BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:33 PM

Bonz - who does..???

I don't...

But it does depend on the specific medical advisers 'our govt' select to listen to..

We'll have to trust they are brilliant well qualified independent advisers,
and not carefully chosen to agree with partisan tory agenda...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

Iains - sorry.. I don't have time / can't be arsed to click all your selective links...

Besides, I've already made my views clear in the past months,
that I'm not too impressed with the current bunch of hopefuls
competing for Labour Leadership...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM

Pat and I had not long finished discussing what we were going to do if 'cocooning' became compulsory fo people like us,

Compulsory or advisory. Does it make any difference when it is for your own benefit?

Gov i.e. states:If you are over 70 years of age or have a condition which makes you extremely medically vulnerable you are strongly advised to cocoon, to reduce the chance of getting COVID-19 and follow the face-to-face distancing measures below........... published 27/3/20

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Though, I should qualify that with..

"Not too impressed so far..."

The future is no where near as clear cut as it was mere weeks ago,
when boris/dom celebrated victory...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:01 PM

Effective testing and tracing would make distancing far better as when the authorities know who is affected and where they can concentrate their efforts in the right areas. In countries where testing is extensive the spread is better contained than in countries that are not testing as well as they could. Partisan support of the government of the day, whethet they are right or wrong, is simply foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:14 PM

To break a resolution for a minute so people who seem not to be are aware of the position of very many rural dwellers in Ireland, and I presume in Britain
Many live on their own, have no family or close friends and are quite often reluctant to bother neighbours who, they believe have enough to cope with as it is
We live a mile outside town and on a fairly busy road which has been spookily quiet for some time now
Many are not as lucky as us and live in remote scattered farmhouses up fairly inaccessible roads
The local shops are simply not equipped to do home deliveries and social services are unable to cope at the best of times
I lived in Britain's capital for thirty years and read regularly of solitary people dying at home and nor being found for days - weeks - months in some cases
I even read about fire survivors who narrowly escaped death in a horrific inferno being refused the use of vacant property because that would have gone against the 'Private Property' ethos that dominates Britain - I'm sure you must have heard about this yourself :-)
The PLanet Zog that some people appear to inhabit may have this sort of thing in hand - not here, I'm afraid
If there's something us oldies have had to come to terms with is that despite having devoted our lives and taxes to our country, our best chances of staying alive are to rely on each other and not those who we put in power to look after our well being - they are far, far too busy looking after themselves to bother about us crumblies
Over and out - I'll go to confession tonight to ask forgiveness for my breaking my 'British Summertime' resolution !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:16 PM

i owe my friend steve a pint (steve d not steve s) promised for the day the pubs reopen if we -and the pubs- make it through. other than can we cancel all debts please? from student loans, to hospital trusts pfi scams, benefit loans, mortgages, car loans, bank loans etc. that's the way to boost an economy. free rent for pubs and other socially important enterprises. what's the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:24 PM

"Testing and tracing only serves to identify the problem.
Lockdown and 'Social Distancing' are measures that can actually be effective.
So to say that tracing and testing are an effective way to "battle the virus" is totally wrong, even if it does come from a self-proclaimed 'scientist'."

Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't be responding to an ill-thought out post containing a gratuitous personal insult (parroting the self-same insult cheerfully employed by you-know-who...) However. We have yet to see solid evidence that a "lockdown" (that still permits crowded buses, tube trains and workplaces) can be effective. Testing, contact tracing (and subsequent action with regard to those tested positive, it should go without saying, but who knows with you, Nigel?) have been shown to be effective in China, Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea. At least one of those places hasn't even needed a lockdown. Spain and Italy both have severe lockdowns, but you'd have to try very hard to persuade a lot of people that they've somehow done much good. It stands to reason that knowing who is infected, who isn't, and preferably also who has recovered, gives a country a good head start in controlling the outbreak. And I'll unscientifically predict that the mass testing in Germany will shortly be seen to have paid dividends.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

"from student loans, to hospital trusts pfi scams, benefit loans, mortgages, car loans, bank loans etc. that's the way to boost an economy. free rent for pubs and other socially important enterprises"
I think that has to be a must if countries are going to survive, never mind families
It was interesting to learn this morning that all evictions of Travellers have ceased ans temporary bans on rent rises are now being considered - it will be interesting to see how the latter will be received in Ireland's Vulture Capitalism dominated property industry - damn - I'd forgotten our local betting shop is for the durtion
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:56 PM

Survivalist preppers may have been a bit of a joke..

But from now on, it's time Governments [left or right..]
learn the fundamental basics from them...


Btw.. How sick a joke would it be,
if there are still disused cold war bunkers in Britain,
locked up and forgotten, fully stocked with essential medical survival kits and respirators,
buried in dust & mould, and rotting away...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Jim you first point I have to agree with you. It goes deeper than you state. Rural isolation and loneliness impact suicide figures and closing the marts and other places where farmers may congregate compounds the problem for them, as did the tightening of drink drive laws. Obviously complying with the government edict is going to be a non starter for some.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/healthandlife/all-the-lonely-people-epidemic-of-loneliness-is-leading-to-ch


https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/farmers-among-those-most-likely-to-die-by-suicide-36723840.html

Perhaps the man mentioned last week with ref to Gougan Barra should be listened to. (Jan 1, 2020 - Michael Healy-Rae: Upsurge in feckers Drug driving is evidence that Government should relax the Irish Drink Driving laws.)    A rather novel take on the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM

"i owe my friend steve a pint (steve d not steve s)"

I hear that steve d has gorn teetotal. Can I have it instead? :-)

steve s

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

bloody spivs, always trying to capitalise on other folk's misfortune

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM

I blame Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:44 PM

Thatcher would have privatised pandemics...

If only she'd done that..

By now they'd be as hard to catch as a local bus...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:38 PM

"if there are still disused cold war bunkers in Britain",
Before I was self employed when I worked for a firm that occasionally did Government work I was told about RSGs (Regional Seats of Government)
These were large secret bunkers intended to house 'Important People' in the case of nuclear Attack
I knew they had existed during wartime and shortly after, but my informant assured me they were still in existence, still fully maintained and kept stocked in case of an emergency
Does anybody have the time - my doomsday clock has stopped !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:17 PM

I should have explained that when I was told this I was working in a Pub near the Houses of Parliament and the RSG was said to be for the Parliamentarians
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:24 AM

A pretty damning analysis by Rupert Reid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:41 AM

Wow - terrifying when it's delivered with authority by an expert in one calm, articulate statement
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:11 AM

Jim, they   do/did exist. The regional control center in North Cheam was demolished in the 70's and a block of flats built on the site. My grandfather was told to get lost when he asked why the excavation was so deep during construction in the early 50s(He had been an engineer for the London Metropoltan Waterboard)
As bombs became larger excavations in clay offered little protection. Most if not all bunkers were inadaquate,including the deepbunkers on the northern line dating from ww2 and including Eisenhower's bunker at Googe street(or so the story goes)


https://www.subbrit.org.uk/sites/cheam-south-west-london-group-control/

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:15 AM

Hope yuo don't mind Dave - I've taken the liberty of passing on your link to a couple of other threads in case some people have become tired of listening to ous whining Brits !
It's important enough not to miss
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:54 AM

I don't mind at all, Jim. It's not my link, I just brought it to your attention! The more that people hear what Dr Reid has to say, the better :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 05:02 AM

A live feed reports encouraging news from Ireland. It is important not to be chicken-counting, but with luck this will continue.

Let us also hope the UK can report similar things soon.

======
Encouraging news from Ireland: the daily growth rate in confirmed cases of coronavirus has halved and the country appears to have avoided an unmitigated epidemic.

Restrictions on social and commercial life and other measures have had an “enormous” impact, Philip Nolan, the Chair of The Irish Epidemiological Modelling Group, told a media briefing.

“The measures that the state has imposed and that the public have really complied with very, very strongly are having an enormous effect on the number of actual cases that we’re seeing today.”

However Nolan warned against complacency and said Covid-19’s growth rate would have to fall to “close to zero” for it to be suppressed.

The chief medical officer, Tony Holohan, agreed Ireland was seeing “encouraging signs” in the effort to flatten the curve but said the number of cases and admissions to intensive care units continued to rise, putting hospitals at risk of being swamped. Officials are especially concerned about clusters in nursing homes and hospitals.

Ireland on Monday confirmed 295 new cases, the second highest daily number, bringing the total to 2,910. It recorded eight deaths, bringing the death toll to 54. Northern Ireland has 533 confirmed cases and 22 deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:16 AM

Steve Shaw:
Your latest response shows that you finally understand the problem with your earlier post: the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts.
Testing and tracing are not, alone, going to effect the virus or its spread. Action needs to be taken on the results. This is not quantum mechanics where (according to Heisenberg) the testing itself has an effect on the subject matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:18 AM

If you look at a graph of the daily rate of infections in Ireland and the UK they both show similar behaviour in levelling out. But it is too early to be a convincing trend. London may well trend differently simply because of the density of population. The numbers infected in Britain has been dropping for the last three days, as have Ireland. Hopefully the trend will hold and continue to diminish on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:33 AM

As I said, Nigel, that goes without saying, except to you, to whom it needed saying. That's Nigel through and through, innit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:42 AM

Half my last post vanished for some inexplicable reason. So below is the necessary link

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Scroll down to the table, double click the country and thegraphs open up.

Some seem to overlook the fact that the exercise is not to eradicate the virus but control the rate of spread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:54 AM

From today's Labour List:

"It transpired yesterday that ministers had claimed we had reached the government target of 10,000 tests a day – as Matt Hancock tweeted, and Michael Gove told the Sunday shows – but that was not accurate. They are now saying this referred to testing capacity, which went up to 10,949, whereas tests actually carried out was just over 9,000 and the number of individuals tested was 7,000. However, we now know that the level of daily testing then fell to fewer than 5,000 people in the 24 hours before 9am on Saturday. Only 900 frontline staff were tested over the weekend in a ‘trial run’, according to Downing Street.

The simple fact is that the UK, as articulated by Professor Antony Costello and others, has been too slow. The government has failed to contact UK clothes makers who are willing and able to produce PPE. While wasting time is a key ongoing failure, there is also a serious lack of transparency. There is no real clarity about why the testing capacity isn’t being used, as Labour’s Jon Ashworth has highlighted. NHS doctors have also told The Independent that they have been gagged from speaking out about shortages, with their social media posts being monitored and careers threatened.

The handling of coronavirus has been described as a “national scandal” by prestigious medical journal The Lancet, by trade unions, by NHS staff. And yet there is apparently overwhelming public approval of the government response to the crisis. Boris Johnson's satisfaction ratings have increased to 72%, recent polling found. Some like to hold up such numbers to imply that criticism should therefore be toned down – especially from Labour representatives, who could be accused of point-scoring at a time of national crisis*. But as all of the above shows, there are urgent failings that must be brought to attention."

*Of which I myself have been accused here. In a democracy, valid criticism of the government is suppressed at our peril, and those who would suppress it veer towards totalitarianism.

Lies, damned lies, twisted statistics, fake news...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 07:46 AM

The 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals, which were built in *one week* is an incredible achievement and everyone involved should be very proud.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM

"The 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals,"
The head of this hospital has just announced on television that protection for the medical staff is woefully inadequate, putting their lives and well being at risk every time they go into work- this appeal is now several weeks old
Yas Bozo - irt is aan incredible achievement - what a crying shame the Government are giving the medical staff the support they vitally need to do their work

There seem two messages coming out here - both in my opinion, equally valid
The official version is "We;re doing fine and are on top of the problem" - essential to prevent widespread panic
From those actually faced with tackling the virus face-on there have been demands for adequate equipment being made for weeks now
Until this particular circle is squared all the good-news propaganda will be meaningless
Get a grip you lot - it's your party - stop covering up for the tardiness of these 'Clowns in Clover' - it's you and me at risk - they'll be whisked into intensive care if they sneeze over the pepper
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM

Creating the 'Nightingale' hospitals is indeed an important step, and I do not downplay its significance.

But creating the building is the easiest and the least important part of the whole thing in many ways. The doctors, nurses, medical supplies and so on are nothing like so easy to get as converting a building. Yes, I know lots are coming out of retirement. But we are also losing a lot at the moment through necessary isolation.

The NHS staff have worked incredibly hard to get where we are, but sustaining that intensity over perhaps six months rather than two weeks is going to be a huge ask.

The buildings are one vital part of the jigsaw. But only one part.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM

nevertheless, putting party political drivel aside, the 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals, which were built in *one week* is an incredible achievement and everyone involved should be very proud.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:56 AM

it's you and me at risk
I suggest you take up your crtiticism with the country you are resident in!
Last time I looked at a map County Clare was not a part of the UK.

You are not very consistant are you? One moment you say Ireland is leading the way, then you say you are at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM

"nevertheless, putting party political drivel aside"
Nothing Party political about it Bozo, any more than 'nationalist' as your friend would have it
We are all at risk - those living under a Government that does its job properly are less at risk and wherever we live, if you silence Brits you are covering up the blunders of your own administration, which directly affects members of my family
Stop wagging flags and face facts otherwise you become part of the problem
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:34 AM

Wag wag wag wag wag wag!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:35 AM

everyone involved should be very proud

All the builders, manufacturers, designers, labourers and so on, I quite agree. They have worked hard and done all that could have been expected of them. Praiseworthy indeed.

But if the nurses and doctors are simply taken from elsewhere in the system, they have built a PR exercise more than a hospital, since that does not in itself increase the total care available. And that would not something to be proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM

Iains - we already refuted your petty false argument about Jim's right to comment on Britain..
If you can't remember that from a mere day or two ago...???

..personally I'd be worried, if I had such serious short term memory loss...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:41 AM

Are those Nightingales primarily intended as mass end of life hospice wards...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM

I see the visas have been extended for the NHS workers from overseas for a year. That is a very sensible move (See, I can praise the government when it does the right thing, even when it is Priti Patel!)

A significant proportion of our nurses come from the Philippines. The last thing we want is to lose them because of visas expiring.

I find it surprising that - as yet - the government of the Philippines has not offered substantial packages to those nurses to return home and look after their own country, friends and family. If they do, and they make it tempting enough, that could be another huge problem to solve.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:44 AM

If Jim wishes to play thevictim card it is not unreasonable to expect that he does not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:06 AM

Obviously pretty much a waste of time trying to communicate with these two using words of more that two syllables P - Shirley Valentine got a more intelligent response from her kitchen wall
"because of visas expiring."
Nah that'll wait til the crisis is over and (if) Brexit kicks in; then they can send all the applications to Croydon for shredding
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:28 AM

But if the nurses and doctors are simply taken from elsewhere in the system, they have built a PR exercise more than a hospital, since that does not in itself increase the total care available. And that would not something to be proud of.

It may not provide more carers, but it does have a definite benefit in that staff (doctors/nurses/cleaners etc) are not mixing with two sets of patients, those with Covid19 and those in hospital for other reasons, possibly with weakened immune systems. This avoidance of cross-contamination is very important and shouldn't be belittled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:38 AM

it seems a while ago that we were discussing whether we were able to offer criticism of our own preferred political parties. us 'left' folk did offer a few examples but are still waiting for the supporters and apologists for johnson and his party to offer similar more balanced criticisms of their own 'side' --

anyone recall the good old days when we repeatedly asked for examples of the benefits of brexit?

As trump (or the tories in england) is victorious, great and never wrong - are you going to the church to give praise at easter?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:48 AM

https://twitter.com/eyespymp/status/1244970232432726019?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1244970232432726019

1) Ignore cocconing for over 70s. Check
2) Ignore social distancing .    Check
3) Ignore instruction to stop unnecessary journeys. Check

That is Jeremy Corbyn for you!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:58 AM

Well, lets see.

Corbyn is seated which would seem to suggest that he has not moved to be within 2 metres of the other chap but that the chap standing has moved to within 2 metres of Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM

what a surreal conversation .....

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:08 AM

It seems that moving carers about like chess pieces is preferable to providing protection for them all
It's getting to be like an episode of 'The Prisoner'

Even the BBC , 13 weeks ago, was aware of what the Government are still dragging their feet on now
AND IF YOU'RE IN NEED OF HELP ALREADY !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:29 AM

Some of us are closer to The Prisoner than others.


I could not be bothered to change into the full get-up at the moment, though I wore it all on my last day at work. "I am not a number, I am a free man!"

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:33 AM

The leader of Her Majesties Opposition is supposed to set an example!
A piss-poor one is not quite what most people had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:52 AM

Iains - you seem to be floundering a bit today..
Resorting to your lower standard tactics trying to provoke a response..

Hasn't it been made clear enough that now is not a time for block headed
divisive party politicking..

.. and yes, criticising the inadequacies of the ruling govt of the the day
is a legitimate requirement in a democracy..

I'd be having a go at Labour ministers if they were in power,
and failing to cope effectively with a pandemic...