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Source singers and their songs
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Subject: Source singers and their songs songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:32 AM Perhaps it might be possible to widen the former discussion which has been (reasonably, in my opinion) closed by discussing traditional singers and how (and why) they learned their songs The subject of mediating has featured far too much in the past - it is a term invented by academics based largely, as far as I can see, on the incorrect idea that traditional singers, at one point in their lives, ceased to learn and develop and their repertoires became fossilised into a finished article - that, of course, was not the case Traditional singers learned their songs because they valued them and enjoyed listening to them and singing them - they continued to add to their repertoires for as long as they had an audience to listen to them and for as long as they considered it worthwhile to do so. As Walter Pardon is one of our main sources of how the folk tradition worked, I'm happy to deal with what we learned from him, but we also got infomation from Travellers of how a living tradition continued operate and how it was affected by the use of printed ballad sheets used their traditional songs as a source of income - a direct connection with the broadside trad I hope we can continue this without a repetition of hammered-to-death arguments Can I suggest that in order that everyone might have their say, rather one person posting 7-8-9 consecutive posts, we might limit our input to one at a time (or maybe two, if something needs correcting) - flooding arguments smacks of filibustering to me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea Date: 19 Feb 20 - 05:04 AM My father,a Cork man, sang,almost as a matter of course, from dawn to dusk, whatever the day had for him.They were songs from his area and interestingly,I think in consideration, he sang no rebel songs, which is the staple of many in some Irish singing forums.But he never performed them to an audience.In the fifties,I readily loved them for their stories, tunes and the beauty of his light tenor voice.We had no TV and didn't listen to a radio much so his songs were the ones that went in and stayed in my head to this day.This was true osmosis.I never made any effort to learn them formally, they just were there. Only in the sixties, hearing singers like Ian Campbell on his Sunday television show, did I reconnect with my father's songs and realise that I had a repertoire that was so much more important than I had given it credit for. I think my point is that I didn't learn these songs from performance,I learnt them from two lives connected in habit and companionship and everyday living. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Observer Date: 19 Feb 20 - 06:12 AM My personal introduction was amazingly similar to Sean O'Shea's above, except in my case the singer I first heard was my mother. The part of Sean's post that really strikes home with me was why he loved the songs because they told stories and were set to lovely melodic tunes. Also like Sean the part of the country I was brought up in was rich in songs about it's industries, agriculture and it's history. Because I liked those songs growing up enabled me to recognise, appreciate and learn similar material from walks of life and places other than those of my childhood, and if I can quote Sean, "I didn't learn these songs from performance,I learnt them from two lives connected in habit and companionship and everyday living." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:08 AM In respect of song sources, do you believe that there is a chicken and egg situation with the Broadside ballad industry, and the song tradition, or do you subscribe to the belief that most traditional songs from the 19th century can be traced back to street literature, and the pleasure gardens, and did not previously exist in the working class repertoire. I realise that this is a monumentally large generalisation, but since we ware trying to keep things simple and on an even keel, I would be interested in an answer. My second point in respect of sources is of course the tunes. So many of our Folk song tunes seem to be from the 'Derry Down' 'Miller of Dee' 'Gregory Walker' 'Gee ho dobbin' 'Jack Pudding' and of course ' Villikins' tune families. This in no way lessens the quality of the songs, quite the opposite. With this in mind there is a view that there is a keenly defined traditional style of singing, which is arguably better preserved in Ireland. So back to chicken and egg. Which came first? The style or the tune? I don't expect anybody to wave a magic wand over these questions, but they have long interested me, and may be your good selves. I totally subscribe to Jim's parameters of behaviour as described above! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: r.padgett Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:39 AM I would hazard a guess that "early" songs were poems or ditties made up with the intention of entertaining, much like "jokes" ~ the use of tunes in my view helps to aid memory of the "performer" and also aids the understanding and retention of interest by the audience members The song topics would I believe be general relevant and known to the intended audience The performers will have had the need to be accepted by their intended audience, either on a "prestige" basis or maybe to make a living! Broadside ballads, the oral tradition and other influences like shanties and commissioned songs will all have had an input into the melting pot of "living" song material and radio will of course had a major contribution to popularisation of the "pop" songs of the day Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:54 AM "chicken and egg situation" As a working knowledge of our oral traditions dates back only as far as the beginning of the 20th century, this is and will remain an unsolvable enigma The fact that many of our folk songs appeared in print proves nothing - songs like 'The Bramble Briar' date as least as far back as the mid-1300 when Boccacio used it in his 'Decameron' - Travellers were still singing it in the 1970s as 'The Constant Farmer's Son' In the 1970s, Iain Russell collected a song entitled 'The Pear Tree' from Frank Hinchliff - 1484 - Chaucer used the same plot in his 'Merchant's Tale' in the 1340s There are many examples of songs and ballads appearing in different forms over the centuries - even millennia - the ballad, Hind Horn' shares it's plot with the account of Odysseus returning from The Trojan Wars to find that his wife was being married off to a rival lord 'Get Up and Bar the Door' appeared as a tale in Ancient India and even earlier, in ancient Egypt, in a tale which describes two tomb robbers arguing about who should shut the door of the tomb they are robbing in case they are discovered by the Pharaoh's guards. That song was still being sung in early twentieth century Dorset as 'John Blunt' while at the same time, being told as a tale entitled 'The Silence Wager' in Rural West Kerry Given these time-lines, it is highly unlikely that many of out folk songs hadn't appeared at some time or another long, long before universal literacy was even a twinkle in the eye The broadside really were 'the new kid on the block' compared to many of our folk songs - they only put in an appearance in a major way when our oral traditions were in decline - and they helped accelerate that process, if anything I was delighted to see both Sean's and Observer's postings - Ireland has produced indisputable proof of the ability of the rural poor to produce many hundreds of songs on every subject under the sun, particularly since the Famine, but almost certainty well before As with most peoples, love is the main theme - in Ireland, love of home (referred to as 'A sense of place') being a close second and the struggle for Independence taking 'The Bronze' Every County in Ireland, North and South, churned songs out describing events and aspirations, those in The South and West probably being the most dominant You can here many of these on the Clare County website, such as this on describing the notorious FANORE SCHOOL INCIDENT in 1914 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:55 AM I feel that Ray is right. WP believed that his family had learned their songs from broadsheet ballads. But he also learned some of his from records, some in the army, and he used texts and ballad sheets to make his own versions of songs which he only remembered parts of. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:12 AM "WP believed that his family had learned their songs from broadsheet ballads. " Walter simply didn't know and said so to the tape recorder He never saw a broadside ballad himself and there were none in his collection of papers and books Walter's family were hoarders who seldom threw anything out, certainly nothing relating to his family's singing He had family documents going back to the middle of the 19th century - not a broadside among them Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: r.padgett Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:46 AM "In the 1970s, Iain Russell collected a song entitled 'The Pear Tree' from Frank Hinchliff" above ~ had also been collected by Mike Yates, Rauiridh and Alvina Grieg 1976 per The English Folksinger ~ Collectors had been working from Leeds University LAVA I understand at the time Ray seems that it was also "known" in Scotland and I can only surmise that the song had "fetched" up from itinerant navvies working on reservoirs or dams in the Sheffield area ~ Frank was a farmer and had protected employment rights during the war, as did miners ~ so free time in the pub maybe on a Friday or Saturday nights for a sing! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 19 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM Surprised by that Jim. I remember old Bill House talking about the ballad singer who used to come round the Bridport are crying ' All the songs of the day!' and that would have been just before the first world war. He talked about families keeping the song sheets for ages. Could it be that Walters repertoire was so large and complete he needed no prompting from street literature. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: r.padgett Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:05 AM Ian Russell had quite a lot of work in the early 1970s collecting and recording in Sheffield ~ including his work on the Sheffield Carols ~ still popular around the area and beyond into Derbyshire adjacent to Sheffield Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:43 AM The ballad singers were very late on the scene compare to how long many of these songs have been around Up to comparatively recently it was always believed that the repertoire was made up of a mixture of those songs composed by the people themselves and those brought in on ballad sheets, which has always made sense to me What the proportions were was totally unknown and probably unknowable now) That fact that widespread literacy in rural areas did not begin to take hold until the mid-1830s and even then, poorly lit housing made reading highly unlikely as a leisure pursuit suggested that country singers were still relying heavily on the oral traditions for their songs Travellers, of couse, who featured strongly in the passign on of songs and ballads still haven't fully accepted literacy as essential to their culture Can I clear up this 'Walter' mess Walter sang only one song at home sessions - Dark Eyed Sailor As an only child he was taken under the wing of the two surviving singers (uncles) in the family who sang to him constantly - they were reluctant to pass on their songs on to anybody else Walter heard the singing at home gatherings (birthdays and Christmas) but he didn't remember the Harvest Suppers prior to that - there was no pub singing in the area as far as he knew, but he did hear his Uncle Billy singing 'Generals All' after an Agricultural Workers Union meeting in North Walsham (through a window) He began to take an interest in the songs and was disturbed when his cousins moved away from the family repertoire and took op the 'modern stuff'. When war broke out, he was recruited for the army (he was exempted from fighting abroad because of his health) - when he returned in 1946 his uncles has died, so he systematically began writing down what he could remember of their songs by 'pestering' family members He memorised the tunes on his melodeon He got most of the songs (he thought) and after he was 'discovered' he sought help with the few he'd fail to get full versions of The only 'new song' he learned was 'Topman and the Afterguard' which he learned in the Army - he regarded that version as 'obscene' so he sought out another text He never leaned a single song in full from a book - everything he sang later was part of the family repertoire (the only exception being the Thomas Hardy poem 'Trampwoman's Tragedy' which he made a tune for not long before he died - we are the only ones he ever sang that to As far as Dark Arches is concerned - he gave what he knew to us and we helped him fill in the rest with the assistance of Mike Yates The fragment is in our collection as "a fragment' we recorded it once and we have archived that with the full details of how it became a full song (we asked that he pass on that information to whoever else he sang it to) As far as I know, it never appeared on any of his albums - Mike Yates or Bill Leader certainly never issued it For those interested - this is Walter's repertoire (sorry about taking up so much space Jim Carroll Walter Pardon’s Repertoire All Among The Barley All For Me Grog All Jolly Fellows (f rag) All The Little Chickens In The Garden As I Wandered By The Brookside Balaclava Bald Headed End Of The Broom Banks of Allan Water Banks of The Clyde Bells Are Ringing For Sarah Best Old Wife In The World Black Eyed Susan Black Velvet Band Blow The Winds I O Bluebell Boat Is Going Over Bold Fisherman Bold Princess Royal Bonny Bunch of Roses Boys in Navy Blue Bright Golden Store British Man Of War Broomfield Hill Burningham Boys Bush of Australia Butter And Cheese And All Caroline And Her Young Sailor Bold Carrion Crow Cock-a-doodle-doo Coltishall School Treat Come And See The Kaiser (Harland Road) Come Little Leaves Come To Me In Canada Country Life Cuckoo Cunning Cobbler Cupid The Ploughboy Dandy Man Dark Arches Dark Eyed Sailor Darling Dinah Kitty Anna Maria Derby Ram Deserter Devil and the Farmer's Wife Dinah Kitty Anna Maria Dolly Varden Hat Down By The Abbey Ruins Faithful Sailor Boy Farmer's Boy Farmyard Song Female Drummer Footprints in the Snow Game Of Dominoes Generals All Genevive Give My Love To Nancy Goodbye King (election parody to Dolly Grey) Gooseberry Tree Gorgonzola Cheese Grace Darling Grandfather's Clock Green Bushes Green Grows The Laurels Handsome Cabin Boy Hanging on the Old Barbed Wire Has Anybody Seen Our Cat Help One Another Boys Hockey Tar Tarry Tee Hold The Fort Home Boys Home Hungry Army Huntsman Husband Taming I Don't Care If There's A Girl There I Wish I Wish I Wish They'd Do It Now I’ll Hang My Harp on a Willow Tree I’z Yorkshire Though In London If I Were A Blackbird If I Were A Policeman If Those Lips Could Only Speak If Those Lips Could Only Speak (parody) I'll Be All smiles Tonight I'll Come Back To you My Sweetheart I'll Have No Union (Farmer's boy Parody) I'll Walk Beside You I'm Bound To Emigrate To New Zealand I'm Yorkshire Though in London In Our Backyard Last Night In The Shade of The Old Apple Tree Irish Girl Irish Molly O It's For The Money It's Hard to Say Goodbye To Your Own Native Land Jack Hall Jack Tar On Shore Jackie Boy John Barleycorn John Reilly Jolly Waggoner Jones' Ale Just Down The Lane Kitty Come Come Kitty Wells Lawyer Little Ball of Yarn Long A'growing Lord Lovell Loss of The Ramilles Maid of Australia Maid of the Mill Marble Arch Men of Merry Merry England Mermaid Miller's Three Sons Miner's Dream of Home Miner's Return Mistletoe Bough More Trouble In My native Land Mother Machree My Little Blue Apron To Fill (The Gleaner) My Old master Told Me Nancy Fancied a Soldier Naughty Jemima Brown Not For Joe Oak And The Ash Oh Joe Do Let Me Go Oh Joe The Boat is Going Over Old Armchair Old Brown's Daughter Old Kentucky Home Old Miser Old Mother Pittle Pots Old Rustic Bridge By The Mill Old Woman of Yorkshire One Cold Morning In December Parson And The Clerk Parson Brown Peggy Band (John Clare's version with Walter's tune) Peggy Band (trad. version) Poacher's Fate Polly Vaughan Poor Little Joe Poor Roger Is Dead Poor Smuggler's Boy Pretty Ploughboy Put A Bit of Powder On It Father Raggle Taggle Gypsies Rakish Young Fellow Rambling Blade Ratcliff Highway Ring The Bell Watchman Rise Sally Walker Rosin The Beau Sailor Cut Down In His Prime Saucy Sailor Boy Seventeen Come Sunday Shamrock Rose And Thistle She Stood In A Working Man's Dwelling Ship Sailed Away From Old England Ship That Never Returned Ship To Old England Came Silver Threads Among The Gold Skipper and His Boy Slave Driving Farmers So I Will Soldier Boy (Butcher Boy) Somebody Had To fetch The Flag Sons Of Labour Spanish Cavalier Stars and Stripes and John Bull Forever Steam Arm Stick To Your Mother Son Strawberry Fair Susan The Pride Of Kildare Suvlah Bay Sweet Belle Mahone Ten Thousand Miles Away That's How You Get Served When You're Old There's a Long-long Trail They All Do It They Don't Grow On Tops of Trees Thirty Nine/Forty Five Star Thornaby Woods Topman And The Afterguard Trampwoman's Tragedy Trees They Do Grow High Turning The Mangle Two Jolly Butchers Two Little Girls in Blue Two Lovely Black Eyes Up To The Rigs Van Dieman's Land Wake Up John Wanderer Wearing Of The Green We're All Sawing We've Both been Here Before Wheel Your Perambulator When Father Joined The Territorials When London's Asleep When The Cocks begin To Crow When The Fields Are White With Daisies When You Wake Up In The Morning While Shepherds Watched Will You Come Back To Bombay Wind Blows High Wing Wang Waddles Woman's Work Is Never Done Won't You Come To Me In Canada Woodman Spare That Tree Would You Like To Know How Bread Is Made Wreck of The Lifeboat Write Me A Letter From Home You Wore A Tunic |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Observer Date: 19 Feb 20 - 11:46 AM love of home (referred to as 'A sense of place') Very well put, these represent the majority of the songs, I first heard as a child, only one of which was written from the perspective of an exile, all the others from the perspective of those who loved the place so much they'd never even think of leaving it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:28 PM Would be interested ot know whih part of Ireland you come from Observer I'm making a list of the Counties where these locally based songs were found We've put together 80-odd from West Clare which were almost certainly made in the first half of the 20th century Jim |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Julia L Date: 19 Feb 20 - 12:30 PM HI folks- I'm feeling like this thread is a rather narrow "Celtic /Anglo" focus.. perhaps that should be designated in the title? Does anyone have information about how songs are transmitted in other cultures? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:04 PM Determining origins, or source, is a tricky business. "The carnival is over", for instance, has the same tune as "Steka Rasin". Does anyone know whether the latter was original or based on something earlier still? Once we go back beyond the written word, who can really say what the source is? Worse still. Stories of unrequited love or heroism or mysterious events etc. are repeated over and over again through historu. Who knows what the source of such a story or song is? To enable a meaningful discussion of 'source' someone needs to set a limit of how far back we go. In my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:21 PM Hi Julia, you have made an interesting point. It may be worth opening a separate thread on the subject. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:25 PM That is an amazing repertoire and thanks for listing it Jim. I wonder how many singers with similar repertoires had only a sample of their songs collected. Henry Burstow of course springs to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GeoffLawes Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:32 PM There are many source recordings in this Mudcat thread https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=166144 /mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=166144 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 19 Feb 20 - 01:47 PM Regarding the question of whether Pardon believed his grandfather learned his songs from broadsheets: Here are some extracts from a piece complied from transcripts interviews with WP from the MUSTRAD web site: "My grandfather got the songs from broadsheets, apparently; that's how they were brought round, so they always told me." "My uncle Billy, he said he remembered when a man-o'-war sunk off Ireland and someone composed a song about it, and two men come along here with one of those broadsheets and sung the song over to my grandfather. I don't know if he bought it, but I was told the words and music was ruled on it, and they charged a penny. That was how they got them into the villages. I asked Uncle Billy how it was that my grandfather managed to learn a hundred, 'cause that was very seldom he went out of the village - perhaps one day in the year to Norwich, or occasionally to North Walsham, and he said that was how they got round: by broadsheets. None of 'em got saved in the family; there was only one old song that I ever did find. The Transports [Van Diemen's Land] - wrote out by hand. I never dial see any of the broadsheets; they must have got destroyed somehow or other. A lot of the things that were my grandfather's have survived in this house though - that chair, and the grandfather clock, and that old Queen Anne table … " It may be true that Jim Carroll for whatever reason did not record WP saying this, but for me it is clear that other people did. And I think it reasonable to believe that this is what WP believed to be the truth. I'm assuming Jim has never checked this material out? The MUSTRAD site says that the quotations mainly come from interviews with Karl Dallas and Peter Bellamy. It also tells you where those interviews were published. I think some of them are available to listen to on the British Museum web site. http://mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm#cred Thank you for reading |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:02 PM "HI folks- I'm feeling like this thread is a rather narrow "Celtic /Anglo" focus.." Basically the whole discussion is based on comments made by Dave Harker, which were aimed at English song Julia American, Australian and N.Z. former colonies would have been very much British based repertoires Beyond that I personally know little, apart from the bits I picked up an International Ballad Conferences, which wery largely about the material rather than their origins and distribution - I would love to learn more My father was a prisoner of war in Spain in the 1930s and he came back singing songs that were being made about that conflict, largely by soldiers - I sing a couple of them (in private) for my own pleasure "someone needs to set a limit of how far back we go" As 'The Wedding of the the Frog and the Mouse' was mentioned in the 1500s as being "sung by shepherds" and was still being collected from source singers in the 20th century and Barbara Allen was an "old Scottish" lady in 1666, it's hard to draw a line on where to start Some songs can be aged by their subject matter, but many have universal and timeless themes, and can't be Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 02:15 PM "so they always told me." Walter said what he said to used about broadsides - he didn't know one way or another Produce your source and we can discuss it - if yo can dismiss what I say, I have no problem in dismissing what you do I think we have had enough of this Go listen to what Walter said in the British Library - - otherwise you will have to wait to see if the BL puts it on line You need to remember that Walter was remembering and correcting things he had remembered incorrectly all the time He was plunged into the limelight and confronted with questions and tape-recorders within a year of being discovered - we wre still getting fresh and corrected information from hi up to a year before he died Karl Dallas was among the very first to interview him "Henry Burstow of course springs to mind." Phil Tanner was saidf to have had 80 odd songs (according to Alvah Liddell) By the time he was recorded there weren't enough to fill a full LP Jim |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:18 PM I had no idea. The Gower is fairly close to Somerset geographically, and with some obvious exceptions Phil Tanners repertoire is echoed in some of the numerous Somerset singers visited by Sharp. I suppose that is some consolation. Tanners singing was a master class in traditional style in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 19 Feb 20 - 03:22 PM Sorry I meant to ask, is that Alvar Liddell BBC broadcaster? |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 19 Feb 20 - 06:59 PM With regard to the extensive repertoire of songs, of all kinds, listed above, well, "Genevieve", "My Grandfather's Clock", "Hanging on the old barbed wire", "If those lips could only speak", "I'll walk beside you", "Mother Machree", "Irish Molly-O", "Miner's dream of home", "Old Kentucky Home", "Old Rustic Bridge", "Silver threads among the gold", "There's a long, long trail a-winding", "Two lovely Black Eyes", "The wearing of the Green", "when the fields are white with daisies", "Woodman, spare that tree", ?"While Shepherds watched [their flocks by night]?", were certainly "modern stuff" not that long ago, and most of these are simply popular songs from the Music Halls; often a date of publication, author, composer and singers particularly associated with their performance can readily be found. Did the singer distinguish at all between these songs/that kind of song and those which had an earlier origin? |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Feb 20 - 07:27 PM "Did the singer distinguish at all between these songs/that kind of song and those which had an earlier origin" Sorry Blackie - you're obviously a newcomer here Yes - he most certainly did, and spoke at length about the differences The Irish Travellers were the same There is every suggestion that many source singers did I've quoted this many times, but this differentiation was summed up perfectly by Jeam Richie describing when she was recording in Ireland in the early fifties: From an interview repeated a few years ago in The Irish Times "“I used the song Barbara Allen as a collecting tool because everybody knew it. When I would ask people to sing me some of their old songs they would sometimes sing ‘Does Your Mother Come from Ireland?’ or something about shamrocks. But if I asked if they knew Barbara Allen, immediately they knew exactly what kind of song I was talking about and they would bring out beautiful old things that matched mine, and were variants of the songs I knew in Kentucky. It was like coming home.” "I meant to ask, is that Alvar Liddell BBC broadcaster?" Yes, it was Nick - he befriended Phil Tanner some time before he was recorded" There is an unconfirmed story that Tanner was recorded by a 'Dialect Society' group who were studying the local dialects in South Wales and they recorded most of his songs, but the recordings were never made available because the songs never fell within the remit of The Society I know for sure that Linguaphone recorded both Welsh and Scots language traditional songs on cylinder for their projects and that copies of those are housed at C# House - we have copies of them - poor condition, but interesting Jim |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 19 Feb 20 - 08:21 PM Thanks, Jim; I've not only read that quotation before, but have used something similar as "shorthand" in the same way. By the way, while some people might find "Blackie" a mite problematical nowadays, I'm quite all right with it, and indeed prefer my old Service nick-name based on a long posting somewhere which left me very tanned; "Darkie". |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 20 Feb 20 - 02:51 AM i have heard composed songs sung her in county cork some going back to the 1950s some earlier to the 1930s about local events etc |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Feb 20 - 02:56 AM " "Darkie". Didn't men any offence - of course - I've heard Travellers use your chosen name the same way - got into the habit Are you the piper ? Jim |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 20 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM Not a piper, just "An SeanFhearr Caol Liath" now. But ABCD has been convenient. By the way, with regard to "something about shamrocks" (and no doubt songs liberally sprinkled with the conventional words and mis-spellings to indicate "Irish") nevertheless, as a singer & collector (J.C.) once said, there's often something worthwhile in those popular pieces once so admired and now widely discountenanced; Andrew Cherry's "The Dear Little Shamrock" is, in my view, one such. ABCD |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Feb 20 - 05:31 AM Very true, of course When we started collecting in Clare I used to hold my head in my hands each time we were given 'yet another bleedin' song about mammy and home" - until I realised that we had not met a single family who hadn't lot a relative to 'the emigration' Up to 'The Tiger', there was hardly a young person between the ages of eighteen and thirty living in the Miltown Malbay area - better now, but not much My own family were Famine Refugees, but you tend not to relate that sort of thing to the songs until you put them in context Jim ONE of my FAVOURITES |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Guest Date: 20 Feb 20 - 06:35 AM Posted on the wrong thread: Two of my favourite analyses of a classic ballad by two masters of their trades: Edward, (Child 13) What Put The Blood, 'Pop’s ‘ Johnny Connors, Wexford Traveller. "I heard this song from my grandmother’s uncle again, Johnny Murphy, the brother of Mick Murphy, he’d dead now, both men is dead, they were very old. My grandmother; well, she’s still living, she’s 106 – Seems the Murphys, the Gommers, you know, they were tradition, they were poets, undiscovered poets, you know. J. C. Where did he get it, d’you know? P. J. God knows where he got it, probably from his great – great grandfather But the song is anyway… I’d say the song, myself, goes back to.... depicts Cain and Abel in the Bible and where Our Lord said to Cain.... I think this is where the Travellers Curse come from too, because Our Lord says to Cain, “Cain”, says Our Lord, “you have slain your brother, and for this”, says Our Lord, says he, “and for this, be a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth”. “Not so Lord” says he, “this punishment is too severe, and whoever finds me”, says he, “will slay me, “says he “or harass me”. “Not so”, says Our Lord, says he, “whoever finds Cain and punishes or slains (sic) Cain, I will punish them sevenfold”. And I think this is where the Travellers curse come from. Anyway, the song depicts this, this er.... I call it Cain and Abel anyway; there never was a name for the song, but that what I call it, you know, the depiction of Cain and Abel.” Dowdled verse What put the blood on your hands my son? Son, come tell it unto me.. It’s the blood ofa hare I killed the other day, And I killed most manfully- ee. And killed most manfully, idle-ee That’s too red for the blood of a hare. Son… etc Well, it’s the blood of me youngest brother that I killed the other day And I killed most brutefully - ee. And I killed…. Etc What will you do when the Lord comes around? I will put my foot on board of a ship And I'll sail to a foreign country - ee. What will you do with your two fine horses? I will take the collars all of their necks And they’ll plough no more for me – ee What will you do with your fine hounds? Well I will strip then straps all off their necks And they’ll run no more for me- ee What will you do with your two fine children? I’ll give one to me mammy and the other to me daddy Sure, they’ll keep them company-ee What will you do with your fine house and land? I will it here to the birds all in the air And they’ll breed in that for they-ee What will you do with your beautiful wife? Sure she will put her foot on board of a ship And she’ll sail along with me-ee Dowdled line See ‘12c Henry My Son Pop's Johnny Connors’ Edward, Edward. A Scottish Ballad” (Child 13) Bertrand Harrison Bronson "Edward” has justly held a place of honor among ballads ever since it was first given to the world, in 1765, in the Reliques of Thomas Percy. For many persons, indeed, it has come to typify the whole category, so that “Edward” is what they think of when the popular ballad is mentioned. Ballad-lovers who wish to win converts are likely to point first to “Edward” as exemplifying more strikingly than any other piece the peculiar merits of this kind of literature. No class in public speaking neglects it; no concert baritone but includes it in his repertory. All this is sufficient testimony to its universal appeal. Its right to these laurels was confirmed by the great master, Francis James Child. “Edward,” he said, “is not only unimpeachable, but has ever been regarded as one of the noblest and most sterling specimens of the popular ballad |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 20 Feb 20 - 07:40 AM Yes, indeed, there are always some lines that "strike home". Just looking at the rhyming and the idiom, I wonder in the second verse if a slight change might advantageously be made: "The kitchen it was full of them, and one by one the whole of them..." would be idiomatically acceptable in some parts of Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 20 Feb 20 - 07:41 AM Sorry, "kitchen here was full..." ABCD |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 21 Feb 20 - 01:04 PM 1 The list of songs in Pardon's repertoire appears to be missing "The Yellow Rose of Texas". Regarding the views of Bronson, stated above to be a master of analysis: I checked what he said about this song. Two separate sources have suggested that he thought it had a 'literary' origin. a) The Fresnostate.edu ballad site gives a reference for this: BronsonBAS: Bertrand Harris Bronson, The Ballad as Song (essays on ballads), University of California Press, 1969 May I quote from their discussion? "Bertrand Bronson, in his essay "Edward, Edward, A Scottish Ballad" (reprinted in BronsonBAS, pp. 1-17) makes the point that this song is often included in literary anthologies as one of the best examples of the ballad art. But, he observes, it is always the Percy version which gets printed -- and this has several problems. First is a point raised by Motherwell: how does a ballad of probably-Scottish origin come to have a hero named "Edward" (as in "Edward I, the Hammer of the Scots")? (p. 3 in the essay as printed in BronsonBAS). Second, the ending in which Edward concludes by accusing his mother of plotting the whole thing occurs only in the Percy version, and that this produces the absurd situation of the mother and son both knowing what is going on and hiding it -- it's Hamlet and Claudius hunting each other, not a genuine murder mystery (this is in the "footnote" on pp. 15-17). And none of the other versions show this feature. And the Percy version cannot be traced back beyond Percy's source Lord Hailes. Bronson concludes, as Archer Taylor also concluded, that the Percy text, in addition to Percy's usual practice of archaizing and fouling up the spelling, has been rewritten to be more dramatic. Bronson's argument strikes me as very compelling, particularly since we know that Percy was often guilty of such things." b) David C Fowler, in a book kindly recommended to me by Steve Gardham, says that Bronson 'fully demonstrated the literary origin of this song' citing a different Bronson piece, 'Edward, Edward, A Scottish Ballad' SFQ lV (1940) 1-13, 159-61 |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Feb 20 - 02:53 PM His name was Walter - it seems ill manners as pat of establishioing superiority over those being talked about has caught on big time with those who never leave their desks- is it really that difficult to be polite to dead singers whose singing you though "embarrassing" ? Grow up "The Yellow Rose of Texas"." He didn't sing it, as far as I am aware - we didn't record it, I'm pretty sure Mike Yates didn't - neither did Karl Dallas or Bill Leader I've no idea who did "Edward" I had to recommended Fowler to Steve several times before he went out and bought it, by the way - he had never head of it If you care to read what Fowler Bronson wrote ('Edward, Edward, a Scottish Ballad' - The Ballad as Song, B H Bronson, Uni. of Cal, Press 1969) he was writing of the literary nature of the version that appeared in Percy, which may have been the first published, but there is no evidence at all to show that this is the first version The story is common in Legend and Lore - Cain and Abel (as 'Pop's' Johnny pointed out, Romulus and Remus (3rd century BC), Baldur (Norse Mythology), The Mahabharata' ..... take your pick It even got a place in the dictionary, so popular was it 'Fratricide' It is beyond belief to think that the story hasn't appeared in orally transmitted song many, many times in the interim period A little common sense goes a long way in these things Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,alan Whittle Date: 22 Feb 20 - 06:08 PM Very interesting seeing all Walter's repertoire. if you sing all your life, you certainly get through a lot of material. I often get asked how I know and remember so many songs. And yet some people need a folder with the words in for songs of only two verses that they have been singing for many years. still....wouldn't do for us to be all the same. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 23 Feb 20 - 01:48 AM 'Embarrassingly bad' was indeed the phrase I used to describe 'The Bush of Australia'. Pardon was fond of songs like this: in what I think is his earliest interview he focusses on this and other examples including Cock a Doodle Doo. The interviewers ask him what the women thought when songs like this were sung and he says they never paid any attention to it. The Bush of Australia is about a white colonialist leaving a dark-skinned native alone with his baby. It seems to me some kind of fantasy which at best highlights the irresponsible attitudes of the colonialist, though Pardon (and his interlocutors) seems just to have relished these. Some versions omit the reference to the dark skin of the woman; for whatever reason Pardon's version does not. I note that you refer to Bronson as Bronson. Can you not show some courtesy to this scholar? And this is just me, but I don't think you are in a position to give people on Mudcat lessons in manners. More or less your first post to the Harker thread called the people on it 'poodles' and contained the f*** word. NB This post has since been deleted, but I think the one where you followed it up with 'nodding dogs' is still there. May I remind you that it was you yourself who quoted from Bronson. If you are now claiming that he was referring to a different version, then you have simply undermined your own 'analysis' of this song. You also have to convince me that both Fowler and the Fresno web site are wrong about Bronson and you are correct and fully represent what he said. I know whose version my money is on. It is interesting that you follow Pops in assuming that the story is about fratricide: I am wondering what textual evidence there is for this in the various versions. Some commentators say it is the father he has killed; others state that it is either the father or the brother. Nobody is denying that stories of men killing their brothers crop up from time to time. I think it likely that such murders did take place relatively often, families being what they are, and that more than one story about such an event will have been written. Blithely asserting that all these stories can be linked together and regarded as a continuing tradition back through the centuries strikes me as wishful thinking, an example of 'mediation', perhaps? The account provided by your information is interesting, but I don't see that it should affect my perceptions of this question of the song's origins. That said, I don't suppose you are actually suggesting that source singers have any particular expertise in such matters? I'll leave it to you to follow up on The Yellow Rose of Texas. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 23 Feb 20 - 02:28 AM Al Whittle often talks good sense. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 20 - 03:20 AM please can you call him Walter or WalterPardon, that was his name. Walter preferred certain songs certainly,why should he not? not sure you have the right ones. I find your attitude to Walter hostile, if we met in public i might be inclined to adress you with anglo saxdon vernacular, but since we ae being watched by holy joe, could i ask you to desist |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Feb 20 - 04:31 AM "'Embarrassingly bad' was indeed the phrase I used to describe 'The Bush of Australia'." Not true - you described Walter's singing as "embarrassingly bad" - the fact that the only time you had heard him he was singing 'Bush of Australia" was immaterial You qualified your disdain for his singing by suggesting there has been a deliberate 'folkie plot' to hype him to the status of 'traditional source singer' Your ignorance of Walter's ability and position as highly respected and valued traditional singer is indicative of your total ignorance of the subject you have sought to dominate since your re-arrival on this forum The only knowledge you appeared to have of folksong is that you have hastily gathered up during these arguments That ignorance is demonstrated fully by your lamentably inaccurate analysis of the Song, 'The Bush of Australia' It is certainly not about "a white colonialist leaving a dark-skinned native alone with his baby." There is neither the mention of either a colonist or a baby in the song and the woman's colour is mentioned only as a description of her beauty - no racial implications are intended The song is typical of the many 'sexual encounter' songs that abound in our and most song and story traditions - nothing more complicated than that Your "colonist" could well have been a sailor or soldier (compare it with 'The Indian Lass), but he was far more likely to have been a transportee who eventually returned home. Research on the song by Bob Thomson traced the song to a 'returned transportee' settlement on the river Gaddar adjacent to Oxborough Hall in North Norfolk - its popularity in East Anglia bears out Bob (Professor Thomson's) findings - Bob was one of the best scholars on the broadsides I have known - he never suggested that's where the song originated Some people have done the work, even if you are not prepared to "It is interesting that you follow Pops in assuming that the story is about fratricide:" Of course it is about fratracide - what else is the killing of one brother by another about - that is the definition of the term - no assumption necessary If it was about the killing of a sister it would be sororicide - your mother, matricide or your father, patricide Sheesh..... There are no versions, as far as I know, that describe the killing of any of these (though I have yet to read what paels of wisdom Dave Harker may have blessed us with) 'Edward' is one of very many songs in the tradition about the killing of a family member (not 'from time to time') It uses an extremely common and powerful ballad-motif. 'Pop's' Johnny's use of 'Cain and Abel' as a perfect example of a singer creating a 'hook' into one of his/her songs - in my opinion, brilliant As for your opinion on source singers - see my comments above on your (lack of) knowledge of traditional singing as a genre Source singers were faced with the constant task of making sense of the songs they sang - that they may have as much, if not more knowledge of those songs than does a paper-pushing academic goes without saying While academics may read second hand of the situations described many of the singers come from backgrounds most affected by seduction, rape, violence, inequality, persecution, theft - even murder - the stuff that makes up our rich song tradition As far as repect for people - if you wish to criticise giant like Bronson, you need to know a little more than you have managed to scoop up recently from your quick dips into what's available on the internet - try reading what he and some of the others you have attempted to denigrate wrote in full Tha same goes for for Walter, who you dismissed as being a creation of a folkie plot, or "Showman", Bob Copper - read and take note of what they had to say You have constantly described mine and Pat's work as "unreliable" and now "meditated", yet it is not yet freely available for access and I know for a fact that you have never sought permission to use it from The British Library, The Irish Traditional Music Archive, University College Dublin... or any of the other places where it is housed in full or in part You haven't a clue how unreliable or otherwise our work is - your claim is made out of pure ill-informed spite The overwhelming information I have put up here is through extensive quotes by the singers themselves - it is not Pat and I you are describing as "unreliable" but the singers - nothing new there That you do so gives me and those others who have objected to your offensive behaviour every right criticise it "Yellow Rose of Texas" What on earth are you talking about ? - you received my answer in full - go read it You would have rejected it as "unreliable" and "meditated" anyway Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Feb 20 - 04:33 AM "Al Whittle often talks good sense." How ****** patronising Al and I have had our differences, but he is a level headed and dedicated performer who bends over backwards not to offend Learn from him Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:15 AM Walter was not an embarrasingly bad singer at any time |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:21 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKzcIE3M7To Walter . walter hold the tune fine ,this is not bad singing, psuedonymous you need to get your ears tested. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 20 - 05:26 AM As a professional singer , i look for certain things regardless of style or taste ,diction , walters diction is good holding a tune walter is good. this means regardless of style his singing is good.psuedonymous youclerly do not know what you are talking about |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:19 AM Well, since I am pushed, Walter tends to change key in the course of a song. This was discussed in a PhD on him I read, and I was glad to read that I wasn't the only one to have thought this. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:38 AM well no he does not change key in that song so you are wrong, never mind what you read use your ears |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 23 Feb 20 - 08:56 AM you said it was embarassingly bad, he does not change key on that song ,you do not know what you are talking about, you regurgitate things you have read elsewhere. his singing is clear his breathing good his dction is good and he holds the tune, whether the style is to your taste does not mean he is bad |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Feb 20 - 09:16 AM "Well, since I am pushed, Walter tends to change key in the course of a song." He most certainly did not - he held the tune perfectly in all his songs Like many/most unaccompanied singers, he occasionally rose in pitch throughout the song, but that was unnoticeable He made narrative and grammatical sense of the songs far more skillfully, no awkward gaps between phrases and lines - straightforward poetic storytelling His narrative delivery is immaculate - all the pauses where they should be, an intelligent use of punctuation.... no 'time to buy a pint length ' breaks' to make room for an intrusively showy display of guitar-playing.... Like most of his generation of singers, he sang in his own natural speaking tone - he interpreted the song rather than promoting his own singing, Would that more of our revival singers learned to do the same The fact that you have moved on from "I was talking about Maid of Australia" to making up faults about Walter's singinf is indicative that you are deliberately targeting one of England's best singers deliberately - why, I wonder !!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Feb 20 - 09:18 AM "He made narrative and grammatical sense of the songs far more skillfully, than most revival singers I have heard" Jim Carroll |
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