BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM

It's not often that the entire human race is in the same boat - except of course North Diarrehea!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:13 PM

For Christ's sake PFK
These are the twats who refused to comment on the fact that a bunch of Tory ministers and advisers were photographed bunched together on a flight of stairs in the full knowledge that two of them, The Prime Minister and Health Secretary had already contracted the virus
SOME ******* "GOOD EXAMPLE EH ???
Floundering more than a little, I'd say
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:32 PM

SELF-DISTANCING, DOWNING STREET STYLE
There you go - an example to us all
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:35 PM

I'd be having a go at Labour ministers if they were in power,
and failing to cope effectively with a pandemic...

Well positive news. Time to congratulate the government for a sterling effort!

Michael Gove

Of the NHS's ventilator capacity he added: "Orders have been placed and I can announce that this weekend the first thousand ventilator machines will roll off the production line.

"They will be delivered to the NHS next week."
This is a time for absolute clarity and accuracy, not carping and nit picking. Matthew 7:5

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Jim:
There's no need to continue posting links to that picture of ministers on the Downing Street stairs.
As it says below the picture: 'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video
That Guardian link is from 27 March, so 'weeks before' must take it back at least until 13 March, which was before any UK guidance on self-isolation, or on 'social distancing'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:52 PM

I don't like gove.. I certainly distrust gove..
.. and if I were a tory, i wouldn't turn my back to gove.
unless I was wearing a stab proof vest..


But if he is the bearer of genuinely positive news.. Thanks..

AS long as he don't make too much of a personal PR opportunity out of it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM

Nigel - boris is cooped up in a converted pigeon loft above number 11
with a confirmed positive test..

Thats's NOW, not weeks ago..
that must say something about the poor judgement of such a clot...

Even trump seems to have been more proactively/preemptively protected from himself
by his closest handlers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:10 PM

" 'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video"
It doesn't say that his shaking hands relates to the photograph, which was taken outside the meeting covered by the article
The same photograph was used in various newspapers, making the same point - some clown at Westminster spread the bug
Lets face it - if a man moving towards a seated opposition leader is comment-worthy what the hell is this ?
The fact that Johnson wasn't being tested after a Minister contacted the virus answers that one - as you have yet to
None of your lot seem to be too bovvered about the treatment of health workers on the front line either
Makes you proud to be a Brit eh?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM

My favourite conspiracy theory [which I might have made up..]

is boris actually never tested positive at all, and has been clear of the virus all along..

But gove told him the test came back positive,
as he urgently ushered the PM up to the roof
for a week or two...!!!

Tories - NEVER TRUST GOVE...!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:25 PM

"is boris actually never tested positive at all, and has been clear of the virus all along.."
Great minds - except I thought more in terms of a sympathy f*** - shame on us both
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:27 PM

Any congratulations are premature. Wait until the measures save lives and see if we come through this relatively unscathed. It is to be hoped that the government will use any respite brought about by social distancing to implement a proper text and trace regime like South Korea.

As to what the leader of the Labour party may or may not be guilty of, I repeat that the party in control of the country is the Tories. Boris is at the helm. Whatever goes wrong is firmly at his door. The opposition, as has been pointed out by gloating right wingers, can do nothing of any significance. Drawing attention to anything the Labour party may say or do is nothing but noise to divert attention from the failings of the present administration.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:55 PM

Iains - you seem to be floundering a bit today.
I never flounder, I know my plaice and I'm a dab hand at quoting facts. I never rely on cod science.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM

But your main problem is..

you frequently try too hard to convince us
you have no sole...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:07 PM

btw.. 10 full points to anyone who can work in "halibut"..

It defeated my efforts...

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

I was going to see the Halle but the concert has been cancwlled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

""halibut"."
We'll have to put that one to halibutration, I think, then we'll see the whiting on the wall
Holby City calls I'm afraid
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

could you tory boys, just to appear like resonable well-balanced people for a change, just give voice to some doubts or equivocations about your glorious leaders - go on - just for the halibut. we won't tell on you - ian duncan or ian smith

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:54 PM

Many singers have been broadcasting concerts from their homes, we watched the wonderful Soledad Pastorutti, an Argentine superstar over dinner!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:55 PM

We are too koi to carp.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:32 PM

Sally used to live in our alley but not any more.

Just saw in passing a bit of a TV doc here about one of HRH Charlie's various properties, a farm complex somewhere in Wales. The plummy voiced narrator, having described it as a Cottage, went on confidently and comfortably to enunciate that a building further removed from a palace could hardly be imagined. Has this creature never seen a tenement, a tower-block, a terrace of little back-to-back units?

How do so many people put up with this drivel?
How much do those in other countries laugh at us?
How much longer can "the juggle" (Thomas Paine, 1790s) continue?

Pure ragin' so Ah'm urr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:38 PM

What you mean is that the narrator speaks properly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:42 PM

No, he didn't, to tell ye the truth. He pronounced "properly" with only two syllables, an affectation of the English upper-middle class since about 1975/1980. And the message struck me as even more unpleasant than the accent.


"When the Sage points at the Moon, the Fool looks at his finger."

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:09 PM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:25 PM

"Right or Wrong, I'm Right."

ABCD

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:05 AM

That's the third time you have used that in as many days, Bonzo, and it wasn't original in the first place!

Just been watching something on TV that involved a Daily Mail reporter speaking against the government. Things must be bad. It was along the lines of who to believe. The government say that PPE is getting to the NHS. Doctors and Nurses in the field day not. The government say that chemicals to make testing kits are in short supply. The manufacturers say not. Who do we believe? This is not just about party politics. It is about confidence. People are realising that a party led by a man who has lied his way to the top are not to be trusted with things as important as the nation's health. No amount of pithy slogans will get us out of this one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM

No amount of pithy slogans will get us out of this one

Johnson rehires election chief to sharpen coronavirus messaging

No one denies getting the message across clearly is important. But the message needs to be how we are kept safe and keep ourselves safe. It is about us (the people) not them (the politicians). And I strongly suspect the remit of Levido will have making the government look as successful as possible as a key part, or even the main goal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:47 AM

Dave the Gnome, I know who I believe. So does virtually everyone else close to an NHS worker (even if sometimes they have to be more than two yards away).

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Johnson has finally come clean and admitted the Tories have lagged way behind
He said he will take personal charge - God help us all (lock up your wives and daughters)!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 05:22 AM

Following up from what Dave posted, this is from today's Labour List:

"Testing is the focus of media coverage today, with the Daily Mail branding it a “fiasco”. They have a point. The government is pressed every day for answers on why exactly the UK seems to be stuck on testing capacity, but a straight-forward answer is rarely offered. The latest reason is that there is a global shortage of chemical reagents, according to Michael Gove. Labour’s shadow business minister Bill Esterson has pointed out, however, that companies in the UK can make them but have not been asked to do so. This was checked by Robert Peston, who contacted the Chemical Industries Association, which said there was no shortage and they were happy to increase production anyway. Why, then, is the UK falling behind Germany and even the US on testing? The answer, it seems, lies in our initial strategy of mitigation and ‘herd immunity’ rather than suppression. Jeremy Hunt has agreed with that conclusion."

Blimey, even the Mail. Even Jeremy *unt! So yet another bare-faced Tory lie from Gove.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM

I never look at the business pages but on my way to Codeword my eye was caught by a magnificent photo of a circling vulture in an article listing the number or vulture companies taking advantage of the present crisis - if it worries The Times, it scares the shit out of me
If this isn't a clarion call for British business to be turned over to public control - at lease until the world is well clear of the effects of all of this, nothing ever will be
These bastards have been allowed to thrive on the tragedies of others for far too long (go count the number of politician shareholders and investors)
Predatory property investment brought about the worldwide crash of 2008, Ireland's desperate housing shorting is now being picked on by companies like Goldman Sachs - these predators thrive on the misfortunes of the majority - they prolong hunger, hardship, wars and disease rather than helping prevent them - all for profit
Like the Irish Famine, this is an unpreventable natural disaster that could turn into the long-term catastrophe possibly deliberate mishandling produced here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM

'we are too koi to carp' - excellent pun, I and I DS. much better than an answer to my question. i would doubt i'll be complementing you again - so don't get complaicent.

fin

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:23 AM

The answer, it seems, lies in our initial strategy of mitigation and ‘herd immunity’ rather than suppression. Jeremy Hunt has agreed with that conclusion."

suppress = forcibly put an end to.
The government announced it was moving away from contain/suppress to delay on March 12th.
I suggest you read the government action paper and try to understand the government's phased response.
1)Contain
2)Delay
3)Mitigate.
The decision to step up the response from Contain to Delay and then Mitigate will be taken on advice from the UK’s CMOs, taking into account the degree of sustained transmission and evident failure of measures in other countries to reduce spread.
(gov.uk coronavirus-action-plan)

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:33 AM

evident failure of measures in other countries to reduce spread

States like South Korea and Singapore you mean? Even China after its initial poor effort? Are you so partisan as to try and justify why your party is not learning from those who got it right?

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:45 AM

Slight change of subject, but it is closely linked, and it is happening as I type.

My next door neighbour had a severe toothache yesterday. He called the dentist but he cannot be seen because of isolation. He was told if it is still bad today, try again.

This morning he collapsed about 6am, as far as we can tell at the moment because of infection setting in. An ambulance was called over an hour ago (on 111 advice) but has still to arrive. We also know that a nephew died of sepsis in similar circumstances.

We hear from the Chief Medical Officer that the equivalent of 5 (I think) hospitals have been 'created' through re-prioritising things. That is, in effect, people like my neighbour not getting prompt treatment.

There will be a lot of deaths that are indirectly due to the virus, I think, which are just as important as deaths directly due to it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

I meant to add to the previous
As we have had a waterfall of defence for what the Government had now admitted to be the case, I now await with bated breath the screeching of these same 'patriots' defending the right of international companies to pick over the corpses of industries that will inevitably fall foul of the present crisis - staunch Brexiteers all, no doubt
Let's see, shall we - maybe they'll just think it's not worth commenting on
Very fishy - to keep a bit of light relief going
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM

I wondered about urgent dentistry, DMcG. My wife and I have both had non urgent appointments cancelled. I hope it turns out ok for your neighbour.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:01 AM

Did you mean to type "unpreventable," Jim? Potato blight in the 1840s might have been unpreventable, but the famine certainly wasn't. At the height of the famine Ireland was still exporting tons of butter across the Irish Sea, for example. Many commentators have railed against the use of the word "famine," for the very reason that it's a word that implies that the starvation of thousands of people was unavoidable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

evident failure of measures in other countries to reduce spread

Written by the UK government, If you do not like the tone of it take it up with them. There are a sufficiency of moaning minnies on this thread.
I also made it perfectly clear as to the source of the statement(gov.uk coronavirus-action-plan)

Some are just too ready to jump in with both feet before understanding what they are reading.

The government is taking a proactive response ie staged and reacting to external data as it becomes available.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM

"Written by the UK government, "
Who have just been dragged and screaming into reluctantly admitting their own
"gov.uk coronavirus-action-plan"
Dated March 3rd when they were still lying through their teeth anbout their own shortcomings
They still haven't addressed the fact that medical staff are risking their lives and health because they haven't enough protective equipment to keep them safe, which is also preventing others from volunteering
"Famine"
When I refer to this Steve, I am talking about the overall outcome - sorry- my shorthand
I have written enough about both the avoidability and the possible deliberate nature of the mass starvation which took place
Many Irish people refer to these events as 'Ireland's Holocaust' and I'm not uncomfortable with that descriptin
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:02 AM

The last ditch defense. "It wasn't me wot said it, guv..."

Fine. If you don't believe it, don't repeat it. If you do believe it, then tell us how Singapore and South Korea are failing. Tell us how the latest Chinese methods have not stemmed the flow. Tell us how the measures taken by the UK government are better than the measures of the countries just mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM

...and I suggest that you switch off attack mode. Personal assaults on other Muscat members such as "moaning minnies" and "jump in with both feet before understanding what they are reading" are likely to get your entire post deleted. That would be a shame as any valid points you may make alongside the gratuitous insults will be lost.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

I have little time for politicians but I have to say that our lot seem to have the edge (on this anyway)
It has just been found that testing is taking too long here and two patients have died without it being known the cause of either
Immediately this was announced by a government spokesman who said action would immediately taken to improve matters - along with an immediate apology
Apart from it not happening, yo can't really wish for better than that

The BBC is again reporting that shortages of protection equipment for front-line health workers is a major problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

I have little time for politicians but I have to say that our lot seem to have the edge (on this anyway)
It has just been found that testing is taking too long here and two patients have died without it being known the cause of either
Immediately this was announced by a government spokesman who said action would immediately taken to improve matters - along with an immediate apology
Apart from it not happening, yo can't really wish for better than that

The BBC is again reporting that shortages of protection equipment for front-line health workers is a major problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

Sorry for daring to comment about what's happening back home, by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 09:24 AM

Update on my neighbour: The ambulance arrived after around 1h 45 mins. The medics stayed with him for something like 40 minutes, because it seems they are trying to treat people at home when they can to keep the hospitals as free as possible. But they think there are signs of sepsis and have now taken him into the local hospital. His wife is, of course, not allowed to accompany him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM

We are not going to know who adopted the best tactics to minmise fatalities from this virus until long after the event. We do not know how many are infected,,who actually died from the virus directly ot even how effective testing is. We are likely still several weeks away from peak levels. The population density in London will pose special problems

                  positive               Deaths
Italy                  105,792               12,428                          
Spain                95,923                 8,464         
Germany          71,808                 775                 
France                52,128                 3,523         
UK                   25,150                 2.352                 
Switzerland      16,605                 433         
Belgium          12,775                 705                 
Netherlands    12,595                 1,039                 
Austria            10,298                  128

It is rate of hospitalisation and demand for intensive care versus the beds available that will influence final outcomes. The death rate will continue to rise until the lockdown takes effect. The common flu kills 14000 every year in the UK. This is a new virus with an unknown mortality rate. We will be lucky if it is less than 0.1%.
The virulence may reduceas the dayswarm, it could mutate to a renewed virulence come the autumn. There are simply too many unknowns at present and the mainstream media merely muddy the waters in search of cheap sensationalism. The UK was thought to be better prepared than most countries for a pandemic. Tiime will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:00 AM

We have a different issue. Our elderly but quite active neighbour had a stroke a few weeks back. While he was being treated in hospital they found he had cancer that had spread. They brought him home a few days ago but, sadly, he passed away this morning :-(

Visiting rules had already gone out the window of course but we shall wait until weekend before we attempt to talk to his widow. Just shows that in time of crisis it is not just life that goes on. Death still happens from all the usual caused too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM

"We are not going to know who adopted the best tactics to minmise fatalities from this virus "
It's not a ****** competition Iains and making it such is going to lessen the possibilities of co-operation - no-one wants 'other other side' to win
Those who represent us and those connected with us are all we can concern ourselves with and Britain and Ireland are close enough in distance culture and history to learn from one another
Britain only admits its shortcomings when it has no other alternative - under the first-past-the-post system and the fact that they have the popular media in their pockets, they are allowed to get away with that
For all its shortcomings, our system doesn't make that so easy
Johnson has now come clean, at least on one important issue - it's about time his supporters did likewise
Defending faults with whataboutism, which is what competition like this is really about - only makes matters worse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:36 AM

absolutely, jim. in the last week we have had 3 friends die - one in Cumbria, one in Bari, Italy and today our friend in Aberdeen. while the latter had been ill for some years with MS the others were virus victims. of course, there is no difference, they are all good people loved and missed by friends and family - grief and fear is something we can share the world over as a unifier. we're all from somewhere, doesn't matter where

Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:38 AM

"We are not going to know who adopted the best tactics to minimise fatalities from this virus "
It's not a ****** competition

Nor does it excuse you from trying to do your level best to minimise them now. So getting PPE in place now can only help. That makes it perfectly valid to ask why that is not happening to the extent strikes are being threatened over its absence.

Getting the tests the government wants to do in place now rather than later can only help. (Even if the tests are less useful than we thought, it is a good idea to know that as soon as possible.) Making it valid to ask why Gove thinks we are short of reagents when the manufacturers says we are not, and have not even been asked. "Is there evidence the government did ask this manufacturer" is a fair question.

Saying we can only judge things at the end is not how any plan I have ever come across works: you assess them continuously wherever possible.