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Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom

Joe Offer 14 Mar 20 - 03:57 AM
Joe Offer 14 Mar 20 - 04:28 AM
DaveRo 14 Mar 20 - 04:45 AM
Joe Offer 14 Mar 20 - 05:20 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Mar 20 - 11:04 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 14 Mar 20 - 11:08 AM
DaveRo 14 Mar 20 - 04:31 PM
Joe Offer 14 Mar 20 - 04:35 PM
Mr Red 15 Mar 20 - 06:55 AM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 20 - 07:39 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 20 - 05:28 PM
EBarnacle 17 Mar 20 - 11:41 AM
Nick 17 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM
Tattie Bogle 17 Mar 20 - 02:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 20 - 08:05 PM
Joe Offer 18 Mar 20 - 02:46 AM
Mr Red 18 Mar 20 - 03:11 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 20 - 09:07 AM
Nick 18 Mar 20 - 12:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 20 - 02:22 PM
Mr Red 18 Mar 20 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 20 - 10:10 PM
GUEST,Experience with Zoom 22 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM
Joe Offer 23 Mar 20 - 12:33 AM
DaveRo 23 Mar 20 - 04:58 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 23 Mar 20 - 11:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Mar 20 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,John Moulden 23 Mar 20 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Lynn Noel 24 Mar 20 - 02:37 PM
JHW 24 Mar 20 - 03:54 PM
Joe Offer 26 Mar 20 - 02:48 AM
Acorn4 26 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM
DaveRo 26 Mar 20 - 08:57 AM
sandtreader 26 Mar 20 - 11:01 AM
leeneia 26 Mar 20 - 11:21 AM
Joe Offer 26 Mar 20 - 11:35 AM
Joe Offer 26 Mar 20 - 11:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM
Sarah the flute 27 Mar 20 - 05:58 PM
Mrrzy 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 PM
rich-joy 27 Mar 20 - 09:17 PM
Joe Offer 27 Mar 20 - 10:30 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 28 Mar 20 - 08:40 AM
rich-joy 28 Mar 20 - 06:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 11:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 11:16 PM
Sarah the flute 01 Apr 20 - 05:21 AM
Mooh 01 Apr 20 - 10:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Apr 20 - 12:38 PM
Nick 02 Apr 20 - 04:59 PM
Joe Offer 03 Apr 20 - 02:09 PM
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Subject: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 03:57 AM

To help control the risks of coronavirus, we cancelled our monthly Sacramento Song Circle gathering until June, so we'll miss three months. Somebody suggested that we have a song circle by conference call this evening, so we did. We used FreeConferenceCall.com. About 15 people called in, and it was fun. There was one problem - there was a delay in the sound from some of the callers, so it was very hard for us to sing together. When we did our International Mudcat Singarounds on HearMe in the 1990s, only one person sang at a time, and there was no problem with sound delays. But our Sacramento group does community singing, and we found this hard on the setup we had.

Can anybody recommend free conference call services that would work well for singarounds? I think a lot of us are encountering cancelled singing sessions, and we have to find a way to feed our habit.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:28 AM

And I think it would be really nice if we could have a weekly Mudcat singaround online. Any ideas for how to set it up?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:45 AM

The technical term for this delay is 'latency'. You want a low-latency conference service. That can be expensive. I just read that big tech firms like Microsoft are offering their services free to support people dealing with the CV pandemic. Maybe you could interest them in creating 'Microsoft Singing Together' as an aid to community wellbeing ;)

What conference facility were you using? If only a few participants had a much higher lag than the majority then maybe they could fix their end, by using a cable broadband connection rather then a mobile.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 05:20 AM

Hi, Dave - we used FreeConferenceCall.com

It worked well if just one person was singing, and if we didn't use speakerphones. They send us a usage report afterwards, and it showed we has 19 participants.

I think we may be onto something here, if we can improve the quality.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for the note about this last night, Joe. It was the middle of the night so I didn't respond to the remarks about a conference call. I don't sing in way that people hear me, I know the words but don't carry a tune well. :) I wonder if your sessions are something you can record and put on YouTube?


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 11:08 AM

At work, we were using Skype for Business and now Microsoft Teams...but now singarounds, so far...


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:31 PM

I can't offer any advice based on personal experience of choral conferencing, so the following is theoretical.

Zoom (based in San Jose, California) is a video and audio conferencing service I know because it's used by Mozilla for technical meetings. It came to mind because it was mentioned in the article I read this morning, because they've increased the length of free calls due to the CV pandemic.

Googling, I find that it claims superior audio quality (I expect they all do) and that latency can be a problem (it's an international service) but affected by whether you have a local 'Point of Presence'. If your singers are all in the same area, and there is a local PoP then latency ought to be low. However, as I posted before, if people are accesing it over slow mobile connections then that's going to increase latency whatever software you use. And I think you really need headsets.

So it might be worth trying. Maybe somebody local works for Zoom or you can find a forum to discuss it. I bet it's not a usage they've thought of, but if you could interest them...


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 20 - 04:35 PM

My wife is trying a conference on Zoom this afternoon. I installed the app on her phone because she refuses to use computers, but her tiny phone is too small for my pudgy fingers and I can do nothing with it. The conference isn't happening yet, so I have nothing to connect to.
So, my only answer to all her questions is, "I don't know."

We're both frustrated.

I think I have her convinced to do it on a Chromebook. Looks very easy to do from there, but I can't handle tiny phone screens and keyboards, and the lack of a mouse. We won't know until the conference begins an hour from now.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Mar 20 - 06:55 AM

5G is touted as solving much of the latency problemo, though what I have read implies that the early adopters will only get a halving of latency because using the same frequencies as 3G & 4G. When higher frequencies come on line then latentcies may drop to tens of milliseconds. But there is always hype, and if users insist on watching films and sporting events on it, it will clog. And maybe the services will be tiered, financially.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 20 - 07:39 PM

My wife had a good time in her singing class on Zoom. It was easy to set up and worked quite well on my Chromebook, but there still was a notable latency delay.
Worked just fine, as long as only one person sang at at time.

The free Basic Zoom membership has a 40-minute limit on meetings with 3 or more participants. Apparently, there's no time limit for one-on-one meetings.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 20 - 05:28 PM

Here's an interesting comparison of the various services available:

https://www.quicksprout.com/best-conference-call-services/#FreeConferenceCall


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Mar 20 - 11:41 AM

I have been checking out providers both for virtual meetings and for a class I intend to teach.
Both Zoom and GoToMeeting function fairly well as "lecture" sites. I have had problems with getting moderator attention with the unmute function of both. The chat feature does not always work on my computer. For some reason gotomeeting minimizes the effectiveness of my microphone when I am trying to participate. I have had problems bringing up my camera with GoToMeeting as it seems to consume more of the available bandwidth than Zoom and I have to choose between video and speaking.

That said, Lynn Noel ran a good chanteysing on GoToMeeting this past Sunday. On her sing, there was no problem with joining in but, again, I had problems with the chat feature. Lynn was an alert moderator even by just enabling the microphone I was able to get recognized to participate.

On Monday, I participated in a meeting via Skype. Again, I had bandwidth issues. A good feature was that even with no chat feature, there is a separate unmute and a "raise your hand" feature. I liked this one best so far. In the next couple of days I intend to have a test run on Team, which is actually free.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Nick
Date: 17 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

I've used Reaper for years but never tried this. It looks as though it accepts that latency is an issue and makes that a feature - Ninjam


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Mar 20 - 02:23 PM

My daughter and her business partner are both physiotherapists and run a number of Pilates classes during the week: these are all now cancelled because of the bug, and they, like many musicians and other self-employed people face potential financial ruin.
BUT, they are looking into continuing classes online, using Zoom, encouraging their clients to sign up to this platform. I have seen various references to Zoom in other discussions between musicians who are hoping to keep tutorials and classes going.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 20 - 08:05 PM

If someone can work out a way of doing a tune session online that would be great - the synchronisation problem would be tricky. In principle it ought to be possible.

Maybe this crisis might push things forward toward some kind of virtual gatherings for music or other purposes, exploiting the tricks of technology used in games etc. Wars can bring remarkable leaps in technology, and this is a kind of war.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 02:46 AM

Well, Zoom worked great for our monthly social justice meeting. I'm so glad I didn't have to forego meeting with those wonderful people.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 03:11 AM

As see it, the latency is inherent, and varies with situation.
For communal singing, the problem is that X hears A mS later than Y and joins in so Y hears X 2 times A mS later. And when it reaches a certain point the brain tries to synchronise. X's brain fights the conflict and sings badly which in turn creates conflict for Y.

The speech (& speach ultimately) coach to George V used this latency effect to improve his stammer.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

We've just seen the new programme for July's 48th annual Willie Clancy Summer School - as impressive as ever
Fingers crossed
Yesterday's 'non-event' St Patrick's Day was one of the weirdest experiences I've ever known
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 09:07 AM

Some kind of relay system might be possible - so if person A plays or sing, person B can join in as if they are in the room; that could pass on to person C, who'd join in - and so forth. The final sound would be synchronised and person A could hear it back. It could go round and round.

How that could be worked out in practice is hard to see. I'd think it could only feasible for a relatively small group of people.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Nick
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 12:10 PM

That is what Ninjam does if I read it correctly. Just never tried

I think I understand what it does just can't envisage it in real life :)

"What is NINJAM?

NINJAM is open source (GPL) software to allow people to make real music together via the Internet. Every participant can hear every other participant. Each user can also tweak their personal mix to his or her liking. NINJAM is cross-platform, with clients available for Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows. REAPER (our digital audio workstation software for Windows and OS X) also includes NINJAM support (ReaNINJAM plug-in).

NINJAM uses compressed audio which allows it to work with any instrument or combination of instruments. You can sing, play a real piano, play a real saxophone, play a real guitar with whatever effects and guitar amplifier you want, anything. If your computer can record it, then you can jam with it (as opposed to MIDI-only systems that automatically preclude any kind of natural audio collaboration1).

Since the inherent latency of the Internet prevents true realtime synchronization of the jam2, and playing with latency is weird (and often uncomfortable), NINJAM provides a solution by making latency (and the weirdness) much longer.

Latency in NINJAM is measured in measures, and that's what makes it interesting.

The NINJAM client records and streams synchronized intervals of music between participants. Just as the interval finishes recording, it begins playing on everyone else's client. So when you play through an interval, you're playing along with the previous interval of everybody else, and they're playing along with your previous interval. If this sounds pretty bizarre, it sort of is, until you get used to it, then it becomes pretty natural. In many ways, it can be more forgiving than a normal jam, because mistakes propagate differently.

Part tool, part toy, NINJAM is designed with an emphasis on musical experimentation and expression.

How does NINJAM work?
NINJAM uses OGG Vorbis audio compression to compress audio, then streams it to a NINJAM server, which can then stream it to the other people in your jam. This architecture requires a server with adequate bandwidth, but has no firewall or NAT issues. OGG Vorbis is utilized for its great low bitrate characteristics and performance. Each user receives a copy of other users audio streams, allowing for each user to adjust the mix to their liking, as well as remix later. This uses more bandwidth than having a server encode a single stream, but has numerous benefits (including lower server CPU use and the client having the full multichannel data for later use).

NINJAM can also save all of the original uncompressed source material, for doing full quality remixes after the jam."


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 02:22 PM

That sounds fascinating, Nick, though I can't begin to understand it. But then I can't begin to understand how my ipad or the internet works. It's all magic to me, but that doesn't mean. I can't use it.

In time it'll all be made to be usable by people who don't understand it, and we can sit around and play together and see the people we're playing with. Maybe a few months of enforced quarantine (now apparently relabelled as "social isolation") might push us closer to experiencing that leap forward.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 04:57 PM

        McGrath of Harlow

If you are recording, yes - ish. Say participants concatenated. But you will only be able to hear to the previous person or two previous mixed, or three previous mixed etc depending on where you are in the chain.

If you are trying to sing in unison, and all hear all at the same time as yourself , the latency will defeat you.

Latency has stolen time, you are already behind the curve, how ya going to get it back?

Given the way the internet works, I am not sure you can even predict the latency. At any given point in time, packets (say = phonemes) go the route that is free, which may differ next packet. Latency, is related to the delay of the slowest packet. Think videos that buffer.

5G - er maybe - but not by the time the panic subsides.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 10:10 PM

As I pointed out, the chain could go round and round a few times, keeping on playing the same tune. Everyone would be playing along to accompany what they heard, and maybe sticking in a variation of there own. Playing for yourselves rather than for anyone listening. I've played in a lot of pub sessions like that.

Of course they'd all be hearing something slightly different from the others further on or further back.

It could be fun.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: GUEST,Experience with Zoom
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM

Hi folks,

My shanty group tried an online 'shout' (12 people) on Thursday on Zoom. Worked great for social chat but was a complete car crash when we tried to sing even the most basic song, because of the latency. Everyone was on fixed-line broadband, I think, and it seemed to affect everyone.

FWIW when I'm not shantying I also happen to be a software engineer specialising in real-time media (but I don't have a magic bullet, sorry!). Warning, tech stuff...

Latency in conferencing comes from:

- Encoding delays, particularly for video (we did try turning video off but it didn't help much)
- Transmission delays to the relay point and back (ping times)
- Protocol delays due to TCP retries (if used, may be UDP)
- Decoding delays

I think DaveRo above hits the nail on the head - the connections are all joining somewhere other than London then there's going to be much more latency. I guess I could capture and traceroute to find out...

What would be needed to do it right would be an audio-only system using a low-latency codec, either rendezvousing at a local server or in a direct mesh network using UDP (with STUN/TURN). The latter would halve the latency but it's far more complex to create (and relies on N-times upstream bandwidth, which many people might not have). I wonder if anyone has done this?

I'm continuing to research...


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 12:33 AM

We had a second Zoom song circle this afternoon. The host was very much on the ball, and she muted everyone but the person whose turn it was to sing. We sang along wholeheartedly, but the latency couldn't bother us. Trouble is, we couldn't have the beautiful harmonies we usually have.

I've been to a couple of meetings on Zoom this week, and there was no need for muting participants.

My wife has been going to Zoom meetings and sings this week, too.

If I'm a participant and not a host, do I have to register with Zoom, or do I just click on the link the host provided? I AM registered, but I don't know what would happen if I weren't registered.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:58 AM

Joe Offer wrote: If I'm a participant and not a host, do I have to register with Zoom, or do I just click on the link the host provided?
I tried that (I was writing a HOWTO) and it guided me through the installation of the zoom client. But it may just depend on what device and operating system you have.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 11:19 AM

Joe - If you're not registered you can still join a session; you just can't initiate one. (Tried it earlier by joining an Android tablet to my Ubuntu pc session. I'm looking into using it here in UK). When you join a session you'll just be prompted to download to software the first time.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 12:07 PM

I'm curious what social video software is being used
in this news clip...???

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-51995799/coronavirus-bar-mitzvah-celebrations-online

We tried using skype on one to one calls with with my mum a few years ago,
but gave up because of too slow unreliable broadband/mobile data connections..
[and relatives sat with mum not able to work the technology..]


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:59 PM

A Facebook Group (Public) called Cancelled Singing Sessions has just completed simulating aspects of the Inishowen Singing Festival which was to have occurred from Friday last until this evening. During its course a five hour singing session was organised by Dara Yeates (Dublin) and Michael Steen-Orr (USA) using Zoom. Over a hundred people participated with just over fifty online simultaneously and other on live stream to Facebook pages. It was however, One Singer One Song, as is the Irish way but take a look. There is a link there to edited highlights.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: GUEST,Lynn Noel
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 02:37 PM

I have a blog series on community singing sessions and virtual houseconcerts, as well as a Facebook page where I post real-time research. Here is the most recent post on Q&A for Online Sessions I: Is It The App, Or My Internet?

The post walks you through how you can check your latency and some ways to improve it. I'm working today on a second post in the series with an overview of recent online sessions and best practices for organizers and participants. If you're on Facebook, you can follow Digital Heritage Consulting at https://www.facebook.com/digitalheritageconsulting, and I'll try to post here on Mudcat as well.

I've also put together a three-part series Digital Houseconcerts in the Age of #COVID-19 for organizers seeking performance not participation and artists seeking payment for their work. Artists are hit hard by this pandemic, as we all know, and the two houseconcerts I've hosted in the last two weeks have significantly helped one touring and one local artist not just financially, but with hope and encouragement.

If you're interested in digging deeper into creative tech for digital heritage, I'd invite you to join my Facebook group for The Mermaid's Tavern: a Community DIY Digital Studio. I do 1:1 coaching there for organizers and creatives in this brave new world of ours.

Please reach out and contribute any sessions you're aware of to these calendars, and thank the volunteers for their important efforts in helping us all sing together.

Many of us are working as session leaders to manage latency, assist new conference callers, and evolve etiquette practices that take best advantage of the online medium and minimize the disappointments of not being able to see each other in real life and sing with each other in real time. My virtual sessions Live From the Mermaid's Tavern alternate every two weeks, with Chantey Sings on third Sundays and Ballad Sings on fifth/first Sundays. Here are the next two, and I hope you'll join us.

MARCH 29 Online Ballad Sing 2-5pm Live From the Mermaid's Tavern
https://zoom.us/j/3925118768

APRIL 19 Online ChanteySing 2-4pm EDT Live From the Mermaid's Tavern
https://zoom.us/j/662068656


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls
From: JHW
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:54 PM

I may be the only one fearing the net will overload if every on in the world is doing clever things on it. Can conferemce calls be set up on good old fashioned house phones on a wire?
Used to with the desk phones at work but no idea of system.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:48 AM

I haven't been to Pickers & Singers in Davis, California, since I moved up to the mountains in 2001. I got to sing with them tonight on Zoom, and saw people I haven't seen for almost 20 years. It works quite well if everybody but the current singer mutes.

JHW, I don't think I'd worry all that much about overloading the Internet. It handles large-screen movies quite well. The data used by Zoom and other conferencing software doesn't seem to be near what a bigscreen movie would use.


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM

Our Coventry Songwriters' Circle is planning to hold its monthly meeting using Zoom tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:57 AM

JHW wrote: Can conferemce calls be set up on good old fashioned house phones on a wire?
PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network) conference calling still exists. BT still appears to sell the service in the UK.

Many internet video conferening service allow you to join on an ordinary phone. You can join a Zoom Meeting on the phone (I've never done it). I doubt if you can run the meeting from a phone, so the organiser has to have an internet-connected client.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: sandtreader
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:01 AM

Thanks for all the responses folks (just joined properly, that was me waffling about codec latency and mesh networks above).

Looks like the latency issue is pretty fundamental. I think we'll have to revert to solos, which is very much against our grain as shanty singers! I'm wondering if we mute everyone except the leader, people could at least sing along even if they can't hear the rest of the group. We'll try it tonight!

Best wishes

Paul Clark
Falmouth Shout, UK


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:21 AM

We had our Wednesday Lenten service using Zoom yesterday evening, and ten of us plus a piano sang together. So I'd say that Zoom can handle music.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:35 AM

Leeneia, were the singers in the same room? The delay has killed us when the singers are in different locations. So, we mute all but the main singer and then sing along.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:43 AM

I'm wondering about bringing Robert Rodriquez into Zoom song circles. He's blind, and feeling especially isolated in New York. He has no computer, but can dial a phone. What does he need after that? To dial an access code? Can the leader mute him when he's not supposed to be singing?


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM

call me psychic, but I knew you were going to post that...


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:58 PM

I've been trying out Skype, Zoom and GoToMeeting but same issues over latency for singing. It's fine for a meeting that is chat but when we tried Skype and Zoom to do our Morrigan practice it just doesn't work. Time for solo slots but it is great to have interactivity in the virtual singarounds going on in the UK which seem to be springing up


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 PM

Tech zoom question: I tried to join something and the mod "accidentally" removed me then tried to get me back in and zoom kept saying I couldn't join as I had been removed. Nobody could figure a way around it, can y'all suggest something? I put Accident in quotes as said mod has tried to oust me before in person. But I got a ton of emails apologizing and asking me back in... With new links and all. Nothing worked.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: rich-joy
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:17 PM

First Up, I admit to knowing almost nothing about this stuff (but in time-honoured fashion, I'll try not to let that stop me commenting :)))


So many YT clips are now appearing of "Virtual" Choirs & Musicians performing "together" (esp since Eric Whitacre's beginnings almost 10 years ago!).
But of course, it's not as simple as it seems, esp for the technology-challenged amongst us (like me) - whether through lacking that kind of brain, or training, or, not having the right audio-visual equipment.

Meanwhile, folks are trying the various conferencing and catchup programs, and discovering that everyone's internet connections can be quite different, and that Mobiles Vs Home Computers can make a difference -
and encountering the issue of Latency - and more.

Here's one 11min15sec clip I came across from the UK, where he explains his Zoom methods for his 4 x Choirs, to keep learning and practising online.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXzs5qnPwg

Setting up Zoom Virtual Choir - Guy Bunce, UK   •Mar 21, 2020

I really hope it helps someone here. Interestingly, it has some 10,590 views so far!


AHA! I have just found his latest 14min43sec one :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FLYPvtN2HY

Zoom Online Choirs: Limitations & Other Options   Mar 27, 2020

and he also promises a new expanded fully comprehensive vidclip on the subject, during the next week!!


Cheers,
R-J


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:30 PM

Well, shucks, Rich-Joy. You may not know much about the subject, but your post was very helpful.
By the time this is over, we'll all be experts.

-Joe-

By the way, if anyone would like to organize an international Mudcat Zoom sing, post a link here. I'm hoping to do it sometime, but I've been too busy going to other Zoom gatherings. It has been great fun.


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:40 AM

Sarah - for a band practice (with relatively small numbers) you might try Nijam - see post by Nick above at 12:10 Nijam.

I haven't tried it, though I have downloaded a copy and compiled a client and server for my Ubuntu machine. I couldn't see precompiled versions, but they may be there.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: rich-joy
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:18 PM

Thanks Joe, I'm glad it was helpful.
I have been thrown in the deep end, researching possibilities for the Community Choir that I (used?!) to sing with!

I notice that every day on YT, (and thanks to Eric Whitacre's work starting 10 years back), there are more and more clips of "Virtual" choirs and musicians. Some are really excellent - but the expertise, equipment, and time, required to produce them is beyond the skill level (and desire!) of probably most of us!!

I'll just link to one of the many I've saved, coz it is from Wuhan, China - very eerie but very beautiful - both the city and the choir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZyLkQxALwk
Virtual Choir: Stay With Me, dedicated to Wuhan under coronavirus lockdown
"SSAATTBB Acappella composed by Cao Guanyu, a young female composer living in the city of Wuhan. Virtual choral singing: South China Normal University Choir Lyric: Stay with me, Stay together. Stay with me, Stay stronger. Face the sun, the shadows will 'behind you. It is still the most beautiful place in my heart. Sheet music is free for choirs. Thanks for your encouraging to Wuhan & China!?"
•Feb 18, 2020

But to end on a humourous note :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QL4ySGtuQQ
How did I end up in this virtual choir?!?!
i.e. If you're not mindful, this is how you'll look to everyone else in your group!!
•Mar 26, 2020


ENJOY!
Cheers,
R-J


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:14 PM

Joe - this 12 minute tutorial just appeared on my youtube recommendations..

"Remote audio collaboration IS possible - in real-time, and with high quality
14,175 views•Mar 20, 2020
"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmJUOkf0kE4

It could be worth a watch.
But it is primarily for experienced music tech users,who already use a DAW.
Not beginners or technophobes.

The principles outlined could suggest possibilities for further testing
applied to your specific requirements..???


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:16 PM

Forgot to mention the important bit,
it provides a working compromise solution for Latency...


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 05:21 AM

Hmmm not sure NINJAM will work for us as it looks like you have to upload a track and do quite a lot of set up. Others in the group are not at all techy and we had trouble all connecting to Zoom - in the end I had to set up a Skype session and walk them through !!! At the moment we are experimenting with the melody line singer singing live and we sing our parts against it with the mic muted - not ideal but we could then reord our versions and share. At least it is some practice


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:47 AM

I just spent two frustrating days with Zoom. While teaching one on one music lessons, me from my home studio and the student in their home, I discovered that the Zoom platform apparently doesn't allow more than one source of sound at a time. In other words, as soon as I tried to accompany the student, their sound cut off.

I've gone through the Zoom trouble-shooting stuff, and several Youtube videos describing how to set up music lessons with Zoom and none of them mention the issue. A huge part of how I teach involves duetting with students.

Any advice?


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 12:38 PM

BBC News:

Zoom under increased scrutiny as popularity soars


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Nick
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 04:59 PM

I am experimenting with Jamkazam but there is a fair learning curve and the set up something of a faff. But we’ll see


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Subject: RE: Singing on Conference Calls and Zoom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:09 PM

For some reason, this thread is drawing a lot of Spam, so I'm going to close it. If you'd like to discuss this subject further, please start a new thread. Thanks.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-


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Mudcat time: 9 April 2:29 PM EDT

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