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BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 20 - 11:57 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 20 - 12:08 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Mar 20 - 12:14 PM
DMcG 22 Mar 20 - 12:18 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Mar 20 - 12:28 PM
Iains 22 Mar 20 - 01:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM
Iains 22 Mar 20 - 02:11 PM
Iains 22 Mar 20 - 02:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 20 - 02:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 20 - 02:57 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 20 - 02:59 PM
Iains 22 Mar 20 - 03:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 20 - 03:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 20 - 03:52 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Mar 20 - 04:31 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Mar 20 - 07:45 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM
Iains 23 Mar 20 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM
Mr Red 23 Mar 20 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 04:45 AM
DMcG 23 Mar 20 - 04:47 AM
Iains 23 Mar 20 - 04:53 AM
peregrina 23 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM
DMcG 23 Mar 20 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 20 - 05:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Mar 20 - 05:58 AM
DMcG 23 Mar 20 - 05:59 AM
Iains 23 Mar 20 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM
Iains 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM
DMcG 23 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 07:29 AM
Rain Dog 23 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM
Iains 23 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM
peregrina 23 Mar 20 - 08:38 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Mar 20 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 20 - 09:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Mar 20 - 10:07 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Mar 20 - 04:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Mar 20 - 05:12 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Mar 20 - 05:17 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 20 - 05:30 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 20 - 05:56 PM
Iains 24 Mar 20 - 03:39 AM
DMcG 24 Mar 20 - 03:55 AM
Iains 24 Mar 20 - 04:19 AM
Rain Dog 24 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM
Joe Offer 24 Mar 20 - 05:49 AM
Iains 24 Mar 20 - 06:20 AM
Iains 24 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM
Joe Offer 24 Mar 20 - 07:33 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Mar 20 - 07:45 AM
Iains 24 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM
Joe Offer 24 Mar 20 - 07:59 AM
Iains 24 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 20 - 09:33 AM
Jeri 24 Mar 20 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 20 - 10:05 AM
Doug Chadwick 24 Mar 20 - 10:09 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Mar 20 - 10:43 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 20 - 12:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM
Iains 25 Mar 20 - 07:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM
Jon Freeman 25 Mar 20 - 11:06 AM
Workingtonman 25 Mar 20 - 11:18 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 20 - 11:53 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 20 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM
Nigel Parsons 25 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM
DMcG 25 Mar 20 - 12:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM
Iains 25 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM
Nigel Parsons 25 Mar 20 - 01:44 PM
Nigel Parsons 25 Mar 20 - 01:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM
DMcG 25 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM
Iains 25 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 02:25 PM
gillymor 25 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM
Iains 25 Mar 20 - 02:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 03:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 20 - 05:01 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 20 - 07:09 PM
Workingtonman 26 Mar 20 - 02:58 AM
BobL 26 Mar 20 - 03:30 AM
DMcG 26 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Mar 20 - 06:44 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 07:00 AM
Iains 26 Mar 20 - 08:17 AM
DMcG 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM
Workingtonman 26 Mar 20 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 09:39 AM
Iains 26 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM
DMcG 26 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Mar 20 - 01:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 02:43 PM
DMcG 26 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Mar 20 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 04:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 04:14 PM
Iains 26 Mar 20 - 04:23 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 04:34 PM
Stanron 26 Mar 20 - 04:50 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 05:10 PM
Stanron 26 Mar 20 - 05:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 05:34 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Mar 20 - 05:58 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 06:38 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM
Bonzo3legs 26 Mar 20 - 06:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 07:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 07:15 PM
Stanron 26 Mar 20 - 07:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 07:27 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 08:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Mar 20 - 08:41 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Mar 20 - 02:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM
DMcG 27 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Mar 20 - 06:09 AM
DMcG 27 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 06:50 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 06:53 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 07:10 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 07:14 AM
Donuel 27 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM
DMcG 27 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 07:40 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 07:41 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 07:48 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 07:49 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 08:13 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM
DMcG 27 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 08:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM
DMcG 27 Mar 20 - 08:57 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 09:17 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 09:21 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 27 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 10:00 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 10:33 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 10:45 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Mar 20 - 11:19 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 11:49 AM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 11:54 AM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 12:54 PM
DMcG 27 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM
Doug Chadwick 27 Mar 20 - 01:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 27 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 02:06 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 02:14 PM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 03:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 04:02 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 04:45 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 04:54 PM
Iains 27 Mar 20 - 05:35 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 05:53 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 06:16 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Mar 20 - 06:30 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 20 - 07:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Mar 20 - 07:58 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 03:20 AM
Iains 28 Mar 20 - 04:33 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 04:59 AM
Iains 28 Mar 20 - 05:24 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 20 - 05:30 AM
Workingtonman 28 Mar 20 - 05:51 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 05:56 AM
Bonzo3legs 28 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM
Iains 28 Mar 20 - 06:40 AM
Workingtonman 28 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 20 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 08:19 AM
Iains 28 Mar 20 - 08:41 AM
Workingtonman 28 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM
Iains 28 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM
Bonzo3legs 28 Mar 20 - 09:48 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 10:46 AM
Iains 28 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 28 Mar 20 - 11:56 AM
Workingtonman 28 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Mar 20 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 02:36 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 20 - 02:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Mar 20 - 03:28 PM
DMcG 28 Mar 20 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Mar 20 - 05:06 PM
Nigel Parsons 28 Mar 20 - 05:14 PM
DMcG 28 Mar 20 - 06:41 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 07:13 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Mar 20 - 07:36 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 20 - 08:29 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Mar 20 - 04:41 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Mar 20 - 04:55 AM
Iains 29 Mar 20 - 05:04 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 05:06 AM
Barb'ry 29 Mar 20 - 05:16 AM
DMcG 29 Mar 20 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 05:26 AM
Workingtonman 29 Mar 20 - 05:32 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Mar 20 - 05:32 AM
Iains 29 Mar 20 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 06:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 06:15 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Mar 20 - 06:25 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM
Iains 29 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 07:59 AM
Barb'ry 29 Mar 20 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 08:23 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 08:24 AM
Workingtonman 29 Mar 20 - 08:24 AM
Iains 29 Mar 20 - 08:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM
Doug Chadwick 29 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 29 Mar 20 - 08:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 08:42 AM
Doug Chadwick 29 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 08:55 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Mar 20 - 09:01 AM
Doug Chadwick 29 Mar 20 - 09:09 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Mar 20 - 09:22 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 10:02 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 10:03 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 10:04 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 29 Mar 20 - 10:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Mar 20 - 11:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 12:36 PM
Stanron 29 Mar 20 - 12:40 PM
Nigel Parsons 29 Mar 20 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 12:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 12:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM
Stanron 29 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 01:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 01:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 02:22 PM
Iains 29 Mar 20 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Mar 20 - 02:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 03:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 03:35 PM
Stanron 29 Mar 20 - 03:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 03:57 PM
Iains 29 Mar 20 - 04:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 20 - 04:11 PM
Stanron 29 Mar 20 - 04:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 04:22 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 29 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 20 - 07:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Mar 20 - 07:39 PM
Jeri 29 Mar 20 - 07:49 PM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 03:11 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 03:58 AM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 05:20 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 05:40 AM
DMcG 30 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 06:58 AM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 07:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 08:02 AM
DMcG 30 Mar 20 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 08:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM
Bonzo3legs 30 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM
Workingtonman 30 Mar 20 - 09:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 09:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 09:15 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 20 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 20 - 09:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 10:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 20 - 11:59 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 12:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM
Nigel Parsons 30 Mar 20 - 12:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 30 Mar 20 - 12:26 PM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 12:27 PM
DMcG 30 Mar 20 - 12:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 12:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Mar 20 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 01:14 PM
Workingtonman 30 Mar 20 - 01:16 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 20 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 01:56 PM
Iains 30 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM
Workingtonman 30 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 20 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 07:38 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 08:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 20 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 03:41 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 04:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 20 - 04:54 AM
DMcG 31 Mar 20 - 05:02 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Mar 20 - 06:16 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 06:18 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 20 - 06:33 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 06:42 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 20 - 06:54 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM
DMcG 31 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 09:34 AM
DMcG 31 Mar 20 - 09:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 09:41 AM
DMcG 31 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 09:44 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 10:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 Mar 20 - 10:28 AM
Workingtonman 31 Mar 20 - 10:38 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 10:48 AM
Raggytash 31 Mar 20 - 10:58 AM
Workingtonman 31 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 11:08 AM
DMcG 31 Mar 20 - 11:29 AM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 11:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 11:52 AM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 12:32 PM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 12:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 31 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 12:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 01:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 01:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 20 - 01:27 PM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 01:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 Mar 20 - 02:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM
Jim Carroll 31 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM
Workingtonman 31 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 03:54 PM
Iains 31 Mar 20 - 03:55 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 31 Mar 20 - 04:32 PM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 04:38 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 31 Mar 20 - 04:42 PM
Bonzo3legs 31 Mar 20 - 06:09 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 31 Mar 20 - 06:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 04:05 AM
DMcG 01 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 01 Apr 20 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 20 - 05:22 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM
Workingtonman 01 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM
Iains 01 Apr 20 - 06:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 06:33 AM
DMcG 01 Apr 20 - 06:45 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 20 - 07:01 AM
Iains 01 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 08:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM
DMcG 01 Apr 20 - 09:24 AM
Iains 01 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM
Workingtonman 01 Apr 20 - 10:36 AM
DMcG 01 Apr 20 - 10:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Apr 20 - 11:13 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 11:15 AM
Workingtonman 01 Apr 20 - 11:32 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 12:28 PM
keberoxu 01 Apr 20 - 01:25 PM
Iains 01 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM
Iains 01 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 20 - 02:10 PM
Iains 01 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 20 - 04:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 20 - 04:42 AM
Iains 02 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 20 - 11:14 AM
Iains 02 Apr 20 - 03:32 PM
Nigel Parsons 02 Apr 20 - 03:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 20 - 03:51 PM
Nigel Parsons 02 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 20 - 05:26 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 20 - 05:56 PM
Bonzo3legs 02 Apr 20 - 06:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Apr 20 - 06:48 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 02 Apr 20 - 10:03 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 04:08 AM
Iains 03 Apr 20 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 04:44 AM
Barb'ry 03 Apr 20 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 04:58 AM
DMcG 03 Apr 20 - 05:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 05:30 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 20 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 06:30 AM
Bonzo3legs 03 Apr 20 - 06:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 07:11 AM
Doug Chadwick 03 Apr 20 - 07:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 07:34 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 20 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM
Rain Dog 03 Apr 20 - 10:54 AM
DMcG 03 Apr 20 - 11:26 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 20 - 11:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 11:50 AM
Workingtonman 03 Apr 20 - 11:52 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Apr 20 - 12:04 PM
Workingtonman 03 Apr 20 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 12:35 PM
Raggytash 03 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM
Bonzo3legs 03 Apr 20 - 12:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM
Iains 03 Apr 20 - 01:23 PM
Bonzo3legs 03 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM
DMcG 03 Apr 20 - 01:46 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 01:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 01:58 PM
Iains 03 Apr 20 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 02:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Apr 20 - 02:52 PM
Bonzo3legs 03 Apr 20 - 03:36 PM
Bonzo3legs 03 Apr 20 - 03:39 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Apr 20 - 07:56 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM
Barb'ry 04 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM
DMcG 04 Apr 20 - 05:31 AM
Iains 04 Apr 20 - 06:33 AM
Bonzo3legs 04 Apr 20 - 06:42 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 20 - 07:34 AM
Workingtonman 04 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 20 - 07:46 AM
DMcG 04 Apr 20 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 20 - 08:00 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM
Workingtonman 04 Apr 20 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 20 - 08:45 AM
Bonzo3legs 04 Apr 20 - 09:22 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 20 - 09:32 AM
Iains 04 Apr 20 - 10:29 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 20 - 10:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 20 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Apr 20 - 11:12 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 20 - 11:14 AM
Iains 04 Apr 20 - 11:17 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 04 Apr 20 - 12:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Apr 20 - 12:34 PM
Iains 04 Apr 20 - 01:26 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 20 - 01:27 PM
Bonzo3legs 04 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 20 - 01:31 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 20 - 01:32 PM
Iains 04 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM
Raggytash 04 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 20 - 03:31 PM
Bonzo3legs 04 Apr 20 - 05:21 PM
Workingtonman 04 Apr 20 - 06:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Apr 20 - 07:28 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 20 - 07:42 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 Apr 20 - 02:32 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 03:09 AM
The Sandman 05 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 AM
Iains 05 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM
DMcG 05 Apr 20 - 04:40 AM
Bonzo3legs 05 Apr 20 - 04:50 AM
Iains 05 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 05:42 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 20 - 06:29 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 06:51 AM
Iains 05 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 07:03 AM
Monique 05 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM
Monique 05 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 20 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 09:01 AM
Monique 05 Apr 20 - 09:11 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 05 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Apr 20 - 10:07 AM
Iains 05 Apr 20 - 10:21 AM
DMcG 05 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 11:18 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 11:24 AM
Iains 05 Apr 20 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Apr 20 - 12:20 PM
Iains 05 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM
Raggytash 05 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 20 - 04:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Apr 20 - 04:18 PM
Donuel 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 PM
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Bonzo3legs 05 Apr 20 - 05:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Apr 20 - 05:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Apr 20 - 06:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Apr 20 - 06:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 05 Apr 20 - 08:18 PM
DMcG 06 Apr 20 - 02:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 02:54 AM
DMcG 06 Apr 20 - 03:02 AM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 03:25 AM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 03:32 AM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 03:59 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Apr 20 - 04:22 AM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 04:29 AM
Barb'ry 06 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Apr 20 - 05:02 AM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 05:13 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Apr 20 - 05:14 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 05:29 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 05:34 AM
Workingtonman 06 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 06:09 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Apr 20 - 06:11 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Apr 20 - 06:52 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 06:52 AM
DMcG 06 Apr 20 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 08:35 AM
DMcG 06 Apr 20 - 10:24 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 11:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Apr 20 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 12:16 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 06 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM
Iains 06 Apr 20 - 03:21 PM
Donuel 06 Apr 20 - 03:24 PM
Backwoodsman 06 Apr 20 - 03:32 PM
Donuel 06 Apr 20 - 03:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Apr 20 - 03:42 PM
Workingtonman 06 Apr 20 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Apr 20 - 04:03 PM
Raggytash 06 Apr 20 - 04:14 PM
Workingtonman 06 Apr 20 - 04:23 PM
Donuel 06 Apr 20 - 05:16 PM
DMcG 06 Apr 20 - 05:18 PM
Bonzo3legs 06 Apr 20 - 05:24 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Apr 20 - 05:57 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 20 - 03:27 AM
DMcG 07 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM
Iains 07 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM
The Sandman 07 Apr 20 - 04:35 AM
Workingtonman 07 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM
Rain Dog 07 Apr 20 - 05:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Apr 20 - 08:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Apr 20 - 12:02 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Apr 20 - 03:30 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 Apr 20 - 09:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Apr 20 - 09:56 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 02:52 AM
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Iains 09 Apr 20 - 02:56 AM
DMcG 09 Apr 20 - 03:20 AM
Iains 09 Apr 20 - 03:33 AM
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Steve Shaw 09 Apr 20 - 04:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Apr 20 - 06:31 AM
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Subject: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 11:57 AM

This is the last thread I will start on this subject. If those intent on shutting down any such discussion succeed in closing this one too, well done. You will have won and I hope you will be happy with that hollow victory.

To everyone else I can only repeat the previous advice. Don't troll. Don't flame bait. Don't respond to trolls and baiters. Politicians are fair game for criticism as long as it is not hateful, racist or sexist. Not that anyone in power will take notice of or even read a minority interest tiny forum. Other Mudcat members and others interested in folk music do read it though so be civil with each other.

Ok. That out of the way, let us begin.

I am quite impressed with the way Rishi Sunak comes across. Ok, I know he is a Tory and as such is probably against what I support but at least he comes across as professional and caring. I think Boris needs to watch out. Beside Sunak he looks like a 5 year old playing at being a statesman. Just my opinion of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:08 PM

Not just your opinion. It's mine too. And it's well worth reading Marina Hyde's Guardian article, the one that BWM referred to. It's fine to defend Johnson, but the groundswell I'm picking up on this is a general feeling that events constantly overtake him and that he's doing a very shoddy and indecisive job. That compounds the terrible damage that ten years of Toryism have done to the NHS, and that will come back to bite him in the weeks to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:14 PM

I agree too about Rishi Sunak. I see a PM in the making there. Hopefully very, very soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:18 PM

And mine. I think a current article by Andrew Rawnsley is worth a read as well. Picking a couple of paragraphs out for people who don't want to read the whole thing:


For government and voters alike, this crisis is a rushed tutorial in the case for the active and well-resourced state. Only government can take the exceptional measures required to curtail human activity in the hope that it will curb the spread of infection. Only government has the capacity to effectively perform as an insurer of last resort for the huge number of companies facing extinction unless they receive state aid. Only government can provide a safety net for workers deprived of the ability to earn their living because they are ill or trying to do the right thing by isolating themselves or because their employer is in trouble.
Welfare is bad. Balance the books. It is not the role of government to bail out failing companies. All those beliefs long worshipped in the churches of conservatism are being sacrificed in the fierce urgency of the now

….

While it is far too early to make any confident predictions about the longterm ways in which this crisis will reshape society, it has already upended many of the assumptions that have governed politics here and elsewhere for decades. It is hard to believe that a once-in-a-century event will not have some once-in-a-century consequences.



The actions that Rishi Sunak is taking are in many ways things you would expect from a left-wing stable, not a right-wing, or even a centralist one.

Many predicted the death of Labour after the last election (for good or ill). It is possible that the state of politics after this will be one where, for a time at least, the old labels mean nothing, and we end up with two quite different parties to the ones we are used to. (As long as FPTP continues, it will be essentially two parties.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:28 PM

Couldn’t agree more, DMcG. Johnson is slowly becoming an irritant and an irrelevance - he certainly is not displaying the qualities we have a right to expect of a Leader.

Methinks his time is drawing to a close.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 01:29 PM

No messing about with Boris!
Clear, decisive action in response to a crisis.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-extraordinary-uk-effort-to-produce-thousands-more-ventilators-11961559


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM

Good article about how industry is pulling out the stops to produce respirators. No mention of BoJo being decisive or otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

Angela Mercle has the virus, so does the wife of the Canadian PM, US Senator Rand Paul has it too. Fearless leader...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:11 PM

Who was this then? the invisible man?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/health-service-will-buy-as-many-ventilators-as-you-can-build-boris-johnson-tells-manufacturer


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:13 PM

Merkel has gone into quarantine after being informed that a doctor who administered a vaccine to her has tested positive for the Covid-19


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

If I were a tory activist..

Boris was a godsend populist front man figurehead to win an election..

I would have selected him to lead and win a tory govt in power.

Then I would have waited for the earliest inevitable opportunity to replace him with a real politician,
seriously capable of being a dependable long term prime minister...

But then Covid comes out of the blue...!!!

[..and Gove and Mogg are nowhere to be seen, quietly plotting...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:35 PM

"If I were a tory activist.."
"Dumb dee diddy diddy diddy diddy dumb"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM

Jim - you beat me to it.. now you have to write that entire song...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:57 PM

't's all I know
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:59 PM

Trump's campaign song came from the UK

yu cant alwys gt what you wahnt


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:00 PM

If I were a Labour activist I would be looking for a leader!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

Jim - looking at the lyrics to the original song..

They don't really need much modification..


So I'm sure it must have been done by some comic folkie sometime before...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:10 PM

Speaking from a serious standpoint..

It's much easier for folks to be a tory than a compassionate altruistic lefty...

I'm sure I wrote a degree essay about that nearly 4 decades ago...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM

Iains, the second link goes to a not found message. Regardless of that, your first link still does not mention BoJo as implied.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:52 PM

"So I'm sure it must have been done by some comic folkie sometime before.."
We can but try - 'Tis humble, but 'tis mine own

If I were a Tory activist
Dumb de diddy, dum dee diddy, dumb
I would kick Barmy Boris up the arse,
And tell Pritty Awful that her bullying's a farce
And send Creepy Cummings to The Tower

Needs work, but it's a start
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 04:31 PM

Needs a lot of work. The first line is three syllables too long.
If I was a rich man (6 syllables)
If I were a tory (also 6 syllables). The 'activist' part just doesn't fit.

I still remember some Irish scouts, at an international Scout camp in the Netherlands (1970s?) singing:
If I was a rich man,
diddle iddle iddle iddle iddle iddle iddle um
All day long I'd fiddle with me bum,
If I was a wealthy man - Hoi

Must be the folk process :)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 07:45 PM

Reminds me of the Father Ted episode, repeated last night, in which Ted kicked the bishop up the erse, then had to deny it until a photo of the act was projected large on the wall of the house...bloody genius...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM

I'm afraid we have to be careful of overstepping the mark lads
At a time when the world is in lock-down and we are all worrying about our future, the moderators are, unbelievably. shutting down threads they don't approve of - what next !!!!
We'd better stick to what theey approve of or we won't be able to talk to each other and turn to our kitchen walls for diversion
Sorry for the diversion
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:32 AM

While the lefties have a fine old time writing songs disparaging the extremely popular PM (yougov poll - more popular than Maggie Thatcher)

let us study the leader of the opposition:
1)He led his party to the most crushing defeat since 1935.
2)He made the position of Boris unassailable
3)Despite almost total obliteration at the polls herefuses to reesign.
4)Despite government and medical advice to stay at home and self isolate             like all his age group, he prats around the public stage confirming the public's view of him as a clown
5)Can you imagine the complete and utter shambles that would now result had labour been elected?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM

"While the lefties have a fine old time writing songs disparaging "
The above goes to you Iains
Your continuously aggressive tone has closed more threads than it has allowed to exist
That you can continue it at a time when we are all worrying about our futures is beyond belief
Politicians have always fair game - that you should turn on your fellow posters.... goes without saying
Give it a rest, if only for the sake of allowing these discussions to continue
Jim Carroll

If you don't want to talk to him, Jim, ignore him. It's too much work to pull out the fighting words in these thread. Move along, there is nothing to see here. ---mudelf in isolation


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:35 AM

Beside Sunak he looks like a 5 year old playing at being a statesman.

Would it be disingenuous of me to point out 'King Boris is breeding a few of those sorts to surround himself with! Having said that - there are plenty of proto-PMs positioning themselves who we should be alarmed about. Boris is a bit of a maverick (aka turncoat) so conventional tactics tend to run off him.

Frankly he is out of his depth with COVID-19 but he has experts and his current persona gives hope that he is listening to wise counsel, for once.

Sunak looks more like a steady hand, and boy do we need it right now. Boris has struck lucky yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:45 AM

"Sunak looks more like a steady hand,"
Makes sense to me, that the US had someone similar at this time
The aggressiveness towards China by referring to this disaster as "The Chinese Epidemic, far from encouraging international co-operation, is far more likely to a minute or so to the 'Doomsday clock', which already stands 100 seconds to midnight
The Science fiction writers must be burning the midnight oil chuirning out their 'after the unthinkable happens' novels
Frightening times with a moron, a glove puppet and 'Free Russia' at the wheel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:47 AM

08:32
British rail franchise agreements suspended
The British government is effectively nationalising the state’s railways for a temporary period, it has been announced.
Rail franchise agreements are to be suspended to avoid train companies collapsing due to the coronavirus, the Department for Transport (DfT) has announced.

===

Again, a far more left wing - dare one say Corbynite? - approach than one would expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:53 AM

Meanwhile government medical advice is to maintain social distancing and if over 70 or vulnerable self isolate.

Corbyn(70) is wilfully ignoring this request, and following his example: Photos in papers show crowds sunning themselves blithely ignoring requests to social distance.

Someone needs to be made a public example of to enforce the rules.
In certain admnistrations they would be in jail

No social distancing means needless transmission, more strain on the NHS.

What a stunning role model the labour leader is!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM

It is the time for the birth of compassion and time for the awareness that truly, we are all in the same boat: our survival depends on taking care of each other and sharing. Some cultures have remembered this interdependency more than others. There will be no survival without it.

I can't help thinking of King Lear in the storm scene, and the hard birth of compassion when he himself is at the mercy of the elements. Yes, we are the 'poor bare forked animal' with no claws, no fur, and no way to survive without the things that we provide for each other. The essential workers, those who restock supermarket shelves, drive the provision trucks, clean, collect garbage, and otherwise ensure that we are not raving naked and hungry unprotected from nature, are the foundation of our shared existence. I would like to force Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and a large segment of other Tories and US GOP to study this speech.

Poor naked wretches, whereso'er you are,
That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your looped and windowed raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these?

Oh, I have ta'en
Too little care of this! Take physic, pomp.
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel,
That thou mayst shake the superflux to them
And show the heavens more just


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:31 AM

Wise words there, peregrina.

When it comes to sending messages, I was struck during the last PM's broadcast that whoever laid out the room did not seem to be leaving 2m between all the chairs.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM

INTERESTING LESSONS
INTERESTING COMPARISON
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:50 AM

Social distancing is currently just advice, not "rules." Once it becomes "rules," then people could presumably be "thrown in jail" for breaking them. Of course, it would need to be one of those medieval dungeons so that transgressors would be isolated from other less evil prisoners such as murderers, armed robbers and terrorists...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:58 AM

I must say that I think I have seen it all now. Corbyn's fault that corvidiots are flooding parks and beaches! I tried, I really tried to be civil and reasonable but it is obviously pointless. I'm out of here.

I can only suggest that if anyone wants to discuss politics in an adult manner, then do not try to do it here. The wreckers have won. Leave them to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:59 AM

This morning my wife said that when she went for a walk yesterday with her neighbour they kept 6 millimetres apart.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:13 AM

Social distancing is currently just advice, not "rules." Once it becomes "rules," then people could presumably be "thrown in jail"

With the transmissability of this virus being higher than the common flu social distancing can be a matter of life or death.
Legislation cannot legislate for stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

"The wreckers have won."
They always do when they are allowed to


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-bill-what-it-will-do/what-the-coronavirus-bill-will-do


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

Well you can legislate to get people away from public places. It's happening in Spain and it's happening in Italy, as photos and videos in the media of deserted streets show. And what those photos and videos show is that here in the UK the government is way behind the curve. Too little, maybe too late. A massive problem we spotted, driving through Bude yesterday, was little crowds of teenagers in close proximity. We're getting lots of "advice" about how to keep the little darlings gainfully occupied at home from the likes of cosy, middle-class Woman's Hour, etc., but many parents will just let the kids go feral unless there's a lot more clout in the approach (yes, I know it was a sunny Sunday, but the weather's good, there are seven days in the week and schools are all out). It wasn't just kids either. We need stiff rules, not warm advice, from now on.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM

There is the suggestion that the government will amend their proposed legislation so the proposed rules have to be renewed every six months, instead of a two year sunset clause. That seems sensible to me: there seem to be few objections to the proposals themselves, but a lot of concern that they are not being kept longer than necessary.

I read somewhere that Hungary is proposing similar powers but with no sunset clause at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:29 AM

Just heard that, as Scotland seems to have been less effected, there's a rush to move up there
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM

Why do you bother Dave the Gnome?

There never seems to be much discussion on these threads. It seems to be a person or number of persons of a somewhat left of centre and a few people of a right of centre view, arguing the toss about SFA. The general view expressed here seems to be "if you did not vote the same way as us then you are a brainwashed twat, etc etc." Let us be thankful that the majority of people in this country do not slavishly follow any particular party line.

A good while back someone asked if anyone talked about these topics in the pub? From the personas displayed here by some of you, I cannot imagine you having a chat in a pub with someone who voted differently. if I met some of you in a pub and you carried on in the same manner that you post here, I would just walk away from you EVEN if you expressed some views that I agreed with.

I did go to the pub before the close down, and I did talk to others who did not vote the same way as me. No one was harmed as a result of those conversations. With any ballot you just have to choose the one box to tick, even if you might not agree with every single thing which that party/choice might stand for.

We live in interesting times. An article that was online a good few weeks back, said that in the last election here in the UK, people might have voted for Boris but have got Corbyn instead. Just look at the last budget.

I hope that you and your families all stay well in the coming months. We all need people to remain calm and moderate in their behaviour. This morning I was outside Morrisons, which was closed until 08.00 to the general public. Once they opened the doors to us, people did not rush in, they just went about their shopping in a normal manner. Bread and milk were available but some feckers had taken all the eggs.

Stay safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

THEY WOULD SAY THAT, WOULDN'T THEY ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

If there is one good thing to come out of all this with apparent food shortages and delivery slots, is that we may lose a little excess weight!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM

On a Zoom video-conferencing call with young Labour Party members on Friday evening, party chairman Ian Lavery repeatedly claimed that the devastating Coronavirus crisis offered “a great opportunity” for the Labour Party to advance politically. He thought he was talking privately to activists.

    “By the way when something like this happens, we’re going to see lots of our own dying as a consequence. But, you know apart from that, it’s going to give the fantastic battalion of Labour Party members, community champions out there a great opportunity of showing how Labour, and why Labour, is best when it gets on the front foot and best when it gets people together.

    We need to make sure that we do that, and community organising what a great opportunity it’s going to give us.“

It is an understatement to say this is beyond crass, this crisis is not a partisan opportunity, it is a global tragedy.Lavery should be ashamed of himself, happily discussing the political benefits of this tragedy in private


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Subject: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM

Saturday night the BBC news chided the public for ignoring social distancing advice, and going out on unnecessary trips, and failing to keep the required two metres apart.
So why did they include 'straight to camera' reports filmed in High Streets, and on Parliament Square? I assume these included the journalist, cameraman, soundman, and possibly others working closely together, outside. The reports could have been filmed in the studio, or read by the main newsreader.
Are the BBC being hypocritical in this?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:38 AM

Iains, we have a chance now to see what's important

It's more important to me, personally, today, to see what kindness I can put back into the world, whether I can stay safe and share or help others. We are all in this together. That's why I stopped back in here after years away, to acknowledge a community and place for dialogue.

When someone makes posts like yours I resort to the saying taught to me by older friends:
Consider the source.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:43 AM

I can imagine history exam questions in the future - "Compare the effect of the Corona virus with that of the 1918 flu epidemic on the world balance of power" !!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:28 AM

Making this a left-right battle is utterly (about as tupod as blaming Corbyn for overcrowded beaches, but not quite)
We criticise what is being done, those who disagree refuse to respond who speculate what Labour would have done if they were in charge
We all know which party supports a degree of equality of treatment and which favours the privileged - even those who uncritically support this lot describe demands for equal treatment a "envy politics" and compare even-handed medical treatment as "Communism" and argue that "it will not work"
So both on a practical and philosophical level - "no contest", I suggest

There is no reason to believe that reports on Cummings sidelining the elderly was not an accurate assessment of how this Government thinks - their supporters seem to have 'taken the fifth' on that one - a silence which speaks volumes

"1918 flu epidemic"
"And not just health systems were different, but also the health and living conditions of the global population. The 1918 hit a world population of which a very large share was extremely poor – large shares of the population were undernourished, in most parts of the world the populations lived in very poor health, and overcrowding, poor sanitation and low hygiene standards were common. Additionally the populations in many parts of the world were weakened by a global war. Public resources were small and many countries had just spent large shares of their resources on the war.
While most of the world is much richer and healthier now, the concern today too is that it is the poorest people that are going to be hit hardest by the COVID-19 outbreak.22"
NOTHING REALLY CHANGES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 10:07 AM

I've not watched the news yet today...

Is parliament and the Lords empty...???

How many of our MPs and Lords are 'over 70'...

Is domin.. errmm.. boris now running the country by skype from his sofa...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:52 PM

I thought Johnson came over very well for a change in making the announcement for lockdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:12 PM

But who was under the table operating him like basil brush, or sooty and sweep...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:17 PM

Interesting!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:30 PM

Oi, pfr, I can see the lower reaches of the Bristol Channel from my house (when I want to act posh, I tell people it's the broad Atlantic...) I don't want to see corpses floating by...

Just give us a listen, mods. We're a bunch of hairy-arsed Brit twats all right, but we're not brain-dead and we can see what's going on. And,though you can never, ever accept it, for reasons best known to yourselves, there is no cabal, no conspiracy, no usual suspects. I have this half-arsed theory that we don't have proper folkie forums here because "the English folk scene" (as opposed to the actual music...) tends to live up its own self-regarding bottom, and it's best viewed from a distance...There have been lively forums in Irish music, such as Jezza's TheSession and the moribund Irtrad, then there's that fish 'n' chipple of yours (yawn...)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:56 PM

Boris seems to get it, 3 months late. People are dieing here at a hundred a day and accelerating.

If one compares the 'decorum' in your Parliment with the US Congress you will understand the culture shock Americans can have with Brits.

The Pound is now at $1.15


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:39 AM

Back to the subject:
Clear    incisive action off Boris last night. real Churchillian behaviour. What a hero!
1)First he asked nicely for people to behave themselves and obey social distancing. He was ignored.
2)Now he has waved the big stick with the most draconian measures ever seen in peacetime Britain.
3)If his    edicts are still ignored the next escalation will be the army on the streets and   not to carry little old ladies shopping.

If a success, these measures will start to show results in another two weeks.

I   think the behaviour shown by a large sector of the public clearly
indicates why responses have to be staged and commensurate with what the dubious data dictates.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lessons-from-past-outbreaks-could-help-fight-the-coronavirus-pandemic1/

Lockdown has   worked in China, S.Korea and apparently the rate of infection is slowing in Spain.

As a total aside: It is interesting the actress Remainer-luvvie Emma Thompson, who in February won a lot of publicity by moving to Venice with her husband in the wake of Brexit, has fled back to a cottage and barn in Scotland after northern Italy became a no-go zone due to Coronavirus.
One can almost understand Emma’s decision, as the media’s advice on running away to second homes has been far from clear. On Saturday, the Daily Mail published the now-deleted article, “Britain’s brilliant boltholes: The best places to revel in splendid isolation, from the lonely Lancashire hills to the Welsh wilderness”, even recommending activities in case rural boredom sets in. Such behaviour is strictly contrary to official government advice (besides hacking off and overloading the medical facilities of the locals)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:55 AM

As I made a mess of saying yesterday, I am quite significantly affected (indirectly) by this lockdown, as three family weddings in the next few months are cancelled - even if the restrictions are relaxed in 3 weeks I don't see them being relaxed sufficiently for those to take place.

Nevertheless, I think it was a necessary action.

Equally, I don't think they go far enough. I haven't seen what is happening in the shops today, but I expect them to be stripped like nothing before. And that will continue for a few days. I don't really see how we prevent that without formal rationing. Just like the 'advisory' distance was ignored by a sizeable number of people, attempts by the shops to limit sales per customer are too easily cheated.

Some solution to the lost income for zero hour contract workers will also have to be found.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:19 AM

This legislation may have had an embyonic existance is some dusty Ministry canbinet, but until dusted off and brought into play all sorts of essential items will have been overlooked or tackled maladroitly. Clarity is only achieved when shortcomings are recognised and responded to. This will not happen overnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM

You all have the choice of setting up your own boards. How many of you have done that?

It is just a handful of people, not even two handfuls, who tend to post to these political threads. To what end? Yours (and mine) amusement? I certainly don't think anyone ventures down here for political enlightenment. If they did I would be worried about them.

I came here originally for the music section. I do read quite a few of the posts there and I appreciate the information that I have gained from quite a few of the threads. Even there so many of the threads end in the usual argumentative tedium, trotted out by the usual suspects. I simply choose to scroll past those posts. The shame is that some of the usual suspects also post stuff that I do enjoy and find of interest. Just a matter of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

We live in interesting times. I am sure that we all have more important things to concern ourselves with. I hope that you and yours stay safe.

Now, give us a song will ya'?

PS

Please ensure that you wash your hands after reading this post.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 05:49 AM

Far be it from me to hold punkfolkrocker up as a paragon of virtue, but he is. He's feisty, and he makes it known when he doesn't like something. But he doesn't get nasty or angry. He always has a good sense of humor, and he's often hilarious. And he seems to have a good time here.

If we all could lighten up and follow the sterling example of PFR, I think we'd all have a good time here.

I notice that there are very few gentle people and almost no women who participate in these long, angry threads. I think the animosity scares them away. People often tell me that they don't come to Mudcat because they don't like the animosity. I feel bad about that.

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 06:20 AM

PFR takes a position I may not always agree with but he manages to put it across without incendiary unsupported statements.
Perhaps a lesson for many!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM

and now for something completely different.
The senseless British tourist seen being arrested in a Facebook video which has gone viral has been identified as Labour councillor, Unison staff member, and three time Labour Party parliamentary candidate, Joanne Rust. Last week she was dramatically arrested having been dragged from a swimming pool in Tenerife for breeching Spain’s strict hotels quarantine rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM

You could start by stamping on that post, mods. We know precisely what he's up to, and I reckon you do too.


No, we don't. Not without looking it up. Most of this British fighting words stuff is gibberish on this side of the pond. That's why you would do better to ignore than to expect we know what the hell you are fighting about.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:33 AM

Steve, am I correct in thinking that both The Session and Gaughan's forum were members-only? Our tradition is to be an open forum. We changed to members-only in the BS forum only reluctantly, and we won't do that in the music forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:45 AM

It has to be said yet again, but the one and only way to defeat the trouble maker is to completely ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

Well Mr Shaw without starting WW3 you own coterie is very good at posting all sorts of unsubstantiated whispers and rumours undermining the government of the day. IF everone listed the facts on which they base their arguments the arguing would drop dramatically. You would be nonexistant for a start, having never constructed a link in your life. I present facts and interpretation of facts. How many posts by the left have been purely ad hominem attacks because the argument could not be refuted.
I suggest any contentious post without supporting facts immediately generates a week suspension.
My post above is documented, proven and with video evidence. The fact you do not like the substance of the post does not alter the fact it is true. Live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:59 AM

I don't know what the hell Iains is talking about, but seems to me that it is purely political, which isn't prohibited here.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

Joe: FYI

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8144171/British-woman-dragged-Tenerife-pool-police-hard-left-unionist-rabble-rouser.htm
and

https://order-order.com/2020/03/24/labour-candidate-arrested-spanish-swimming-pool-breeching-quarantine/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE5UmxWMOPs


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 09:33 AM

As we appear to be stuck with this feller, parhaps it's worth reminding people of this fact
He is an open supporter, if not a member, of a Neo-Nazi organisation and
has advocated in support of the criminal behaviour of the leader of one
of the Britain’s leading ultra-right groups, ‘The English Defence League’
When Robinson was jailed several years ago for attempting to ‘pervert the
course of justice’ by interfering in a trial that was taking place in the
British courts, Iains began publicising a petition circulating on the
internet to free him
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 09:40 AM

Gaughan's forum was members only, and you had to be approved to get in.
What's ironic about that is that Dick once posted in Mudcat that he wouldn't join because he didn't like cookies. Things change as people adapt.

This place was created to discuss music, not provide an arena to fight in, which is undoubtedly why the moderation doesn't make those fighters happy. I doubt that ANY would. It's a terrible shame that there's no place on the Internet to discuss British politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:05 AM

Sorry Jeri, I don't understand
Yes, Mudcat was created to discuss music, but the organised was astute enough to realise that some of us had other interests and was generous enough to allow us a place to discuss it here
That you consider healthy, sometimes enthusiastic debate as "fighting" is your prerogative. of course; some of us "healthy, sometimes enthusiastic debate"
It's what happens hen people take their interests seriously
There is a great deal of healthy, sometimes enthusiastic debate and politics, football.... ans all other aspects of life in Britain at present
Myby the Trump administration has managed to stamp it out in the US - I wouldn't put it past their trying !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:09 AM

This place was created to discuss music, not provide an arena to fight in

Join in a thread about source singers, Walter Pardon, Ewan MacColl, the quality of modern folk clubs or "what is folk?", and you can cover both bases. (Add your own topics to the list as you feel fit!)

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:43 AM

Joining the Gaughan forum was no harder than joining any other forum. One massive difference is that anonymity wasn't allowed, though you could still use your pseudonym. I utterly agree with that (and have always used my real name on any forum I've been on). I hear mucho bullshit from people who think so much of themselves that they feel that "for professional reasons/insert own excuse" they must remain anonymous. Maybe there are one or two that that might justifiably apply to, people who have been personally targeted by past trolling, for example, but anonymity on this forum has all too frequently been used by trolls, and there are many well-known musicians and song-collectors, etc., here who use their real names cheerfully. The mods should have a straight line to every member's real name and email address, and, if you don't want to join, tough luck. You have no good reason not to do so. It honestly doesn't hurt, does it?Several good threads above the line have been wrecked by a stalking and garrulous ex-member in recent weeks, but the mods prefer to blame Jim instead. Of course, members-only wouldn't solve every problem here. Back to my post on consistent moderation then...And do try to get on with each other better...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 12:00 PM

Yup - that's the one
"A petition has been set up by his supporters on change.org calling for Theresa May to free him.
"Tommy Robinson has been arrested and jailed for reporting on Muslim grooming gangs," it says."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM

I've never been called a "paragon" before..

I suppose I'd better look it up in a dictionary before I get kneejerk reaction offended,
and complain to a mod...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM

"paragon - "I suppose I'd better look it up in a dictionary"
Not sure, but I think it might be referring to a missing British soldier during the Northern Ireland conflict :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:55 AM

Prince Charles tests positive for Coronavirus


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 10:32 AM

Well that might solve that inconvenient problem for royalty fans
who'd prefer William next...

..useful silent targeted assassins, are pandemics...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM

Could have been worse - he might have had Andrews problems and caught something else
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:06 AM

I've never been called a "paragon" before..

I suppose I'd better look it up in a dictionary


A Paragon is a Clifford Essex banjo. The tenor versions have some popularity in Irish music, probably helped by Barney McKenna of the Dubliners playing one for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:18 AM

i don't know if charles has had much contact with his parents but wonder if they are unwell. i don't really watch tv but have not heard much from the queen - it is her role to appeal to and try to reassure the country at times like this. and it wouldn't do any harm if some of the younger members were helping with the national effort. forgive me if i've missed it but they could be doing a lot for people who like that sort of activity


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:53 AM

The yarn goes that he last saw mother on the 12th but has only been infectious since the 13th. Lucky queer old dean, eh? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:01 PM

And I note that many a big world leader thinks that Boris has screwed up big time on this pandemic. Too little, too late, lessons not learned, bollox-speak about getting it done in twelve weeks (stick that on a red bus, Boris), NHS seriously run down after ten years of Toryism, can't get the kit to hospitals, can't get more than a next-to-useless 5000 tests a day done (even his old mucker Jeremy *unt - with apologies to Jim Naughtie - has bollocked him for that)... Nearly got me 'ead ripped off for saying that this government is killing people, didn't I...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM

"The tenor versions have some popularity in Irish music"
Not in Clare they don't
The co-founder of the Willie Clancy Summer School, the late Muirís Rochain was pressurised into eventually including them in the School after 40 years
He reluctantly agreed saying "We'll give them a try, but we don't want to encourage them buggers too much, do we"
Lovely man
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM

pfr:
Is that the same BBC News who were saying 3 hours ago that: Coronavirus: NHS capacity 'won't be breached at national level' on their online news channel?: Here

If they've repudiated that claim since, they haven't let their online news channel know.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:49 PM

UK coronavirus mass home testing to be made available 'within days'

As yet, we have little detail of this, but I hope the instructions that come with it as absolutely clear, because misuse could lead to a massive rise in infections. I am basing this on what little has been said so far, but it could change when we get more detail.

I fear that a lot of people who have a test that shows them to be clear will interpret that as meaning they can go out safely. The government and medics will really need to hammer home that is the exact opposite of how to understand the test. The 'best' result is that is shows you have the antibodies, at which you then stay in isolation for another two weeks. Only then is it likely to be safe to go out.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM

Nigel - remind us if you are one of those ideologically motivated beeb bashers,
grateful for any opportunity to give the BBC a sly kicking...???

Iains - why would anyone in their right mind even think about Piss Morgan [spellcheck...???],
let alone mention him in this thread...

It actually might have been,
"Keith Neal, emeritus professor of epidemiology of infectious diseases, University of Nottingham"..
Though I'm not absolutely certain...?????????????????
Nottingham rings a bell for some reason..

btw.. the wife's joke was ok enough, but might get deleted here...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM

Last week, Ian Donald, Emeritus Professor at the University of Liverpool, shared a short thread on Twitter explaining why the Government’s approach could be very effective, while noting that it also had its risks.

Before tough measures were introduced, Mr Donald wrote: "The Government's strategy on coronavirus is more refined than those used in other countries and potentially very effective.

"But it is also riskier and based on a number of assumptions. They need to be correct, and the measures they introduce need to work when they are supposed to.

"A UK starting assumption is that a high number of the population will inevitably get infected whatever is done – up to 80 percent.

"As you can’t stop it, so it is best to manage it."

Looks like Dominic's request for freaks and weirdos had results. The accuracy and efficacy of their forecasting will be seen in coming days.

https://newslanes.com/coronavirus-action-plan-how-dominic-cummings-real-strategy-could-be-most-effective/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM

Johnson appears to be taking a leaf from Trump's book and running miles behind everybody else, then taking the credit for having thought of it first
Chetlenham was typical of the crassness of ignoring advice


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:44 PM

Nigel - remind us if you are one of those ideologically motivated beeb bashers,
grateful for any opportunity to give the BBC a sly kicking...???


I wasn't bashing the BBC, but pointing out that their current position (per their website) didn't agree with your memory of a quote you made which you admitted that you were unable to attribute.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:46 PM

DMcG:The government and medics will really need to hammer home that is the exact opposite of how to understand the test. The 'best' result is that is shows you have the antibodies, at which you then stay in isolation for another two weeks. Only then is it likely to be safe to go out.

I understood that once one had the virus (or antibodies showing one had had the virus) the quarantine time was 7 days. 14 days is for your family, who may still be incubating the virus.

100


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM

Nigel - it's real life as it unfolds..
Rolling news headlines interspersed with shoehorned in live interviews..
While home viewers are trying to digest 'latest' info and advice,
despite domestic distractions..
A headline reporting boris's bluff 'n' bollox from 3 or 4 hours ago,
may not have been updated as rapidly as you require...

btw.. are 24/7 news channels now operated by overwhelmed emergency skeleton teams,
just so they can even stay on air...

Well done Aunty Beeb, keep up the good work as well as possible
in these extraordinarily trying times...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Nigel - BTW.. I never "admitted" anything - that's a naughty twist of emphasis by you..

I merely "accepted" I was unable to read the academic's name and University caption at that precise time...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Yes, Nigel, you are probably right that seven days will be enough. That will also be something I hope they make clear when they start rolling the test out. But it was more how people treat the 'all clear' that concerns me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM

1)Johnson appears to be taking a leaf from Trump's book and running miles behind everybody else, then taking the credit for having thought of it first
Chetlenham was typical of the crassness of ignoring advice

2) Mr Donald wrote: "The Government's strategy on coronavirus is more refined than those used in other countries and potentially very effective.
author number one qualifications ex sparky
author number 2 qualifications BA; MSc; PhD; CPsychol; AFBPsS. Professor Psychological Sciences(Emeritus) research; Behavioural factors in Anti-Microbial Resistance.

Well who to believe? Life is such a challenge at times!
Whose advice did Boris ignore? We look forward toyou offering enlightenment! Are you trying to say Boris ignored his own experts, or you feel your expert is more qualified? or are you saying you are more qualified tomake the judgement call.

You accept IPCC pres offerings as valid yet they are based on vastly more variables and models of proven uncertainty, or was that new runway in the Maldicves designed for flying submarines?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:25 PM

Trum seems to have contacted a brain-eating virus
Despite it being announced that the US is due to be the next epicentre of the spread he has annonced that he expects all the churches to be full at Easter in a few weeks time
He apparently has his advisers beside him at news conferences who immediately contradict what he has just said
The analysis is that he has decided to put the economy before the well-being of the American people
I hope to go his British poodle has instinct enough to head for the bushes
Were the Yanks so bad as to deserve a leader that bad - I always got on with the ones I met
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

A brain-eating virus would have starved to death in trump's cranium.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

"Well who to believe? Life is such a challenge at times!
Whose advice did Boris ignore? We look forward toyou offering enlightenment! Are you trying to say Boris ignored his own experts, or you feel your expert is more qualified? or are you saying you are more qualified tomake the judgement call.

You accept IPCC pres offerings as valid yet they are based on vastly more variables and models of proven uncertainty, or was that new runway in the Maldicves designed for flying submarines?
"

if that's aimed at me..
you wasted your time, I'll ignore your attempt
to drag me into a pointless argument of your own concoction..

But if it was aimed at someone else.. good luck...

That's why I start my posts with:

"Name of mudcatter - well.. I disagree with your propaganda.. etc.. etc..."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM

"if that's aimed at me.."
It wasn't he seems to aim everything at whoever will listen in the vain hope somebody is
Or maybe that's the royal "we" - h seems to spend a great deal of time talking to himself nowadays - Baccy's right - about time
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:58 PM

PFR you were the last person on my mind.
I tried to make the point not veryclearly that potentially the error bar on all the estimates is quite large. The data is patchy and some of doubtful validity. The superforecasting techniques apparently used by the government is supposedly a little more accurate forecasting tool that other techniques.
The over riding concern is to balance the needs of patients, the NHS and economy. The intention is not stop infection but control   the rate of spread. It is not an easy task as letting the economy sink into the ground also has an impact on mortality figures down the road. If facilities are swamped, pensioners will go to the wall, not because they are exopendable but because they will tie up vital resources for a time period that would probably treat 2 younger fitter patients.
These decisions are not easy and far from clear cut. This is completely outside the normal realms os experience and events require judgement calls on the fly. They will not all be correct when studied with hindsight. That is life.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:02 PM

"PFR you were the last person on my mind."

I'll happily accept that.. if Piers Morgan is nearer the front of your mind...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

Iains - That was a good post, and the Iains persona I can more positively relate to in debate...


Today's news of the covid death of a 21 year old UK woman with no underlying health problems,
is a significant cause for concern...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 05:01 PM

Well I may be out of date as I type this, but I understand that the death of the young woman "caused by coronavirus" is currently just a claim by her close family. Not saying it isn't true, but let's get confirmation of this before we start getting all scary about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:09 PM

So BigEars gets a test, even though he's not in hospital, unlike everyone else not in hospital, and he's travelled to his second/third/fourth home, against all the advice about travelling to your second home that everyone else is expected to adhere to (we're almost at the point of throwing flour bombs at the selfish braindeads who have been coming to Cornwall in their droves in caravans, motor homes or to seek refuge in their second homes...). It's still good old little Britain, innit, one law for them, one for the plebs...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:58 AM

'What are the safe distances for forelock-tugging, arse-licking, gun-loading and other personal services your majesties?'

'one doesn't bother with that nonsense, witchell'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: BobL
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:30 AM

Trump seems to have contacted a brain-eating virus
To quote Dorothy Parker - "How can they tell?"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM

The performance of Nadhim Zahawi on Newsnight last night (12:08 minutes in) was frankly embarrassing. If that was supposed to reassure the government is on top of things, it failed dismally. You cannot agree to both the statements the UK has 8,000 ventilators and it has 12,000 unless you are able to explain the discrepancy, and he could not. And things went downhill from there, in my opinion. He was certainly unable to give confidence that we might have the ventilators in time for the anticipated peak in a few weeks time.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:44 AM

Steve Shaw's comments about 'big ears' may have some relevance, but they sound like sour grapes. In fact, identifying the Prince of Wales as 'big ears' suggests some degree of envy there.
The Telegraph yesterday made clear that he was due to be staying at Birkhall, and that, having been in close contact with Prince Albert of Monaco (already tested positive), he was right to be tested.
With health being a devolved matter in Scotland, the testing criteria there may differ from the criteria in England.
Telegraph


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:00 AM

I'm very happy with the ears I've got, Nige.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:17 AM

You cannot agree to both the statements the UK has 8,000 ventilators and it has 12,000 unless you are able to explain the discrepancy,
According to the Dpt. of Health and Social care the NHS currently possesses 5,000 adult ventilators and 900 child ventilators. Private health care has another 1200. These are figures from early March. A sorce quotes a capacity to build 400/week Hamilton Medical in Switzerland, but many of those will servuce existing contracts.
It is by no means clear where the additional 900/4900 have comefrom. Most military hospitals have closed but may supply a small number, perhaps another small number are stockpiled. With the situation in flux a definitive figure is impossible to derive, it likely changes by the day.
Yet more negativity from the usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM

Not surprisingly, you miss the point. It was not up to you to explain the discrepancy. It was his job to explain the discrepancy. For example one possible explanation might have been - and I am not saying it is, but it could have been - "We have 8000 actively in use, and another 4,000 have been received into our distribution centres. They are going through the standard quality checks before going out to the wards. That process should be completed by the weekend."

A nice, clear account of the reason for two different figures. And any other reasonable explanation would have not only sufficed, but would have shown the government to be on top of the situation. Instead, they could not explain it and it is left to others to scrabble for ways that might - or might not - account for the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:51 AM

while i have always been a red/green old peace and love type socialist i too love our countries. these are some of the things i love - pubs and how i can go into any or most, understand what the atmosphere is and behave accordingly, good beer, beautiful countryside especially in the highlands, people around small club football in particularly, but good football played well. and other niche interests of many older working men. music tradition, live music, festivals particularly, the radical tradition - george orwell,tony benn, michael foot to caroline lucas - socialist climbing and reading groups type of thing. our language and the literature that has come from it. ivor cutler and michael marra to karine polwart and richard thompson among many others. i love our dry wit and self deprecation and how we will never accept a fascist (in the last euro elections green mayor majid majid, muslim refugee was elected with over 200,000 votes while yaxley-lennon got 2/3 thousand.) or any self-important bull-shitter. i could go on as i'm boring myself - (though i'm sure you are all fascinated!) long and short of it is - i like just about everything except what comes from the tories and their war and royal family driven establishment - what they tell me is patriotism is vast inequalities and broken lives. telling a generation of our young men to walk in an orderly fashion toward german machine guns is not patritism - it is a hideous crime against our people that must never be forgotten or forgiven
blah...blah....bla...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 09:39 AM

"Covisiousness" of course - can't get my head around new words, as good as they are
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM

The EU fiddles while Rome burns.

Von der Leyen
“The single market has to function,” she said.

“It is not good when a member state takes unilateral action. I have seen travel bans and controls put in place. But let’s look together… certain controls may be justified but action has to be proportionate.”

After trying to retain control over the United Kingdom’s state aid rules in post-Brexit talks, the Commission last night sanctioned a £10.7 million Danish scheme to refund events canceled to prevent the spread of coronavirus.
Best not talk about confiscated surgical masks and handcleaner bound for the UK


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:15 AM

"He was pointing out that all levels of UK lefties are presenting negativity and fault finding criticism..."

No he wasn't. He was pointing to the whingeing of ONE left-wing celebrity, namely Emma Thompson, as complained about by ONE "news"paper columnist. Comment is free but facts are sacred. Read the article (holding your nose, preferably).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:29 AM

Waste of time Steve
Britain left Europe in order to go it alone and not have to be forced to co-operate with other countries in a non-crisis situation - now, at a time of crisis, he whinges at other groups of countries who decide to , guess what "go it alone and not have to be forced to co-operate with other countries"
I wonder what assistance Britain is offering to Europe at the present time!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM

"Best not talk about confiscated surgical masks "
Best not
At present the death toll in Britain is in the low hundreds and less than 1%
In Europe the death rate averages 4 to 5%, in France around 2,500 have died
Had the situation been reversed a and surgical equipment been passing through Britain heading for France, does anybody honestly believe that our lot would allow it to pass though
Flag-waggers like our friend would be screaming themselves hoarse shouting "traitor" - so would bumwipes like the Daily Mail, who headlined this ***** nonsense
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM

Brexit or Breathing?

It seems crazy to me to put so much trust in Dyson getting a ventilator ready when it looks like it will be September at the earliest for mass production, whereas we need it in a few weeks at most. By some accounts I have read, there is a factory in Galway that is moving from an 8hr workday to a 24h one, but we won't get any of those as they are destined for the EU scheme.

Others people will, undoubtedly, have a different opinion, which I imagine will be some variation of "nothing to worry about, we are British so will solve it."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:53 PM

Did anyone ever hear of furloughing before?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:58 PM

Give it a few years and the tories will probably erect memorials and statues
to the brave front-line essential workers
who gladly sacrificed their lives for Britain...

That'll be a glorious PR photo opportunity...!!!

My wife's deputy head is now self isolating with a cough,
after one week baby sitting a handful of essential worker's kids..

She's in the 50 - 60 risk group...

My mrs is scheduled for her brave essential service on the compulsary rota,
during the predicted peak..

She's nearer 60...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

Good luck to you both PFR - hope all goes well for you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:43 PM

Jim - cheers, I look forward to your posts here..

.. well if they weren't so rapidly deleted...

But fortunately I managed to catch some of your today's 'disappeared' earlier writing, just in the nick of time...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM

I see the Government is now saying the failure to join the EU scheme was 'an administrative error'.

why is the world plagued by these administrators who keep doing things on their own without those on authority knowing anything about it? Odd isn't it?

It could not just be a threadbare excuse, could it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:23 PM

I thought the Tory-Brexiteer-Banana-Bunch were fed up with 'unelected bureaucrats' running things?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:59 PM

BWM - maybe dom is hoping the one's not already weeded out
will be taken care of by targeted covid infections...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:05 PM

Thought I'd posted a reply PFR - must have been deleted :-)
I hadn't realised there had been any deleted today - must be losing my touch
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:14 PM

a little deletion here, a little deletion there..

that's the first baby step towards book burning...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:23 PM

Indeed PFR. May you and your better half keep safe.
With talk of authortarianism it is worth pointing out that the Corvid-19 special powers act was rattled through both houses with barely a whimper from either side of the house. The same for passage through the Lords.
Special times call for special powers. Unfortunately the act only requires review in 6 months, automatic repeal unless extended would be a safer way to go. Government takes very easily,giving back is always a struggle.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:34 PM

If you're a Tory voter, and you stood outside tonight to applaud the NHS, that same NHS that the Tories have systematically run down for ten years, and which now has thousands of its workers put in harm's way because you Tories simply don't care, you're a hypocrite, and you should hang your head in shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:50 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: If you're a Tory voter, and you stood outside tonight to applaud the NHS, that same NHS that the Tories have systematically run down for ten years, and which now has thousands of its workers put in harm's way because you Tories simply don't care, you're a hypocrite, and you should hang your head in shame.
Negativity and criticism. Bring it on!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:10 PM

Nope. It's a challenge to you Tory voters. It's a fact that the government you elected, over a whole decade, has run down our health service. Just look at what's happened to A&E. Just look at what's happened to waiting lists for consultants and operations. Just look at how we've leaked away thousands of doctors and nurses. Just look at those disgraceful scenes of patients dying on trolleys in hospital corridors. I've just waited six bloody weeks to see my GP. The upshot is that we now have tens of thousands of health workers who haven't got the kit to keep them safe. We haven't got the ventilators. There isn't the testing that is so crucial. Contact tracing doesn't happen. It's a shambles, and to point that out isn't negativity. You're free to contradict, with facts, what I've said. Your post addresses nothing. It's just an attempt to sidestep. Defend the party you voted for by all means. But do it with facts. And I won't even ask if you stood outside to applaud.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:26 PM

The 'facts' are that Labour negativity and criticism played a significant part in it's latest political defeat. The voting public dismissed the underlying dishonesty and I hope will continue to do so in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:34 PM

someone mentioned sidestepping...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:58 PM

Well it's very strange that this wonderful Conservative government has spent approaching £30m on a fantastic new A & E unit at Croydon University Hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:38 PM

Answer the question, Stanron. If I'm wrong about what your party has done to the NHS, contradict what I've said. With facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM

That's progress, Bonzo. What about just about every A&E department in the country failing by miles to meet its waiting time target? What about the ones that have been closed down?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:59 PM

I can't speak for other areas. We used to have an A & E at our private hospital back in the early 90s which I used on one occasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:03 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:15 PM

Apparently no longer any night time A&E between Bristol and Taunton...!!!

Supposedly a long term temporary measure..
More like testing the water for a full 24/7 closure...???

So how many minutes do you have left to live from heart attack to Ambulance pick up..

.. and that's a Conservative heartland populated by a significant elderly demographic..


.. if the tories an do that to their own kind, their own loyal voters...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:16 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Answer the question, Stanron. If I'm wrong about what your party has done to the NHS, contradict what I've said. With facts.
This is a good example of the underlying dishonesty of Labour's attacks on the government over the NHS. Remember the financial crisis of 2008. A deficit in National Economics inherited from Labour which saw National Debt growing at a rate that can only be called out of control.

Had the Conservative Government not brought Public Spending under control our current position would be far worse than it is. You might point out that National Debt has grown since 2008 but if spending has not been cut, the current debt would have been far higher. Despite the low interest rates an even larger part of tax income would have gone into paying interest.

And none of this takes Baby Boomers into account. I get the impression that the term may have changed it's meaning recently but originally it was the boom in births in the UK as serving men came home after the war. 1946 to 1948 saw a boom in births. This lot are now in their 70s and needing the NHS. The commercialization of bad food has led to an epidemic of obesity and diabetes. We are now, mostly, a nation of fatties. More drain on the NHS.

But, Hey!, we'll ignore overspending, baby boomers, HIV, obesity and an overall less active lifestyle and let's just blame it all on the Tories! That worked well in the last election didn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:27 PM

..what...!!!???

Hello, 2020 calling...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:00 PM

More like, Hello? Delusion calling! The Tories have now had ten years. Trying to shift attention to what Labour did in an election campaign does absolutely nothing to address what devastation you Tories have wreaked on public services, including care, education and the NHS. Once again: if you don't agree with that, give me the counter-argument with evidence. I don't want to hear any more excuses about what you inherited from the last Labour government, which, as a matter of FACT, handled the GLOBAL financial crisis of 2008 as well as or better than most other countries. You've imposed unnecessary hardship on the most vulnerable for the last ten years, applying "austerity" only to the poorer sections of society. You imposed a draconian and inhuman benefits system that has resulted in countless premature deaths, destitution and suicides. There are more people sleeping on the streets than ever before. We have the bloody disgrace of the major industry of food banks. You froze the pay and screwed the pensions of millions of public sector workers. At the same time you allowed feckless bankers to keep on raking in their bonuses and you continued to allow non-doms and other offshore spivs free rein. Drop the yebbut-Labour-blah-blah, mate. You've had TEN YEARS. You told us that the deficit would be paid off by 2015. Liars. You've created over a million "jobs" which can involve employers ringing you up at point blank notice with no work today. You've allowed the burgeoning of a bogus "self-employed" sector of five million workers, the majority of whom are attached to employers who don't have to pay sick pay, maternity pay or holiday pay. You have the neck to call this "the flexible labour market."   

Well all you can come up with, apparently, is diversions about negativity and how Labour fought a bad election campaign. Stick that in another thread, because it doesn't belong here. It's sidetracking and it is bloody dishonest. Address for once what you lot have actually done for ten years, and, when you've done that, reflect on the state of crass unpreparedness for this epidemic that it's brought us to. It's shambolic, and it's killing people. How good is that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 PM

If I was a tory, I'd hope I'd be honest enough to say

"I don't care, I'm alright Jack...!!!"

..but then be badly surprised to find out in fact I'm not,
as I'd also be left to die...

Because the tory elite I always faithfully voted into power
never care about anyone else, not even me...

[comical sad face crying in despair smiley emoticon...]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:41 PM

Right on. If anything defines Toryism, it's the way they've been found out by this crisis. It involves everybody, not just them, and Tories can't handle that: Tories are used to leaving the masses behind. The lack of preparedness is staggering. And just think how they've got away with it in part because this has been an easy flu-winter this time around. The poorest people, the hospital porters, orderlies, paramedics, cooks, cleaners and nurses, along with doctors, are mercilessly exposed to deadly disease because this government, in spite of at least three months' notice, can't produce the protective gear needed. They have failed to ramp up the testing regime, so that hospital workers don't know whether they're infectious or not. They tell us that they're sticking to scientific advice, yet a week ago they were rattling on about "herd immunity," which had those of us who know what that means holding their heads in their hands groaning. And Boris sez he's going to mop it up in twelve weeks. Stick it on a bus, Bozo.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:35 AM

The government now busy awarding lucrative contracts for ventilators to Brexit-supporting, Tory-Party-Donor companies like Dyson and JCB. Sounds as though there’s a new outbreak of Cronyvirus....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM

I've just read a news report on BBC RED BUTTON
Govt are asking vets to lend big dog/horse ventilators to the NHS...

What next.. asking Blue Peter to get kids to make them
out of toilet roll tubes and lolly sticks...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM

One of the things about the Internet being around awhile is you can see what the world thought of Gordon Brown's approach back in 2008/9. That is, you can look at reports from around the world written in 2008/9 commenting on whether they believed Brown was doing the right thing. Not the revisionism of the more recent years, but what people actually thought at the time. Generally, they thought Brown was doing the right thing. For example, the IMF.

We can also see what the world thinks about how Boris Johnson is handling the current crisis, which, judging by the US employment figures just released, is going to be many times more significant. OK, this is a Guardian summary, but you can look at sources for both the 2008/9 timeframe and the current one from outside the UK and check for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:54 AM

"Remember the financial crisis of 2008. "
Tsk, trsk more whataboutism
Comparing a financial crisis to a world-wide pandemic just about holds the Gold in the Poliic-Olymics
Economical, with one possible exception, Labour and Tory governments are joined at the hip - while adopting different techniques, both are/were dedicated to preserving the political status quo - Blair's 'New Labour' was probably the most honest in Exposing the 'pro Capitalist nature of Right Wing Labour - out-of the closet Tories.
The exception was the post war Attlee Government which rebuilt war-destroyed Britain using mild socialist measures
The rest have been getting more and more like their so-called opponents each time, which is why it became necessary to take out Corbyn, with the enthusiastic co-operation of the Tory Government, the Tory Press and backers of the extremist right-wing regime in Israel
Blaming the 'last lot' for the inevitable decline of a rotten system is older than the Pyramids
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM

"which I used on one occasion."
Lucky you to have an A and E that has a brain surgery department Bozo
"that's the first baby step towards book burning...???"
It's helpin keep us warm during these dark days - be grateful
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:34 AM

What do the Tories say? Though PFI began under the Conservatives, they were intensely critical of Gordon Brown and Tony Blair's much expanded use of the funding method, viewing it as a way for the former government to conceal the true scale of public borrowing in the 2000s.Jan 18, 2018

FROM THE GUARDIAN
NHS hospital trusts to pay out further £55bn under PFI scheme

Some spending one-sixth of entire budget on repaying debts from Blair-era policy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/nhs-hospital-trusts-to-pay-out-further-55bn-under-pfi-scheme

I have mentioned PFI several times recently but as it was a cunning labour wheeze to kick NHS debt way into the future the usual lefty selective amnesia kicks in.
Fact:
1)year on year the NHS budget has grown.
2)NHS hospital trusts are being crippled by the private finance initiative and will have to make another £55bn in payments by the time the last contract ends in 2050
3)“Toxic PFI contracts are still driving billions away from patients and into private bank accounts,” said Chris Thomas, an IPPR health fellow, who carried out the research
4)Tory Ministers have banned the NHS from using PFI for any future building projects after criticism that many of the contracts still active represent poor value for money.
Rather a different narrative than the left would have us believe.
Tories know money vcan only be spent once.
It is only the left, with the abbaccus as shadow home secretary figure they can use mathermagic and spend the same penny a multiplicity of times. Their schooling may have been at Hogwarts but all they learnt was hogwash.

At the start of the NHS life expectancy in the UK was (M)66 years and (F)70 years. Today the figures are 79.3 years for males and 82.9
Two-thirds of hospitals beds are occupied by the one-third of the population with a long-term condition.
. People are living with a growing number of long-term chronic conditions - diabetes, heart disease and dementia. These are more about care than cure - what patients usually need is support. By the age of 65, most people will have at least one of these illnesses. By 75 they will have two.
5. Care for older people costs much more

The average 65-year-old costs the NHS 2.5 times more than the average 30-year-old. An 85-year-old costs more than five times as much.
If youwant a better health service it will cost you. Simples!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:00 AM

The Health Service has always been an anathema to Tory philosophy which hangs a price tag on whatever if it can
There has never been a limit on how much is spent on weapons - the lives and health of the British people have always come a poor second which is why this and any tight wing administration need to be closely scrutinised, particularly at a time like this
We already know that Dom Scummings was weighing up the possibility of ditching the elderly - didn't that being revealed lead to a farcical scrambling of denial among those who have become dependent on him for thinking up such penny-pinching schemes on their behalf ?
More of the same to come I'm sure   
We really are expendable to these people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM

"tight wing"
I was going to apologise for the typo, but considering who and what is under discussion - maybe not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:09 AM

More like, Hello? Delusion calling! The Tories have now had ten years. Trying to shift attention to what Labour did in an election campaign does absolutely nothing to address what devastation you Tories have wreaked on public services, including care, education and the NHS. Once again: if you don't agree with that, give me the counter-argument with evidence.

Is this standard of left-wing discussion?
Present a series of personal opinions dressed up as facts, and insist that they require facts to give the opposing view.

Typical!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM

From a live feed:

Councils in England have been asked to house all rough sleepers by the weekend, Sky News is reporting, though the government has yet to confirm this.
====

Odd that no one seemed to worry much about that before. It sounds like - if the reports are true - it is thought that the councils could do it in 24h or so if the will was there.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:50 AM

I haven't stated any opinions as facts, Nigel. In fact, I've twice challenged Stanron (that paragon of right-wing standard of debate....just look at his last two posts...) to counter my claims with facts in evidence. He has signally failed both times, preferring instead to make lame accusations about leftie negativity, etc. I could ask you the same: if the things I've said are in any way wrong, I cordially invite you to present evidence to that effect instead of indulging in the same brand of Stanron-nonsense (which at least avoids your having to confront Tory predations in embarrassment, I suppose).

I'll never defend Labour kicking off prescription charges, PFI or the academicisation of schools. In both those latter cases, what started as small but wrong-headed initiatives have ballooned gleefully UNDER THE TORIES into massive corrupting blights, so it ill-behoves Tories to keep on castigating Labour for them. If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them? Attacking Labour for them is both dishonest and downright hypocritical, both trademarks of Toryism, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM

.... Dom Scummings ....

It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. Stick to facts and well argued opinions instead of resorting to playground insults, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:53 AM

And, DMcG, isn't it amazing that the Tories can now suddenly find zillions to battle this crisis, whereas a few short months ago in the election campaign they were accusing Jeremy Corbyn of indulging in fairyland over his far humbler spending proposals...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM

How often did you wade in on Iains when he was calling Corbyn magic grandad and Compo, and more, Doug? How about little jimmie? What about abbacus in Iains' latest post? Or does your selectivity betray your personal leanings? In my view you could well be right, it doesn't help. But lampooning politicians in words or cartoons is time-honoured. It's either all of 'em or none of 'em, surely, Doug...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:10 AM

If you look at the Nickname thread, Steve, you will find that I objected to the use of Magic Grandad, amongst others. As I said above, ... whatever side of the political spectrum you are on. Two wrongs don't make a right.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

On a cheerful note, Richard Thompson is apparently doing a concert on Facebook - "Join Richard this Sunday at 1pm PST / 4pm EST / 9pm GMT for a Facebook Live concert for Parents & Grandparents Who Are Staying Home".

More than that I do not know!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:14 AM

If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them?
They did.
Fact dear boy! Fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM

Boris Johnson has Covid 19


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM

Stay safe Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM

As my sister said, how many has he infected? What is the state of the cabinet now?

Remember the recovery rate is 80% or better, so he will probably be ok. And I for one would far rather Johnson in charge than Raab.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:40 AM

Without wishing to Labour the point, Doug, you waded in on Jim today over Dom Scummings but left Iains alone with abbacus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:41 AM

Stay very safe Boris.
But why do I have an advert onscreen, while I type, of a toilet bowl being cleaned with a can of coke while advertising bowl sparkle?
Too deep for me I am afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM

I didn't intend to capitalise the word "labour" there, in case anyone thought I was trying to do a clever play on words.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 AM

So how come he got tested, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:48 AM

on the advice of the chief medical officer


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:49 AM

Because he has priority, like we do with Supermarket deliveries.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:09 AM

.... I objected to the use of Magic Grandad, amongst others.

You have obviously made no effort to see what I actually wrote in the other thread but abbacus was included. I gave, in all, four examples, three of which had been posted by Iains - two against politicians and one against a Mudcat member. The fourth example was posted by a Mudcatter of a different political persuasion against a Conservative MP. They were the insults I could recall at the time. It was not a comprehensive list but enough to illustrate my point.

Whataboutism isn't the best tactic to use in any argument.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:13 AM

"It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. "
I suggest you take a look at how the Tory press has ridiculed CORBYN AND HIS COLLEAGUES to the level that Punch depicted the the Irish during the Famine and even lower, since he first appeared on the scene
The Government supported trumped up charges of anti-Semitism, they attacked him over his age despite having historically been led by leaders far older and supported on controversial subjects in the House of Lords by old men who have to have their afternoon nap before they can make it to the ballot box
Their level of open hatred (based, no doubt on fear) of Corbyn is far beyond anything I can remember
These people may not be popular among the great and good, but Corbyn received a far greater level of support from rank and file members than has any Tory leader before or since his arrival
And you complain about my being "not nice" about a non elected proven bullying thug who hasn't enough respect for his employers or the public he is supposed to be working on behalf of to even DRESS PROPERLY whwn appearing in public
His WELL-THOUGH-OUT LANGUAGE when recruiting staff sums up his contemptuous attitude to those he is working for
That a Government steering Britain though first a crass decision to leave Europe and now a world wide pandemic should rely on such a ridiculous individual to steer Britain, or even sell tickets for these perilous voyages is a plain display of their contempt for us
Give us a break Doug - I thought you were better than that
This clown caricatures himself far better than anyboy else coul
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

These people may not be popular among the great and good, but Corbyn received a far greater level of support from rank and file members than has any Tory leader before or since his arrival

But not from Joe Public. They deserted Labour in droves, even from the labour heartlands. The biggest drubbing since 1935.
Now Boris is King and Corbyn a total failure -FACT!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

"Whataboutism isn't the best tactic to use in any argument."
Yet you people use it all the time - Ia'ns jus has, harking back to a previous labour government
In general and ongiong aspects such as this when decisions and rhetoric become habit, whataboutism sums up a general approach to Governance ather than a one-off mistake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM

On the people signing up to be volunteers distributing food, contacting those isolated by phone and so forth: no one I know who volunteered has been contacted yet to help. Does anyone else on here know someone who has? Or how long it might take before we are contacted?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:26 AM

Cummins 'Rambling Blog' to help Britain through Brexit
dominiccummings.com/2020/01/02/two-hands-are-a-lot-were-hiring-data-scientists-project-managers-policy-experts-assorted-weirdos/
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM

I'll never defend Labour kicking off prescription charges, PFI or the academicisation of schools. In both those latter cases, what started as small but wrong-headed initiatives have ballooned gleefully UNDER THE TORIES into massive corrupting blights, so it ill-behoves Tories to keep on castigating Labour for them. If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them?

Part of the reason the NHS is short of money is the PFI initiatives signed up to by the Labour Government. The ongoing cost of these initiatives (paid from the NHS budget) was kept off the balance sheet of the government at that time.
These PFI initiatives were contracts with the providers. The Conservative Government could only end these by either reneging on the contracts (illegal), or buying them out (very costly as a 'one-off' payment which would fall into current expenditure).
How do you think that the Conservatives could 'abandon them'?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:57 AM

Since Nigel and Iains seem to in some disagreement on whether PFI has continued under the Tories, it might be useful to look at this Wiki page, and in particular the new contracts put in place after 2010. The contracts are conveniently listed in a table towards the bottom. Yes, the majority are before the Tories gained power (in a coalition), but there are a good number afterwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:59 AM

With a prediliction for magic money trees the economic knowledge of the left could safely be written upon a postage stamp. This is due to the fact that the most vociferous leached off the public teat all their lives. They cannot appreciate the link between graft and reward. It is not in their genetic makeup. Nationalise and destroy is their only mantra.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:17 AM

"But not from Joe Public. "
Joe Public relies on a non-existent unbiased media for its information - what else do you expect - those uninvolved in politics have sweet f...all else to go on - even Joe Goebbels knew that
Our report found that 75% of press coverage misrepresents Jeremy Corbyn – we can't ignore media bias anymore (THE INDEPENDENT
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html
You regard the media with contempt when it doesn't correspond with criminal blogger 'Stained Staines's' blogs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:21 AM

Dum de dum de dum de dum!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM

If by "graft" is meant hard work (rather than some kind of corruption), I too cannot understand the link in this country between hard work and reward. Without going into any detail, or piling up examples of various kinds of work at widely differing rates of pay, I'd just use the observation that a GP, or a Practice Nurse, does real work of more genuine value in one shift than some highly paid people do in their entire "working" lives. As one particularly unpleasant politician put it a generation back, though his targets were different, they would never be missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM

I'm glad to see that the non- cash declaring self employed will at last get their comeuppance under the Coronavirus Support for self employed rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:52 AM

Not making an argument Doug. We had abbacus and Scummings close together in THIS thread but you remarked on just the one. However, point taken, and I retract gracefully (hopefully).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:00 AM

YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN' YET :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:33 AM

A Question Time rant from Lancet editor Richard Horton is doing the rounds this morning after he savaged the “national scandal” of “being in this position. We knew in the last week of January that this was coming – the message from China was absolutely clear that a new virus with pandemic potential was hitting cities.” Hindsight is a wonderful thing…

Richard claims the message by the end of January from China was absolutely clear – why then, in late January, did he Tweet:
Richard Horton
A call for caution please. Media are escalating anxiety by talking of a “killer virus” + “growing fears”. In truth, from what we currently know, 2019-nCoV has moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity. There is no reason to foster panic with exaggerated language.
2,988
7:18 AM - Jan 24, 2020


Richard Horton
And, when one examines the global response to 2019-nCoV, Chinese authorities have acted quickly and decisively to control the outbreak. They have shared information rapidly and transparently. Meanwhile, WHO has been impressive: clear and confident decisions and communication.
251
7:29 AM - Jan 24, 2020


Richard’s own journal, The Lancet, included a report on the effects of Coronavirus in China published weeks later in the February edition, which said “2019-nCoV still needs to be studied deeply in case it becomes a global health threat” – implying they did not, at the time, see the virus as a global health threat. Richard is arguing that governments around the world should have seen what he, the editor of one of the world’s premier medical journals, only sees in retrospect…

Typical BBC behaviour on question time. Introduce with one hat and the activist inside springs out with another. His wiki entry is quite clear. Perhaps the Lancet requires a neutral editor.
Brought by Guido and no truth was harmed!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:45 AM

Just discovered how hopelessly vile "breakfast tea" is. Just trying to make our Earl Grey last longer!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:19 AM

What a relief it would be if everyone would stop squabbling.

Read this and then think about how to help your neighbors, and even those Mudcatters you're always bickering with. This could come to your town sooner than you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:35 AM

To be honest, Steve, I never even noticed the abbacus comment. It was uncapitalised and appeared in the middle of a sentence, half-way a post in excess of one screen length on my tablet. I tend to skim read long posts and those of any length from certain posters. I had to do a search to find it, and even that wasn't straight forward ad Iains spelt it with


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM

The view in Ireland is that while it is possible that the situation migt ease up in a month or so, there is likely to be a second wave on its way
It was announced that China seems to be on top of the problem but presumably the same will apply
I've never been happy about China's grip on its people but when the British Establishment controls and manipulates the necessary information to guarantee democracy - whence the difference, apart in technique

Sorry Stilly, (with respect, of course) were not going to be able to discuss this problem fully if we're expected to act like a pack of nodding dogs otherwise all we'd do is go around wailing "Oh calamity"
We've already managed to worm out how Government supporters believe health facilities should be distributed - presumably they reflect the views of those they support
These are the type of things we need to know
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:49 AM

Done it again! You would think that I would have learnt by now.

To continue:-


.... two Cs, while you and I only used one. Even if I had noticed it, I had already commented on it elsewhere, so I may or may not have included it.

Jim's post was shorter. The name was capitalised and stood out

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:54 AM

For completeness:-

.... abbaccus ....

It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. Stick to facts and well argued opinions instead of resorting to playground insults, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

Some positive news!
Dyson designed a new state of the art ventilator in 10 days. At least 15,000 will be built in Wiltshire with 10,000 going straight to the NHS, and 4,000 expected to be sent to other countries in need. Dyson said the company had designed and built an entirely new ventilator, called the "CoVent," since he received a call 10 days ago from UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
"This new device can be manufactured quickly, efficiently and at volume," Dyson added, saying that the new ventilator has been designed to "address the specific needs" of coronavirus patients.
A spokesperson for the company, which is best known for its vacuum cleaners and hand dryers, said the ventilators would be ready by early April.


https://order-order.com/2020/03/27/on-the-brighter-side/#comments
I have a little sweepstake on who posts the first negative comment.
Go on, Make my day

This is why no one likes to have you participate in thread - you shoot yourself in the foot with nasty remarks when simple news would have been sufficient. Consider this the first, loser.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Doug - sorry can't remember if we have agreed or disagreed in the past..

But in the midst of pandemic crisis, in an already over long and over convoluted thread,
do we really need several posts extending a somewhat petty irrelevant thread derail 'bee in your bonnet'
about 'name calling' and spelling...

It's taken me bloody ages catching up reading this thread from where I left off to go to bed..
I don't skim, but treat folks with sufficient respect
reading every word of threads that take my interest..

Please take this as intended in good humour,

But it's only fair I be consistent in my 'bee in bonnet' about long winded hijacks and pedantry
in mudcat threads...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:54 PM

Respect, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM

Define 'ready'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:21 PM

PFR,

I made my comment in response to Jim's post and that would have been it. All of my subsequent posts were in response to Steve who, while not wishing to "labour the point" nor "make an argument", repeatedly brought up a perceived imbalance in my original post. If you have a problem, take it up with Steve.

The only reason I am posting this message is that you have decided to extend the discussion. Physician, heal thyself!

That is all I have to say on the subject.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM

Doug - I was awkwardly aware of that possible irony..

bugger.. dunnit again...!!!

But in a a robust forum politics debate between big grumpy old git grown ups,
robust mickey taking language and humourous banter should not be policed and judged by
self-appointed morality officers..???

Far more important realities concern, even frighten, us right now..

..and if we can't lighten the tension by taking the piss out of govt and opposition politicans,
who all badly f@cked up to some degree...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM

A sad irony re coronavirus covid19 is that, whilst English have become the world's worst when it comes to copying other cultures (yoga, American pop, etc.), we are not copying the mask-wearing of nations coping relatively well with this virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM

Masks don't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:06 PM

walky - good..

NHS and care staff, other essential frontline workers,
need the scarce supply of surgical masks far more than you or me..

If you are convinced masks are such an effective foolproof protection,
nothing to stop you making your own to wear..


I already suggested to you in a previous thread cricket box and jock strap..

Or if you have an anorak, parka, or cagoule, wear it back to front with the hood over your face..

There's no limit to creative ideas if you have a mask bee in your bonnet..

But beekeepers masks are probably not too protective...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:14 PM

"I made my comment in response to Jim's post"
I'm still waiting for you to Justify that post Doug
You can't still be defending Dom the Demic's good name, surely
Sorry to pursue this but when our fate is put in such hands as his to the extent it has we really need to understand where he's coming from and whose support he has
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM

Jim when you do not livein the UK   why shitstir about being a possible victim of the NHS and the tories? It makes you appear to be a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:27 PM

Iains - I welcome Jim's [mostly] wisdom..

What he has to say is far more intelligent and relevant than too many Brit fools
who live still live here...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:49 PM

Take no notice PFK
I was born in the UK, I have near relatives living in the UK and I feel a great allegiance to the UK, despite my reservations at what people like Iains have done to it and are doing to its reputation
My nephew has an excellent job for Westland (whatever it calls itself now) and stands to lose it thanks to ******* Brexit
Do you think for one minute I'm going to stop worying about him and the rest   at the sound of the jackboot kicking down the door
THey can't retreat to their farm in Kerry when they run out of cash and are faced with stacking shelves at Morrisons
Sod the flagwaggers of little brain, I say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:02 PM

Jim - of course, I'm sure he extends "when you do not livein the UK   why shitstir"

to all the ex pat m/billionaires who live on exclusive exotic faraway gated estates and islands,
who insistently finance interference with our British home democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:45 PM

...including foul-mouthed Paul Dacre, recently editor of his favourite rag the Mail, off-shorer par excellence. He had plenty to whinge about when it came to our beloved country, so beloved to him that he can't stand to live here... Half a million quid from EU farm subsidies even though he's a rampant Europhobe...I won't go on...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:54 PM

From Marina Hyde in the Guardian:

"In the UK on Thursday night, millions stood on doorsteps or leaned from their windows to applaud NHS and care workers, a vastly moving moment confused only by the participation of many Conservative MPs and ministers who in 2017 not only voted against a pay rise for nurses, but loudly clapped its defeat – and whose funding priorities have left some frontline NHS workers threatening to resign over lack of protective equipment. The World Health Organization recommends the sort of full-body armour you’d want to attend dinner at Michael Gove’s; current government largesse allows for a Kiss the Cook apron and a cardboard Simon Cowell mask."

How searingly true. The sheer HYPOCRISY of any Tory who had the bloody neck to go out and applaud. Shit on the sorry lot of them. Well said, Marina, as ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:35 PM

Jim has yet to answer the question. So far all he has done is take us for a merry jaunt around the houses while wabbling on about whataboutism. You may fool your acolytes, but not me.
I see Mr Varadkar has just banned you from leaving your house come midnight. The over 70's are coconed by decree.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:53 PM

The PM and Prince Charles were rightly tested for Cornovirus. They are both special because of their special responsibilities. But doctors and nurses treating COVID patients are entitled to ask why they can’t get tests. They are special cases too


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:16 PM

Boris, maybe. BigEars? Nowt special there. He got tested because he atops the pyramid of privilege. He's far less use than tens of millions of ordinary working people, many of whom, thanks to this inept government, are in the firing line, and a good number of whom will die, again thanks to the dilatory and complacent attitude of this government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:30 PM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 PM

From the Guardian:

"Boris Johnson was accused of failing to heed his own advice to the public over how to contain coronavirus on Friday as it emerged that he and other key government figures had themselves contracted Covid-19.

On a day of extraordinary developments at the heart of the operation to counter the virus, both the prime minister and health secretary, Matt Hancock, said they had tested positive. The chief medical officer, Prof Chris Whitty, also reported symptoms and went into self-isolation.

But while Johnson said he would be able to continue to run the government’s response to the crisis alone in his Downing Street flat, public health experts rounded on his attitude to the infection and accused him of being “nonchalant” and “slow” to behave appropriately.

The prime minister has previously been accused of failing to keep an appropriate distance from other senior figures in public, and has continued with parliamentary duties this week, raising the possibility that he may have infected others in the cabinet and beyond."

Inept, complacent, irresponsible...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:50 PM

Tho' from the Daily Star:

"SCRUB YER KNOBS AND KNOCKERS!"

It was a reference to doorknobs and knockers. Just so as you'd know...and I saw it on the Beeb News Channel, just in case anyone thinks I might be buying that rag!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:58 PM

Funny that, Gove popping up on TV again...

How many more of his rivals will suddenly test positive in coming days...???

Pandemics really are a most useful perfect murder weapon...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:20 AM

"Jim has yet to answer the question. "
Unlike you, who has tripped over yourself to reply to each question that has ever been put to you as you have a long reputation of doing
Unfortunately, personal abuse doesn't count as an answer to most intelligent people, which is also firmly embedded in your reputation
Would you like my calculation of how many times you have indicated that those livin in Britain (born there or not) are forbidden to comment on what happens there, and how many times I have responded ?
I don't suppose you will respond this time - so here's to the next time eh
You really aren't very good at debating are you ?
This is why people have been instructed by the mods not to respond to you
only do because I'm feeling somewhat charitable to people at the present time - you're at the top of my St Vincent De Pauls list at present
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 04:33 AM

Would you like my calculation of how many times you have indicated that those livin in Britain (born there or not) are forbidden to comment on what happens there, and how many times I have responded ?

I would be most interested. I look forward to seeing your lie exposed.

I note the weasel word "Calculations". Try putting money where mouth is and offer proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 04:59 AM

"I would be most interested. I look forward to seeing your lie exposed."
Off the top of mu=y head - four times at least
A little stupid tioo call something you have just clearly stated and I have replied to just a few posting up "a lie" doncha think ?
You really are hopeless at all this, aren't you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:24 AM

Doctor! Doctor!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:30 AM

Like most people, I guess, and as I’m in the ‘seriously at risk’ category, I’m very concerned about Covid-19 and the government’s inept handling of the situation. I’m pretty sure that none of the easily-deceived neophyte Tory voters from former ‘Red Wall’ districts at the last GE expected such a shambolic, bumbling performance from their new heroes at the first sign of a real problem.

But what I’m just as concerned about is what Dom & Dumber, and their band of acolytes, are up to while everyone is 100% distracted by Covid-19 and wall-to-wall TV coverage of same. A disaster is a very convenient cover for governmental chicanery on other fronts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:51 AM

yes BWM, that is a worry.....or a disaster. as late as last autumn and their leadership contest there were many tories willing to contemplate 'anyone but johnson' - we were told he was widely disliked in the party, and an ego-driven fool etc. (yes, nicky morgan) at the time there were several saner voices in the party grieve, stewart etc who seemed to talk with some insight and intelligence. these guys were backed by the party elders - major, heseltine, ken clarke etc but all their voices went unheeded and they were disappeared from the party. none of them come out of this with any credit - i want to hear some form of opposition to johnson from an organised group of saner tories - but there isn't any. nothing. don't they care about their party? their country? european liberal democracy? while the newer breed bay and cheer at johnson's inane and dangerous capers is there nothing that can dissuade these tories that they may have backed the wrong man taking the wrong line? their past behaviour has led to an NHS and other vital services struggling to survive and starved of resources - now dedicated workers and many other vulnerable people are dying because of boris johnson and others. has anyone changed their mind? and now with the best advice to impart to us on tackling the virus, boris johnson and his nhs lap dog have the virus - you idiots. boris johnson is killing nurses - does any tory have any doubts about him yet? he is a living example of someone getting what he always wanted and finding it a nightmare - well, i hope he suffers this for a few more sweaty, drunken hours before disappearing somewhere unpleasant and letting someone grown up try to make sense of this situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:56 AM

"Doctor! Doctor!"
Too late, I'm afraid
The damage has long caught hold
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM

I recommend garlic & coriander nan bread with ginger preserve if you can't get bread!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:40 AM

Over seven in ten now think Boris and co. are doing well, up from 59% last week, with just two in ten (21%) now thinking they are doing badly, down from 31% last week. The biggest shift has been among those who voted for the Labour Party in December, with a majority (56%) of them now thinking the Government is handling this crisis well, compared to just 38% a week ago.

Who would have believed it? Just shows how totally divorced from reality the left posting here are.
Terrible things are facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

i'm asking if anyone has any doubts about him. what would it take? our wee town is grieving this morning following the death of our good friend Allan. down my street a retired theatre nurse who had gone back to work is at home ill with the virus. now is not the time to bang on about politics and such but i hope before my time is up that, for once, these ruthless tory bastards get their time in court.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:13 AM

And the mob howled for Barabbas, and at the end of the sixties 84% of Brits wanted to keep on stringing people up, and Trump won an election. Public opinion isn't facts. Not really.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM

Surely its the actual decisions that count, not how many people agree with that
You,ve kicked majority decisions into touch whenever they run against your own beliefs
Yor argument is populism - they're doing what people want - in fact the people haven't been asked what they want - it would take a nation wide survey to do that
As you've often said - snap 'surveys' can produce any result you want as UGove is constantly proving
The Government has dragged its feet over and over again, weeks behind Ireland on closing schools, crammed race meetings that should never have taken place - only now are adequate facilities being constructed to cope with victims
China constructed these immediately and in a matter of days and they appear to have the problem cracked while Britain is only just starting
Still milking an international disaster to score political points - I see
Even Johnson and his team are pleading for national unity to tacjle this problem while you continue to drive a wedge among the people
You reall aren't prepared to share anybody's hymn book are you
No wonder even your own side doesn't want to talk to you - you embarrass them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM

Magnificent display of idiocy in this mornings Times
Johnson and his crowd of ministers crammed shoulder to shoulder dow a fight of stairs in number ten (presumably on their way to discus 'social distancing' and other ways to beat the virus) - two of them have the virus
"Do what I say and not what I do" eh !!!
Barm-pots all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:19 AM

Or maybe it's Johnson's new plan for a Cabinet reshuffle !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:41 AM

Even Johnson and his team are pleading for national unity to tacjle this problem while you continue to drive a wedge among the people

Do try pulling that mighty oak from your eye, it may enable the brain to engage.

National Unity = support Boris. Not a difficult concept to grasp for most of us.

I suggest you review recent posts of both yourself and your acolytes. You are a comical fellow!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM

just carry on bickering guys - nothing else is happening out here


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM

There is a lot happenning. UK's first NHS Nightingale hospital set up in response to coronavirus pandemic. The hospital, based in Canning Town, east London, is set to open next week with 500 beds but there are plans to expand that to 4,000. NHS clinicians and managers are working with military planners and engineers to create, equip, staff and open the NHS Nightingale London, The ExCeL London Centre is being refitted to take hundreds of beds with oxygen and ventilators.Others are planned.
It comes as more than 38,000 former healthcare professionals and soon-to-be qualified students step forward to join the fight against Covid-19 in the coming weeks.

According to the government a total of 15,266 former staff responded to a call to action from officials, with 5,117 doctors, 5,605 nurses and midwives and 3,686 pharmacists and other professionals pledging to return to the frontline of the health service

This is joined up thinking from a competant gov ernment responding to a crisis that never before has been faced by the modern world. Their heroic efforts should be applauded not be subjected to the endless petty sniping seen on this forum.

And next week, 5,750 final year medics and 17,000 final year nursing students in England will also be asked to consider starting placements with support from seasoned workers, the Department of Health and Social Care said.
But NHS England is actively preparing for a number of scenarios as the outbreak continues and is working with clinicians and teams of military planners around the country.”

Scotland’s chief medical officer, Dr Catherine Calderwood, separately said numerous sites were being considered north of the border with the nation “on the cusp of that rapid escalation”.

This is an unprecedented response to a demand on health facilities that no country in the world is equipped for.

How do y'all think compo would be facing up to the cgallenge were we sad enough to have him as leader? He was mentally challenged to create even an election manifesto!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 09:48 AM

You do have a point there Iains, but they will argue the hind legs off of a donkey!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM

The response of the Tories to this crisis (bearing in mind how they've severely run down the NHS over a decade) has been shameful. It's been inept, late, confused and indecisive. If you want to see how it should be done, look at South Korea. EARLY clampdowns, testing, testing and more testing, and aggressive contact-tracing. Nothing like that here. We are still doing way under a quarter of the testing that South Korea achieved after all this time. It feels like there's nobody driving. Front-line NHS staff are being put in harm's way in their thousands every day. The safety equipment and testing just isn't there. The government's ineptitude is killing people. Valiant attempts by Tory voters here to defend the indefensible is...well, just wacky...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 10:46 AM

"National Unity = support Boris. Not a difficult concept to grasp for most of us."
Rather "My leader, right or wrong"
You ignore his virtually walking arm-in-arm with a fellow Coronavirus victim and a bunch of other politicians while at the same time demanding that the rest of Britain "social distances"
You choose to ignore the crass decision of allowing a huge national race meeting to take place despite being urged not to
They are two weeks behind Ireland in closing schools
Today, he has been slated by those health workers on the front line risking their lives and health for providing not them with adequate protection equipment
The man apparently doesn't do joined-up thinking and appears totally unaware of his own public displys of idiocy

It's become obvious that some among us have places loyalty to the party far higher than the health and welfare of the British People
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM

In the UK as of the 20th March 960/million were tested for covid-19.
This compares with:
Taiwan 900
Swirzerland 481
Sweden 1412
Spain 646
S. Korea 6148
Russia 918
Poland 334
Japan 117
Italy 3498
Ireland 1350
Germany 2023
France 559
Iran 957
It is so much better to argue with accurate data instead of hearsay and bluster. Doncha think?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 11:56 AM

How's the chocolate ration? Or what about things on the Malabar Front?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

a little while ago i put a message on here about a good friend of ours who died last night. it's not that unusual these days- there are many folk in serious danger and many millions who are terrified and in need of some solidarity and friendship. feel free to ignore this everyone but 'if you are happy and you know it clap your hands' is at least grossly insensitive and possibly psychopathic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 01:51 PM

Sorry for your loss, Pete.

I have stayed off and watched this thread head for disaster. I can only remind you all of what I said 5 days ago. It has become impossible to discuss politics in any meaningful way on here. The wreckers have won.

I suggest, yet again, that anyone with any sense has no interaction at all with those wreckers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 02:36 PM

"Sorry for your loss, Pete."
Second that
So far no-one we know has been effected
It was heart-warming to learn that Cuba, which appears to be relatively untouched have sent dozens of volunteer doctors to Italy and are responding to other world wide requests (though I doubt if that will get much publicity 90 miles away)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 02:52 PM

”Sorry for your loss, Pete.”

And I echo that sentiment Pete. Sincere condolences.

”I have stayed off and watched this thread head for disaster. I can only remind you all of what I said 5 days ago. It has become impossible to discuss politics in any meaningful way on here. The wreckers have won.

I suggest, yet again, that anyone with any sense has no interaction at all with those wreckers.”


And those are the most sensible and truthful words posted by anyone on this thread. Unfortunately, a few people who really should know better seem incapable of comprehending this simple fact, and so another worthwhile thread gathers momentum towards its death.

None are so blind as they who will not see.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:28 PM

Last week I was called a "paragon"..

Now it seems I'm being called "an acolyte"...

Fine by me, can't beat Desmond Dekker's greatest hit to cheer us up...


[probably my worst joke for weeks...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:36 PM

Re: Ring-a-ring of Roses.

For reasons I don't fully understand there was an author on the BBC2 Newsnight programme last night.

She came out with the canard that 'Roses' is about the Black Death. NO IT IS NOT. STOP SPREADING THAT ERROR!



Oh, I was cross!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM

The Tump administration is demanding that countries do not accept Cuban help FFS
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM

”Now it seems I'm being called "an acolyte"...“

Not be me.

If it was my use of that word you’re referring to, read again. I was referring to acolytes of Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson - ‘Dom & Dumber’. I really don’t perceive you as one of those...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:06 PM

BWM - nah.. course not you..

but the bloke who should never be acknowledged [ideally, if we don't succumb to weakness...]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:14 PM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 10:46 AM
. . .
They are two weeks behind Ireland in closing schools


The Taoiseach closed schools at the end of day 12 March Here
England closed schools at the end of day 20 March Here
Eight days is a lot less than two weeks.

This is not nit-picking, it is pointing out inaccurate statements being put forward as facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:41 PM

Various reports are in live feeds, on the ITV site and elsewhere that the government is denying it has placed an order for Dyson ventilators. It says it has "expressed an interest" in ordering 10,000 once the ventilator has passed regulatory approval but will not order them until then, which as yet it it has not. It looks like 'ready in early April" should be interpreted as "ready in April for the first iteration of regulatory testing. It might pass first time, or several more iterations may be required."

Meanwhile a substantial order appears to have been placed elsewhere for designs that are already approved.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:13 PM

"Eight days is a lot less than two weeks."
The decision was made a week before as was the British one, and the schools prepared to close - as I said, two weeks
The decision to close the schools in Northern Ireland were even later, even though it was suspected that a teacher had died of the virus
Stop wriggling and nit-picking - your Government had lagged behind behind from the word go
I see none of you are raising your hands in horror at Trump, your master's puppet-master, rejecting Cuba's offers of assistance and The Morning Star appears to be the only British paper to carry the story - only learned about it because a singer friend put it up on Facebook
I'd have thought that would have sickened all decent people - it is lethal gamesmanship politics and there is a blanket of silence surrounding it
Dangerous times
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:36 PM

Don't know if your reports are accurate Mac, but I would be interested to know if THIS IS TRUE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:29 PM

Now let me tell you summat, moderator dear. Iains put up a terrible post inviting us to clap our hands ("If you're happy and you know it..." that one...the most despicably inhuman post ever to appear on this website, on a day when UK deaths passed one thousand). I responded to that, but you saw fit to delete both his post and my response. Grand. It's your gig, not mine. But I have an opinion on what you've done. You've protected a horrible man, that's what you've done. You don't want him exposed for what he is. I conclude that he chimes with your own personal opinion, whichever of the three you are. We Brits, some of us, have often suspected that you share Iains' extreme right-wing views. Good for you. It's a free country. If you think I've got that wrong, please tell this forum, with your reasons. Not with with one of your usual silly addenda, but with a proper post, like what WE all have to do. They'd better be good reasons. He has clearly crossed the red line, but, from here, it looks like you can't see it. You got rid of Teribus and akenaton because they got up YOUR nose (don't deny it...I have your PMs...), but you're perfectly happy, even deliriously so, to see this idiot getting up OUR noses. In fact, you appear to revel in it. You moan and groan about us Brits "squabbling" (your latest tiresome buzzword), but, actually, you love it, don't you? You think that we'll all get so fed up that we'll leave this website to you precious yanks. Well, this ain't no democracy, but even you can't bring about about. So, fer chrissake, get rid of Iains. He's poison, you know it, but what you don't seem to realise is that he is bringing this website into disrepute. Do delete this post out of your embarrassment. But I've copied it, and I might just send it to your boss. he hasn't heard from me yet, and I do know how to put things. Nighty night.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:31 AM

New British Summertime resolution Steve
The moderators have been made fully aware of this feller's political connections and the possibility that he has been planted here by them, but are under fairly clear instructions not to do anything about him - we can all draw our own conclusions as to why that is - even Max seems to have been persuaded that there's no harm in him
I doubt if anybody believes that they are unable to do anything to stop him - they deal with those of us who try to stop him damn quick enough and they've closed more threads than they left open on his behalf

Can I suggest that we give Baccy and Dave's suggestion that we try Dave's way and blank him completely a try - send him to Coventry, totally ignore him, boycott him, leave him to wallow in his own swill, ignore him, pretend he isn't there (he isn't really anyway)...
He is what he is, were not going to change him and nobody who counts follows him, and he knows it, so he settles for second best and just fucks up interesting threads that he doesn't understand till he gets them closed (with our help)
Let's not help him any more - radio silence when we're in enemy territory it what they're always saying on 'Talking Pictures' let's hope we haven't done too much damage and we get the decent posters like Dave and Baccy back posting regularly and maybe some decent Government supporters who appear to not want to be tarred by his brush - fingers crossed
This will possibly be deleted, but I'll post it around an usual if it is
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old
THIS seems to have avoided the headlines to a great extent too
Cuba always has had an record for medical excellence (they believe in keeping those they "oppress" healthy, it seemd :-) )
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old
THIS seems to have avoided the headlines to a great extent too
Cuba always has had an record for medical excellence (they believe in keeping those they "oppress" healthy, it seemd :-) )
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:41 AM

"Eight days is a lot less than two weeks."
The decision was made a week before as was the British one, and the schools prepared to close - as I said, two weeks
The decision to close the schools in Northern Ireland were even later, even though it was suspected that a teacher had died of the virus


Stop wriggling and nit-picking - your Government had lagged behind behind from the word go

So you want to calculate the "two weeks" by taking the time between Ireland making a decision, and England implementing a decision. Definitely 'creative accounting'. And I think it should be clear who is doing the 'wriggling'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:55 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old


Yet more disinformation.

This was reported by the Telegraph six days ago: Here
A brigade of doctors and nurses from Cuba have flown to Italy this weekend to help fight coronavirus – Italy is now the centre of the global crisis. It’s not the first time Cuba has been part of a global medical response, since 1959 it’s sent six groups of “armies of white robes” to tackle diseases abroad. The Cubans were applauded on arrival.

Or The Daily Mail two days ago

or March 22nd New York Times


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:04 AM

Ireland lays on flight to China for PPE as nearly   25% of Covid-9 victims are health care workers.


https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0329/1127076-ppe-equipment-china/

50% of EU PPE is exported from China and 71 percent of EU imports of mouth-nose-protective equipment.

According to official Chinese customs data released on March 25, Chinese exports of PPE to the world declined by only 15 percent in the first two months of 2020, relative to the same period in 2019, Notable is that China’s exports of these medical products declined less than the rest of its exports to the world, which fell by 17 percent during the same period.

Globalism and interruption oflong supply chains means strategic manufacturing goals need a rapid revision when this crisis permits it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:06 AM

Well as that came from you, Jim, I'll buy it. I'll ignore the resident ratbag completely from now on. Though, I must say, the powers that be here are extremely remiss in allowing him to abuse us. They moan and groan about us Brits but they appear to revel in Iains' disreputable presence. Anyway, nuff said. Grrr.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:16 AM


Hi everyone
I wanted to introduce myself as the British mod in the group. For my sins, I have taken on British posts on Mudcat...
Just to let you know that nothing much will change and hate speech, racism, name calling etc will be shut down. If anyone has a problem with that, please let me know ;-).
Civil (ish) discussions, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:25 AM

You have my sympathies, Barb'ry. Best wishes!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:26 AM

Thish should be blazoned over every headline in Britain Nigel n order to encourage the practice and thnk the donors for their generosity
The two papers are to be congratulated fro covering it but why was it announced by all of them ?
It wasn't misinformation - it was lack of same - I didn't see it at the time and it never appeared on the British news
I don'd spread "misinformation" I leave that to the like of Guido
Still nitpicking about how many weeks behind your Government is, I see
Hi Barb'ry - welcome to Hell
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:32 AM

a post removed was my complaint that iain's response of 'if you are happy and you know it clap your hands' when i had just posted about the death of our friend was incredibly insensitive. in the current situation when all of us are anxious and could do with support from each other (and anywhere!) this is the response of a madman - or a psychopath. i don't get this 'lets all ignore him' stuff - we -and certainly I - have done this often enough. please, gie's peace - cut him off so he can go and shout his bile to the winds.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:32 AM

Sorry Jim, I must have misunderstood.
When you said:
I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old

I inferred (wrongly it seems) that you had looked.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:37 AM

Sensible words from ex PM Blair
Disinformation from Guido? Watch the video and decide



https://order-order.com/2020/03/29/blair-pm-perfectly-able-lead-country-isolation/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:05 AM

"I inferred (wrongly it seems) that you had looked."
I had and I did not find anyhting which might say something \about Google of course
You are didging the fact that if was under-reported by the British media - thwe level of reporting of this was tantamount to describing the sigking of the Titanic as "Boat Flounders Somewhere Else"
Maybe you can ut me right about the fact that the only reference to Trump having demanded that all Cuban offers of assistance be rejected in the British Press came from the Communist 'Morning Star'
If anything, it is far more important to know that Trump (and presumably his allies of which our Government is a front-rummer) are likely to turn down offers of assistance at a time like this if they don't approve of the benefactor's politics
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:15 AM

Good luck, Barb'ry. On the basis that you will remove obviously provocative nonsense like "Jeremy Corbyn caused everyone to spread the virus", I am happy to get back in the water. Hopefully we can now discuss politics in an adult manner without the infantile rhetoric that we have been suffering.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:25 AM

Fine, so a labour government under she who sounds like Coronation Street cleaner would be more appropriate to deal with the Coronavirus .....discuss!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM

You could start by deleting the clearly provocative post at 06:25 AM, Barb’ry.

Good luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM

or 6.15 unless proof is offered. Otherwise it is an extremely provocative statement


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:08 AM

See what I mean about provocative nonsense, Barb'ry?

Bonzo. Firstly, defining someone by their gender, social status or regional accent is stereotyping at its worse. Your crass insult to an intelligent young woman is not political comment. It is simply a means to cause friction.

Secondly, neither Corbyn nor his as yet unnamed successor are in any position to change current government policy. As has been pointed out Boris has a massive majority and can do whatever he choses. With that power comes great responsibility and whatever he does now is entirely down to him. Justifying any mistakes that Johnson may make by comparing him with someone who cannot possibly gain power for almost 5 years is not just whataboutism but sheer fantasy.

It adds nothing to the discussion and helps no-one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:59 AM

I couldn't agree more, Pete. The removal of posts expressing JUSTIFIED outrage at this horrible man just protects him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:01 AM


You see I will be damned if I do and damned if I don't so a difficult situation to say the least. The post at 06.25 along with other 'ism' posts perhaps say more about the poster than the comment. Not nice but there as a lasting witness to one's written opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:23 AM

Sorry people - this is just falling back into this feller's trap again - onward and upward eh ??

Ireland is due to take delivery of the first of a large order of ventilaors and medical equipment from China on Tuesday or Wednesday - Dyson has yet to begin their manufacture
Please try to keep up Boris
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:24 AM

Well as long as you stamp on abuse and stay consistent you'll get support here. You've posted to Mudcat just three times in the last almost-six years. I hope you've been a damn good lurker! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:24 AM

no sane person would damn you if you do. there is a law against hate speech you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:27 AM

It would seem fair to me that with the overwhelming majority of posts on this thread finding fault with every action the government is taking, then it is right that the question be asked as to how the Opposition would deal with the multiplicity of problems presented. There are no standard texts on how to deal with this pandemic, PPE gear is not stockpiledon a scale to meet the sudden dramatic increase in demansd, Test kits specific for a given virus or set of antibodies do not sit in wharehouses to meet a sudden demand. The figures to use for planning purposes are largely from models. The entire planning process is on the fly and reacting to constantly changing circumstances. This is not a flawless process.

As Eisenhower said:Plans are worthless, but planning is everything.

There is a very great distinction because when you are planning for an emergency you must start with this one thing: the very definition of “emergency” is that it is unexpected, therefore it is not going to happen the way you are planning.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM

Agreed, Barb'ry, but that post was not just an 'ism'. It was an underhanded dig at the social status and gender of Rebecca Long-Bailey. I know it to be so because he has made the same comment before. It's the same as the other poster referring to Dianne Abbott as the abbottamus because of her ethnic background and, to my mind, just as hateful.

May I suggest it is worth starting with a clean sheet? Close this thread and start a new one entitled. "UK politics. Moderated". Maybe the first post could be by you detailing what is permissible and what will be summarily deleted.

Just a thought


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM

Fine, so a labour government under she who sounds like Coronation Street cleaner ....

I know it can only be one of two people but, as TV soaps pass me by, the reference to Coronation Street doesn't give me any clue as to which one. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:40 AM

Just tweeted to the Beeb's #SongsOfPraise: a CEO in Japan earns about 10 times more than the company's lowest paid; in Europe, 30 times; & in the USA > 300 times more! So why copy their way of setting Christian words to American pop? God knows, we should worship OUR trad ways; "Nationalism without Conquest"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:42 AM

See my post just above yours, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM

Hmm? I don't normally associate double-barrelled names with cleaners.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:55 AM

Nor me, Doug. He is referring to her being a woman from a working class background with a Manchester accent.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:01 AM

Correct!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:09 AM

Oh!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:22 AM

Margaret Thatcher was a working-class woman with a Lincolnshire accent (until she married well and worked on changing her accent to ‘posh’).

So......??


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM

Changing her accent to normal I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:02 AM

"I hope you've been a damn good lurker! ;-)"
I hope you don't mean Lurcher - I've told you how I feel about cruel sports
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:03 AM

How would you know? I thought that people in Cr*yd*n had yet to evolve past grunting at each other....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:04 AM

That was to Bonzo Doo Dah.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:50 AM

I used to think they people with the double-barrelled names were incredibly honest, if perhaps a bit too forthright. My misunderstanding was that their mothers weren't sure who their fathers were, but that it was in each case a choice between two.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM

ABCD - :-)

Bonzo. You are aware that women have had the vote for quite a while aren't you? You should also know that it was the working class of Manchester that were instrumental in getting votes for all at Peterloo just over 200 years ago. Assuming you do know all of this and that you do not really believe that gender, place of birth of social status disqualify anyone from being a political leader, then your comments are just made to wind people up. In that case, they can be ignored. If you do believe that such things make people any different then you are deluded and can be ignored for that. Win-win!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 11:23 AM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!

Dum de dum, I have to go for daily allowed exercise with Dreamy dog the greyhound while the sun is shining!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:09 PM

You have done that one before, Bonzo. Yesterday I think. And there is nothing for you to agree or disagree with. I do have a question though

Do you really believe that a young, well educated northern woman should be excluded from leadership because of her gender, background or accent? Or are you just winding people up?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:36 PM

"Or are you just winding people up?"
What took you so long Dave
He's been doing that for years
Do you really think anybody is that stupid ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:40 PM

Jim Carroll wrote: Do you really think anybody is that stupid ?
Jim
The whole of the Labour platform is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid.
    I'm leaving this post here as an example of what I don't believe to be acceptable. It appears to be doing nothing more than trolling by making an inflammatory remark. What was to be gained by it? No, I don't want an answer!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:43 PM

You are aware that women have had the vote for quite a while aren't you? You should also know that it was the working class of Manchester that were instrumental in getting votes for all at Peterloo just over 200 years ago.

Peterloo was hardly about 'votes for all'. More about votes for all men. As you say, women have had the vote (UK) for quite a while, but not that long.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:45 PM

I really want to know, Jim. If he is just winding people up, his posts can be safely removed or ignored. If he genuinely believes that people are inferior because they are either women or northern, he is dangerous and should be treated accirdingly.

Stanron. Would you care to explain?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:48 PM

"The post at 06.25 along with other 'ism' posts perhaps say more about the poster than the comment.
Not nice but there as a lasting witness to one's written opinions.
"

Barb'ry - This post of your's is as far as I've caught up reading this thread today..

[a lazy Sunday afternoon in bed..]

So, if you can continue to adopt this approach to modding,
as opposed to the inconsistent gratuitous deleting we have put up with for far to long.
Then you are a mod I should get along with ok ...

I've always argued for leaving damning posts in place for posterity,
so bad folks who write bad things can no longer have it swept under the carpet for them,
and conveniently forgotten...

cheers..
pfr


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM

Now to try catching up reading the rest of this thread..

I may be some time...

[hopefully a minimum of deletions, so what's left is not too confusing,
and has some reasonable continuity that makes sense to a reader...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM

Votes for all men had to come first, Nigel. Sad but true. Without votes for all men we would never had got votes for all women as well. Peterloo was a major turning point in achieving votes for all no matter how many nits you pick.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Stanron. Would you care to explain?
Correct me if I'm wrong but my take on Labour ideology is that the 'whole' can be improved by lifting the 'bottom'. Tory ideology could be seen as lifting the 'whole' by improving the 'top'. I guess I believe more in the idea of trickle down than I believe in the idea of trickle up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM

Gove:

"We’re going to move to get that up to 25,000 a day and we’re doing all that we can to increase and to accelerate that, and I hope that we will be able to test as many frontline workers at the earliest possible stage."

As pointed out by the person who copied this into the comments section under a Guardian report, it's just riddled with every caveat under the sun. "Going to, up to, all that we can, increase and accelerate, I hope that we will be able, as many....earliest possible stage..." You couldn't make it up, except that he did. Inept, unprepared, too little, too late.

UK strategy to address pandemic threat ‘not properly implemented’

[Damian Carrington in today's Guardian, extracts]:

The UK’s biological security strategy, published in 2018 to address the threat of pandemics, was not properly implemented, according to a former government chief scientific adviser.

Prof Sir Ian Boyd, who advised the environment department for seven years until last August and was involved in writing the strategy, said a lack of resources was to blame. Other experts said there was a gap between pandemic planning and action, and that the strategy had stalled.

The UK has been rated as one of the most prepared nations in the world, and some experts have said the coronavirus outbreak would have overwhelmed any government. However, a 2019 parliamentary inquiry into biological security was postponed and then cancelled because MPs were focused on Brexit and then the December general election.

Boyd said the government was aware of many risks with low likelihoods but potentially very high impacts on the nation, such as pandemics, severe storms and power blackouts. But he said these were assessed independently from one another, underplaying the total risk, which itself was rising due to climate change, population growth and the globalisation of travel.

Looked at alone, a pandemic had appeared unlikely, he said. “As a result, getting sufficient resource just to write a decent biosecurity strategy was tough. Getting resource to properly underpin implementation of what it said was impossible.”...

...The NHS is reported to have failed a government test of its ability to handle a pandemic, though the finding were not made public. Exercise Cygnus, a three-day dry run for a pandemic carried out in October 2016, examined how hospitals and other services would cope in a flu outbreak with a similar mortality rate to coronavirus.

According to the Sunday Telegraph, ministers were told three years ago that Britain would be overwhelmed, suffering a lack of critical care beds, morgue capacity and personal protective equipment.

In July 2019 the House of Commons joint committee on the national security strategy launched an inquiry into preparing for emerging infectious diseases. However, its first evidence session in October was postponed due to debates on Brexit and the calling of a general election. The December election meant the inquiry was cancelled.

Catherine Rhodes, the head of the centre for the study of existential risk at Cambridge University, had been scheduled to give evidence to the MPs’ inquiry. She said the UK had had fairly good pandemic planning in place.

“There does, however, seem to have been a significant gap between recognition of the risk and planning, and action on preparedness,” she said. “In particular, there could have been much better public communication in advance of the outbreak about the sort of measures that might be necessary in such a situation, and surge capacity in the NHS could have been substantially improved.”

Opi Outhwaite, at St Mary’s law school in London, who was also scheduled to give evidence to the inquiry, said: ‘I think broadly that any government would likely have been overwhelmed by this outbreak.”

But she said: “The risk of an outbreak of this type has been known for some time, while the biological security strategy seemed to have stalled."


Naturally, I have a message to convey about this government's ineptitude (not to speak of the running-down of the NHS), so I've been fairly selective. The article is there in full for anyone to read. There's a little bit of room in it for anyone to make little exonerations of the government. There is no room whatsoever for "it was in The Guardian therefore it's automatic shit" comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

"I really want to know, Jim.!"
He's always donee this - he makes outrageous statements - about foreigners - of all nationality and colour, about the less well off, about Catholics, about women..... you name it, he's done it
It would take somebody with real problems to believe what he claims he's done
It's purely for effect
"The post at 06.25 "
See above
We've all fallen for it at one time or another
He probably had no toys as a child
"The whole of the Labour platform is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid."
Consider the number who vote labour Stanron that's an extremely arrogant and elitist statement, even for a dyed in the wool Tory
Nearly all politicians lie to those whose votes they wish to win - our demovcracy is based on the premise that no politician is bound by what the electorate wants
The difference with Labour is that it promises something different than a society divided into haves and have nots rather than the 'crumbs from the rich man's' philosophy built into all other forms of Government
Corbyn showed signs of wishing to change that and your people knew it - it's why they tried every trick in the book to destroy him - personal insults ageist caricature, antisemitism - stupidity..... all manufactured and pushed through - in teh case of antsemitism, with the assisntance of a an extremist right-wing foreign power wich itself is antisemitic in blaming the Jewish People for it's human rights atrocities and has only kept out of the International Courts for those abuses with the help of many dozens of US vetoes (go check)
Labour at its best rebuilt Post War Britain using measures that were opposed by your party at every step of the way
The National Health Service that Briyain priodes itself on was socialism in actin
Go read what your party had to say about it at the tame
You really need to come up with something better than mindless sloganising
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM

Yes, Stanron. If you need to distribute £100 you can either give £10 each to 10 people who need it or you can give it all to one person who doesn't. In the former case the economy is inflated by £100. In the latter, it gets put into a back pocket and a few crumbs may go back into the economy. I go for the former, as does labour. But that was not my question. You said "The whole of the Labour platform is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid". You have spectacularly failed to explain that.

Would you care to try again?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:38 PM

Caught up reading this thread, and watched news headlines..

Right then, I'll support DtG's call for a fresh new thread to start the week.

Let's give our new mod a clean sheet...

By coincidence, on Channel 5 catch up
is the 1961 Max Bygraves movie "Spare the Rod"

a drama about a fresh new inexperienced supply teacher
thrown in at the deep end
with the toughest class of kids, in the toughest school, in the toughest neighbourhood...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for the comment and clarification Barb'ry. Apologies for cross-posting. FWIW, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:22 PM

"Well as long as you stamp on abuse and stay consistent you'll get support here.
You've posted to Mudcat just three times in the last almost-six years. I hope you've been a damn good lurker! ;-)
"

Steve - we're now having to get used to essential workers
being called back out of retirement at short notice...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:38 PM

Deputy Chief Medical Officer Dr Jenny Harries:

    “To make it clear to the public, if we are successful we will have squashed the top of that curve which will be brilliant, but we must not then suddenly revert to our normal way of living, that would be quite dangerous. If we stop then all of our efforts will be wasted.”

    “Over time, probably over the next six months, we will have a three week review, we will see where we are going. We need to keep that lid on, and then gradually we will be able to hopefully adjust some of the social distancing measures, and gradually get us all back to normal.”

    “Three to six months ideally, and lots of uncertainty in that, to see at which point we can actually get back to normal. And it is plausible that it could go further than that.“


The video confirmation courtesy of Guido

https://order-order.com/2020/03/29/social-distancing-last-three-six-months-plausibly-longer/#comments


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:39 PM

"but my take on Labour ideology is that the 'whole' can be improved by lifting the 'bottom'."
Your take is wrong
Ihat nothing to do with personal wealth - it is based on equality of opportunity - the right for everybody to prove themself
You reduce that dream to "The politics of envy" - may your tongues fall out en mass
Who envies to be rich enough to have poor taste and little humanity - that's what epitomizes today's privileged
Your party once had principles - the dream that by sacrifice, poor people could better themselves
That has been long abandoned
I can think of a dozen leading Tories I once admired for something or other (I worked for some of them in London)
Now I'm hard pressed to think of one
Your Party has gone down the pan and it has taken Britain with it - go check the constant and repidly growing gap between haves and have nothings and tell me that's not so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:32 PM

Jim - the tories are now like a more sinister version
of a vintage rock band that lost all original members,
lost all inspiration and direction,
and sadly became a tired weak covers band of itself...

..worst still, the new singer got his best mate in as manager,
who imposed his own dodgy musical personality on the old band...

Conservative Party in name only...

But the dedicated loyal fanbase still keep dutifully buying their newest released crap CDs
and merchandise tat...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:35 PM

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:37 PM

Dear pfr

your talents are wasted here. You should start writing novels.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:57 PM

Stan - yeah I was told that by the English teachers at school and 6th form college..

But my factory council estate parents
didn't have an upper middle class privileged old-school-tie social network
of media and publishing contacts....

.. and also playing and partying in a band
was far more fun than sitting in a solitary room with nothing but a typewriter...

Having said that, one of my best mates from grammar school,
who did belong to a middle class arty farty family,
has become a successful novelist and media personality...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:09 PM

But the dedicated loyal fanbase still keep dutifully buying their newest released crap CDs
and merchandise tat...

Yup!   populism is a wonderful thing. It placed the Torys back in power with a stonking majority.
Labour by conntrast cannot decide between waxed clinders or 78s, that nobody has the yoke to play them on anyway..... Thus like the graphophone they are consigned to the dustbin of history


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:11 PM

Good reasoned argument, Stanron. Any answer to my question yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:22 PM

The Mod has pronounced me a troll. It looks like your side wins.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:22 PM

Iains - just like the blinkered fans of an aging once mildly interesting rock band,
the current tory fan base don't understand,
are completely ignorant of, and biased against,
any other peoples far more vibrant tastes in music...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM

@ punkfolkrocker,   And if anyone be adversely critical of their performances, their inevitable response is to retort that another band would be worse with its current line-up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:04 PM

"The Mod has pronounced me a troll..."

Reminds me of that old Tommy Cooper joke:

Doctor! Doctor! (moving arm...) every time I do this it hurts!

(Doc): Well stop doing it then!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:39 PM

"The Mod has pronounced me a troll."

Stan - how/where's that then...???

From what little I've mixed with you,
you struck me as one of the more sensible mudcat tory 'activists'...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:49 PM

She said his post was trolling. Nobody called him a troll. IMO, he does seem to like getting up people's noses. But again, it's what he does, not what he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:11 AM

PFR How to deal with vibrant music


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:58 AM

"and sadly became a tired weak covers band of itself..."
I agree with all of that Pfr with the exception of "weak"
Unfortunately, by abandoning the former old beliefs that they could run the world as wise, superior elders for the benefit of all, they found a quick-fix to getting what they want
Instead of 'working for the good of the people' as the best of them genuinely believed, they discovered 'Populism' - sell an idea to the people in any way available, then push it through, claiming it was what they had asked for
Brexit was their big breakthrough
The appeal to the traditional xenophobia that was built into by our (my generatn's at least) education system won Brexit - blame the foreigners and incomers for all our troubles and push through a massive leap in the dark which nobody had thought through, not even them
They did it using techniques that destroyed the career of one of their on leading politicians, Enoch Powell - Farage's 'invading hordes' poster was a simplified version of Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech
Since then, the Tories have cleansed their ranks of humanitarians and thinkers', and if one of either shows weakness, breaking of ranks or challenges to leadership they are frog-marched out
Cummins and his unelected team are an 'unthink tank' deliberately chosen to come up with an efficiently ruthless way to head for their Brave New World and leave the old velvet-glove tactics behind - his choice of language when building up that team is indicative of the shaking off of the old ways was the shape of things to come "weirdos and Misfits" - using a blog instead of going through 'the usual channels' of selection the Civil Service

After Brexit, Trump took the cue, appealed to America's redneck 'pioneer' streak and won the right to target Mexicans (to start with), build walls and take charge of the supposedly neural groups that run the country - the judiciary, the police, the Army - next stop, the Media
Shortly after, we in Ireland had a Presidential election where a totally unknown, Peter Casey, came from nowhere, appealed to Ireland's hatred of Travellers and got far too many votes - thankfully nowhere near enough

This is happening worldwide now - they are succeeding where the Nazis failed by turning people against their own less-fortunate fellow human beings
Frightening times - it will be interesting to see if the present crisis does anything to wake people up
Who knows, maybe it's Nature's way of restoring the balance !!!!

I'm afraid Stanron is proving as disappointing as the rest
Rather than providing thought-through or even interesting argument, he has resorted to one- liners and evasion - pity
How I miss MtheGM
Maybe the malaise that has inflicted the Tory leadership has spread to its supporters
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 04:28 AM

populism
   a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

Now what brought this about in the UK?
Remember the Tory quote?
disgrace

The elite group was Labour defying the will of the people and refusing an election.
But populism won and the turkeys were not able to prevent a vote for Christmas.
Populism hammered Labour at the polls and an extremely popular government was voted in. The people regained theiur sovereignty again and destroyed those who would thwart them

Terrible things facts. They beat opinion pieces any day!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:20 AM

HOLD the LINE people - it's working well so far
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM

From today's Labour List:

The UK’s coronavirus death toll rose to 1,228 over the weekend, including NHS doctors for the first time. NHS staff are only just starting to be tested now, amid increasing pressure also for personal protective equipment to reach frontline key workers urgently. Remember when the deputy chief medical officer confidently stated on March 20th that the problems around PPE had been “completely resolved”? The latest Lancet editorial was scathing. Editor-in-chief Richard Horton called the handling of coronavirus a “national scandal”, and concluded that as a result of delays and inaction: “Patients will die unnecessarily. NHS staff will die unnecessarily.”

The. Government's response has been inept, disorganised, complacent (herd immunity, anyone? Beat it in twelve weeks?) and tardy. And it's killing people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:40 AM

"The people have their way"

That would have been Thursday 12 December 2019.
It is rare we agree on anything!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM

So now Cummings is self isolating with symptoms of the coronavirus. He was last seen leaving number 10 just after Johnson made his broadcast saying he had tested positive for the virus.

We don't actually know if they had contact, but it seems extremely likely. Mixing with someone known to have the virus is not exactly a mark of genius, is it?

I suppose like Rees-Mogg, Cummings thinks his common sense means he should not follow expert advice but make his own judgements.

Like Boris, Cummings will probably get through this, as the vast majority do. Whether he will learn anything humility through it is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 06:58 AM

"NHS staff will die unnecessarily.”
Their pleas for adequate protection, which began long before the problem became a major one, seem still to be falling on deaf ears
Irish people with relatives in Britain are now demanding why the British Government has dragged its feet
Ireland took its first delivery of medical supplies from China yesterday - three days before its announced arrival
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:21 AM

Now for an   example of labour lunacy.
The country on lockdown and the halfwit wants to let 70,000 foreigners in. Plenty of young idle hands available in house (so to speak)We had a land army in ww2.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1262160/Sky-News-Kay-Burley-European-workers-coronavirus-news-UK-latest-COVID19-cases-pandemic

and another ( Brought by Guido in video format for the non believers.)
Following in the footsteps of Ian Lavery, in a Zoom call to supporters last week, Rebecca Long-Bailey claimed that the coronavirus crisis gives Labour the chance to campaign. Talking to what she thought was a group of just supporters, the leadership candidate claimed:

   “The case in this crisis is being made very strongly for socialism and we need to make sure that people don’t forget that all of the support that we’re pushing for, it is socialism.“

For the avoidance of doubt, a few months of emergency measures taken now are not socialism, will take years to pay off, and would be disastrous to deploy in normal times.


https://order-order.com/2020/03/30/rebecca-long-bailey-claims-coronavirus-opportunity-labour-campaign/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM

A prime example of whataboutism. Labour are in no position to bring any workers in to or from anywhere. The present government is being judged by what it does and it is failing to make the grade. Comparing that against what others may say is risible and dishonest.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:02 AM

The same is true of constant comparisomns with what the Irish government is doing. In the latter case there would also appear a despicable element of gloating


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:14 AM

The same is true of constant comparisons with what the Irish government is doing

No it isn't. Comparing what the UK does what other countries are doing and the consequences is sensible, whether those leaders be from Ireland, USA, China, Germany or anywhere else. What they do, and the consequences arising, can guide how the UK should or should not behave. If they do things that work, and we choose not to, it is right and proper to ask why not.

Comparing yourself to what people say who are in no position to do anything and there is no way to tell if or how well what they are suggesting would work is simply irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:32 AM

"and the consequences is sensible, "
Of course it is - and understandable when you consider how many Irish live in Britain
People here worry about the welfare of their families abroad - 11% of all N.H.S. workers are from Ireland
Once again Health representatives have been demanding why their staff are inadequately protected - one spokesman say that it is preventing many retired staff who wish to return to work during the crisis from doing so
How dare anybody suggest this is gloating ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM

Spot on DMcG. Governments, or anyone for that matter, should not be judged by what they say they will do. Only by what they actually do. Sadly we are in the situation where politicians cannot be trusted to do anything they say they are going to do anyway so the only possible measure is results. Current crisis aside, I have serious doubts whether the current administration will be able to deliver any good results.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM

What level of doubts do you have that a labour administration would be able to deliver any good results???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:00 AM

in my opinion there are plenty of things labour got wrong or could have done better - as an activitist i wish Jeremy corbyn had stood aside a couple of years ago, for example. any other supporters are also full of doubts and we were very amicably split over our choice to nominate the next leadership. more worrying for me is the blind devotion i see in the media and on here to what the government - boris johnson can do no wrong apparently. at it's worst thais adulation can lead to fascism - at best - while party loyalty is a good thing a good friend will have some doubts and be able to constructively criticise. the culling of questioning voices in the tory party is just sinister


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:12 AM

"Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:58 AM
"

As far as the few BS threads I read goes..

Definitely "post of the year"...!!!

We'll never know how good a Labour politician Jim could have been,
but he is definitely one of my favourite elder thinkers,
worth respecting and reading [not deleting],
when he is on form...


As to politicians we do have now or in the future..

Just because we vote for the ones on our sides who put themselves forward in public,
doesn't mean they are up to doing the job well if they do get elected...

Blind uncritical loyalty in the face of obviously poor quality leadership
is a symptom and cause of far worse to come...

Europe learnt that lesson the hardest way, long ago in my Mother's childhood.
The survivors dreamt of and endeavoured to build a better future for humanity..

So futile..

.. and now we have boris and dom...
the politically equivalent devastation of a neutron bomb...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:15 AM

Worky - we cross posted..
interesting that we indpendently arrive at similar assesments of a bad situation..
Now that I read your post...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:40 AM

Trying to surmise wot Labour "would have done" in this crisis is just mischievous. The CONTEXT of this situation is TEN YEARS of the Tories running down the health service, and as I indicated yesterday, several years of unpreparedness, neglecting the findings of studies and even ditching them part-through in their brexit obsession. Of course Labour wouldn't have done any better had they won the election: the measures to deal with a crisis such as this one simply weren't in place, and that is one hundred percent the fault of successive inept TORY administrations. You Tories are all so adept at reminding us about the "mess you inherited from Labour" ten years ago (conveniently forgetting, of course, that there had been two years of a GLOBAL financial meltdown), and most of you are still using that stupid excuse. So it's about time YOU admitted responsibility for the current shambles. If you really must surmise, how about surmising how well Labour would have done ten years ago, when no-one waited more than the 18-week target for their ops, when A&E departments were running well and not being shut down, when we had thousands more doctors and nurses and when patients even in benign times weren't queuing on trolleys in corridors. Now that WOULD be a fair way of looking at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:47 AM

And by the way, as of today this country has the capacity to carry out nine thousand tests a day but is managing just seven thousand. Germany is carrying out one hundred thousand tests a day and is expecting to double that in a few days' time. As we don't have a vaccine, the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts. If South Korea can do it and Germany can do it, why can't we? Instead, as a result of past Tory policies (or lack of), we are ruining thousands of businesses, throwing millions out of work and building a massive debt for future generations to pay off the likes of which have never been seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 10:47 AM

Right now it's more appropriate to consider all the costly time and tax payer's money wasting
ideological follies, white elephants, and vanity projects,
that all recent UK governments have been guilty of..

Time and money that should have been devoted to fundamentals
such as planning effectively for know plausible emergencies...!!!

They are guilty of populist distractions and stupidity verging on criminal negligence...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 10:50 AM

Isn't it fascinating to see people championing the wishes of the people by describing pupulism as democracy when the same people have regarded the peoples decision with contempt when it runs counter to their own ?
I think that sums up both populism and today's take on democracy perfectly
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 11:59 AM

What level of doubts do you have that a labour administration would be able to deliver any good results???

I may or may not have doubts, Bonzo, but it just doesn't matter. We can say for certain what Boris has or has not done. You can only speculate what would have happened in other circumstances. There is no comparison. And you still haven't told us whether it is Rebecca Long-Bailey's gender, social status or place of birth that you object to.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:04 PM

Just got a phnone call which reminded us how decent (most) people are deep down
Pat and I had not long finished discussing what we were going to do if 'cocooning' became compulsory fo people like us, which is likely when an elderly neighbour several years our senior called to ask us if we were managing to feed ourselves and saying her half-German son had offered to pick up anything we needed from town for as long as we needed him
Put's the Nigel Farages, Bernard Mannings, Jim Davidsons - and English absentee landlords firmly where they belong in the humanity stakes

"verging on criminal negligence..."
Amen to that - as long as they don't start feckin' about with Casualty, Holby City and Scott and Bailey :-)
Bad enough when the football gets them cancelled
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM

I object to her still stubbornly using the political suicide word "socialism"
[if it's true, as reported by news media and bloggers..???]...

She'll have to wise up to the realities of the outside world,
if she does become leader...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:21 PM

Quoted in full so that I am not accused of taking it out of context:
And by the way, as of today this country has the capacity to carry out nine thousand tests a day but is managing just seven thousand. Germany is carrying out one hundred thousand tests a day and is expecting to double that in a few days' time. As we don't have a vaccine, the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts. If South Korea can do it and Germany can do it, why can't we? Instead, as a result of past Tory policies (or lack of), we are ruining thousands of businesses, throwing millions out of work and building a massive debt for future generations to pay off the likes of which have never been seen.

Testing and tracing only serves to identify the problem.
Lockdown and 'Social Distancing' are measures that can actually be effective.
So to say that tracing and testing are an effective way to "battle the virus" is totally wrong, even if it does come from a self-proclaimed 'scientist'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:26 PM

So you all think you know better than the medical advisers to our government!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:27 PM

if it's true, as reported by news media and bloggers..???]...

Do you really believe the posted video was faked?????????????
(after all it was brought to public attention by Guido, the man you have yet to catch lying!)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:29 PM

As a reminder, here is what the WHO said:

====
The World Health Organization called on all countries on Monday to ramp up their testing programs as the best way to slow the advance of the coronavirus pandemic, and also urged companies to boost production of vital equipment to overcome acute shortages.

“We have a simple message to all countries - test, test, test,” WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told a news conference in Geneva, calling the pandemic “the defining global health crisis of our time”.


WHO calls for "change of mindset" to overcome pandemic shortages
“All countries should be able to test all suspected cases, they cannot fight this pandemic blindfolded.”
Without testing, cases cannot be isolated and the chain of infection will not be broken, he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:33 PM

Bonz - who does..???

I don't...

But it does depend on the specific medical advisers 'our govt' select to listen to..

We'll have to trust they are brilliant well qualified independent advisers,
and not carefully chosen to agree with partisan tory agenda...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

Iains - sorry.. I don't have time / can't be arsed to click all your selective links...

Besides, I've already made my views clear in the past months,
that I'm not too impressed with the current bunch of hopefuls
competing for Labour Leadership...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM

Pat and I had not long finished discussing what we were going to do if 'cocooning' became compulsory fo people like us,

Compulsory or advisory. Does it make any difference when it is for your own benefit?

Gov i.e. states:If you are over 70 years of age or have a condition which makes you extremely medically vulnerable you are strongly advised to cocoon, to reduce the chance of getting COVID-19 and follow the face-to-face distancing measures below........... published 27/3/20


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Though, I should qualify that with..

"Not too impressed so far..."

The future is no where near as clear cut as it was mere weeks ago,
when boris/dom celebrated victory...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:01 PM

Effective testing and tracing would make distancing far better as when the authorities know who is affected and where they can concentrate their efforts in the right areas. In countries where testing is extensive the spread is better contained than in countries that are not testing as well as they could. Partisan support of the government of the day, whethet they are right or wrong, is simply foolish.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:14 PM

To break a resolution for a minute so people who seem not to be are aware of the position of very many rural dwellers in Ireland, and I presume in Britain
Many live on their own, have no family or close friends and are quite often reluctant to bother neighbours who, they believe have enough to cope with as it is
We live a mile outside town and on a fairly busy road which has been spookily quiet for some time now
Many are not as lucky as us and live in remote scattered farmhouses up fairly inaccessible roads
The local shops are simply not equipped to do home deliveries and social services are unable to cope at the best of times
I lived in Britain's capital for thirty years and read regularly of solitary people dying at home and nor being found for days - weeks - months in some cases
I even read about fire survivors who narrowly escaped death in a horrific inferno being refused the use of vacant property because that would have gone against the 'Private Property' ethos that dominates Britain - I'm sure you must have heard about this yourself :-)
The PLanet Zog that some people appear to inhabit may have this sort of thing in hand - not here, I'm afraid
If there's something us oldies have had to come to terms with is that despite having devoted our lives and taxes to our country, our best chances of staying alive are to rely on each other and not those who we put in power to look after our well being - they are far, far too busy looking after themselves to bother about us crumblies
Over and out - I'll go to confession tonight to ask forgiveness for my breaking my 'British Summertime' resolution !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:16 PM

i owe my friend steve a pint (steve d not steve s) promised for the day the pubs reopen if we -and the pubs- make it through. other than can we cancel all debts please? from student loans, to hospital trusts pfi scams, benefit loans, mortgages, car loans, bank loans etc. that's the way to boost an economy. free rent for pubs and other socially important enterprises. what's the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:24 PM

"Testing and tracing only serves to identify the problem.
Lockdown and 'Social Distancing' are measures that can actually be effective.
So to say that tracing and testing are an effective way to "battle the virus" is totally wrong, even if it does come from a self-proclaimed 'scientist'."

Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't be responding to an ill-thought out post containing a gratuitous personal insult (parroting the self-same insult cheerfully employed by you-know-who...) However. We have yet to see solid evidence that a "lockdown" (that still permits crowded buses, tube trains and workplaces) can be effective. Testing, contact tracing (and subsequent action with regard to those tested positive, it should go without saying, but who knows with you, Nigel?) have been shown to be effective in China, Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea. At least one of those places hasn't even needed a lockdown. Spain and Italy both have severe lockdowns, but you'd have to try very hard to persuade a lot of people that they've somehow done much good. It stands to reason that knowing who is infected, who isn't, and preferably also who has recovered, gives a country a good head start in controlling the outbreak. And I'll unscientifically predict that the mass testing in Germany will shortly be seen to have paid dividends.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

"from student loans, to hospital trusts pfi scams, benefit loans, mortgages, car loans, bank loans etc. that's the way to boost an economy. free rent for pubs and other socially important enterprises"
I think that has to be a must if countries are going to survive, never mind families
It was interesting to learn this morning that all evictions of Travellers have ceased ans temporary bans on rent rises are now being considered - it will be interesting to see how the latter will be received in Ireland's Vulture Capitalism dominated property industry - damn - I'd forgotten our local betting shop is for the durtion
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:56 PM

Survivalist preppers may have been a bit of a joke..

But from now on, it's time Governments [left or right..]
learn the fundamental basics from them...


Btw.. How sick a joke would it be,
if there are still disused cold war bunkers in Britain,
locked up and forgotten, fully stocked with essential medical survival kits and respirators,
buried in dust & mould, and rotting away...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Jim you first point I have to agree with you. It goes deeper than you state. Rural isolation and loneliness impact suicide figures and closing the marts and other places where farmers may congregate compounds the problem for them, as did the tightening of drink drive laws. Obviously complying with the government edict is going to be a non starter for some.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/healthandlife/all-the-lonely-people-epidemic-of-loneliness-is-leading-to-ch


https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/farmers-among-those-most-likely-to-die-by-suicide-36723840.html

Perhaps the man mentioned last week with ref to Gougan Barra should be listened to. (Jan 1, 2020 - Michael Healy-Rae: Upsurge in feckers Drug driving is evidence that Government should relax the Irish Drink Driving laws.)    A rather novel take on the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM

"i owe my friend steve a pint (steve d not steve s)"

I hear that steve d has gorn teetotal. Can I have it instead? :-)

steve s


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

bloody spivs, always trying to capitalise on other folk's misfortune


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM

I blame Thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:44 PM

Thatcher would have privatised pandemics...

If only she'd done that..

By now they'd be as hard to catch as a local bus...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:38 PM

"if there are still disused cold war bunkers in Britain",
Before I was self employed when I worked for a firm that occasionally did Government work I was told about RSGs (Regional Seats of Government)
These were large secret bunkers intended to house 'Important People' in the case of nuclear Attack
I knew they had existed during wartime and shortly after, but my informant assured me they were still in existence, still fully maintained and kept stocked in case of an emergency
Does anybody have the time - my doomsday clock has stopped !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:17 PM

I should have explained that when I was told this I was working in a Pub near the Houses of Parliament and the RSG was said to be for the Parliamentarians
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:24 AM

A pretty damning analysis by Rupert Reid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:41 AM

Wow - terrifying when it's delivered with authority by an expert in one calm, articulate statement
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:11 AM

Jim, they   do/did exist. The regional control center in North Cheam was demolished in the 70's and a block of flats built on the site. My grandfather was told to get lost when he asked why the excavation was so deep during construction in the early 50s(He had been an engineer for the London Metropoltan Waterboard)
As bombs became larger excavations in clay offered little protection. Most if not all bunkers were inadaquate,including the deepbunkers on the northern line dating from ww2 and including Eisenhower's bunker at Googe street(or so the story goes)


https://www.subbrit.org.uk/sites/cheam-south-west-london-group-control/

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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:15 AM

Hope yuo don't mind Dave - I've taken the liberty of passing on your link to a couple of other threads in case some people have become tired of listening to ous whining Brits !
It's important enough not to miss
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:54 AM

I don't mind at all, Jim. It's not my link, I just brought it to your attention! The more that people hear what Dr Reid has to say, the better :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 05:02 AM

A live feed reports encouraging news from Ireland. It is important not to be chicken-counting, but with luck this will continue.

Let us also hope the UK can report similar things soon.

======
Encouraging news from Ireland: the daily growth rate in confirmed cases of coronavirus has halved and the country appears to have avoided an unmitigated epidemic.

Restrictions on social and commercial life and other measures have had an “enormous” impact, Philip Nolan, the Chair of The Irish Epidemiological Modelling Group, told a media briefing.

“The measures that the state has imposed and that the public have really complied with very, very strongly are having an enormous effect on the number of actual cases that we’re seeing today.”

However Nolan warned against complacency and said Covid-19’s growth rate would have to fall to “close to zero” for it to be suppressed.

The chief medical officer, Tony Holohan, agreed Ireland was seeing “encouraging signs” in the effort to flatten the curve but said the number of cases and admissions to intensive care units continued to rise, putting hospitals at risk of being swamped. Officials are especially concerned about clusters in nursing homes and hospitals.

Ireland on Monday confirmed 295 new cases, the second highest daily number, bringing the total to 2,910. It recorded eight deaths, bringing the death toll to 54. Northern Ireland has 533 confirmed cases and 22 deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:16 AM

Steve Shaw:
Your latest response shows that you finally understand the problem with your earlier post: the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts.
Testing and tracing are not, alone, going to effect the virus or its spread. Action needs to be taken on the results. This is not quantum mechanics where (according to Heisenberg) the testing itself has an effect on the subject matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:18 AM

If you look at a graph of the daily rate of infections in Ireland and the UK they both show similar behaviour in levelling out. But it is too early to be a convincing trend. London may well trend differently simply because of the density of population. The numbers infected in Britain has been dropping for the last three days, as have Ireland. Hopefully the trend will hold and continue to diminish on a daily basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:33 AM

As I said, Nigel, that goes without saying, except to you, to whom it needed saying. That's Nigel through and through, innit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:42 AM

Half my last post vanished for some inexplicable reason. So below is the necessary link

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Scroll down to the table, double click the country and thegraphs open up.

Some seem to overlook the fact that the exercise is not to eradicate the virus but control the rate of spread.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:54 AM

From today's Labour List:

"It transpired yesterday that ministers had claimed we had reached the government target of 10,000 tests a day – as Matt Hancock tweeted, and Michael Gove told the Sunday shows – but that was not accurate. They are now saying this referred to testing capacity, which went up to 10,949, whereas tests actually carried out was just over 9,000 and the number of individuals tested was 7,000. However, we now know that the level of daily testing then fell to fewer than 5,000 people in the 24 hours before 9am on Saturday. Only 900 frontline staff were tested over the weekend in a ‘trial run’, according to Downing Street.

The simple fact is that the UK, as articulated by Professor Antony Costello and others, has been too slow. The government has failed to contact UK clothes makers who are willing and able to produce PPE. While wasting time is a key ongoing failure, there is also a serious lack of transparency. There is no real clarity about why the testing capacity isn’t being used, as Labour’s Jon Ashworth has highlighted. NHS doctors have also told The Independent that they have been gagged from speaking out about shortages, with their social media posts being monitored and careers threatened.

The handling of coronavirus has been described as a “national scandal” by prestigious medical journal The Lancet, by trade unions, by NHS staff. And yet there is apparently overwhelming public approval of the government response to the crisis. Boris Johnson's satisfaction ratings have increased to 72%, recent polling found. Some like to hold up such numbers to imply that criticism should therefore be toned down – especially from Labour representatives, who could be accused of point-scoring at a time of national crisis*. But as all of the above shows, there are urgent failings that must be brought to attention."

*Of which I myself have been accused here. In a democracy, valid criticism of the government is suppressed at our peril, and those who would suppress it veer towards totalitarianism.

Lies, damned lies, twisted statistics, fake news...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 07:46 AM

The 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals, which were built in *one week* is an incredible achievement and everyone involved should be very proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM

"The 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals,"
The head of this hospital has just announced on television that protection for the medical staff is woefully inadequate, putting their lives and well being at risk every time they go into work- this appeal is now several weeks old
Yas Bozo - irt is aan incredible achievement - what a crying shame the Government are giving the medical staff the support they vitally need to do their work

There seem two messages coming out here - both in my opinion, equally valid
The official version is "We;re doing fine and are on top of the problem" - essential to prevent widespread panic
From those actually faced with tackling the virus face-on there have been demands for adequate equipment being made for weeks now
Until this particular circle is squared all the good-news propaganda will be meaningless
Get a grip you lot - it's your party - stop covering up for the tardiness of these 'Clowns in Clover' - it's you and me at risk - they'll be whisked into intensive care if they sneeze over the pepper
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM

Creating the 'Nightingale' hospitals is indeed an important step, and I do not downplay its significance.

But creating the building is the easiest and the least important part of the whole thing in many ways. The doctors, nurses, medical supplies and so on are nothing like so easy to get as converting a building. Yes, I know lots are coming out of retirement. But we are also losing a lot at the moment through necessary isolation.

The NHS staff have worked incredibly hard to get where we are, but sustaining that intensity over perhaps six months rather than two weeks is going to be a huge ask.

The buildings are one vital part of the jigsaw. But only one part.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM

nevertheless, putting party political drivel aside, the 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals, which were built in *one week* is an incredible achievement and everyone involved should be very proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:56 AM

it's you and me at risk
I suggest you take up your crtiticism with the country you are resident in!
Last time I looked at a map County Clare was not a part of the UK.

You are not very consistant are you? One moment you say Ireland is leading the way, then you say you are at risk.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM

"nevertheless, putting party political drivel aside"
Nothing Party political about it Bozo, any more than 'nationalist' as your friend would have it
We are all at risk - those living under a Government that does its job properly are less at risk and wherever we live, if you silence Brits you are covering up the blunders of your own administration, which directly affects members of my family
Stop wagging flags and face facts otherwise you become part of the problem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:34 AM

Wag wag wag wag wag wag!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:35 AM

everyone involved should be very proud

All the builders, manufacturers, designers, labourers and so on, I quite agree. They have worked hard and done all that could have been expected of them. Praiseworthy indeed.

But if the nurses and doctors are simply taken from elsewhere in the system, they have built a PR exercise more than a hospital, since that does not in itself increase the total care available. And that would not something to be proud of.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM

Iains - we already refuted your petty false argument about Jim's right to comment on Britain..
If you can't remember that from a mere day or two ago...???

..personally I'd be worried, if I had such serious short term memory loss...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:41 AM

Are those Nightingales primarily intended as mass end of life hospice wards...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM

I see the visas have been extended for the NHS workers from overseas for a year. That is a very sensible move (See, I can praise the government when it does the right thing, even when it is Priti Patel!)

A significant proportion of our nurses come from the Philippines. The last thing we want is to lose them because of visas expiring.

I find it surprising that - as yet - the government of the Philippines has not offered substantial packages to those nurses to return home and look after their own country, friends and family. If they do, and they make it tempting enough, that could be another huge problem to solve.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:44 AM

If Jim wishes to play thevictim card it is not unreasonable to expect that he does not lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:06 AM

Obviously pretty much a waste of time trying to communicate with these two using words of more that two syllables P - Shirley Valentine got a more intelligent response from her kitchen wall
"because of visas expiring."
Nah that'll wait til the crisis is over and (if) Brexit kicks in; then they can send all the applications to Croydon for shredding
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:28 AM

But if the nurses and doctors are simply taken from elsewhere in the system, they have built a PR exercise more than a hospital, since that does not in itself increase the total care available. And that would not something to be proud of.

It may not provide more carers, but it does have a definite benefit in that staff (doctors/nurses/cleaners etc) are not mixing with two sets of patients, those with Covid19 and those in hospital for other reasons, possibly with weakened immune systems. This avoidance of cross-contamination is very important and shouldn't be belittled.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:38 AM

it seems a while ago that we were discussing whether we were able to offer criticism of our own preferred political parties. us 'left' folk did offer a few examples but are still waiting for the supporters and apologists for johnson and his party to offer similar more balanced criticisms of their own 'side' --

anyone recall the good old days when we repeatedly asked for examples of the benefits of brexit?

As trump (or the tories in england) is victorious, great and never wrong - are you going to the church to give praise at easter?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:48 AM

https://twitter.com/eyespymp/status/1244970232432726019?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1244970232432726019

1) Ignore cocconing for over 70s. Check
2) Ignore social distancing .    Check
3) Ignore instruction to stop unnecessary journeys. Check

That is Jeremy Corbyn for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:58 AM

Well, lets see.

Corbyn is seated which would seem to suggest that he has not moved to be within 2 metres of the other chap but that the chap standing has moved to within 2 metres of Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM

what a surreal conversation .....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:08 AM

It seems that moving carers about like chess pieces is preferable to providing protection for them all
It's getting to be like an episode of 'The Prisoner'

Even the BBC , 13 weeks ago, was aware of what the Government are still dragging their feet on now
AND IF YOU'RE IN NEED OF HELP ALREADY !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:29 AM

Some of us are closer to The Prisoner than others.


I could not be bothered to change into the full get-up at the moment, though I wore it all on my last day at work. "I am not a number, I am a free man!"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:33 AM

The leader of Her Majesties Opposition is supposed to set an example!
A piss-poor one is not quite what most people had in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:52 AM

Iains - you seem to be floundering a bit today..
Resorting to your lower standard tactics trying to provoke a response..

Hasn't it been made clear enough that now is not a time for block headed
divisive party politicking..

.. and yes, criticising the inadequacies of the ruling govt of the the day
is a legitimate requirement in a democracy..

I'd be having a go at Labour ministers if they were in power,
and failing to cope effectively with a pandemic...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM

It's not often that the entire human race is in the same boat - except of course North Diarrehea!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:13 PM

For Christ's sake PFK
These are the twats who refused to comment on the fact that a bunch of Tory ministers and advisers were photographed bunched together on a flight of stairs in the full knowledge that two of them, The Prime Minister and Health Secretary had already contracted the virus
SOME ******* "GOOD EXAMPLE EH ???
Floundering more than a little, I'd say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:32 PM

SELF-DISTANCING, DOWNING STREET STYLE
There you go - an example to us all
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:35 PM

I'd be having a go at Labour ministers if they were in power,
and failing to cope effectively with a pandemic...


Well positive news. Time to congratulate the government for a sterling effort!

Michael Gove

Of the NHS's ventilator capacity he added: "Orders have been placed and I can announce that this weekend the first thousand ventilator machines will roll off the production line.

"They will be delivered to the NHS next week."
This is a time for absolute clarity and accuracy, not carping and nit picking. Matthew 7:5


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Jim:
There's no need to continue posting links to that picture of ministers on the Downing Street stairs.
As it says below the picture: 'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video
That Guardian link is from 27 March, so 'weeks before' must take it back at least until 13 March, which was before any UK guidance on self-isolation, or on 'social distancing'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:52 PM

I don't like gove.. I certainly distrust gove..
.. and if I were a tory, i wouldn't turn my back to gove.
unless I was wearing a stab proof vest..


But if he is the bearer of genuinely positive news.. Thanks..

AS long as he don't make too much of a personal PR opportunity out of it...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM

Nigel - boris is cooped up in a converted pigeon loft above number 11
with a confirmed positive test..

Thats's NOW, not weeks ago..
that must say something about the poor judgement of such a clot...

Even trump seems to have been more proactively/preemptively protected from himself
by his closest handlers...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:10 PM

" 'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video"
It doesn't say that his shaking hands relates to the photograph, which was taken outside the meeting covered by the article
The same photograph was used in various newspapers, making the same point - some clown at Westminster spread the bug
Lets face it - if a man moving towards a seated opposition leader is comment-worthy what the hell is this ?
The fact that Johnson wasn't being tested after a Minister contacted the virus answers that one - as you have yet to
None of your lot seem to be too bovvered about the treatment of health workers on the front line either
Makes you proud to be a Brit eh?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM

My favourite conspiracy theory [which I might have made up..]

is boris actually never tested positive at all, and has been clear of the virus all along..

But gove told him the test came back positive,
as he urgently ushered the PM up to the roof
for a week or two...!!!

Tories - NEVER TRUST GOVE...!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:25 PM

"is boris actually never tested positive at all, and has been clear of the virus all along.."
Great minds - except I thought more in terms of a sympathy f*** - shame on us both
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:27 PM

Any congratulations are premature. Wait until the measures save lives and see if we come through this relatively unscathed. It is to be hoped that the government will use any respite brought about by social distancing to implement a proper text and trace regime like South Korea.

As to what the leader of the Labour party may or may not be guilty of, I repeat that the party in control of the country is the Tories. Boris is at the helm. Whatever goes wrong is firmly at his door. The opposition, as has been pointed out by gloating right wingers, can do nothing of any significance. Drawing attention to anything the Labour party may say or do is nothing but noise to divert attention from the failings of the present administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:55 PM

Iains - you seem to be floundering a bit today.
I never flounder, I know my plaice and I'm a dab hand at quoting facts. I never rely on cod science.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM

But your main problem is..

you frequently try too hard to convince us
you have no sole...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:07 PM

btw.. 10 full points to anyone who can work in "halibut"..

It defeated my efforts...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

I was going to see the Halle but the concert has been cancwlled.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

""halibut"."
We'll have to put that one to halibutration, I think, then we'll see the whiting on the wall
Holby City calls I'm afraid
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

could you tory boys, just to appear like resonable well-balanced people for a change, just give voice to some doubts or equivocations about your glorious leaders - go on - just for the halibut. we won't tell on you - ian duncan or ian smith


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:54 PM

Many singers have been broadcasting concerts from their homes, we watched the wonderful Soledad Pastorutti, an Argentine superstar over dinner!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:55 PM

We are too koi to carp.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:32 PM

Sally used to live in our alley but not any more.

Just saw in passing a bit of a TV doc here about one of HRH Charlie's various properties, a farm complex somewhere in Wales. The plummy voiced narrator, having described it as a Cottage, went on confidently and comfortably to enunciate that a building further removed from a palace could hardly be imagined. Has this creature never seen a tenement, a tower-block, a terrace of little back-to-back units?

How do so many people put up with this drivel?
How much do those in other countries laugh at us?
How much longer can "the juggle" (Thomas Paine, 1790s) continue?

Pure ragin' so Ah'm urr.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:38 PM

What you mean is that the narrator speaks properly.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:42 PM

No, he didn't, to tell ye the truth. He pronounced "properly" with only two syllables, an affectation of the English upper-middle class since about 1975/1980. And the message struck me as even more unpleasant than the accent.


"When the Sage points at the Moon, the Fool looks at his finger."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:09 PM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:25 PM

"Right or Wrong, I'm Right."

ABCD


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:05 AM

That's the third time you have used that in as many days, Bonzo, and it wasn't original in the first place!

Just been watching something on TV that involved a Daily Mail reporter speaking against the government. Things must be bad. It was along the lines of who to believe. The government say that PPE is getting to the NHS. Doctors and Nurses in the field day not. The government say that chemicals to make testing kits are in short supply. The manufacturers say not. Who do we believe? This is not just about party politics. It is about confidence. People are realising that a party led by a man who has lied his way to the top are not to be trusted with things as important as the nation's health. No amount of pithy slogans will get us out of this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM

No amount of pithy slogans will get us out of this one

Johnson rehires election chief to sharpen coronavirus messaging

No one denies getting the message across clearly is important. But the message needs to be how we are kept safe and keep ourselves safe. It is about us (the people) not them (the politicians). And I strongly suspect the remit of Levido will have making the government look as successful as possible as a key part, or even the main goal.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:47 AM

Dave the Gnome, I know who I believe. So does virtually everyone else close to an NHS worker (even if sometimes they have to be more than two yards away).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Johnson has finally come clean and admitted the Tories have lagged way behind
He said he will take personal charge - God help us all (lock up your wives and daughters)!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 05:22 AM

Following up from what Dave posted, this is from today's Labour List:

"Testing is the focus of media coverage today, with the Daily Mail branding it a “fiasco”. They have a point. The government is pressed every day for answers on why exactly the UK seems to be stuck on testing capacity, but a straight-forward answer is rarely offered. The latest reason is that there is a global shortage of chemical reagents, according to Michael Gove. Labour’s shadow business minister Bill Esterson has pointed out, however, that companies in the UK can make them but have not been asked to do so. This was checked by Robert Peston, who contacted the Chemical Industries Association, which said there was no shortage and they were happy to increase production anyway. Why, then, is the UK falling behind Germany and even the US on testing? The answer, it seems, lies in our initial strategy of mitigation and ‘herd immunity’ rather than suppression. Jeremy Hunt has agreed with that conclusion."

Blimey, even the Mail. Even Jeremy *unt! So yet another bare-faced Tory lie from Gove.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM

I never look at the business pages but on my way to Codeword my eye was caught by a magnificent photo of a circling vulture in an article listing the number or vulture companies taking advantage of the present crisis - if it worries The Times, it scares the shit out of me
If this isn't a clarion call for British business to be turned over to public control - at lease until the world is well clear of the effects of all of this, nothing ever will be
These bastards have been allowed to thrive on the tragedies of others for far too long (go count the number of politician shareholders and investors)
Predatory property investment brought about the worldwide crash of 2008, Ireland's desperate housing shorting is now being picked on by companies like Goldman Sachs - these predators thrive on the misfortunes of the majority - they prolong hunger, hardship, wars and disease rather than helping prevent them - all for profit
Like the Irish Famine, this is an unpreventable natural disaster that could turn into the long-term catastrophe possibly deliberate mishandling produced here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM

'we are too koi to carp' - excellent pun, I and I DS. much better than an answer to my question. i would doubt i'll be complementing you again - so don't get complaicent.

fin


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:23 AM

The answer, it seems, lies in our initial strategy of mitigation and ‘herd immunity’ rather than suppression. Jeremy Hunt has agreed with that conclusion."

suppress = forcibly put an end to.
The government announced it was moving away from contain/suppress to delay on March 12th.
I suggest you read the government action paper and try to understand the government's phased response.
1)Contain
2)Delay
3)Mitigate.
The decision to step up the response from Contain to Delay and then Mitigate will be taken on advice from the UK’s CMOs, taking into account the degree of sustained transmission and evident failure of measures in other countries to reduce spread.
(gov.uk coronavirus-action-plan)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:33 AM

evident failure of measures in other countries to reduce spread

States like South Korea and Singapore you mean? Even China after its initial poor effort? Are you so partisan as to try and justify why your party is not learning from those who got it right?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:45 AM

Slight change of subject, but it is closely linked, and it is happening as I type.

My next door neighbour had a severe toothache yesterday. He called the dentist but he cannot be seen because of isolation. He was told if it is still bad today, try again.

This morning he collapsed about 6am, as far as we can tell at the moment because of infection setting in. An ambulance was called over an hour ago (on 111 advice) but has still to arrive. We also know that a nephew died of sepsis in similar circumstances.

We hear from the Chief Medical Officer that the equivalent of 5 (I think) hospitals have been 'created' through re-prioritising things. That is, in effect, people like my neighbour not getting prompt treatment.

There will be a lot of deaths that are indirectly due to the virus, I think, which are just as important as deaths directly due to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

I meant to add to the previous
As we have had a waterfall of defence for what the Government had now admitted to be the case, I now await with bated breath the screeching of these same 'patriots' defending the right of international companies to pick over the corpses of industries that will inevitably fall foul of the present crisis - staunch Brexiteers all, no doubt
Let's see, shall we - maybe they'll just think it's not worth commenting on
Very fishy - to keep a bit of light relief going
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM

I wondered about urgent dentistry, DMcG. My wife and I have both had non urgent appointments cancelled. I hope it turns out ok for your neighbour.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:01 AM

Did you mean to type "unpreventable," Jim? Potato blight in the 1840s might have been unpreventable, but the famine certainly wasn't. At the height of the famine Ireland was still exporting tons of butter across the Irish Sea, for example. Many commentators have railed against the use of the word "famine," for the very reason that it's a word that implies that the starvation of thousands of people was unavoidable.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

evident failure of measures in other countries to reduce spread

Written by the UK government, If you do not like the tone of it take it up with them. There are a sufficiency of moaning minnies on this thread.
I also made it perfectly clear as to the source of the statement(gov.uk coronavirus-action-plan)

Some are just too ready to jump in with both feet before understanding what they are reading.

The government is taking a proactive response ie staged and reacting to external data as it becomes available.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM

"Written by the UK government, "
Who have just been dragged and screaming into reluctantly admitting their own
"gov.uk coronavirus-action-plan"
Dated March 3rd when they were still lying through their teeth anbout their own shortcomings
They still haven't addressed the fact that medical staff are risking their lives and health because they haven't enough protective equipment to keep them safe, which is also preventing others from volunteering
"Famine"
When I refer to this Steve, I am talking about the overall outcome - sorry- my shorthand
I have written enough about both the avoidability and the possible deliberate nature of the mass starvation which took place
Many Irish people refer to these events as 'Ireland's Holocaust' and I'm not uncomfortable with that descriptin
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:02 AM

The last ditch defense. "It wasn't me wot said it, guv..."

Fine. If you don't believe it, don't repeat it. If you do believe it, then tell us how Singapore and South Korea are failing. Tell us how the latest Chinese methods have not stemmed the flow. Tell us how the measures taken by the UK government are better than the measures of the countries just mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM

...and I suggest that you switch off attack mode. Personal assaults on other Muscat members such as "moaning minnies" and "jump in with both feet before understanding what they are reading" are likely to get your entire post deleted. That would be a shame as any valid points you may make alongside the gratuitous insults will be lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

I have little time for politicians but I have to say that our lot seem to have the edge (on this anyway)
It has just been found that testing is taking too long here and two patients have died without it being known the cause of either
Immediately this was announced by a government spokesman who said action would immediately taken to improve matters - along with an immediate apology
Apart from it not happening, yo can't really wish for better than that

The BBC is again reporting that shortages of protection equipment for front-line health workers is a major problem
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

I have little time for politicians but I have to say that our lot seem to have the edge (on this anyway)
It has just been found that testing is taking too long here and two patients have died without it being known the cause of either
Immediately this was announced by a government spokesman who said action would immediately taken to improve matters - along with an immediate apology
Apart from it not happening, yo can't really wish for better than that

The BBC is again reporting that shortages of protection equipment for front-line health workers is a major problem
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

Sorry for daring to comment about what's happening back home, by the way
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 09:24 AM

Update on my neighbour: The ambulance arrived after around 1h 45 mins. The medics stayed with him for something like 40 minutes, because it seems they are trying to treat people at home when they can to keep the hospitals as free as possible. But they think there are signs of sepsis and have now taken him into the local hospital. His wife is, of course, not allowed to accompany him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM

We are not going to know who adopted the best tactics to minmise fatalities from this virus until long after the event. We do not know how many are infected,,who actually died from the virus directly ot even how effective testing is. We are likely still several weeks away from peak levels. The population density in London will pose special problems

                  positive               Deaths
Italy                  105,792               12,428                          
Spain                95,923                 8,464         
Germany          71,808                 775                 
France                52,128                 3,523         
UK                   25,150                 2.352                 
Switzerland      16,605                 433         
Belgium          12,775                 705                 
Netherlands    12,595                 1,039                 
Austria            10,298                  128

It is rate of hospitalisation and demand for intensive care versus the beds available that will influence final outcomes. The death rate will continue to rise until the lockdown takes effect. The common flu kills 14000 every year in the UK. This is a new virus with an unknown mortality rate. We will be lucky if it is less than 0.1%.
The virulence may reduceas the dayswarm, it could mutate to a renewed virulence come the autumn. There are simply too many unknowns at present and the mainstream media merely muddy the waters in search of cheap sensationalism. The UK was thought to be better prepared than most countries for a pandemic. Tiime will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:00 AM

We have a different issue. Our elderly but quite active neighbour had a stroke a few weeks back. While he was being treated in hospital they found he had cancer that had spread. They brought him home a few days ago but, sadly, he passed away this morning :-(

Visiting rules had already gone out the window of course but we shall wait until weekend before we attempt to talk to his widow. Just shows that in time of crisis it is not just life that goes on. Death still happens from all the usual caused too.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM

"We are not going to know who adopted the best tactics to minmise fatalities from this virus "
It's not a ****** competition Iains and making it such is going to lessen the possibilities of co-operation - no-one wants 'other other side' to win
Those who represent us and those connected with us are all we can concern ourselves with and Britain and Ireland are close enough in distance culture and history to learn from one another
Britain only admits its shortcomings when it has no other alternative - under the first-past-the-post system and the fact that they have the popular media in their pockets, they are allowed to get away with that
For all its shortcomings, our system doesn't make that so easy
Johnson has now come clean, at least on one important issue - it's about time his supporters did likewise
Defending faults with whataboutism, which is what competition like this is really about - only makes matters worse
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:36 AM

absolutely, jim. in the last week we have had 3 friends die - one in Cumbria, one in Bari, Italy and today our friend in Aberdeen. while the latter had been ill for some years with MS the others were virus victims. of course, there is no difference, they are all good people loved and missed by friends and family - grief and fear is something we can share the world over as a unifier. we're all from somewhere, doesn't matter where


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:38 AM

"We are not going to know who adopted the best tactics to minimise fatalities from this virus "
It's not a ****** competition


Nor does it excuse you from trying to do your level best to minimise them now. So getting PPE in place now can only help. That makes it perfectly valid to ask why that is not happening to the extent strikes are being threatened over its absence.

Getting the tests the government wants to do in place now rather than later can only help. (Even if the tests are less useful than we thought, it is a good idea to know that as soon as possible.) Making it valid to ask why Gove thinks we are short of reagents when the manufacturers says we are not, and have not even been asked. "Is there evidence the government did ask this manufacturer" is a fair question.

Saying we can only judge things at the end is not how any plan I have ever come across works: you assess them continuously wherever possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 11:13 AM

the mainstream media merely muddy the waters in search of cheap sensationalism

And right wing bloggers with sensationalist columns in the mainstream media clarify everything?

Sorry, but if we are to discuss politics without the acrimony that has closed previous threads we need to know what is and is not acceptable. You cannot complain that mainstream media muddies the waters when they disagree with you and then quote mainstream media when it suits you.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 11:15 AM

"you assess them continuously wherever possible."
A-bloody-men
I'm lucky to to know anybody who suffered and much of that (certainly here) has to be down to those in charge and the fact that there are enough around with a bit of clout to tell them when they are nausing up without having to wait for the next election - the difference that a PR system and an openly critical popular press makes is almost palpable sometimes
Lessons to be learned maybe
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 11:32 AM

no team would start the season with 'this is the 11 guys in the team and this is the way we will play all season.....lets just see who ends up on top when it's all over'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 12:28 PM

You may right that down WM
A quick glance at the BBC virus Update indicates that them in charge might just have got their fingers out at last - at least they are talking about testing thoroughly now

When the mainstream media withholds information or plays down Government shortcomings you have every right to draw attention to this
You only have to look at the scurrilous way they treated Corbyn and - if that was not manipulation my Jack's a kipper
When the information we are entitled to is in the hands of a handful of right-wing oligarchs we have cause to be worried and every right to express out misgivings, whatever the mods tell us we can't do, I'm afraid - "whinge" and be damned I say
If we had a press we could rely on we might be ale to sing a different song
Hands up all those.......
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 01:25 PM

My apologies to the person
for whom I thought I was putting out a welcome mat.
I started a thread thereon.
The thread was deleted and I have been told
that I did not put out a welcome mat,
I hung the person out to dry.
That makes me as clueless as ever.
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

t's not a ****** competition Iains

There is a worldwide shortage of the reagent required for testing. The Irish deputy chief medical officer has just mentioned this as being a problem. It is also a problem in the US. Ramping up testing has put this chemical in short supply.
HSE apologises to those waiting for test results, Taoiseach ...
RTE.ie-4 hours ago
... testing for Covid-19 due to the global shortage of testing kits, reagents and ... challenges in terms of securing supplies of reagent for testing.

Robert Peston: Is Michael Gove right that there is a shortage of ...
ITV News-31 Mar 2020
... in increasing the number of Covid-19 tests is due to a shortage of the ... capacity to increase testing overall is supply of the specific reagents,

Limited reagent gives rise to limited testing


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

https://qz.com/1822596/all-the-coronavirus-test-materials-in-short-supply-in-the-us/

If Europe is also extracting RNA I assume similar reagents are required and need to be manufactured to the same rigerous standards.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/world/europe/coronavirus-testing-world-countries-cities-states.html

Not a very inspiring story for many countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 02:10 PM

"Limited reagent gives rise to limited testing"
A friggin' excuse again
We seem to have no problem - why should you
ITV gets its information from Government sources - what else are THEY going to say


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

We seem to have no problem - why should you
wgat part of below did you not understand?
RTE.ie-4 hours ago
... testing for Covid-19 due to the global shortage of testing kits, reagents and ... challenges in terms of securing supplies of reagent for testing.

and

HSE apologises to those waiting for test results, Taoiseach says there will be some delays
Updated / Wednesday, 1 Apr 2020 19:03

Do you ever read anything before clattering all over your keyboard?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 04:40 AM

From Robert Paxton of ITS news 2 days ago.

Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry.

It has contacted its members, and they've said there is no shortage of the relevant reagents.

So the Association has now been in touch with Mr Gove's office to find out what he means, because it is stumped.

The Association also points out there was an industry chat with a business minister on Tuesday, who made no attempt to find out if there was a supply problem for the vital ingredients of Covid-19 testing kits.

So this question of why there aren't enough tests for the virus is an even bigger mystery.

Also, if it turns out there is a shortage, these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production.

But they need to be asked, which has not happened.


We have 2 stories and as I said earlier we make a choice of who to believe. Someone who knows what is happening in the industry or a politician trying to cover his own arse.

Hmmm!. Tough one. NOT!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 04:42 AM

Robert PESTON.

Damn spill chucker.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM

On Tuesday evening, ITV Political Editor Robert Peston made extraordinary and widely shared claims that "there is no shortage of the relevant reagents" – implying that the Government was either lying or simply hadn't bothered to ask around. His tweet has attracted over 14,000 retweets and 20,000 likes.

His single anonymous Chemical Industries Association source could be right. On the other hand, Guido has pulled together some other people who might just know what they are talking about:


Let Guido enlighten you with a worldwide recap as I mentioned several poosts back.

Peston fact checked:


https://order-order.com/2020/04/02/pestons-testing-shortage-disinformation/
Tis always best to fact check before posting. Seems a failing of the left.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 11:14 AM

Still question of who to believe. Peston, a serious established journalist with a reputation for the truth Or Staines. A sensationalist blogger with a criminal past. I know who my money is on and who most people are likely to trust. You make your own choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 03:32 PM

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink!
Another ad hominem attack I see. Is that the best you can do when your argument is proven to be fallacious? Below are some of the people most likely to know.
Professional Association of Laboratory Medics, Germany: “The association is worried that the materials required for testing — sample kits, materials for extracting samples, and reagents — are becoming scarce”
    Department of Health, Australia: “Due to global demand exceeding supply, stocks of all laboratory related testing consumables are under considerable strain. At the moment there are particular concerns around supplies of swabs and DNA extraction kits.”
    Centre for Disease Control, United States: Important reagents are “now are in short supply,”
    Leo Varadkar, Ireland: “The current cause of delay is a shortage of reagents. We hope to address that but then there may be a shortage of something else. We have to be honest about that – we will hit delays.”
    Chief Public Health Officer, Province of Manitoba, Canada: “Right now the major roadblock is the reagent and that is worldwide.”
    Center for Disease Control and Prevention, South Korea: “Kwon Jun-wook, deputy director of the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said … it was true that Roche Diagnostics’ supply of reagents for nucleic acid extraction was not stable.”
    Health Ministry, Israel: Deputy Director General Prof. Itamar Grotto said that “Unfortunately what we just received is not exactly what we needed. The test is comprised of many components and the main problem is that we are missing swabs.”
    National Public Health Surveillance Laboratory, Lithuania: “The reagent kits have been shipped out but have not yet arrived. Supply chains are breaking down. We are following the situation and trying to coordinate.”
    Metropolis Health Ltd, (registered lab offering tests) India: “Since resources are limited, including protection equipment for sample collectors and reagents, we have decided to prioritise testing to those who are most at need.”
    Virology Laboratory at Italy’s National Institute for Infectious Diseases, European Commission Coronavirus Advisory Group: “major companies that provide the reagents that labs need to analyze tests are reaching “the maximum of their capacity,” said Capobianchi, noting there’s also a need for more swabs for collecting samples. “I don’t know how long they would require to scale up their capacity,” she said of reagent producers.”


Alastair Campbell, who regularly mimicked Peston's habit of flicking back his hair, once responded to a question with the words: "Another question from the Peston school of smartarse journalism"

The laddie is not so smart after all.
His original tweet
Robert Peston
@Peston
.@michaelgove
said just now that the difficulty in increasing number of #COVID19 tests was due to a shortage of the relevant "chemcial reagents". Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry. It...
6:53 pm · 31 Mar 2020·Twitter Web App


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 03:41 PM

Dave the Gnome:

From Robert Paxton of ITS news 2 days ago.

"Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry.
It has contacted its members, and they've said there is no shortage of the relevant reagents.
. . .
if it turns out there is a shortage, these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production.
But they need to be asked, which has not happened.
We have 2 stories and as I said earlier we make a choice of who to believe. Someone who knows what is happening in the industry or a politician trying to cover his own arse."


It seems the unnamed source is uncertain whether there is a shortage. He categorically states there's no shortage, and then says that if there is a shortage they can do something about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 03:51 PM

You pays your money and takes your chance. I have no reason to believe Peston did not check his source. The main telling statement to me was

"Also, if it turns out there is a shortage, these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production.

But they need to be asked, which has not happened."

I have no need to convince anyone. More than enough people do not trust anything that comes out of this government.

Which ad hominem attack are you referring to BTW? "a sufficiency of moaning minnies on this thread", "Some are just too ready to jump in with both feet before understanding what they are reading", "Do you ever read anything before clattering all over your keyboard" or "The laddie is not so smart after all"?

You have already been spanked and had personal abuse deleted. Are you sure you want to continue down that route?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM

Dave,
I take it that second part was aimed at someone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 05:26 PM

It all was, Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 05:56 PM

Mrs Steve and I stepped outside at eight to cheer and applaud the front-line workers of the NHS, the supermarket workers, the carers and the teachers. We're a quarter of a mile from neighbours and we thought we couldn't be heard, in spite of our hollering on top of the clapping. But I thought I heard voices... I shushed Mrs Steve, and sure enough we heard a response... from the two donkeys up at the farm, who started braying like mad when they heard us. It was great to hear that the animal kingdom are on our side...

...Then I came in to see the arch-hypocrite Tory Hancock on Question Time wearing his NHS badge... I refused to be downcast... I reckoned that those donkeys had their finger-equivalents on the pulse far more than these Tory degenerates have...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 06:39 PM

And let's face it, the labour party are doing absolutely mothing ........ah I'm forgetting they were thrashed in the last election!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 06:48 PM

I hurredly wrote this whilst holdng on to the urge to run to the bog,
pressed "Submit message"..

and mudcat decided to take a day's holiday..

so buggered if I'll waste it...

==============================

BBC news reporting our clot of a PM is in trouble for using ZOOM
for online ministerial conference meetings..

a] because ZOOM is being investigated for it's security systems..

b] because he twitter posted a screen shot of his ZOOM security passwords, something like that..
[ I'm on the way to the bog in a hurry..
google for exact reported facts if you're arsed enough..]..

Trust this div to run a nation...!!!???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Apr 20 - 10:03 PM

Hee-----Haaaaaw!!!
~[]):-{ >


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 03:33 AM

Hi y'al - hope ll is still well with you
Nothing seems to have changed over the long silence
Boris the Brainless's sheep are still defending inaction, indifference and contempt from The Clowns in Clover despite the fears and continuous efforts of those on the Virus War-front   
FORGOTTEN HEROES
"GROUNDLESS" FEARS
Maybe they'll get what's coming to them when we are able to rake over the ashes of this fiasco, though as they'll be carrying out the now inevitble enquiry, I doubt it - not guilty on all counts, no doubt
They'll probably blame the last Labour Government
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:08 AM

Interesting contradiction
The British American Tobacco Company are seeking a cur for the virus
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:11 AM

Which ad hominem attack are you referring to BTW?
Howsabout this one:

Staines. A sensationalist blogger with a criminal past.

Yet he managed to destroy Peston's troublemaking allegation with irrefutable facts.

Tell me where I am in error.

As always when the left refuse to accept the message, they attack the messenger and when called out make a pathetic attempt to act the innocent.
By your post you would appear ignorant of the meaning of ad hominem

Yourconcernwould be better placed trying to undersyand the postion of the government faced with inadaquate testing gear in limited quantities and decideing whether to give priority:
1)to front line NHS workers
2)to patients
3)to the wider community.In order to introduce higher precision for modelling and hence forward planning.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/COVID-19:-Chinese-companies-selling-defective-test-kits-abroad-49698.html
You seem to expect black and white answers when the entire world is in the twilight zone of a pandemic. In the real world black and white is a bonus in many situations, outcomes from decisions are often uncertain.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:44 AM

"cur "
Meant cure of course but I wouldn't put it above those murdering bastards to try everything out on dogs first
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:46 AM


Morning all. Just to let you know I'm still here. A gentle reminder that personal attacks get up my nose and seem to serve no useful purpose. I really don't like deleting things but if the level of these attacks gets too high, I might have to delete to clear up the thread a bit.

Hope you are, and stay, safe.

By the way, those of you listening to Hancock's speech yesterday - when he said the government was "stopping at nothing" to ensure testing/ ppe got to every necessary place or whatever the words were... my twisted mind did wonder...

Before you yell, I was joking!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 04:58 AM

THOUGHT HANCOCK WAS DEAD
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:29 AM

Thank God for Matt Hancock

John Crace is a sketch writer for the Guardian, so as a rule his articles are humourously critical of the Government (how humourous being a matter of taste, of course)

Here he is actually praising Hancock quite a bit for his press conference, even suggesting it as an exemplar for how do so such things.

Just worth noting in passing, I feel, that people are not just attacked because they are 'the other'.

There are still lots of holes in the government stance: a target of 100,000 by the end of April is all very well, but I could have a target of being a millionaire by the end of April: Targets without plans to achieve them are not enough, and at the moment the plans are not too settled:

Speaking to Good Morning Britain, [Matt Hancock] said: “We haven’t put in a breakdown of the different type of tests.

“It is a 100,000 goal across the five pillars of the testing strategy. I haven’t actually pencilled any in for the home test – the antibody tests – and the reason for that is because we so far haven’t found one that works and so I’m not going to pencil any in, but if we do find one that works obviously that will be great.


So well done to Matt Hancock on the performance last night. It needs to be kept up and brought to fruition. But it is also important to stick to what he implied in that extract: the tests need to work. I would far rather we only got 50,000 reliable tests than we got to 100,000 but using tests that did not really work. I think that is a trap the Spanish may have fallen into: caring about the numbers more than the quality. We have to avoid that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:30 AM

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a term is applied to several different types of arguments, most of which are fallacious. Typically it refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Good examples being "a sufficiency of moaning minnies on this thread", "Some are just too ready to jump in with both feet before understanding what they are reading", "Do you ever read anything before clattering all over your keyboard" or "The laddie is not so smart after all"

A bad example being comparing the qualifications of two people making opposing arguments to determine which one is likely to be telling the truth.

But, as I said, I know who I believe and I reckon the majority will agree. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant and further labouring of the point will serve no useful purpose. I suggested that you step back from the personal attacks a short while back and I think that sentiment was confirmed at 4:46 AM so maybe you should take notice.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:37 AM

”As always when the left refuse to accept the message, they attack the messenger“

...thus spake the man with the world’s shortest memory, especially where his own behaviour is concerned. Do ‘Grauniard’, ‘Magic grandad’, ‘Abbopotamus’, ‘Abbacus’, or ‘Little jimmie’ ring any bells?

Words like ‘pot’, ‘kettle‘, and ‘black’ spring to mind.

In the meantime, a very interesting POV piece here from Dr. Rupert Read - an academic who, unlike Paul Staines, did manage to complete his studies and achieve a PhD - about the government’s handling of the Covid-19 crisis...

https://youtu.be/aKTwBbge4lQ

And I wonder what is happening behind the scenes about the reckless escapade of Brexit? Any negotiations in progress - for instance by conference call? Or has the Covid-19 crisis given Cummings and Johnson the perfect cover for allowing us to quietly drift over the cliff-edge of no-deal? Nothing like a good crisis to hide bad news, after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:49 AM

It is well worth listening to what Hancock said when he said "we will listen to what people have been saying"
Isn't that what they should have been doing when it first became obvious that it made sense ?
How many mistakes does it take to get this lot doing exactly that instead of standing up on their hind legs when the like of Scummings whistles ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:49 AM

It is well worth listening to what Hancock said when he said "we will listen to what people have been saying"
Isn't that what they should have been doing when it first became obvious that it made sense ?
How many mistakes does it take to get this lot doing exactly that instead of standing up on their hind legs when the like of Scummings whistles ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

Steve put Reid's frightening statement up some time ago Backie - well worth doing again just in case some of the nodding dogs are moved to even acknowledging it though - do far, not even a denial
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM

Ah, sorry Jim, I’ve been trying to make myself take a bit of a holiday away from the toxicity of this thread, so I must have missed Steve’s post.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 06:30 AM

Apologies not necessary Baccie - well worth repeating
Hope you didn't go to Bondi Beach or MEXICO for your break
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 06:32 AM

Remember, some of us are still working!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

It was me that linked that piece, Jim, not Steve. I know we are both from Manchester and of a similar age but we are easy to tell apart. I am the handsome one :-)

Good article from the New Statesman magazine

The real reason the UK government pursued “herd immunity” – and why it was abandoned


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:11 AM

Sorry Dave - you all look the same from over here :-)
I've seen your photograph - poor Steve eh ? :-)

"Remember, some of us are still working!!!!!!"
Defending the indefensible while watching crap Argentinian pop singers nausing up good songs over dinner doesn't count as work
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:16 AM

Remember, some of us are still working!!!!!!


Work? ... work?? ... yes, I seem to remember that word from somewhere!

;-)
DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:34 AM

Jim - :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:37 AM

Apparently, our Brexiteer-Press have never heard the expression ‘Having your cake and eating it’!

Would somebody please tell the Ex-Press that we left the EU at 23:00 GMT on 31/1/20?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM

"Would somebody please tell the Ex-Press that we left the EU at 23:00 GMT on 31/1/20?"
And that particular bumwipe was one of the most enthusiastic reasons for Britain leaving
To take cue from their invention - "Remoaners" - how about an "Ex-bleative" too late too late"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 10:54 AM

Bonzo3legs posted "Remember, some of us are still working!!!!!!"

Indeed some of us are still just about working, hoping to hang on in there until this current situation eases up.

I get the impression that most of the frequent posters here are not working any longer. Is that the case? Of course, posting to this list does not count as work. What does it count as though? I sometimes think that posters from both 'sides' are auditioning to become one of Mr Cummings advisers in No 10.

If not that, what? There does seem to be a lot of preaching to the converted. Are posters hoping to convince casual readers to change their point of view after dipping into this thread? Personally I would be worried if anyone comes to these threads looking for political enlightenment.

How many people just come here to read the threads? They are mostly populated by the same handful of posters. From my own calculation (please note that other calculations are available) since 03.11 on the 30.3.20 until 08.11 on the 3.4.20, 14 different posters contributed to the thread. Of those 14, 3 posted once and 1 posted twice. I think it safe to say that no opinions were changed in these 5 days.

We are living in strange times. Let us hope that as many of us as possible manged to live through it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:26 AM


I get the impression that most of the frequent posters here are not working any longer. Is that the case?


Speaking for myself, I retired at the end of November 2019, so am a newcomer to this retirement lark. I do still have a consultancy agreement with my last employer, but I said I would not be available until April. I am not expecting to be inundated with work just at the moment.

I would not expect anyone's views to change much as a result of any of these threads, but that does not mean I see no value in them. I remember a couplet from one of the introductory songs to 'That was the week that was' which went:

One eye opened wide, one eye closed,
And between the two the picture gets composed.

There seems to me to be a lot of truth in that. I find reading what others have written helps me develop my understanding. It is unlikely, I accept, that anyone is going to say something that completely changes my viewpoint, but they can and do draw things to my attention that makes me say "Let's think about that."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:41 AM

Nobody’s forced to read these threads, it’s not compulsory.
I spend considerably more time, and set far more store by, certain guitar-related forums. I’ve learned a very great deal from those, whereas I’m not really convinced I’ve learned anything from the BS section here - other than confirming what I already knew, that some people are ass-hats.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:50 AM

I retired in July 2019 and I posted more before that as, being on call / standby a lot I had more time on my hands!

As to motives for posting. Where do I start? Why discuss anything with anyone? We all know we will change no-one's mind. Some may think they can make a valid point. Others may enjoy some feeling of false superiority. Some just like the cut and thrust. Why do you post, Rain Dog?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:52 AM

['m still (sort of) working supporting disabled people in the community. at present i'm self-isolating on govt advice (i'm 64 with blood pressure, asthma etc) however, i'm doing what i can as a union rep for our members. i'd like to retire though i have the best part of a couple of years to go - but the current situation is making me think about that. i have also thought that not many of us on here are still working and wondered how much contact we have with family and friends and getting about in their community. one or two people give the impression that they don't engage much other than with a screen. ach well.....suppose that's all of us now.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:04 PM

Should have said I retired eight years ago after working for a few months short of fifty years. Retirement’s by far the best job I’ve ever had.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:10 PM

well.....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:35 PM

"Retirement’s by far the best job I’ve ever had."
It is for me too, but we were in a position to move to somewhere we could afford where we wanted to b and survive on the proceeds of out London home
It almost makes being sentenced for thirty years in a place we didn't want to be
Not a lot of people are that lucky
Now I have come to realise I won't have enough time to finish everything I need to te make sense of our lives - but we're happy someone else will
That's why I love having become involved in folk song
**** all that maudlin nonsense - I'm going to live forever
TOP of the WORLD MA !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM

Two days ago Iains posted some interesting information which raises numerous questions. He posted:-
                  positive               Deaths
Italy             105,792               12,428                        
Spain             95,923                8,464         
Germany            71,808                775               
France             52,128                3,523         
UK                25,150                2.352               
Switzerland       16,605                433         
Belgium            12,775                705               
Netherlands       12,595                1,039               
Austria            10,298                128

There would appear to be significant difference between testing positive and fatalities between various nations. Germany, Switzerland and Austria appear to have far lower fatality rates other countries.

So are we asking them how they are managing the crisis, are we asking them how they are caring for the sick.

It would seem they are doing something that other countries are not, something that appears to be beneficial.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:48 PM

Based in the ExCel centre, the NHS Nightingale Hospital will be able to hold as many as 4,000 coronavirus patients, we should be proud and thankful that such an amazing facility was put together in just 9 days.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 12:54 PM

It was put together by the army in the main, Bonzo. At least the present administration have the sense to use the armed forces sensibly for a change.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM

"we should be proud and thankful that such an amazing facility was put together in just 9 days."
Worth repeating that it's a shame that failing to produce sufficient protection for the medical staff will possibly put off getting staff for this magnificent and essential facility
Already this hospital has been downgraded for the treatment of LESS CRITICAL CASES

Are you people really more concerned about covering up the shortcomings on behalf of your Government, than meting the needs of the victims ?
You really need to tune your instrument instead of political bum-kissing
Bozo
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:23 PM

Raggytash: The source data, scroll to the table.
Here

More testing,catching the asymptomatic, (thus boradening the victim base, more rigerous determination of cause of death where co-morbidities exist?
As yet the conundrum is unanswered. Do they have a better approach, or is it differences in collation? I am sure mant people are studying the German figures to see if lessons cn be learnt. This crisis is likely to last way beyong the initial lockdowns being discussed. Trying to restart with a "Clearance" certificate is fraught with difficulties. It merely captures a moment in time, just like an MOT cert. The following day you could become a budding typhoid Mary.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

What a shame you lefty pefties can't have things your own way, Oh dear what a shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Totally pointless attacking post. Please stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:46 PM

Clearance certificates come with other problems too. will there be a market value in forging them? Or will a simple photocopy do? How do you prove the person carrying bff the certificate is who is named on it? Who will be authorised to demand "Show me your papers!" and in what contexts?

Plenty of problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:53 PM

"What a shame you lefty pefties can't have things your own way, "
And what a shame the rabid right care more about their glorious leaders than the people they constantly betray
You haven't even bothered to deny these facts Bozo - how can you ?
Jim Carroll

Jim, is a post containing the words 'leftie pefties' worth responding to? Does it not provide a clue that it is trying to inflame a response?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 01:58 PM

Sensible political comment for Bonzo yet again I see. At least he is not rolling out his latest "we would both be wrong" joke yet again :-) In the meanwhile the right wing in the UK carries on gloating while Rome burns...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:23 PM

In the meanwhile the right wing in the UK carries on gloating while Rome burns...

A bit shy on examples there gnome. Looks to me like you are merely flamebaiting again.

Well stop responding if you think it's flame baiting!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:51 PM

You have been bragging how many less victims there are in Britain than elsewhere since this began Iains - you even provided figures which, I doubt were included among your many postings deleted
Go and check

I have family of direct Irish extraction living in Merseyside and in Cumbria; some of them, like many Irish in Britain, became nurses in the NHS - for the respect, the cushy jobs, short hours, long holidays and the astronomical wages, of course !!!
Given their backgrounds, I have little doubt that the retired ones will have got their names down to give a hand in this mess
It will be a long time before I forget the contempt shown for their kind by people like you and Bozo, neither of whom have ever shown anything for contempt for either Irish people or medical staff
Bozo has invented a special language for Catholics and you.... well !
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 02:52 PM

Examples? How about

What a shame you lefty pefties can't have things your own way, Oh dear what a shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for a start?

sigh, why are you responding to the comment?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 03:36 PM

I went home with a waitress the way I always do
How was I to know she was with the russians, too?
I was gambling in havana, I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns, and money
Dad, get me out of this


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 03:39 PM

The Prince of Wales has opened the new NHS Nightingale at the ExCeL Centre in east London with the hospital becoming the world's largest
critical care unit less than two weeks after work began.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 07:56 PM

OPEN GOVERNMENT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM

Re #BBCbreakfast & Covid19, if available, can you imagine our doctors & nurses in WWII stopping to make AMERICAN pop videos & get their faces on TV?! Our culture & society have been ruined by mass economic/CAPITALIST immigration; my poem "The Old Dart"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

DMcG posted at 01.46 about the use of certification papers. I live most of my life in France (although am in the UK due to the virus stopping travel) and over there the use of certificates is required for all activity outside one's own property.
The forms have to be printed off the government website and contain a list of things that are acceptable, such as shopping, exercise, doctor/pharmacie visits, caring for relatives I think and a couple of others. You also have to take a form of identification (only passport, photo driving licence, Carte de Sejour) and these are checked along with the form. A new form is required for each activity and it is very strictly enforced with police or army checks even at some supermarkets.
I'm not saying this is the way forward, just that it is being done with no apparent 'black market' or identity theft. People, in the main, seem to be adhering very strictly to the rules over there.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:31 AM

Thanks for the feedback. Barb'ry - which by the way feeds into my earlier comment that I use these threads more for extending my understanding, rather than trying to persuade other people.

It is fairly common in the UK for people (especially the poorer ones) to have no passport and no driving licence. I know one person who is disabled and has no photo id at all, so some solution would need to be found for people like that. It's not impossible, by any means, but it would still have to be addressed.

I admit my comment about forgery was really just a resuscitation of a concern about id cards. Broadly speaking, the more valuable something is, the greater the incentive to forge it. A form that anyone can print off at any time but you just have to have on you is a low value item so not worth forging. If one were to introduce a 'ration book', on the other hand, I imagine there would be a market for forging those. It is well worth forging passports and there is a small but thriving market for forged 'blue badges': the more inherent value in the object, the more it is liable to be forged.

So if the forms are simply printed off, there is no point in forging. But if, for example, certain streets could only shop on Mondays, others Tuesdays, etc etc, I could see a 'Monday' person wanting to forge a 'Friday' permit if stocks ran low.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:33 AM

Keir Starmer has been elected leader of the Labour Party, with more votes than Corbyn won with in 2015. A massive mandate…

Leadership:

    Starmer – 56.2% ELECTED
    Long-Bailey – 27.6%
    Nandy – 16.2%


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:42 AM

That is good news for all, starmer is very sharp and should provide a decent opposition to johnson!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:34 AM

If Starmer shows any interest in the welfare of the people as a whole he'll go the way of Corbyn
That's the way it works nowadays Boris and his Braindeads, with the assistance of a take media (and International right wing extremist allies), of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

good news - i supported corbyn but feel he should have stood down a couple of years back. i am glad to support keir starmer and angela rayner and wish them well. we have been reading on here for some time that rebecca long-bailey was going to win and continue in corbyn style - but i never thought that would happen- there is certainly no appetite for that in our local labour party. it will be interesting to see what the media make of keir starmer's win.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:46 AM

I thought Rebecca Long-Bailey was a better option to keep the Labour party true to its roots but I also think Keir Starmer is more likely to win back the electorate. I wish him luck and hope he can remove the factionalism that has caused no end of damage. Once we have a united party and have regained the support of the voters we can start to rebuild the party to the socialist model it should be.

Sadly we will still be in opposition to a party that, with its massive majority, believes it has been given the mandate to shit on the poor and destroy social care with impunity. At least the coronavirus has barred their way to selling off the NHS but I am sure they will find other ways to line their pockets.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:56 AM

I have thought Keir Starmer a better choice for a long time - well before the last election - and think he will do a good job. But as we are often reminded, the Conservatives are in power and have a huge majority, so there is almost nothing that the Labour Party can do in practice.

I do agree with those who say that Keir Starmer should not take up the offer to 'work with' the government over this virus - it is nothing more than a chance to share the blame, since the government will still, quite properly, take the decisions. Stick to the role of the opposition to question the government about how well it is handling the coronavirus, praise them where appropriate and criticise them where appropriate, but do not fall into the Lib Dem trap of being the whipping boy for everything that went wrong during the coalition.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:00 AM

Rather than talking personalities, I would find it helpful to see people nearer to things than I am discussing principles, remembering what the Labour party is supposed to represent (the clue used to lie in the name)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

Just watched Starmer - he's an opportunist shit with his head up the establishment's arse and an eye on his own career - what more can you expect from The House of Lords
JIm


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM

C'mon Jim. Tell us what you really think :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:17 AM

i'll take it you never voted for him then, Jim? whenever anyone slightly more progressive than blair is elected as labour leader they get hammered by the right in the party and of course by the media. there was nothing more sickening to me in recent years than seeing right wing labour queuing up to do everything possible to take down corbyn and the more hopeful members of the party. it will be difficult to stomach the likes of chucka umunna or other repellent tories making conciliatorytory noises.....however, if we want to get anywhere with more progressive politics we will have to be more canny than we have been without diluting the '17 manifesto or the green new deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

Just remembered something I intended to post the other day. In Marvel's "Black Panther" film someone said being a good man makes it difficult to be a good king. I thought it was pretty true of any leader that has to make life and death choices.

And, yes, I know it is fantasy. I love the super hero genre. It doesn't stop them from being quite profound at times!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 08:45 AM

"i'll take it you never voted for him then, Jim? "
I can't vote from Ireland but I'd have thought twice before I voted for someone already in the House of Lords without having to get there by selling those who voted for him out (before anybody asks, Benn was born with that particular milestone around his neck and given that, he bore his brden quite well for someone with a built-in deformity)
Corby attracted Socialists back into their traditional and rightful home-place by impressing them with his socialist principle - he put them above his political ambitions and his party's lemming-like tendency to play the Westminster game
I admired Blair as a young man - look what a shit-hole he made of the Labour Party
This Pandemic is going to have to change people's thinking if the British People are going to cme out even where they started, never mind improve their lives      
Already the quick-fix vultures are circling and it hasn't reached its peak yet
The Tories used to have principles of sorts - The Brexit Blunder shod that the door
Now we have an unprincipled, uncaring moron surrounded by a bunch of unelected bullies at the helm
Logic says that in the short term a Government coalition is inevitable - if that coalition is formed by a bunch of Parliamentarians seeking to return things to where they were - what a waste
When Starmer kicked off by accusing his party of being riddled with Jew-haters - that confirmed all my misgivings I didn't have to have been ay Belshazzar's feast to see the writing on the wall
Sorry 'bout that
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 09:22 AM

I hope that Hilary Benn is brought back into the shadow cabinet, he's a good man.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 09:32 AM

Well I voted for Becky Long-Bailey because she's a damn sight closer to being a principled socialist than either of the other two. Soft left is about right. It'll be interesting to see how long Starmer can keep up his all-things-to-all-men stance. For now he has to be our hope. I'd like to see Angela Rayner play a big part now. She seems very sure-footed and she doesn't suffer fools gladly.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:29 AM

As Starmer only won 35.1% of the vote I am sure many will call it merely advisory and demand another ballot. As Corbyn won the argument many staunch corbinites wil insist he is still King.
After all having heard all these arguments repeatedly apropos "Brexit"
I have no doubt we will hear the tired old mantras all over again.
I do have to concede Starmer was the best of a pathetically poor bunch.
Even Kinnock had far more credibility.
Appointed Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB) in the 2014 New Year Honours for "services to law and criminal justice he rather lowers the bar for Labour candidates. There is nothing of the working class of this particulat laddie with his private education and Oxbridge degree.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:44 AM

”As Starmer only won 35.1% of the vote I am sure many will call it merely advisory and demand another ballot.“

According to the LP website, it was 56.2% of the votes cast.

Unfortunate things aren’t they, facts?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:51 AM

Leave it, John. At least Corbyn and anti-semitism get a rest now. Well, for a day or two. There is nothing that the right wing plant can say about Starmer that would bear comparison with the lies already told by and damage already done by BoJo


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 11:12 AM

"At least Corbyn and anti-semitism get a rest now."
Not as far as I'm concerned it doesn't Dave - sorry
This scurrilous lie lost the Labour Party one of its major chances of returning to its principles since the post war Government - if you believe it won't be re-erected by Iains's friends if principles ever show their uncomfortabl heads in British politics again
I've always felt disappointed that far too few fellow Travellers on this forum found it a bit of a nuisance and avoided putting in their own two-pennyworth
As far as Starmer is concerned 'Put not your trust in Knights of the Realm - their lances not there for decoration - their there for spit-roasting anyone who stands in the way of their ambitions to keep their beds well-feathered
What did the feller say - "keep your friends close but your enemies closer"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 11:14 AM

True enough, Dave. Although I was tempted to say that, the poll being held on the basis of the single transferable vote, the result is a true and secure indication of the ‘will of the (Labour Party) people - considerably more so than the ‘first past the post’ Brexit Referendum result.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 11:17 AM

Unfortunate things aren’t they, facts?

Keir Starmer won 275,780 votes, spoilt ballots and non-voters totaled 293,284 votes, 56.2% of the votes cast or 35.1% of the votes possible. The lack of enthusiasm for any of the candidates is clear, in terms of the absolute numbers “none of the above” was the winner. In comparison in the 1994 leadership election Tony Blair won 507,950 votes…
You are absolutely correct facts are unfortunate, but I always check mine prior to posting. I recommend you do the same.
Once again Guido supplies reliable figures.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 12:10 PM

Re COVID19, stable doors & bolting horses at the Cheltenham Festival, & the Virtual Grand National, my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, questioning "Horses for Courses?"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 12:34 PM

Give it a rest please, WAV.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:26 PM

From wiki:
2 April 2020         
Turnout        490,731 (62.58%)[1]
        
Candidate         Keir Starmer         Rebecca Long-Bailey         Lisa Nandy
Popular vote         275,780             135,218                79,597
Percentage          56.2%                   27.6%                  16.2%


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:27 PM

”You are absolutely correct facts are unfortunate, but I always check mine prior to posting. I recommend you do the same.
Once again Guido supplies reliable figures.“


Complete, unadorned tosh.

Re-read your post of 10:29 AM, which I quoted in my post, and pay proper attention to the terms in which it is couched. I responded precisely to what you stated, and in the same terms - and the figure I quoted is correct, as evidenced by the official Labour Party Result Page on the website to which I linked.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

Who cares? Labour are a million miles from government anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:31 PM

And you’ve even agreed with me in your post of 01:26 PM.

Just remind everyone again what you were saying about checking your figures before posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:32 PM

You appear to have a sticking key on your keyboard, Bonzo. Been dribbling on it, have you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM

Hilarious! Give the left the same arguments about the labour leadership election that they applied to the brexit Referendum and watch the flak.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM

"Candidate   Keir Starmer         Rebecca Long-Bailey         Lisa Nandy
Popular vote         275,780             135,218                79,597
Percentage          56.2%                   27.6%                  16.2%

Given that Starmer received more votes than the other two candidates combined any comparison to the referendum vote is irrelevant.

Just someone trolling and flame-baiting it would seem.

As always it is best to ignore.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 03:31 PM

Correct, Raggy. Normal Service will be resumed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 05:21 PM

The Labour Party membership will never, ever, elect a woman as leader- for the same reason the party is fundamentally antisemitic. For all their talk of equality and progression, regardless of leader, it remains a backward looking socialist party of yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 06:50 PM

how many years have you spent in the labour party, bozo? how many members - or trade unionists have you spoken to about these matters? this really is complete bullshit. there is no problem with women or with anti-semitism. we do have a problem in the party with people who hate our last leader and have a real problem with anti-establishment policies. jeremy corbyn was too tolerant with these traitors and spent all his time on the back foot because of it. my worry is that keir starmer will be more accommodating with these people. my impression is that the membership want nothing to do with all this infighting and want a positive, united left of centre party that recognises its enmeies and takes the fight to them instead of each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:28 PM

I'd swear too many tories, and even further right nutters,
are far more obsessed with the Labour Party
than an average Labour voter ever is...!!!???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 20 - 07:42 PM

Damn good post there, pfr. Spot on, old chap.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:32 AM

And the labour nutters?????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 03:09 AM

" jeremy corbyn was too tolerant with these traitors "
Absolutely
Now one of them has been elected leader which makes "a United Labour Party" a problem
Unless Labour returns to principles instead of looking for rescuers on white horses who have just stepped up rom their Round Table Labour will become as disunited as the Conservatives have become in the post Referendum years
The only way the Tories have managed to stay afloat after the recent Breasco has been via a putsch to rid itself of anyone of principle
If Labour is not careful that is what SIR KEIR will engineer
The rabid right know this, hence the support he is getting for its representatives here
Can you imagine TR's darlin' boy supporting a Labour vote for as he is this one
Corbyn had all the weaknesses of an inexperienced leader but he has pronciples and a knoweledge of why Labour was set up in the first place
The first thing this twot did was to promise to weed out the 'Jew Haters (should read "opponents of the Israeli Regime")
Wake up and smell the Reichstag burning before it catches a hold fellers
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM

the national health service needs to be strengthened and the party that has let it run down need to be punished by the electorate if there is anybody left to vote


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 03:50 AM

"Labour vote for" should read "Labour vote for Corbyn"
Goes without saying but I've just said it
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM

The Labour Party membership will never, ever, elect a woman as leader

Says the man who believes Rebecca Long-Bailey should never be in a position of power because she "sounds like a cleaner off Coronation Street"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 AM

The same feller and his mate are also happy to compare black women politicians as ugly animals and support A MISOGYNIST THUG who is happy to pay for sex using taxpayers money
No attacks on the Jewish People - no antisemitism -- simples
THIS IS WHAT REAL ANTISEMITISM LOOKS LIKE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM

The first thing this twot did was to promise to weed out the 'Jew Haters (should read "opponents of the Israeli Regime")
Wake up and smell the Reichstag burning before it catches a hold fellers
Jim

Inflmmatory remarks like above do not hide the reality, spoken by one who knows.

His actual words were: Antisemitism has been a stain on our party.......
and I will tear out this poison by it's roots!"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2020/apr/04/keir-starmer-labour-leadership-acceptance-speech-in-full-video

I imagine the leader knows a tad more about the problem than any commentator on this forum. He starts 8mins 40secs into his speech.
It seems very clear and unequivocal to me.
This is of course backed up by the government quango enquiring into the problem of antisemitism within the Labour party- a dubious honour only shared by the National Front.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/equality-body-launches-investigation-of-labour-antisemitism-claims
There are those who continually bury their heads in the sand and try to deny there is a problem, but the electorate perceives otherwise.
From the Guardian post election:
Graham Jones, the former Labour whip, said the campaign became so bad in his constituency of Hyndburn that canvassers began to play a form of “Corbyn bingo” as they counted the votes leaking away from usual Labour supporters.

“Four out five voters would not vote for Corbyn and his policies. Door one wouldn’t vote for him because he was scruffy; the next person wouldn’t vote for him because of antisemitism in the party; the next because of connections with Hamas; and the next because he seemed unable to lead. On one road, you might get the full set,” he said.


The wilderness beckons!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:40 AM

As the quip has it, where there's smoke there's sometimes a fire. But sometimes there's a smoke machine.

That you are convinced there is no anti-Semitism is not enough, Jim. I know quite a few people who normally votes Labour and have no connection whatever with any Jewish relatives, neighbours etc, but were still reluctant to vote Labour in the last election because of the anti-Semitism charges.

In the end, the only people who can declare Labour 'free from smoke' are those who raised the smoke alarm. Starmer knows that, so it was right that he raised the issue in his acceptance speech and vowed to sort it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:50 AM

Looking forward to our Tesco delivery this afternoon!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

The new leader has a poisoned chalice admirably outlined by an opinion piece in Unherd.
https://unherd.com/2020/04/the-last-thing-labour-needs-is-unity/


Unity. According to Sir Keir Starmer, it’s the pre-requisite for Labour to re-establish itself as a serious party of government. As he put it recently (and has said repeatedly): “I don’t think there’s any victory without unity.”
Instead of seeking to assuage the anger of Corbynite members because their hero will no longer be leader, Sir Keir should confront them and — as Neil Kinnock did with Militant in the 1980s — highlight the grotesque chaos of having such people in a mainstream party.

Had Neil Kinnock not fought and defeated Militant, Labour would have ceased to exist as a mainstream party in the 1980s. The situation today is of course different, but the same dynamic holds; if Sir Keir refuses to fight the hard Left, Labour will continue on its current trajectory and cease to exist.
It’s obvious why he won’t. For one thing, the hard Left now dominates Labour’s National Executive Committee by 21 votes to 13


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

"That you are convinced there is no anti-Semitism is not enough, Jim"
It is up to those making the accusation of serious antisemitism to provide examples of attacks on Jewish People - so far there have been a tiny handful which, in my opinion have arisen because Israel has equated its own policies with being Jewish by making critiscism of those policies "ANTISEMITIC"
Up to Crobyn declaring support for Palestine, there had not been a whiff of an antisemitism in The Labour Party - not one
Within a month of that statement being made, Labours 'Friends of Israel' were invited to Jerusalem, where it attended a meting with members of the Knesset - a few weeks later these claims started
Yes - non Jews have made these claims - many are 'Friends of Israel'
These are typical
Loise Ellman - Friend of Israel spent a year in Jerusalem
Lucianna Berger Director of Labour Friends of Israel - romantically linked to Tory Blurr's son

Others are part of the 'New Labour' crowd who have been trying to get rid of Corbyn since he appeared on the scene - go and check
One of the Jewish Labour MPs who claimed of being antisemitically harassed is a self declared admirer of Netanyahu and was invited to rallies and private meetings in Israel

I have been following these complaints since they began - my family have been involved in opposing attacks on Jews since before I was born - my grandmother was arrested for hitting Mosley with a stone and my father volunteered to fight in Spain when he learned what was happening to the Jews in Germany - according to these people I am an antisemite

Israel is run by an extremist right-wing regime guilty of human rights abuses and war crimes - they have persistently been saved from standing trial by over thirty US UN vetoes
In 1982 they facilitated the greatest organised massacre of civilian since since WW2 when their army armed and opened the gates to killers who massacred up to 3,500 unarmed refugees, those trying to esacape were turned back by the Israeli army
Eye-witness, Jewish American nurse, Ellen Seigal has dedicated her life to bringing Israel to justice - she is "antisemitic" too
The only antisemitism here is that by those who would make actions such as these "Jewish"
Tell me what of what I have written is not true - nobody has so far
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:42 AM

See - moe support from Tommy's friend
If that doesn't confirm Starmer's pedigree - nothing will
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:29 AM

I second every word of your post, Jim. You could also have mentioned other detestables such as John Mann, Margaret Hodge and Ruth Smeeth, disreputable and dishonest to their cores. I must say, I hold out little hope that Starmer will make much progress. Still, as they say, elections are there for governments to lose. By any measure, the disastrous way the Tories have handled this crisis ought to condemn them to permanent opposition. But they'll no doubt get away with it. Plenty of big guns on their side ultimately, and Starmer has all that vacillating-over-brexit baggage with him which will no doubt be fully exploited. Looks like we're going back to New Labour but without the charisma.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

And one thing that simply must not happen is any sort of "national government." It's fine to say that we'll work constructively with the government, whatever that's supposed to mean, but what's needed now more than ever, confronted by the disastrous shower that are currently in power, is firm, critical and conspicuous holding of the government to account. Nothing too cosy, please, that will end up with Labour "sharing the blame" for this current shambles.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:51 AM

Mann
Anti Corbynite Baron in the House of Lords
Mann has faced criticism for allegedly perpetuating racial stereotypes in an out of print booklet he produced on antisocial behaviour in 2007
Hodge
"In July 2018, the National Executive Committee (NEC) adopted a code of conduct on antisemitism which was based on the IHRA's working definition while omitting or modifying examples of antisemitism, including defining how criticism of Israel can be antisemitic.[62] Hodge subsequently said that Labour's refusal to adopt the full set of unamended examples for disciplinary purposes "make the party a hostile environment for Jews. It chose to entrench antisemitism....
Jewish anti-Zionist groups signed a letter of opposition to the IHRA definition, calling it a "distorted definition of antisemitism to stifle criticism of Israel".
Labour Friends of Israel

Ruth Smeeth - a doozie, this one !!!
In June 2016, Ruth Smeeth resigned her position in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet as Parliamentary Private Secretary for the shadow Northern Ireland and Scotland teams. This was part of more than 60 coordinated resignations from Corbyn’s shadow cabinet organised by plotters with the aim of precipitating a no-confidence vote and forcing his resignation. The plot failed.

Smeeth then staged a stunt at a press conference where Corbyn was launching a report into the manufactured claims from Labour’s right wing that the party under his leadership was anti-Semitic. Smeeth stormed out of the meeting, with her office later claiming she had been reduced to tears. She made an official complaint to the party after claiming, “a Jeremy Corbyn supporter” had “used traditional anti-Semitic slurs to attack me for being part of a ‘media conspiracy.’

Smeeth claimed that under Corbyn, Labour was not a “safe space for British Jews”. She called on Corbyn to stand down as the leader of the party – “immediately and make way for someone with the backbone to confront racism and anti-Semitism in our party and in the country.”

In the meantime, the Chicago based news outlet – The Electronic Intifada reported in December 2016 in an article entitled – UK Labour MP Ruth Smeeth was funded by Israel lobby:

   “Official records show that Ruth Smeeth was funded by two ultra-wealthy figures from the same pro-Israel organisation she once worked for. But these relationships have been overlooked by the British press, which have extensively reported on her allegations of anti-Semitic abuse at the hands of Jeremy Corbyn supporters.”

Good, honesr politicians dedicated to their cause (whatever that is!!)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM

The reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcuoEVcsLcs


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 07:03 AM

Can I just add to this that blurring the lines between attacks on Jews and criticism of Israel is then most dangerous thing to have happened to the Jewish people since the end of the War - it denigrates the Jewish State by defending actions which would have been tried in the UN had America not intervened
It also paints a target on every Jew on the planet for claiming they are responsible for crimes comparable to those which led to the extermination of six million Jews
The first people to draw attention to this were Albert Einstein and thirty of his Jewish fellow scientists in 1949, shortly after the Jewish State was founded
Read this and weep
ndependent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Monique
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

Jim's link


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Thanks a million Monique
You once explained how to do the Independent but I seem to have lost the knack
Keep well
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Monique
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM

You're welcome! You have the whole thing explained here.
I try to keep well, thanks.
To the tune of The Wagoner's Lad
"Oh, oh, hard is our fortune in these virus times,
We're always controlled, we're always confined
Controlled by the police until we're inside
And slaves to the TV, avoiding to die…"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:59 AM

And John Mann, when he was a Labour MP, stage-managed his aggressive attack on Ken Livingstone. Despite being one of the most passionate anti-racists in the country, Ken was eventually driven out of the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:01 AM

Thanks again M
I've always assumed you're in France - do I have that wrong ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Monique
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:11 AM

No, you don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

It 's interesting to compare the kind of explicit hostility and mockery faced in the House of Commons by James Keir Hardie some one hundred and fifty years ago with contemporary conduct and behaviour. No doubt Sir Keir will be more "electable" than other leaders of the Labour Party, in the co-ordinated expressions of opinion from influential participants. After all, Labour politicians of the right background and behaviour can move smoothly from the party to other rather more rewarding positions, almost as if they were of the Tory Party but didn't acknowledge it.

Excellent points on the very obvious, and crude, drive to characterise criticism of a political policy pursued by some elements of a group as being equivalent to insulting that group in its entirety. Obvious, crude, useful - and allowed to be repeated incessantly no matter how often, and reasonably, the false equivalence is demonstrated and refuted. Interesting to observe the progress of things. Interesting times in which we are still for the moment living.   Exits ABCD.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM

Merci
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:07 AM

Good piece by Will Hutton

Boris Johnson is not a man to be trusted

Not that we didn't know that already!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:21 AM

But outside the opinion pieces of the Guardian in the real world:

Public support for Boris Johnson's coronavirus response soars

A YouGov/Sky News also poll found 72 per cent think Johnson has handled the crisis well, which is a 23 per cent increase from just a week ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

While simultaneously:


In a week that saw many questions over the handling of testing in the UK, there has been a significant fall in government approval of the handling of the Coronavirus crisis. In the space of a week, net approval almost halved from +42% to +23%.

Twitter feed from Opinium


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:18 AM

Citing 'public opinion' when it flies against the facts of the matter is populism at its most manipulative, as Brexit has proved
To claim that those working on the health front are lying or mistaken when they say this is not being handled well is downright insulting

THREE DAYS AGO
FOUR DAYS AGO

JOHNSON ADMITS ****- UP WHILE BUM KISSERS CONTINUE TO LIE

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:24 AM

UGove was set up by a bunch of right-wing Tories and is notorious for seeking only convenient answers
It's founder, Stephan Shakespear, originally owned the equally iffy "Conservativehome'
You may as well stick with criminal bloggers like Guido
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 11:54 AM

Boris Johnson's popularity - like that of the majority of world leaders - has risen significantly during the coronavirus crisis.

As tracked by Ipsos MORI, the prime minister's satisfaction ratings had improved to 52% by mid-March.

Polling by Number Cruncher more recently found that Johnson's satisfaction ratings had risen to 72%.

But Mr Johnson is by no means alone.

At a time of unprecedented global crisis, and with only one or two exceptions, leaders the world over are experiencing rising popularity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 12:20 PM

This becomes mindless
You may as well claim Trump's has, which is possibly true
Answer the criticisms of the poor bastards who are fighting on our behalf please otherwise you are putting the safety of the British people below that of a notoriously flawed leader and holding the medical workers who claim he isn't in contempt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

Sunday

***Starmer announces top team***

16.57: Anneliese Dodds appointed Shadow Chancellor
16.57: Lisa Nandy appointed Shadow Foreign Secretary
16.57: Nick Thomas-Symonds appointed Shadow Home Secretary
16.57: Rachel Reeves appointed Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
16.57: Jonathan Ashworth remains Shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care

******

16.57: Angela Smith remains Shadow Leader of the Lords
16.57: Nick Brown remains Labour’s Chief Whip

15.53: Jon Trickett sacked as Shadow Cabinet Office Minister
15.26: Ian Lavery sacked as Labour Party Chairman
15.23: Barry Gardiner sacked as Shadow International Trade Secretary

Saturday

    Diane Abbott and John McDonnell resign from their front bench positions, prior to Starmer’s election as leader

I see on Marr's program Starmer is already pitching to delay brexit. Luckily, with a stonking majority Boris, can ignore him.
We know he is a rejoiner! As for his front bech, I have never heard of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

Meanwhile the conservatives run true to form.

Rees-Mogg cashing in.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM

Iains - wot.. like..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qERZgLv3MKg


Showing snowflakes like boris and trump how to impose a proper populist macho lockdown...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:15 PM

Rachel bloody Reeve in the shadow cabinet. I might have to leave the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:18 PM

I never joined, I just vote for our wannabe MPs and hope they're up to the job
if they ever win...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 PM

BoJo has gone to hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 04:31 PM

BoJo has gone to hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:25 PM

Starmer was superb on Andrew Marr, such a pity that the all the lefty pefty labour party could offer before was useless wimpy Corbyn!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 05:48 PM

I strongly hinted earlier that boris shouldn't trust
any food, drink, or medicines sent up to him from gove...


btw.. wtf is a "pefty"...?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:20 PM

It rhymes with lefty, PFR. I can't think of anything to rhyme with greedy bankers...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 06:25 PM

righty shiteys...

actually.. when I googled "pefty" it was showing up randomly in a few archaic texts..

A Latin word maybe...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 20 - 08:18 PM

BBC NEWS

"Coronavirus: Boris Johnson admitted to hospital.."

.. must be the first thing he's ever admitted...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:09 AM

Pefty?   It seems to be a compliment.


Peft
Something extravagant in beauty. Very gorgeous and pleasing to the eye. Nothing could top the amazing sight of a peft.

Urban Dictionary


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:54 AM

This just rumbles on and will continue to until begin to discuss what they expect from a Labour Party
I expect them to offer a solution to the downward turn that our countries (( include Ireland) have taken
Here we have a fairer system than Britain here, even the losers get a say in the running of the country - theoretically
At the last election, Sinn Fein was obviously the people's choice and would now be running Ireland had they been able to afford enough candidates - they are quite likely to win the next election
The two major parties haven't yet devised a cunning pln to exclude them from the Government that is being formed, but they're working on it
Unlike Britain, there hasn't been a campaign of hate to keep them from taking their prize, just a few rumblings - we tend to have a less hysterical
press
Interesting days

I have reservations about S.F. (not the usual ones), but they offer welcome and needed change rather than rhetoric and personalities and they have representatives who seem to know what people want and need and care about it
I believe that if you scratch the surface of any people, especially those in the level of trouble we are, that's what all but the mindless few want (I refuse to believe there are enough of them to matter)

I'm exceedingly grateful to our extreme rightists here - their postings of support for Sir K - if I had any doubt about my summing up of him, they've put them fairly firmly to rest
"The also serve who only stand and prate"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:02 AM

By the sounds of some of the reporting, Johnson's condition could be very serious. I for one hope he recovers: I have said before I would rather have Boris than Raab any time.

But if the worst comes to it, such is the oddness of our political system that neither the person those who voted Tory voters voted for (Boris) or against (Corbyn) would be in place, yet we have the best part of five years before the next election. Moreover in the leadership election, Raab was eliminated in the second ballot, before, say, Rory Stewart. So we don't even seem to have the person in charge the Tory MPs favoured (Agreed, we have a very different set of MPs now to those who voted at the time.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM

Starmer may be the best thing since sliced bread for the Labour party, but he has no chance of grabbing power for the foreseable future. Corbyn damaged the party fatally by empowering the hard left and driving away support from the heartlands. Do yuou seriously think they will risk being betrayed a second time,especially with a champagne socialist at the helm.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:25 AM

"champagne socialist "
It's always fascinated me how the better off and those with their heads up their masters' arses use this somewhat insipid drink as an insult while being prepared to drink and spend as much money as they do on it themselves
If champagne is as good a drink as they seem to think - why use it as an insult ?
Then again - joined-up thinking doesn't come to easy to the right, does it ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:32 AM

There are rumours circulating that Boris is on a ventilator. I hope this is untrue. Covid19 survival rates for those on ventilators are not good.

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/mortality-rate-of-covid-19-patients-on-ventilators/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:35 AM

Then again - joined-up thinking doesn't come to easy to the right, does it ?

But we won the election and that is all that counts. Sour grapes does not hack it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:59 AM

"But we won the election and that is all that counts."
So did Hitler and look what happened to the Jews
" I hope this is untrue. "
Me too - there's a shortage thanks to his Government and I's rather they were given to those more deserving
I do hope for his sake that he gets medical attention from someone not vindictive enough to treat him the way he has treated them though
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:22 AM

Politicking aside, all good wishes to Boris Johnson and everyone else who is suffering from the disease for a speedy recovery.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:22 AM

Good wishes and a speedy recovery to all (admirable sentiments shared by us all)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

'Good wishes and a speedy recovery to all' is a great one-liner: others are not so good. A one-liner used to score meaningless points in the poster's own internal competition serves no useful purpose but to inflame, flame-bait or behave in a trolling manner.
Please desist. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:02 AM

Who was that aimed at? I don't understand the last two posts. One purports to quote me but changes all my wording (I didn't mind), then a fierce enjoinder from out of nowhere...?

I was agreeing with your post, Steve but aiming the other comment ( in general) at some one-line posts that were obviously flame-baiting.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:13 AM

I merely agreed with the sentiments expressed by Mr Shaw. The subject matter should be non political


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:14 AM

Yes Steve, that’s the problem when people ignore the forum advice and insist on engaging with trolls - they give cover to the trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:29 AM

"Good wishes and a speedy recovery to all"
I can't but agree with thet, it would be inhuman to do otherwise, but recalling the dismissal of concerns for health workers with inadequate protection as "leftie negativity" by those falling over themselves to send get well soon cards to Prime ministers, it rings somewhat hollow
Johnson will undoubtedly be given the best treatment available by well-protected medical staff while the rest will just have to cross their fingers
Not too long ago Johnson made public that he was refusing to be tested after hobnobbing with victims of the virus
Given the behaviour of Boris's barmy army towards the hoi-poloi over this period I very much doubt if the phrase "serves them right" wouldn't have put in an appearance on more than one occasion were it the lower orders who had behaved in this dangerously selfish manner
I recall being lectured by one of them about my duty to isolate and not to worry too much about getting enough food in few days ago
Nothing about forcing Boris to get tested before he becomes a Typhoid Mary
I find some of the inhumanity on display almost as distasteful as the double standards - but that's politics for you
How about us moving on ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:34 AM

"they give cover to the trolls."
Agree with this to a point but I think were's
re all on edge at present and the drip-drip-drip of their venom becomes a little untakeable at times
I'd rather show them up fo the twots they are on occasion
Finished now - were's me white horse - Yi - ho - Silverrrr
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

when we are being asked to stay away from public spaces and hospitals in particular it would seem a bit reckless to go to the hospital just 'for tests' and unless the prime minister's condition is more serious than that


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM

An extremely good article here from Rafael Behr in The Guardian, drawing attention to the pointlessness of Brexit in the face of the Coronavirus crisis.

It’s especially significant, considering that our leaders have grabbed EU funding for fourteen repatriation flights for U.K. citizens (reported in the FT but, as it’s paywalled, I’m unable to provide a link that’s of any value). That’s despite the fact that, as our resident Europhobes gleefully celebrated on this forum, we ‘Got Brexit Done’ at the end of January.

“Take are cuntry back”? Only when it suits, apparently.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:09 AM

It’s especially significant, considering that our leaders have grabbed EU funding for fourteen repatriation flights for U.K. citizens (reported in the FT but, as it’s paywalled, I’m unable to provide a link that’s of any value). That’s despite the fact that, as our resident Europhobes gleefully celebrated on this forum, we ‘Got Brexit Done’ at the end of January.

“Take are cuntry back”? Only when it suits, apparently.


WE still make payments to the EU until the end of the year.Therefore it is only right we make use of facilities we pay for.....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:11 AM

What do you mean, John? I didn't engage with anyone. I expressed a very simple sentiment which set politics aside for a sec, then out of the blue a big bollocking post from a mod appeared. Doubleyou tee eff?

See above. I was agreeing with your post whilst trying to point out the uselessness of some one liners. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:52 AM

It wasn’t aimed specifically at you Steve. It was a general comment on the pointlessness of engaging with a troll whose only purpose is to stoke the flames. Those whom the cap fits should wear it. Otherwise...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:52 AM

"it would seem a bit reckless to go to the hospital just 'for tests' and unless the prime minister's condition is more serious than that"
In this case he had been mixing freely with people who already had it and obviosly not sticking to the rules he was laying down for everybody else
In the case of a prominent public figure he needs to set an example, if not practice what he preaches

As far as Brexit is concerned, I sincerely hope the kicking the economy is already taking forces Britain to rethink this leaving home like a sulky teenager rather than being forced to go cap in hand to the Predatory Prat of Pennsylvania Avenue
Jim arroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 07:16 AM

I sincerely hope the kicking the economy is already taking forces Britain to rethink this leaving home like a sulky teenager

But we have already legally left at the end of January, so our options are limited. We can, however, still choose whether to leave like a sulky teenager or to leave like a mature adult. For all his faults Boris is a pragmatist and I think would try to find a reasonable working arrangement. Raab is a true believer who will not be swayed whatever evidence might arise that leaving at the start of say Jan 2022 rather than Jan 2021 would be beneficial to the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:35 AM

Or we can stay where we are safest, at least for the rime being rather than put Britain's fate in the hands of an obvious mental deficient
I'm sure Europe would make an exception for such a lapse of concentration
If you think getting this far was hard - you ain't seen nuffin' yet

Johnson's carers have denied that he is on a ventilator and it is now claimed that the story has been spread by Russian hackers - that's what 'freeing Russia fro tyranny" does for you eh !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 10:24 AM

What is the coyness about whether Johnson has or has not had oxygen? I know there is a huge reluctance to say any politician may be frail for a while, but I doubt if it can be hidden long term either way, so why not just admit it or deny it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:12 AM

Ir seems that New Russia is out to cause mischief by spreading misinformation
I can't see much reason for the hospital spokesman lying - a prime Minister on a ventilator is good publicity for a Government which appears fairly short of anything else going for it
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:33 AM

My hunches are either gove got at boris
in some dastardly Agatha Cristie villain like way;
or boris got bored confined up in his pigeon loft
and did something really stupid and hazardous to himself...???

Oranges and binbags comes to mind as a particular tory solitary peccadillo...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:16 PM

"My hunches"
Or maybe he's faking it for a sympathy shag - we've all tried it :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM

Hopefully, somewhat clumsy Boris Johnson has not passed Covid_19 to anyone but, it seems to me, far less likely if he had worn a mask - as I've been suggesting for weeks, having observed those in nations containing this virus relatively well doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM

Walky - boris is always wearing a mask...


Jim - beware of boris's hospital bed if the curtains are drawn all around it...

"Carry on Nurse" and it's raunchier later 1960s sequel remade for the corona crisis...

"ooooh mr Johnson, you are a one.. giggle.. squeal.. it's more than your temperature that's rising...!!!"

cue comical swanee slide whistle musical sting...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:21 PM

At 7pm Boris moved into intensive care.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:24 PM

Your prez is in intensive care.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:32 PM

We don’t have a Prez.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:41 PM

We don't have intensive care


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:42 PM

At this point I must restrain my dark sense of humour...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:45 PM

ed miliband back on the front bench......boris johnson in intensive care. coincidence......?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:03 PM

This is terrible news. Sod the politics. I hate you, Boris, but just get well please. PLEASE!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:14 PM

I too add my wishes that Boris Johnson makes a full and complete recovery from this virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:23 PM

i would be more than happy if i never saw boris johnson again but would not wish ill health or worse on anyone. he is one of many people having a terrible time and lets hope for better news for everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:16 PM

I would, exclusively for Donald Trump. Donald is deliberately evil while Boris is a natural goofball and deserves compassion.
Wishes don't work anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:18 PM

No one, I hope, would wish this on anyone at all. Johnson is under the management to one of the most experienced ICU in the country, so his chances are a high as we can make them.   We can but hope it goes well, though it may take a good few days before we know.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:24 PM

My wife was in the ICU at ST Georges Tooting 4 years ago after brain surgery - they do know what they are doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:57 PM

Dominic Raab was clearly distressed this evening and, I thought, he showed his real unspun self. A rare sight in UK politics. I've got my very vulnerable mum to worry about and I personally knew a bloke who's just died. When push comes to shove we're all human beings and we're all vulnerable. Bad times. :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 03:27 AM

Of course people are right about not wishing ill on people, but unfortunate there are so many people we have to worry about at present that we all mentally categories them
We made friends among the Traveller families who have remain living in the appalling conditions they were forced to in normal times - I wonder all the time how they are getting on
A close friend in London was a Kurdish refugee living in an over-occupied tower block in North West London - I worry how Ali's family is getting on all the time
Some of my family live in areas poorly served by hospitals at the best of times and cannot afford private attention
That list is endless
Many of the people on it live as they do because of the system either forced or inveigled on us by people like Johnson so, with the best will in the world, while I don't wish anybody ill, he comes pretty low on my 'Get well soon card' list and I have no intention shedding crocodile tears for his recovery - he'll have to wait in the queue like everybody else has to
I'd be fascinated to see how the "let them sleep in the park" crowd would have reacted if it had been Corbyn or the one they keep comparing with a hippo had fallen ill - but that's probably my evil sense of humour
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

The Financial Times, 30 March 2020

        Civil service reform has been a key objective of the Johnson government — particularly for the prime minister’s chief adviser Dominic Cummings, who believes Whitehall is responsible for many policy failures

Micheal Gove, 7 April 2020:

The work of government goes on, we have a superb civil service and they have ensured that the machinery is there for decisions to be made by ministers, by medical and scientific experts, and for those decisions to be followed through in a way which enables us to help those on frontline.

===

A week is a long time in politics, exhibit 1.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM

Seems to me if someone does not have a good word to say about Boris it would be better they said nothing at all. It really shows up what sort of person they really are.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:35 AM

i do not like johnson however i hope he does not die


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

seems to me that if if anyone has a bad word to say about anyone and wishes to do it repeatedly, offensively and with no care, self-awarenessunderstanding or even the suggestion of any basic sympathy (or humour) at least they will be allowed to do so on mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

"Seems to me if someone does not have a good word to say about Boris it would be better they said nothing at all"
A pretty obvious way of dodging responsibility for your own behaviour Iains
Who's to blame you ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:41 AM

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

From Animal Farm by George Orwell.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 08:01 AM

I'm pretty sure you have quoted that before, Rain Dog. What's your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 12:02 PM

A very moving personal view from someone on Facebook

Boris Johnson.

A man who has lived his entire life recklessly, selfishly, irresponsibly; without any regard for the consequences. Because he's never needed to. His enormous privilege has protected him from any repercussions.

He is a proven pathological liar, swaggering through the years with no empathy or concern for anyone but himself. Indeed, recently bragging about shaking hands with Corona virus patients. As if it was just another laugh; a jape; just another moment in a life less honourable.

There is a grim irony to him finally, in this manner, being confronted by the consequences of his behaviour. Even he can't lie & bluster his way out of this mess.

One can only hope that the Prime Minister, as he languishes in intensive care, courtesy of the NHS that he and his party have done so much to destroy, deeply regrets the cheering & jeering doled out to nurses by he and his colleagues; when they voted down a payrise for those heroes. If he's lucky he'll now be finding out exactly how valuable these people are.

My brother, sadly, wasn't lucky.
Jas, 54, died of Covid-19 in Nottingham's Queens Medical Centre a week last Saturday night. Unlike the Prime Minister there was no ventilator for Jas.
'Operation: Last Gasp', right, Prime Minister?

I then stood on an empty street, shouting to be heard over the wind, no privacy, no dignity, to tell an old man on a doorstep his child had died. The most indescribably awful duty I've ever had to carry out.

There will, of course, be those idiots, those hypocrites, those bootlickers, who will condemn me for 'politicising' both my own loss & Boris Johnson's condition. They can't grasp that politicians making political decisions and political choices impact people's lives. And sometimes end them. As Jas found out.

Do I wish Johnson dead? No. Do I wish dead the selfish, the greedy and the stupid who voted for him and still, even now, support him? Those who were perfectly happy to ignore the systematic destruction of the NHS while they were all right Jack? Again, no.

My sympathy, however, remains with the terrified & heartbroken victims of this crisis. The appalling & callous mishandling of which is unavoidably the responsibility of Boris Johnson.

It would be nice to think that lessons will be learned; that, individually and collectively, we will discover our self-respect and understand that governments only ever treat us the way we allow; that, when this is over, an enormous reorganisation of the nation’s priorities will be undertaken, by both the politicians and the electorate; that, at last, people will concern themselves with the value of others and much less with the cost of things.

If Boris Johnson, in any way, might be that catalyst then he will have done at least one noble thing in his life.

My breath, however, remains unheld.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

That is a superb characterisation of his character and his disreputable public life. But I still fully want him to get well. I feel deprived of the right to hate his bloody guts. But that isn't why I want him to get better.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 03:30 PM

Far better people die everyday,
and won't ever get honoured with grand memorial plaques and statues...

I have two simple categories of folks I don't like..

a] those seriously evil bastards who need to be killed..

b] those folks I'd never wish death upon, but am indifferent if we do lose them...


Boris does not fit neatly into either category...

I'll include him in

c] guilty pleasures..
right-wing comedians I'm not supposed to find amusing, but sometimes do,
and might miss a bit when they do eventually shuffle off...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Apr 20 - 09:06 PM

Dave The Gnome:
I won't replay the whole of your post, as it was just a copy of what someone else said on Facebook. So not necessarily reliable. Do you know the meaning of the word 'Hearsay'?
However, just to cover one paragraph:
My brother, sadly, wasn't lucky.
Jas, 54, died of Covid-19 in Nottingham's Queens Medical Centre a week last Saturday night. Unlike the Prime Minister there was no ventilator for Jas.


Unless the news has moved on, it was confirmed that Boris hadn't had a ventilator either. But whoever wrote it on Facebook shouldn't let the facts interrupt a good rant.

Am I belittling the death of this unknown person's brother? NO!.
I am pointing out that unattributed rants add nothing to the conversation. They may still get repeated ad nauseum without anyone confirming whether or not they include any truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Apr 20 - 09:56 PM

There was a German govt in the early to mid 1940s
which relied on loyal pedantic jobsworth book-keepers...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 02:52 AM

"So not necessarily reliable."
By that reckoning, nor is anything here of course - just an opinion of a bunch of proles
You have a habit of dodging awkward points in this manner Nigel
Good job the great and the good have the media to get over the information they need us to have eh ?
RThey don't even have to listen to those on the virus-front when they constantly whine about not having enough protective equipment - as for those constantly banging on about losing relatives....
Most of what Dave put up is not only valid, it's self evident
Britain has been far behind Ireland from the beginning, our - China has reached a "no deaths today" situation
Somebody is doing things right and others aren't - bemoanit the fate of our suffering Prime Minister while at the same time covering up his cock-ups isn't exactly going to perfom Britain's performance
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 02:53 AM

"improve Britain's performance" (memo to self - don't post till ou wake up)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 02:56 AM

Meawhile    we   have left the EU and   the countdown continues until   the end of December, unless of course   we   all   get   fed up with the   disfunctional EU   and simply leave. The behaviour of the    EU over   covid-19 indicates   the union is a basket case. If    it    cannot   deal with a   virus,   what   hope for the   coming   depression? Is southern europe   to be abandonned again?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:20 AM

I do find it a bit odd that some Brexit supporters are saying the EU is failing because it is not federal enough. In the past many of them were saying that the problem with the EU is that it had ambitions to become federal, a super-state, a United States of Europe. That recognises that at the moment it is not there yet. However, they are saying that the EU is failing because it cannot override the wishes of the individual countries that it is composed of. That is, its failure is that it is not the thing they did not want it to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:33 AM

The EU has the clearly stated ambbition of achieving federalisation. One of the many reasons for leaving and regaining sovereignty. Many here denied that, Glad   to see reality has finally penetrated for some. If   the desire is to centralise then come the crisis leadership is expected. Abject failure is all I see, even to the extent of hijacking each others safety gear. We are lucky we have left, the subsequent bills will be horrendous


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:59 AM

Europe is made up of separate and totally independent states - talking about "Europe having an ambition" is bizarre to say the least - a creature with a single aim
Utter nonsense
There has been no move to federate - it may well be the wish of some, but until the members discuss and propose the idea, that's all it will ever be
This is one of the big lies that brought about this insane leap in the dark
On the other hand, if Britain wishes to trade with countries like America (in particular) they will only be allowed to do so if they are able to stay in Trump the Dump's good books - anybody wish to dispute that !!!
That all free nations should ne so "independent'
"Birthright and mess of pottage" springs to mind
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:10 AM

So, Nigel, you're seriously suggesting that I shouldn't bet my life that a ventilator was/is instantly available for Boris should the need arise...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:31 AM

Nigel. Which part of "A very moving personal view" did you have problems with? It was my opening statement. Nowhere do I say it is anything other than that. It does add to the discussion as it reflects the depth of feeling people have.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:37 AM

MPs given an extra £10,000 to work from home

I am gobsmacked but no longer surprised at the contempt that this lot treat others with.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:56 AM

a friend of ours died a couple of weeks ago. apparently they were not able to put him on a ventilator as if they had he would not have been able to come off it. it's not the best thing for everyone apparently and he died very quickly, despite being a very fit and lively man (though he was 81)

seems to me there are 2 narratives going on at the moment - while the overwhelming majority of folk are saying that we must use this shock to make fundamental changes to the way we do things (particularly with respect to public services) However, there is still a refusal to accept this idea with our government who are cracking on with HS2, bonus and shareholders payouts, Brexit - and pay rises for MPs - as if they are assuming they can just carry on after a few weeks while maintaining the systems and privileges they and their friends currently enjoy.

it won't be long before the battle resumes between tories and the forelock-tuggers and mor