How To Research the History of a Song

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 06:36 AM

Interesting comments, Jag. I cannot claim to be a specialist though I cam make some claim to be a musician and I have done a fair bit of background reading in both 'folklore' and relevant fields. As Wilgus points out, there is a certain amount of crossover. I agree with you that simply quoting 'the academic literature' is risky, as this will have its own assumptions. I think that today the use of explicit analytic frameworks is encouraged, partly to provide evidence of academic 'rigour' and also on a view that these may help bring assumptions, attitudes and beliefs into the open. There will be disagreements within academia of course, some more and some less passionate. Intelligence testing is an example from my own educational background (English and Psychology, honours degree level). I think my background in Eng Lang and Lit is one reason that some work on folklore eg books about the development of the ballad form interest me.

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 05:16 PM

I really don't want to get back to these nit-picking arguments about definitions. What about custom and usage? We've had these discussions over and over and over. The English language, like many another, is very fluid. Dictionaries sometimes struggle to keep up with usage. I am not an academic, I'm a writer/researcher, and to be absolutely honest I'd rather listen to the word on the street than pick up a dictionary or accept the word of some academic who has to toe the line. The various meanings of 'folk' are well-known in the circles I inhabit and I'm quite aware of the broad meaning Joe Public uses. We are talking about words that millions of people use every day. They don't all use the word in quite the same way but there has to be some concensus or total confusion would ensue.

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 03:28 AM

Agreed on nit-picking arguments about definitions. Sorry if I appeared to be going down that road.

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 05:12 AM

Some of my picking at definitions is because I am not entirely convinced about the research practices of the past. It appears that others are not happy with practices espoused by more recent workers (such as Steve Roud).

The word I had been avoiding, because is quite a 'long' one was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm I had only come across it in a science. However, the Wikipedia page has an interesting section on its use in the social sciences, which I think is more like what we are talking about here.

As I read it, Jacobs (in his discussion on the 'the Folk') and Harker (in the introduction and final paragraphs of Fakesong) were both challenging current paradigms relevant to 'folk song'.

That's why I am 'poking a stick' at the use of phrases that carry meaning, or baggage, amongst a specific group of researchers. I know that some people with a lot of experience have challenged them and think others use them simply as a shield when challenged.

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

"(such as Steve Roud)."
Who is an adimirable 'paper-pusher' who has exprssed a disinterest in the singing of songs in the revival
Researches of the past have involved themselves heavily in songs as they are sung rather than how they appear in print - that seems to have reversed
Sorry about that - carry on navel-gazing

Jim

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM

@ Jag. I have encountered the word 'paradigm' in social science too, and also the term 'paradigm shift'. I think the latter originates in the philosophy of science. It describes how new discoveries can radically change the view that scientists have of the world. But people may tend to provide an account of the history of a song or a singer or an event that reflects the folkloric paradigm within which they are working, I suppose.

In the piece I cited at the start of the thread, Jenkins makes use of another concept from social science that has relevant potential: 'confirmation bias'. It can be described as a tendency to select and interpret and recall new information in a way that strengthens existing beliefs. The phenomenon has been well documented in Psychology and Jenkins applies it to the emergence of the 'misleading tale' about the origins of The Cowboy's Lament. He says that cavalier attitudes to evidence and sheer carelessness (as in the Dublin/Cork error) played a part but says that 'the role of preconceptions in the selection of evidence and the encouragement of unsupported and often unacknowledged speculation' while 'inconvenient counter-indications' are ignored.

He says that self-belief and considerable investment in their own sense of being an authority may have made it harder for some people to acknowledge that they have got it wrong.

So when researching the history of a song and evaluating what has been written about it, these are factors to consider taking into account.

                   **************************

I should perhaps clarify that I enjoy a discussion but that I do not like it when a discussion turns combative or descends into insults. Harker somewhere uses the phrase 'bullshit anti-intellectualism' and I think perhaps we may have seen hints of it on Mudcat from time to time.

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 07:04 AM

" turns combative or descends into insults"
You make the most combative postings on this forum, particularly about source singers and collectors and you constantly insult those who disagree with you, you've made a name for yourself for both - happy to provide examples
You really need to take a hard look in the mirror
One of your star victims
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: How To Research the History of a Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 20 - 07:08 AM

I think we've exhausted this subject.