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Anachronistic Music in Movies
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,CupOfTea at work Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:15 PM Thought of this thread while listening to a recording of Bob Zentz elaborating on the mechanism of an Anglo concertina being like a harmonica, commenting on how popular concertinas were with sailors, so much so that it was shown in the historical series ROOTS 100-some years before it was invented. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Dave Hanson Date: 08 Mar 20 - 03:33 PM Just watched an old episode of the TV series ' Waking The Dead ' the tune ' Carrickfergus ' was played as background music throughout. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 08 Mar 20 - 04:30 AM I always get them mixed up! Robin |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: michaelr Date: 07 Mar 20 - 02:43 PM Black Belt CW - Mendelssohn? Michael Turner's Waltz is Mozart. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 07 Mar 20 - 02:25 PM I may be wrong, but I assume there is a lot of ‘product placement’ by entrepreneurial music agencies/publishers in films. The list of songs in the credits is usually so long that to have used each in their entirety would be longer than the film itself, with no space for any dialogue. Often only a snippet is used, or is lost behind dialogue or action sounds, so why do they bother including it at all? Is it to allow industry associates to share some of the money being made, or is just to flog contrived soundtrack compilations afterwards? In the past, film scores were produced by in-house studio musicians, but now many tend to be just vehicles for publishers to re-sell stuff from their back catalogue to a new audience. Bring back Max Stein, Ennio Morricone, and that guy who did a lot of Hitchcock’s films I say. Sorry about the thread creep.... |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Mar 20 - 09:31 AM Not sure when Gone with the Wind was written - about 1950? - but it was long after the civil war. So if you make a film of the book, there is an argument fir reproducing the 1860s as imagined by 1950s America, as you might do King Lear in Elizabethan clothes though it's set in the Dark Ages. An oddity about film music. Watching the credits at the end, there are always far more pieces listed than I remember hearing. Somehow most of it is buried in the background where I don't notice it but where the producer thinks it would contribute to the overall effect. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Mr Red Date: 07 Mar 20 - 08:58 AM And my reference to the Jane Austen Dancers, who I have seen in the flesh, was Playfordish. If I said pre-Regency would that describe it any better? Not visually - from what have seen and danced. Any more than dancing Roger of Coverley (aka Sir Roger de Coverley) or the Virginia Reel. Are they Playford, as defined by the English Dancing Master, or are they E-Ceilidh as defined by the ceilidhnauts I know and dance with 270 years later! I thnk it is safe to assume they danced some dances that purists would call Playford in the pre-Regency. Much as we do today, with the Waltz and the Valeta and Horses Branle. Jane was a single lass, daughter of a clergyman, she had to move in certain circles, or did I mean conservative? Gone with the Wind - Scarlet said "let dance the Virginia Reel" and what I saw was probably just that. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 06 Mar 20 - 11:56 AM As for as anachronism is concerned, even The Bard was guilty,... of this and many other anachronisms, but playwrights and stage directors etc. are totally unashamed, rightly so. The special problem with most genres of cinema (and TV) is that they claim a much higher degree of realism than they can deliver. And, as the OP and the above posters rightly deplore, music is often treated particularly carelessly, when a fortune is spent on correct buttons for every single uniform, for example. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Mar 20 - 09:04 AM There was a trailer for the forthcoming production of "The Secret Garden" which seemed to show a 1950s railway carriage! I wondered why that book had suddenly got popular. Had a few people asking for it in the bookshop last week. We didn't have it, but would My Secret Garden do? (I'm sure there are trains in it. Or at least thrusting pistons). |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Mar 20 - 05:06 AM Playford was history by Austen's time - like setting a film in the 1980s Manchester club scene and having a big band in suits playing Begin the Beguine for the dancers. There are lots of dance/tune publications of the period - Aird seems to have been the go-to source, and the number of booklets William Campbell managed to sell suggests that Scottish dances were hugely popular in 1800-ish England. Minuets persisted at the top end of the market (I don't think the Playfords published many of those), soon to be eclipsed by the waltz after 1815. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 05 Mar 20 - 05:26 PM The dance music used for the ball scene included Michael Turner's waltz, credited as Mr turner's waltz in the end credits (nothing about Mendlesson for that one). The other folk tunes were used as scene setters partly to indicate passage of time. One of the secondary charaster is a farmer, who would have not moved in the same circles as the main characters so it could be said that more rural folk music was appropriate for him. There was a trailer for the forthcoming production of "The Secret Garden" which seemed t show a 1950s railway carriage! Robin |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Mr Red Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:39 AM note the clock striking the hour in Julius Caesar. Yea, sundials can get pretty loud on the hour! My point about speaking to the audience in their language. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Neil D Date: 04 Mar 20 - 10:11 PM The western movie "McCabe and Mrs. Miller" features the music of Leonard Cohen. I'm quite grateful to that movie for turning me on to Mr Cohen when I was 15. It was the first time I ever waited through the credits for the music credits (why are they always so near the end?). This is something I do all the time now. As for as anachronism is concerned, even The Bard was guilty, note the clock striking the hour in Julius Caesar. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Mr Red Date: 04 Mar 20 - 05:29 PM The people Austen was writing about never encountered it. Well now, there is an organisation called the Jane Austen Dancers of Bath who dance Playfordish, often in costume of the Jane Austen era see the video. The inference must be, Jane Austen knew and danced such polite social dances, especially in Bath. Quite complex when it gets into triple minors. And none of yer rumbustuousness - the essence is on flowing and grace. I have even been at a workshop with the doyen of advisers to the film industry on the dances of the era. Rigadoon anyone? Or is it rigadon? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: meself Date: 04 Mar 20 - 12:44 PM robomatic: What is your point re: Dueling Banjos? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: meself Date: 04 Mar 20 - 12:42 PM Jack: why would you say that Austen's characters would never have encountered English folk music? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering - particularly as one of her characters does reference 'that old song about the maid who lives in the garrett' (paraphrasing)? I would be surprised if Jane Austen didn't hear as much folk music as she did Mozart, et al ... ? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Jack Campin Date: 04 Mar 20 - 05:29 AM Why would there have been ANY English folk music in an adaptation of Emma? The people Austen was writing about never encountered it. There are a couple of CDs of Austen-related music - we know what she listened to. Mozart and Pleyel, now you're talking. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 04 Mar 20 - 03:36 AM We went to see "Emma" last night. After viewing this thread it was almost disappointing that everything seemed correct! Incidental music from the Watersons, Silly Sisters etc. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Tattie Bogle Date: 03 Mar 20 - 12:10 PM Yes, zither not bouzouki in The Third Man: thanks for the link, Jack. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST Date: 03 Mar 20 - 11:31 AM There are cases and cases: The only case where it matters is if the musical performance is part of the screenplay. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Mar 20 - 05:40 AM The story behind the "Third Man" music: Anton Karas |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 03 Mar 20 - 04:47 AM I always thought it was a zither played in The Third Man, rather than bouzouki. Whereas there seems be ukuleles used in The Durrells series, rather than bouzouki or baglamas. Come to think of it, the bouzouki featured greatly in the film of Zorba the Greek, but technically should have been a Cretan Lyra. Dies anyone recall whether Hawaii Five O featured any indigenous instruments? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Mr Red Date: 03 Mar 20 - 04:31 AM Ben Hur (Ben was OK but shame about her) The chariot race. Tyre tracks in the heads-on moving scenes. Today it would be removed with CGI. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 03 Mar 20 - 03:45 AM To say nothing of the tyre tracks, standard lamps etc. which sometimes turn up in historical films! |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: robomatic Date: 03 Mar 20 - 12:33 AM There are cases and cases: 1) Music that is anachronistic because the writer/director/producer/musicmaster got it wrong. There are probably many cases of this that are unknown to this day because nobody knows. 2) Music that is anachronistic on purpose. Case in point is the brief but intense series "The Knick" which takes place in turn of the (last) century New York City, but has very modernistic music. 3) Music that is anageographic(?) The famous use of bazouki music in "The Third Man". 4) The case of it's just music. I'd put forward the memorable "Dueling Banjos" and the use of "Ashokan Farewell" in the Burns Brothers Documentary "The Civil War". And Butch and Sundance will always have "Raindrops". |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Mr Red Date: 01 Mar 20 - 03:52 AM yea like Eric Idle singing a Universe song, so? emerging out of a fridge? I know space is cold, but ............ What's that all about? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: punkfolkrocker Date: 29 Feb 20 - 09:39 AM What is very interesting is that the recent death of Terry Jones reminded us that out of all movies and TV, Monty Python is probably amongst the most scrupulously stubbornly historically accurate...!!!??? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Bat Goddess Date: 29 Feb 20 - 08:50 AM Watching historical films -- or any film with weaponry or military uniforms -- with Tom (Mudcat's "Curmudgeon") could be both distracting and trying. He curmudged his way through them and I watched most of these types of films with Tom's rant about weapons or uniforms that were just WRONG. Thank goodness most of these were watched on videotape or DVD in the privacy of our home, rather than in a movie theatre! (In which case, the rant would come on the way home...) I don't think his rants interfered with the entertainment...often his rants were quite entertaining! But it isn't just music, weapons and uniforms that film production gets wrong so often. I learned a lot about historical political nuances from Tom while watching popular films whose plot line treated historical truth carelessly. We have a friend who works in Hollywood and he confided to us years ago that fact checkers, consultants, and writers in the film industry only worry about things that could get them sued. Nothing else matters or interferes with their highly fictitous world-view. Linn |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 29 Feb 20 - 07:43 AM True, but you could still accuse the poster of being motivated by the smug satisfaction of showing off their knowledge, rather than genuinely assisting the enquiry. I notice that it’s common for posters on US music bulletin boards to list all the instruments they own at the end of their message. Is that not about bragging? It seems like an invitation to burglars to my mind. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Mr Red Date: 29 Feb 20 - 05:49 AM how do you share knowledge and tips sincerely these days without being cast as a pedantic attention seeker? anonymously! |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Jerry Date: 28 Feb 20 - 01:00 PM Spoken like a gentleman, sir. An interesting thread this one, with some good thought provoking points. It’s true that those people that write to the BBC pointing out inaccuracies in some recent production, don’t elicit many reactions along the lines of ‘well done, you clever and better educated fellow than the rest of us”, but more typically “no one loves a smartarse, you smug pedant”. However, I worry that some of us contributing to some of these threads stray dangerously close to the same territory - how do you share knowledge and tips sincerely these days without being cast as a pedantic attention seeker? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: meself Date: 28 Feb 20 - 11:04 AM 'The Fiddler would play his best fit, and the "xyz director" would say, "got any more?"' I didn't think of this, but, based on my very limited experience in show-biz outside playing in pubs, it sounds likely. So a fiddler actually might have put in considerable time preparing 'authentic' material, and then end up having to play something that is more appealing to the director. So I hereby withdraw my snooty insinuations about the fiddlers themselves. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 28 Feb 20 - 09:47 AM Looks like it was definitely Lord of the Dance, exactly as I (half) remembered it. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Manitas_at_home Date: 28 Feb 20 - 06:27 AM They had an 'intermission' featuring live musicians playing traditional music, maybe they had been using Calliope House in this part of the show. I understand that in many places on their tour the music (and footsteps) were recorded and the intermission was the only part with live music. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 28 Feb 20 - 05:02 AM I don't think that was Riverdance, they only used Bill Whelan's music. Perhaps their split off, Lord of the Dance? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Dave Hanson Date: 28 Feb 20 - 02:59 AM CupOfTea, the Show Riverdance discovered that problem with Dave Richardsons tune ' Caliope House ' and dropped it from the show rather than pay royalties. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: CupOfTea Date: 27 Feb 20 - 07:16 PM I'm in the same camp as John P - spotting anachronistic tunes makes me a bit smug, pleased that I'm educated enough to know the difference. I'm also realistic enough to know nobody much cares other than other trad enthusiasts.... Except... There is one shining example of consequences hitting hard. The film makers of "Napoleon Dynamite" realized a bit too late that "Music for a found Harmonium " wasn't trad, and taking it from an album recently produced w/out permission had even more costly consequences. Taking the smug knowledge and making it useful is sometimes possible. A dance band I'm in plays some benefit gigs for the (non-folkie) general public. When someone comments that Ashokan Farewell is a civil war tune, I enjoy buttering up my correction of that by describing Ashokan, the setting, how enjoyable the music camp is, and one's reluctance to leave such a great experience, the source of the tune's inspiration, and how that place rings with traditional tunes year round. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST Date: 27 Feb 20 - 07:09 PM I don't care about the background music, it is there to produce a mood not to reflect historical accuracy. Music being performed as part of the action is another matter. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: John P Date: 27 Feb 20 - 06:10 PM These are movies made by people who don't care about musical authenticity. They care about whether or not a piece of music fits with the feeling they are trying to create in the movie. Also, the movie audiences don't care - we folkies are a minute minority of people and most people just want it to sound good, and especially to not stand out from the movie to a modern ear. Remember that most people don't really like traditional/historical music. If the director were trying to make a movie that was historically accurate, I would expect them to look at all the details. But most of them aren't trying to recreate history. They're just telling a story, in modern terms, that happened in the past. Think of it like all those King Arthur movies where everyone is wearing medieval armor. They're establishing a milieu for their movie, not reproducing one from the past. We shouldn't judge whether or not they are successful at something they're not trying to do. That said, I am also a person who notices historical inaccuracies. It doesn't drive me crazy so much as make me feel smug and superior ;^) I've been watching a lot of Jane Austen movies over the last year, and they all have dance scenes. Some actually use English country dance tunes and dances, but most have modern music that's trying and failing to sound Olde, and those have REALLY bad-looking dancing, again that's trying and failing to look real. Modern music and dance just don't go together with period costumes in my mind. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Brian Peters Date: 27 Feb 20 - 04:58 PM Great work, PHJim, each to his or her area of expertise. Disappointed I didn't spot the Shubb, though. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 27 Feb 20 - 04:24 PM The usual railway equivalent to the 1958 Edsel in a 1955 film is more like a Morris Minor in Victorian London, 1960s carriages in 1890s. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Bruce Date: 27 Feb 20 - 04:00 PM I'm a Coen Brothers fan and appreciate the choice of instruments [probably T-Bone Burnett's decision]. However, when Llewyn visits his ageing father and sings him a song his dad liked when he was 'young', the song he plays is Shoals of Herring, written no more than a year or two before the film is set. My current favourite is Jojo Rabbit - set in world war two, but opens with I Wanna Hold Your Hand [in German] and closes with Bowie's Heroes [which may be anachronistic, but fits the scene perfectly]. |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: PHJim Date: 27 Feb 20 - 12:48 PM Sorry. I put the wrong link in that post. Horse Feathers Canoe Scene (I hope) |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: PHJim Date: 27 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM "Mind you, I am the kind of bloke that shouts at the telly when a period drama uses the wrong kind of steam train - which is just about every time." I assume that Brian is a rail fan. Using a 1958 Edsel in a movie set in 1955 would jump out at a car fan. Being a musician, certain things jump out at me. In "Inside Llewyn Davis", Llewyn's character plays era appropriate guitars and music. They were even careful enough to show him with an old Hamilton capo early in the film, which made it bother me even more when he was later pictured using a Shubb capo. A minor mistake was a Martin guitar with a black pick guard in the fifties in the Johnny Cash movie "Walk The Line". Woody Guthrie was pictured playing a Mossman guitar in "Bound For Glory". In the movie "Horse Feathers", Groucho uses a different guitar to play than the one he throws out of the canoe. Horse Feathers Canoe Scene |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Tattie Bogle Date: 27 Feb 20 - 10:55 AM Fishermen's Friends with instruments! |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Feb 20 - 10:46 AM mostly in the grave by now... |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: GUEST,Starship Date: 27 Feb 20 - 10:44 AM Where does that leave piano players who sometimes accompanied silent movies? |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Feb 20 - 08:26 AM This might be it, it seems familiar enough... Worth a read to get an idea of some of the realities of providing music for big movies... https://lbbonline.com/news/an-in-depth-look-at-the-on-set-music-for-david-mackenzies-outlaw-king/ |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: punkfolkrocker Date: 27 Feb 20 - 08:18 AM I still can't find the link I posted months ago.. but the trendy phrase for it is.. "Diegetic film music.. ..is music in a drama that is part of the fictional setting and so, presumably, is heard by the characters. The term refers to diegesis, a style of storytelling. Wikipedia" |
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Subject: RE: Anachronistic Music in Movies From: Jack Campin Date: 27 Feb 20 - 07:40 AM Eh? There is NO music surviving from Bruce's Scotland except Latin liturgy. A historically authentic sound track would be an extended disco remix of 4' 33". |
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