BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 07:52 AM

What's arbitrary about "Ireland" or "Madagascar"?

Well, exactly - there is nothing to prevent the one from being called the other.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (irish)
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM

The root of all this is English attitudes to its neighbours. England is going to need all the friends it can get when all the lies & deceit in this ridiculous Brexit takes are exposed, so why upset them any further?

To return to the thread, the programme is crap

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:39 AM

"All toponyms are arbitrary" What's arbitrary about "Ireland" or "Madagascar"?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:30 AM

HenryP:

"But The British Isles isn't a territorial term. It's just a toponym with no political significance whatsoever."

All toponyms are arbitrary and therefore of political significance; it's naive to believe otherwise.

To demonstrate: why don't we refer to the archipelago as 'The Irish Isles' for a change - is there political significance then?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 06:15 AM

The Republic of Ireland is growing into a confident, modern, liberal state.
It is ahead of its neighbour in the north, and is leading it by example.

But, as this sensitivity over a name shows, this new, liberal, confidence isn't shared by everyone.

Next week; Canada declares it is not part of America.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 05:43 AM

Thread creep personified.
Time to close this thread, it's turning into a bun fight.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 05:24 AM

Ireland is an island and a nation.
The fact that six counties are under foreign control is irrelevant.

There is no such place as the 'British Isles' and even as a geographical term it is not acceptable in Ireland, so should be discontinued.

The old name for Scotland was North Britain -N.B was once added to postal addresses in Scotland. This was accepted as being offensive to the Scots & is never used nowadays. However it's factually correct unlike the 'British Isles'

( factcheck- they are not all British!).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 04:30 AM

Kenny, Are you speaking for the whole island of Ireland or just the country called the Republic of Ireland?

I can receive the RTE services in the UK, but I don't complain about their terminology. I'm just happy to enjoy the music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 12 Feb 20 - 04:08 AM

"The Group of islands are geographically known as The British Isles and the term has no political significance.
Where is this incorrect?"
Ireland.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 05:28 PM

Just caught up with, and enjoyed some of, Episode 2 - with the unaccompanied singing of the presenter's dad, Geoff Lakeman, the highlight; but far too much heavily Americanised accompaniment elsewhere, sadly.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM

But The British Isles isn't a territorial term.

It's just a toponym with no political significance whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 04:11 PM

'The Group of islands are geographically known as The British Isles and the term has no political significance.
Where is this incorrect?'

Surely all territorial terms have some political significance? But anyway - the music, the music!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 04:11 PM

His huff arrived, and he went off in it ;)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 04:00 PM

Guest. The union of Scotland and England in 1707 created a state called Great Britain.
The United Kingdom came into being in 1801 when Ireland joined with Great Britain hence " The United Kindom of Great Britain and Ireland". When Ireland became Independent, the U.K. held on to six counties, and the title changed to The Uk of GB plus NI.
The Group of islands are geographically known as The British Isles and the term has no political significance.
Where is this incorrect?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:45 PM

Dear Patriot,

Please don't take offence where none is intended. But you are mistaken about Britain; there is no island of that name.

Wikipedia; Ireland is an island in the North Atlantic. It is separated from Great Britain to its east by the North Channel, the Irish Sea, and St George's Channel. Ireland is the second-largest island of the British Isles.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain was the result of two Acts of Parliament: the Union with Scotland Act 1706 passed by the Parliament of England, and the Union with England Act passed in 1707 by the Parliament of Scotland. So Northern Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom.

When the BBC refers to the British Isles, it is simply referring to a particular group of islands. There is no suggestion at all they are all under the control of the Government in Westminster.

The BBC, I'm sure, does not mean to cause any offence to the people of the Republic of Ireland. Its publicity is addressed to the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who pay for the TV licences that support the BBC. And amongst them, there is no confusion.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 01:51 PM

At least when sea levels rise
and Glastonbury and surrounding hills
become islands again..
They'll know where they stand...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 01:43 PM

except Ireland and the little ones around that.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 01:41 PM

A UK passport says "United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which would make Great Britain the biggest island in the archipeligo plus all the others except Ireland and the Isle of Man.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 12:45 PM

I agree with patriot- it's all a bit pedantic but if you start drawing lines where they do not exist, you need to be sure of your ground- back to the thread

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (Irish)
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM

Wikipedia is as good as the information it receives and it is WRONG. There is one island called Britain and there are a lot of surrounding islands which, with Britain, make up GREAT BRITAIN.

BBC is also wrong if the 'British Isles' are considered as its - try saying to the Irish Revenue that you have a UK TV licence- you'll get a hefty fine- the BBC can cover musical events in Ireland but the BBC cannot raise a TV licence in the Republic- the Irish Revenue are pretty keen on doing it themselves.
Wikipedia is correct when it says it's an unacceptable term in Ireland so why upset your neighbours any more than you need to- or maybe Brexit has stopped you worrying about that any more?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Allan Conn
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 12:30 PM

Again I can see why an Irish person might object to the term and mistakenly view it as it was the British Isles because they belonged to Britain but it wasn't! The term is simply the geographic name for the island group whatever the political situation. Originally it was the Britannic or Pretanike Islands (spelling) going all the way back to pre-Roman invasion times. So British Isles was simply the modern version of that. At that time the larger island itself was called Albion. The name Britain only became more specifically associated with the larger island because the Roman province of Britannia covered a large chunk of the larger island. I mean I support Scottish independence but I don't think should that happen we'd then want the geographic term for larger island to be changed just because the of the political situation.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 10:55 AM

Patriot (Irish)

Wikipedia; Great Britain is an island in the North Atlantic Ocean off the northwest coast of continental Europe. With an area of 209,331 km 2 (80,823 sq mi), it is the largest of the British Isles.

Wikipedia; Owing to political and national associations with the word British, the Government of Ireland does not use the term British Isles. Nonetheless, British Isles is still the most widely accepted term for the archipelago.

Wikipedia; In general, the use of the term British Isles to refer to the archipelago is common and uncontroversial within Great Britain.

You can hardly blame the BBC for using the term to describe its output aimed at its licence payers.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,patriot (Irish)
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 06:49 AM

BRITAIN =   the ISLAND of BRITAIN, not any of the islands around it, ie this excludes certainly the IOM, but also the Isle of Wight, Lindisfarne and all the rest. These are covered by the term GREAT BRITAIN.

Northern Ireland is included in the term GB & NI or UK.

There has been no proper use of the term BRITISH ISLES since Irish Independence, 99 years ago- before that that ALL the archipelago belonged to the London government, ie it was British.
The adjective British has been retained in independent countries, like in British Columbia, but that's their choice and I don't the Irish would go for that?

Any use of the BI term, even geographically, is misleading and incorrect and it should not be used.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 05:23 AM

I have a few criticisms, but overall , i think it was good to have the programme

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM

I wonder if Seth Lakeman will find any musical record of the enormous social changes that have taken place in the Republic of Ireland. Look at the lifetime of Edna O'Brien.

She said, "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred." Her first book, The Country Girls, published in 1960, was added to the long list of books banned in Ireland under the Censorship of Publications Act, 1929. By 2012, Mary Robinson, the President of Ireland, recognised her as "one of the great creative writers of her generation".

Although she married and moved to London in 1954, her main subject remains Ireland. Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland has grown into a modern, liberal state.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 05:42 PM

Do you lot ever think you're being a bit sad? It's a series about folk music for God's sake not a political or geographical statement :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM

The Isle of Man isn't a part of Britain though. It isn't even a part of the UK. It is like the Channel Islands a Crown Dependency.

I understand that for historical reasons many Irish people don't like the term British Isles because it seems to associate them with Britain and almost sounds like the islands belong to Britain. It is though in truth purely a geographic term and in truth it comes from a term which predates even when the term Britain became more specifically associated with the larger island.

It is kind of spitting in the wind as the term is so old and ingrained. Though the UK gvt did take some note of the terms when in the 70s it laid down officially what the area associated with the UK would be called. That is the UK itself plus the Crown Dependencies are officially known as the British Islands which is different from British Isles which is a geographic term for the whole island group. Though I think hardly anyone actually uses the term British Islands. People tend to not think much about the Crown Dependencies so just ue the terms Britain or UK for it.

You can't of course legislate for how individuals view themselves anyway. Plus their self definition changes. I've always viewed myself as Scottish though I have no issue with British as a secondary thing - but more in a geographic sense. If we were independent I'd still view myself as British in a geographic, cultural sense - like Swedes etc are Scandinavian. My wife though no longer views her self as English - which she used to do. She now only identifies as British. She is very pro-union and this change has only happened in the last few years. We are all different. I think by viewing herself as only British she is pushing aside the idea that Scots and English are somehow different.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 04:00 PM

Tune in, and I'm sure that Seth will make everything clear.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:38 PM

Could someone explain why a football match between England and Scotland is called Anglo/Scottish and a political agreement between the UK and Ireland is called Anglo/Irish What does Anglo mean in these examples?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:36 PM

"Man is, like it or not, part of Britain. It's not part of the landmass known as 'Great Britain' but it is part of Britain."

I do like Man, but how do the citizens of Man view your concept of Britain? It sounds rather controversial to me.

And if Man is not part of Great Britain, then it presumably has a place in Little Britain.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:30 PM

..and what about the Northern Ireland / Scottish Bridge project
on the news today...????

let's tether them before they drift away...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:16 PM

No it doesn't, Jack. Man is, like it or not, part of Britain. It's not part of the landmass known as 'Great Britain' but it is part of Britain.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 03:06 PM

None of my many friends from the Republic of Ireland would ever use the term 'British Isles', let alone regarding their own nation as belonging within it.

So do your friends have any preferred term with the same reference? ("Britain and Ireland" omits Man, which is part of the British Isles).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 02:38 PM

From: GUEST,RA Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:34 PM
(ps - have a look at 'British Isles naming dispute' on Wikipedia).

Wikipedia; In general, the use of the term British Isles to refer to the archipelago is common and uncontroversial within Great Britain.

Is it unreasonable for the BBC to aim its output at its licence payers? Or should they be more aware of the sensitivity of our neighbours?

Nevertheless, I hope that listeners on both sides of the border in Ireland will be able to get some pleasure from the Folk Map of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 02:31 PM

If the French really did invent cider.. they're alright by me...!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 02:28 PM

I like the French ;)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:50 PM

btw.. yes I know.. SIX nations..

I completely forgot France..
So, I just asked her, and she almosts detests losing to France as much as England..

But she has no rational reason, just a gut instinct she doesn't like the French rugby team...
She says her Irish mate at work feels exactly the same...

Funny thing instinctive dislike of other nations and cultures,
there's a lot of that in the British folk scene...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:34 PM

(ps - have a look at 'British Isles naming dispute' on Wikipedia).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:32 PM

'The British Isles is a geographical term and includes the Republic.'

Jim MacLean - with all due respect, pretty much all geographical terms are political, as they're applied to geographical features by political creatures (human beings). No toponymy is politically neutral and, in cases like this, it's obviously territorial. None of my many friends from the Republic of Ireland would ever use the term 'British Isles', let alone regarding their own nation as belonging within it.

I would love to hear from some Mudcat people in the Republic of Ireland about this.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:18 PM

"I don't understand passionate nationalist fervour,
in sport, folk music, or any manifestation..."

Hear! Hear! PFR. But there's a lot of it about.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:17 PM

n this final episode Seth takes us to Ireland. He hears from Dublin band Lankum, singer Brian Kennedy, Mike Mathieson of Mad Dog Mcrea, Northern Irish folk singer Cara Dillon, Moya Brennan of Clannad, musician Odhran Mullen, folk singer Daoiri Farrell, harpist Lauren O’Neill, and winners of the 2019 BBC Radio 2 Lifetime Achievement award Dervish. They discuss their favourite Irish folk songs and the musical elements that comprise the Irish sound.'

That'll be the Cara Dillon who's Seth Lakeman's sister-in-law, I presume.

I'm with Steve. 'Irish sound' - yuck.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 12:58 PM

henryp - When Wales do lose, she actually doesn't get too upset being beaten by the Irish, or Scotland...
She also has a soft spot for the Italian underdogs..
It's the common bond of not being English...

But I honestly can't resist taking the piss
when she get's so emotional screeching at the TV during a match...

I don't understand passionate nationalist fervour,
in sport, folk music, or any manifestation...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 12:41 PM

Ah! The six nations! And which nation does she think that the Irish team represents?

But seriously, we all realise that in all other respects your wife must be exceptionally tolerant.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 12:02 PM

henryp - I learned it's best not to sarcastically provoke her worst nationalist urges in such a way..
especially during the six nations rugby tournament...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:50 AM

PFR: How would she respond if they suggested that Wales was a part of Great Britain?

Or the British Isles, the group of islands in which Great Britain and Ireland are the two largest?

I confess that I do take in RTE from time to time. But I try not to inhale. That, I hope, will make it harmless.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM

Guess how my mrs would respond
if anyone, say for example an American, was clueless enough to insist to her
that Wales is in England...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 10:57 AM

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles From: GUEST,RA Date: 02 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM
Surprised that nobody yet has mentioned the use of the problematic term 'British Isles', which is sure to irk many in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles From: GUEST,RA
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 06:55 AM
I wonder what Lankum and some of the others think of being described as musicians from 'The British Isles'?

Probably the same as last week. I doubt that they gave it a thought.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 08:19 AM

.. and the Falklands.. and.. etc.. etc.. etc..

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 08:01 AM

The British Isles is a geographical term and includes the Republic.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 07:10 AM

The Isles are a bit less British after the election result- have the Irish seen sense at last?