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Subject: Harry Cox From: The Sandman Date: 05 Mar 20 - 02:01 PM https://youtu.be/-bpJnaEuuoQ Yarmouth Fishermans song |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: GeoffLawes Date: 05 Mar 20 - 06:53 PM 54 Recordings of Harry Cox on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11PdLn7mCj8&list=OLAK5uy_lTrPYTjXCXGC5uM02fYuLiMwuT9XTdJZ8&index=1 1.You Must Get the Tune First...2.The Female Drummer3.People What Don't Like to Hear an Old Song...4.Two Jolly Brothers5.Polka6.When I Sing a Song My Mind Is on It...7.Bold Archer8.There's Bound to Be a Row9.Betsy the Servant Maid10.Firelock Stile11.The Green Mossy Banks of the Lee12.The Pretty Ploughboy13.The Watercress Girl14.A Week's Matrimon15.The Black Velvet Band16.A Hornpipe (Fiddle)17.The Maid of Australia18.Alone, Alone in London19.Miss Doxy20.The Bonny Labouring Boy21.The Good Luck Ship22.The Fowler23.In Scarborough Fair Town24.I Had an Old Hos25.The Green Bed26.A Jig27.The Bold Drover28.Georgie29.A Schottische30.Black-hearted Gypsies O31.The Rigs of the Times32.The Grand Hotel33.The Transports34.Where the Shamrocks Gro35.Barton Broad Ditty36.Adieu to Old England37.Bold Fisherman38.A Polka39.Ekefield Town40.A Happy Family41.Old Joe, the Boat Is Going Over42.Blackberry Fold43.They Told Me in the Gaol44.The Fowler |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Mar 20 - 11:30 AM Was hoping for more from this Dick Perhaps this might set the pulses racing Jim Carroll This is an example of a song recorded originally by R J Moeran who sent it to an early Folk Song Journal (singer unidentified) Only the tune was published with a note that the words were too indecent to include Girl of Lowestoft or The Hole in the Walll sung by Harry Cox, circa 1950 (rec by Alan Lomax) If you go To Lowestoft And ask for the Hole in the Wall There you’ll find Polly Armstrong She ain’t got a hole at all She was a rum one, she was a funny one, She was a rum one O At last I found her hole ‘Twas underneath her frock If you gave me all the world I couldn't find my cock She was a rum one etc At las I found my cock, My cock was in her hand And if you gave me all the world I couldn’t get him to stand She was…. At last I got him up, As stiff as a wooden pin If you gave me all the world I couldn’t get him in She was…. At last I got him in And wriggled him about If you gave me all the world I couldn’t get him out She was…. At last I got him out, he was so stiff and sore, If you gave me all the world I’ll never touch another whore She was Alternative first verse If you go to Lowestoft Sand ask fro the Rising Sun There you’ll find two old whores And my old woman is one |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: GUEST,Bruce Date: 11 Mar 20 - 12:20 PM Such a charming ditty. The reference is Maud Karpeles, AG Gilchrist, EJ Moeran, A Martin Freeman, Frank Howes. Humorous and Disreputable Songs, and Ballads of Adventure. JFSS. 8:35: 270-279. December 1931. EJ Moeran's comment is 'The words are indecent and not of interest or value, so they have not been noted.' The song is listed as being sung in the Star at Martham, Norfolk, in 1924 but, as Jim notes, no individual singer is named (no names, no pack drill, as one Norfolk singer told me). |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Mar 20 - 12:52 PM Thanks for the reference Bruce, I can't find my Journal index and I find Roud a little difficult nowadays Jim |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: GUEST,Wm Date: 11 Mar 20 - 01:36 PM Link to the Lomax recording of Harry Cox referenced by Jim. |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Mar 20 - 02:32 PM Thanks wm Jim |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Mar 20 - 03:59 PM The thing that stunned me when I first came across this song was it was alomost identical to a rhyme we used to chant when I was a young teenager in Liverpool God blimey Mr Murphy, bless your heart and soul I shagged your daughter last night, but I couldn't find her hole I found her hole at last sir, underneath her frock God blimey Mr Murphy, I couldn't find my cock I found my cock at last sir, it was long and thin, God blimey Mr Murphy, I couldn't get it in I got it in at last sir and wiggled it about God blimey Mr Murphy, I couldn't get it out I got is out at last sir, it was red and raw God blimey Mr Murphy, I won't shag her no more The Opie's claimed in their 'Lore and Language of Schoolchildren' that Eroticism and true bawdry didn't exist in children's songs and rhymes except among a handful of "Ogre Children" who "forced their filth on their unwilling classmates" (can't find the reference) I must have been one of those !!! Jim |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Mar 20 - 04:09 PM Me too! |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: GeoffLawes Date: 11 Mar 20 - 07:57 PM Here ia a recording of Harry Cox singing She was a Rum One which is the song being discussed here. |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 11 Mar 20 - 08:41 PM Interesting song. My grandmother (Middlesbrough) gave me this (clean) song, which I'd always assumed was a children's song. The tune is not the same as the Harry Cox one, but the song could be a relative: I'm a rum one, fol-the-diddle-i-do I'm a rum one, fol-the-diddle-day. On Wednesday I was taken, On Thursday I was tried. I got forty days in Durham Gaol For blacking the bobby's eye. And now I am out again And I am doing well. You can tell the Durham turnkeys That they can go to Hell. If ever you go to Darlington, Enquire for the Hole In The Wall You get your beer for a penny a pint And a woman for nothing at all. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Mar 20 - 04:08 AM Interesting Mick, I wonder if your grandmother was Irish We recorded a song from blind Irish Traveller, Mary Delaney which ran: "If ever you go to Kilkenny, Enquire for the hole in the wall, It's there you'll get eggs for a penny And bacon for nothing at all" There were several more verses - I think we included it on the Traveller CD, 'From Puck to Appleby' as a 'Traveller's own' song We found 'The Hole in the Wall' to have been a famous Georgian private club and eating house for the local gentry (still existing in ruins) tucked away just off the main street in Kilkenny The alley leading down to it, still called 'The Hole in the Wall' used to have a tiny Saturday street market, run and frequents by the local poor' This is the somewhat outrageously condemnatory statement by the Opies on children's bawdy songs I referred to - They really did need to get out more "Genuinely erotic verse, however, is unusual. That there are villains among children, as among adults, the News of the World offers frequent testimony; and from somewhere the ogre child acquires his strange salacious prescriptions, taking criminal pleasure in pressing them on juniors, and inscribing them on the walls of the school lavatory. But we are not here discussing delinquents. The usual group of youngsters whispering together, passing some verse to each other and giggling, though they refuse to tell what it is, are probably interested in nothing more sordid than the deeds of nature, an intimate garment, or a crude word. Pp. 95-96, Chapter 6, ‘Parody and Impropriety, Lore and Language of Schoolchildren.Oxford at Clarendon Press Publishers 1959" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Snuffy Date: 12 Mar 20 - 06:48 AM Several versions,are in this thread Lyr Add: Mrs Murphy, including one I learned in junior school (near Stockport) back in about 1954/55 |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 12 Mar 20 - 06:54 AM Thanks for that info Jim. Until now I'd not found anything similar. My ancestors on both sides were Irish Jim - Lynch and McCarthy on my grandmother's side; grandfather Clifford (dead before I was born) came from Mallow via Dowlais and York to Middlesbrough. Several of my grandmother's brothers were bandsman in WWI, but only one was alive during my lifetime and I didn't really know him (though he had a fiddle). In 1974 still quite early in my folk music years I asked her if she knew any songs, Apart from the song above she only had a few fragments of comic songs: Am I a man or am I a mouse, Am I a decent man, a lodger, I'd like to know who's the boss of our house, Is it me or Flanagan the lodger. (I'm guessing the 1st lodger should have been something like codger). This one with The Man You Don't Meet Everyday chorus: The Hod Carrier (?) I came over from Ireland a twelve months ago The work it was slack and the wages was low I'm working for Mister McAlpine and Co. My name it is Patsy Kinsella and so With bricks up the ladder I'm willing to go for the man at the top does the work of the whole. Ch/ So fill up your glasses and call what you please Whatever the damage I'll pay So be easy and free while you're boozin' with me I'm a man you don't meet everyday. In the very first round it was Mick on the ground With a punch that went under his chin The greatest city in the world is London At least that's what the wealthy people say. It's very nice for some who always get the plum I only get what others throw away While London sleeps and all the lights are gleaming Millions of its people now lie softly dreaming Some have no homes, while others... Mick |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Mar 20 - 07:15 AM I'd guessed you had Irish links from your name The link to the Navvying is interesting in 'Man you Don't Meet' - it's still sung around, but I'd never come across that reference I kick muyslef for not knowing enough about my own family history (especially now I need an Irish passport, thanks to the subject we never discuss here) I'm also sorry I didn't follow up my family links to song though I know they existed My Grandfather was a merchant seaman who sang shanties - his father the same The latter was a heavy drinker who drowned when he decided to walk into town for a drink - they were moored a mile off New York. My dad was a prisoner during the Spanish Civil War so the first folk songs I ever learned were in Spanish Missed opportunities - eh !! Jim |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: The Sandman Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:08 AM having chatted about Harry to someone he knew him well. I have been told that certain songs.such as she was a rum one , he would only sing in certain situationsand not when women were present |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: The Sandman Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:14 AM Harry was a man of sensitivity. |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:20 AM Most singers where When we first met Walter, we asked him to sing Maid of Australia He asked Pat if she wouldn't be offended by it Jim |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 14 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM Well, I stand by my comment that the words to 'The Hole in the Wall' and variants are of interest, however dismissive some past commentators might have been. They are an example of a male person singing in the first person about sexual ignorance and incompetence. It seems that a view is emerging that this sort of song was sung mostly or often in company from which women were excluded. All this is interesting. So is the fact that people appear to regard the song as 'erotic' or 'erotica'. This can either mean 'arousing sexually' or just 'dealing with the sexual'. I just point this out. Wondering whether this will get censored? |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 14 Mar 20 - 09:35 AM The version we sang on the school bus began with a reference to a clergyman's daughter and we mostly thought it was funny. Because the persona was so obviously a clown. |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Mar 20 - 10:10 AM "They are an example of a male person singing in the first person about sexual ignorance and incompetence. " Somewhat sexist, methinks The basic strength of the song (if there is any) is that it is satirically self-deprecating - a sexually incompetence man blaming a woman for his incompetence It is an adolescent song at its very best Why on earth should anybody wish to censor you ? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Mar 20 - 10:38 AM This is the antithesis of the song which we recorded from Traveller, Bill Bryan Here it boasts of the sexual superiority of a Traveller over all the other 'competitors' It is an extremely rare example recorded at a time when it was thought that the Irish didn't sing many 'dirty' songs - Bill was the only one I ever heard singing it It can be heard (in part, I think) on the Musical Traditions site under 'From Puck to Appleby Jim Carroll 8 - Marie (Maureen) from Gippursland (Roud 7269) Bill Bryan Oh the first come up was a blacksmith With a hammer and anvil in his hand, He said he'd hammer a new foundationBill Bryan In Maureen from Gippursland. He hammered her, he hammered her Until his sides was sick and sore, And after all his labour she leaked In the place where she leaked before. Oh the next come up was a saddler With a needle and thread all in his hand, He said he'd sew a new foundation In Maureen from Gippursland. He awled her, he sewed her Until his sides was sick and sore, And after all his labour she leaked In the place where she leaked before. Oh the next come up was a baker With the flour and soda in his hand, He said he'd bake a new foundation In Marie from Gippursland. He baked her, he roasted her Until his sides was sick and sore, And after all his labour she leaked In the place where she leaked before. Oh the next come up was a tailor With the cloth and scissors in his hand, He said he'd cut a new foundation In Marie from Gippursland. He scissored her, he sewed her Until his sides was sick and sore, And after all his labour she leaked In the place where she leaked before. And the next come up was a big ploughman With a horse and plough all in his hands, He said he'd plough a new foundation In Marie from Gippursland. He ploughed her, he harrowed her Until his sides was sick and sore, And after all his labour she leaked In the place where she leaked before. Oh the next come up was a timberman With the axe all in his hand, He said he'd axe a new foundation Into Marie from Gippursland. He chopped her, he sawed her Until his sides was sick and sore, And after all his labour she leaked In the place where she leaked before. Ah, but now the next come up was a big tinkerman With a soldering iron in his hand, He said he'd solder a new foundation In Marie from Gippursland. He rosined her, he soldered her Until his sides were sick and sore, But after all his labour she never leaked In the place where she leaked before. The only other full text of this song recorded from a traditional singer seems to have been a macaronic one (Irish and English) found in Co Mayo in 1936 entitled Mairín Ní Ghiobhalaín, which begins Bhí mise lá ag baint mónach (I was cutting turn one day). A version entitled The Jolly Weaver, described as an old Ulster weaving song, is to be found in The Journal of The Irish Folk Song Society of 1906 as follows: In comes the jolly weaver to weave the orange and the blue, To weave a sink on Morney’s loom his shuttles went so quim And merrily flew from hand to hand, his jacks they were all a trimlin’ Why don’t you shift your temples man. Ti-de-i-e-do-e-dan said old Morney Gibberland Next came in a sailor who often ploughed the raging main; To take a trip with Morney, he thought it neither sin nor shame. He viewed his compass clearly, and feared neither rock nor sand, He steered him to the harbour with old Morney Gibberland There next came in a mason, with hammer, trowel, in his hand To lay a strong foundation for old Morney Gibberland, The mortar it was soft, the stones they wouldn’t steady stand. ‘Clap your plumb-line to the gable,’ said old Morney Gibberland. Next came in a ploughman, with two ploughshares in his hand, To plough a furr for Morney, for old Morney Gibberland Collector’s note: ‘The word ‘quim’ in the first verse means quickly. I have also heard the same word used in conversation in the Co Monaghan’. This is a collation of verses ‘from natives of Belfast, Newtonards (sic) and Downpatrick’, all in the Co Down. They were collected by Edith Wheeler with the music taken down by Mrs C Milligan Fox. The words in italics are hand loom terms. Either the writer was unaware of the erotic nature of the song, or the social restrictions of the time prevented her from referring to it. The word quim in the first verse is a slang term usually referring to the female pudendum! There is also a fragment entitled Mairins Gibberlan, described as ‘decidedly objectionable’, included in the Greig Duncan Collection. Bill Bryan got the song from his father, Martin. Ref: The Journal of The Irish Folk Song Society, 1906; The Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection, vol 7, Mercat Press, 1997 |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: The Sandman Date: 14 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM Pseud,so should we condemn "the game of all fours" because it states that women are sexually more likely to have more orgasms than men. i know that there is very little sport on at the moment, but pseud you seem to be desperate to have sport winding us all up |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Mar 20 - 09:35 AM Source singers like harry have given us the material that kept the reviavl going for as long as it has - I feel stronly that is is time they were respected for their contribution to our lives I was recently critiscised by having disliking the use of "big words" by David (I used to know him as "Dave" Atkinson I fel |I should make my attitude clear regarding their use when discussiong the role so singers like Harry My attitude to 'big words' when discussing 'the voice of the people' is one of deep suspicion - I find them unnecessary and choose not to use them myself - I've long stopped reading books that necessitate a copy of The Encyclopedia Britannica at hand to get through I suspect they are written and spoken in a sort of Freemasonese intended to exclude the very type of people who gave us our songs Pat and I gave around 50 talks on the live performane of folk song and tales in our time, largely from our own experiences Where possible, we took some of our singers with us, Mikeen mcCarthy, Mary Delanney, Tom McCarthy and Fergus McTeggart in particular Had we delivered what we had to say in a "language that the stranger does not know", we not only would have been extremely dismissive of our guests, but we would be treating them as lab rats I originally intended to post this on the closed thread - let's see what happens Jim |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 17 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM Jim, just quickly and from memory: with regard to the "Gippurland" song, there are a couple of similarities with regard to terminology and work-practices/tools of the trade in Scottish songs, not necessarily (overtly) bawdy. "My Jo, Janet", "Come rede me, dame", "I have thrie owsen [or 'pownies'] in a plow" and the full of a barrow of songs about Tinklers and Tailors. With regard to abstruse terminology and the like, James Barke wrote that a peasant calls a spade a spade because he has no other word for it, and drew an interesting distinction between Scots bawdy humour and English. It's in the Introduction to the edition of "The Merry Muses of Caledonia" prepared by himself and S G Smith, c1960. |
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Subject: RE: Harry Cox From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Mar 20 - 12:39 PM Thanks for that An Buachaill Caol Dubh I haven't seen the Scots versions and was first told of them by Sheila Douglas The symbolic (not always bawdy) use of tools is fairly common to all traditions I would guess - perhaps it's time somebody did a proper jobbie on it Jim Must get down to learning to spell your name !! |
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