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Source singers and their songs

Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 03:32 AM
GUEST,Sean O'Shea 19 Feb 20 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Observer 19 Feb 20 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 19 Feb 20 - 08:08 AM
r.padgett 19 Feb 20 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Feb 20 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 10:12 AM
r.padgett 19 Feb 20 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 19 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM
r.padgett 19 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Observer 19 Feb 20 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Julia L 19 Feb 20 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 20 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,HiLo 19 Feb 20 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 19 Feb 20 - 01:25 PM
GeoffLawes 19 Feb 20 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 19 Feb 20 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 19 Feb 20 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 19 Feb 20 - 03:22 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 19 Feb 20 - 06:59 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Feb 20 - 07:27 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 19 Feb 20 - 08:21 PM
The Sandman 20 Feb 20 - 02:51 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 20 - 02:56 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 20 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Feb 20 - 05:31 AM
GUEST,Guest 20 Feb 20 - 06:35 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 20 Feb 20 - 07:40 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 20 Feb 20 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 21 Feb 20 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Feb 20 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,alan Whittle 22 Feb 20 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Feb 20 - 01:48 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Feb 20 - 02:28 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 20 - 04:31 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 20 - 04:33 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 05:15 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 05:21 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Feb 20 - 08:19 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 08:38 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 20 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 20 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Starship 23 Feb 20 - 09:38 AM
Stanron 23 Feb 20 - 10:23 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 20 - 10:37 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 10:52 AM
Jeri 23 Feb 20 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 23 Feb 20 - 11:36 AM
The Sandman 23 Feb 20 - 12:31 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 20 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 23 Feb 20 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,big al whittle 23 Feb 20 - 08:31 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 20 - 01:49 AM
The Sandman 24 Feb 20 - 02:05 AM
The Sandman 24 Feb 20 - 02:15 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 20 - 02:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 24 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 20 - 03:31 AM
r.padgett 24 Feb 20 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 24 Feb 20 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 24 Feb 20 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,big al whittle 24 Feb 20 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Feb 20 - 05:46 AM
The Sandman 24 Feb 20 - 08:20 AM
The Sandman 24 Feb 20 - 01:37 PM
r.padgett 25 Feb 20 - 12:37 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 02:30 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 25 Feb 20 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Feb 20 - 04:36 AM
The Sandman 25 Feb 20 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Feb 20 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 25 Feb 20 - 05:38 AM
Brian Peters 25 Feb 20 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 25 Feb 20 - 05:51 AM
r.padgett 25 Feb 20 - 06:11 AM
Rain Dog 25 Feb 20 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 09:41 AM
Brian Peters 25 Feb 20 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Feb 20 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Cj 25 Feb 20 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 25 Feb 20 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Feb 20 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 25 Feb 20 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 25 Feb 20 - 06:23 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 20 - 03:19 AM
The Sandman 26 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM
GUEST 26 Feb 20 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 26 Feb 20 - 03:55 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 20 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 20 - 06:56 AM
Brian Peters 26 Feb 20 - 07:05 AM
The Sandman 26 Feb 20 - 08:46 AM
Jack Campin 26 Feb 20 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,henryp 26 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 26 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Feb 20 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 27 Feb 20 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 27 Feb 20 - 12:21 PM
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Subject: Source singers and their songs songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:32 AM

Perhaps it might be possible to widen the former discussion which has been (reasonably, in my opinion) closed by discussing traditional singers and how (and why) they learned their songs

The subject of mediating has featured far too much in the past - it is a term invented by academics based largely, as far as I can see, on the incorrect idea that traditional singers, at one point in their lives, ceased to learn and develop and their repertoires became fossilised into a finished article - that, of course, was not the case
Traditional singers learned their songs because they valued them and enjoyed listening to them and singing them - they continued to add to their repertoires for as long as they had an audience to listen to them and for as long as they considered it worthwhile to do so.

As Walter Pardon is one of our main sources of how the folk tradition worked, I'm happy to deal with what we learned from him, but we also got infomation from Travellers of how a living tradition continued operate and how it was affected by the use of printed ballad sheets used their traditional songs as a source of income - a direct connection with the broadside trad

I hope we can continue this without a repetition of hammered-to-death arguments
Can I suggest that in order that everyone might have their say, rather one person posting 7-8-9 consecutive posts, we might limit our input to one at a time (or maybe two, if something needs correcting) - flooding arguments smacks of filibustering to me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 05:04 AM

My father,a Cork man, sang,almost as a matter of course, from dawn to dusk, whatever the day had for him.They were songs from his area and interestingly,I think in consideration, he sang no rebel songs, which is the staple of many in some Irish singing forums.But he never performed them to an audience.In the fifties,I readily loved them for their stories, tunes and the beauty of his light tenor voice.We had no TV and didn't listen to a radio much so his songs were the ones that went in and stayed in my head to this day.This was true osmosis.I never made any effort to learn them formally, they just were there.
Only in the sixties, hearing singers like Ian Campbell on his Sunday television show, did I reconnect with my father's songs and realise that I had a repertoire that was so much more important than I had given it credit for.
I think my point is that I didn't learn these songs from performance,I learnt them from two lives connected in habit and companionship and everyday living.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 06:12 AM

My personal introduction was amazingly similar to Sean O'Shea's above, except in my case the singer I first heard was my mother. The part of Sean's post that really strikes home with me was why he loved the songs because they told stories and were set to lovely melodic tunes. Also like Sean the part of the country I was brought up in was rich in songs about it's industries, agriculture and it's history. Because I liked those songs growing up enabled me to recognise, appreciate and learn similar material from walks of life and places other than those of my childhood, and if I can quote Sean, "I didn't learn these songs from performance,I learnt them from two lives connected in habit and companionship and everyday living."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:08 AM

In respect of song sources, do you believe that there is a chicken and egg situation with the Broadside ballad industry, and the song tradition, or do you subscribe to the belief that most traditional songs from the 19th century can be traced back to street literature, and the pleasure gardens, and did not previously exist in the working class repertoire. I realise that this is a monumentally large generalisation, but since we ware trying to keep things simple and on an even keel, I would be interested in an answer.
My second point in respect of sources is of course the tunes. So many of our Folk song tunes seem to be from the 'Derry Down' 'Miller of Dee' 'Gregory Walker' 'Gee ho dobbin' 'Jack Pudding' and of course ' Villikins' tune families. This in no way lessens the quality of the songs, quite the opposite. With this in mind there is a view that there is a keenly defined traditional style of singing, which is arguably better preserved in Ireland. So back to chicken and egg. Which came first? The style or the tune?
I don't expect anybody to wave a magic wand over these questions, but they have long interested me, and may be your good selves.
I totally subscribe to Jim's parameters of behaviour as described above!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:39 AM

I would hazard a guess that "early" songs were poems or ditties made up with the intention of entertaining, much like "jokes" ~ the use of tunes in my view helps to aid memory of the "performer" and also aids the understanding and retention of interest by the audience members

The song topics would I believe be general relevant and known to the intended audience

The performers will have had the need to be accepted by their intended audience, either on a "prestige" basis or maybe to make a living!

Broadside ballads, the oral tradition and other influences like shanties and commissioned songs will all have had an input into the melting pot of "living" song material and radio will of course had a major contribution to popularisation of the "pop" songs of the day

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:54 AM

"chicken and egg situation"
As a working knowledge of our oral traditions dates back only as far as the beginning of the 20th century, this is and will remain an unsolvable enigma
The fact that many of our folk songs appeared in print proves nothing - songs like 'The Bramble Briar' date as least as far back as the mid-1300 when Boccacio used it in his 'Decameron' - Travellers were still singing it in the 1970s as 'The Constant Farmer's Son'
In the 1970s, Iain Russell collected a song entitled 'The Pear Tree' from Frank Hinchliff - 1484 - Chaucer used the same plot in his 'Merchant's Tale' in the 1340s
There are many examples of songs and ballads appearing in different forms over the centuries - even millennia - the ballad, Hind Horn' shares it's plot with the account of Odysseus returning from The Trojan Wars to find that his wife was being married off to a rival lord
'Get Up and Bar the Door' appeared as a tale in Ancient India and even earlier, in ancient Egypt, in a tale which describes two tomb robbers arguing about who should shut the door of the tomb they are robbing in case they are discovered by the Pharaoh's guards.
That song was still being sung in early twentieth century Dorset as 'John Blunt' while at the same time, being told as a tale entitled 'The Silence Wager' in Rural West Kerry
Given these time-lines, it is highly unlikely that many of out folk songs hadn't appeared at some time or another long, long before universal literacy was even a twinkle in the eye
The broadside really were 'the new kid on the block' compared to many of our folk songs - they only put in an appearance in a major way when our oral traditions were in decline - and they helped accelerate that process, if anything

I was delighted to see both Sean's and Observer's postings -
Ireland has produced indisputable proof of the ability of the rural poor to produce many hundreds of songs on every subject under the sun, particularly since the Famine, but almost certainty well before
As with most peoples, love is the main theme - in Ireland, love of home (referred to as 'A sense of place') being a close second and the struggle for Independence taking 'The Bronze'
Every County in Ireland, North and South, churned songs out describing events and aspirations, those in The South and West probably being the most dominant
You can here many of these on the Clare County website, such as this on describing the notorious FANORE SCHOOL INCIDENT in 1914
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:55 AM

I feel that Ray is right. WP believed that his family had learned their songs from broadsheet ballads. But he also learned some of his from records, some in the army, and he used texts and ballad sheets to make his own versions of songs which he only remembered parts of.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:12 AM

"WP believed that his family had learned their songs from broadsheet ballads. "
Walter simply didn't know and said so to the tape recorder
He never saw a broadside ballad himself and there were none in his collection of papers and books
Walter's family were hoarders who seldom threw anything out, certainly nothing relating to his family's singing
He had family documents going back to the middle of the 19th century - not a broadside among them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:46 AM

"In the 1970s, Iain Russell collected a song entitled 'The Pear Tree' from Frank Hinchliff" above

~ had also been collected by Mike Yates, Rauiridh and Alvina Grieg 1976 per The English Folksinger ~ Collectors had been working from Leeds University LAVA I understand at the time

Ray

seems that it was also "known" in Scotland and I can only surmise that the song had "fetched" up from itinerant navvies working on reservoirs or dams in the Sheffield area ~ Frank was a farmer and had protected employment rights during the war, as did miners ~ so free time in the pub maybe on a Friday or Saturday nights for a sing!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM

Surprised by that Jim. I remember old Bill House talking about the ballad singer who used to come round the Bridport are crying ' All the songs of the day!' and that would have been just before the first world war. He talked about families keeping the song sheets for ages.
Could it be that Walters repertoire was so large and complete he needed no prompting from street literature.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM

Ian Russell had quite a lot of work in the early 1970s collecting and recording in Sheffield ~ including his work on the Sheffield Carols ~ still popular around the area and beyond into Derbyshire adjacent to Sheffield

Ray


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:43 AM

The ballad singers were very late on the scene compare to how long many of these songs have been around
Up to comparatively recently it was always believed that the repertoire was made up of a mixture of those songs composed by the people themselves and those brought in on ballad sheets, which has always made sense to me
What the proportions were was totally unknown and probably unknowable now)
That fact that widespread literacy in rural areas did not begin to take hold until the mid-1830s and even then, poorly lit housing made reading highly unlikely as a leisure pursuit suggested that country singers were still relying heavily on the oral traditions for their songs   
Travellers, of couse, who featured strongly in the passign on of songs and ballads still haven't fully accepted literacy as essential to their culture

Can I clear up this 'Walter' mess
Walter sang only one song at home sessions - Dark Eyed Sailor
As an only child he was taken under the wing of the two surviving singers (uncles) in the family who sang to him constantly - they were reluctant to pass on their songs on to anybody else
Walter heard the singing at home gatherings (birthdays and Christmas) but he didn't remember the Harvest Suppers prior to that - there was no pub singing in the area as far as he knew, but he did hear his Uncle Billy singing 'Generals All' after an Agricultural Workers Union meeting in North Walsham (through a window)
He began to take an interest in the songs and was disturbed when his cousins moved away from the family repertoire and took op the 'modern stuff'.
When war broke out, he was recruited for the army (he was exempted from fighting abroad because of his health) - when he returned in 1946 his uncles has died, so he systematically began writing down what he could remember of their songs by 'pestering' family members
He memorised the tunes on his melodeon
He got most of the songs (he thought) and after he was 'discovered' he sought help with the few he'd fail to get full versions of

The only 'new song' he learned was 'Topman and the Afterguard' which he learned in the Army - he regarded that version as 'obscene' so he sought out another text
He never leaned a single song in full from a book - everything he sang later was part of the family repertoire (the only exception being the Thomas Hardy poem 'Trampwoman's Tragedy' which he made a tune for not long before he died - we are the only ones he ever sang that to

As far as Dark Arches is concerned - he gave what he knew to us and we helped him fill in the rest with the assistance of Mike Yates
The fragment is in our collection as "a fragment' we recorded it once and we have archived that with the full details of how it became a full song (we asked that he pass on that information to whoever else he sang it to)
As far as I know, it never appeared on any of his albums - Mike Yates or Bill Leader certainly never issued it

For those interested - this is Walter's repertoire (sorry about taking up so much space
Jim Carroll

Walter Pardon’s Repertoire
All Among The Barley                        
All For Me Grog
All Jolly Fellows (f rag)                        
All The Little Chickens In The Garden        
As I Wandered By The Brookside                
Balaclava
Bald Headed End Of The Broom
Banks of Allan Water
Banks of The Clyde                                
Bells Are Ringing For Sarah                        
Best Old Wife In The World
Black Eyed Susan
Black Velvet Band                                
Blow The Winds I O
Bluebell
Boat Is Going Over
Bold Fisherman
Bold Princess Royal                                
Bonny Bunch of Roses
Boys in Navy Blue                                 
Bright Golden Store
British Man Of War
Broomfield Hill                                 
Burningham Boys
Bush of Australia
Butter And Cheese And All
Caroline And Her Young Sailor Bold
Carrion Crow                                         
Cock-a-doodle-doo                                
Coltishall School Treat
Come And See The Kaiser (Harland Road)
Come Little Leaves
Come To Me In Canada
Country Life
Cuckoo                
Cunning Cobbler
Cupid The Ploughboy
Dandy Man
Dark Arches
Dark Eyed Sailor
Darling Dinah Kitty Anna Maria      
Derby Ram
Deserter
Devil and the Farmer's Wife
Dinah Kitty Anna Maria
Dolly Varden Hat                                 
Down By The Abbey Ruins                         
Faithful Sailor Boy        
Farmer's Boy                                        
Farmyard Song                                
Female Drummer                                
Footprints in the Snow         
Game Of Dominoes
Generals All                                        
Genevive                                        
Give My Love To Nancy
Goodbye King (election parody to Dolly Grey)
Gooseberry Tree                                
Gorgonzola Cheese                                 
Grace Darling
Grandfather's Clock                                
Green Bushes                                           
Green Grows The Laurels                         
Handsome Cabin Boy
Hanging on the Old Barbed Wire
Has Anybody Seen Our Cat
Help One Another Boys
Hockey Tar Tarry Tee                                
Hold The Fort                                        
Home Boys Home                                 
Hungry Army
Huntsman
Husband Taming                                
I Don't Care If There's A Girl There                
I Wish I Wish
I Wish They'd Do It Now
I’ll Hang My Harp on a Willow Tree
I’z Yorkshire Though In London
If I Were A Blackbird                                
If I Were A Policeman                        
If Those Lips Could Only Speak
If Those Lips Could Only Speak (parody)           
I'll Be All smiles Tonight                         
I'll Come Back To you My Sweetheart
I'll Have No Union (Farmer's boy Parody)
I'll Walk Beside You
I'm Bound To Emigrate To New Zealand
I'm Yorkshire Though in London
In Our Backyard Last Night                        
In The Shade of The Old Apple Tree
Irish Girl
Irish Molly O
It's For The Money
It's Hard to Say Goodbye To Your Own Native Land
Jack Hall
Jack Tar On Shore
Jackie Boy        
John Barleycorn                                 
John Reilly                                         
Jolly Waggoner                                 
Jones' Ale        
Just Down The Lane
Kitty Come Come
Kitty Wells
Lawyer
Little Ball of Yarn                                
Long A'growing
Lord Lovell
Loss of The Ramilles                                
Maid of Australia
Maid of the Mill
Marble Arch
Men of Merry Merry England   
Mermaid
Miller's Three Sons
Miner's Dream of Home
Miner's Return        
Mistletoe Bough                                
More Trouble In My native Land                
Mother Machree
My Little Blue Apron To Fill (The Gleaner)
My Old master Told Me                        
Nancy Fancied a Soldier                        
Naughty Jemima Brown
Not For Joe                                        
Oak And The Ash                                
Oh Joe Do Let Me Go                                
Oh Joe The Boat is Going Over               
Old Armchair
Old Brown's Daughter
Old Kentucky Home
Old Miser
Old Mother Pittle Pots
Old Rustic Bridge By The Mill
Old Woman of Yorkshire                        
One Cold Morning In December                
Parson And The Clerk                
Parson Brown                                        
Peggy Band (John Clare's version with Walter's tune)
Peggy Band (trad. version)
Poacher's Fate
Polly Vaughan                                         
Poor Little Joe                                                
Poor Roger Is Dead                                        
Poor Smuggler's Boy
Pretty Ploughboy
Put A Bit of Powder On It Father
Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Rakish Young Fellow                                 
Rambling Blade
Ratcliff Highway
Ring The Bell Watchman                        
Rise Sally Walker
Rosin The Beau
Sailor Cut Down In His Prime
Saucy Sailor Boy
Seventeen Come Sunday
Shamrock Rose And Thistle   
She Stood In A Working Man's Dwelling
Ship Sailed Away From Old England
Ship That Never Returned   
Ship To Old England Came
Silver Threads Among The Gold
Skipper and His Boy
Slave Driving Farmers
So I Will
Soldier Boy (Butcher Boy)
Somebody Had To fetch The Flag                
Sons Of Labour                                
Spanish Cavalier
Stars and Stripes and John Bull Forever         
Steam Arm                                           
Stick To Your Mother Son                        
Strawberry Fair                                
Susan The Pride Of Kildare                        
Suvlah Bay
Sweet Belle Mahone
Ten Thousand Miles Away
That's How You Get Served When You're Old   
There's a Long-long Trail
They All Do It                                 
They Don't Grow On Tops of Trees
Thirty Nine/Forty Five Star                        
Thornaby Woods
Topman And The Afterguard
Trampwoman's Tragedy                                
Trees They Do Grow High
Turning The Mangle                                        
Two Jolly Butchers
Two Little Girls in Blue
Two Lovely Black Eyes
Up To The Rigs
Van Dieman's Land
Wake Up John
Wanderer                                                
Wearing Of The Green                                 
We're All Sawing                                        
We've Both been Here Before                        
Wheel Your Perambulator                                
When Father Joined The Territorials
When London's Asleep                                
When The Cocks begin To Crow                        
When The Fields Are White With Daisies        
When You Wake Up In The Morning
While Shepherds Watched
Will You Come Back To Bombay
Wind Blows High                                        
Wing Wang Waddles                                        
Woman's Work Is Never Done                         
Won't You Come To Me In Canada                        
Woodman Spare That Tree
Would You Like To Know How Bread Is Made
Wreck of The Lifeboat                                 
Write Me A Letter From Home
You Wore A Tunic


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:46 AM

love of home (referred to as 'A sense of place')

Very well put, these represent the majority of the songs, I first heard as a child, only one of which was written from the perspective of an exile, all the others from the perspective of those who loved the place so much they'd never even think of leaving it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:28 PM

Would be interested ot know whih part of Ireland you come from Observer
I'm making a list of the Counties where these locally based songs were found
We've put together 80-odd from West Clare which were almost certainly made in the first half of the 20th century
Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:30 PM

HI folks- I'm feeling like this thread is a rather narrow "Celtic /Anglo" focus.. perhaps that should be designated in the title? Does anyone have information about how songs are transmitted in other cultures?

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:04 PM

Determining origins, or source, is a tricky business. "The carnival is over", for instance, has the same tune as "Steka Rasin". Does anyone know whether the latter was original or based on something earlier still? Once we go back beyond the written word, who can really say what the source is?

Worse still. Stories of unrequited love or heroism or mysterious events etc. are repeated over and over again through historu. Who knows what the source of such a story or song is?

To enable a meaningful discussion of 'source' someone needs to set a limit of how far back we go. In my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:21 PM

Hi Julia, you have made an interesting point. It may be worth opening a separate thread on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:25 PM

That is an amazing repertoire and thanks for listing it Jim. I wonder how many singers with similar repertoires had only a sample of their songs collected. Henry Burstow of course springs to mind.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:32 PM

There are many source recordings in this Mudcat thread
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=166144
/mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=166144


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:47 PM

Regarding the question of whether Pardon believed his grandfather learned his songs from broadsheets:

Here are some extracts from a piece complied from transcripts interviews with WP from the MUSTRAD web site:

"My grandfather got the songs from broadsheets, apparently; that's how they were brought round, so they always told me."

"My uncle Billy, he said he remembered when a man-o'-war sunk off Ireland and someone composed a song about it, and two men come along here with one of those broadsheets and sung the song over to my grandfather. I don't know if he bought it, but I was told the words and music was ruled on it, and they charged a penny. That was how they got them into the villages. I asked Uncle Billy how it was that my grandfather managed to learn a hundred, 'cause that was very seldom he went out of the village - perhaps one day in the year to Norwich, or occasionally to North Walsham, and he said that was how they got round: by broadsheets. None of 'em got saved in the family; there was only one old song that I ever did find. The Transports [Van Diemen's Land] - wrote out by hand. I never dial see any of the broadsheets; they must have got destroyed somehow or other. A lot of the things that were my grandfather's have survived in this house though - that chair, and the grandfather clock, and that old Queen Anne table … "

It may be true that Jim Carroll for whatever reason did not record WP saying this, but for me it is clear that other people did. And I think it reasonable to believe that this is what WP believed to be the truth. I'm assuming Jim has never checked this material out?

The MUSTRAD site says that the quotations mainly come from interviews with Karl Dallas and Peter Bellamy. It also tells you where those interviews were published. I think some of them are available to listen to on the British Museum web site.

http://mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm#cred

Thank you for reading


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:02 PM

"HI folks- I'm feeling like this thread is a rather narrow "Celtic /Anglo" focus.."
Basically the whole discussion is based on comments made by Dave Harker, which were aimed at English song Julia
American, Australian and N.Z. former colonies would have been very much British based repertoires
Beyond that I personally know little, apart from the bits I picked up an International Ballad Conferences, which wery largely about the material rather than their origins and distribution - I would love to learn more
My father was a prisoner of war in Spain in the 1930s and he came back singing songs that were being made about that conflict, largely by soldiers - I sing a couple of them (in private) for my own pleasure   

"someone needs to set a limit of how far back we go"
As 'The Wedding of the the Frog and the Mouse' was mentioned in the 1500s as being "sung by shepherds" and was still being collected from source singers in the 20th century and Barbara Allen was an "old Scottish" lady in 1666, it's hard to draw a line on where to start
Some songs can be aged by their subject matter, but many have universal and timeless themes, and can't be
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:15 PM

"so they always told me."
Walter said what he said to used about broadsides - he didn't know one way or another
Produce your source and we can discuss it - if yo can dismiss what I say, I have no problem in dismissing what you do
I think we have had enough of this
Go listen to what Walter said in the British Library - - otherwise you will have to wait to see if the BL puts it on line

You need to remember that Walter was remembering and correcting things he had remembered incorrectly all the time
He was plunged into the limelight and confronted with questions and tape-recorders within a year of being discovered - we wre still getting fresh and corrected information from hi up to a year before he died
Karl Dallas was among the very first to interview him

"Henry Burstow of course springs to mind."
Phil Tanner was saidf to have had 80 odd songs (according to Alvah Liddell)
By the time he was recorded there weren't enough to fill a full LP
Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:18 PM

I had no idea. The Gower is fairly close to Somerset geographically, and with some obvious exceptions Phil Tanners repertoire is echoed in some of the numerous Somerset singers visited by Sharp. I suppose that is some consolation. Tanners singing was a master class in traditional style in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:22 PM

Sorry I meant to ask, is that Alvar Liddell BBC broadcaster?


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 06:59 PM

With regard to the extensive repertoire of songs, of all kinds, listed above, well, "Genevieve", "My Grandfather's Clock", "Hanging on the old barbed wire", "If those lips could only speak", "I'll walk beside you", "Mother Machree", "Irish Molly-O", "Miner's dream of home", "Old Kentucky Home", "Old Rustic Bridge", "Silver threads among the gold", "There's a long, long trail a-winding", "Two lovely Black Eyes", "The wearing of the Green", "when the fields are white with daisies", "Woodman, spare that tree", ?"While Shepherds watched [their flocks by night]?", were certainly "modern stuff" not that long ago, and most of these are simply popular songs from the Music Halls; often a date of publication, author, composer and singers particularly associated with their performance can readily be found. Did the singer distinguish at all between these songs/that kind of song and those which had an earlier origin?


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 07:27 PM

"Did the singer distinguish at all between these songs/that kind of song and those which had an earlier origin"
Sorry Blackie - you're obviously a newcomer here

Yes - he most certainly did, and spoke at length about the differences
The Irish Travellers were the same
There is every suggestion that many source singers did
I've quoted this many times, but this differentiation was summed up perfectly by Jeam Richie describing when she was recording in Ireland in the early fifties:
From an interview repeated a few years ago in The Irish Times

"“I used the song Barbara Allen as a collecting tool because everybody knew it.
When I would ask people to sing me some of their old songs they would sometimes sing ‘Does Your Mother Come from Ireland?’ or something about shamrocks.
But if I asked if they knew Barbara Allen, immediately they knew exactly what kind of song I was talking about and they would bring out beautiful old things that matched mine, and were variants of the songs I knew in Kentucky. It was like coming home.”


"I meant to ask, is that Alvar Liddell BBC broadcaster?"
Yes, it was Nick - he befriended Phil Tanner some time before he was recorded"
There is an unconfirmed story that Tanner was recorded by a 'Dialect Society' group who were studying the local dialects in South Wales and they recorded most of his songs, but the recordings were never made available because the songs never fell within the remit of The Society

I know for sure that Linguaphone recorded both Welsh and Scots language traditional songs on cylinder for their projects and that copies of those are housed at C# House - we have copies of them - poor condition, but interesting
Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:21 PM

Thanks, Jim; I've not only read that quotation before, but have used something similar as "shorthand" in the same way. By the way, while some people might find "Blackie" a mite problematical nowadays, I'm quite all right with it, and indeed prefer my old Service nick-name based on a long posting somewhere which left me very tanned; "Darkie".


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 02:51 AM

i have heard composed songs sung her in county cork some going back to the 1950s some earlier to the 1930s about local events etc


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 02:56 AM

" "Darkie".
Didn't men any offence - of course - I've heard Travellers use your chosen name the same way - got into the habit
Are you the piper ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM

Not a piper, just "An SeanFhearr Caol Liath" now. But ABCD has been convenient.

By the way, with regard to "something about shamrocks" (and no doubt songs liberally sprinkled with the conventional words and mis-spellings to indicate "Irish") nevertheless, as a singer & collector (J.C.) once said, there's often something worthwhile in those popular pieces once so admired and now widely discountenanced; Andrew Cherry's "The Dear Little Shamrock" is, in my view, one such. ABCD


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 05:31 AM

Very true, of course
When we started collecting in Clare I used to hold my head in my hands each time we were given 'yet another bleedin' song about mammy and home" - until I realised that we had not met a single family who hadn't lot a relative to 'the emigration'
Up to 'The Tiger', there was hardly a young person between the ages of eighteen and thirty living in the Miltown Malbay area - better now, but not much
My own family were Famine Refugees, but you tend not to relate that sort of thing to the songs until you put them in context
Jim
ONE of my FAVOURITES


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 06:35 AM

Posted on the wrong thread:

Two of my favourite analyses of a classic ballad by two masters of their trades:

Edward, (Child 13) What Put The Blood, 'Pop’s ‘ Johnny Connors, Wexford Traveller.

"I heard this song from my grandmother’s uncle again, Johnny Murphy, the brother of Mick Murphy, he’d dead now, both men is dead, they were very old.
My grandmother; well, she’s still living, she’s 106 –
Seems the Murphys, the Gommers, you know, they were tradition, they were poets, undiscovered poets, you know.
J. C. Where did he get it, d’you know?
P. J. God knows where he got it, probably from his great – great grandfather
But the song is anyway… I’d say the song, myself, goes back to.... depicts Cain and Abel in the Bible and where Our Lord said to Cain.... I think this is where the Travellers Curse come from too, because Our Lord says to Cain, “Cain”, says Our Lord, “you have slain your brother, and for this”, says Our Lord, says he, “and for this, be a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth”.
“Not so Lord” says he, “this punishment is too severe, and whoever finds me”, says he, “will slay me, “says he “or harass me”.
“Not so”, says Our Lord, says he, “whoever finds Cain and punishes or slains (sic) Cain, I will punish them sevenfold”.
And I think this is where the Travellers curse come from.
Anyway, the song depicts this, this er....
I call it Cain and Abel anyway; there never was a name for the song, but that what I call it, you know, the depiction of Cain and Abel.”

Dowdled verse
What put the blood on your hands my son?
Son, come tell it unto me..
It’s the blood ofa hare I killed the other day,
And I killed most manfully- ee.
And killed most manfully, idle-ee

That’s too red for the blood of a hare.
Son… etc
Well, it’s the blood of me youngest brother that I killed the other day
And I killed most brutefully - ee.
And I killed…. Etc

What will you do when the Lord comes around?
I will put my foot on board of a ship
And I'll sail to a foreign country - ee.

What will you do with your two fine horses?
I will take the collars all of their necks
And they’ll plough no more for me – ee

What will you do with your fine hounds?
Well I will strip then straps all off their necks
And they’ll run no more for me- ee

What will you do with your two fine children?
I’ll give one to me mammy and the other to me daddy
Sure, they’ll keep them company-ee

What will you do with your fine house and land?
I will it here to the birds all in the air
And they’ll breed in that for they-ee

What will you do with your beautiful wife?
Sure she will put her foot on board of a ship
And she’ll sail along with me-ee

Dowdled line

See ‘12c Henry My Son Pop's Johnny Connors’

Edward, Edward. A Scottish Ballad” (Child 13) Bertrand Harrison Bronson
"Edward” has justly held a place of honor among ballads ever since it was first given to the world, in 1765, in the Reliques of Thomas Percy. For many persons, indeed, it has come to typify the whole category, so that “Edward” is what they think of when the popular ballad is mentioned. Ballad-lovers who wish to win converts are likely to point first to “Edward” as exemplifying more strikingly than any other piece the peculiar merits of this kind of literature. No class in public speaking neglects it; no concert baritone but includes it in his repertory. All this is sufficient testimony to its universal appeal.
Its right to these laurels was confirmed by the great master, Francis James Child. “Edward,” he said, “is not only unimpeachable, but has ever been regarded as one of the noblest and most sterling specimens of the popular ballad


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 07:40 AM

Yes, indeed, there are always some lines that "strike home". Just looking at the rhyming and the idiom, I wonder in the second verse if a slight change might advantageously be made: "The kitchen it was full of them, and one by one the whole of them..." would be idiomatically acceptable in some parts of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 20 Feb 20 - 07:41 AM

Sorry, "kitchen here was full..." ABCD


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 01:04 PM

1 The list of songs in Pardon's repertoire appears to be missing "The Yellow Rose of Texas".

Regarding the views of Bronson, stated above to be a master of analysis: I checked what he said about this song. Two separate sources have suggested that he thought it had a 'literary' origin.

a) The Fresnostate.edu ballad site gives a reference for this:

BronsonBAS: Bertrand Harris Bronson, The Ballad as Song (essays on ballads), University of California Press, 1969

May I quote from their discussion?

"Bertrand Bronson, in his essay "Edward, Edward, A Scottish Ballad" (reprinted in BronsonBAS, pp. 1-17) makes the point that this song is often included in literary anthologies as one of the best examples of the ballad art. But, he observes, it is always the Percy version which gets printed -- and this has several problems. First is a point raised by Motherwell: how does a ballad of probably-Scottish origin come to have a hero named "Edward" (as in "Edward I, the Hammer of the Scots")? (p. 3 in the essay as printed in BronsonBAS). Second, the ending in which Edward concludes by accusing his mother of plotting the whole thing occurs only in the Percy version, and that this produces the absurd situation of the mother and son both knowing what is going on and hiding it -- it's Hamlet and Claudius hunting each other, not a genuine murder mystery (this is in the "footnote" on pp. 15-17). And none of the other versions show this feature. And the Percy version cannot be traced back beyond Percy's source Lord Hailes. Bronson concludes, as Archer Taylor also concluded, that the Percy text, in addition to Percy's usual practice of archaizing and fouling up the spelling, has been rewritten to be more dramatic. Bronson's argument strikes me as very compelling, particularly since we know that Percy was often guilty of such things."

b) David C Fowler, in a book kindly recommended to me by Steve Gardham, says that Bronson 'fully demonstrated the literary origin of this song' citing a different Bronson piece, 'Edward, Edward, A Scottish Ballad' SFQ lV (1940) 1-13, 159-61


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 20 - 02:53 PM

His name was Walter - it seems ill manners as pat of establishioing superiority over those being talked about has caught on big time with those who never leave their desks- is it really that difficult to be polite to dead singers whose singing you though "embarrassing" ?
Grow up
"The Yellow Rose of Texas"."
He didn't sing it, as far as I am aware - we didn't record it, I'm pretty sure Mike Yates didn't - neither did Karl Dallas or Bill Leader
I've no idea who did

"Edward"
I had to recommended Fowler to Steve several times before he went out and bought it, by the way - he had never head of it
If you care to read what Fowler Bronson wrote ('Edward, Edward, a Scottish Ballad' - The Ballad as Song, B H Bronson, Uni. of Cal, Press 1969) he was writing of the literary nature of the version that appeared in Percy, which may have been the first published, but there is no evidence at all to show that this is the first version
The story is common in Legend and Lore - Cain and Abel (as 'Pop's' Johnny pointed out, Romulus and Remus (3rd century BC), Baldur (Norse Mythology), The Mahabharata' ..... take your pick   
It even got a place in the dictionary, so popular was it 'Fratricide'
It is beyond belief to think that the story hasn't appeared in orally transmitted song many, many times in the interim period
A little common sense goes a long way in these things
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 20 - 06:08 PM

Very interesting seeing all Walter's repertoire.

if you sing all your life, you certainly get through a lot of material. I often get asked how I know and remember so many songs.

And yet some people need a folder with the words in for songs of only two verses that they have been singing for many years.

still....wouldn't do for us to be all the same.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 01:48 AM

'Embarrassingly bad' was indeed the phrase I used to describe 'The Bush of Australia'. Pardon was fond of songs like this: in what I think is his earliest interview he focusses on this and other examples including Cock a Doodle Doo. The interviewers ask him what the women thought when songs like this were sung and he says they never paid any attention to it. The Bush of Australia is about a white colonialist leaving a dark-skinned native alone with his baby. It seems to me some kind of fantasy which at best highlights the irresponsible attitudes of the colonialist, though Pardon (and his interlocutors) seems just to have relished these. Some versions omit the reference to the dark skin of the woman; for whatever reason Pardon's version does not.

I note that you refer to Bronson as Bronson. Can you not show some courtesy to this scholar? And this is just me, but I don't think you are in a position to give people on Mudcat lessons in manners. More or less your first post to the Harker thread called the people on it 'poodles' and contained the f*** word. NB This post has since been deleted, but I think the one where you followed it up with 'nodding dogs' is still there.

May I remind you that it was you yourself who quoted from Bronson. If you are now claiming that he was referring to a different version, then you have simply undermined your own 'analysis' of this song. You also have to convince me that both Fowler and the Fresno web site are wrong about Bronson and you are correct and fully represent what he said. I know whose version my money is on.

It is interesting that you follow Pops in assuming that the story is about fratricide: I am wondering what textual evidence there is for this in the various versions. Some commentators say it is the father he has killed; others state that it is either the father or the brother.

Nobody is denying that stories of men killing their brothers crop up from time to time. I think it likely that such murders did take place relatively often, families being what they are, and that more than one story about such an event will have been written.

Blithely asserting that all these stories can be linked together and regarded as a continuing tradition back through the centuries strikes me as wishful thinking, an example of 'mediation', perhaps?

The account provided by your information is interesting, but I don't see that it should affect my perceptions of this question of the song's origins. That said, I don't suppose you are actually suggesting that source singers have any particular expertise in such matters?

I'll leave it to you to follow up on The Yellow Rose of Texas.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 02:28 AM

Al Whittle often talks good sense.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 03:20 AM

please can you call him Walter or WalterPardon, that was his name. Walter preferred certain songs certainly,why should he not? not sure you have the right ones.
I find your attitude to Walter hostile, if we met in public i might be inclined to adress you with anglo saxdon vernacular, but since we ae being watched by holy joe, could i ask you to desist


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 04:31 AM

"'Embarrassingly bad' was indeed the phrase I used to describe 'The Bush of Australia'."
Not true - you described Walter's singing as "embarrassingly bad" - the fact that the only time you had heard him he was singing 'Bush of Australia"   was immaterial
You qualified your disdain for his singing by suggesting there has been a deliberate 'folkie plot' to hype him to the status of 'traditional source singer'
Your ignorance of Walter's ability and position as highly respected and valued traditional singer is indicative of your total ignorance of the subject you have sought to dominate since your re-arrival on this forum
The only knowledge you appeared to have of folksong is that you have hastily gathered up during these arguments

That ignorance is demonstrated fully by your lamentably inaccurate analysis of the Song, 'The Bush of Australia'
It is certainly not about "a white colonialist leaving a dark-skinned native alone with his baby."
There is neither the mention of either a colonist or a baby in the song and the woman's colour is mentioned only as a description of her beauty - no racial implications are intended
The song is typical of the many 'sexual encounter' songs that abound in our and most song and story traditions - nothing more complicated than that
Your "colonist" could well have been a sailor or soldier (compare it with 'The Indian Lass), but he was far more likely to have been a transportee who eventually returned home.
Research on the song by Bob Thomson traced the song to a 'returned transportee' settlement on the river Gaddar adjacent to Oxborough Hall in North Norfolk - its popularity in East Anglia bears out Bob (Professor Thomson's) findings -
Bob was one of the best scholars on the broadsides I have known - he never suggested that's where the song originated
Some people have done the work, even if you are not prepared to

"It is interesting that you follow Pops in assuming that the story is about fratricide:"
Of course it is about fratracide - what else is the killing of one brother by another about - that is the definition of the term - no assumption necessary
If it was about the killing of a sister it would be sororicide - your mother, matricide or your father, patricide
Sheesh.....
There are no versions, as far as I know, that describe the killing of any of these (though I have yet to read what paels of wisdom Dave Harker may have blessed us with)
'Edward' is one of very many songs in the tradition about the killing of a family member (not 'from time to time')
It uses an extremely common and powerful ballad-motif.
'Pop's' Johnny's use of 'Cain and Abel' as a perfect example of a singer creating a 'hook' into one of his/her songs - in my opinion, brilliant

As for your opinion on source singers - see my comments above on your (lack of) knowledge of traditional singing as a genre
Source singers were faced with the constant task of making sense of the songs they sang - that they may have as much, if not more knowledge of those songs than does a paper-pushing academic goes without saying
While academics may read second hand of the situations described many of the singers come from backgrounds most affected by seduction, rape, violence, inequality, persecution, theft - even murder - the stuff that makes up our rich song tradition

As far as repect for people - if you wish to criticise giant like Bronson, you need to know a little more than you have managed to scoop up recently from your quick dips into what's available on the internet - try reading what he and some of the others you have attempted to denigrate wrote in full

Tha same goes for for Walter, who you dismissed as being a creation of a folkie plot, or "Showman", Bob Copper - read and take note of what they had to say

You have constantly described mine and Pat's work as "unreliable" and now "meditated", yet it is not yet freely available for access and I know for a fact that you have never sought permission to use it from The British Library, The Irish Traditional Music Archive, University College Dublin... or any of the other places where it is housed in full or in part
You haven't a clue how unreliable or otherwise our work is - your claim is made out of pure ill-informed spite
The overwhelming information I have put up here is through extensive quotes by the singers themselves - it is not Pat and I you are describing as "unreliable" but the singers - nothing new there
That you do so gives me and those others who have objected to your offensive behaviour every right criticise it

"Yellow Rose of Texas"
What on earth are you talking about ? - you received my answer in full - go read it
You would have rejected it as "unreliable" and "meditated" anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 04:33 AM

"Al Whittle often talks good sense."
How ****** patronising
Al and I have had our differences, but he is a level headed and dedicated performer who bends over backwards not to offend
Learn from him
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:15 AM

Walter was not an embarrasingly bad singer at any time


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:21 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKzcIE3M7To Walter . walter hold the tune fine ,this is not bad singing, psuedonymous you need to get your ears tested.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:26 AM

As a professional singer , i look for certain things regardless of style or taste ,diction , walters diction is good holding a tune walter is good. this means regardless of style his singing is good.psuedonymous youclerly do not know what you are talking about


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:19 AM

Well, since I am pushed, Walter tends to change key in the course of a song. This was discussed in a PhD on him I read, and I was glad to read that I wasn't the only one to have thought this.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:38 AM

well no he does not change key in that song so you are wrong, never mind what you read use your ears


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:56 AM

you said it was embarassingly bad,
he does not change key on that song ,you do not know what you are talking about, you regurgitate things you have read elsewhere. his singing is clear his breathing good his dction is good and he holds the tune, whether the style is to your taste does not mean he is bad


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 09:16 AM

"Well, since I am pushed, Walter tends to change key in the course of a song."
He most certainly did not - he held the tune perfectly in all his songs
Like many/most unaccompanied singers, he occasionally rose in pitch throughout the song, but that was unnoticeable
He made narrative and grammatical sense of the songs far more skillfully, no awkward gaps between phrases and lines - straightforward poetic storytelling
His narrative delivery is immaculate - all the pauses where they should be, an intelligent use of punctuation.... no 'time to buy a pint length ' breaks' to make room for an intrusively showy display of guitar-playing....
Like most of his generation of singers, he sang in his own natural speaking tone - he interpreted the song rather than promoting his own singing,
Would that more of our revival singers learned to do the same

The fact that you have moved on from "I was talking about Maid of Australia" to making up faults about Walter's singinf is indicative that you are deliberately targeting one of England's best singers deliberately - why, I wonder !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 09:18 AM

"He made narrative and grammatical sense of the songs far more skillfully, than most revival singers I have heard"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 09:38 AM

"He [Walter Pardon] most certainly did not - he held the tune perfectly in all his songs"

Not quite, Jim. He does occasionally drift off-key (or if you prefer change key) although it isn't always obvious.

Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEHFZATuK04

However, such is the world of unaccompanied singing for some people.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 10:23 AM

This is the link that Sandman posted at 05:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKzcIE3M7To

He starts in the Key of F and ends up in the key of G. Check it out. This might have happened if a battery driven recorder had dying batteries but it is not uncommon for unaccompanied singers to drift higher in pitch. It's one of the reasons I never sing without backing. I drift up in pitch.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 10:37 AM

Sorry Stan - your link comes up'unavailable'
I cannot recall 'drifting off key' being a major problem with Walter over the twenty years we recorded him (certainly no more tan any other unaccompanied singer - as you say) - I can never remember anybody lse mentioning it as a problem either
It seems to me those who are mentioning it are doing so as ammunition (not including you in this)
I agree he rises in pitch in Dick's link - I'll tell you the story of Harry Boardman singing 'The Flying Cloud' with a backdrop of blazing curtains at Manchester Uni Folk Club sometime (if I haven't already)
Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 10:52 AM

none of which makes him a bad singer, many unaccompanied singers do this. i think this illustrates the ignorance of the accuser [psuedonymous] clearly has not listened to many unaccompanied singers.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 11:19 AM

I got it, Stanton. Yes, he does shift the pitch up, but while I notice it, it doesn't really interfere with my ability to listen. I'm pretty sure I've done It. if I'm trying to learn songs, it's not a problem if I can figure out what the tune's supposed to be.

As a kid, I managed to learn songs from my completely-tone-deaf father. Not sure how I did it, but it was a useful skill. The tune of "The Bush of Australia" is pretty complicated, and I'd tend to give Pardon credit for what he did well.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 11:36 AM

By the way, the source of the information on Yellow Rose of Texas WAS Mike Yates. Another of Pardon's songs that became popular after WW II was 'I traced her little footprints in the snow'. Mike Yates was the source of that information as well.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 12:31 PM

psued , Walters diction was good he holds the tune well, that does not make him an embarrassingly bad singer.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 01:29 PM

"By the way, the source of the information on Yellow Rose of Texas WAS Mike Yates.W
Mike must have recorded it" we don't have his full list
Can't see where that fits in with traditional songs - Walter would have been quite clear that it didn't
He was insistent (and extremely logical) about that sort of thing
Go look up the interview with him where he describes the difference between genres
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 07:53 PM

I suppose some people have lower thresholds of embarrassment.

I can honestly say i can't remember the last time I felt embarrassed by a performance. Homicidal...but never really embarrassed. you occasionally meet very odd people in folk clubs.

I suppose if your idea of folk music was the sort of cabaret entertainment that was on offer for much of the 1970's - Walter Pardon might have looked amateurish - but you'd be mistaken he knew what he was doing....you were just in the wrong place, expecting football in a snooker hall.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:31 PM

PS I don't mind being patronised, Jim.
In fact I could do with some rich patrons.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 01:49 AM

Walter was not a bad unaccompanied singer we are not talking about style. I am talking about technique, drifting a tone over the course of a 5 minute song. it is not the same as suddenly changing key during a song, he certainly would not be the first or the last unaccompanied singer to do so Walter sang clearly his diction was good and he held the tune. To describe someone as an embarrassingly bad singer ref;ects and tells us more about the critics lack of understanding of this genre of singing Stanron mentioned that he always sings with an instrumentto avoid this drift, however singing with an instrument may have that advantage but it has other disadavantages, it requires considerable skill to avoid forcing the vocals to follow the instrument, unaccompanied singing allows a much freer style of rythym, which can on occasions be desirable.
I have witnessed a revival singer singing with a guitar and singing a quarter of a tone out with her guitar that in my opinion is far worse. here is peter bellamy singing the same song with concertina, the song does not drift in pitch, but even with a concertina a rythym is imposed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ripmGRt8Q


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 02:05 AM

Whether Peters singing is better [despite lack of pitch drift is debatable] and amatter of taste or style prefernce, however Walter was the source and an inspiration for Peter


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 02:15 AM

here is another source singer singing unaccompanied harry cox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozWhFUlg5YI


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 02:37 AM

"In fact I could do with some rich patrons."
Me too - but I'd rather know who they were and where their money came from - you never know nowadays with all these drug barons and human traffickers
"Anonymity can hide a thousand sins" as someone very wise once said (I think it was The Lone Ranger'
Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM

Well, you took your own thread off topic. And with Sandman's stout defence of off-key singing, what better support could you ask for?

Does nobody have any on-topic knowledge to contribute to the thread?


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 03:31 AM

"Does nobody have any on-topic knowledge to contribute to the thread?"
Everybody but you, it seems
Anonymous guests with a reputation like yours (including having been expelled), don't get to choose what's on and off topic, I'm afraif
Let's press on eh - and please stop denigrating Dick and Walter - they are/were respected singers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 04:24 AM

Peter Bellamy was a highly respected trad folk singer, and his singing style is currently being followed by the likes of Jon Boden ~ well Jon is tall and can sing in high keys ~ but in my view singers like Walter who sang with his uncle ~ and other current singers sing in their usual extended natural voice so as to let others join in their songs and keep the interest in the storyline

I have to say that I learnt songs largely from vinyl and from t' internet that is audio sources and the source singers keys and singing styles should be and in my case, I hope have been retained ~ sing in your "own voice" of course but have regard to your audience ~

Another niggle is that songs have history and the rush on occasions in sing arounds and folk clubs to get as many singers on as possible without a nod to the song its provenance and story is not always a good idea

Ray


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 04:32 AM

Guys, guys! You're doing it again! Stop rising to Pseudonymous' bait! She likes the sound of her own voice and seems determined to disparage, under the pretence of "academic enquiry", the traditional singers most of us love and admire - which, as in other threads, will inevitably make some extremely knowledgeable contributors angry and frustrated, lead to insults and ultimately get the thread closed. Then she'll move on to another thread where she can repeat her ignorant prejudices, with the same result, and so on ad infinitum. Don't respond to her jibes - let the contributors who know what they're talking about discuss the topic sensibly, and take no notice of Pseudonymous' destructive negativity!


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 04:43 AM

Well its an interesting one the off key business.

As I remember A.L Lloyd used to reckon that traditional WEREN'T singing off key. They were singing using a modal scale as the basis.

I think he was thinking about Joseph Taylor. He also said that the extinct Lincolnshire bagpipes(with its incomplete scale) would have been accompaniment basis

And I always thought that's what Bellamy and Carthy were driving at with those strange 'sliding' notes. i thought that is what they were referencing in their approach.

I don't pretend to have any actual knowledge. I was always a jobbing musician (allegedly) and the audiences in pubs and working mens clubs that I sang and played for, wouldn't have countenanced any buggering about with with the hits of Jim Reeves.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 05:11 AM

ps how do you know pseudo is a woman?

Learn to patronise Jim!

Repeat after me...

'You're most probably right m'dear! don't you worry your pretty little head about such matters. Folksong in England is a bit like long division, you couldn't really expect a sweet little thing like yourself to really understand.'


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 05:46 AM

What John Bowdwen just said but louder
"ps how do you know pseudo is a woman?"
Because she was here before posting with a name and telling us that Clare farmers learned their songs from blues records
She had he membership withdrawn eventually

"As I remember A.L Lloyd used to reckon that traditional WEREN'T singing off key"
Bert and others (I think Lomax too) had a theory that some singers deliberately sang off pitch - the Cantrometrics team called it 'unright singing'
This didn't apply to Walter - he did what some of the most seasoned singers did when singing unaccompanied - they rose in pich during the course of a song
Frank Hart did it, Harry Boardman did it, I do it - lots of singers do it
It would be surprising if a singer with no experience in singing such as Walter didn't do it
Making an issue of it, as has been done here is a way of somene who has made a seriesd of boo-boos from getting out of the hole she has dug herself into
Not so long ago she said she wasn't talking about Walter's singing beu about one of his songs
A nasty case of short term memory, I think
Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 08:20 AM

it is not off key singing.Walter sings perfectly in tune,


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 20 - 01:37 PM

I would expect a trained opera singer, or someomelike peter pears to finish on the same pitch as he she started, the point is that source singers were not trained opera singers they were people who sang purely for pleasure.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 12:37 AM

So who should you be learning songs from? Certainly the old vinyl and of course the stars of the day who are in fact singer songwriters ~ I heard a version of Lynched/Lankum ~ "What will we do when we have no money" on Sunday ~ sung by a "young thruster" actually he is talented ~and I could join in with end parts of the song ~so I have looked at the on line version and found that the song is sing able without being exceptionally high in the verse ~ what a pity, a lost opportunity to "let your neighbour sing along" this then begs the question as to why folk singers are singing and ultimate motive ~ these will of course differ with each individual and god bless 'em!

Above from my fb thread ~ also ~ "What will we do when we have no money" anyone have the provenance?

Ray

btw John Bowden and Victoria Bowden nee Shepherd ~ different to Jon Boden and Fay Hield please also note spellings carefully


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:30 AM

""What will we do when we have no money" anyone have the provenance?"
Pat and I recorded this from blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney in the 1970s, it is, as far as I know, the only version recorded from a source singer and all the revival versions came from that
We were delighted when it became popular but believed that most of the later versions fell short of Mary's singing of it - one of the best versions I can recall is sung by Mudcat's own Martin Ryan - someone added a new verse to it along the way - Martin maybe
Most of the singers I have heard treat it as a somewhat over-sentimentalised love song, but when Mary sang it, it came from the heart
Mary's life would have made an excellent plot for a Dostoevsky novel
Blind from birth with 18 children to be brought up on the road, a domestic incident caused her to lose half her younger children to 'care' (a situation she eventually remedied herself without official help)
Far from being a slushy love song, Mary treats it a magnificent two-finger gesture to a very shitty life
Because of Mary's almost total blindness, her status in her community was as a singer - she had a magnificent repertoire
Before somebody someone describes Mary as an "embarrassing singer", it needs to be remembered that, when we recorded her she was a chronic asthmatic - the last time we say her (in Blackpool, Cork City), she was breathing from a cylinder - she died shortly after
HERE


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM

Missed a bit (thought I'd posted this)
Jim

23 - What Will We Do when We'll Have No Money? (Roud 16879)   Mary Delaney
What will we do when we’ll have no money?
All true lovers, what will we do then?
Only hawk through the town for a hungry crown,
And we’ll yodel it over again.

What will I do if I’d marry a tinker?
All true lovers, what will we do then?
Only sell a tin can and walk on with me man,
And we’ll yodel it over again.

What will we do if we marry a soldier?
All true lovers, what will we do then?
Only handle his gun and we’ll fight for the fun,
And we’ll yodel it over again.

What will we do if we have a young daughter?
All true lovers, what would we do then?
Only take it in hand and walk on with me man,
And we’ll yodel it over again.

We have not found this song elsewhere, either in print or in a recording, but it bears such a striking resemblance to Mrs Elizabeth Cronin’s What would you Do if you Married a Soldier (Roud 3051) that it is probably a Traveller’s remake of the same song. Mary has a number of similar pieces: I’ve Buried Three Husbands Already and If Ever You Go to Kilkenny, etc., and, despite the fact that her speciality is the long, free ballad, she takes great pleasure in singing these made-up snatches and often is not able to finish them for laughing. On another occasion, Mary gave us this alternative to verse four;

What will we do when we’ll have a young daughter,
All true lovers, what will we do then,
Bring it on on my back and walk on for the crack,
And we’ll yodel it over again.

Other CDs: Elizabeth Cronin (What Would You Do if You Married a Soldier) - Rounder 1742.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 03:21 AM

Well I'm sorry you don't get on with each other. I don't see how either of you will be a penny richer from the disagreement.

You both obviously care a lot about folksong, and your separate experiences have taken you to dissimilar conclusions.

Its understandable. It happens a lot in life about all sorts of subjects.

There's a certain poignancv in Jim's many postings a bout the proud culture of the Travellers and the oppression of that culture. When someone feels so deeply about a subject, you'd do well to respect it, Pseud - even if you wouldn't want them asphalting your drive, or delineating your view of folk music.

You've been in this game long enough Jim , to know that there are all sorts of folk and some of the ones you disagree with still have an important contribution to make. I seem to remember one of the Seeger's caliing Bascam Lumsford , Bastard Lumsford


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 03:41 AM

"Bascam Lumsford , Bastard Lumsford"
Probably because Bascom Lamar Lunsford prevented a fundraising concert in his area which was aimed at raising money to pay for Pete Seeger's defence during Mccathy's Unamerican Activities trials
As much as I admire Lunsford's singin, I'm not sure I wouldn't have felt the same in those circumstances Al - blood/water and all that
Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 04:36 AM

Re-Lankum and Radie Peat.(hope that's spelt correctly) I rather like her singing. It's got that hard traditional edge which you mainly get from Irish singers. I sent Ian (from Lankum) some recordings of Gypsy singers from my neck of the woods, so we'll see what happens. Take a listen to Radie's rendition of Dark horse on the wind; the late Liam Weldon's song.
You could do worse than listen to the man himself by the way. His sources were the Irish Travellers.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:00 AM

if i sat in a uk folk revival club and heard someone sing the song that walter sang unaccompanied and drift up a tone after five minutes, i would be happy enough
in fact i would prefer it to some of the shuffling through bits of paper to hear unlearned third rate copies of pop songs. Walter learned his songs and loved singing them he was not a trainedopera singer but he had respect for his material and did his best to do justice to the songs in front of an audience even though he had to be gently persuaded to sing out in front of audiences.
unlike harry cox or sam larner , i understand walter preferred to sing his songs at home for his own pkeasure. i find your postings a disgrace and an illustration of your ignorance of source singers.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:16 AM

I am just thinking about whether it is right to discuss stuff like people being taken into care. Given the objections made to a friend and neighbour of WP telling us what he asked her to make for his tea? But of course permission would have been sought for this public disclosure?

@ Al

A post of mine seems to have been deleted.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM

"I am just thinking about whether it is right to discuss stuff like people being taken into care."
Bloody nonsense in the light of the fact that many Traveller children are taken into care because the state will not allow Travellers the rights to bring their children up with electricity running water and sanitation
Evictions of Travellers from 'illegal' sites, lading to them having nowhere else to go commonly lead to parents forced into emergency accommodation and their children taken into care
In Mary's case, the powers that be decided that a lone blind woman on the road was an unfit mother (despite the fact that the Travelling community is such that it would have rallied in support of someone in her position)
Some of course, would love to be able to sweep this inhumanity under the carpet rather than come to terms with the ethnic cleansing of Travellers that is systematically taking place today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:38 AM

Jim, you're doing it again! Don't rise to her bait!


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:50 AM

"Pat and I recorded this from blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney in the 1970s"

And thanks for linking that magnificent performance, Jim - though I had heard it before. Like Nick, I think Lankum do it justice, and you might be surprised how far it has spread from that one recording. I've heard several US performers (including the Foghorn String Band of all people) sing it, possibly inspired by Cathy Jordan, who has taught it at Appalachian summer schools. Peta Webb and Ken Hall do a really nice harmony version, and just last week I heard Sam Baxter, a very talented 20-year-old singer and musician here in Glossop, finish his support set to Martin Carthy with it. The interesting thing is that none of those people use any instrumental accompaniment, and all sing it in pretty much the same free timing as Mary Delaney. It doesn't seem to have been 'folk-revival-processed'!


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:51 AM

This is getting confusing for non combatants....Walter Pardon's tea, and Irish traveller children...

Its a bit like that quiz show, Only Connect...spot the connection..

I'll choose the horned viper next...


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: r.padgett
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 06:11 AM

Re-Lankum and Radie Peat.(hope that's spelt correctly) I rather like her singing. It's got that hard traditional edge which you mainly get from Irish singers.

Yes I do admire Radie's singing voice too

Ray


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 06:42 AM

"Re-Lankum and Radie Peat.(hope that's spelt correctly) I rather like her singing. It's got that hard traditional edge which you mainly get from Irish singers."

I like Lisa O'Neill as well.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 09:41 AM

"Jim, you're doing it again! Don't rise to her bait!"
Not really John - I never miss the opportunity to put the Travellers case - they have far too few enough advocates on their behalf
In a way, it's perfectly on topic - a Traveller singer using her song to display her feelings about what life has doled up for her - isn't that what all folk-songs are about !!   
"Re-Lankum and Radie Peat."
Sorry - of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world..... Lankum's version must be by far the worst - a four times as long as it needs to be dirge
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 01:28 PM

"Lankum's version must be by far the worst - a four times as long as it needs to be dirge"

A matter of opinion, but she can bloody well sing!


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:28 PM

Perhaps the point I made could have been clearer.

It is perfectly possible to discuss questions relating to prejudice against Travellers without disclosing private information relating to the family of one person who was acting as an informant to a song collector.

Doing this strikes me as unprofessional in the extreme. It seems particularly inappropriate when the person making the disclosure has, in another context, complained at length over a number of posts about somebody's favourite meal being discussed on the grounds that this was a personal matter.

And responding to this is not a question of rising to a person's bait. Moreover, if people on this thread do not see that this is a real and important ethical issue, leave alone on relating to song collectors in general getting the trust of communities they deal with, then as far as I am concerned, they are the ones who need to think again, rather than engaging in knee-jerk defences of the culprit.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:32 PM

"rather than engaging in knee-jerk defences of the culprit"

Sorry, I missed this. Who's being knee-jerk defending you?


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:35 PM

I believe that the moderators should delete the offending post and all those that follow after it. Unless Jim can demonstrate that he had the family's permission to disclose that information online to the whole world.
    You're working hard to cause trouble, Pseudonymous. We assume that Jim had the family's permission. He worked for years to collect this information. If he didn't have permission, it's up to the family to say so and not any of your business. If you read a book, you do not have the right to demand that the author prove permission for every bit of information that is published. It's up to the owner of the information to demand proof.
    Now, return to the discussion and stop trying to play "gotcha."
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:54 PM

"Unless Jim can demonstrate that he had the family's permission "
Stop being a destructive influence by making ludicrous suggestions
Do you deny taking Trailer children into care publicly - without permission from their parents is now commonplace and regularly covered oin the press Are you suggsting this should be secretive

THERE YOU GO


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:55 PM

AND AGAIN

Mad as a bag of froga
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:51 PM

While we're on that subject, try talking to Trish Nolan (John Reilly's niece) who had her young life destroyed by such a kidnap. Then you might like to listen to the song she wrote on the subject.
I love the way the likes of Pseud reckon they know so much about Travellers when they know sod all.
My wife was taken into a nunnery when she was a child for the crime of being a Gypsy. No Christmas, no Birthdays, no children to play with, desperate fear of the mother superior behind her red curtain. It resulted in a complete nervous breakdown by the age of eight. When she was rescued by her family and taken off in a wagon to Topcliffe fair, it took her months to speak a single word. Eventually her uncle Charlie and her Grand mother Nora coaxed her back to life. When she went to school for the first time, she was beaten, tied to a lamp post and pissed on by children and so called adults as well, for being a Gypsy.
Thank you Jim for mentioning some thing that is close to my heart.
When we lived in static Trailers, the abuse started on my Grandchildren who were spat at. The two of them were in a pram at the time. They just go for the easy target, like all racists do, and they reckon it's Gypsies who steal children!
Jim has been around Travellers, so have I for half my lifetime.
If you want to discuss Travellers songs go right ahead, but please do not sit behind your computer making comments about how we should behave, what is or is not professional when it comes to a relationship with Travellers. Especially when you have no first hand knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 06:23 PM

Well said Nick (and Jim)


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:19 AM

Can I just add a story regarding Mary to this - it's relevant because it concerns Mary's father Terry (nicknamed 'Sue' - a reference to the song, 'A Boy Named Sue')
Mary says, was her inspiration as a singer (she always referred to her traditional songs as "my daddies songs" (though, I believe, she was talking about the type of song, rather than the actual songs she knew)
We met him on several occasions; he was a knd, friendly man but an extremely heavy drinker - he could only remember around half a dozen fragments) - we eventually found why he took to the drink
Mary had a sister who was also blind - a family thing obviously
The family managed to raise enough support and money to have one of the two sisters tested and treated - Mary's sister was chosen
It was found that her condition was possibly treatable and a doctor carried out a corrective operation
Mary's father was at the hospital when the bandages were removed, a 'friendly' priest accompanied her
The bandages were removed and her sister had regained some of her sight - which shortly faded again, never to return
Terry, extremely, upset, told the priest what had transpired and was asked "did you thank God for her recovery ?"
When he replied that he had been too excited, he was told, "That's why God's gift was taken from her again"
From then on, Terry's life disintegrated - he blamed himself for his daughter's blindness and was never the same again
It is cruelty and inhumanity such as this that have helped form my own somewhat jaundiced view of the Church and authority, I confess
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hh3MlGBAbg pseud what do you think of this. bob lewis


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:46 AM

@ Nick Dow. It is obviously very wrong when people are subjected to racist behaviour. However, a) you know nothing about what I do or do not know about Travellers and b) nobody is denying that such things happen.

Generally

It strikes me as ironic that on the same web site I encounter some people who seem hell bent on underplaying the obvious racism of a man who had to be told that Black American under-achievement was due to racism not their race and also on slagging off one of the few writers to point out this racism.

As it happens I once posted a message in which I criticised negatives stereotypes of Travellers, giving examples of types of work that they did to show that the stereotyping was wrong. Jim Carroll took the example stereotype from my post and put it all over the place falsely claiming that these words represented my opinions.

I would be careful about the friends you choose. Because for me stuff like that gives anti-racism pro equality movements a bad name.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:55 AM

The bit that sticks in my mind about Mary Delaney from Jim Carroll is that she was lonely and depressed, and therefore delighted when he and Pat turned up to collect songs from her and reluctant to let them go.

Obviously a case where enlightened social services might have been able to do something, but failed.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 05:23 AM

"from Jim Carroll is that she was lonely and depressed, "
Again, undigested
Mary was generally and extremely gregarious throughout her time on the road
Not long after she got her younger children back she decided to try and have them educated - the only way she could possibly do this is to move into a flat, which the then sympathetic Hackney Labour Council (on the advice of Ken Livingstone) helped her to do
For the period she was in her depressingly empty flat, she became equally depressed - alone all day and unable even to watch television
During that perion we continued to visit and record her - it was during that time we made some of the best recordings of her
When she returned back on the road she became her old self
Please learn to read everything that is put up - not just what suits you to believe


I have no idea what you are talking about (other unnamed guest) - feel free to elucidate
No-one here has descrived what Travelers do - there's isn't space on Mudcat to list the various ways they earn their living
We have a ten minute long recording of Mikeen McCarthy listing the various jobs he has done during his then comparatively short life - the last photograph we took of him is him standing next to a beatifully restored bier he had just completed

A number of people have described them as idle, thieving refuse-leaving scavengers - they are the descriptions that stick ouut in my mind
I may be ultra-sensitive - but given how Travellers are treated by society, I THINK I MIGHT BE FORGIVEN THE OCCASIONAL LAPSE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 06:56 AM

"Mary was generally "
Should read Mary was extremely friendly
"descrived " - Described

Jim


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 07:05 AM

Good grief, Nick, that's a horrendous account. A timely post, though.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 08:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Utlar1vDI jeannie robertson, take that pseud


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 09:00 AM

My wife was taken into a nunnery when she was a child for the crime of being a Gypsy. No Christmas, no Birthdays, no children to play with, desperate fear of the mother superior behind her red curtain.

In Scotland at least, the NSPCC carried a lot of the responsibility for that. As far as they were concerned, no Gypsy could ever be a responsible parent, and they instigated kidnappings by the social services for decades.

They are now on a campaign to ban encryption on Facebook. Mainly they are being stooges for the security services, but I'm sure any thug with a bent copper friend would be delighted to have their victims' personal details accessible in return for a small favour.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM

The Republic of Ireland has come through great social changes. In progressive legislation, it could now be regarded as a model for its neighbour.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles From: GUEST,henryp Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM

I wonder if Seth Lakeman will find any musical record of the enormous social changes that have taken place in the Republic of Ireland. Look at the lifetime of Edna O'Brien.

She said, "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred." Her first book, The Country Girls, published in 1960, was added to the long list of books banned in Ireland under the Censorship of Publications Act, 1929. By 2012, Mary Robinson, the President of Ireland, recognised her as "one of the great creative writers of her generation".

Although she married and moved to London in 1954, her main subject remains Ireland. Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland has grown into a modern, liberal state.

P.S. There are still countries where girls desperately need protection. Now in her eighties, Edna O'Brien wrote her most recent book, Girl, after she travelled to Nigeria to speak to girls who had been kidnapped by jihadist group Boko Haram.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM

I've calmed down a bit now. I don't usually go off the deep end, however thank you for the kind posts. On a positive note, I've spent the afternoon coach lining a dray at the Blackpool Gypsy camp, laughing and cracking jokes and discussing Tyson Fury in glowing terms. (The family are related to him) and I've come home to a warm cottage with my lady wife happily within looking forward to the festival season.
It's not all bad!
Bob Lewis is wonderful by the way Dick.


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 20 - 02:51 PM

Jeannie used to Joke that it was strange to thing she was awarded an MBE and still be refused service in the local shops

Ireland has taken a massive leap forward - it's a shame that it has taken the disclosure of centuries of child-rape and the enslavery of 'fallen' women to get there
Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland has grown into a modern, liberal state.
Not sure of that, and I'm not sure I'm sorry
Sinn Feinn walked away with the recent election and the shenanigans of the 'liberal party' in trying to keep them out is only going to strengthen that victory
Interesting days
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 27 Feb 20 - 09:06 AM

"Because she was here before posting with a name and telling us that Clare farmers learned their songs from blues records
She had he membership withdrawn eventually"

More nonsense and smears from Jim Carroll. But what else do we expect?


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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Feb 20 - 12:21 PM

I'll tell you what else we might expect, and that is your good self Pseudo to take heed of Joe Offers' comment on February 25th.
I'm closing this for now. One troll posted, and everybody took the bait, plus it seems the subject of music doesn't matter if you have an opportunity to fight with one another. I expect Joe Offer will re-open it at some point.

For those of you who resisted the urge, thank you. -Mod


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Mudcat time: 24 May 5:59 PM EDT

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