BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jos
Date: 05 May 21 - 02:21 PM

"governing responsibly planning to redesign some hospitals and schools to be effctive at spreading viruseses"

Leaving aside the delightful typos, wouldn't making hospitals and schools "effective at spreading viruses" be irresponsible?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 21 - 02:10 PM

Jeri it sounds like you are saying everyone who disagrees with you is crazy. Governments have had a year to redesign buildings , redesigm schools and hospitals, do we not pay politicians to govern and have long term plans , instead of which in the uk we have someone who is more concerned about redesigning a house in downing street , than governing responsibly planning to redesign some hospitals and schools to be effctive at spreading viruseses , how long do governments need?
of course its easy for governments to abdicate responsibilty and say everyone will have to wear masks and do nothing in a year to ventilate public buildings, its just passing the buck to the public.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jeri
Date: 05 May 21 - 01:59 PM

There are numerous studies out there, but Steve (and anyone) is capable of searching for them. Living in the USA with its conspiracy theories and batshit crazy ideas, you can't dissuade people who believe that praying to little baby Jesus will prevent Covid because they're crazy. You can't convince people who rely on faith-based "medicine" that they're wrong, becausethey're crazy. You can't convince people who won't listen that "well documented" means there have been studies out the wazoo proving masks are effective that you're right, because they don't WANT to believe it. It's disappointing (I'm actually surprised), but there's a time to give up trying. Argument never changes anyone's mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:43 AM

Incidentally,

"It is well-documented that..."

Look up "weasel words" on wiki. Goes nicely with "it is widely recognised that..." "experts have shown that..." "everyone knows that..."

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:35 AM

That's as maybe. How much they help, if at all, can't be teased out from all the confounding factors such as social distancing and lockdown measures such as restricting indoor visits, closing pubs and restaurants, etc., and now vaccination. It's impossible to do a controlled experiment to isolate masks from all the other factors in order to glean their efficacy, but we can at least adopt a sort of precautionary principle. When you say they help you are speaking in hope, never from science. Which doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong. Just don't go thinking that a mask makes you so safe that you can be all blasé. The people who breach the distancing rules in the shops round here are all wearing masks. What should I make of that, d'ye think? None of this is really the point. The point is that, whatever we think, we should stick a mask on when it's legally required. That way, no-one need feel more threatened or vulnerable than they need to. Fine by me. I'm have mask, will travel at all times. Sorry if I sound like Mr Spock.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:10 AM

It is well-documented that masks help. How much they help is irrelevent. They help.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 08:18 PM

Well shops are entitled to refuse entry to non-mask wearers, to anyone at all actually, though it could be said that putting unfair burdens on shop staff, to require them to challenge customers, is a step too far. I agree that mask exemptions should be rare. It's hard to conjure up a sensible notion of some way of having instant identification of exempt people, a badge or sticker for example. However, I'm viscerally opposed to obliging anyone to publicly display an affliction. I'm deaf enough to struggle badly at supermarket checkouts when the shop is noisy and there's music on the tannoy, but I'm damned if I'm going to walk round town with a badge advertising the fact. I must be living in a very unrepresentative area, because I haven't seen this mask fake exemption problem round here.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:53 PM

I worked in hospital operating theatres and other departments nearly 50 years ago: we all wore masks: surgeons, anaesthetists, nurses, theatre assistants, porters: no-one, but nobody at all was exempt. You just got used to it, wearing them all day, with maybe a new one after lunch if you got a break at all. So I am slightly sceptical of some modern-day claims to be exempted from wearing masks now: e.g. whole gangs of teenagers going into the local Co-op for their lunchtime fast food fix, ALL claiming they can’t wear masks as they have asthma!

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 06:30 PM

I'm rather pleased that my sour attitude irks you. I would much rather suffer from a sour attitude than your broadcasting of the fact that you appear to want the world to see you as a confounded and unstable idiot almost every time you post. Perhaps, after the last couple of days of your shameful posting, you would consider refraining from making any further stupid comments about me. You have nothing to say that I want to even remotely engage with apropos of the substantive issues of this and other threads, so let's just settle for that and avoid each other, please.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 06:22 PM

We don't behave like that because, to put it as simply as I can, and not for the first time, we are in this together and we have no wish to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, insecure or vulnerable. It's a function of our accepting (contrary to many an accusation here) the fact that other people may not share our views, and may be even required to wear masks as part of their jobs. I don't go around feeling all hoity-toity about being "forced" to wear a mask. Like everybody else, I just put the bloody thing on then forget it. I have two friends who refuse to wear masks (and who think Bill Gates is out to get them), and I am extremely critical of them. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 21 - 06:05 PM

So when I went to a&e the other month would it have been ok to refuse to wear my mask?

Would it have been appropriate to say to the staff, why are you wearing those masks when there is a lack of evidence as to their efficacy?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 21 - 05:55 PM

Stve and others say they have near perfect mask behavior which is all well and good. What irks me is his sour attitude about the whole thing.
I suspect the subject is more inflamatory here but maybe not.

And here are the wayward missing e,e,e's that perform poorly on this keyboard.

!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whoa, I think that was more Chinese rocket debris that just cratered in the backyard.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 05:36 PM

Take a me too from me, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 21 - 05:09 PM

yes but we have had the pandemic for over a year , governments could have done it months ago. plus provide evidence of mask effectiveness, before you make such a statement.
yes, i wear a mask but i am not sure or have seen evidence of EXACTLY how effective masks are , have you?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:34 PM

INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPATION is infentiisimal compared to well thought government strategy. ventilation of buildings design of buildings to deal with viral infection etc.. is just as important as wearing a mask[a mask that may have been handled or dirty etc ]

Most public buildings put up in the last generation have terrible air circulation when aerosolized pathogens are the issue. The timescale we are dealing with is months, not decades. Masks can work that fast, rebuilding can't.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:25 AM

amny way i now have marked 3 people on this forum, who i reckon would love to put on a uniform and start goosestepping

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:05 AM

Whether I spot my own typing errors depends on whether I'm not wearing my reading specs (lethal), using my iPhone (severe), both those at once (which generally means I'm posting whilst still in bed, leaning up on one elbow), or using my iPad mini (mild to moderate). It's rarely worth picking anyone up for their little peccadillos, unless, of course, they're having a go at me for mine. Then it can become open season, as Nigel will tell you... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:05 AM

Stilly River Sage posted:
"299 people in the US are confirmed to have died of COVID-19 yesterday. One day total is the equivalent of an airliner crash, but it passes by barely remarked on."

There have been a number of discussions here in the UK about number of covid deaths or number of excess deaths.

The following article in today's Guardian was a sobering read.

"A 30 year old American is three times more likely to die at that age than his or her European peers. In fact, Americans do worse at just about every age. To make matters more grim, the American disadvantage is growing over time.

In 2017, for example, higher American mortality translated into roughly 401,000 excess deaths – deaths that would not have occurred if the US had Europe’s lower age-specific death rates. Pre-pandemic, that 401,000 is about 12% of all American deaths. The percentage is even higher below age 85, where one in four Americans die simply because they do not live in Europe"

Why do Americans die earlier than Europeans?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jos
Date: 04 May 21 - 06:32 AM

As typos go, I really like Sandman's 'infentiisimal'.

It made my morning (I'm easily pleased), and I had no problem understanding it.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 21 - 05:20 AM

"WTF is a "prmonition"!?"

I had a feeling that Donuel was going to spell it like that.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:32 AM

By the way, in a discussion forum in which I'm putting my point of view in a direct yet polite and carefully constructed manner (which is what we are supposedly here to do), I think that trying to shut someone down by telling them "enough already" comes across as somewhat jarring and even just a tad authoritarian...

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:27 AM

Are you reading my posts, Maggie? Did you see the bit that said And at least on this side of the ocean compliance with the rules has been generally pretty good. The people have done well? How does that compute with "I think your view discounts the incredible impact individual participation can make when people resolve to do things effectively to protect themselves and those around them," pray tell?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 21 - 01:58 AM

i agree with Steve Shaw.
INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPATION is infentiisimal compared to well thought government strategy. ventilation of buildings design of buildings to deal with viral infection etc.. is just as important as wearing a mask[a mask that may have been handled or dirty etc ]

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 May 21 - 11:01 PM

A typo.

And again, Steve, we must agree to disagree because I think your view discounts the incredible impact individual participation can make when people resolve to do things effectively to protect themselves and those around them. Now enough already.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jeri
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:17 PM

WTF is a "prmonition"!?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:16 PM

And your pronouncements about the efficacy of masks, even going so far as to say that people who genuinely can't wear them shouldn't leave their houses, are made with such certainty that you make other opinions look more than tepid. I'm quite happy that we can disagree on this, but you must accept that flaccid leadership in your country, my country, India, Brazil and elsewhere, and leaky national borders, have played a massive part in making this a GLOBAL pandemic. You can hit out at mask rebels all you like but you won't stop them from being rebels (by rebels I mean refusers, by the way, not reluctant compliers like me), and, as I sort of said before, out of a hundred or two mask rebels it could be that one or none will actually have the infection. That doesn't remotely make them right or safe, but we need to get a grip on where the real problem lies. It is terrible leadership and mass movement of people, mostly for slight reasons, across international borders. This virus doesn't have wings. And at least on this side of the ocean compliance with the rules has been generally pretty good. The people have done well, we have few cases compared to most other countries but our government is seriously adept at throwing away the advantage, as it seems about to do again apropos of allowing foreign holidays both in and out of the country. Unfocussed blaming ordinary people is futile and negative and won't change anything for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:12 PM

Raindog, thanks for posting it first. Prmonition is worth its weight in gold.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:41 PM

We will have to agree to disagree about who spreads it. There is plenty of blame to go around though your pronouncements suggest any other opinion is tepid. There is PLENTY of information here in the US, but unfortunately the Resident of the White House for four years was averse to science and facts. And his followers have piled on in arguing against common sense personal behavior. Those individuals are definitely part of the problem. Modi in India is a Little Trump on a much larger stage. He bears a considerable part of the blame, and it trickles down through his chosen administrators if they dismiss medical facts.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 May 21 - 06:55 PM

New York Times review of Michael Lewis's book The Premonition - A Pandemic Story

New York Times review

It was an extract from the book in The UK Sunday Times that surprised me with the news of the genome tracking in th US

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 21 - 06:20 PM

In this country we have had mixed messages from the top for well over a year. There has been massive confusion about what you can or can't do, what's legal and what's illegal, starting or ending on this date or that. We've had a labyrinthine four-tier system of restrictions that even the politicians didn't understand. We've had hubris from Johnson about defeating the virus in twelve weeks. We've had Tory little-England exceptionalism. We've had a government test and trace app costing tens of billions that doesn't work. You can be in trouble with the law if you fail to self-isolate when the app tells you to, but you don't even have to have the bloody app! We've had delayed lockdowns that have cost thousands of lives. We've had untested sick people sent from hospital into care homes. Tens of thousands of old people have died as a result. We are currently talking up the shining possibility of foreign holidays and our borders are way too porous and quarantine has, at times, been de facto voluntary.

So I don't want to hear about ordinary people being blamed. Of course, there will always be a few. Round here, people all comply valiantly with all the rules when they can, but it's often impossible, in free-for-all supermarkets for example. Everybody round here wears a mask when required. The people in this country have been very good about this. So I'm not accepting blame. It might be different in America, I wouldn't know. But we have leaders who are supposed to lead, not confuse us. We have done it in spite of our leaders. I want to see them promoting a national sense of communal responsibility, predicated on sound, clear advice and abundant information. There has been little sign of a coordinated effort to do that. So put the blame where it truly lies, not on a few renegade non-mask wearers.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 May 21 - 05:52 PM

299 people in the US are confirmed to have died of COVID-19 yesterday. One day total is the equivalent of an airliner crash, but it passes by barely remarked on.

There are a lot of people out there not pulling their weight when it comes to protecting others. And so many have died that the tragedy of deaths now is that they are viewed as business as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 21 - 04:05 PM

What is the remedy when someone offends an entire country or world?
Facebook is about to review their decision to deplateform Donald Trump. Florida adds its 2 cents by signing a law to fine Faceebook $250,000 if they deplateform anyone without warning and other things...
what to do what to do?!
signed, the incomprehensible one :^?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 May 21 - 11:29 AM

The whole herd immunity thing was put succinctly on a radio interview today. During a pandemic we live in a time of great personal sacrifice for the greater good. Too many people don't understand that, or have decided the political response is their approach rather than an altruistic attitude. Simply put.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 May 21 - 10:43 AM

Donuel:

Simply put

Are you capable of doing that. I usually find you as incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 21 - 10:36 AM

double mutant variant

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 May 21 - 10:08 AM

From The Guardian today

"New Zealand’s customs agency has fired nine border workers who refused to get the Covid-19 vaccine. The country has required all frontline border workers to be vaccinated by the end of April.

In February, the prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, said the government would not be making the vaccine compulsory for frontline staff, and that those who declined the vaccine would be moved into backroom roles.

But no other work could be found to redeploy the nine workers who were in fixed term employment at the maritime border, Jacinda Funnell, Customs’ deputy chief executive for people and capability, said."

New Zealand fires nine border workers who refused Covid vaccine

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:42 AM

I saw several articles this morning that say the US will not reach herd immunity.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:38 AM

A month old but does not appear to have been mentioned here.

Nature 7th April 2021

"As COVID-19 cases surge again in the United States, coronavirus variants are on the rise. But researchers fear that the country is ramping up surveillance of the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 too slowly, allowing these variants — which evidence shows1,2 could make vaccines less effective — to spread undetected in one of the countries hit hardest by the disease.

Laboratories supported by the US government have doubled the rate at which they are sequencing SARS-CoV-2 genomes over the past two months. Still, the number of genomes that the country shared in the online genome repository GISAID in March represented only 1.6% of its positive COVID-19 cases that month. And the United States lags behind at least 30 countries in terms of the sequencing it has done throughout the pandemic, according to GISAID data"

Full article here

Why US coronavirus tracking can’t keep up with concerning variants

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:04 AM

Simply put in a time of pandemic you have to imagine yourself differently. I believe most of us have. Those who can not, deserve to be shunned and distanced be it for academic, ignorant or imagined reasons.

That goes for for some in the CDC to the most dysfunctional Trumper.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 21 - 04:39 PM

no offence intended, maggie, hopefully we will meet in heaven playing the harp but not just yet

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 21 - 04:18 PM

it is also spread by lack of ventilation in buildings, hospitals, schools, supermarkets, they need to be redesigned too, masks are only part of the solution and are not as important as ventilation, some hopitals need to be redesigned specifically to deal with viruses, regardless of masks.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 May 21 - 03:00 PM

Dick, no, I haven't been to Ireland, I haven't researched COVID around the world, so in the context of a TRUMP remark you can safely assume I'm speaking of the United States. And we were speaking of INDOORS, where everyone should still be wearing masks. In the US those of us who have been fully vaccinated can go without masks out of doors in open settings with small vaccinated groups.

Steve you can rant on about global travel being at fault but when it comes down to it, people in close contact with people is how it spreads, wherever they are from. It is a courtesy to others to still wear the mask indoors even if you are fully vaccinated. There are break-out cases where vaccinated people can still catch COVID-19. They can be sick for many days, most likely at home. They can still possibly spread to others.

As the Instagram and Twitter hashtag says, #WearTheDamnMask

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 May 21 - 02:56 PM

The most prominent agitator for mask refusal in Ireland is Dolores Cahill of the Irish Freedom Party. Whose politics is straight-out delusional Trumpism.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 21 - 01:39 PM

The lion's share of unmasked people are scofflaws and Trump supporters who think their freedom to spread disease outweighs the good of the society at large.
well there are not many trump supporters in ireland but there are some non mask wearers some of them have had both vaccinations, Maggie you are ignorant of the situation in ireland

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 21 - 12:57 PM

So someone who genuinely can't wear a mask is confined to quarters? Sheesh... And the other thing is that you seem to be assuming that not wearing a mask is THE cause of the spread. Well I disagree. The reasons this is a global pandemic is that international travel has been allowed, and don't get me started on lax procedures in shops, public transport and care homes. This virus spreads from country to country via international travel and from person to person when lots of people congregate in crowded places. Round here, everyone complies with the mask-wearing obligation. But mask-abuse is the norm. A paper mask used for day after day. Ill-fitting masks. Mask stowed under the chin. Noses scratched through a mask or sticking out over the top of the mask. Discarded mask litter everywhere. Mask wearers thinking that keeping your distance doesn't matter as long as your mask is on.

It's notable that island countries with sparse populations (Australia, New Zealand) have been only lightly affected. Also, they have been very strict apropos of their borders. Cornwall, where I live, is a big county with a small population. Our case numbers have consistently been been among the lowest in the country. Take a clue from all that. The occasional mask rebel you see (hardly any round here) probably isn't infected anyway. It would take an awful lot of mask rebels to pose much of a threat, even if masks did work. I don't think masks do much good at all and I haven't seen strong evidence to the contrary. I am not even remotely a mask rebel, not because I don't think that masks are almost useless but because I don't want to make anyone I encounter in a shop to feel insecure.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 May 21 - 12:25 PM

I have not seen anyone challenged by a member of the public for not wearing a mask. Mask wearing in shops is fairly good on the whole here.

and


There is never justification for haranguing non-mask wearers. The reasons for some people being exempt are never visibly apparent.


I have to disagree with both of these remarks. People do challenge non-mask wearers here, because at this point it is obvious to most people that we're doing the heavy lifting in trying to prevent this pandemic from spreading and these freeloaders are the ones who are going to keep it going for a lot longer than needed.

If you can't wear a mask, then don't go out. Take care of business out-of-doors or have things delivered. Don't wander around stores and other places where your presence is entirely discretionary with no mask. The lion's share of unmasked people are scofflaws and Trump supporters who think their freedom to spread disease outweighs the good of the society at large.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 May 21 - 09:23 AM

Shake it all about, then snort it [grin]?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 May 21 - 05:28 AM

It's going to be impossible to contain the new Indian variants to India - it's just too big and too linked with the rest of the world.

What the rest of the world can do is not fuck their response up as badly as India has done. The American South looks like flushing itself down the same toilet.

The UK coped with the smoking ban fairly well - hardly anyone flouts it and the change was quick. Mask refusal is much more dangerous and happens much more often. And the tobacco industry didn't put up that much of a fight. The implication is that whoever's backing mask refusal, as a collective thing, is a more effective and better organized enemy of the mass of humanity than even Big Tobacco was.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 21 - 04:35 AM

mrzy, do you know if you spoke to me loudly and politely. i might do the hokey cokey

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 May 21 - 03:55 AM

There is breaking the rules and breaking the rules - but all through the pandemic there has also been a number of rabid don't do this or don't do that type people.

One local FB user during the first lock down vented from her house in St Boswells that "it is like Piccadilly Circus out there......counted over 30 people go past in the last half an hour.............and some have backpacks so obviously going further than allowed"

I thought the obsession of sitting at your window counting how many people were going past was weird in the extreme. And 30 people in 30 minutes is hardly Piccadilly Circus anyway. And backpacks are good for putting things like coats and cameras etc in even if not walking that far. You were allowed to go for an hour's walk even at the height of the first lock down here so no-one was necessarily breaking any rule. Yet this person thought everyone should stay in their homes like prisoners just because she was.

Then there was another who went to Lidl but saw the big queue and decided to not bother - so she went home and vented about all the sefish b******* going shopping for their drink and BBQ food etc. Yet they were only doing exactly the same as she intended doing. Shop!

There has been some strange behaviour though on the most part folks have been great.