some of the others think of being described as musicians from 'The British Isles'?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 06:27 AM

"The Irish sound?" Aargh!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 06:03 AM

If you are still on the folk map, here is Episode Four;

In this final episode Seth takes us to Ireland. He hears from Dublin band Lankum, singer Brian Kennedy, Mike Mathieson of Mad Dog Mcrea, Northern Irish folk singer Cara Dillon, Moya Brennan of Clannad, musician Odhran Mullen, folk singer Daoiri Farrell, harpist Lauren O’Neill, and winners of the 2019 BBC Radio 2 Lifetime Achievement award Dervish. They discuss their favourite Irish folk songs and the musical elements that comprise the Irish sound.

Something for everybody? Probably not.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 05:50 AM

Was he a secret Welshman Dick?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 05:48 AM

i would cite McGonagle as the main influence of style of the writing of hattie carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 05:45 AM

Gillian Reynolds is someone I have a lot of time for. But maybe she has limited knowledge of folk music and has accepted the information of our respected broadcaster as reliable.
This thread has given several instances of misleading and sheer ignorance of the subject and if the power of the BBC results in this being accepted as the truth, we need to be concerned.

If the Tories find out, it could be another stick to bash the BBC!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:58 AM

There is a non-radio show Folk Map. I've used it several times but it must be a pain to keep up to date. Thanks to the builder.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:26 AM

Gillian Reynolds is a wonderful lady, and a real radio aficionado(a?).
Sadly her fulsome praise for any programme, must be set against the abysmal standards to which UK radio, and in particularly Radio 4, have sunk.
I have been listening to Radio under it's various changing names for over 60 years, and I cannot remember ever hearing such crap as now masquerades as comedy programming, among other things. It's no wonder that a programme which speaks to the old values of Radio 4, has attracted her attention, and praise.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:13 AM

Gillian Reynolds is the distinguished radio critic for the Sunday Times. She has chosen Folk Map as the Pick of the Day for the last two Saturdays, calling it a landmark series and a prime example of public service radio. And this week she has written a glowing review; "Here's a programme made from the heart, about the power of music to lift people of any age, any country, any social rank, above drudge and grudge....No commercial station will ever offer radio like this." I don't know if she is a late convert to folk music - her varied selection for Desert Island Discs didn't include any. But she is valuable ally.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM

What about Kosher Bailey as the trigger for The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll? :)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 09:58 AM

OMG I was only joking when I mentioned that this week we could expect to be told that “Lord Franklin” was the influence for Bob Dylan and “Bob Dylan’s Dream” but catching up with the programme a few minutes ago (I was late home yesterday following Forest’s demolition job on Leeds Utd.) and there it was!!
I hardly dare suggest that when we come to cover Ireland that “One Morning in May” and “Homes of Donegal” will be cited as the trigger for “With God on Our Side” and “I Pity the Poor Immigrant” respectively. Sorry I don’t know too many folk songs from Wales to try a punt for next week.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 05:02 AM

I think Jim Bainbridge is right. You have to do it. be engaged.

otherwise you will not be the captain of your own ship. other people always disappoint you, frustrate, annoy you.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 03:24 AM

A folkie cat like Bagpuss...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 03:07 AM

PFR YOU NEED TO GET A GOOD CAT VERY GOOD FOR CLMSY MICE

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 08:09 PM

I only caught up this morning with the first programme about folk music in Scotland and it was great to hear Iona Fyfe.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 12:27 PM

oops.. 2nd [empty] post was a clumsy mouse movement...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 12:24 PM

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 12:23 PM

I forget so much these days..

Does the Beeb charter actually stipulate a minimum compulsory BRIT FOLK coverage,
that they pay lip service to with occasional quickly made cheap programs...???

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM

I'm sorry Jack but that comment is as far from the truth as you could get.

I listen to Radio 3 every day (along with other radio particularly R6 and R4). What I can't listen to I catch up with on BBC Sounds. There is a huge amount of superb music from a range of genres - though I was very disappointed that they cut Music Planet from two hours to one - as well as some very interesting spoken word programmes about diverse issues. Composer of the Week that you refer to is on 5 hours every week and only very occasionally features Shostakovich!

I agree with you though that Radio 3 would be a good place for a folk programme - though I happen to enjoy the R2 programme most weeks and was glad to see the Seth Lakeman programme being aired imperfect though it is. Some people wish there were more earlier singers and I wish there had been more of the cutting edge musicians who are performing and writing music now featured so lets face it whatever they did in one hour would leave some of us feeling bereft. They could have taken up a whole programme featuring the work of the late, great Martyn Bennett alone!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 11:57 AM

Radio 3 would have been a natural home for a well researched folk programme - and Late Junction did a lot of that as part of its very wide-ranging coverage. So the Beeb's management moved it to a unreasonably late slot and then axed it.

I haven't listened to Radio 3 for years (it was the only channel I bothered with apart from the folk stuff on Radio Scotland). It turned into an endlessly repetitive soapbox for MI5 with Donald Macleod spouting the official Cold War line on Shostakovich at every conceivable pretext.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM

Why do you all keep listening to this ill-informed rubbish on radio (or TV) in the hopes of improvement?- I gave up years ago.

It's all talking endlessly about & analysing the music rather than just doing it- I could (but won't) name a hundred singers the BBC have never heard of who could do a really entertaining series of concerts with a song/tune or two each- seems obvious to me- don't want to upset professional folkies, but it'd be cheap too- the Tories would like that!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 10:41 AM

Dick - This time I must try to make an effort to listen...
I was up all night fixing two laptops,
That would have been a good time to put headphones on and tune into iplayer..
I could even have done it directly after playing with the trolling GUEST in this thread..
But as usual I got distracted and forgot...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 10:33 AM

i am trying to be positive, it could have been better, but it was wort listening to imo

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 09:56 AM

"they replied well it is saturday evening mainstream entertainment.I am not sure radio 2 on a sat night is that mainstream?"

Dick - your friend has a healthier perspective than a lot of folkies...

By UK radio standards, Radio 2 is about the most mainstream station still on air..

Considering radio overall is a slow death media..

There was a recent [BBC] news report about how BBC radio is struggling to attract new younger listeners,
whilst retaining any the Beeb already had..

Too much competition from mobile phone social media..

It's a long time since a mass audience of my generation of 1970s teenagers
tuned in enthusiastically every night to John Peel..
[but then, TV shut down around 10 or 11...???}
or the weekend live gig broadcasts,
cassette tape recorders at the ready..
Or cared about anything produced by Radio 1.

WE are now the main target demographic for Radio 2,
if we can ever be arsed listening to any of it's predominantly MOR shows...

I'd guess Radio 3 or 4 would be a more appropriate home
for the kind of serious well researched Folk programs over critical disgruntled mudcatters dream of...???

But as I'm a bloke who still occasionally buys Seth Lakeman CDs,
I'd give him fair benefit of the doubt
if I remember to listen to the shows he is now presenting.
Is he writing the scripts, or just reading what he's handed down...??

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 08:33 AM

Why am I not surprised?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 05:55 AM

I listened, nothing memorable and none of the above mentioned I think.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 04:44 AM

Didn't listen. Did they have Matt McGinn, The Stewarts of Blair, Jimmy Reid, Jimmy McBeath, Jimmy Hutchinson, Joe Aitken or Alex Campbell?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 02:44 AM

i discussed the programme with a friend who is not on mudcat when i mentioned the tenuous dylan connection, they replied well it is saturday evening mainstream entertainment.I am not sure radio 2 on a sat night is that mainstream?
anyway i will listen to the next episode despite its flaws it must be good news to have a folk programme that did play a liitle of the roots of scottish music

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 09:46 PM

"bolshie"..

that's what happens when you correct a misspelling
but bugger up another part of the word without realising...

..and I'd only just earlier discovered a hidden mouse click spellcheck function in Chrome...

[of course.. it's American English...]

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 08:37 PM

Joe - it's ok.. I'm too thick skinned and bolsie to take any mudcat nonsense personally..

Trolling anonymous GUESTS are fair game for a laugh..
.. and trolling anonymous GUESTS is fair game for a laugh..

Some might be folks we've interacted with when they previously used consistent mudcat ID..
but for some reason now need to hide..

Others may be complete random newcomer strangers..

Some may have evaded their carers to get on the internet long enough
before prescription meds calm them...

Who knows...

Folkies can be the oddest folk...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 08:16 PM

I'd say don't let them wind you up pfr - but it's too late

They're not worth it!

I enjoyed the programme but thought the Dylan connection was somewhat irrelevant and over laboured - where were the amazing Scottish folk rock bands such as Runrig, Skippinish, Skerryvore - or indeed the electronica of Martyn Bennett or Niteworks - surely more relevant to Scottish music today than the tenuous links between Rabbie and Dylan?
Having said all that I'm looking forward to the next one - though I still find it hard to forgive the omission of Runrig - like talking about English folk without Fairport or Steeleye Span

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 07:48 PM

GUEST - right then.. tell us something about this life you have,
that we may be impressed and envious,
and acknowledge your superiority...

Am I likely to own any of your CDs or DVDs,
are you a prominent cultural influencer,
do you have lucrative music industry endorsement deals,
can you fleece fans for your autographed photos,
are videos of you posted by devoted followers all over Youtube...
etc, etc,...?????

Would I be shocked and delighted if I knew who you really are
behind the mask of anonymous GUEST...???

What a disappointment it would be if you are just a grumpy worthless nobody with a superiority complex...

Being a 'folkie' provides a sense of identity and belonging to an exclusive elitist social group,
that too many chronically dull lifeless folks need to so desperately cling to..

As much as I have grown up enjoying and learning from good British folk music,
its the worst smuggest, dreariest, reactionary, of British folkies who put me off ever wanting to go to folk clubs
and spend too much time in their company..

That is my biggest complaint about the UK folk scene,
but not something I care that much about in the greater scheme of existence..

It can be hilarious when duff BBC folk shows annoy them so much...!!!

So GUEST, if you have any substance and value,
shut me down decisively by posting links to music YOU have created
that is better than anything niche tiny minority BBC folk programming covers,
or even I am capable of creating myself...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 06:52 PM

cheer up...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 05:25 PM

Sad.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 02:22 PM

""We" ? Speak for yourself. Some of us have a life."

GUEST - what.. like zombies sort of have 'life'...

"Plague of the folkie Living Dead" A new Web series streaming for 2020..

Soe old folkie fools might think they are so superior,
that they can smugly disparage 21st century modes of cultural communication - such as Youtube..

But rest assured, real healthy positively alive folk don't care...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 02:18 PM

I see Seth Lakeman sings 'Dear Isle of England". I think he's going to be a wee bit confused geographically....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 01:51 PM

"We" ? Speak for yourself. Some of us have a life.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 12:40 PM

The problem for me is I read these threads for a mixture of enlightenment and amusement,
then forget to listen to, or watch, the mainstream media shows being moaned about...

But then, we live in a youtube world now...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 05:05 AM

it always used to be guaranteed to get money if busking. anyway i will listen to the next episode, perhaps martin carthy would have beem a better presenter

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 04:28 AM

The Yetties used to play that one. i always enjoyed it.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 03:43 AM

In Scotland, instrumental dance tunes and folk songs have always been seen as two parts of the same genre. Folk clubs and festivals host both, and the dance tune repertoire has always used song tunes.

They're different takes on the same material. Around here you could get a tune done an week as a trad song, a celidh band number, a pipe band tune, a brass band medley or used to annoy people by a Rangers flute band. And the same people could be doing that same tune in completely different ways. Nobody but a middlebrow radio presenter would think folk music is only done by singers with guitars.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 03:35 AM

jimmy shand was dance music that is what jigs reels etc are ,be they scottish or irish it is often referred to as tradtional instrumental music and most people call it folk music , he also popularised the music including his only top 20 hit in the UK Singles Chart – "The Bluebell Polka" (1955 .Since the 1950s the crowd at Dunfermline Athletic F.C. have left the ground after the game to the sound of Shand's "The Bluebell Polka"

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 02:58 AM

Methinks some posters should just preface with "what is Folk? this is what I call Folk" rather than nitpick on the minutia of what Folk surrounds them and will, in all inevitably, be considered & be discussed as authentic Folk when we are all vituperating in the great Mudcat in the sky.

Jimmy Shand is not here to expand on his take on Scottish Folk. His was dance music n'cest pas? I would have included dance in a programme, but on radio? Imagine the carping thereafter! The programme has to speak to a broad spectrum including, heaven forefend, armchair pundits. Still it has provided fodder for the angry mob.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 02:05 AM

well it depends on the size of the ego eh, al, not everything is black and white there are shades of grey, however it does not alter the fact that revival performers are not necessarily the best people to discuss the roots of the music, there are exceptions like Carthy, folk scholars may be better qualified.
Seth lakeman and his producer have done a job that has flaws but could have been worse but some of the statements on the programme expose a lack of knowledge of the roots of the music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 12:42 AM

Henry's Cat was worried about his weight, so stood on the I-speak-your-weight machine. "One at a time, please," said the machine-with-an-ego.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 07:45 PM

Of course they've got an ego. Everyone should have, the definition of schizophrenia is someone whose ego periodically shatters and disappears.

Ego is just sense of self.
How can you have anything to express about your life if you have no sense of self. no sense of who you are.

Even if you sing exclusively traditional songs - surely they should be about your emotions. Not just a recital of words.

Its the difference between a performer and a speak your weight machine, or the lady in the satnav.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 04:31 PM

yes my thoughts too Dave
however the producer probably does not know that"The Croppy Boy" is set to an old Irish air called "Cailin Og a Stor," which is at least 500 years old. This air also provides the music for the folksong "Lady Franklin's Lament" (also known as "Lord Franklin" or "Sailor's Dream"), upon which Bob Dylan based his song "Bob Dylan's Dream."
which is why i remarked earlier that professional revival singers are not necessartly the best people to discuss the roots of the music, a lot of them are occupied entirely with their own egos and perfomance

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 12:13 PM

The Bob Dylan passage was totally spurious.
50+ years ago it was obvious that he had used the structure of “Lord Randal” for “Hard Rain’s A- Gonna Fall” however I would be very interested to learn the source of the declaration that “Banks of Sicily” was the inspiration for “Times They Are A ‘Changing”? Having read a fair number of books, of varying degrees of credibility, re the career of Bob Dylan over those 50+ years this is the first time I have been made aware of that item.
Can we expect a similar section next week citing “Lord Franklyn” or “Nottamun Town” as further sources for his songs?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:36 AM

oh.. so it's not the really good Caledonia I was thinking of...

"Walk with my baby
She got great big feet
She long, lean and lanky
An had nothin' to eat
She's my baby
I love her, just the same
Yeah an I'm crazy 'bout this woman cause
Caldonia..., is her name

Caldonia!
Caldonia!
Don't take your big head so hard?"

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 05:03 AM

very popular in Ireland, this song!- mayve via Dolores Keane having often sung it