Ewan MacColl

Subject: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:43 AM

Does anyone know why he adopted a stage name

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:15 AM

For christ sake Dick - buy the book and go and ask Robert Zimmermann the same (or look up his MI5 record)

Ewan was the most innovative creative artist on the folk scene with a lifetime's work of examining fol song, it's relevance as a progressive thinker and its technique as a performer
He did this with others and, between them, produced a body of work wich offered the possibility of the most inexperienced of us improving our singing - nobody else on the scene came anywhere near to wanting to do that
The fact that we've never been able to get past 'name change' and urban legends that are supposed to have taken place three quarters of a century ago a century ago says what needs to be said about the state of folk song
These records are really scratched beyond playing

For the record, my father found himself in a similar position to Ewan when he returned from Spain - a young man with a good brain and a promising future, he was hounded by the authorities and blacklisted from work - he didn't change his name - he became a navvy
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:42 AM

Why did he adopt a stage name?
I am aware of how he helped others, and I booked both of them at a folk club and did a support for them.
WIKI In 1946 members of Theatre Union and others formed Theatre Workshop and spent the next few years touring, mostly in the north of England. In 1945, Miller changed his name to Ewan MacColl (influenced by the Lallans movement in Scotland)
So it might appear it was more to do with his career as a playright than as a singer?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:44 AM

He was a very influential person on the uk folk scene, so any first hand info on him is of interest to me, did he ever discuss it with you ,jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 03:55 AM

Sorry Dick - this one's really talked to death and I have no intention of covering it again
Why ask - would you ask Cary Grant ot Judy Garland or Bob Dylan or Johnny Handle..... or the man other artists who cnaged their manes why ?
Ewan was more importantt to our music than all of them yet we never seem to rise above that level
In a way, my first posting said clearly enough why he changed it - that really should be enough but I'm sure some people will make sure it isn't
Your a singer - why not get a discussion on his ideas on singing - I'll be over the moon to contribute to that
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:10 AM

I think what Jim is studiously avoiding, is that like others he thought that a name change might be a good career move. In his case it was partially successful.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 04:18 AM

"he thought that a name change might be a good career move"
This is exactly the vindictive remark that confirms those discussions are pointless
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 05:49 AM

MacColl was a professional actor and singer. It’s very common for professional entertainers to change their names - nobody berates Reg Dwight or Maurice Micklewhite for changing their names, why pick on James Miller for doing the very same thing?

Other than to cause mischief here, of course.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:00 AM

Maybe the name Jimmy or James Miller was already registered to another actor?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:02 AM

or the man other artists who cnaged their manes

Clearly, all these artists were the lions of their professions! ☺

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:03 AM

Must be that time of year again.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:03 AM

Aaaaargh!

Regards (I think...)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:04 AM

Backwoodsmans, far be it from me to attempt to rattle Jim's cage, I was simple answering the query posed by Sandman. It is quite unusual in traditional music circles.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:29 AM

But McColl/Miller was an actor before he came to prominence as a folk singer, and it is not at all unusual in acting circles to adopt a stage name. And whilst it is more unusual in folk music, it is not unknown - I know at least two (Hilary James and Jo Freya) who changed their surnames for Equity reasons, and there are probably others - we wouldn't necessarily know unless someone did it after they had already become established under their original name.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:38 AM

The leading 'folkie" (so called) on the scene has used a pseudonym without comment since his appearance
I have yet to see a discussion on Robert Zimmerman which seeks to denigrate what he does as an artist
It's always amused me that some of the loudest Bobby-Bleaters are the first ones up to throw name-change at MacColl
I was amused once when even arl Dallas joined in the kicking in 'The Living Tradition' - I remember Karl is the early days when he was part of the Duo Fred and Betty Dallas - not important - just amusing
I don't give a toss about any of this other than object to not being able to discuss the unique and very usabley body of work Ewan left behind that we are unable to discuss because of this anti-fanzine froth
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 06:55 AM

Hey Hey! I'll get the popcorn

He changed his name because he was in the field of entertainment and considered himself a playwright and actor. An ethnic sounding name was more exotic.

Nothing against him at all for this and unlike some on here who like to second guess his actions and reasoning on any subject, he spoke often and openly that it was for artistic reasons on line with many others. The reason this upsets people is that he was quick to scold anyone performing outside of what he considered their indigenous musical heritage. This didn't go down well with singers who wondered why his strange complaint never applied to himself.

The name also helped when he pretended to sound Scottish.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 07:41 AM

Robert Zimmerman has never given the impression that his heart lies in Traditional music. He is first and foremost a lyricist who used tradition material to further a successful career in popular music.
When he was the subject of a musical indoctrination by Pete Seeger and others, into the use of traditional music and personal popularity for political purposes, he immediately rebelled.
MaCColl was like many in the later portion of this genre a frustrated hard left ideologist.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM

"The name also helped when he pretended to sound Scottish."
Sigh......
His parent were newly come down Scots, he was surrounded by Scots fiends and neighbours who taught him Scots songs he was as Scots as anybody with parents from Ireland living in Britain were British/Irish
s it jealousy at MacColl' enormous talent which causes this small mindedness towards a three-decades dead world-respected artist ?
No wonder the folk scene is such a fuck-up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM

Johnny Handle changed his name

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:26 AM

"Johnny Handle changed his name"
It doesn't matter Dick
What does matter is this ritual display of necrophilia by people who really should be intelligent and sensitive enough to know better
About five years ago Peggy, in a letter to The Living Tradition, made the point perfectly - "Ewan is long dead and no longer in a position to defend himself - he was generous and approachable towards everybody who asked his advice and he enjoyed the company of those who shared his love of the music he dedicated his life to - If you didn't like him, at least let him rest in peace"
I knew Ewan well enough to now that to be a fact - I was one of the recipients of his generosity
It makes me laugh to remember that the subject of the other thread, Bob Davenport, was one of Ewan's greatest knockers in public.
When Bert and Ewan called a meeting in London in the mid 60s to attempt to unite the various folk-faction Bob wrecked it by shouting down everybody who spoke - fellow speakers and audience - I have a recording of that meeting so I know that to be a fact
If Ewan had behaved in that way towards his fellow folk-lovers a fraction as badly as that he perhaps would have deserved some of the nastiness that still hangs over the ageing folk scene thirty years after his death
He didn't
I now live in Ireland where Ewan's work is treated with respect by most
Would that an ailing folk scene in Britain took a leaf out of their book and behaved like adults
Maybe then folk music might have the at least the two generation future Irish traditional music has now been more-or-less guaranteed
Nuff sed - I told you this thread had no useful purpose Dick - it's not even original
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:28 AM

I should have written Necrophobia - of course - put it down to my depression
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:29 AM

jim, you have not been paying attention, i have criticsed a couple of dylan songs in the past hattie carroll ,ballad in plain d, farewell angelina and also praised masters of war
balladin plain d is very poorI once loved a girl, her skin it was bronze
With the innocence of a lamb, she was gentle like a fawn
I courted her proudly but now she is gone
Gone as the season she's taken
In a young summer's youth, I stole her away
From her mother and sister, though close did they stay
Each one of them suffering from the failures of their day
With strings of guilt they tried hard to guide us
Of the two sisters, I loved the young
With sensitive instincts, she was the creative one
The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone
By the jealousy of others around her
For her parasite sister, I had no respect
Bound by her boredom, her pride to protect
Countless visions of the other she'd reflect
As a crutch for her scenes and her society
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused
The changes I was going through can't even be used
For the lies that I told her in hopes not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime
With unseen consciousness, I possessed in my grip
A magnificent mantelpiece, though its heart being chipped
Noticing not that I'd already slipped
To the sin of love's false security
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
'Till the tombstones of damage read me no questions but, "Please
What's wrong and what's exactly the matter?"
And so it did happen like it could have been foreseen
The timeless explosion of fantasy's dream
At the peak of the night, the king and the queen
Tumbled all down into pieces
"The tragic figure!" her sister did shout
"Leave her alone, god damn you, get out!"
And I in my armor, turning about
And nailing her in the ruins of her pettiness
Beneath a bare light bulb the plaster did pound
Her sister and I in a screaming battleground
And she in between, the victim of sound
Soon shattered as a child to the shadows
All is gone, all is gone, admit it, take flight
I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight
My mind it was mangled, I ran into the night
Leaving all of love's ashes behind me
The wind knocks my window, the room it is wet
The words to say I'm sorry, I haven't found yet
I think of her often and hope whoever she's met
Will be fully aware of how precious she is
Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Source: LyricFind

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:38 AM

"jim, you have not been paying attention, "
I wan't referring to you Dick - hastily grabbed cut 'n pastes are meaningless
You want to undo some of the damage, try discussing the work Ewan left behind him
Much more satisfying and useful - take my word for it
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 08:49 AM

Why did The Sandman change his name from Good Soldier Schweik?
Why did Good Soldier Schweik change his name from Captain Birdseye?
Why are any of these noms de plume used instead of the OP's given name?


Why? OH WHY? OH WHY is anyone responding to a post that was clearly made to cause a fight? Dick, have you nothing better to do with your time during lockdown?

DC

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:10 AM

In fairness Doug - Dick entitled this thread openly enough to allow a wide range of discussion
I would hate to see another thread on Ewan closed because of less-than intelligent responses - there are far too many no go areas on this forum as it is

In answer to your question - Dick changed his mane to The Good Soldier Schweik after I'm mentioned that that was my favourite book of all time - it still is
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:13 AM

Jim has made nine posts (about a third) of all to this thread, but he seems to not think it's worth discussing. And people wonder why we have a troll problem here. (If they aren't just sitting back and enjoying the stupidity.)

And haven't there been thread(s) on this before?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Terrence Murphy
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM

Good man Jim Carroll!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:48 AM

Personally, I think Mr Miller was a superior lyricist to Mr Zimmerman, but his ideas carried substantially less weight with the public in general. I also think a discussion on this subject is perfectly valid and could never be described as "grave walking". Trolls here are more heavily disguised than most folks realise

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM

"but he seems to not think it's worth discussing. "
No Jeri - I don't, but I think this aspect needs putting to bed once and for all, espacialliy as it was one of your number who prevented an intelligent discussion of MacColl as an artist last time - he'd rather discuss MacColl's sixty year old politics and I was suspended for trying to discuss his contribution to music
There have been far too many threads on MacColl's name change and his politics
It's about time we were permitted to discussi him as a creative artist, doncha think ?
If MacColl's politics are more important, perhaps that should go below the line
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM

doug chadwick . i spend most of the day sitting in the sunshine singning songs, anyway who is doug chadwick does he really exist
Ewan wrote some very good songs my old man ,manchester rambler, in my oopinion are ecellent the we havefreeborn man. thirty foot trailer excellent

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 10:48 AM

jim what do you think is Ewans finest song

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:06 AM

Varies Dick, depending on the mood I'm in - he wrote over three hundred - far too many to have a favourite on
My dad was a navvy and fairly late in life I started to sing the songs he wrote for the film, The Irishmen, which was never released, because they coincided with my Dad's description of life on the road
Around here in Clare, 'The Rambler From Clare' always goes down a bomb - not because of its title but because so many of the men worked as MacAlpine's Fusiliers in Britain
The other one is 'Tenant Farmer' because it rings a bell with the local farmers
Ewan's best songs, in my opinion, were those he made by interviewing the road workers, fishermen and Travellers - he had a good ear for picking up speech patterns
All this is my opinion, o course, it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same thing
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: RTim
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:21 AM

This will NOT end well.....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:38 AM

the rambler from clare ?are their two songs this is the one i am acquainted with
Well the first of my fortunes that ever was known,
I straight took my way to the County Tyrone
Where among the pretty fair maids they used me well there,
And they called me the stranger and the Rambler from Clare.

That’s when I enlisted in the town of Fermoy,
But with so many masters I could not comply;
I deserted next morning, the truth I declare,
And for Limerick Town went the Rambler from Clare.

I then took my way to the town of Tralee
Where I fell to courting sweet Sally McGee;
First I won her favour, then I left her there.
Now they too are searching for the Rambler from Clare.

But like a deserter my case I bewail.
I was captured and taken in the town of Rathkail,
Then to army headquarters I had to repair,
And in the black-hole lay the Rambler from Clare.

Well, I took off my cap and I made a low bow
In hopes that my colonel would pardon me now.
But the pardon he gave me was harsh and severe,
'Twas, “Bind him, confine him, he’s the Rambler from Clare.”

Oh, my poor aged mother the tears filled her eyes
And likewise my brothers, their shouts reached the skies;
But “Brave boys,” said my father, “Your arms now prepare
And bring home my darlin’ the Rambler from Clare.”

They assembled together in a harmonious throng
With their guns on their shoulders determined and strong.
Then their firing began, and I vow and declare,
They burst the jail doors and freed the Rambler from Clare.

We then marched along to the Barony of Forth
Where some of our heroes had camped long before;
We prepared to do battle, and the truth I declare,
Their chief commander was the Rambler from Clare.

But now I’ve the title of a United Man
So I cannot stay here in my own native land;
So off to Americay I must repair
And leave all my friends in the sweet County Clare.

Farewell to my comrades wherever ye be,
Likewise to my darlin’ sweet Sally McGee;
Our ship it is ready, the wind it blows fair.
“Oh, he’s gone, joy be with him, he’s the Rambler from Clare.”
or this
I am a young fellow that's very well known,
I've wandered throughout Ireland, the County Tyrone.
For work I've been searching, through Cork and Kildare,
but there's never the job for the rambler from Clare.

I've been throughout Ireland with no brogues on my feet,
I was stranded in Sligo with nothing to eat.
So in desperation, I borrowed my fare
and said goodbye to Ireland from the Rambler from Clare.

On the boat leaving Ireland I went to the bar,
where a big red-faced agent stood me a jar.
He said up in Scotland, they're building dams there
and there's plenty of work for the Rambler from Clare.

I went to Auk Island and dug a big hole,
it was half a mile dep and I felt like a mole.
It held ten million gallons of water I swear
and most of it sweat from the Rambler from Clare.

They say that my equal was never to be seen,
they called me the Horse and the Digging Machine.
The gangermen all loved me and the agents did swear,
you'll not see the end of the Rambler from Clare.

But now I am old and my fire has gone cold,
in another foue years I'll be fifty years old.
All worn out and finished but what do they care,
they've had all they want from the Rambler from Clare.

Yes, they've had all they want from the Rambler from Clare.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:55 AM

For a long time, I was a school teacher - it is almost always the case that those who dismiss the work and character of a person of achievement are those who have little of their own to offer. Also, it is very easy, from a position of doing little or nothing to pick on those who have achieved.

It is the same with empty vessels.

For heaven's sake, Jim, you've better do do and more to offer than to be riled by people whose only disposition is to be spiteful. Besides, Jimmy Miller, Ewan MacColl does not need your defence against such people; his legacy will stand or fall on its merits - as will theirs. Time will tell - I think it already has!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:14 PM

Thanks John
I realise that but I'm pretty determined to share some of the work we did with the Critics Group as I believe it might help to improve the singing scene
It seems the only way to do that is to lay this particular ghost once and for all - lets see

While I have your ear - I don't know if your interest extends to American field recordings but I'm distributing a large number of albums with notes to a couple of friends via PCloud - some of them are gems
If your interested, help yourself
I think you may already have a link to my 'Share' folder but if not, I'll send it (they're in the American recordings' file)
I'll leave them up for about a week
Hope you and R are surviving cabin fever (give her our regards)
Best to you both from me and Pat - stay well
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: meself
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:41 PM

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch about this? "I came here for an argument!"

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:43 PM

No there wasn't :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Brimbacombe
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 01:04 PM

John Moulden: I don't wish to open wounds on Ewan McColl or criticise him - his contribution to the music we love is vast and something we should all be grateful for. But surely with these giants - for that is what McColl is - such debate, such wanting a fuller picture is only natural, only healthy? I know there has been some unnecessary chipping at him on here, but there is also a lot of wanting to get a more rounded picture of the man. You get this with such large characters in all arenas - the likes of Winston Churchill in politics, Brian Clough in football, etc... No one is entirely good or without fault, and in discussing the faults along with the good are we not just engaging in honest debate/conversation?

As I say, this is a more general point rather than one relating to McColl. I love hearing Jim's recollections of the great man, but I do think discussing his flaws can be legitimate, if it is a genuine attempt for those who were more distant from him to get a more rounded picture of such a great figure. There's a balance there, I get that, and different people will have different beliefs as to where that balance lies. But we all have our flaws. We've all done things that are regrettable. That McColl's are still deemed relevant or noteworthy only reflects his stature in my mind. I don't think that all those discussing McColl along these lines are "dismissing the work and character of a person of achievement". How could anyone dismiss his work? For some it's as much a case of getting a fuller picture of a man they respect. If we canonise these people and wash away aspects of their character, aren't we doing them a disservice in a way?

Anyway, I'll just get back to reading stuff on here, and I will just take this opportunity to thank those such as Jim who bring such great figures such as Ewan McColl to life on these pages. This post was meant in good faith. I do hope it is taken as so.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 01:40 PM

Thanks Brimbacombe I go along with all that (Except Brian Robson - surely you meant Alf Ramsey)
Yes yes yes - I think it vital to discuss his faults - with trepidation I covered a few when I spoke at his 70th Birthday knees-up at County Hall.
I wasn't worried at Ewan's reception of what I said, I always found him a bit of a pussy-cat when I didn't agree with something - it was a question of whether that was the right place, but as my subject was the work of The Critics Group I bit the bullet and pushed on - no problem
Ewan was quite a strong self-critic; when I first stayed with them he told me he couldn't bear to listen to his early recordings - I'd only met him a month before
I recently indexed one of the last Critics Group meetings where he spent most of the evening explaining to the group that he believed he'd been too heavy handed and unapproachable at times, and all the other balls-ups he beleivd he'd made - I hadn't been a member to long enough to have experienced that, but I know it to be a fact having worked on the recordings at length now
With me he was ok - I argued with him a lot over his antediluvian politics - no problem
His tendency was to 'agree to disagree' but if he subject came up again, he'd obviously taken in some of what I'd said (my father was the same - same generation of political activists)
I believe Ewan to be sometimes insecure of his ability and a little nervous of academics - when you got to now him you saw a lot of the Salford lad still there - but he was one of the best listeners I ever new

My real problem is with the superficiality of the attacks on him, especially when it didn't reflect the Ewan I knew (war record and name change tend to rile me the most)

The Critics Group was a pioneering body - an experiment
It worked on a suck-it-and- see basis and made mistakes as all pioneers, but it was structured to revisit those mistakes so they didn't happen again - hopefully
I thought that, all in all it did a bloody good job
Thanks for your input
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 01:43 PM

JohnMoulden, i do not see any nastiness about Ewan so far, it is perfectly legitimate to ask about his stage name just as is to discuss his songs, there is no need for anybody including Jim to have to be on the defensive , if he was not important we would not be discussing him. in my opinion he is a very important and controversial person in the uk folk revival, that makes him his work and his performances intereting to discuss ,in my opinion more important than anyone else

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:28 PM

No point i talking to John - I think he's said what he wanted to say
You many not see any nastiness - I do Im afraid
Ewan's stage name (which it wasn't, of course) has been talked to death at the expense of talking about the things about him that matter - that's more than nasty - it's obstructive to the point of being destructive
I think you'll find that most people who knew him didn't find him "controversial" unless you consider honestly speaking your mind controversial - he certainly did that I'm pleased to say
Let's leave it there and remain friends eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM

With friends like you, who needs enemies. A cursory glance at your last few posts on the UK politics thread should clarify what sort of creature you are.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

Your language and lack of argument precludes the need for response Ake
My penultimate post laid out how we worked, which obviousness doesn't interest you
I put up Ewan's widow's appeal again - that obviously doesn't interest you
I put up mu desire to share Ewan's and our work with others - that doesn't interest you
What does interest you exactly - obviously not discussing the performance of folk song
My language on occasion may have been strong, but certainly no stronger than the bizzare custom of regularly digging up a thirty year dead singer in order to denigrate him again
What sort of creature does that ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:07 AM

Sigh.. back at you Jim.

His Mancunian accent seemed to disappear as his new name took hold. Some early Theatre Workshop recordings of him speaking are there to hear. Full stop.

His father may have had an accent and this may have helped him use one in later life but to suggest he ever had a Scottish accent until he used it as part of his MacColl act is ludicrous. He did manage to keep it up without the mask slipping too often though....

He was a bit of a genius, although like all such people, had anther genius alongside him to complete the picture. That doesn't make him some sort of authentic figure. He was in show business and projected his act. Your insistence that it was anything else is what makes people poke fun at you, and that's a shame considering your life work since putting down the wire strippers.

Anyway, the "folk scene" isn't a fuck up. At least, it started improving once oddballs stopped gracing it with their presence, eh?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery)
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:12 AM

OH! FOR GODS SAKE YOU TWO JUST STOP IT AND GROW UP !!!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

It isn't coffin kicking or "digging up" a dead singer. It says in the excellent biography by Ben Harker that he was cremated. So it should be "ash agitating' or some such if an alliterative punch line is required.

Also I listened to about half of 'The Big Hewer' and did not much like it except for the bits where the miners talked. MacColl has this very odd way of improvising round melodies which might have resulted from the application of techniques devised on an analogy with movement in acting. There is bonkers banjo music all through it. If you want an effective song with the word 'down' in, I recommend Ry Cooder and friends 'Down in Mississippi'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXKQlCQKtIg

Ben Harker has some incisive comments on aspects of the lyrics to the MacColl song in an early book on pop music.

Peggy Seeger is more than just Ewan MacColl's widow, as she is unfortunately characterised above. She is in a new relationship now, and has to that extent moved on. I don't care much what she may have said at some point in the past about people criticising him after he was dead. Repeating it over and over isn't for me particularly persuasive.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:54 AM

Many years ago I went to a series of workshops in psychosynthesis and the facilitator explained that she had changed her name as she changed her name as she felt she could indemnify with the name she chose for herself, rather than the name that was chosen for her.

Can't we just agree on the right of the individual to be who they want to be, and in the end it is the individual's own business, not ours.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:59 AM

"Peggy Seeger is more than just Ewan MacColl's widow"
Of course she is but her appeal was made as just that which is why I broke the habit of a lifetime to refer to her as such - that's not usually what I do
Peggy does have a new partner but she cerytainly hasn't moved on - she has incorporated her new life int what she gor by working with Ewan anfd the Critics
I know this as a fact as I visited and interviewed her a few years ago when we helped make a two hour long programme tribute to Ewan on his centenary   
We met a couple of times before and since and have ben in correspondence regarding the work we are doing on Ewan and the Critics - she remains as dedicated as she ever was
Grandfather-suck eggs and all that

This is and always been a case of digging up someone - had it been a critical discussion of his work I would have welcomed it with open arms
The Radio Ballads - The Big Hewer among the foremost introduced the voice of working people to the wide public in a way no other media production had or has since
They were powerful statmants of identity by the communities cand groups covered and that was their value
That they produced songs that have become world-wide classic cs was an added bonus, especially those about Travellers which were absorbed into their communities
Your views on them are no more than your views
Ben Harker's input on The Radio Ballads made little impact, as far as I'm concerned - the best work by far on them was 'Set into Song' by Peter Cook
Bonker's bajo music - are you sure you are not talking about John Axon which was a toe dip into the series and largely jazz based - nevertheless it was that one that took the world by storm
The Later ones became Italia prize entries and one a winner
The most powerful one, The Travelling People was so successful in its objective of exposing the prejudice towards and the hardship of the people it covered that it frightened the Establisment orientated BBC into abandoning the series and eventually ridding itself of "this turbulent director' the principled and dedicated sound-genius Charlie Parker
When the programme was finished the Beeb in their wisdom, demanded that the "exterminate the impossibles" statement be removed - the team refused and it was left in - the series expanded with a bang, but the Travellers were left with improved condidtions because of the contribution the Travelling People made to the campaign to get a better deal for them
You prefer Ry Cooders clever-clever tricksiness - your taste - I prefer my songs where the accompaniment accompanies, leaving the words to speak for themselves

You don't need to sprint to an 'expert' to learn how good the Radio Ballads were - listen to them with an open mind
I hope this apect of the discussion can now be put to bed and we can get down to discussing Ewan as an artist who preferred so share his researches and abilities rather than sell them - that's the Ewan I knew and still respect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl
From: Brian May
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 12:22 PM

Bloody hell, I've been away for a couple of years.

My last bone of contention was Asian Grooming Gangs and I was shouted down as racist . . . by all the Lefty Do-Gooders and look how that turned out.

I pop back from to time to time and look.

Nothing has changed bar the date !!

See you anon.

PS I only met Ewan McColl once (my business was with Peggy), he was an arse, she was charming.