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Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads

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Jim Carroll 24 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Starship 24 Mar 20 - 03:40 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 20 - 03:41 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Mar 20 - 03:49 PM
cnd 24 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 20 - 04:00 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 20 - 04:02 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 24 Mar 20 - 04:20 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 24 Mar 20 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,Starship 24 Mar 20 - 04:51 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Mar 20 - 04:52 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 03:29 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 04:22 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 25 Mar 20 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 10:25 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 02:01 PM
Steve Gardham 25 Mar 20 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Starship 25 Mar 20 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Mar 20 - 03:47 PM
Steve Gardham 25 Mar 20 - 06:32 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 04:15 AM
cnd 26 Mar 20 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 09:21 AM
cnd 26 Mar 20 - 02:58 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Mar 20 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,julia L 26 Mar 20 - 04:56 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Mar 20 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Mar 20 - 03:01 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM

Wonder of anybody can help
I'm assembling as many Traditional Irish versions of Child Ballads as I can find, I wonder can anyone help (ongoing)
I'm doing far better than I could have expected, but am encountering problems regarding some versions taken from Ireland to Canada and America, mainly in the period after The Famine (latter half of 19th century)
In his JAF article, 'Irish, Come-All-Ye's, Phillips Barry refers to a version of CAPTAIN WARD and the RAINBOW, (it may not be from America)
Does anybody know where it is to be found ?
Help very much appreciated
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:40 PM

Is the following of any help to you??

https://www.jstor.org/stable/534862?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:41 PM

There is a version in Duncan Emrich's 'Folklore on the American Land', p475, which is taken from Barry et al's 'British Ballads from Maine' p348, which I don't have a copy of. Emrich doesn't give the ultimate source of the version unfortunately. Joe or Jon or somebody yonside might have a copy and could check.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:49 PM

Thanks both
Yes -extremely helpful
Got British Ballads from Maine which I'll check later Stece, but I don't remember an Irish version of Captain Ward in - plenty of other Irish Cild ballads that - a goldmine (wish our first edition wasn't crumbling though
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: cnd
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM

From The Irish Traditional Music Archive, you can view a copy of sheet music from Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:00 PM

You've probably already spotted that Barry was referring to a copy of the tune in Petrie. See p378.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:02 PM

In the JAFL article flagged up by Starship of course.

Thanks, Starship. I hadn't got that article. Some interesting snippets other than the Child Ballads.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:20 PM

Jim - if that's the reference in the footnote p378, he says it's a tune from P. W. Joyce's Old Irish Folk-Music.


Roud says there's a text from Barry in JAF 18 (1905) under the title Strike up you brave and lusty gallants, with music sound of drum though the index gives no source.


Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:21 PM

Sorry - cross posted with lots of you - there's was only Jim's post when I started looking!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:51 PM

I'm pretty sure that Google gives different results to people depending on where they are located, so it's good to have people from all over everywhere looking for the same thing. Besides, y'all know your stuff and I don't, so I have to get lucky.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:52 PM

Well spotted, Mick. Mia culpa. yes it's Joyce, Petrie was the ref for some others before that.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:29 AM

Thanks folks, delighted as ever with the responses
Thanks for the Broadside CND (wonder if I ever met you on a march :-) Haven't had time to get to ITMA yet
Can I just say where I'm at at present
I started off with Tom Munnelly's list of 50 Irish Child ballads (I'll pass that on to whoever wants it) - I managed to find sound examples (from source singers) of all but two, for which I am awaiting the Folklore Department's promise to fill the gaps
I then began to look elsewhere and immediately added another dozen from Ireland - Bronson, Sam Henry and Child mainly
Then I started to explore the US, Canadian collections, and pushed the total up further - New England and Newfoundland have been incredible so far   
I was about to leave it there when I decided to include all the versions I could find rather than single examples of each ballad
We attended a lecture on a early 19th century piper by Jimmy Moran O'Brien last year and he said, "did you now there are ballad tunes in some of the old piping Ms books?"
It seems this project is as long as I can manage to take it before the Dreaded Lurgi strikes us all down

At persent I am trying to identify the Irish singers in Karpeles', Creighton, Fowke, Peacock, and particularly H.H. Flanders and 'British Ballads from Maine'
I looked in the latter last night (thanks again Steve) - there are four 'Captain Wards', none are clearly given an Irish source, but a couple might have been - I'm not sure if there is any way of checking

I wonder if any of you know about Ben Henneberry ?
He was of Irish stock and sings superb ballads, including a 'False Knight on the Road' which he got from his Irish father - I'm wondering how many other of his ballads came from that source
Karpeles describes "remote Irish communities like Stock Cove' in Newfoundland from which she recorded songs; she says most of her singers were Irish but in some cases she doesn't say which

Anybody interested will be welcome to the results of all this when it is finished, of course - that's what it's about
Thanks again
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 04:22 AM

I meant to add that I have a large number of ballads from print, mostly with tunes
A number of singer friends have agreed to sing them for me, John Tunney, Jerry O'Hanlon, Maurice Leyden, Jane Cassidy and Roisín White, among others
Roisín has agreed to read the music for me
Jerry has already made me a spectacular recording of 'Hind Horn' which I was able to use as an example at the Belfast T.S.F. conference talk I gave last year
I hope to get this done to everything I find in order to promote the ballads among singers here

This was largely inspired by a project run by Wexford couple, Mick Fortune and Aileen Lambert, Man, Women and Child'
With the support of 'The National Library of Ireland' they put on a series of short, daytime concerts of Child Ballads throughout the country
In no time, you were hearing ballads sung in sessions, song circles and festivals
Hopefully I can add to their achievements - thanks Mick and Aileen
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:27 AM

Jim

Here's a list of Child ballads collected from Ben Henneberry from the Roud Index: Ben Henneberry Child Ballads. There are 38 entries in the index, some of them are duplicate ballads, but at a quick eye-scan of the results I'd say about a dozen ballads are represented.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:47 AM

Thanks Mick, I think I have most, but it's handy to be able to check
There are a few interesting articles about him available on line
I have to say I was staggered at the number of Irish versions of Robin Hood ballads there were
Also, I still can't get over 'The Broom of Cowdenknowes' turning up in New England
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 08:06 AM

http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/case-study-of-ben-henneberry.aspx

Regarding Ben Henneberry, . . .


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM

Thanks - your a star- star
That's in incredibly usable site - texts and all - it'll save me hours
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 09:53 AM

Jim, I don't know whether you have heard the following. It's sung by Edmund Henneberry, Ben Henneberry's son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onoGnLHvkjQ

Be sure to read the stuff that's on the page (just below the video screen).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 10:15 AM

I haven't, but it's remarkably like his father's singing and the accompaniment is very like that of (Kenneth?) Faulkner's on the Creighton recording
Very impressive
Henneberry senior described how, in Ireland, his father 'stepped out' the chorus of the ballad while playing the fiddle
Thanks a million
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 10:25 AM

No thanks necessary, Jim. This is truly interesting. Is there something you'd like 'looked for' that you may not have the time for?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM

Not so much that I haven't time for (plenty of that at present but having no qualifications I find it difficult to get access to academic institutions - there are several in Nova Scotia
The Barry papers would also be a great help if they are on line
The limited information on Fowke's singers is driving me up the wall
That's the sot of thing I don't have the skills for
I started off this with a query about Henry Martin - I have a great text from Fr Ranson's Songs of the Wexford Coast but no tune - I don't think he collected any

I don't wish to impose on anybody, but if anyone wishes to join in this they are welcome to
This really is Mudcat as its best
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:56 PM

http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/phillips-barry-1880-1937.aspx

Phillips Barry discussed there. I realize that is a repeat of the Bluegrass Messengers site, but perhaps you`ve not encountered it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:01 PM

Also, probably one of the better sites to do with Newfoundland is GEST (which I think is based at Memorial University in Nfld). Here`s a link:

http://gestsongs.com/


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:09 PM

That's one amazing site
I have dipped into it before when searching for something specific but have never followed it though in depth - I will do now
Thanks again
I don't know if you are aware of our pretty extensive archive - accumulated for our singers workshop over about forty years now
I was archivist but now the worksop is defunct, I'm passing on everything we have in digitised form via PCloud
If you'd like to bee linked to it, I'll need an e-mail address
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM

Edith Fowke`s work is somewhat more difficult to track down, mostly because it`s archived in many places. The following link is a place to start, and please note that the link address shown in the page still works, but you`ll need to highlight it then go there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:19 PM

Shazpot. Here`s the site:

https://www.archeion.ca/edith-fowke-collection


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM

Regarding Fowke:

`As far as I can tell so far, there are three places where material relating to Edith can be found: the Canadian Museum of Civilisation in Hull, Quebec; York University in Toronto; and the University of Calgary.`

That`s from Google and appears to be from someone at Athabasca University in Alberta. Also, Hull (Quebec) is now merged with Gatineau. That happened near the turn of this century.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:52 PM

Once again - in your debt
"Yor blood's worth bottlin'" as they say in Dublin
I'll see if I can work may way through it _ I take it these sites aren't manned during the crisis
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:01 PM

I was just on the U of Calgary's page and started something called a web chat--looks like a live email thingy--but no one responded. Struck me that all of Canada's schools from kindergarten through universities are closed due to Covid-19 virus. That said, I shall get in touch with the three archive repositories soon as things are open and happening again. Expecting that that will be at least mid-April. But I'll keep looking anyway.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:10 PM

Best of luck with all of this. I'll chip in where and when I can. Jim, have you got a full set of JFSS? I have if needed and I'll have a quick check. I know there are some in there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:45 PM

Got all the Journals up to 2011 - foud myslf with not enough time to read them after that
Thanks for asking
If I've misssed something I'd be grateful for a heads up though
Our archive includes a massive collection of early books and journals which I will make available for download via PCloud if people ask - but I'm not sure how long I can leave them up considering the space they require
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:19 PM

"Without going in person to Calgary it is possible to
get some sense of what is in part of the fonds
Fowke, although you cannot get a listing of
everything. Use your web browser to reach the U.
of C. website, and then locate Special Collections
in the MacKimmie Library. This may seem easier
said than done, but with persistence you will find it.
Once there, click on the Richard Johnston
Collection (the music archives). The Fowke
collection is a sub-set of this."

That's from the U of Calgary site. I'm putting it here in case I can't locate it again.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:47 PM

Thanks - I'll try it tomorrow
Crappy black and white b-films beckon
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 06:32 PM

Journals
10 p12 The Elfin Knight
56. p96 has Cecilia Costello's Lover's Ghost, Cruel Mother and Sir Hugh
58 p239 has Lowlands of Holland and Captain Wedderburn
59 p16 has Lady Margaret, Lass of Loch Royal, Lord Beicham, Elfin Knight and Farmer's Curst Wife.


Oh and Vol 3 pt 1 (1975) has among other Irish material an article at p31 by somebody called Jim Carroll.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:15 AM

"an article at p31 by somebody called Jim Carroll."
Wish you hadn't drawn attention to that Steve - I'm not proud of it - too early with too little experience
Much better in that edition are the ones by Tom Munnelly and Peter Hall
Thanks for the rest - I'll go through them when I wake up
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: cnd
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:42 AM

Jim, always glad to help!

Unfortunately, I think you may not have met me on a march. I live stateside and haven't been involved in too many marches.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 09:21 AM

It's the CND that did it
You may not know that stands for Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament a Britain wide movement which dominated politics in the early sixties and organised huge marches from The Neclear Weapons center at Aldermaston in Berkshire to London in order to stop their proliferation
Those of us who were on them are proud to have been there and have ffond memories of very sore feet - long marches
The ballad project moves on apace at the moment - more ballads in the offing
Thanks again,
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: cnd
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:58 PM

Ah, that makes much more sense. Sadly, I can't say I helped with any of those marches; "CND" comes from a sort of abbreviation of parts of my name.

I found this, which I'm not sure if you've seen or not.

"Saucy Ward, a version of Captain Ward and the Rainbow (Child 287) recorded in Wexford and published by Joseph Ranson, C.C. in Songs of the Wexford Coast, Enniscorthy 1948, (reprinted Norwood, Pennsylvania 1973), 49-50. The edition of Francis James Child's The English and Scottish Popular Ballads."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/20522156.pdf?ab_segments=0%252Fbasic_SYC-5055%252Ftest&refreqid=excelsior%3Aeab11a79a5734e0c8d498bf1129cde8e, p. 14 on PDF (42 of journal)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:03 PM

I have the Ranson version thanks, unfortunately it comes without a tune, though a friend in Dublin has found me an excellent alternative from Inishowen that will suit perfectly - I'll use that and make a note that I have if another doesn't turn up
Thanks also for the article, which I'd forgotten
The authour, Tom Munnelly was a dear friend and drinking mate who shared my love of ballads - his earlier work inspired this project
In the article he tells of the blind storyteller, Hnery Blake, who lived on the southernmost coast of this county overlooking the mouth of the Shannon
Blake described how, as a young man, he sat on his chair in the garden on a summer evening listening to the sailors going past on the sailing ships singing their shanties as they headed off to sea - some memory
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: GUEST,julia L
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:56 PM

I have a whole file on Captain Ward extracted from Maine & New England sources. Happy to share but too much for here. Will send to you Jim via email
cheers- Julia


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:36 AM

Thanks Julia
Nice to hear from you again
Maine and New England has proved one on my richest sources so far and Mrs Ellen Sullivan holds the record among source singers to date of having the largest repertoire of Child Ballads from Ireland
Look forward to your information
Jim


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:01 AM

Ref


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:00 AM

Jim,
I'm pretty sure you will already have done this but just in case, going right through Bronson would help, and keeping an eye out for any Irish names at the same time. If you find any then you can go back to the original publication and see if it mentions the singer's ancestry.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Irish versions of Child Ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:15 AM

Thanks Steve
I've combed Bronson and Child thoroughly with some excellent and surprising results
I'l lucky enough to have digitised copies of both wih helps to digitally search
Mike Yates has just added one from the US which wasn't listed as being Irish but I'm pretty sure is Thanks for your attention - and the responses from everybody else which are still streadily coming in
I'm now approaching 'locked-down' Irish singer friends to sing some of the printed versions -talk about taking advantage of the afflicted!!
Jim


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