BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 01:57 PM

I have to say I don't admire your conviction that masks don't work, the "science" behind that belief is squishy, and I find your dismissal of them problematic. This opinion plays into the hands of the anti-vaxxers. I think it's (literally) a dead wrong belief.

Masks not only help avoid contamination to others if we have the virus, and help prevent breathing in the virus from others, they serve as a reminder that we need to keep our distance and watch where we go indoors and what we touch.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: steve_harris
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 02:43 PM

"This should be a heads-up to those who think vaccine is enough - it isn't. We still need the whole protocol of continuing to social distance and #WearTheDamnMask!"

An argument I've heard (in UK) goes like this:
1. Now we have Delta, everyone is going to encounter the virus real soon now.
2. So, getting vaxed is a great idea as it reduces death/hospitalization as well as some infection and transmission.
3. Other mitigations slow the spread and might delay encountering the virus. But it will knock on your door eventually
4. One possible argument for other mitigations is that they help to "flatten the curve" and reduce peak demand for healthcare. But a flatter curve still has the same number of people under it - the whole thing just takes longer
5. Your best time for your inevitable first encounter with the virus is when your immunity is highest. For many people, that's a few weeks after their 2nd vax. I know someone cautious who is waiting for their third "booster" dose before going to Folk Club

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 03:32 PM

My successor, a former employee of mine, told his people last spring that they could not come back to work without proof of vaccination or, failing that, until the pandemic subsided. His company does finish carpentry in the interiors of large homes, high rises, club houses and cruise ships in the presence of many other tradesmen so it was made clear that opting out of the vaccination was not negotiable if they wanted to keep working. He's a one man operation with no HR dept. and doesn't have time to be a nurse maid though he gets along very well with his people. His crew of about 15 or 16 all got vaxxed as soon as they could. Libertarian ideology might be appealing to armchair philosophers but in the real world it doesn't keep you, your workmates and your family safe. Now if you want to continue this you should take it to the COVID thread. I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

So tell me how sacking people who still won't get the vaccine after they've been sacked and who then keep on going out into the big wide world is going to make that big wide world safer. It might make your workplace safer (or it might not) but you will have solved nothing in the wider scheme of things. I can see a case for being stricter with people who work with the vulnerable. Otherwise, try to remember that we live in a democracy, and, generally speaking, democracies don't try to force people to have needles stuck in them. Always persuasion, never compulsion. Information and education are the way to get doubters to agree to be vaccinated. We don't do very well with that, do we, preferring to let Facebook make gazillions    and completely neglect their social responsibilities via the peddling of conspiracy theories and downright lies by its members.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:17 PM

" I think, but I don't know, that you're wrong about masks."

Gets the response:

"I have to say I don't admire your conviction that masks don't work, the "science" behind that belief is squishy, and I find your dismissal of them problematic. This opinion plays into the hands of the anti-vaxxers. I think it's (literally) a dead wrong belief."

So you think that when I say "I think, but I don't know..." it expresses a conviction, do you? Well I'm amazed at this apparent lack of understanding of plain English. You also misuse the word "belief" and I think you know it. One more time: mask-wearing (which I think should be voluntary in almost every circumstance beyond hospitals and care homes: in no way do I oppose or dismiss that) and vaccination are separate issues. At best I'm lukewarm about the one and a hearty supporter of the other. if you see any anti-vaxxer using my opinion about masks to support their case (you never will, but hey ho), well you know what to say to them.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:41 PM

I wish I could find data on the difference in the rate of covid infection between schools that mandate masks and those that don't. It's out there, I've heard it, but I don't know where to find it. There IS a big difference that indicates masks are effective.

Otherwise, when it comes to beliefs, It doesn't do any good to try to convince other people they're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 04:58 PM

The thing about beliefs, Jeri, is that they don't have to be predicated on evidence. Science and belief are generally at odds should any conflict surface. I can be persuaded by evidence. Beliefs can be interesting...

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 05:17 PM

Jeri at least you tried to provide evidence. There are cretins who never provide any for their stated opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 06:46 PM

Such a helpful remark, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 07:47 PM

Any evidence comparing schools, by the way, would be observational only (in other words, not based on controlled experimental investigation). Schools are diverse places in every way, and confounding factors would abound. It's no good turning a blind eye to this: every observational study I've seen with regard to masks has been confronted by this issue, and only the best of them even bother to admit to it. Another obstacle to credibility is small sample numbers. Observational studies on human behaviour can do little more than suggest further investigation. They can rarely lead us to rock-solid conclusions informing future action. I'm not saying that observation is useless. It's a valuable scientific tool, and for millennia it was the only tool we had. The potential pitfalls are huge. Observational science told us that the sun goes round the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 08:26 PM

This is from today's Guardian. It's about how our crisis-ridden care sector is about to be struck by another lethal blow once the compulsory vaccine rule comes in next month:

Carol Thomas, a retired health academic who lives with multiple sclerosis, is about to lose not just a carer but a companion because of the government’s “no jab, no job” policy.

Unless the policy is changed, which looks unlikely after the health secretary, Sajid Javid, this month told unjabbed care workers to “get out and get another job”, the 62-year-old’s days of being cared for by Debbie Vickers are numbered.

Vickers, who has more than a dozen years’ experience in social care and the NHS, has become a friend as well as someone who hoists Thomas in and out of bed and undertakes the most personal of care for the former professor at Lancaster University’s faculty of health and medicine.

But she is among tens of thousands of care home staff in England declining the vaccine who now face redundancy. Guardian analysis of the latest NHS data reveals the decision to make full Covid-19 vaccination a “condition of deployment” from 11 November is on course to force up to 38,000 staff out of care homes for older people, deepening a staffing crisis which is already causing care home closures and discharge backlogs in hospitals.

As of 10 October 12% of staff in older adult care homes were still not fully vaccinated, rising to more than one in five in areas including Birmingham, Manchester, Stoke and Hackney in London. A small number of these may be able to apply for medical exemptions.

Vickers said she was “no anti-vaxxer”. Her decision comes because of an earlier adverse reaction to a flu jab. She may get a few weeks’ grace, but she still faces redundancy from what Thomas believes is an ethically wrong and practically illogical “insulting, discriminatory blanket ban”.

Many see the value in care workers being vaccinated, given Covid was involved in the deaths of 42,732 care home residents in England and Wales to the start of October. But with 105,000 care staff vacancies in England exacerbated by a slump in foreign workers arriving to fill the low-wage roles, operators are calling for a pause on the strict policy, which not does not apply to NHS staff.

Now tell me who you think is being irrational here...

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 21 - 08:51 PM

The caretaker should get the shot anyway. The COVID vaccine is not in any way related to a flu shot. Her bad, but it's a double-whammy, really too bad for the woman she works for who is dependent on the care she provides. I have no sympathy for that home health care worker, and the vaccine should be mandatory. She's risking several lives by not being vaccinated - she could infect her employer who sounds even less likely to survive COVID. Reckless endangerment in the workplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:46 AM

I said I'd tell you when I disagreed, Steve. Seat belts are compulsory. Crash helmets are compulsory. Walking round town with your tackle out is banned. I cannot see a reason not to make Covid jabs compulsory unless there is a medical exemption.

Now this discussion should probably be taken to another thread. Although that is not compulsory

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:31 AM

Dave, seat belts and crash helmets are not intrusive into the body (interesting that we never made cycle helmets compulsory...the winning arguments against compulsion were quite intriguing...). An injection forced on you is tantamount to assault. The sacked unvaccinated person is still free to circulate among the public to their heart's content. The risk is merely spread around, not eliminated. Far better to use reassurance, persuasion and countering information to the scaremongering stuff that made them refusers in the first place. We are well behind the curve on that and it's lamentable. I actually regard that as yet another government failure. What we agree on is that we would far rather see the carer get the vaccine. Democracies don't force people to have needles stuck in them.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:25 AM

Meanwhile in the state of Victoria in the land of Oz - https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/anti-lockdown-protester-accused-of-5g-tower-fire-plot-to-capture-premier-20211014-p5905y.html - An anti-lockdown protester accused of lighting a phone tower on fire because it carried 5G allegedly told police he dug a large hole in his backyard to imprison Premier Daniel Andrews ... A police prosecutor told the Melbourne Magistrates’ Court on Thursday evening that Mr Glover answered a September call-out in a chat group on encrypted messaging app Telegram called “Hoodlums of Melbourne Special Ops” ... “I’m down for special ops only if I get to burn something down.” The chat group’s administrator responded: “Those 5G towers would make a nice fire”, to which Mr Glover allegedly replied, “my thinking exactly, I’ve made preparations already” ... (suspend disbelief & read on)

I can't do a blicky as there seems to be a problem on the paper's website - creating the blicky in both firefox & chrome leads to a 14 year old unrelated article on the site, very weird. Both URLS start with www.theage.com.au/national/ & then go off in very different directions.

One Of Life's Little Mysteries.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 07:33 AM

I've just been reading up about the eradication of smallpox. Vaccination was worldwide, and in many places compulsory.
I was vaccinated as a child, and so was my husband in Cote d'Ivoire. We both have the small scars on our arms to prove it.
By concerted efforts around the world, smallpox was more-or-less eradicated, although there are from time to time very tiny outbreaks. I understand there is a large stockpile of vaccine, ready to tackle any future smallpox.
I realise the two diseases are not identical, but surely the history of smallpox eradication by dedicated vaccination should be an encouragement to introduce compulsory Covid jabs for all? It's such a tiny procedure, not painful, not dangerous. But Covid is bloomin' 'orrible and deadly. Seems obvious to me, but then I'm not a needlephobe or a refusnik.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 08:41 AM

First came inoculation developed in England for small pox then several lifetimes later Jenner made a small pox vaccine from a variant.
During the cold war the Soviet Union stockpiled TONS of small pox virus as a one two punch for nuclear annihilation strategy.
Eliza you have your finger on the pulse of certain men's insanity.
Lets hope you don't lose your touch.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 09:13 AM

Anti mask & vax folks do not have a valid point in this time of a global health emergency. Its like suicide and euthanasia are being practiced legally because unstable people are killing themselves and others with Covid. Killing without the permission of the uninfected should be punished as a special form of manslaughter. I approve of euthanasia only with the permission of the hopeless and suffering.

You hear anti mask folks rant against the obvious but they never see their own ravings as insane and/or contradictory.

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 09:21 AM

Anti mandate, mask & vax folks do not have a valid point in this time of a global health emergency.
You see anti mask folks rant against the obvious truth but they never see their own ravings as insane or contradictory. Sometimes the crazy don't know they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Whats your shortage- is it hype? Supply chain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 11:34 AM

"Anti mandate, mask & vax folks do not have a valid point in this time of a global health emergency.
You see anti mask folks rant against the obvious truth but they never see their own ravings as insane or contradictory. Sometimes the crazy don't know they are."

This is intemperate. Anti-mandate (a respectable viewpoint, right or wrong) and anti-vax folks (an utter disgrace) are completely different species. I don't know any anti-mask people personally. I know plenty of people who are against the compulsory wearing of masks but who respect the choice of others to wear masks. That's the camp I'm in. You are calling us insane, contradictory and crazy. You claim to know the obvious "truth." Well you don't, and neither do I. You can be a good lad and promote the precautionary principle and be respected for that, or you can insult people who happen not to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 11:52 AM

So Eliza, you're in favour of pinning every refuser down so that they can be forcefully injected. I'm afraid I'm not with you.

I've responded to your rather silly and over-the-top similar post on the other thread, Donuel. Let's just say here that thank goodness I don't know any anti-maskers. I know a couple of anti-vaxxers round here who are weird in at least several other ways as well. They are impenetrable. Vaccine refuseniks are often just vaccine-unsure, vaccine-hesitant or vaccine-scared, or the victims of rumours and scare-stories. Those are the people we need to work on via education, reassurance and persuasion. Sticking needles into them while they kick and scream is simply not permissible. The state does not own people and we must preserve democracy. Those of you who support Facebook via your membership should consider that huge numbers of the refuseniks you are excoriating are refuseniks because of the sheer irresponsibility of the organisation which couldn't exist without you. Perhaps you could reflect on that before offering condemnatory opinions about people who just might be harbouring reasonable points of view that don't happen to concur with yours.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:08 PM

Democracies don't force people to have needles stuck in them.

Bull. My kids had to be vaxxed to go to public achool. I have to get vaxxed to travel. Loads of vaxxes are compulsory.

And should be.

If people won't do it voluntarily yes democracies can make them.

And should.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:18 PM

Incidentally, smallpox was eradicated by consent, and by no means everyone was vaccinated against it. I wasn't, and I don't know anyone at all who was (I'm 70, so was definitely of the time when smallpox was widespread). I should also like to point out several crucial differences between smallpox and the current coronavirus. Smallpox is not transmitted from person to person until the blisters appear. Every time, you can see the risk because you can see the blisters. With COVID-19, transmission is possible from people with no symptoms, which could be a third of all infected people. Smallpox is rarely transmitted through the air, unlike COVID-19, with which the air is its main means of transmission. Prolonged close contact in enclosed spaces is usually required for the transmission of smallpox, whereas such close contact and lengthy time periods are not required for COVID-19 to pass from person to person.

In a nutshell, smallpox was never as catching as COVID-19 is. That makes it a far easier (though still not too easy) disease to eradicate. It isn't especially instructive to compare the campaigns against these two diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:27 PM

You made that decision for your children who were too young to decide for themselves. I made that decision for mine, too. I'm amazed that your schools can insist on a child's vaccination. Quite rightly ,the advocacy by schools here is strong, but enforcement is considered to be a step too far. As for travel, there are countries I can't go to unless I'm vaccinated against this, that or the other. Two things: first, you don't have to travel. If you don't, you don't have to get the vaccine. You still have that choice. Telling someone they'll lose their livelihood is somewhat less of a choice, to say the least. Second, it could be the country you're going to that does the insisting.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 12:54 PM

Canadian public schools also require pupils to be vaccinated, and tested for contact with tuberculosis, too. The death toll from polio in particular is still fresh enough in memory to keep that regulation in place, reinforced by the damage done by occasional outbreaks of red measles. People who object to that mandate have to find private schools where the administration shares their opinions -- an expensive proposition -- or home-school their children.

Likewise, if you want to work in a Canadian restaurant, TB testing is mandatory. If you don't like it, tough.

The threat of smallpox is not limited to close contact with the sick in the acute stage of infection; the virus survives in dried exudate on their clothes and bedding. (In quarantine hospitals, all such contaminated materials were burned.) Surely you've heard of the accusations of "germ warfare" levelled against the early British military government in Canada, based on the distribution of contaminated blankets to the neighbouring First Nations. That was in the 1760s, and I don't think that virus has changed its habits.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 01:30 PM

Among the irrational macho anti mandate and vaccine personalities are the Police. It is the leading cause of death for police officers in the last 2 years. In Chicago many cops are willing to go on unpaid leave for their delusion.
They were willing to lie and claim a religious or libertaian objection exception. Could it be that police have a relationship with death that is quite different from you or me? Probably.
Death Wish 19 might be a psyche disease like a cancer that intertwines between duty, honor, devotion and strength. But not likely in my way of wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 01:44 PM

I don't think anyone is advocating holding people down and forcing them, Steve. Bit of a straw man then. And surely, your point about not having to travel apples equally to a chosen profession. People in health care can choose another occupation if they don't want to be vaccinated. Yes, yes, I know there is a shortage and that is likely to make matters worse. I am just pointing out that they are not being forced to have the vaccine, just like international travellers can choose not to.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:51 PM

I may sound angry at times but through it all is the foundation of the preciousness of humanity. I know some people do not have any empathy like some are bald and some aren't. Most of us have to care for the empathy free folks despite their unrequited empathy. We can 'knit them a hat' and wish for the best.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 03:51 PM

Eliza appeared to be advocating compulsory universal vaccination, Dave. You may be talking about coercion with regard to employment, not compulsion, but when your livelihood is at stake the line between them is as fine as can be. I also see a possible legal and moral argument that employers should not be able to alter contracts on this particular issue in a one-sided way. We are talking about sticking needles into people, lest we forget... We can't stop employers declining to take on vaccination refuseniks, but I'm very troubled about the potential ability to sack them.

Yes, Charmion, I know that, but it shouldn't divert from my overall point that the campaigns against smallpox and COVID-19 are not comparable, because smallpox is far less catching and COVID-19 can transmit under cover, which smallpox can't. Different strategies are needed, and smallpox was abolished without compulsion and without universal vaccination. The one doesn't inform the other very well.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:14 PM

Fairy Nuff. I didn't spot the compulsory bit. I do disagree about it being compulsory for all. However, to do certain things there have always been rules. To ride a motorbike, you must wear a helmet. To care for vulnerable people, you must have the vaccine. Overly simple maybe but provides clarity at least.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:25 PM

I mentioned tons of small pox virus had been stockpiled. that is litterally TONS! When you consider how 'light' virus are and that small pox is 50 to 80% fatal it is alot of small pox.

We hear how airplane crashes are miniscule compared to the number of flights ,it doesn't feel that way when I watch Air Disasters tv shows with hundreds of crash investigations. Like Stilly says its 3 giant air buses crashing everyday with no survivors when it comes to Covid in this country alone.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:38 PM

Foolhardy devil's advocate posts abound here lately, supporting the rights of the ignorant to continue being able to infect others.

Vaccines should be compulsory for most public activities, with the occasional MEDICAL excuse. Never a religious excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:46 PM

Well I have no idea what you mean by public activities. I can only guess at the intended scope. Perhaps, instead of calling people with carefully measured and carefully considered opinions, right or wrong, you could stop the kind of misinformation which is constantly peddled here. There is a large error in the post of 04.25pm for example, that can be checked in ten seconds, from a person I never see you criticising. I submit to you that a closely-argued opinion, capable of being civilly disagreed with, is far less damaging than blatant misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 05:47 PM

The word "foolhardy" was intended after "right or wrong."

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 06:22 PM

Steve, my point is that smallpox doesn’t have to be seen to be a threat.

Indeed, COVID is more contagious. That should make us more cautious, not less.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 07:09 PM

Yes, I know what you were saying, but you do at least know that the contaminated clothing and bedding came from a smallpox victim, so not hidden in the same sense as COVID-19 being hidden by the fact that it can transmit under cover from asymptomatic people, which could be around one infected person in three. As for needing to be more careful with covid-19, well we can hardly say for ANY potentially fatal infection that we should be more careful or less careful (or more careless) with one than with the other. Ethics, and all that. It's worth contemplating that the mortality rate (a term fraught with difficulty, though probably easier for smallpox as it is such an obvious and prominent infection when someone has it) for smallpox was around 30%, whereas for Covid-19 the mortality rate is in single numbers or less (fraught because we can't simply divide the number of confirmed cases by number of deaths, as many cases go unreported - mild symptoms or symptoms not recognised - or are asymptomatic). That is not in any way an argument for being either more careful or less careful. We must be as careful as it is humanly and practically possible to be. What we are arguing about here is the degree to which each step we take is either not enough, too much, or not required. As there's some evidence that transmission from hands or surfaces is possible (live virus has been harvested from those surfaces), sanitation is a no-brainer. Making every effort to keep your distance and to avoid crowded confined spaces, as we know that airborne is the main means of transmission, no-brainer. Taking the vaccine, far and away the best thing that everyone can do. Walking around with a damp rag on your face, that is infected if you're infected and doing very little if you're not, well I'm not sure about that. We'll never get rid of this virus so we have to decide how we are going to live with it for the rest of our lives. For the rest of our lives, right?

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 04:55 AM

We are in the same pickle here in Blighty as we were a year ago. Case numbers are going through the roof and hospitals are coming under pressure. It seems that as yet unvaccinated schoolchildren are the main drivers of this spike. The death rate is rising but, because of the vaccines, is only a small fraction of what it was last autumn. Like last year, voices abound, including many from in the NHS, which are trying to get the government to act immediately. Like last year, that isn't happening.

Well Johnson told us in July that there was no going back to the restrictions we endured last winter and spring. The big difference from last year is that we have most of the country vaccinated. I think we should push hard to get children vaccinated (via information and persuasion). I don't think we should reimpose *mandatory* bubbles, social distancing and masks. I think we should be organising a massive public campaign which tells people to get vaccinated and how to be careful in public places, and give us the full information about how the virus spreads, what the risks are, how we can protect the vulnerable and what we should do if we feel unwell. The lateral flow test kits are free, easy to get hold of and have been shown to be reliable. I've yet to see a public service ad on TV showing people how to use the kits. All that sort of thing. Ordering people to wear masks, to stay away from their loved ones' homes and cancelling Christmas simply won't wash again with the public. Compliance with the rules erodes away every time restrictions are imposed. They are no longer the way to get people onboard. Just for once I agree with the governments reluctance, but I have yet to see that huge public campaign that I believe would be by far the best way forward. We have to live with this virus for the rest of our lives and we do have to live those lives.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:10 AM

Its simple.
I have an old small pox scar so most of you don't have to have one.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:13 AM

Absolutely fascinating article on how the WHO and some scientists got how the virus spread wrong.

The 60-Year-Old Scientific Screwup That Helped Covid Kill

We know that scientists do get it wrong sometimes and the article shows that once it is wrong, it can be difficult to put right.

What must have happened, she thought, was that after Wells died, scientists inside the CDC conflated his observations. They plucked the size of the particle that transmits tuberculosis out of context, making 5 microns stand in for a general definition of airborne spread. Wells’ 100-micron threshold got left behind. “You can see that the idea of what is respirable, what stays airborne, and what is infectious are all being flattened into this 5-micron phenomenon,” Randall says. Over time, through blind repetition, the error sank deeper into the medical canon.

Once people admit they were wrong through things can be fixed.

ON FRIDAY, APRIL 30, the WHO quietly updated a page on its website. In a section on how the coronavirus gets transmitted, the text now states that the virus can spread via aerosols as well as larger droplets.

I am not qualified to assess the impact of this but I still find the study very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:44 AM

It's a good yarn, Dave, but it doesn't exactly tell us how our behaviour should be informed by the findings. We get a lot about stuff like her daughter at the gym, her floods of tears, dramatic wakenings, etc., instead. I was kind of waiting for the big denouement, i.e., WEAR A BLOODY MASK! ....but it never came...

Popular science often seems to talk down to people, thinking that they'll only pay attention if mucho colour is added. It's a shame, because it often means that the baby is thrown down the plug'ole with the bathwater...

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:49 AM

I quite enjoy the background stuff but then again, I'm a lightweight :-D

Maybe you can find the nitty-gritty by following a Google trail from her Wiki entry?

No good me looking. I'd fall off my chair after the first page!

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:55 AM

Husband has just done his lateral flow test (every Sunday and Wednesday) and thank God it's negative again. He has to do nine hours of heavy cleaning work during lesson-times and evenings at the high school, where all the pupils & teachers wear a mask. He's given a mask and a visor plus disposable rubber gloves to perform his work. Being BAME he is more vulnerable to Covid.
When he gets home, he showers and cleans himself, plus changes all his clothes.
I can't imagine how I'd feel if the poor chap had refused any vaccinations. But (thank God again!) he has had two AZ ones and awaits the booster shortly, as do I. Also, he's very determined to wear a disposable mask (as am I) when we go to the supermarket.
Now imagine if he was a refusenik anti-vaxxer, contracted the virus and generously passed it to me. I have a heart condition, am elderly and he could be the cause of my demise.
We both take this very seriously, and feel that everyone should be encouraged to accept the vaccine. And wear a mask. Or risk death after infecting other people.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:00 AM

I have absolutely no problem with people being *encouraged* to do anything, including wearing a mask. As I said, this thing is with us for the rest of our lives, and hands up all those who want to be hiding half their faces for the rest of their lives...

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:03 AM

With my face it may not be a bad thing...

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: gillymor
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:11 AM

The Washington State U. football coach along with 4 of his assistants was fired the other day for refusing to be vaccinated. He had a couple of months to do his research and, after dithering a bit, went for a religious exemption that was denied.

from the BBC

Pat Chun, the AD said "Our priority has been and will continue to be the health and well being of the young men in our team." It was obviously not the priority of their former coach. Let's hope this resonates with other non-vaxxers.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:30 AM

Republicans REJOICE ! Future cures and profits lift hearts.
A Florida man discovers that smoking crack cocaine cures Covid 19. He said "Its way better than Ivermectin". Miami Circuit Court Judge Yahwright did not order the man's Doctor to prescribe huge doses of Cocaine, unlike the Jacksonville judge who ordered Physicians to prescribe Ivermectin. I guess a JD outranks an MD. :^/
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/07/1034947315/ivermectin-ohio-hospital-order-judge

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 09:21 AM

A passing thought...
We as homo sapiens differ by a tenth to a hundredth of one degree and compared to Chimps differ by 1 full percent.
This not a scientific observation but I have a question that a diversty of 24% of us refusing vaccination has an effect on the species at large. Pandemics have changed us before in terms of those more suited for survival. 24% of us are not dying off but perhaps in a smaller way our DNA will have changes that would not appear without pandemic. Exogenetic factors could in be in play as well as ancient genes turning on or off. We are not seeing a subspecies going extinct but we may be changed in ways as a species we may not know.

26 million kids 5-11 in the US are to be vaccinated. A quarter of them will not get the shot as a result of parental opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:01 AM

While nearly all things are possible, a novelist would have to consider that in the unvaccinated ignorant population there is a possibility that they are more prone to evolutionary DNA responses to pandemic by factors previously mentioned. Yes instead of a curse there could be a blessing in refusing vaccine. No this is not ammunition for conspiracy theorists but is just a very remote possibility that an open mind could consider. Of course the cost is millions of needless deaths in the short run. Bottom line, it was just an interesting thought I hold in personal distain.

I'll get me 'over thinking it' hat.

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:27 AM

"We are talking about sticking needles into people, lest we forget"

But it's just a tiny prick.
So small and inconsequential most folks probably wouldn't even feel it going in, or being pulled back out.

It's not like you'd be having a giant dildo rammed up your arse without lubrication.
which is more like the scale of discomfort all this pathetic hysterical anti-needle whining conjurs up...

F@cking snowflakes...!!! [yes, us lefties can use that insulting word as well...]

.. and anyway, there are effective alternative injections in development and practice,
which don't use needles.

Ok, I'm a a bit squeamish about having blood samples taken.
But am never at all bothered by injections..

I'm a big brave boy...

Subject: RE: BS: New news on the pandemic COVID-19
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:33 AM

..and I do have an innate 'fear' of needles,
so far as I could never become a junkie...