BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 08:27 PM

here we are again...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 08:44 PM

And you expect it to make a difference. Wow! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM

Barb'ry - cheers..

If we can have sensible discussion between different British political sides,
whilst maintaining a fair working relationship with you as our mod..

..what a wonderful world this would be...

Up to now our little internet microcosm
reflects what can happen in the the big old real world,
when subjugated communities struggle under the boot of heavy handed police intervention...
Fortunately so far, we've not risen up in our ghetto,
and burnt down all our own shops and homes in futile protest..

We're too British for that..
Though we might just get a bit disgruntled enough
to write a letter of complaint to our local newspaper...

Right then..
My question to kick off this new thread..

News headline this morning:

"Essential workers and families to get tests"..

So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 11:22 PM

No.
Teachers haven't been regarded as essential to the Polloi for some time now; as Voltaire put it, it wouldn't do to teach the peasantry to read - "who then would plough the fields". They might even get ideas above their station. I write regretfully, as one formerly involved in higher education.

On the other hand, maybe you teach computing, and how to construct "Apps". I was kinda hoping the "predictive text facility" or whatever would have made that "Apes".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:20 AM

When it comes to something as essential as testing, son't people find it a little alarming that it should be divided into 'essential and inessential' ?
It rises several questions:
[a] Is thete not enough equipment to go around. if not, why not?
[b] Who decides and on what basis?
Somewhat drawing straw in the lifeboat-ish - I have several songs about what happens when the food runs out !

We live in a society where the importance of people is not based on skill or the contribution to society, but to the power they wield by their wealth - even the highest skilled among us are judged by whether there are enough of them to be replaced, particularly at a lower cost
That hasn't worked well in normal times - in today's situation I find it somewhat chilling

I#m a bit of a sucker for Sci-fi thrillers such as the excellent recent BBC remake of 'War of the Worlds'
The one I find really spookily co-incidental is one entitled 'Cobra' where a natural disaster (a sunspot) knocks out all the power in Britain - a middle of the road Conservative Government is faced with deciding which part of mainland Britain get's the power back and which doesn't - The North East loses out with devastating consequences, a Tommy Robinson-alike takes over.....
Television chewing-gum, but every bit as thought provoking as 'Noughts and Crosses'
God - the things you do when you've time on your hands :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM

In the nightly press conference it was quite heartening to hear the scientists finally pushing back and pointing out that while they provide information, it is the politicians that take decisions. I have made similar points many times in earlier threads, but the media have usually seemed to stop exploring things when the government spokesperson says 'we are following the science.' I would like to see every scientist on news programming emphasising that it is the politicians who decide, not them.

One thing I expect to cause massive confusion later on is the matter of false-positives and false negatives in tests. This is relatively subtle and between the wish in politics to give simple messages, a lack of understanding on their part and a fairly limited understanding of maths in both the media and the general population, I anticipate a great of poor, misleading and downright wrong information to be given out.   But it is critical if you are adopting a "test and trace" approach, which the government now seems to belatedly recognising is vital.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:47 AM

Just after posting that I read an email from Louise Jordan, who is a singer/songwriter who typically works on projects. For example, one is "No Petticoats Here" about women in and at the time of the first world war.

Her latest project is on Florence Nightingale, who as many of you will know is important for her use of statistics and the development of ways of presenting them. Arguably, it is this aspect of her work that has been more influential than on nursing directly.

Anyway, she has just released a song from the album called 'Statistics save Lives': "Use the Maths and Use the Science".   It is available to listen to online, but she has password protected it for people on her mailing list, so I will not post the details here.

It is highly relevant to the current situation, but quite by chance.

Her website is here

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM

"but the media have usually seemed to stop exploring things"
T think this is true - the least "aligned" of the media make public things like THIS, it is ignored or denied by them in charge, than all but The Guardian and the Indie, both noted for their highly reputable investigative journalist, drop it
In the case of testing, this remains a major problem and a bone of contention with those who have to mop up the mess
Indifference rule OK with far too many, it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM

In the meanwhile I see that Trump is suggesting that injecting disinfectant could be a good treatment for Covid19. I suppose we should be thankful that Boris is just ineffective rather than downright dangerouos.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:32 AM

In the meanwhile I see that Trump is suggesting that injecting disinfectant could be a good treatment for Covid19.

A fine example of meejah distortion and propagation of false news

His actual words tell a different story, but that hardly suits the narrative. Does it?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM

Following the science is fine when the science is settled. The science is quite clearly behind the curve in many regards and it's good to see scientists, a generally honest bunch, biting back (I was reading a piece on this in the Guardian just before looking at this thread). Following the science allows you one day to blame the science. It's scarcely beyond the imagination to suspect that this shoddy government sees that as a card up its sleeve.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:53 AM

From BBC news Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment

His actual words

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."°

I suppose it will become fake news when he denies ever having said it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

"I suppose it will become fake news when he denies ever having said it."
Hew we have to rely on a fake fake new purveyor
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:01 AM

Your quote says the Prsident suggests.He actually asked a question.
You and the meedjah may wish to skip over the vital distinction, other more probing minds do not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:24 AM

UV light and Dalek approach to virus control.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:35 AM

China has donated 30 million to the World Health Organisation
Another kick up the arse for the Pratt on Pennsylvania Avenue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:57 AM

Is it really necessary to point out using UV to kill viruses on a surface is a completely different thing to killing it inside a human body? As that article makes clear "UV radiation kills viruses by chemically modifying their genetic material, DNA and RNA." Just what you want inside a human made up of lots of DNA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM

( suppose it may help us on here if we try not to involve american topics - there's plenty of stuff going on in these islands without looking to the horror show over the atlantic)
i've just had a very beautiful walk in nearby woods and met a couple of people on the path....we discussed redstarts, pied flycatchers, curlews calling and what a beautiful racket blackcaps are making today etc etc. how great to escape all the news. all 3 of us don't have or watch the tv for news - i love the radio (fip radio france for music (or my son's show on radio Bari in Italy) a great selection of streamed genres - no ads and very little parlezing. For news i like to listen to radio scotland - i'm usually very impressed with nicola sturgeoan - straightforward, empatheitc and sensible and preferable to whoever is spouting the westminster gibberish any day. and obviously - we get the guardian and the New European delivered. delivered. it's amazing how long i can spend reading newspapers while trying to avoid the news!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:28 AM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504358/
The abstract: Make of it what you will

The H1N1 “Spanish flu” outbreak of 1918–1919 was the most devastating pandemic on record, killing between 50 million and 100 million people. Should the next influenza pandemic prove equally virulent, there could be more than 300 million deaths globally. The conventional view is that little could have been done to prevent the H1N1 virus from spreading or to treat those infected; however, there is evidence to the contrary. Records from an “open-air” hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, suggest that some patients and staff were spared the worst of the outbreak. A combination of fresh air, sunlight, scrupulous standards of hygiene, and reusable face masks appears to have substantially reduced deaths among some patients and infections among medical staff. We argue that temporary hospitals should be a priority in emergency planning. Equally, other measures adopted during the 1918 pandemic merit more attention than they currently receive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM

You are right, Workingtonman, there is more than enough politics on this side of the ocean. There seems to be a big shift in tone this week to me, broadly since last Sunday's Times article criticising the government. In the past few days we have head of the 400,000 gowns from Turkey being 32,000; the 'book a home test' running out of slots on the first day, criticism of the testing centre at Chessington for apparently losing tests, rejection for the government's attempt to switch from 'tests' to 'capacity to test' … it goes on.

But you are also right that having a walk in countryside or whatever is good for you. As I have mild asthma my daughter is very keen I don't go out at all, but today my wife and I snuck out to some nearby woods where we encountered three people in the half an hour or so we were out.   And, as you say, we heard a good variety of wildlife. I also took the opportunity to examine the curling of some fern fronds - something I regret to say I haven't looked closely at for many decades. Equally, some intact 'dandelion clocks'. There is much to appreciate now we are able to slow down and take a proper look. Some friends of mine do essentially the same walk every day, and take around 20 photos each time. The amount there is to see is, as Dumbledore would put it, "surprising in a way, but as you think about it, not really surprising at all."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

I wasn't introducing the Orange one's nonsense for further discussion really. Just saying that it makes our Boris look almost sensible. I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies:-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM

Whether Agent-Orange) suggested injections or drinking of disinfectant as a ‘cure’ for Covid-19 or not, the BBC have taken his utterance seriously enough this morning to firmly warn listeners and viewers that disinfectant must not, under any circumstances, be ingested or injected into the body.

They obviously regard either Agent-Orange, or those who listen to what he says, or both, as terminally stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Firmly, and repeatedly warn...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:22 AM

Medical experts in the US have just expressed their horror at the suggestion of injecting bleach for any reason - funny how far you the scalee this "fake news" reaches
Mind you, the news item carried the film of Trump actually saying it - maybe "fake film" as well !

The new Government site where essential health workers were invited to register for immediate testing, has almost immediately closed due to over-subscription in somewhat of a quandary as to where to go from here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:37 AM

What Trump actually said:

“And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute,” Trump said. “One minute! And is there a way we can do something, by an injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So, that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.”

Sounds to me like he was suggesting injecting disinfectant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

He keeps swinging for the fences but he doesn't have a bat in his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

My bad - I think you're right
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:00 AM

Instead putting out horseshit like this a responsible leader would just say "we're looking into alternate forms of treatment" and leave it at that. Some MAGA hat-wearing dimwit is probably chugging Lysol as we speak.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

”I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.“

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

In my last post horseshit got auto-corrected to horseshoe.

---

Fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:29 AM

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.


However it was the majority under both electoral systems elected the blond bombshells. The right are in the ascendency and you cannot do diddly squat to change anything. How very sad for you. It is the failing of democracy that the majority win and the minority lose. Claiming to have won the argument performed miracles at the polls for magic grandad, did it not?
His inferior party was smote mightily and cast into the wilderness while the winners cheered and celebrated an escape from a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM

"Don't inject Lysol": maker of household cleaner hits back at Trump virus claim.

Trump Claim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM

there is a very good case for some form of PR in england/wales. the scottish government already has a functioning PR system, a much more reasonable and considerate parliamentary debate and a competent and responsive government. while only a handful of fptp MSPs are elected while the SNP is so popular, there are plenty of 'list MSPs' to ensure that minority voices are heard and considered in the chamber. i used to think that england should transfer to a similar system - but only after 3 terms of a competent democratic socialist government in the european model. but now - i'd go for PR tomorrow as a quick way to more sensible government. (though of course the liberals could mess this up as well with their relentless tory-lite approach) (d'oh!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

From a Guardian article:

Caroline Criado-Perez, whose book "Invisible Women" addresses the issue of ill-fitting PPE for women in one of its chapters, said she has been inundated with messages from healthcare workers who could not find protective equipment to fit them.
“Respiratory protective equipment is designed for a male face, and if it doesn’t fit it won’t protect,” she said. “Because of a dearth of sex disaggregated data we don’t know how many women are affected, but I am hearing on a daily basis from women in the NHS who say they can’t get their masks to fit.”

===

As I have said before, getting PPE is not the only criteria. It needs to be PPE of the right size and much of it is not suitable for women.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM
. . .
My question to kick off this new thread..
News headline this morning:
"Essential workers and families to get tests"..
So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???

Contrary to ABCD's immediate response, if your wife is a teacher she is included in the new testing regime (once the initial 'surge' on the availability settles down)
Details are on Gov.UK
That page mentions 'essential workers' and links to a list of Here where the list of essential workers includes:
List of essential workers and those prioritised for testing (England only)
. . .
education and childcare workers, including:
support and teaching staff
social workers
specialist education professionals

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Are you, Iains? Or are you just so daft as not to see a statement disguised as a question to cover your own arse?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:36 PM

Sorry for the misformating. Can someone take the italics off after "questin" please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

I see the Guardian is reporting that Dominic Cummings is a member of the SAGE group, which is supposed to be giving independent scientific advice to the government.

I am sure some will dismiss it just because the Guardian is reporting it, but let's take a wider question. Is it ever appropriate than a political appointee with no scientific background at all is able to influence the conclusions of the group, and if so when? If the government were to confirm he is an appointee, would you be comfortable? And if he is not, under what conditions would you think it appropriate he become a member?

Note that anything equivalent to "anyone the PM decides to appoint can be a member" is not answering the question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:07 PM

MPs, if a person was to genralize, have humanity degrees. This is not the best background for making judgement calls on scientific data. Having a spad like Dominic Cummins to reach to the nitty gritty is invaluable. Several oil companies I worked for brought in facilitators to bring a focus to specific problems and their solution. Their function can be summarised thus:
    Design and plan the group process, and select the tools that best help the group progress towards that outcome.
    Guide and control the group process to ensure that the above objectives are met.
    Ensure that outcomes, actions and questions are properly recorded and actioned, and appropriately dealt with afterwards.(ie lead the "lessons learnt" process)
I would see the role of Dominic Cummins as being broadly comparable to that of a facilitator. One single person able to bring a focus to disparate threads and guide/control the decision making process.
The few facilitators I encountered were geeky and super smart.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:33 PM

Others views may differ, but the accounts we have heard of Dominic Cummings do not suggest he would be a good facilitator, since a key part of being a facilitator is giving everyone a chance to express their views, whether you agree or not, and then getting the group to reach an agreement using their skills, again whether you agree with their conclusion or not.   That does not sound like a pen picture of Cummings.

But again, what is the desired outcome? This is a scientific group charged with giving the best possible scientific advice. If the facilitator is trying to ensure the recommended outcome is politically acceptable, it is not achieving its outcome. So if you have to have a facilitor, to meet the outcome, you need someone outside the political bodies.   As with justice being seen to be done as well as being done, the scientific advice needs to be demonstrably free from political bias. This is especially true if the government is relying on the 'following the best scientific advice' defence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM

For how long did they listen to you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:52 PM

Bloody good question, ABCD...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:56 PM

There is no system that is perfect and trying to get a consencus off a room full of experts is the stuff of dreams. So far thegovernment approch seems to be correct as far as lockdown is concerned.I would take issue with heathrow and ferries still allowing suipposedly unfettered access. The issue with PPE is by no means unique to britain, neither is the issue of test reliability. Frequency of testing may be a valis criticism.Not knowing all the facts I cannot comment. I think trying toplay a political blame game at this juncture is wasteful. Analysisof what couldhave been is for a later time. When every action is to a large extent on the fly having the opposition party pointing fingers and the media let loose as attack dogs serves no purpose. This is not a dress rehersal and mistakes cost lives. Personally I find the media behaviour at the daily press conferance an embarassment. The media are there purely to question and report not behave as media stars seekin "gotcha" moments. This behaviour will almost certainly lose the BBC its taxpayer funding once the dust settles. If the government has made mistakes they will inevitably be found out. I have no reason not to believe that if an action is found to be wrong then it will be rectified. There are simply too many flapping mouths for any kind of secret to be kept.
Do you seriously think Labour would not have reacted in a broadly similar way?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 PM

To have a "senior" spin doctor on a committee can only lead to people questioning the independence of that committee.

The scientists are appointed to provide the governments with the best advise possible given current knowledge.

Having the likes of Cummings and Ben warner on a Scientific Advisory Group can only undermine the publics perception of the advice.

It is not time to play politics with information like this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

What anybody **thinks** Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial. As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Everything that happens since the GE is Johnson’s problem. He wanted it, he got it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM

As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Obviously a poor loser! I should get used to the idea. It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:09 PM

Troll alert. As ever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:14 PM

Homeopathy... may have something for the Coronavirus.


Absolutely.

Also Scientology, Flat-Earthism, Anti-Vaxxers and the "5G Causes Covid 19" crew.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:42 AM

”Troll alert. As ever.“

When does he ever do anything else, Steve. At least he seems to be eschewing the personal insults at the moment (‘poor loser’ really doesn’t even register on the Richter-Scale of Abuse AFAIC).

It just strikes me as very strange that someone who celebrates the Conservative majority with posts like, ”It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!”, is so concerned with what Labour might or might not have done if they were in power right now. FWIW, and from a pragmatic POV, I agree with him, but ‘what Labour would have done‘ is of absolutely no consequence, they have no power - not even as an opposition, because their numbers in parliament are insufficient for there to be any possibility of defeating the government in a vote - so dragging that red-herring out at every available opportunity is pointless, and not even worthy of a response.

When he’s not quoting ‘Seaman’ Staines, or deceitfully C&P-ing pieces without accreditation in order to make it look like his own words, he’s a real lightweight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:55 AM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,   
Britain is now basically ruled over by a trio of ruthless sickos - Johnson the Brainless, 'Mad Maggie Patel' and the unelected Dom Scummings - they even cast aside any of they own collegues who don't measure DOWN to their own level like sacrificed chess-pieces   - nobody else has a say in what happens in today's Crisis Britan - hence the trail of devastation, tardiness and mistakes in tackling the crisis
What better tactic than to focus the attention on people outside this 'Circle of Friends'
The opinions of medical experts who are suggesting heads have to roll and the culprits having to be made answerable, or those front line "moaners" demanding decent protective equipment plastic bags some of them have been forced to wear - all marginalised with pie-in-the-sky promises instead of the or just simply ignored
Let' talk about Labour instead - just like "It was the last Labour Government wot dunnit
Even the Tories have abandoned the pretense of principles with a series of putsches and one particular 'Night of the Long Knives'
Pity Brecht isn't still around to write a follow-up to 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui'
Dangerous days on all fronts
The only people to be discussing here is The Twisted Trio
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

Are my eyes deceiving me Baccie or are you giving the individual "The fresh air of publicity" :-)
It gets to the best if you take your eyes off the ball
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM

Well yes, Jim - as I said in my post of 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM, it’s diversionary horse-shit and barely worth a response. I won’t be wasting any more Mudcat server-space, or my own time, Responding to or even thinking about his childish, lightweight diversion-tactics.

Over and out (unless or until something worthwhile comes up).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

It's just been announced that the helpline for essential Covit workers that was opened again this morning closed within a couple of hours due to being unable to respond to requests
The only few left are in Scotland
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:59 AM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Nah, Bonz, this is even better than Homeopathy:


Cristina Cuomo revealed that she took Clorox baths and used vitamin drips, among other things, to try to speed up her recovery.

Cuomo also detailed how she took bleach baths, adding "½ cup ONLY of Clorox" to her regular baths to help "combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it."

"We want to neutralize heavy metals because they slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells, which is our energy field, and we need a good flow of energy," she wrote.

See Also:

https://thepuristonline.com/2020/04/the-cuomos-corona-protocol-week-3/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:15 PM

So at today's press conference Stephen Powis (National Medical Director of NHS England) was asked directly what questions Cummings asked at SAGE meetings, and responded by saying how had a lot of eminent scientists on it. But did not mention Cummings.

So the follow up question again asked about Cumming's questions, and again he avoided even mentioning Cummings.


I m sure he was doing as advised, but he has just demonstrated that SAGE is not politically independent. And in doing so, he has undermined any claim that the government is making to following the best scientific advice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM

Apparently a vicar who injected himself with Domestos has died. His family are sueing Trump for a bleach of the priest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,

NOPE!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Apparently a vicar who .....

Never set any store on information that starts with "Apparently".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:01 PM

Sorry Dave. I didn't read it properly first time.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:18 PM

The old ones are the best! :-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:34 PM

's ok, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:19 AM

Does anyone else get fed up of this? I know the Americans do although it beats my why they come on a UK politics thread.

Basically, someone criticises the Tories. The response is Labour would do no better. It is pointed out that Labour have not been in power for 10 years. Antisemitism rears its head. Accusations of racism start to fly. Someone tries to make a sensible point. Insults and propaganda abound. The thread is closed.

Well, I have a radical new idea. From today, for two weeks, I am taking myself out of politics. This is not capitulation. The wreckers have not won. If we all (you know who you are) withdraw for a while, the wreckers have nothing to wreck. The cause of all the trouble becomes obvious. And at least we get a couple of weeks peace :-)

Who's with me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

" The wreckers have not won"
If ou do they have Dave - what they want is not to have what is happening discussed
All the subjects you mention can and should be discussed - it's up to those who care about them to make sure rationally - they are never going to be dalt with in friendly manner - that's the nature of pre-Brexit/Trump Britain and America
Stop discussing them and you fall behind what's happening daily
It's a choice for the individual, of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Jesus fucking wept! It’s like watching ‘Groundhog Day’, but without the comedy!

Discussion is fine, it’s what we come here for isn’t it? But insults and provocation, and reacting to insults and provocation are not discussion. When one individual posts insulting and provocative stuff - name calling, ‘Whataboutery’, comparing black, overweight Labour politicians to a hippopotamus, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera - the only worthwhile answer is to ignore the post. If you react, you lower yourself to the level of the person who insults and tries to provoke you - you’re not ‘dealing with the problem’, you’re becoming part of the problem.

When YKW starts his Insulting and provocative nonsense, for fuck’s sake do the intelligent thing, and ignore him. If you don’t react, if you don’t join in with his idiocy, guess what - you can’t legitimately be be blamed!

It’s easy - I’ve done it for some time now - and believe me, it’s truly liberating!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:16 AM

Sorry, bastard HTML, Buggered the underlining, but the message is still clear.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:37 AM

If we are ever are going to refer to him, let's use his name. I'm sick of stuff like "usual suspects" or "cabal" or "old men" that tends to put us into "is it I, Lord?" mode.   We are talking about IAINS. Yep, the less we mention him the better. But let's always use his name. Over and out...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM

dave - i was talking to my wife yesterday and telling her about the endless squabbles, arguments, accusations and trolling on here. 'why do you go on then?' tricky question. i think i have tried in various ways to have a friendly discussion about politics (i'm just reminded of a Father Ted episode that begins with Ted dreaming about having a learned theological discussion with a couple of other intelligent and amusing priests- then he wakes up and finds he's still with Jack and Dougal and Mrs Doyle) anyway - i would like to give your idea a go . Something keeps drawing me back to this car crash. but i will try....

but before i do i would like to know if someone was to open a thread in another poster's name would that constitute good reason to ban them from the site? or is this fraud acceptable on Mudcat? if so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

Works - can’t be done, the BS section is closed to non-members, so posting as, for instance, ‘GUEST: Backwoodsman’ is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.

i don't think we have ever managed to have a reasonable discussion on here about eg 'different directions on the left and how best to pursue more progressive politics' -it's not a lot to ask but it's been impossible. ian has bored and insulted his way through everything and has proven to have more energy than the rest of us. i've tried various tactics - including ignoring him as we all have - but we can't get rid of him and the mods clearly have no wish to. i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that adverts have started to appear within the threads? in itself another reason to go - but where to?

sorry - i'm not doing a very good job of staying off this thread eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:06 AM

hi BWM -a thread appeared the other day in a name i used to have as Guest: petecockermouth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

Yes, I know, but it was ‘above the salt’ in the Music section, wasn’t it? GUEST: postings are permitted there, but not in BS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

PM sent, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.    


If you are going to make accusations best you provide the eveidence as well. Otherweise what does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

This gets to a stalemate
Evidence is supplied, ignored and demanded again - and so ad-infinitum
That we are losing people, some of them long term, is evidence enough
Let's move on in the hope the discussion gets more important than the chess game

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

My very favourite quote from Blazing Saddles was "Blow it out yo' ass, Howard." I'm thinking of adopting it but dropping the "Howard..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business

Former MPs such as Hammond are in no position to demand anything. No one is going to take a blind bit of notice of a has been.

a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
A gnat against an elephant I would say, a minnow versus a whale.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 12:50 PM

”Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not “

Funny thing, that word ‘demand’. The BBC didn’t describe it as a ‘demand’, their choice of word was ‘urged’, which puts a different complexion on things, to my way of thinking. We are all free to ‘urge’ the government to take a course of action but, of course, the government is under no compunction to do as we ‘urge’.

Hammond’s time was over at the last GE - he can ‘urge’ or ‘demand’ until he’s blue in the face, but his opinion has no more weight than anyone else’s. And he’s quite simply wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM

Hammond's influence has waned dramatically since he and 20 other Torys MPs were sacked from the party for sabotaging the Government Brexit plans prior to the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 03:29 PM

I read the report - in the Times, I think
They gave the impressiion that Hammond was acting on behalf of somebody
The increase on the clampdown was on The BBC news - bringing them together was mine own work

Innt great to see the right tearing each other's throat's out = just the thing to see us through a crisis and at least it keeps the parasitic incompetents off our backs for a while
What next, I wonder another 'Night o the Long Knives' to rid the party of dissidents
IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME

And doesn't it show how much more civilised and democratic Labour is in comparison?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

It seems not all is as clear-cut as some would have us believe on the matter oe easing restrictions
Rabid Raab and his muppets have been planning for some now to do this in respone to pressure from big business
That it's still a goer in the present circumstances has elicited a statement from the Health boss that any attempts to do so will revers any improvement on the Covit 19 front   

Nice to hear some good news on the radio this morning
Thanks to the lock-down, the atmosphere is showing eigns of cleaning up and wild-life all over the planet is able to return to its natural habitat
The beach which was used for filming the Leonardo DiCaprio film in Maya Bay, off the coast of Thailand, which was closed because of over- tourism, is now full of basking sharks (probably on holiday from Westminster and Washington)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

A second wave would be inevitable with the current levels of positive tests and without an extremely robust test and trace system in place. It should not be forgotten that every infection in every country started from a single infected person, or a very small number of infected people. So if you open up and there is a single person capable of infecting others you have a second wave on your hands unless you can detect, trace and isolate everyone who is a carrier. No amount of optimism gets round that. "Lock down" is an attempt to starve the virus out of existence, so opening before you have ensured that you can detect any reoccurrence even in asymptomatic carriers rapidly and effectively is extremely short sighted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

With distinct uncertainty as to whether having been infected with covid-19 gives immunity relaxing lockdown will pruoduce a further wave of infection. Herd immunity would seem to be a myth. It raises questions as to the efficacy of lockdown and its relaxation. Those that are vulnerable will die if infected. This will remain true until such time as a cure is produced. The only function of lockdown would appear to be keeping infection tomanageable levels. But continued lockdown will destroy the economy and the food chain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:04 AM

Britain has been claiming it has been acting on the advice of "experts" - it they didn't mention that they were referring to financial experts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:32 AM

It is worth remembering, though it all seems a long time ago now, that Professor Mitford, the usual economist Brexiteers supporters referenced, was quite prepared for the farming market within the UK to go to the wall in what he saw as the wider interests.   All the relevant papers can be found on Economists for Free Trade; I did read many of them at the time but can't be othered to do so again at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

Experts only give guidance, government makes decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

opposing views of experts

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM

It is rarely difficult to find two experts of differing opinion, whatever the topic. At the minimum you need to consider how many experts side with one opinion or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM

And when experts differ in opinion, there is nothing to say that the opinion of the majority of the experts is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:24 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?

I agree the majority view is not always right.

In science, when the minority has evidence of a high enough standard, it will win. Here we have no such evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:25 AM

"And when experts differ in opinion,"
Since this pandemic started this has not happened - the confusion has been deliberately created elsewhere - particular by politicians covering up their blunders
Typical confusion by Johnson has just been shown on the news by Johnson, who has stated quite clearly that the Crsis is at its highest point so far and there can me no question of there being a relaxation
His merry morons seem to be either sending out their own message or secretly plotting to follow the money-makers behind his back
What the **** is the public expected to do - read between the lines
It's fairly obvious to me that Party loyalty is streets ahead of general welfare in this Donkey Derby
Maybe it's time to leaver the experts to decide and cut out the self-interested middle-men
That can never be a question of sacrificing lives for economic interests - not ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:51 AM

The science has yet to provide clear answers, hence the differing views.
Only hindsight will prove what path is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?
I agree the majority view is not always right.

I have never claimed that the electorate were either scientists, or experts. The 17.4 million were, however, the majority of those who were both entitled to vote, and chose to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM

My comment was, obviously I hope, tongue in cheek, Nigel. However, there is a definite similarity between the experts in virus transmission and the voters in Brexit: each is/was drawing on their views and experience, and each is/was working on incomplete knowledge, and each is/was having to make predictions about an uncertain future.

But I could not resist your comment that the majority is not always right. Which is, of course, true. Especially when it comes to predicting the future,

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM

Nice one - we leave it to the politicians and wait to count the dead to see who is right
Don't suppose there are many wo could live with that - literally
IT'S ALL HAPPENING NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:20 AM

I have been looking for what SAGE documents I can find. This the latest I have found so far (16th March)

This recommendation caught my eye (emphasis is mine)


4. It was agreed that a policy of alternating between periods of more and less strict social distancing measures could plausibly be effective at keeping the number of critical care cases within capacity. These would need to be in place for at least most of a year. Under such as policy, at least half of the year would be spent under the stricter social distancing measures.


I would say SAGE did not seem to think much of reopening quickly.
I accept there may be later reports that change this view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS.
The only definite is that a given percentage of the most vulnerable will die if they become infected. What that mortality rate may be is as yet unquantified. Logically the route to follow is that those deemed most at risk suffer a more onerous lockdown by way of extensions than the younger and fitter.Stagnating vast parts of the normal NHS schedule also causes deaths. Transplant and cancer patients cannot wait for cancelled treatments. They also die. Some real life situations do not have a textbook of correct options to be followed, it is more a case of suck it and see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy. If you choose to risk swamping the NHS that does not ensure the economy does not collapse. Indeed, many argue that a second wave caused by an early release when we were not properly prepared (with extensive testing and extensive tracing), would do exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:55 PM

"It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS"
That's it in a nutshell - money versus peoples health well-being and lives
When has it ever been any different ?
If the NHS was getting the support irt bneeded peopple wold be falling ill and dying at the rate they are
For all it's drawbacks, China has proved that hands down
It doesn't have such a problem because, despite having reintroducing Capitalism, it is under Government control rather than the opposite as in Britain and the US
It may have been the first to be hit by the virus, but it was the first to take it seriously, to show it the urgency required and to return to normal
The speed with witch that emergencyy hospital was up and running was a lesson for the world
China and Cuba were offering aid well before ther knockdowns were taking place
Meanwhile, back at Trump's ranch, the US were playing politics by rejecting "leftie" aid   
Now Johnson's jokers are faffing about tossing a coin to see whether business is more important than peoples lives, and his nodding dogs are shuffling into line to stand behind him   
This is also the case with the blame game - already it's the fault of disagreeing scientists insted of the string of fuck-ups already on record
Next stop - the last Labour Government
THIS from a scientist and surgeon with numerous Fellowships in Medicine and Medical science under his belt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

Thuis morning started with an announcement that the Government is being forced to reconsider it's first come-first tested policy for the frozen emergency scheme,
Now the news that the cabinet are divided on whether the interests of the people people should be given priority over big business
Let's hope Scummings doesn't start frog-marching dissidents our again - that's all the UK needs
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former, the commonality being time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM

And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, because they are much better qualified to interpret the scientific advice provided.....................not!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:16 PM

meaningless bullshit
"And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, "
As the Tories are operating a dictatorship and sacking everybody who doesn't agre with their leaders they are totally responsible for everything that happen
Labour, Lib DEms, Grreens, SNP - totally irrelevant
The only 'others' involved are those the bribed with bung - DUP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM

Just one salient point Jim, Johnson does not need the DUP backing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:41 PM

The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related
The perscon making this claim was saying they were and choices had to be made, five minures ago - not even singing from his own hymn-sheet

When all this is over, Parliament with enter into a several year battle on the details of leaving Europe
Considering the length of time and the bloodletting it took to get this far, not a happy state of affairs to a fractured country with a sup staring it in the face
Happy Days most certainly aren't Here Again
The system is broken beyond repair and needs replacing - the people cannot be asked to carry the can back for this mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:58 PM

Bonzo, posters on this thread are at last trying to hold intelligent conversation, without trolling, flaming, or abuse. Even Iains is conducting himself with the appropriate level of decorum.

Please don’t spoil things by behaving like a big daft kid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

Iains appears to be confused on this one:
Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former,
Either they are related, or they are not. You can't argue it both ways in a single paragraph.

Jim is correct The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related although I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it.

Lockdown is reducing the income of many people, meaning they have less to spend, and so the circulation effect of money reduces turnover and profits.
Many businesses are closed (temporarily at least) and are providing neither goods nor services. Neither are they generating profits for their owners, or taxes for the country.
The Government (using our money, or freshly 'created' money) is supporting both the above groups, being a cost to the country which will not see a matching benefit, apart from 1, keeping more people alive, 2, preventing an even more serious crash as those who are not working run out of funds.

For the three reasons above I agree with Jim that there is an inextricable link between the lockdown, and harm to the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:12 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote."

Sorry, BWM, but this comment doesn't represent "decorum." I haven't seen anyone here who doesn't accept the election result. Not only that, there is a glaring non seq in the first eleven words. It's not debate, John. It's him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

So do like I did, and ignore it. Every time you react, he wins.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:32 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.
There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.
One directly impacts the other. In that sense they are directly related.
The only way to avoid swamping the NHS is by lockdown, this automatically contracts the economy.
Testing is much vaunted by the media hacks and Labour but is its importance overplayed? It gives a status at a particular moment in time.
It can distinguish between those infected, not infected, have been infected with a questionable degree of precision. The only truly accurate figures are for rates of hospitalisation. The only reasonably accurate data for planning purposes is the daily infection rate, but how much is based on testing and how much on hospitalisation? One set of experts are doom merchants, others call for easing up on segregation. I suspect Dominic Cummins can serve a vital role sorting through the chaf and determining a coherant way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:24 PM

Well, John, perhaps to confirm his alleged new level of decorum, you could ask who he means when he claims that there are those who don't accept the election result. I haven't seen anyone here predicating an argument on that basis, despite his provocative insinuation. Read that post again. The election result pissed me off hugely, but, along with everyone else I know, on Mudcat or not, I accept that result. Same old, same old. This leopard hasn't changed his spots. You just watch. And you didn't exactly ignore him when you praised his alleged decorum.

Let's not fall out, but let's not be complacent either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:47 PM

"I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it."
If one section of the Government are saying the lock-down should be eased and another (led by Bad Boris says the oppose - you have a divided Government calling for National unity in the middle of a major crisis - not only split against each other but split in what they are demanding and how they are behaving themselves
A three-way split maybe ?
It has already been argued by Boris's acolytes here that the restrictions ned to be eased for the sake of Britain's economic future
I think you need to be handing out new hymn sheets among your team Nigel
In fairness to yourselves, it's a little difficult working out what your Government wants to do - this is Brexit all over again, but thus time with a feller with a scythe as referee

An 80 seat majority indicates an electorate who want's this whole thing to finish anf soon
Nobody can have such contempt for the Briish People as to believe that they want a clownish public school lout who pays for his sex with taxpayers money, treats women as sex-toys and regards other races as "watermelon smilers" and walking latterboxes
Britain hasn't slithered that far down the tubes, surely
You Hitler won a majority and weny on to massacre millions because of their religion, way of life ot mental and physical health
Stalin was adored by his people more than any leader was before or has been since
Majorities are won by those who control the sources of information and the media - it has never been for their skill and dedication
Our political system puts our leaders in ivory towers and answerable to nobody but those who fill their bank accounts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:05 PM

Gosh, sorry John, I've just spotted that your "decorum" post was made one minute after his and that you couldn't have known what he'd said. Sorry about that, but I'm sticking to my point about his blatant (though non-insulting for a refreshing change) Aunt Sally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:53 PM

I repeat what I’ve said numerous times now - don’t feed the troll. He hangs out the bait in order to get a reaction, and every time you and others take the bait and start jerking around, he wins - he’s got exactly what he wants.

Y’know, I’ve reached a point where I don’t give a FF - I’ve made my decision, he’s dead to me. You dance to his tune if you wish. And good luck with that.

Over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:57 AM

Baccy
I've taken note of your point and to a degree I'm adhering to it
On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining

The British public are now getting mixed messages from a Government which is demanding that everybody has to pull together if this crisis is to be beaten
Johnson, obviously shaken shitless by his own personal experiences at the hands of the virus, is saying the restrictions can't be relaxed in any way (yesterday's broadcast was as near as I have ever come to his being a human being since he first became Lord Mayor of London).
His cabinet are at each other's throats - one lot follow Johnson about the lock-down, the other crowd are more concerned about their investments
The only thing they appear to agree on is that the rest of the country have to pull in the same direction (sez the mob who can't agree among themselves and have been making back-stabbing each other a Parliamentary blood-sport since Brexit hit the fan)
To follow their 'logic' you'd have to take a course on schizophrenia - they seem not to be able to agree which of them is Norman Bates and which, his mother

Which raises the question of how we deal with our own problem
On the one hand he puts up carefully gathered cut-'n-pastes, examples of why isolation must continue; on the other, he argues why, if it is not lifted, the Economy will go Walkabout and the country will crash and burn
In a way, our own Government ("right or wrong") spokesman is a microcosm of he Westminster Circus - he argues with himself from post to post, while saying the opposite to to what a fellow Tory is saying
An example of what's happening in real life which saves us from having to talk in abstract   
That's not responding to him, in my opinion - it's using his own inability to agree with himself to spotlight what's taking place among our glorious leaders
Let's use him while he's doing such a good job on our behalf !

We saw Johnson close up and aslive as he gets once - when he was a contender as London's Lord Mayor
Pat and I were waiting for a plane for Greece at Heathrow when, out of boredom, we went into Smith's rather good book department
Johnson was standing at the pay-desk jacket hanging open, belly hanging over his belt. shirt hanging out, fumbling for coins in his jacket pocket.. (he must have been using Dominic Scumming's personal tailor even then)
Pat and I were still grinning when we got off the plane in Northern Greece

I have to confess, that image stayed with us for a long time - it conjured up some bizarre images when we read about the sexual shenanigans with his bunga-bunga tax-money lady, Ms Arcuri
Imagined descriptions of how they performed together, coupled with the shirt-tail hanging out one, caused a great deal of amusement in our local bar - they admire British politicians no end over here - more-so since I-feel-Priti Patel suggesting blockading Ireland to make her surrender to Tory demands - if you don't laugh you have to cry, doncha?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:08 AM

”On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining“

Your choice, Jim. I prefer to hold on to my self-respect, rather than allow myself to be jerked around by a worthless troublemaker. It’s playground nonsense..

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.

I was using it in the sense of opposed, not unrelated, so there is no such implication. But there is no point in getting hung up an precisely what a word means. if you don't like that word, I can live with it.

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM

By the way, the reason I thought end of May was because of this 'review after three weeks' suggestion. I thought after one set of three, people would accept a further period, after two they would be some grumbling, and after three lots of three weeks the grumbling would be loud enough in some quarters that a slight relaxation of the lockdown became likely. So nothing to do with scientific justification, but largely based on my impression of how some people will react to being locked down. And interesting had it been a 4 week period or a five week period, I think it would still be the third review that would be a problem: it is the reviews not the length that determines the dates.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM

"Your choice, Jim."
Sorry Baccy - you're not responding to my points
He's not going to go away and the mods aren't going to do anything about his behaviour
Rather than allow him to be a Lord Haw Haw, I can see no reason why we shouldn't why we shouldn't hoist him on his own petard - I can't for the life see how that is lacking in self respect - I put a great deal of effort in my mis-spent youth defacing National Front posters with my own messages
As you say, my choice
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.
If you look at the curves of new cases and deaths on the worldometer website you will see the UK is atypical in that there is no pronounced peak and decay, unlike Italy where peak occurred just after mid March.
The UK is flatlining/slowly decaying this complicates the timing for easing restrictions. As there is no clearly defined decrease there is no obvious end point on which to base timings for relaxation measures. How much this is skewed by London being the largest transport hub in Europe is hard to say but it must have some impact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

To repeat my post of 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM: I think it unlikely that the science will support any relaxation at the end of May - that will be driven by politics, not science, if it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:25 AM

A bit harsh on Doug there, John, I thought...

As you say, our choice. But picking on contradictions in arguments or calling out his straw men, as I did, isn't attacking the man. You can do that and stay high. The way we comment on the absurdities might be the mistake we've commonly made. I avoid the more ludicrous stuff completely, such as links to his eejit blogger-boss. We're all different and it doesn't do to keep on at us if we engage occasionally and carefully and recognise when bait is being a-dangled. If we get down and dirty it's a different matter. Then you can bollock us!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM

I think the twin problems of the virus and Iains ("Go together like a horse and carriage" as the song says) is having the effect of getting to us on occasion
We must keep repeating "Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better" - that's what they told us in school anyway ad look at the good it did Liverpool; two world class football teams, The friggin' Beatles and The Mersey Tunnel "Who coud ask for anything more" (as the other song says
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM

Nowt wrong with the Fab Four, Jim, and by the two world-class teams I'm sure you mean that in the Shankly (aka God) sense of Liverpool and Liverpool reserves...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 08:35 AM

Re. Trump's remarkable ideas,

"Now, Briany O'Linn kept an eye on the White House
Where President Trump sits and tweets in this bright house;
"With a shot of Jeyes Fluid," our hero would grin,
"I'll tend to me health..." Obit. Brian O'Linn.

If anyone can think of a better, more inevitable-seeming rhyme for "Whitehouse", he's welcome to the variant. I accept that I can be wrong, and even irresponsible. Gladly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 08:48 AM

That's well worth working on
Buac

On Anti Vienam marches we used to sing

Johnson's in the White House
We Don't think that's the right house
It should be called (the (the prudish sang 'Powder Room', the Scousers, 'shite house'
So take the man away
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM

Just been announced that the UK is set to have the highest number of virus casualties/deaths in Europe - deaths hve more than doublesd in the last seven days
Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

To be accurate, Jim, the doubling refers to deaths in care homes, a fair proportion of which won't be Coronavirus deaths. Still a major setback, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:40 PM

Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?

I would like to think so, but I fear if, as slackening lockdown is being discussed and implemented in varying degrees in Germany, Italy, France and Spain and others there will be some - and I am not referring to people on this thread - who would see it as an insult to our National Pride if several countries in the EU 'got going before us'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:19 PM

Surely any "lessening" of the restrictions need to take into account numerous factors. Is there PPE for the entire population, the answer to that is no. We do not enough to cater for the needs of front-line staff.
Is the "lessening" of restrictions to allow essential work to be carried out. What is essential is debateable.

Is a "lessening" to allow people to go to the pub (and I speak as a regular pub goer) no way!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:32 PM

Drink wine, Raggytash. You have to adapt. My great grandad, a Salford man, always gave up beer for Lent. He drank wine instead. That's the way to do it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Tea’s just as good, and no headache in the morning...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM

Backwoodsman, There is a secret to not getting hangovers.

The secret is to stay drunk.


Steve, I too have kept off the beer for lent, not the wine though. Aldi have some very passable Toro Loco Merlot at 7 Euro a bottle and some very passable Baron Armarillo Rioja again at 7 Euro a bottle.

I'm thinking of having an extension built to store the empties!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

I've been enjoying a cup of Tetley tea at 4pm with a slice of sourdough bread, butter and jam, to keep the worms from biting up to 5.30 when I stop work for the day!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:04 PM

" the doubling refers to deaths in care homes,"
I think you may be right Steve - being the worst in Europe is the clicher for me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 PM

Raggy, sadly those days are long gone for me. So I just put a brave face on it, and keep suppin’ the Yorkshire Tea - the Rolls Royce of teas!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

The worst in Europe is actually Belgium. But like many comparisons it is not like for like. Tha partially explains low figures for Germny and high figures for Belgium.
belgium has 633 deaths per million, Germany 74. Spain 510, Italy 453,
France 367, UK 319

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:51 PM

Well if only we knew how many have had Coronavirus and how many have died of it. Which we don't. Comparing countries is an invidious exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:13 PM

Invideous? I do not think so. Neither does Worldometer, a provider of global COVID-19 statistics for many caring people around the world. Their data is also trusted and used by the UK Government, Johns Hopkins CSSE, the Government of Thailand, the Government of Pakistan, Financial Times, The New York Times, Business Insider, BBC, and many others.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:17 PM

https://gulfnews.com/world/europe/why-the-worlds-highest-covid-19-death-rate-is-in-europes-capital-1.71195913

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

As always, there are many way to think of such things, but if you look at the Government's slide for Global Deaths, and look at the latest shown "UK (all settings)" figures, then the UK is worse than any other country at that stage except the US, and by a considerable margin. Note also that the France figures, as mentioned in the explanation, include all care homes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:23 PM

Just read that link, Iains. The subtitle points out "Brussels counts deaths at nursing homes even if there wasn’t a confirmed infection".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

As I did to my limited following weeks ago, today the Scottish government added wearing a mask at supermarkets, etc., to social distancing and stay-at-home measures.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 05:30 PM

The bottom line is that different European (and other) countries are in different stages of preparedness, in different stages of testing, in different stages of knowing who has and who hasn't had the virus, and who all have their different ways of collecting their statistics. The care home issue is a shining example of inconsistencies among different countries. There is no point to be made by trying to use numbers to compare countries. A starting point would be to count the excess of deaths over the seasonal average over a number of years, then to strip away confounding factors, then to analyse every single death in relation to whether it was a Coronavirus death or not. Then we're talking. All else is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:23 PM

DMcG If there is no way to directly compare data sets from one country with another it follows that claims this country is worse than that country are meaningless. Apples do not compare with oranges. Even crude death rates cannot compare as cause of death is recorded by way of different criteria from one country to another. The inaccuracy of data compilation both within countries and between countries has been a major stumbling block for forward planning throughout this crisis. This has been highlighted frequently. The difference between German and Belgian compilations of cause of death certificates is very much an apples and oranges comparison. Whatever metric is chosen for comparison it is flawed. This has always been a given from day one. Even when the dust has settled direct   comparisons between countries will be impossible because there is no standardisation of data compilation. Total numbers of fatalities may well be accurate. Cause of death most assuredly will not be, as most will have at least one comorbidity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:24 PM

With regard to the measures taken in different places, as far as I understand things New Zealand has been fortunate.
I'm getting my mask.   #{:^[]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:06 AM

Iains, I think you are perhaps missing that this is one of the graphs that the Government shows us every day, and that it is presented by one of the scientists in attendance. It standards to reason, then, that for all its limitations they consider it one of the better ways the data can be presented.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 03:23 AM

Isn't it odd
Thde BBC News headlines the situation of deaths as they stand at the time (Ist item) and 'Along Comes Jones' to tell you what the real facts are within hours
Someone really does have a hot-line to God
In this crisis - everybody but everybody hads to rely on the main news outlets - the BBC, for all its weaknesses and class predilections, being the main one
If people had behaved like some do doring wartime we'd all be wearing uniforms and flinging our right arms in the air
This is divisive - Trump invented 'Fake News' to cover is idiocy and inept leadership and made it a one man White House cottage industry
Some of it seems to made it across the pond
It's one thing to discuss how the crisis is bein handled (essential, in fact)
It's quite another to dispute official announcements and undermine experts because theuy don't suit certain individual tastes
Best to pretend there's a war on and bit lips eh - you can blame the last Labour Government when this is all over - there's a good lad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM

DMcG The only point I make is that the data is inevitably flawed. But if it is the best you have and is 80% accurate that is all you can use for planning purposes. It is not a blame game, it is the reality.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-04-06/the-flaws-in-coronavirus-case-reporting-data

https://cmmid.github.io/topics/covid19/forecasts-and-projections.html

https://blog.protiviti.com/2020/04/28/covid-19-crisis-exposes-flaws-in-master-data-sets/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM

During the war the BBC news was happily being contradicted nightly by Lord Haw-Haw - the Yanks has Tokyo Rose
We'll have to think of a name for ours
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

Interesting that the recent Panorama program was crewed by a bunch of Labour activists. This is a direct breach of BBC guidlines where such bias should be notified to the prospectiveaudience.
"”Appropriate information about their affiliations, funding and particular viewpoints should be made available to the audience, when relevant to the context.”

Another nail in the BBC coffin.

Full details in the link
Health Secretary slams Panorama

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

I partially agree with your 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM post Iains, and it is where I differ from Steve: yes, we would love to have the well-defined data so we can accurately cross-compare one country with another reliably: nothing could be better. And, retrospectively it might be possible to do that, though I doubt it because I suspect we are not collecting the additional information we would need to resolve the data sets. Had we stayed in the EU no doubt we could try to agree some reporting standards to apply to future pandemics as one of the 'lessons learned'. But we are in the position where we have to make the best use of the flawed data we have. We would rather not be, but needs must.

But this is where I part company with Iains's post: if we are accepting the data that is '80%' that is what we have to do. We cannot accept bits we like and ignore bits we don't like. So if COBRA is accepting that graph as 'the broad picture' as the COBR in the corner would suggest it is, then the broad picture also says the UK(all settings) is appreciably worse than other countries excluding the US.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM

Expert - BBC ----- who should we rely on Dominic Scumbag ?
This is delibarate sabotage from 'Fake News Freddie' maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM

It is a blatant lie - a piece of right-wing propaganda in fact. to suggest that where any major contradictions in the advice from the real experts - it it wwere true it would be emblazoned ovr every headline in Britain
This is what the Stewart' called "a makkie-up"
There may be differences of opinion on nuances, but overall, there is total and clearly stated agreement on the best way to proceed

On the other hand, half Britain's leaders are saying it is necessary to continue and possibly intensify lock-down (including a "one-bitten' Johnson, while the other half are demanding an easing of restrictions for the sake of big-business
That someone should continue to use this crisis as a photo-opportunity for anti-Labour propaganda is beyond belief and puts all his arguments where thay have always belonged - in the political gutter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

"On the other hand, half Britain's leaders are saying it is necessary to continue and possibly intensify lock-down (including a "one-bitten' Johnson, while the other half are demanding an easing of restrictions for the sake of big-business"

Not just for the sake of big business.

There is going to be huge financial cost for the taxpayers and a number of future governments here in the UK. The present government has spent/is going to spend huge amounts of money in trying to deal with this situation.

Not everyone is in the fortunate position of no longer having to need to work. There does need to be a managed return to work at some point, probably sooner rather than later. No doubt it will be a gradual return while also keeping an eye on the number of new cases of the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM

Same Day reporting
MESSAGE ONE
MESSAGE TWO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

Not everyone is in the fortunate position of no longer having to need to work

To be honest, we don't know how may such people there will be. In normal circumstances stopping the 'triple-lock' on pensions is such a vote loser no one considers it seriously, but something like the effects of this virus could get both sides of the house to agree it is should go. Then many pension funds are based on the stock market, so the value of pensions involved could drop significantly. If there is a forced devaluation it could eat up savings...

There may be quite a few pensioners forced back to work. We can't be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM

You can differ as much as you like, but useful comparisons between countries can be made only if broadly similar methods of amassing those numbers are used in each country. The issues involved are not minor. Care home deaths and deaths not in hospital have not been included here. "Deaths involving coronavirus" in this country are logged on the say-so of a doctor who has usually not got a test result to go from. On top of that, a Coronavirus death may reach the figures tomorrow morning, in five weeks' time or something in between. Now convince me that the countries you wish to compare us with are doing similar, or at least that you have a way of stripping away the inconsistencies between one country and another that muddle the results. Looking at our own numbers is useful in that they inform future strategy. Comparing countries may be done for political purposes (the brexiteers are sniffing around, for example), so you'd better have good numbers at the outset. Which we haven't got as things stand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:18 AM

"Well he did advocate an earlier lockdown, as did you."
He also recommended that weaker members of society be given lower priority - a crisis used for euthanasia
Trolling is right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:19 AM

You can differ as much as you like, but useful comparisons between countries can be made only if broadly similar methods of amassing those numbers are used in each country

I fully agree, and you have already said this several times. But you always appear to direct the comment at Iains. The idea of comparisons was introduced onto this discussion by someone else.

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM

Just been announced that the UK is set to have the highest number of virus casualties/deaths in Europe - deaths hve more than doublesd in the last seven days
Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?
Jim

Any comparisons since that point have been comments on that claim (or on the subsequent counter-claims).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:24 AM

I see this morning that the Prime Minister’s partner has given birth to a baby boy, and that mother and baby are doing well.

I’d like to congratulate Mr. Johnson and Miss Symonds on the birth of their child, and say what a very pleasant change it makes to see him publicly acknowledging the arrival of his latest Illegitimate child.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:25 AM

for what it is worth, Nigel, I read Steve's comment as a direct response to the comment I made in which I named him. I did not see it as directed at anyone else.

And I am quite content for it to be directed at me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:16 AM

"latest Illegitimate child."
Miaow :-)
Goood to see it more important that the coronavirus figures though - always did have his priorities right, our Boris
Good job they don't acknowledge all of them - we'd have to buy The Sun for the rest of the news
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

Sorry Jim, I allowed my halo to slip, and dropped into ‘Magic Grandad’ and ‘Abbopotamus’ mode. Nice to get one’s own back occasionally.

Normal service now resumed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 09:03 AM

Once again there is no analysis or context in the guido "report".

Reporting such lines as "according to two people involved" … were they the cleaners or the people who brought the coffees in!

Quoting Bloomberg sage sources …….. what sources, how does a right wing American news channel have sources suddenly elevated to be the font of all wisdom.

Is anyone silly enough to believe such "reporting". Really?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM

Every day for a while the Government has been telling us the five tests before easing of the lockdown.

Up until yesterday, the fifth test was

"no chance of a second wave"

Today it has been changed to

"no chance of a second that would overwhelm the NHS"

Fans of Animal Farm, please note!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:30 PM

2 legs 4 legs

No chance of a second wave?

Not sure how anyone could safely say that there is going to be no chance of a second wave.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM

I agree that the original of 'no chance of a second wave' was unrealistic, though they should have known that from the beginning. However the formulation they have gone for is both the earliest possible release and the highest risk option.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM

and of course since the first wave did not overwhelm the NHS, a second wave the same size would be acceptable within those tests.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:35 PM

At least there should be plenty of time to obtain, distribute and store sufficient PPE.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 02:15 PM

In other news today Arron Banks and Liz Bilney, the CEO of Leave.EU, follow in the footsteps of Darren Grimes by winning in the High Court against the Electoral Commission. Today the Electoral Commission agreed terms of settlement over the Electoral Commission’s announcement in November 2018 of its referral of Banks and Bilney to the National Crime Agency for further investigation.
This is the third Court case on the EU referendum and joins
-We send £350 million a week to the NHS - TRUE
-Darren Grimes did not break the law - TRUE
-Arron Banks did not break the law - TRUE

I wonder how much taxpayers money was squanndered pursuing these frivolous claims?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 03:18 PM

"In a statement released on Friday, the Met concluded there was insufficient evidence to justify further investigation of the group, which was set up by the insurance businessman Arron Banks.

“It is clear that whilst some technical breaches of electoral law were committed by Leave.EU in respect of the spending return submitted for their campaign, there is insufficient evidence to justify any further criminal investigation,” the statement said.

It added that Leave.EU’s responsible person for legal purposes, Liz Bilney, a business associate of Banks, would also face no further police action.

The investigation was launched after the Electoral Commission concluded in May 2018 that the group had committed multiple breaches of electoral spending law during the EU referendum and fined it £70,000.

The breaches included exceeding the legal spending cap by at least 10% and delivering incorrect spending and transactions records."
Metripoliton Police statement

Frivolous my arse

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 PM

24 September 2019 • 9:31am

Pro-Brexit campaigner Arron Banks has threatened to sue the Electoral Commission after he was cleared of any criminality over £8 million in EU referendum campaign funding.

In a statement, the National Crime Agency (NCA) said it had found no evidence that any criminal offences had been committed after the Electoral Commission referred what it described as multiple breaches of electoral spending law for investigation.

The NCA said it would therefore take no further action against Mr Banks, Leave.EU chief executive Liz Bilney or associated organisations.
Note the date!
The court case I referred to was 29April 2020
Mr Banks 1, Electoral Commission nil.
Not unfounded allegations but case proven in favour of Mr Banks in the High Court of Justice Queen's Bench Division.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:06 PM

The latest development is that inquests into the deaths of health care workers who fall victim of coronavirus have been instructed NOT to look at the issue of lack of PPE.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 04:07 AM

Coronavirus: New antibody test ‘with 99 per cent accuracy’ approved for use across Europe

This is good news, especially for the researchers. The sample size mentioned in the article sounds a little low to be confident of that 99% accuracy, but I am sure those who approved it have looked into it more thoroughly than I can.

There is a paragraph "Dr Clarke added the test was useful to authorities because it showed “how the virus has moved through the population” but added “for the general public it of no immediate utility.” I would echo that on what we know so far, because most people do not understand the relationship between test accuracy and the number of false results it gives. We do not know how widespread the virus is in the population, but if 5% of the population have it, a back of the envelope calculation would be that the test gives an incorrect result about 19% of the time. As we don't really know what the percentage of infection is, I have made an estimate based on the number of tests and the number of those that tested positive, but it is very rough and ready, because most asymptomatic people would not get tested, meaning the actual percentage who have had the virus could be a lot higher.

If we were getting the 20% false results, those medics involved in serious testing will understand that and treat it accordingly, but I am far from convinced the general public will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 04:15 AM

"Pro-Brexit campaigner Arron Banks has threatened to sue the Electoral Commission "
You'd think he was rich enough with his Brexit scam - people like that don't do anything from dedication or altruism

Some time ago we, who disapproved of the policies and actions of the right (including the British Tories) were accused of being 'Anglophobes'
The first time I became aware of the accuser's own opinion of Britain big time was when he attacked the British Courts for jailing Tommy Robinson for interfering with a British trial, he spent several postings publicising the then circulation of an on-line petition to "Free Tommy Robinson" - it was being circulated by Robinson's own organisation, a spin-off from the defunct National Front
So our 'Anglophobe' accuser appears to have an intense dislike of The British Justice System and its administrators

His contempt for The British Press is ongoing as he chooses to dismiss it in favour of a right-wing blogger with a criminal record who has a history of support for The National Front
So our souce of British information runs a poor second to a criminal blogger
The British Broadcasting Corporation has come under regular attack for broadcasting 'Fake News' - again, he prefers the criminal blogger
No time for Britisdh 'free speech' then

When the police arrested Tommy Robinson again for assaulting an innocent bystander at a swimming pool for no reason other than being there, they were accused by our defender of British honour as being biased and allowing a non-existent pedophile to go free (no evidence of peadofilia has ever emerged

Now the British police have come under attack again, this time for prosecuting someone who has fairly obviously breached the laws regarding the Brexit referendum - he has obviously done wrong but has covered his tracks well enough to hide the evidence
Had it been a Remain supporter in the case, there is little doubt that our 'Anglofile' would be carrying a rope and looking for the nearest tree
So our British Bobbies are both time and public money wasters and supporters of peadofilia
Oor British forces of Law and order are crap, it seems

When the Brexit fight got serious, our hero was insisting that those who were opposing the fight to leave were "traitors" and should be thrown out of Parliament - little respect for British Democracy there - it appears

Now he is gloating over the fact that our Brexit scam-artist is to sue Britain for interfering with his business interests - at a time when Britain is entering for an economic depression, thanks to a world-wide pandemic
Wonder what place the future of the British people during inevitable hard times rates on his like-dislike scale - not high, obviously - the making wealthier of someone with far too much already is far more important

It is difficult to see what exactly this Anglofile actually likes about Britain - not very much as far as I can see
Any suggestions ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM

The electoral commplaints Authority is supposed to have evidence before attempting a prosecuuution. Obviously they had none. Therefore the futile exercise was a waste of public money. They should all resign.

Now the British police have come under attack again, this time for prosecuting someone who has fairly obviously breached the laws regarding the Brexit referendum - he has obviously done wrong but has covered his tracks well enough to hide the evidence
The police do not prosecte and the rest of your accusation is simply defamaion. I hope you have deep pockets! r

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

"They should all resign.
"
Maybe the whole Government should resign and make room for your mate Tommy
Waddya think ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

"I hope you have deep pockets!"
Look forward to the extradition papers - bring it on
I think this confirms that you hate Britain far more than those you accuse of doing so
Great start to the day, I'd have thought
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

Look forward to the extradition papers - bring it on
Not near as much as I.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/a-click-from-the-courts-online-libel-never-easier-1.1252882

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM

Won't hold my breath - wind and pee, like the barber's cat
You know as well as I that this scumbag is a con-man and would not dare prod this sleeping giant
The fact that you defend him at a time when the British People are locked down fearing for their lives and worrying whether thay will have jobs puts you in his brackeT Patriotism - little Brit style writ large, I would say

A medical expert has saidd that the lock-down cannot be eased until (at the very least) The Government has a long-term plan for testing
At present they have no plan for tomorrow - only acute shortages of equipment
It's gonna be a long - long summer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:47 AM

Keep digging! You may think you have immunity.Defamation is defamation and actionable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 10:05 AM

80% of employees in the hospitality sector may have been furloughed. For arts and entertainment, it is at 67%, whilst construction and manufacturing come in at 40% and 29% respectively.
Only one local authority district in the country – Oxford – sees less than one in five employees furloughed, and even there the level is 19%. The overall rate of furloughing, across the country, is 27%.
British Airways will make 12,000 staff redundant despite the availability of an 80% wage subsidy.
This all suggests things will not be what they used to be at the end of lockdown.
Was the great depression but a walk in the park?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 10:34 AM

For arts and entertainment, it is at 67%

This is the only one of the sectors mentioned that I have any sort of connection with. I can tell you that Northern Ballet has furloughed all its dancers, orchestra and at least some of the permanent technical staff and is topping up the additional 20% of salary. There are other ancillary staff they have not mentioned in the newsletter I get, but I imagine many of them are not so fortunate. How long they can continue to pay that 20% has to be open to question.

Conversely, a lot of people in the arts are on short term contracts, to cover one particular film, show or whatever. All of the people I am in touch with in that position have had the contract terminated.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 01:07 PM

Johnson says that thee crisis has passed its peak but there will not be an easing of the lock-down
British Airways has suggested that it is considering abandoning Heathrow in future   
Ji,

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 06:18 PM

Gatwick, Jim, not Heathrow. BA is a very profitable company which is behaving disgracefully.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 20 - 01:56 AM

They should do it. We have a large airport not far from here, with A1, M1, and East Coast Main Line links, a huge runway (ex-Vulcan base), modern facilities, plenty of room for expansion, and currently very much under-used.

Contrary to the delusion most politicians and fackin’ satherners seem suffer from, the world doesn’t end beyond the M25.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 03:55 AM

"Heathrow"
I only heard it in passing, but I could have sworn Heathrow was mentioned ans being adversely effected - might have overdone the poitín
One of our regular posters wrote to me once boiling with anger about the new runway which was likely to lose him his home
I dropped him a line and am awaiting a reply
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:28 AM

Contrary to the delusion most politicians and fackin’ satherners seem suffer from, the world doesn’t end beyond the M25.

M25? That is well in the north for some of us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:32 AM

Just had conirmation that something is happening with Heathrow, though my mate says it is "posturing" on the part of BA

" the world doesn’t end beyond the M25."
'Course it doesn't it ends at the Naas Road - according to Dublin
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:47 AM

There was a young lady called Dinah
With a music box in her vagina
The boys they had larks
To the sweet sound of Bach's
Toccata and fugue in D minor

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Oops, me context has disappeared! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:50 AM

No it hasn't: I put this in the wrong thread. It should have gone in the Congratulations one. Think I'll go back to bed and get up again...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 06:21 AM

Hey Barb'ry, would you be kind enough to remove this and my previous three posts? I'm in the wrong thread don't y'know! Sorry...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:07 AM

What have I told you about drinking late Steve ?

Despite expert advice to the contrary and his own promised recently, Johnson has said that they will hold a cabinet meeting necxt week in order to get the lock-down ended as soon as possible for the sake of the British Economy
Priorities always were to the forefront in Tory policy, weren't they
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:25 AM

From the BBC

"The government will release a series of papers next week outlining its approach on how to safely and gradually restart the economy.
It invited submissions by Thursday from businesses, trade bodies, unions and other workers representatives on how best to slowly restart the UK economy.
It's thought the proposals will not be split bluntly by sector but by working environment.
But there is no confirmed date yet for when such a restart will occur."

How the government plans to get the UK back to work

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:33 AM

I see no medical ad advisors on that list RD
Possibly in line with the article in this morning's Times which says that "Politicians must have the final say" and there is nothing wrong with unelected non-experts like Scumminigs being a part of these decisions
One of the impressions his public appearances have left me with is that he isn't exactly a fastidious individual and doesn't put personal hygene on his list of 'must-dos'
I wonder if the attendees will ask for protective clothing - just a thought
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:50 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 08:23 AM

It's at times like this you reliase th importance to changing the electoral system to one that allows a voice to the parties that put the interests of people higher than that of the rich and powerful
To a degree, Ireland's PR system puts a brake on the right-wing parties by forcing them to justify themselves in the Dail - not the case in Britain
There it is a bear garden where opposition is shouted down and Parliamentarians behave like hooligan children regularly
Money matters should play no part in decisions of life and death such as when the lock-down should be relaxes - it is arrogant nonsense to suggest they should
This has to be a decision taken on scientific advice only
It is diversive crap to suggest that science is divided on this - it ****** isn't - the lockdown should be eased only when it is safe for it to be no matter what the economic consequences

It is true that the present economic structure may collapse - that structure began to do so with the widening wealth gap and the turning of plumbers, carpenters and electricians..... - all those who make our society's wheels revolve by providing the needs of everyday living, into "workers" forced into unsuitable jobs because their old ones are no longer profitable
Unfortunately, we don't live in a society that allows open debate on questions like this so we have to rely on good-will and the crumbs from the tables of others
Things cannot and will not return to where they were- they will eiher worsen or be changed out od necessity
Maybe this is a wake-up call

Happy Birthday Baccie - you don't look a day over 199
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 09:38 AM

I kinda get the feeling that you were not so keen on PR when UKIP were doing better in the polls Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 20 - 09:42 AM

I can't speak for Jim, but I always accepted that having UKIP, the BNP or whoever as part of the representation was the price you would have to pay for a proportional system. Even so, I support a proportional system.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 09:47 AM

I too think PR would be better BUT it would need politicians and political parties to change their attitudes. I don't see that happening too soon.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 10:06 AM

Not the parties Rain Dog - parliament as a whole
It is significant that, when the Newly formed Six Counties in Norther Irland began to flex their muscles in order to build a sectarina state, one of the first things they did was to abolish PR; First past the post = political dominnce over co-operation every time
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 08:47 AM

From the news today it seems that the business crown have wone the argument and economics does take priority over general well-being
A bit of "we won't relax till we know it's safe to do so" lip-service but a cabinet meeting of how to proceed early next week seems to suggest either that that is not the intention ot the arse doesn't know what the elbow is doing - either is possible
We'll see
It's far too early to relax in the U.K. - even Boris the Brainless knows that

The ail has now put forward a staged plan for returning to normal - the news-item said the UK is nowhere near in a position to do that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 01:15 PM

HOW ITHERS SEE HIM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 02:14 PM

It takes a special level of ignorance not to be able to tell the difference between Humanity, Intelligence AND EDUCATION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 02:39 PM

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/2XisSUc2zugK1AkPagHgEN/Joseph-Stalin-is-greatest-individual-of-all-time-according.html

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:23 AM

GREAT LEADER WITH A LORRA - LORRA SUPPORT
You pair have opted for insulting and populism rather than caring about the people who ahre sufferineg and dyind due to this crisis - populism rules Ok

Stalin was the second most popular leader in history, pipped at the post by Attila the Hun
Hitler was a close runner up
Mosely filled the streets of London with his thuggish supporters, demanding a 'final solution' to the Jewish problem - the owner of the Tory Daily Mail joined him in his campaign
Thatcher became a popular post war leader - she tore Britain in half before climbing into bed with a mass-murdering dictator wh she described as a hero of democracy - she helped him escape being tried for his crimes at the human rights court
In the end, she even became an embarrassment to he own right wing party, who dropped her like a hot turd newly out of the oven

If you pair are going to be a double-act (may as well talk to each other - nobody else is interested), you need to decide WHO is going to be WHO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:27 AM

populism rules Ok
Not often I   agree with   you but:
Populism   won    the    referendum
Populism put Boris in   power with a huge majority
Populism put Labour into the wilderess for a generation.
Whhat is there not to like about it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:47 AM

ANOTHER REMINDER of POPULAR LEADERS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 May 20 - 01:11 PM

It makes me laugh Iains, how these lefties consider this forum to be their own leftie shouting box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Better to make snide remarks as a pm directly to Iains rather than appear to be flame baiting!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 01:27 PM

"It makes me laugh Iains, how these lefties consider this forum to be their own leftie "
Shut up Archie and get back in your box
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:05 PM

Just a thought. Why would mods post as guests?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:10 PM

Because they posted as a group, rather than an individual, would be my guess.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:11 PM

And I think the less we comment on it, the better. For everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:14 PM

I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:16 PM

Anyway, I notice that the number of tests has fallen very sharply. I guess that's because the postman doesn't come on Sundays...

Lies, damn lies and Tory lies...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:26 PM

Hello mates - Much happening while I'm away from here spring cleaning my computers...???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPkKgrmgFTw

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:32 PM

Useless leftie crap continues!!

Stop. This could and probably would be looked at as trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:44 PM

Bonz - yeah.. all that useless lefty crap
about trying to make sure fewer folks suffer needlessly, and die too early...???

Mind you, I've not been reading this thread,
but that's my edumacated guess...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:41 PM

There has been a lot of media attention given to the fact Dominic Cummins attended SAGE(Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies) meetings on covid-19.
What is not so well known is that he blogged on related issues over a year ago.

March 4, 2019 by dominiccummings        
The most secure bio-labs routinely make errors that could cause a global pandemic & are about to re-start experiments on pathogens engineered to make them mammalian-airborne-transmissible

https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-abo

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:54 PM

Conspiracy theories rule OK, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:13 AM

Top scientists set up ‘shadow’ SAGE committee to advise government amid concerns over political interference

I am not sure anything will come of this - I can see political pressure being applied to convince the members that it 'may not be a good idea' - and I am sure they will end up advising the general public far more than the Government, who really do not want alternative views being aired.   But from a scientific viewpoint rather than a political one, it is akin to a peer review or a viva, and quite a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:27 AM

Hardly a   conspiracy theory, prescience perhaps. However it makes Mr Cummins ideally suited to tease out a way forward from a team of experts on covid-19 lockdown.
Perhaps we should let him loose on the Electoral Commission next. They seem to have been wrong on every turn in recent times, from Russian collusion to breaking electoral spending rules. Every windmill they tilted at ended up in losing and humiliation. Totally unfit for purpose.
https://thecritic.co.uk/remains-media-blob-complex/

Next we have the outcome of Banks suing Guardian journalist Carole Cadwalladr to look forward to. We shall see again who is telling the porkies!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:36 AM

DMcG The idea may have merit as an alternative sounding board but I wouldwant to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alonside their qualifications.
Question Time and Panorama are but two BBC programs breaking the BBC charter by omitting the labour activist background of certain of their interviewed "experts"

I suspct this latest wheeze is more of the same designed to contradict the government view and merely ending up totally confusing the public. A very bad idea and political mischief making of the highst order.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:48 AM

Maybe it should become mandatory for all those speaking on behalf of Government policy to reveal all the detains of their business connections and investment interests before being allowed to speak publicly on anything that they might benefit from ?
Now that should put a few fussy cats among the pigeons, when you remember the Hamltons and our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence
In a democratic society, political views should never be a cause for anybody being allowed to speak publicly unless those views are publicly offensive or break the law of the land
I really can't remember anything in Labour policy being offensive to anybody other than the super-rich and to date, kit is still perfectly legal to want to make the world a better place for all
Long may that continue to be the case

"Useless leftie crap continues!!"
I take it the mods have noted this and will live up to their stated intentions?
Jim Carroll

---

Perhaps you could learn a lesson from PFR, who responded with his usual wisdom and humo(u)r. -Mod-

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:50 AM

Must do something about this keyboard :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:58 AM

t I would want to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alongside their qualifications.

In short, you want it to be seen as a political group, not a scientific one, because then you can claim the arguments are being made on political grounds?

No, the political affiliations are not relevant. The test of the quality of their conclusions must be in the transparency of their minutes and reporting. When they reach a conclusion that the R value is still above 1, for example, they need to show on what basis the yconclude that. It is not relevant if they are a Union representative or a Conservative Lord ennobled for his scientific contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:12 AM

Having looked a little more at the areas the alternative SAGE (Parsley?) will be looking at, one will be tracking applications. I think we can make a clear scientific and political distinction there.

Apple, Google, and the EU all favour a decentralised database mechanism: no body has access to all the data. The UK government favours a centralised one, where it has access to all the data (and the potential market value of that is high), but they promise they will not take advantage of that.

Technically, both approaches work. So on scientific grounds, they are virtually equivalent. Politically they are very different.

So I would expect the alternative SAGE to be examining how to make it work, what the effects of a 50/60/70/80 percent take up is and so forth. I would not expect them to be focusing on the centralised-decentralised question except in so far as it affects take-up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:19 AM

DMcG How do you   separate the politics from the science when the body is deliberately set up to be in opposition to the government?
Do the two bodies have the same objective? If not they are in opposition. If not in opposition, why duplicate?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:50 AM

I think my previous post gives a good example of how you separate the two. But I dispute the assertion it was set up to oppose. It is set up to independently review the data.   The government's conclusion is an amalgamation of the scientific, the business and the political advice. That is their right, and it is their duty to do so. All this group does is give a clearer picture of the scientific part of the advice. That means the government will need to say 'our decision is' rather than 'we are following the science.' In short, the new group is not opposing the government at all: it is simply encouraging government to accept its role in the decision making rather than passing the buck to SAGE.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:02 AM

The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything
To attempt to quash any form of opposition, organised or otherwise, would be tantabountt to dicatorship   led b an elite and controlled by an non-elected advisor with the power to frog-march anyone who opposes them off the premises
The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:23 AM

”The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy“

Agreed, Jim. But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future. And if by some miracle it does, the Conservative Smear-Machine will swing in to action, along with their Three-Word-Slogan-Writer, in order to turn the heads of the easily-distracted and feeble-minded amongst us.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:26 AM

DMcG   Iam afraid we willhave to disagree. The proposer for this alternative body is a former Labour chief scientific officer.
Try to convince me his motivees are entirely altruistic. I ain't buying into it. Chief meddler is how I view him. One set of experts is quite enough.His background is chemistry anyway - nowt to do with epidemiology or medicine. About as useful as bringing a brain surgeon to the meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:37 AM

His background is chemistry anyway

Maybe he is a good facilitator!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:47 AM


The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything

First one has to find the opposition!
They seek him here, they seek him there.................

There is no opposition. We have the hard left, the soft left, the don't know left and the militants, and even they have split. What we have is splinters splintering. Even a vivid imagination cannot construct an oppositionn out of that!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:09 AM

"But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future."
And there never will be if some people have their way
I think this virus wil hopefully bring out a clear view of what happens when incompetent and elitist people are given a free hand
Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whip
The workers at the front haven't yet got the protection equipment they need or the testing facilities necessary to cope with the present situation - never the possibility of an increase in casualties should this massive leap in the dark be forced through
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:12 AM

I see a thread has been opened which described the isolation of children as possible virus carriers as "ageist" for crying out loud
Who let Donald Trump onto this forum - his tweets get everywhere
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:15 AM

You might want to look at that thread again Jim. Simple typo

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:18 AM

The government do need to be looking at relaxing the restrictions. There is a need for people to get back to work.

Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown. It is not going to be a quick or easy return to work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:30 AM

That may or may not be so, Rain Dog. But if so, the statement needs to be "The Government has decided that is how to balance the competing interests" not "we are following the scientific advice."

Ending the lock down is no simple matter. Unless the public actually believe it to be safe, they may voluntarily stay locked down, to a substantial extent. There is no point opening restaurants, for example, if people don't feel safe going to them. In fact, it will probably cause them to fail, as - probably - the government support via furlough etc will come to an end, and insufficient customers return to make the restaurant viable. Remember every restaurant in the country has a certain number of tables and a planned occupancy. If you reduce the number of tables there may not be enough capacity even if the restaurant is full to cover all the costs. If the occupancy also goes down the business model is wrecked.   A local restaurant has sold vouchers for £100 which will buy £150s worth when they reopen. Good to keep them operating during the shut down, but yet another cost to cover when they reopen.

And that is just restaurants. You could make a similar case for lots of other venues, small businesses and groups. When the lock down ends, I will happily go to visit sites like RSPB Arne. Going to a cinema is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:31 AM

"Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown"
Nowhere near as the dead ther will be if this becomes a "rush to judgement" RD
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:32 AM


Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whipO

Are you merely voicing an opinion or do you have facts to substantiate your allegations? Those are very serious charges against the democratically elected government. It would presume the tail is wagging the dog. I do not think Mr Cummins would stand for that!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM

Jim,

Who is the "our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence"?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM

Reclaiming sovereignty seems to be gaining in popularity. What future for Schengen now?


https://unherd.com/2020/05/how-covid-19-is-hardening-our-borders/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:14 AM

Nightingale Hospital will be put on "standby" status from tomorrow, which underlines how serious this threat remains - not an ""opinion" echoed or otherwise - a fact
There can be no thought of easing the restrictions while such a situation exists
"'let off the hook' villain"
Been there, done that - he's one of many that stretch back decades in this 'old boy' society that protects their own
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:40 AM

Guido has dug out the background of the alternative SAGE
as expected a bunch of lefty troublemakers.
We wil start with just two:

Chair: Sir David King

    Disastrously advised Blair and Brown to promote diesel cars
    Lost his job as the Government’s Special Representative for Climate Change under Boris as Foreign secretary. Subsequently emerged as a leading critic of Boris
    Promoted the conspiracy theory that Boris and Brexit are ‘alt right’
    Complained that the Conservative Government didn’t put him on the media enough with regards to climate change, telling the Guardian “It was absurd. Here was Britain doing more than almost the rest of the world put together on this issue and I’m kept off the public airwaves”
    Pushed for a second EU referendum

ages Professor Susan Michie

    Member of the British Communist Party of 40 years
    Donated £14,000 to the Labour Party under Corbyn
    Wife of former Corbyn SpAd Andrew Murray
    Mother of Labour’s Head of Complaints Laura Murray

https://order-order.com/2020/05/04/not-independent-activist-stuffed-shadow-sage/
I wonder how much their hot air will add to global warming?

You know, adding comments like 'leftie troublemakers' could be construed as flame bait or even trolling. Just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:56 AM

Indeed it is not going to be easy DMcG and I don't envy anyone who has to decide on how to go about it.

I am still working myself though the situation is not looking too good. Hopefully I will have a job for another few months at least. I work alone in the office 4 days a week. Walking to work each day I pass all the closed shops and wonder how it will ever be economic for them to restart trading if the social distancing remains in force. The job furlough scheme is only set to run until the end of June at the moment. If it ends then I can see a lot of people being laid off from work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:59 AM

You haven't told me who the "villain" is, Jim. If you don't want to name names here, you can PM me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:31 AM

Happy to talk to you anywhere Weer - you can find reference to his caase here
30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM
A further clue HERE
It should be remembered that the feller attacking the police was the one claiming they were't doing their duty when a friend attacked an innocent bystander at a swimming pool the same feller supported a perition when the same thug was jailed for interfering with the course of a trial
At a tiime like this, the last thing we need is the undermining of the credibility of the forces of law and order, let alone calling for them to be sued at a time when Britain is probably about to enter a financial slump   
Sorry - didn't really want to pursue this
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:50 AM

Indeed, RD. I hope things work out for you. It is a tough time all round, but likely to get a lot tougher, I fear.

I was thinking about another small business nearby. They are a costume-hire company, and something like three quarter of their trade is to individuals attending themed parties, and the remaining quarter to amateur (or occasionally professional) acting companies. Any amateur group performing a play set in historical times within about 70 miles is likely to visit them or one or other of a small number of competitors. They are not your typical high street fancy dress company selling plastic throw aways - they have a number of the original Star Wars costumes for example, costing hundreds to hire.

If the lock down doesn't end with a vaccine that people trust, who is throwing those parties? If am-dram can't perform, they won't be hiring. And in any case, do you fancy wearing something that others have been wearing for hours, even after extensive cleaning?

I can't see they will survive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:53 AM

Just noticed in a live feed that:

… Michie, who is also a member of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza group on behaviour, which feeds into the official government Sage...

That's the Professor Michie, the one with 40 year membership of the Communist Party, you know. So she is clearly acceptable to the Government as a source of advice via SPI-B, with or without Guido's approval.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:57 AM

Seems to be a direct personal attack on me! How else can it be read?

I read it as a simple mistake by Jim when copying and pasting the date. His post, immediately before yours, at 4:15 AM, is the one that made the reference to the case.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:04 AM

I believed Jim was referring to Aaron Banks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:34 PM

Personal attack - wot me ?
Can't find it so I presume the accusation wa deleted
I certainly made none intentionally here

Worth reminding people that the Communist Party remains a legal organisation in Britain (and will continue to be while it remains as inept and as harmless as it has been for a long time)
Guido, on the other hand, is a convicted criminal blogger with connections to extremist organisations on the fringes of the law and a reputation for supporting fanatical mass murderers of Norwegian extraction
Just thought I'd mention it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:39 PM

It would seem that Pitri Patel is not alone in employing bullying tactics to get her own way.

Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy after using House of Commons notepaper to support his fathers dispute over a loan. It is reported he made "veiled threats"

I wonder if his actions will be condemned by all on here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:56 PM

Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy

All of the people on this and similar threads probably follow politics a lot more closely than the average UK citizen, but I have to admit my first reaction was: Conor Burns? Who is that? What, Minister? Trade Policy? How is he so anonymous?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 01:11 PM

NASTY PIECE OF WORK - TYPICAL of OUR GLORIOUS LEADERS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:35 PM

He's an arse, that's for sure. But what Tory MP isn't? I mean, why else would you be a Tory MP?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:08 PM

Somebody told me today that liberal Democrats in the U.S. would be considered conservative in the U.K. - and that's something I've heard here over and over again. You mean, like U.S. Democrats are like Tories? Like Boris Johnson?
Seems to me, Boris Johnson and Trump could be twin brothers. And Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan could have been womb-mates.

I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:05 AM

joe. could be his support for the iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:35 AM

Bliar Blair lied to the British people. Sexed up dossiers on weapoms of mass destruction were on his watch. Nothing   less than a   pack of lies to justify an illegal war. He also has to answer questions on the death of Doctor David Kelly, an internationally recognised expert on WMD who held very different views on the potential threat   and readiness of the   Iraqi   Forces compared to Blair
Even members of his own party despise Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:10 AM

Joe, I think you’ll find that most dislike him because of his support for the second Gulf War - y’know, Dubya, the ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction‘ lie, etc. - and also because he veered away from what are regarded as true Socialist principles - by introducing university tuition fees, advancing John Major’s PFI initiative in the NHS, and the sale of half of our gold reserves when the market price was at rock-bottom, etc.

But what Blair had was wide public appeal - whether the hard-lefties like it or not, his personality was a major factor in making Labour electable. People liked ‘our mate Tony’ and Labour’s main problem now is that, in these days of ‘Personality-Politics’, they have no-one with the personal appeal to compete with the image that the Conservative propaganda-machine has managed to falsely create around Johnson, persuading former Labour-voters that a philandering, xenophobic, racist serial-liar, controlled by a sociopathic ‘unelected bureaucrat’ with little dress-sense or interest in personal grooming, is ‘a great guy’, and ‘one of the lads’.

Until Labour find a leader with the same kind of appeal that Blair brought to the party back in the ‘90s - someone who can control the hard-left, make sense of the ‘policy-diarrhœa’ of the last two general elections, and slay the nonsensical ‘Antisemitism’ dragon - I’m afraid they will have to resign themselves to being a (currently very weak) opposition. Sadly, there doesn’t seem to be anyone amongst the hierarchy with the appropriate attributes, which cannot be good for our politics

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:11 AM

"I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters."
Not just mMdcatters
He like Thatcher, Enoch Powell and others became an embarrassment to their parties and despised by the people for their having lied and conned their wat to the top
Blair (B-liar) lied about weapons of mass destruction and involved Britain in an oil war that continues to destabalise the planet   
Tories make a big thing of him being 'Labour' (see immediately above) bt, while he may have started his political life with socialist, he gradually becamme a career politician, swung sharp right and out Toried the worst aspects of the Tories
'New Labour' was to Labour ideals as 'National Socialism' was to the real socialism of providing a better life and equality of the People as a whole - a hi-jacking of a title - In some way as genuinely democratic as your own 'Democrats' (look up the true meaning of the term)
"why else would you be a Tory MP?"
Money !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:47 AM

The   average   tory thought thatcher was the best   thing sice sliced bread. She should have a statue in every town and the miracles she performed with the british economy should gain her a sainthood.
All hail the mighty thatcher!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:37 AM

Thatcher befriended a proven mass murders, fought to prevent him being tried for his horrific crimes and described him, because of his actions in Chile as "a hero of democracy" - those facts on Thatcher's 'love affair' with a facist dictator have never been disputed, then or since, even by her own party - the leaders of which allowed themselves to be herded into a Westminster Hall draped in crossed Chilean and British flags, to pay tribute to this monstrous thug, finally dropped her like a piece of hot shit and left British humanitarians with one of the fondest memories ever FONDEST MEMORIES EVER
   
The actions Thatcher described as "democratic" were, to overthrow a legally elected and popular government, to murder its leader, to round up many thousands of mainly students and young workers and herd them into Santaigo Stadium where they were tortured and murdered in their uncountable thousands
The young women were all systematically raped, many of them were sexually disfigured with knives and bayonets before having their throats cut
The many thousand dead were never fully counted as most of them became "the great disappeared" - still remembered and mourned in Chile
Folk singer, Victor Jara was indentified as such, singled out and had his hands crushed by a rifle butt, before being murdered

There - but for the grace of what remained of common decency in the Tory Party, would have gone Thatcher's "Democratic Britain" (try visualising defiant miners in place of Chilean students)

Can there possibly ne anybody here who disputes any of that - or who regrets the passing of the threat of Thatcher's "democracy" being foisted on Britain - any takers ??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:38 AM

Oh - and does she represent "the avarage Tory's pin-up girls
I would love a "yes" to that one - Nigel, Stanron
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:48 AM

Thatcher pin up girl of the tories. The 7th longest serving PM of all time. Still the most popular party in the UK and has driven labour to virtual extinction. A job well done I would say. Now we have the mighty Boris leading us even further away from the scorched earth labour wastelands. He is ever more popular in the polls whereas starmer the charmer is ever declining in popularity,and this is still his honeymoon period. Does not bode well for labour!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:10 AM

Which proves that troll posts don't necessarily have to be in the shape of personal attacks. Infantile provocation is no better, in m'humble...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:24 AM

Having established exactly what Thatcher stood for beyond question I'm delighted to find that Iains and I have now reached mutula agreement on at least this   
Those are the values of the present incumbent in Number 10 and those are the inbred values of the Tory Party - I have little doubt that they are also Iains's own values as he refuses to condemn them or even acknowledge their importance
An excellent way to start today's discussion
I refuse to believe they they are the values of the British people, but I'm prepared to consider any argument

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

THATCHER'S TAKE on DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:36 AM

I was having a discussion earlier today. The topic for debate is "The new app for coronavirus tracing will develop into an electronic version of a government ID card and be used for such purposes well after the virus threat has been reduced to a low level or eliminated."

Thoughts, please, especially on why this will not happen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:41 AM

“Thatcher was Britain’s most important politician of the postwar era, her only rival for that title being Clement Attlee, creator of the welfare state. Her critics forget or ignore just how parlous was the state of Britain in 1979, and offer no credible policy alternatives about how the country could have been saved from union tyranny, hugely inefficient and loss-making state-owned industries, the stagnation of enterprise.

Her contribution to making Britain once more a viable proposition is almost impossible to overstate"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:16 AM

As is a reply to her tendcy towards fascism - apparently
Mussolini made Italy's trains run on time until he and his lover were strung up to a lamp-post by the Italian people
Hitler was beloevd by the German people until he was forced to take a cyanide pill in bunker in Berlin
You missed a bit out of yyour quote, by the way - it continues:
By her third term, she was displaying a worsening stridency and even irrationality, vividly reflected in stubborn adherence to the poll tax when its unpopularity was manifest, and in her opposition to German reunification. Such behaviour caused her downfall.
None of which alters the facts about her fascism, of course

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people
Game, set and match, I thing
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:25 AM

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people ???????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:26 AM

Mac
The exitance of other forms of information gathering, from internet gathering, mobile phone and computer tracking and commonplace street and inside cameras, along with recorded information, from councils, the police, Social services, MI5, Supermarkets... et al, virtually renders the carrying of identity cards irrelevant - here certainly - more so in the US
Things once invented about the old Soviet Union during The Clod War are and a part of everyday life in 'The Free West' for a long time
Nowadays, you can't wipe your arse without some official somewhere knowing which hand you used
Too late to worry about it now, I'm afraid

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:36 AM

The United Kingdom last had compulsory national identity cards during the Second World War when they were introduced for security purposes. They were introduced under the the National Registration Act 1939, but were abandoned seven years after the end of that war, in 1952, amid widespread public resentment.
Labour made an attempt to reintroduce ID cards but the incoming Tory government repealed the legislation.
Any further attempts to introduce compulsion will e met with the same resistance.
As "The Prisoner said":
I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:21 AM

I am now getting messages from Gmail asking me if I would like to send a reminder to the person I wrote to a few weeks earlier that they haven't replied yet
Worth a book if George Orwell hadn't pipped us all at the post seventy years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Iains already declared game, set, match. Yet the beat goes on?
In this game there is no such thing as checkmate.
Should we wish for a checkmate?
In 1349 not even a 60%
death rate pandemic
defeated England.
England won.

Who wins now?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 10:32 AM

"In this game there is no such thing as checkmate."
There shouldn't be but unfortunately when your points are ignored and stonewalled you are reduced to just posting what you believe to be true to whoever is interested and just accept that those you address your arguments to have no answer
Not a satisfactory way to debate but a victory of logic of sorts
Would that things were different
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:23 PM

So now it's been announced that the UK has the highest number of deaths from Corona virus in Europe.

I wonder if our supporters of the present government consider that they could have dealt with the situation in such a way that some of these deaths could have been avoided.



Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:25 PM

So much doom and gloom. Isn't their a table for those who have recovered?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:36 PM

The question we have to ask Bonzo is would there be less gloom and doom had the government responded differently. It has been suggested that this is the case and thus the government should be held responsible for some, not all, of the deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:47 PM

I regard 30,000 deaths, with no foreseeable end to the ever-rising toll, as very good cause for doom and gloom. Who but a hard-hearted, soulless monster wouldn’t?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:53 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems, how many were boozers with big health problems, how many were smokers with big health problems, how many simply refused to comply with distancing rules????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:00 PM

Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

You   obviously do, otherwise why   comment???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:02 PM

Ah, I forgot to include ‘victim-blamer’ in that list of nauseatingly-unpleasant character-defects.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:08 PM

it is now being reported that SAGE got documents today showing that false negatives and false positives will be a problem. It should not exactly be news to them as I first pointed out the problem here on 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM, and it was not great insight of mine: it is basic stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:09 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems,..............
"Of those requiring advanced respiratory treatment, 39% were obese, compared to 25% who had a healthy weight. Of those needing basic respiratory support, 37% were obese. Again, 25% had a healthy weight.

Further studies in the UK, New York, and China have also suggested an association between obesity and the coronavirus, and are being looked at by British ministers and experts.

A study by the Coronavirus Clinical Characterisation Consortium of people hospitalised with the virus in Britain found that the risk of death was 37% higher in obese patients.

Another study in New York found that severely obese people were six times more likely to be hospitalised with COVID-19. Obese people were four times more likely.

A study in China found that people with obesity could be three times more likely to develop severe pneumonia.

According to a report published by the Italian National Institute of Health, a study on a small sample of COVID-19 patients found that obesity was an underlying condition in some of those under the age of 50 who died, but the report doesn't draw any conclusions either way.

SAGE scientists are exploring potential “mechanisms” that could show a causal relationship between obesity and having more severe symptoms of COVID-19, including the potential for the increased inflammatory response in obese people to exacerbate symptoms of the virus.

Sources familiar with SAGE’s work stressed to BuzzFeed News that there was currently not sufficient evidence to prove that obesity itself resulted in increased mortality, and that more research needed to be done. They said that severely obese people are often likely to have other comorbidities that could be responsible for any worse symptoms.

Older people, men, black and Asian people, and those from socially deprived backgrounds were also seeing worse outcomes, the ICNARC data showed."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:38 PM

Thank you Iains, that's very interesting indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:54 PM

Bonzo, Irrespective of other issues their deaths have been recorded as being caused specifically by the virus. They may not have died (yet) had the government reacted in a speedy manner.

The "yet" is there because we all die eventually, we just like to put if off for as long a possible, normally.

So how about addressing how the government have signally failed in their responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:59 PM

Incidentally Farage has been "spoken to" by the police for visiting Bournemouth. He claimed he was a "key worker" !!!

What an a...……………… !

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:01 PM

Well it's hardly surprising, as obesity is quoted as an underlying condition with regard to the aggravation of heart disease, diabetes, etc., as well. Making the point that obese people may suffer worse from Coronavirus is valid. But just leave it there, eh? Well, unless you want to blame "fatties" for eating too many pies and fish suppers, of course, and telling us that they deserve all they get....

As for politicians and telling lies, well of course. But using the phenomenon to make some kind of distinction twixt Tory and Labour is simply dishonest. The other day, apropos of the last day of April, we were told by the Tories that the 100,000 tests per day target had been achieved, but it was a bare-faced lie, as around a third of those "tests" were merely test kits still in transit. Since then, the testing numbers have failed to reach that target every day, as I recollect. Best to accept that, to be a success in politics, you have to be quite good at spinning, bending the truth, putting on the best gloss, accentuating the positive...and, why, even telling lies...

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war. Millions of us on the street, holding hands, singing songs and waving banners, knew bloody well that Blair was lying. Perhaps the Tories were all just a bit too thick to see it. Or, instead, rather liked the idea of kicking Iraqi arse...

I can't decide which is worse, lying or hypocrisy...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:16 PM

Smoking is frowned upon and now banned in many places because it causes canncer and many other medical conditions. Why should
obesity be given a clean slate? it is equally damaging to health and caused by gluttony (apart from a minority with medical conditions)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:43 PM

UK wants to improve privacy safeguards for the tracking application. You can read the reasons, but an important one, as I said earlier, is that if people don't trust the app will protect privacy, less will download it, so it will be less effective. This is a human factors issue, less than a technical one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're old.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're poor.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're black.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in an urban area.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in a care home.

If you're overweight, or if you smoke, or if you drink too much, or if you sleep on the street, or if you don't exercise, sure, I'm going to give you a clean slate. Why? Because, like all the rest of us, you didn't live your life making a calculation about a virus that suddenly threatens us. In some ways I could be given to thinking that it's a shame that the virus doesn't preferentially attack the intolerant, the privileged and the bigoted. But I'll go high and, well, think like a human being instead.

Grand if you see anger in this post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:05 PM

And, by the sound of it, you are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're living in the UK. And the UK has been run by Tories for the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:22 PM

Thank Clapton for that !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:32 PM

But I do blame the government for not ruling a weekly intake of treacle pudding and custard as added protection against the virus!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 02:54 AM

According to some reports Rishi Sunak is preparing to wind down coronavirus furlough scheme from July.

There was only ever one rationale for the scheme: to ensure the businesses concerned and the people furloughed stayed together to ease the businesses restarting. So unless the lockdown is released enough for that to happen, all the money concerned has been thrown away for no purpose. And then the whole population must feel confident enough to use the services these businesses provide. And they must, of course, have enough money to do so.

As we have said before, reopening the economy is no simple matter.   But to end or reduce the furlough scheme without very precise targeting will have wasted the whole idea - which, let us recall, most of the "lefties" on these thread welcomed, and did the "righties". (It was on the previous incarnation, I think. Or possibly the one before, I lose track.)

There has been some essentially pointless speculation of what would have happened if Labour had won the election. One thing I am certain of is that had Labour won, and pursued exactly the financial policy Rishi Sunak did, we would hear that "Labour came in, wrecked the budget, forced businesses to the wall and created mass unemployment" for the next thirty years or so...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 03:44 AM

"You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man."
Everything on your list and much more can be applied to mot other ailment in Britain today Steve - you may add general life expectancy to that list
Sam Larner had it summed up perfectly with the old Norfolk rhyme

"If health were a thing that money could buy
The rich would live and the poor would die"

Things have got worse rather than better - pretty provable with statistics too

The main problem now, Car homes, appears to bear out the accusations that Dom the Scumbag suggested that the weakest and most vulnerable in society should be sacrificed for the 'greater good' - it seems to be 'coming to pass' even though it was vehemently denied by the nodding dogs
The Government appears also to be dancing to big Business's tune and pushing through a relaxation of security measures while the crisis is still at it's peak
Madness
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:05 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM
Why the anger?? are you overweight?
As the Clinical Director of the Weight Management and Wellness Center at Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh and Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine has said:
"Telling overweight people that eating too much is the root cause of their problem is met with disappointment, denial, and even anger.
Why is it so hard for some people to accept they are obese because they eat too much? Consider that I’ve never heard of a patient with lung cancer or emphysema deny having smoked too much. Nor have I even once heard of a patient with a sexually transmitted disease claim to be chaste, but obesity and its indisputable connection to overeating has much worse implications. The Catholic Church divided sin into two categories: venial or minor, and capital or deadly. Gluttony, together with lust, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, is among the latter."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:22 AM

The main problem now, Car homes
My   car does not have a home. My garage is used   for far   more important things.   I   would have thought covid-19    was   a tad more of a problem. Perhaps all   the rain in the west of Ireland creates a different perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Moderator, I know the post hasn't been there for very long, but please consider removing the troll post of 04.05 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:05 AM

Jim, in line (I think) with the sentiment of your post, the point I'm trying to make is that the middle of a pandemic (one incidentally, that is much worse in this country than it needs to be because of the Tory government's ineptitude) is not the time to start pointing fingers at people with medical conditions, whatever their cause. A fundamental principle of the NHS is that it doesn't judge. You won't be turned away suffering from a heart attack or diabetes because you weigh 18 stones. You won't be refused treatment for lung cancer or COPD because you've been a smoker. You get the same treatment as everyone else. You may be given friendly advice as to your lifestyle. We acknowledge that bad lifestyle choices can arise through poverty, ignorance or poor education. Instead of bollocking people for being obese, I could instead say (I won't) that we should shut down all KFCs and McShitteries and supermarket cake aisles...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:41 AM

Totally in line with what I'm saying Steve
All I would add is that if this emergency were to end tomorrow (it won't of course), it's repercussions will be felt for a long time, probably decades
One of the major dangers is that the government, given it's built-in philosophy, will attempt to pay for those repercussions by putting the pressue on those who can least afford it
Does anybody seriously believe the wealthy will be asked to dig into their bank-balances to make up for what the nation is already losing ?
Yes - you can get cancer treatment without hving your history dragged in - how long is that likely to last when the purse holders are having to prioritise
This is why I added the Dom the Div policy to my posting

Just read about the Irish/Choctaw nation charity - still wiping the tears from my eyes
Surely the most human story to emerge from thois virus mess
Might open a thread on it as a morale booster - it shows the world is still lagely populated by human beings

CHOCTAW NATION CHARITY
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:15 AM

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war.
The actual vote:
Labour Party (254), Conservative Party (146), Ulster Unionist Party (6), Democratic Unionist Party (5), Independent Conservative (1)


It would be more correct to say that for every Tory supporter there were nearly   2 labour supporters of the motion. Labour having an 88 seat   overall majority. (how times change!)
Silver tongued tony obviously had a way with words.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:38 AM

Two Tory MPs voted against and 17 abstained. 84 Labour MPs voted against and 67 abstained. Quoting the actual numbers is better than providing circuitous interpretations. And Labour's parliamentary overall majority was 167. Glad to be of help.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:56 AM

And I'd have been better saying that the overwhelming majority of Tories voted for the war. When I said "almost every Tory MP" I remembered the two demurrers but neglected to include abstentions. But my point stands. In fact, a far greater proportion of Tory MPs than Labour MPs supported the war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:03 AM

And Labour's parliamentary overall majority was 167.>

Thus times change even more. Thank you for making the point even more dramatic.
How far have the "mighty" fallen!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:42 AM

It’s the nature of politics - things change. And sooner or later, they change back. There’s nothing permanent in the political world - remember the well-deserved fate of The Beast of Grantham, shafted by her own cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:59 AM

remember the well-deserved fate of The Beast of Grantham, shafted by her own cronies.

or more recently the corbynated clown, rightly shafted by the informed British Electorate

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:09 AM

The wrong man for the job. ‘Twas ever thus.
But things change in politics, and change again they will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:18 AM

"And sooner or later, they change back"
Actually that's not exactly true Baccie
Things seldom, if ever return to where they were, especially after a crisis
Incredible progress was made in Britain after WW1 much of which was lost by the depression
The role of women (albeit upper and middle class ones) never really returned to as they were, but it took a deal with the devil on the part of the Suffragettes to send young man to their deaths in the tranches to achieve that small step
World War Twe gave us the Welfare State and other advantages never quite whittled away by the Tories since, but they'r doing their best
Conservationism by definition means keeping things as they are
Our present Tory supporter is a case in point - he would rather talk about 17 year old Labour politics rather than the cock-ups that are being made as we speak

Johnson has just apologised for the inexcusable care-home fiasco and his colleague is still defending the equally fiascopic testing non-policy
I don't believe history repeats itself but, with the Tories, some things never change, as we are learning daily, to our cost
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:55 AM

he would rather talk about 17 year old Labour politics rather than the cock-ups that are being made as we speak

As a response to a   30 year old Tory politics being dredged up actually.
Johnson has just apologised for the inexcusable care-home fiasco and his colleague is still defending the equally fiascopic testing non-policy
Care homes have always been very vulnerable to infection, hardly surprising as they house people with health conditions. If able bodied they would be unlikely to be in a care home. At least in the UK the risk is recognised and acted on - unlike Spain where some care homes were abandoned and the residents left to die.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/corpses-elderly-abandoned-spanish-care-homes-200324141255435.html
Hardly a care home fiasco after all the risk to vulnerable members of society is well known and the NHS has produced leaflets specifically targeting care homes.
https://phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/beat-flu/resources/other/beat-flu-information-pack-for-care-homes-english/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM

A similar "fiasco" in Ireland but he utters not a word


https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0501/1135937-coronavirus-ireland/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM

People are now dying in Care Homes possibly because Johnson is following Scumming's suggestion that they should be a low priority - not thirty years ago - NOW
Perhaps you might like to discuss the generation that was unnecessarily slaughtered in WW1 - that seems to be the direction your heading to ?
Or maybe whataboutism is more your metier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 09:07 AM

>I>People are now dying in Care Homes possibly because Johnson is following Scumming's suggestion that they should be a low priority - not thirty years ago - NOW



You   can hardly make Boris or the esteemed Mr Cummins responsible for what happens in Ireland as well. Surely even you cannot believe that, or can you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 09:28 AM

"Care homes have always been very vulnerable to infection, hardly surprising as they house people with health conditions."

Care homes are vulnerable to infection because there are very high levels of staffing who are coming and going 24/7 in shifts, and because quite large numbers of people are close together, and because it's a challenge keeping on top of the stringent hygiene requirements, both personal and communal. It doesn't help that the staff are just about the lowest-paid in the land, receive only the most basic training and are daily confronted with some tasks that many of us would find unpleasant.

You are not necessarily more vulnerable to infection simply because you have "health conditions," though you may suffer more severely should you acquire an infection. The distinction between your remark and the reality is the very reason we have such a crisis now in care homes. The care-nothing Tories expect the oldies to get more bugs and just shrug. Had the reality been faced up to at the beginning of this crisis, we wouldn't have the devastating situation in care homes that we now have.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:14 AM

"Mr Cummins responsible for what happens in Ireland as well."
You mean the generosity that is being shown by the Irish people of course
They certainly aren't responsible for the humanity that still exists here - their types tried to wipe that out with starvation a century and a half ago

What Seve said about overworked, underpaid and unappreciated care-home workers - with knobs on
One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly - despite right wing Governments and a somewhat indifferent younger generation that probably lost that respect through emigration and picking up bad habits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:24 AM

The care-nothing Tories expect the oldies to get more bugs and just shrug. Had the reality been faced up to at the beginning of this crisis, we wouldn't have the devastating situation in care homes that we now have.

So let me get this right. It is all the tories fault.

According to the Guardian Belgium counts all coronavirus deaths outside hospitals in its daily statistics: deaths in care homes account for 53% of the total.
According to the Irish Times:Nursing homes account for 50 per cent of coronavirus deaths in Ireland
The guardian again:Snapshot data from varying official sources shows that in Italy, Spain, France, Ireland and Belgium between 42% and 57% of deaths from the virus have been happening in homes, according to the report by academics based at the London School of Economics (LSE).
Those tories get everywhere do they not?
OR is your allegation just a totally unfounded slur on the government efforts. Even the lefty Guardian cannot support your accusation!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:43 AM

Care homes contain a lot of older people who are more at risk from dying from the virus.

Social care is something that needs to be looked at. It has been avoided by most governments here in the UK. It would be nice to think that the major parties would try to get together to come up with a long term plan. I am not sure that I will live long enough to ever see that happening in the UK. Whichever party is in charge they seemed happy enough to leave it for the next government to tackle.

Jim posted his usual "One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly - despite right wing Governments and a somewhat indifferent younger generation that probably lost that respect through emigration and picking up bad habits"

Streets ahead? I don't think so. Then you blame that on right wing (do you ever see any other sort?) governments, and emigration? MMmmm now I wonder which country that they emigrate to that is the cause of that?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:45 AM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian. Elsewhere it is being reported:

Of Belgium’s registered deaths, 44 percent died in hospital (and were tested). The majority, 54 percent, died in a nursing home — and only in 7.8 percent of those cases was COVID-19 confirmed as the cause. (Yes, I know 44%+54% is less than a 100% - some deaths are in neither hospital nor care homes.)


Agreed, then, 54% are in nursing homes. But less than ten percent are confirmed to be because of covid-19, if those other reports are correct.

Everyone, including in these threads and the government spokesmen and their scientists, is saying international comparisons have to be done with extreme care because they do not all count the figures in the same way. Belgium is a very good example where the counting includes more than then UK system does.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:47 AM

unfounded slur on the government efforts"
Johnson has just admitted that the Tories have dropped a bollock on care Homes and apologised for it
How dare you contradict our glorious leader ?
You really are asking for the Scummings Frog March treatment
Or maybe Johnson is still delirious after his bout of the Dreaded Lurgi !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:50 AM

The Guardian has been by far the most critical of the government of all newspapers, and a poll published yesterday (in a letter to subscribers with a graph that this website won't let me reproduce) showed that it is the newspaper most trusted on Coronavirus reporting, by a considerable margin. Maybe that's lookupable somewhere. Is the situation in care homes the Tory government's fault? Absolutely it it is, one hundred percent. The Tories have been in charge for ten years. They have made promise after broken promise that they would fix the care sector. Instead, they have done nothing and have sat back whilst the ageing population grows ever larger. The situation in care homes was a disaster waiting to happen, and, as with every other aspect of this pandemic, the Tories have been way behind the curve every step of the way. Well, I suppose you could always blame God. Maybe you think the buck should stop with those feckless enough to allow themselves to get into such a state that they need care, a bit like those fatties...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:54 AM

From the letter to subscribers:

"...an Oxford University survery of 2,700 people in the UK found that Guardian coverage of Covid-19 has been substantially better than that of its newspaper rivals with twice as many Britons impressed by our work on the pandemic compared to any other British newspaper. This is a hugely satisfying verdict given how hard our teams have been working over the past six weeks. In a note to staff, our editor-in-chief Katharine Viner said: "Thank you very much, once again, for your brilliant work through this crisis. Your energy, resilience and commitment are inspiring."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 11:01 AM

A bit more:

"The Guardian’s coverage of the coronavirus outbreak is considered to be substantially better than that of any other British newspaper, according to a University of Oxford study looking at the UK population’s attitudes to news during the lockdown.

According to the research, twice as many Britons said they felt the Guardian was doing a “good job” covering the pandemic compared with the Times, its nearest rival.

The Guardian’s website was also one of the most-read sources for information on the outbreak, second only to BBC News. This fits with internal traffic statistics which show the Guardian has consistently reached record audiences over the last two months, while also seeing a surge in reader contributions to fund its journalism.

Other outlets fared less well but the Sun and the Mail were the only national newspapers where more people felt they were doing a “bad job” than approved of their reporting on the pandemic.

The survey by YouGov for the University of Oxford’s Reuters Institute also found that the BBC’s output continues to dominate online news consumption in the UK, with 36% of the population saying they had turned to the public service broadcaster’s website for coronavirus coverage.

Around 16% said they had visited the Guardian’s website, with Sky News and MailOnline in joint third place on 9%.

TV broadcasters continue to outrank all national newspapers in overall trust ratings and audience levels, aided by their far wider reach."

There's more, and there are are caveats, if you can be arsed to look it up for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 11:42 AM

TV broadcasters continue to outrank all national newspapers in overall trust ratings and audience levels, aided by their far wider reach."
YouGov figures show British trust in the press to tell the truth has fallen, with less than half believing BBC news journalists are honest and impartial

As the BBC responds to claims of bias following its coverage of the general election, YouGov polling reveals that faith in BBC News journalists to tell the truth has dropped, but the trend is not unique to the broadcaster, with trust in journalists falling across the board.

Less than half of Britons (44%) now say they trust the institution to tell the truth despite its public charter to remain politically neutral. This is a fall of seven percentage points since October.
Britons see the tabloid press as the least trustworthy, with half (51%) now saying they wouldn’t trust the newspapers in this bracket to tell the truth at all, and another third (34%) saying they wouldn’t
trust the paper much, for a total of 85% of UK adults who don’t fully
trust the tabloids. Over half have little trust i the upmmarket papers.

This mmakes the guardian figures rather misleading. and I can provide the link

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/16/do-britons-trust-press

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 11:49 AM

Not as "rather misleading" as the fact that you are presenting us with an entirely different survey that was carried out before Coronavirus. Or perhaps you didn't notice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:00 PM

Here is the latest one:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/media/articles-reports/2020/04/29/no-trust-media-has-not-collapsed-because-coronavir
This is where   we discerning tories have a lower level of trust than the gullible left.

Labour voters have become more trusting of media, while the latest YouGov poll reveals that trust has fallen among Conservative voters over the past week. While this partisan gap is quite typical for trust in BBC journalists (who since 2010 have usually been viewed more positively by Labour supporters), it has been turned on its head for broadsheets. Traditionally Conservative voters have tended to be more trusting of upmarket newspapers, but this is no longer the case – with 46% of Labour voters saying they trust journalists from these papers, but just 29% of Conservative voters saying so (a nine-point swing on the partisan balance of opinion from December).
Since no sensible tory even gives bin space to the guardian, whatever it may say is of no interest   to the ruling party or its membership.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:04 PM

Steve
It neds to be remembereed that UGov is a right wing set up organisation which canvasses for information among the same type of people
It also needs to be remembered taht the poster here brushes aside all surveys, Government statements political opinions and press reports that don't suit him or don't come from criminal bloggers as "fake News
I'm sure you know tat
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:10 PM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian.
Then again maybe it is.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/half-of-coronavirus-deaths-happen-in-care-homes-data-from-eu-suggests
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/is-comparing-covid-19-death-rates-across-europe-helpful-

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:30 PM

"Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian."
One of those reports is early a month old - the other had been overtaken by recent admissions and events
In this situation the en=vents alter daily
Johnson made his confession today - I kow he is prone to telling porkies, but only when they are in his interest
How about addressing stated facts thather than opinions
Did he lie ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:34 PM

Mind you, he has promised to pu things right on Monday
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-drops-clear-hint-coronavirus-lockdown-measures-will-change-on-monday-as-he-confirms-sunday-speech

Wonder how many people will die between now and then !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:39 PM

Here we go again slagging off yougov. Do you not ever get bored?

A King’s College survey found that a majority of people (58%) think the government has adapted well to the changing scientific information and situation. Almost 90% support the lockdown measures while 81% support the increased powers given to police.
and a little piccie fromm the Sky news survey where it paints a thousand words and none of it good for newspapers
https://i2.wp.com/blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/19/files/2020/04/Screenshot-2020-04-24-at-09.23.10.png?ssl=1

and   a little gem from guido that could be most informative:
How can the UK economy get back on its post-pandemic feet? How will the government address the massive debt mountain created in the wake of coronavirus?   And how quickly should Britain return to work?
https://order-order.com/2020/05/06/from-rishi-to-rags/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:40 PM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian.
Then again maybe it is.

Or maybe you have highlighted the wrong bit: Notice that in (or from)?

Why do you think I put both of those, rather than just one? I will answer: because I thought it possible that it was an accurate quotation from the Guardian, but that the Guardian had not seen and/or reported the fact that only 7.8% of the deaths in care homes had be confirmed as due to the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:13 PM

DMcG I think you attach a reliability to the cause of death on a certificate that simply does not exist. From the link:
Death certificates from 433 autopsied hospital patients were reviewed and matched against the results of post-mortem examinations. Significant discrepancies between the two documents were observed in 50% of patients. In 25%, the immediate cause of death was incorrectly stated on the certificate, having been assigned to a different organ system in the majority of those cases. In 33%, there was disagreement on major disease other than the immediate cause of death. In 9%, the death certificate was signed before the autopsy was performed. The extent of disagreement was largely independent of whether the certificate was signed before or after the autopsy. We conclude that: (1) there is a significant discrepancy between autopsy diagnoses and entries on death certificates; (2) disagreement is not due to unavailability of autopsy data at the time of completion of the certificate; (3) death certificates should be completed or amended utilizing data gained at autopsy.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1871957
"lthough confirmed cases are reliant on a positive laboratory confirmation of the COVID-19 test, a laboratory diagnosis may not be required for it to be listed as the cause of death. In the UK guidelines, for example, it makes clear that practitioners should complete death certificates to the best of their knowledge, stating that “if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, and then share the test result when it becomes available. In the circumstances of there being no swab, it is satisfactory to apply clinical judgement.”

This means a positive COVID-19 test result is not required for a death to be registered as COVID-19. In some circumstances, depending on national guidelines, medical practitioners can record COVID-19 deaths if they think the signs and symptoms point towards this as the underlying cause."
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths
It is nnot   a perfect world.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:28 PM

The film has just been put up of Johnson admitting Starmer "is quite right of course" over the Care Home scandal - the fact that he has announced a meeting on Monday to DISCUSS IT
The fact that he has called this meeting in five days time prompt's two thoughts -
1. Why hasn't there been one called before this reached the crisis stage it obviouly has?
and
2. Why leave it for five days if the situation has reached the stage where the Prime Minister has been forced to apologise for it?   

Wonder what UGov have to say about that?
Answers on a postcard.....
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:55 PM


DMcG I think you attach a reliability to the cause of death on a certificate that simply does not exist.

You are free to think that if you wish. I don't, because I have been dealing with data uncertainty for a very long time indeed. Pretty much all my working life has involved data of dubious quality, inconsistent definitions, different people interpreting the same rules in different ways and so on and so forth. But that's what you think, fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:58 PM

"Streets ahead? I don't think so. Then you blame that on right wing (do you ever see any other sort?)"
Not when their policies are blindingly obvious RD
Go look at Irish homelessness policy that has caused mass marches - as has water taxation - as has showing arses too vulture capitalism by allowing companies like Goldman Sachs to buy up rented property, evict the tenants
Left wing parties would have done none of that
At the last election the Irish people overwhenlimingly supposted left wing policies with their vote
Now the established parties are forming a coalition to make sure this will not happen
It really isn't rocket science - or delusion
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 03:28 PM

DMcG I am not about to argue with you. I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing. I have yet to encounter 100% accuracy. Any internet search on the accuracy of death certificates uncovers a host of articles in the literature, none particularly flattering when it comes to a discussion of their accuracy.
According to Geriatric Medicine:
In the United States it is estimated that the rate of major errors (eg, incorrect cause of death [CoD], incorrect manner of death) found on death certificates completed at academic institutions is approximately 33% to 40%.1 Internationally, this rate at some hospitals rises as high as 80%. I find it hard to believe they would make these figures up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:05 PM

"I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing."

Well yes. However, your vast experience didn't prevent you from confusing one rather simple set of data with another earlier today, did it? As you think the Guardian is so unreliable, etc., perhaps you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:34 PM

I have never claimed to be infallible. Working on my phone it is not easy to type and cross check things, so I don't know which two data sets I confused, but if I did I did.

when I said a fact might have been omitted from an article in the Guardian what I had in mind was nothing to with deliberate distortions or errors. It is simply that every newspaper article will include what they think are the most salient points. There is always a judgement how important a detail is, and if space is limited (or time to write it is limited) a less salient point may be omitted. You may include more and more and more of these points in your article, but the need to publish forces you to draw a line somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:34 PM

At the last election the Irish people overwhenlimingly supposted left wing policies with their vote

        Fianna Fáil38%
        Sinn Féin 37%
               Fine Gael 35%
SINN FEIN leader Mary Lou McDonald has launched a stinging attack on the European Union, accusing it of being "no great friend to Ireland" during the 2008 financial crisis, in a strong indication of growing euroscepticism in her country.
So if the left kick out Varadkar how soon before a referendum on leaving the EU??
Could get interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:37 PM

you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...

I do have standards you know! There is the press, and the gutter press.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:39 PM

And as proof of my lack of infallibility I think.I completely misunderstood you post, Steve. My apologies!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:39 PM

That's OK, DMcG. I was puzzled for about 28 seconds!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:26 AM

Ireland now Iains
I take it you've laid off defending the Tory's lethal policy on the virus then
Who's to blame you
A pretty comprehensive history here
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci/special-report-johnson-listened-to-his-scientists-about-coronavirus-but-they-were-slow-to-sound-the-alarm-idUSKBN21P1VF

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:38 AM

i think jeremy would have acted quicker as regards a lockdown. i doubt if cheltenham would have happened.the party is more concerned about people and less worried about safeguarding businesses, ironically in the long term having an early lockdown does both of these things witness new zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:15 AM

Iains's voting figures from the Irish election add up to 110%!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:21 AM

Yes Dick, New Zealand, has two advantages, first it is remote, second it has by far the most capable national leader in the anglophone world. I say national leader there, because Dan Andrews the Victorian state premier would run her close. He is of course getting savaged in the mewling Murdoch press, but he is good. The Australian states, rather than the Australian federal government, are largely responsible for the relatively good performance of Australia in the Coronavirus crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:24 AM

The idea that you would even consider lifting the lockdown in England is bizarre, not to say murderous. This is of course a devolved issue in the rest of the UK, and Sturgeon and Drakeford will hold their ground, as they seem to value people above profit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:32 AM

"I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing."

Well yes. However, your vast experience didn't prevent you from confusing one rather simple set of data with another earlier today, did it? As you think the Guardian is so unreliable, etc., perhaps you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...

And now:

"Iain's voting figures from the Irish election add up to 110%!"

Grimm! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:51 AM

I don't think that the idea of easing (rather than lifting) the lockdown is bizarre. I certainly don't think that the idea is murderous or just putting profit before people.

I expect that they will start to ease restrictions. In all probability the fact that they are talking about it will prompt more people to get out and about this weekend, especially if the weather is ok.

We do need to be considering how we return to 'normal' or the 'new normal' while also keeping an eye on what happens with regards to the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Monique
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Irish elections results. Iain's figures are the number of seats, not the %.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:59 AM

The figures were from the express and did not specify what they alluded to. I assumed incorrectly. They actually state the number of seats in the Dáil Éireann,of which there are another 31 I believe, split between a number of minor parties. The lefty greens are the next largest contingent with 12 seats.

Ireland now Iains
You keep on insisting Ireland is the promised land and has shown the way of the righteous, I merely point out it ain't as rosy as you like to make out.

I am very satisfied with the wayy the governmennt is dealing with the crisis, had it been compo clowns I dread to think what would have happened. That is not to say the actions have been   perfect. Perhaps too much emphasis given to   the pantless prat ffrom Imperial with his scaremongering. (his record of the foot and mouth outbreak was many degrees shy of stellar - and how much did that cost?)
I also have issues with the committee that dealt with care homes and their three pathways for emptying hospital beds. Seems to me there was a fourth pathway emanating from Liverpool as a direct result of their recommendations

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/880288/COVID-19_hospital_dischar

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:48 AM

the(Labour) party is more concerned about people and less worried about safeguarding businesses,
Yup! That is labour through and through. Shake rattle and roll the magic money tree!
But if lockdown has trashed the economy labour's popsicles cannot be purchased. The usual total disconnect of the left exemplified above.
If lockdown is prolonged the economy will not be simply hurt, but destroyed. No government can continue to pay a workforce to be idle.
Today it is merely a virus scaring people. On the present path tomorrow will be starvation and societal collapse. Take your choice!
Gettingupin the morning presents risk. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:53 AM

"You keep on insisting Ireland is the promised land and has shown the way of the righteous, "
Anybody whoio did that would be incredibly stupid
Ireland id a Capitalist country increasingly dominated and occasionally ruined by Bankers with a superior electoral system to offset ot at least slow down the worst aspects of that fact
It has it's problems as does every other similarly placed country inside the EU and outside but here the people have a louder voice and are not brushed aside once the election results are announced
Demonstrations on the street on water, homelessness, and poverty have caused major rethinks of policy and will continue to do so as several of those demonstrations have led to the setting up of political parties that have now won a voice in the Dail
Ther is no guarantee for the future but at least thaere is a move to getting one
Britain has yet to move from feudal dominance with such throwbacks as a 'constitutional monarchy', and a House of Lords' used for rewarding the rich and the political sell-outs - elderly men (largely) who use 'the other place' as a gentleman's club for an afternoon nap
I think Monique's country had the right idea when they settled their 'growing poverty problem' on the Place de la Concorde a few centuries ago (Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:10 AM

david NZ is NOT remote as regards air travel, NEITHER is Australia

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:11 AM

(Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts) What utter nonsense!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:25 AM

Iains: (Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts) What utter nonsense!

I think Jim is only referring to the low level street lights with cross bars just below the lamp level, suitable for lynchings. (from the rest of his comment). This suggests that he feels mob rule could still be a valid option.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Nigel it is held by many that we are but 9 meals from anarchy when the vittles run out. Perhaps Jim secretly agrees that extended lockdown will have unhappy outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:27 AM

Thanks Nigel
If you were serious (I hope you were's) you share your fellow Torie's lack of a sense of hmour
We already have mob rule - it's called populism and it took us out of Europe
Using race hate as a political weapon is exactly that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:30 AM

Interesting   point of view   from Sweden (from the lancet):
COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown   might   delay   severe cases for a while, but once restrictions   are   eased,   cases   will   reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2931035-7
Rather different to the line being peddled by many here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:37 AM

Whether New Zealand is or not remote in terms of air traffic is a matter of judgement. For comparison, in 2019 the UK top ten airports had 254,628,734 total passengers of whom 186,339,975 are terminating whereas New Zealand had 41,327,639 total passengers. I am not sure how many of these are between the islands, but I would expect quite a high proportion.

('Terminating' means they were not taking a onward flight elsewhere.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:57 AM

Jim not everyone is going to vote the same way as you. I sometimes think you will only ever be happy in a one party state (as long as that party was the one that you supported)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:22 AM

"Jim not everyone is going to vote the same way as you."
Of course they're not RD but given The Bank of England has just predicted that Britain is heading for a recession depper than ever recorded and a doubling of Unemployment figures, I defy anyone to predict how the British people will vote in the future
The old 'Pie in the sky' election promises were already wearing pretty thin before all this happened - a situation worse that the 'Hungry Twenties' is hardly going to have the turkeys rushing to the polls to vote for Christmas, is it?
Does anybody really believe the Briish people to be as stupid or as altruistic towards those who already have too much to spend in ten lifetimes? I don't

A single party system is necessary at a time when a system is changing - such as post WW! Russia; that's's not going to happen either
What we have in Britain as a pretense for democracy is a one system system
When that system ceases to serve all the people, as it has been or a long time, new ways forward have to be found - the logical one at present being an agreed coalition of all responsible parties dedicated to clearing up the pandemic mess
Any attempts to return to the old 'dog-eat-dog' system will lead to total anarchy - you only have to remember the mess Thatcher created in dividing Britain into North and South and smashing age old industries without replacing them - mass demonstrations, Poll Tax riots and a sharp and continuing rise in racism (which included institution racism in the forces of 'law and order'
Is that your idea of democracy ?
If so - I suggest you rethink your 'sheep to the slaughter' image of the British 'ordinary person'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:26 AM

If you have a repy RD - I suggest you look a little nearer home that 'Sweden' - whataboutism ain't gonna impress either
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:47 AM

We already have mob rule - it's called populism and it took us out of Europe
Hilarious Democracy took us   out   of europe.
Democracy elected MPs who would honour the referendum and get brexit done.
Populism wrecked the parliamentary careers of the traitors.
That was democracy in action.!
Populism=a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
Rather explains how Boris kicked labour into the long grass. Ignore the electorate at your peril. They always have the whip hand.
Boris is getting more popular by the day- that is populism in action.
Doncha jus luv it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:14 AM

"Hilarious Democracy took us   out   of europe."
Tell the victims of the sharp rise in racism that was used to take Britain out that
Or does democracy only count for WASPs
HERE
Democracy can only be democratic when all the facts are available to everybody
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:33 AM

Incidentally
I assume everybody is aware that the unstable Prick on Pennsylvanian Avenue
has threatened retaliation against China for deliberately starting the virus
Now that really is going to help the World Economy no end - innit - not to mention the Doomsday Clock
Anybody who believes things don't have to change must be as bonkers as he is
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:54 AM

Doomsday Clock jumped a lot closer this year with Trump in place.

Iains loves to use examples that set all of you on edge, he calculates his posts in order to do that. Whether or not accounts stay open or take time off for bad behavior, it would be nice if you would stop feeding the troll.

Reminders aren't invitations to reply or argue.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:19 AM

There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:

======

Johnson has told his cabinet that the government will adopt “maximum caution” as it moves to ease the lockdown. Johnson chaired a cabinet meeting this morning and, according to the prime minister’s spokesman, Johnson told his ministers:

We are not going to do anything that risks a second peak. We will advance with maximum caution in order to protect the NHS and to save lives. We will be guided at every step by the science and the data and we will closely track the impact of any easing of the social distancing measures and will not hesitate to tighten the rules if required.

======

The flavour of this is very different to a lot of newspaper headlines, including the Daily Mail, the Sun, the Express and the Daily Star, which all talk as if there will be a substantial relaxation of the lockdown from Monday. The Telegraph is more stately, merely saying '"Stay at Home" advice to be scrapped', but all of them seem counter to the "maximum caution" approach from number 10.

If populism wins out, we could wipe out all the potential benefits of the lockdown at a stroke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:52 AM

Absolutely Mac
The message from number 10 is contradictory - the only consistency lies with the exxpets who say "to soon" - though the may differ in nuance on occasion
Busness cannot have a say in this on the ground of 'self interest'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:54 AM

Jim posted "If so - I suggest you rethink your 'sheep to the slaughter' image of the British 'ordinary person'"

I think that is more your image than mine Jim. Oh and I did not mention Sweden either.

+
DMcG

I think that we will see some relaxation but not a substantial relaxation of the lockdown. I agree that the press coverage, as usual, has not helped along with the message that something will be said on Sunday. I was in town late morning and there were quite a few people walking around, albeit keeping a safe distance from each other. There was the usual manoeuvring to obtain a more southern position in the precinct. If the weather holds I expect to see more people out and about over the long weekend.

Might well be an idea to allow, encourage DIY stores and garden centres to open, if they have not done so already. Shame to waste all that spare time that people had.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:08 AM

I see that Household Waste Recycling Centres are reopening around the country. Not before time. Here in Kent they are reopening from 15.5.20 for 'essential' use. Slots will have to be booked in advance and you will only be able to book one trip in any 4 week period.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:39 AM

" Oh and I did not mention Sweden either."
Somebody else sahring your politics did
" complain about perceived insults."
" you might all be able to get out more."
Which wasn't an insult of course
Iains has been branded a troll by the mods who have instructed us to ignore him - think on't
"I think that is more your image than mine Jim"
That's the definition of the populism Iains advocates for - read the FT article and tell me it isn't
It gavve the world Hitler ansd Mussolini - now it has given Britain Brexit
As I said - business should never have a say in people's well-being - the fact that it has here sums up the contradictory loyalties of your Government
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:45 AM

Farage is at it again. Stopped once again by the Police in Dover.

What an arsehole this man is. I hope the Police throw the book at him. He has been spoken to once and had obviously ignored the warning.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:46 AM

Jim posted "Somebody else sahring your politics did."

Oh how wrong you are and not for the first time. I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:58 AM

No he was not stopped at Dover. The police went to visit him up north in Kent after complaints were made about his visit, after he had posted his video I imagine.

He seems to find it hard being out of the limelight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:09 PM

You are correct Rain Dog, the report says he went to the kent Coast.

Link

Either way he is breaking the rules that the rest of us have to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:27 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."

Not helpful. And not true.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:46 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."
Not helpful. And not true.

How can anyone deny what Rain Dog sees?
He may be mistaken in what he believes he sees, but no one can fairly state that his comment is not true!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:52 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."
I am trying to avoid that level of insulting - can I request you do
I see you vaguely a government-status quo supporter who regards a suggestion of change as a call to revolution, or at least "a one party system"
If I made a mistake, I apologise - If you can mistake my political position -as you continue to do, than I hope I can be forgiven for mistaking yours
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:12 PM

Incidentally - I was referring to Iainls political philosophy - certainl not his behaviour
He stands unique on that front
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:52 PM

There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:
I think not!
The media thrive on gotcha moments and sniping at the government of the day.
The worldometer website clearly shows the UK is atypical in the graphs displayed compared to Spain for example. Spain shows a pronounced peak in both infections and deaths, thus providing a clear timeline for relaxation of lockdown measures.   The curves for the UK are less pronounced and thus give   no clear timeline yet for relaxation measures. Why this atypical behaviour is shown is unknown, but I suspect having heathrow as the busiest hub in europe may well have a role to play.
The mail claims the UK has had the most deaths in Europe.This is announced with no qualification.
However in terms of deaths per million of population(a much safer metric, despite being not directly comparable) Spain, Italy annd Belgium show higher figures. Typical mainstream   scaremongering with no basis in reality.
UK 66.5 million   Deaths 30,615 451/million
Italy 60.36million   Death29,998 485/million

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:50 PM

and in other news
Has Germany just blown up the Eurozone?
While the Constitutional Court found that the ECB’s regular QE activity (e.g. the Public Sector Purchasing Programme) does not contravene Article 123 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the verdict specifies the necessary conditions that the PSPP satisfies. The implication is that the Pandemic Emergency Purchasing Programme does not satisfy them.

In other words, even the minor concession made to the vulnerable members of the Eurozone is now under threat. As for Eurobonds, forget it! They’re not happening. Not now, not ever.
https://unherd.com/thepost/has-germany-just-blown-up-the-eurozone/
I wonder how   they will stick    a bandaid on this little contretemps?
https://www.ft.com/content/db720dde-19e8-4e9c-bbfb-b4d48db71a6c

        Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [e-mail] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
        https://www.ft.com/content/db720dde-19e8-4e9c-bbfb-b4d48db71a6c

        The decision has the potential to unleash a constitutional crisis in the EU’s biggest member state and with it the entire eurozone. It raises questions about the ECB’s sacrosanct independence and the credibility of the rulings of the EU’s highest court in Luxembourg.
What a can of worms!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:52 PM

That   was sent before   I had finished editing and previewing.
My   apologies. I   thought I had ticked the preview

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Just opened my regular ad from the Israeli Labour paper Haaretz covering the antics of the wanker in the White-House

Jews Control Chinese Labs That Created Coronavirus': White Supremacists’ Dangerous New Conspiracy Theory

Wonder if Israel will push on with their plans to name the new Jerusalem railway station after him !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM

The Horses's Mouth admission without the lethal political bullshit

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/uk-office-for-national-statistics-says-death-toll-has-climbed-above-32000-to-mark-worst-in-europe-ahead-of-italy-2020-05-05
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:47 PM

The worst figures in Europe are actually from Belgium with a   death rate of 726 per million of population. A crude death rate of a country unqualified by population numbers is   meaningless, even more so   when death statistics are   gathered in different ways with varying accuracy country   to country. Direct comparisons are not possible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:59 AM


There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:
I think not!
(then a whole bunch of stuff about papers attacking governments, death rates and so on)


That is not what I was talking about. What I was referring to was that the popular press has been implying a significant relaxation of lockdown was imminent and so popular opinion might decide that they could breach the rules early. The government is fighting hard (Thursday night) to recover the position and say the lockdown must continue, after all the tabloids on Wednesday proclaimed Monday might the day we are somehow freed. Not only are the government apparently concerned a lot of the population could in effect defy the government rules, you are getting similar expressions of concern from the police.

The papers on Friday seem to be more sober, and fortunately seem to have dropped this potentially damaging - even fatal - line about relaxing the rules.   The Prime Minister has still created a problem for himself on Sunday when he said at Wednesday's PMQ there may be some relaxation on Sunday, and the police are still indicating they are worried about what that might do to the following weekend, but I think since the press have cut back on the promotion, the risk of widespread rule-breaking is reduced.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:14 AM

While people continue to die the Government and its supporters quibble over whether the figures are the worst or second worst in Europe and whether the admitted "worst" means numbers or percentages"
Nice to know our futures are in safe, responsible hands
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:44 AM

You are the one first making an issue of numbers. Date: 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM
I merely point out that giving raw figures without any context is not only misleading, but wrong. There is no way to stop the virus, merely to attempt to control the rate of spread. As a swedish professor states: by the time the dust has settled the mortality rates are liable to be similar throughoout Europe.
It is also important to point out that lockdown has done nothing to help the most vulnerable in care homes. Not just in the UK but Ireland, France, Spain and likely all other countries when the final analysis is done.
By emptying hospital beds and mothballing nightingale hospitals, where did all these elderly people go? and how thorough was the testing regime?
Was the horrific care home death toll the fault of government, the NHS, or society? We employ "experts" - what went wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:20 AM

As ever, James O’Brien setting out the truth about the Johnson administration’s cluelessness over how to handle the pandemic (despite there being plenty of clues from China, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, South Korea, etc.) and their obsession with ‘public approval ratings’ (rather like Trump), culminating in the briefing of their tame ‘newspapers’ {spit} in order for them to run what amounts to an unofficial opinion-poll on what to do next...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/coruscating-monologue-uk-response-coronavirus/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:25 AM

The numbers are important - defending them is political posturing and highly dangerous - it encourages complacency
You merely defended a shitty Government rather than pointing out the dangerously high figures - as you do
The goverment has fucked up

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:44 AM

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/17/coronavirus-care-homes-could-be-where-over-half-of-europe-s-covid-19-deaths-occur-says-new

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:56 AM

RA report of the effects of Populism from te organisation set up to monitor freedom end democracy in Europe has reported that Hungary is no longer a democratic Country since populism put Orban in the driving seat and Poland is heading in the same direction
Things really have got to change
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:06 AM

Don't forget that with the exception of Kier Starmer, whom I have a lot of time for, is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:09 AM

" is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective"
Good tio hear
He's a Tory in mufti - no wonder you admire him Bozo - that confirms what he is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:16 AM

Interesting points made by Paul Lewis on his Twitter Feed, suggesting that a cull of the sick and elderly in order to benefit the insurance and pensions industry could have been one of the driving forces behind the government’s ‘herd-immunity’ and ‘take it on the chin’ bollix during the early part of the Covid-19 pandemic in the UK.

It’s occurred to me more than once that, knowing this government’s predilection for taking care of the welfare of the wealthy and big business, rather than that of the proles, this may very well be at the core of their thinking and lack of timely, positive action.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:44 AM

Re VE Day, my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, with photos, "Remember Them?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 07:59 AM

"Don't forget that with the exception of Kier Starmer, whom I have a lot of time for, is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Who or what is "inefective" (???) Bonzo, you don't actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:09 AM

Don't play with your food Rag - what have you been told :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:20 AM

Put your own house in order first Jim.

YOU are the worst offender in this regard by a country mile. Don't tell me who I can or cannot respond to until such times as you follow your own "advice"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:42 AM

Interesting points made by Paul Lewis on his Twitter Feed, suggesting that a cull of the sick and elderly in order to benefit the insurance and pensions industry could have been one of the driving forces behind the government’s ‘herd-immunity’ and ‘take it on the chin’ bollix during the early part of the Covid-19 pandemic in the UK.

It’s occurred to me more than once that, knowing this government’s predilection for taking care of the welfare of the wealthy and big business, rather than that of the proles, this may very well be at the core of their thinking and lack of timely, positive action.
So backwoodsman by repeating a twitter feed you are accusing the   UK   government of deliberately exposing care home inhabitants to risk and thereby murdering them. Rather a ridiculous assertion as that is the demographic that most heavily supports the Tories,   Was it the tories causing the excessive care home deaths documented in other countries as well?
   
Deliberate cull is a slur that really needs a little more to back it up. For anyone not on the left such posts would be construed as deliberate trolling. That is why you posted such a   totally unfounded reckless accusation.
However   had   you posted:Last week, Keir Starmer was forced to admonish Diane Abbott and Bell Ribeiro-Addy for taking part in a Zoom chat with a number of notorious Labour antisemites, including Jackie Walker and Tony Greenstein. His warning clearly made no difference as just a day later Abbott and Ribeiro-Addy – who this time was hosting – held a Zoom festival sharing a platform with notorious Anti-Zionist Chris Williamson supporter Lindsey German. This time the pair were joined by Jeremy Corbyn and Apsana Begum…
That is    well documented   and true. Keir Starmer passed up the opportunity to act the first time Abbott and Ribeiro-Addy shared an online platform with antisemites, will he assert his authority this time?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:50 AM

"Put your own house in order first Jim."
It was a joke rag - couldn't you tell
I don't tell others who to post to - nobody should
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 09:20 AM

The government has been widely criticised for their poor response to the Corona Virus.

They appear to have learnt little from the advice they have received from the scientific community and now they are seeking to limit the damage to themselves from that inaction.



Inaction

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Barb'ry
Date: 08 May 20 - 10:10 AM


Bonzo, if someone, somewhere but not me, were to say, "right wing, gold medal goose stepping droolers..." wherever in social media those people may be it would be bound to upset someone, somewhere and could cause unwanted and vociferous attention. This, in turn, could in some circles be called trolling, which, as you know is forbidden on this place on social media. Please desist.
Anyone of a different political persuasion making similar comments that may be considered trolling, should also desist.
Thanking you all
b

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 10:26 AM

HERE
Jim Cattoll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 20 - 11:42 AM

There he goes again, insults then says it's a joke!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 11:51 AM

The reason this Tory government is culpable apropos of care homes ("culpable" being tantamount to causing many hundreds of unnecessary deaths) is that they allowed the country to enter this pandemic with nothing like sufficient PPE resources. What resources were available were generally diverted away from care homes into hospitals. On the day that two nurses fully clad in PPE were tending every minute of the day to Boris Johnson in hospital, care workers and care home residents all over the country were being relentlessly exposed to infection. OK for some, eh? The Tories have been in charge for ten years. They ignored Exercise Cygnus in 2016 which had modelled a pandemic and shudderingly accurately predicted a terrifying shortfall in NHS resources. Not only did they not act on it, they didn't exactly make the findings public. So I'm holding this Tory government one hundred percent to blame for the disaster in so many care homes. Since 2016 they've had their eye off the ball, pursuing instead a stupid brexit strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 01:05 PM

If what you say is true care home deaths in the UK would be anomalously high compared to the rest of   Europe. This is demonstrably untrue.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-was-devastating-europes-nursing-homes-well-before-the-us-here-are-the-lessons-they
and

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52399869
This   would suggest you are posting   provocatve fake   news

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:23 PM

Telling us that other countries are just as bad is no excuse. And there is nothing fake about the factual content of my post. You are trolling again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:28 PM

What a god-awfule competition to become involved in - Engliish deaths v Irish deaths
THESE ARE THE STATISTICS THAT MATTER, espacilailly to relatives who have someone in such homes to worry about
OR THESE
AND THIS HORRIFIC FACT
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:57 PM

Telling us that other countries are just as bad is no excuse. And there is nothing fake about the factual content of my post.

You mean like: The reason this Tory government is culpable apropos of care homes ("culpable" being tantamount to causing many hundreds of unnecessary deaths)
Definitely untrue! The deaths are 'caused' by the virus. The government may not have prevented them, but that is not the same as 'causing' them.
Based on the comparison with other countries (Valid, even if you dislike any facts posted by Iains), it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 03:16 PM

"it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers."

Sorry Nigel this statement is abject nonsense.

Had the PPE required been available, had the information regarding the virus been available earlier, if the carers had more reliable information, if the government had done more to prevent the spread of the virus of course the casualty numbers would have been lower.

I think you are trying to excuse the inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 20 - 03:51 PM

There is a difference between: "it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers."

And: "the casualty numbers would have been lower."

I think you are trying to excuse the inexcusable.

I am not trying to excuse anything. Just pointing out the arrant nonsense posted by Steve Shaw, and presumably accepted, without question, by those who feel that, whatever they do, the government cannot be doing the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 03:55 PM

I merely point out the facts. Others like to revel in the blame game.
Care homes are filled with people in need of care. This is a no brainer.
That they are vulnerable is a given.
From the nursing times:(14 August, 2017)
"Care home residents share air, space, food and equipment, so they also share organisms that can easily cause infection outbreaks, such as viruses and bacteria. They are also more prone and vulnerable to infections, which can lead to death."
The most common types of disease outbreaks in care homes are outbreaks of respiratory infections (often caused by influenza viruses), and gastrointestinal infections (often caused by noroviruses) (Utsumi et al, 2010; Strausbaugh et al, 2003). Some organisms can cause more than one type of infection; for example, Streptococcus pyogenes and multi-drug-resistant organisms (MDROs) such as meticillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) can cause skin, urinary tract, and bloodstream infections (Steer et al, 2012; Utsumi et al, 2012).
"
In a literature review of 206 infection outbreaks in care facilities for older people, the respiratory tract was involved in 45% of outbreaks, the gastrointestinal tract in 36%, the skin in 7% and the eyes in 2%. Only four organisms – influenza virus, norovirus, salmonella and S pyogenes – made up more than 50% of all infectious agents involved (Utsumi et al, 2012)."
Seems clear to me the experts knew Covid-19 could be a severe problem based on previous knowledge. More than a whiff of incompetance in my book. Though according to your own jaundiced view it is a case of paying peanuts and getting monkeys. though of course you rather implied it rather than coming straight out and saying it. Hardly PC in my book.
It doesn't help that the staff are just about the lowest-paid in the land, receive only the most basic training and are daily confronted with some tasks that many of us would find unpleasant. Mr Shaw
and Mr Carroll
What Seve said about overworked, underpaid and unappreciated care-home workers - with knobs on

Infection in care homes has been a well-recognised problem for years. It is the professionals should have been on the ball, why not place blame where blame is due. The NHS is one of the largest employers in the world, presumably they have one or two experts on the payroll.. They are the body that took their eye off the ball, why keeping trying to shove blame on the government?

Some of these comments are in really bad taste, Iain, namely the Shipman/Liverpool pathway comments. I have removed this part of your post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:24 PM

This is not a trolling statement, Nigel, but a simple request: don't say such damn stupid things. Over and out with you, so say what you like.

The facts are really simple. The government had ignored the findings of the 2016 Cygnus exercise, which clearly found that that the NHS would be appallingly unfit for purpose in any future epidemic. The upshot was that when this pandemic struck there was a serious shortage of the protective equipment THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD BEEN AMPLY WARNED ABOUT AND WHICH THEY HAD DONE NOTHING IN ALMOST FOUR YEARS TO RECTIFY. The Tories, along with their LibDem lackeys for part of the time, have been in charge for TEN YEARS. So yes, I'm blaming the Tories. Not the care homes, who have struggled without the kit that has been diverted to hospitals. That you can blame "the professionals" in care homes is shameful. My mum is in a care home near me. They have struggled like mad, successfully, to keep Coronavirus out. I haven't seen my mum for two months. Large numbers of their staff have been forced to self-isolate and lots of them are working extra shifts in a situation in which they live in fear, both of taking the bug back to their families or of importing it into the home. The two managers are the sweetest people in the world and have been tearing their hair out to keep the place afloat. Most of the rest of the staff are on the minimum wage. Several are women who have been unable to go back to their own countries because of the lockdown. One lovely girl from Romania should have been home six weeks ago to get married. She's still here, doing FaceTime with me and my mum, and I've never caught her without a smile on her face.

"Infection in care homes has been a well-recognised problem for years. It is the professionals should have been on the ball, why not place blame where blame is due."

Jesus Christ. The things you haven't a bloody CLUE about...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:40 PM

Arrant nonsense is the white noise of social media Nigel.
It is the chaos of crashing waves or the roars of waterfalls.
Some find it soothing to create their own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:13 PM

The realistic number of those infected in the US is somewhere between a minimum of 10 million and a maximum of unknown.

The stated infected numbers are arrant nonsense that some believe calms the public.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:31 PM

Wrong thread Don?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:32 PM

For me, when someone says

"it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers"

it is the word 'greatly' that leaps out. What is that supposed to mean? I imagine a conversation saying

"Sir, if we can provide more PPE we can cut the casualties by 5%"
"Only 5%? Not worth doing then."

Why insist on 'greatly reducing'?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:39 PM

"One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly"

This post has been partly deleted because in drawing my attention to an offensive post, it repeated the words used.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:13 AM

It is rumoured that one of the changes on Sunday is that arrivals from overseas will have to self isolate on arrival. They will do this apparently by filling in a form giving the address at which they will be self isolating.

On the 'every little helps' principle, this is a step in the right direction, and should be welcomed as such. But it is a bit tiny, is it not? Are we going to have people visiting these addresses to check up whether people are self isolating? Just because you are there are the moment of such an inspection says little about whether you have been there the rest of the time.   Telephoning them to check will obviously not work unless it is a fixed line. (Although the technology exists to check where a mobile is, it is not as straightforward as the films and TV shows suggest, not least because the information needed is distributed across several private companies.) And I could imagine diplomatic problems arising from it if someone is found to be breaking self isolation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:15 AM

THe care home situation in Ireland is admittedly bad, but nowhere near as bad as Ireland, long admitted to and being worked on - Ireland is a poor country thanks to the Bankers and never has been able to afford a national Health Service, but in general, the medacal facilities are second to none
Even the richest nations have not been able to cope in this situation
In the US, they check your wallet before they check your pulse - if you can't afford treatment you die - simple as that
Britain - among the wealthiest nation in te world has watched as the National Health Service - set up by Labour and opposed by the Tories - has been run to a hand-to-mouth situation with nursing sytaff being overworked and paid a pittance - nurses falling asleep at work and going home worrying how to feed their families (if they can afford them) doesn't happen here
Add the fact the the British National Health Service would have long ground to a halt if it hadn't been for the Irish and despised immigrant medical staff hadn't been prepared to put up with these appalling conditions, (not to mention the ant- Irish, anti-black racism they had to put up with)
I know from family experience how badly Irish nurses were paid and sometimes treated - two of my aunts suffered the NHS ordeal as dedicated nurses

The despicable comparing of the Irish to Britain's own worst mass murderer is pretty typical of Britain's present racism problem that Brexit has helped to generate - I couldn't be more grateful for the example - the real "Doctor Shipman" is the scumbag non--elected main-man who proposed a prioritising a "survival of the fittest" treatment scheme
Let's move away from this cess pit level eh ?

A reminder of the real situation in the UK
Its report comes amid calls for accurate data on virus-linked deaths.
Only 217 such care home deaths have been officially recorded in England and Wales up to 3 April.
That was the situation in 19th April - the Government only admitted there WAS a problem a couple of days ago, when Johnson was forced to apologise and has yet to begin tackling it
Given the discrepency between the reported between reported and actual figures, I wonder if those understanding percentages better than I do (not hard to find) could work out the present ACTUAL FIGURES OF DEATH HOMES CARES RATHER THAN THE GOVERNMENT HYPED-UP ONES
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:16 AM

"not only trolling but also in extremely bad taste."
And downright racist
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:48 AM

The ineptitude which has led to the leaks about what will happen on Monday apropos of relaxing the lockdown is legendary. "Mixed messages" doesn't even begin to cut it. I'd welcome garden centres reopening. It's an outrageous anomaly that pokey little gardening corners in supermarkets (thinking of the Morrisons and B&M that I know), in which social distancing is well-nigh impossible, can sell what they like while thousands of tons of young plants are rotting away in well-organised and spacious garden centres.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 07:05 AM

An article in yesterday's Guardian ('Harvesting' is a terrible word – but it's what has happened in Britain's care homes by Richard Coker) gives the lie to the claims, oft repeated here, that the government is not to blame for the dreadful death toll in care homes. The non-joined-up policies since the start of the outbreak, starting with bodged thinking on herd immunity, then no testing or contact tracing in care homes, then PPE diverted away from care homes, has led to a situation now out of control, and in which anything now done will be too little, too late. And before anyone thinks of dissing the article as typical Guardian leftie-peftie piffle, so often the kneejerk reaction here, they'd be well advised to investigate just briefly how well-qualified Professor Coker is to speak on this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 May 20 - 07:22 AM

Well it does look like garden centres will be opening this week.

I agree that talk of 'relaxing' the lockdown has not and does not help the situation at all. The media do not help in this situation as they have been asking when is the lockdown going to be relaxed from very early on. The government should say they are looking at it and will make an announcement when the time is right, rather than drop hints early on. The way they announced the closure of pubs was a good way of doing it.

With regards to relaxing the lockdown, can any of you UK posters tell me if you have seen any masks for sale in local shops? I have not seen any on my shopping trips.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 08:30 AM

Whatever the cause, it seems the UK will be high on the list of the hardest hit countries economically, if the depressing BBC news report is anything to go by
The Air industry is talking about mass closures and bankruptcy if the 14 day quarantine for incomers is enforced
Catering businesses interviewed say they can't possibly survive enforced social distancing - it will more than half reduce custom in many places
Percentages aside,
It seems to me, as many countries are now returning to normal or talking about it, the fact that Britain is moving in the opposite direction is an indication that either it was hit harder than elsewhere or someone at the wheel wasn't looking where they were going
If it hadn't been for 'The Pond, Britain and the U.S. would have been in a massive pile-up
All very depressing
Why the **** did it have to be the ***** garden centres that survived :-)
Must get strimming
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 20 - 09:26 AM

What I was referring to was that the popular press has been implying a significant relaxation of lockdown was imminent and so popular opinion might decide that they could breach the rules early.

For what it is worth, a friend lives in a tower block, overlooking a nearby shore. She is reporting the area is teeming with people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 09:40 AM

There's been an increase in road traffic in north Cornwall from next to nothing six weeks ago to near-normal now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 20 - 10:09 AM

"Mixed messages" doesn't even begin to cut it.

There seems to be some sections of the press and media that want to draw parallels between the virus and the last war, and looking at the PM's response to Keir Starmer saying we want to get 'these measures' (the context explains what they are) under way:


We will want, if we possibly can, to get going with some of these measures on Monday


... which led to all the tabloid 'Happy Monday' stuff.

So here is a wartime slogan to practice:

CARELESS TALK COSTS LIVES

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 10:47 AM

THe care home situation in Ireland is admittedly bad, but nowhere near as bad as Ireland, long admitted to and being worked on - Ireland is a poor country thanks to the Bankers and never has been able to afford a national Health Service, but in general, the medacal facilities are second to none
Rubbish
Ireland a poor coutry You're avin a laugh! In terms of GDP Ireland ranks no 18 in the EU. In terms of GDP per capita, Ireland is ranked as one of the wealthiest countries in the OECD and the EU-27, at 4th in the OECD-28 rankings. They could well afford a NHS if the will was there.
Ireland ranks no   6 in the world for per capita GDP.
If you want to know what poor is try visiting a few Subsaharan countries, or somewhere like the Yemen. Until you have seen grinding poverty firsthand you have no idea

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 11:17 AM

2Ireland a poor coutry You're avin a laugh! "
In terms of grown, industry and land usage Ireland is a poor country - the Brits made sure of that when they partitioned Ireland and kept the most arable land and most industrialised counties under British rule leaving "a country where there is not enough water to drown a man, wood enough to hang one, nor earth enough to bury him."
The greatest legacy they left was continual emigration in serch of work - The Celtic Tiger was a sort burst which with the help of EU membership began to turn Ireland;'s fortunes in the right direction - but International bankers, vulture capitalism
Ireland is typical of countries that started out hopefully but fell into bad company

I wll know your view of Ireland - it is typical of what has cuased many Irish fiends from posting to this forum - please don't post these views with your distorted figures to me again to me again - I've had enough of such company
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 11:18 AM

Bet you loved my "fiends" typo - too long in the sun today
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 12:23 PM

By all internationally accepted metrics Ireland   is a rich country.   Constant denial does not gain credibility.

please don't post these views with your distorted figures to me again to me again - I've had enough of such company
When in a hole tis best to stop digging.
https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/


https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/richest-countries-in-the-world/
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/richest-countries-in-the-world/
Why not just accept that by continuing this you are just making a fool of yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 12:48 PM

And before anyone thinks of dissing the article as typical Guardian leftie-peftie piffle, so often the kneejerk reaction here,
It is an opinion piece in the gruniard ='nuff said!

Interesting article from a couple of weeks ago:
"Patients transferred into nursing homes from hospitals hit by Covid-19 sparked fatal outbreaks among vulnerable residents, nursing home operators have claimed.

Despite the risks associated with these transfers, the Health Service Executive emptied as many hospital beds as possible in this fashion as it prepared to deal with the pandemic.

Hospital patients were deemed eligible for transfer to care homes even if they were showing symptoms and had been identified as close contacts of others who were Covid-positive.
Did this not happen in the UK? Where was the protest off the healthcare professionals? If government is supposed to involve itself in the minutiae of the health service we can double the frontline staff and cull the backroom pencilpushers. Care to explain why this is not the case? There seems a distinct lack of accountability when the shit hits the fan. Just continual finger pointing at the government.
How lucky we are that Labour lost the election, Corbyn running the show wouldbe the stuff of nightmares.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 01:07 PM

It's not the wealth but who owns it and how it's spent
Britain ranks among the highest YET

AND

The decline in health care in Britain is one of the factors that has led to it being among the forerunners in virus casualties, way in front of Ireland
It's not how much wealth is available but who controls how it is spent
Ireland still has no industial base - before the EU it's road system was a mess
Ireland is a poor country in terms of how the money can be spent and Britain's role in keeping it divided by sectariianism has helped maintain that position
It is significant that both Brexit and this crisis has moved a UNited Ireland several giant strides nearer
Address th position of Britain's murderous role in this criis rather than this racist bullshit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 01:19 PM

Two more Iains trolling posts in a row.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 01:52 PM

Address th position of Britain's murderous role in this criis rather than this racist bullshit
Jim Carroll
I hope the mods will see fit to delete this anglophobic rubbish

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 02:19 PM

"I hope the mods will see fit to delete this anglophobic rubbish"
Sed the feller who claims British police are corrupt, British courts are biased, the British press comes a poor second to a criminal right wing blogger and the British democratic system is shit if it doesn't follow the orders of an unelectes right-wing scumbag
Yeh -well - we'll hav to think anout that carefully won't wee ?
Please stop driving my Irish friends from posting to this multi-racial forum (supposedly)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:49 PM

Corbyn running the show wouldbe the stuff of nightmares, quote
well johnson has not done very well at all
i think corbyn would have done better

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:55 PM

Don’t fall for ‘Whataboutery’ of that kind, Dick.
What Corbyn would, wouldn’t, might, might not, have done is utterly irrelevant.
It’s a ploy by the Right-Wing Extremist to divert attention from the failure of this Conservative government.
It isn’t worth the energy it takes to respond to it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 04:00 PM

Jeremy Corbyn, had he been elected, would have faced exactly the same dilemmas as Johnson, dilemmas created by ten long years of Tory neglect of the NHS and the complacent setting aside of a study that predicted with shuddering accuracy that the NHS would not be fit for purpose in a pandemic. Whether he would have done better is academic. I like to think that he would have been far more honest with the people than this current lying bunch of shysters, and that he would have paid far more attention to care homes, rather than let them rot, as with this incompetent lot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:05 PM

Sed the feller who claims British police are corrupt, British courts are biased, the British press comes a poor second to a criminal right wing blogger and the British democratic system is shit if it doesn't follow the orders of an unelectes right-wing scumbag

Looks like a personal attack accompaied by a pack of lies!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, right. And butter wouldn't melt in your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:49 AM

I have no intention of prolonging this other than to say that, on several occasions some of us have been accused of objecting to Iain's "politics" - while we may not have agreed with them, I don't think anybody can produce any examples of our asking him to be removed because of his views, nor of asking for them to be "deleted" because of the political views expressed
Here we have an example of his appealing for ours to be deleted because he does not agree with them politically
It is not "Anglophobic" to criticise Government policy - on the contrary - it is extremely sinister to represent the actions or the views of politician or Party you may favour, with the British people as a whole with any political party or political leader - neither speaks on behalf of the whole people - ever
I was born at the time when Britain was fighting a war to prevent that argument from engulfing Europe - we all know the results of what the Political leader we were fighting was attempting to achieve - it's been filling our screens all last week
I suggest we move on
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 04:12 AM

"with any political party or political leader"
Sould read; "with the viewss of the British people as a whole" of course
Shouldn't post before seven o'clock
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 06:30 AM

Well, I'm back and it looks like not much has changed.

The government is still getting it wrong and some people are still excusing it or using smoke and mirrors to divert attention. Best we can do is just tell it as it is and let everyone make up their own minds.

Looking forward to finding out how BoJo is going to get the economy working, keep people safe and reduce the death count in care homes. I suppose if he fails it will just be down to negative press, Jeremy Corbyn or antisemitism.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 07:08 AM

Don't forget the Chinese Dave - Trump has already claimed he has proof that they started it deliberately and had threatened revenge
Even if Jonno wants to clear up the economic mess left after Brexit, he has has to learn the White-House tango - The possibly looming economic crisis underlines that
My bet - it's China wot dunnit !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 08:07 AM

The Government has just announced that the language of the appeal to "stay at home" has been changed to "stay alert"
They have been confused of causing confusion - other parties will continue to urge that people stay at home
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 09:34 AM

BBC's Marr stuns Ashworth after blaming Labour for lockdown chaos 'Take responsbility!'
LABOUR has come under criticism for refusing to take some responsibility for the confused messaging around the UK lockdown, as BBC host Andrew Marr pointed at their repeated demands for an exit strategy.

Pretty bad   accusation when it comes from a doyen    of the left like red marr.   I guess the BBC    is finlly realisinng their PARTISAN days are numbered.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 09:49 AM

3 hours from my saying they will blame Jeremy Corbyn to blaming Labour for lockdown chaos. Is this some sort of record? :-)

Funny how Labour is dead and buried one minute and being a major cause of the governments failure the next! You couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:17 AM

"3 hours from my saying they will blame Jeremy Corbyn to blaming Labour for lockdown chaos. Is this some sort of record? :-)"
What did you expect
Of course Corbyn is to blame for not obeying HMV - even though it has been pretty well condemned as it was uttered as being "diversive and confusing" - reported by the media even
Mar has condemned Labour for first pushing for a lockdown plan then refusing to accept Johnson's half-cocked idea without challenge
Good job Johnson didn't suggest that everybody pretend the virus was a all a hoax - as he might well have done from his past performance
Mar may have been a "leftie" in his youth but he now describes that as the "indisgressions of foolish" youth, and took a job at the 'leftie', no doubt'
Daily Express to prove it
Some people would try to make political capital out of a Holocaust
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:18 AM

Well the report referred to by the poster at 09.34 AM was from the far-right Daily Express, one of the tabloids miffed by being blamed for propagating the mixed messages that have been coming out lately apropos of relaxing the lockdown, so we can take their gloss on the story with a bucket of salt. Said poster even copied and pasted the headline, neglecting to correct the Express's misspelling of "responsibility." I've watched the clip twice and can see no trace of Ashworth having been "stunned" by Marr's rather circuitous questioning.

And this beauty:

"Pretty bad   accusation when it comes from a doyen    of the left like red marr.   I guess the BBC    is finlly realisinng their PARTISAN days are numbered." [sic]

...is definitely one for the archives! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:20 AM

Impressive, isn't it, how happy some people are to compare how they 'imagine' Corbyn would have handled this, while adamantly refusing to compare our leaders with those other leaders in the world who are actually having the same job of handling it as we are. No, you can't compare other countries. The only valid comparison is our imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:23 AM

As I've said, Corbyn, had he been elected, would have been confronted by the same problems of a health and social care sector that has been dreadfully neglected by Tories for ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:36 AM

given the markedly different approach and competence of the english and the scottish government. and given that the westminster crew wilfully patronise or ignore the other 3 nations - should this thread be renamed 'english thread, politics and political ?'

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:52 AM

You may carve that in stone W.M.
The crisis that has become Northern Ireland seems to have been forgotten in all this
The number of casualties up there has led to the suggestion that the border might be closed to prevent a spread to the Republic

Wouldn't it be good is, instead o an undignifed scramble to find a way to blame the parties who have no voice in what is happening, some of the Tory supporters migh, just might just think for themselves and give us their opinions instead of those journalists they are quite happy to dis if they dare suggest the Government may be wrong
I've always expected more from Stanron and Nigel - the more 'Thinking mans Tory' types that are needed to add a bit of thought to these debates
We already know what Guido thinks (or doesn't) without the blogs
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 20 - 12:57 PM

An excellent article from Bella Caledonia - “Gaslighting The Virus”.

Although it’s almost a month old, it is no less true now than it was then - indeed, events since 17/4/20 lend even greater authority. No doubt the ‘bend down and take it up the arse from the toffs’ Brigade will be along shortly with their propaganda-induced, in-denial nonsense...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 01:53 PM

The crisis that has become Northern Ireland seems to have been forgotten in all this
The number of casualties up there has led to the suggestion that the border might be closed to prevent a spread to the Republic

Makes a   good    headline   but   sadly it is   utter poppycock. Perhaps we should close our border instead.

Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:37 PM

Wouldn't it be good is, instead o an undignifed scramble to find a way to blame the parties who have no voice in what is happening, some of the Tory supporters migh, just might just think for themselves and give us their opinions instead of those journalists they are quite happy to dis if they dare suggest the Government may be wrong
I've always expected more from Stanron and Nigel - the more 'Thinking mans Tory' types that are needed to add a bit of thought to these debates

What I think ( and as it doesn't inform policy it makes no real difference) is that Boris is "damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't".
The only thing that will make a real difference to the number of deaths (from the virus) in UK is whether/when a vaccine is produced. Without one, any lockdown only does what we've been told. "Flattens the curve to avoid overwhelming the NHS". Without a vaccine (but with lockdown) the total deaths will be about the same, but will take longer to 'achieve' (couldn't think of a better term, sorry). If this assumption is correct, then if lockdown can be eased earlier (without overpowering the NHS) then it should be to reduce the fact that the lockdown is beggaring the economy.
Over 70s should be treated the same as the general population (except for those in care homes) and allowed to choose the extent to which they are prepared to expose themselves to risk of infection.
If it is true that children are unlikely to catch/suffer from/pass on the virus then it is pointless ruining their education for no gain.
According to many polls, the UK citizens are already 'scared' of taking advantage of any reduction in lockdown (except for the idiots who believe it can never affect them, who do as they please anyway). Any gradual relaxation of lockdown is likely to be made even more gradual due to reticence on the part of the public.
Someone, somewhere, has to take the decisions, and to my mind it may as well be Boris. During WWII it was Churchill who made the ultimate decisions, and that probably led to him being voted out, but that is a price which would have to be paid if it also happens to Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:47 PM

I see it's now ok to go to work if you can't work from home but the schools are still out and we are not to use public transport. That should be fine. We can just leave the kids with Nanny and get James to bring the Bentley round...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:52 PM

The crisis that has become Northern Ireland seems to have been forgotten in all this
The number of casualties up there has led to the suggestion that the border might be closed to prevent a spread to the Republic

Makes a   good    headline   but   sadly it is   utter poppycock. Perhaps we should close our border instead.

Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths

C'mon Iains. Be fair the deaths are roughly equal when the relative populations are taken into account:
Northern Ireland 458 deaths/ population 1.8 million
R.O.I. 1458 deaths/ population 4.8 million
NI Deaths per million 254
R.O.I. Deaths per million 303

No massive difference.
But it doesn't support Jim's point either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:56 PM

Has the right wing media war on teachers unions kicked off
in preparation for boris's plan for infants schools being forced to reopen,
before sufficient PPE is made available to schools...????????????

Obvious answer - YES...!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Also..

How many south west seaside and beauty spot locals has boris now condemned to death
by freeing Brummies, Londoners,and other cooped up high risk city dwellers
to drive out for family day trips..

There goes our relatively low death rates...!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:04 PM

Nigel I fully   agree with you. It is said 80%   will catch the virus (Whether true or not is irrelevant) Of those that catch the virus a certain percentage in each country will die.   Only a vaccinne will change this reality and that could be years away. The hospitals have not been swamped, nightingale hospitals have been mothballed.
Logically this means there has been an over reaction and lockdown should be relaxed. It was only meant to protect the vulnerable, not destroy the economy or the foodchain. We have created a monster where people are totally risk averse, a totally ludicrous situation. The statistics determining those most at risk should now be fairly reliable. They are the people that should be shielded, everyone else should get back to work, school and university.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:07 PM

""damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"."
Sorry Nige - that is neither true nor is it relevant
The Government will be judges on it's performance in this case - even Trump knows this as he has played both sides against the middle by blaming everybody when things go wrong and taking credit when they go right
Neither business nor polls can be of the slightest interest here - the former have made it plain that they are prepared to 'take a chance with the people's lives' to offset a slump - try applying that to a wartime situation and see if it holds up
The polls can only be meaningful if those questioned have access to all the information - otherwise they are replying from a position of ignorance

The only people to have any real say has to be the medical experts otherwise other factors kick in - my opinion, of course

"Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths"
six counties to 28 you mean
Even the DUP has admitted they have been left dangling
As you say, "utter poppycock"
LATEST
CONRADICTIONS AND CONFUSION
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:08 PM

Has the right wing media war on teachers unions kicked off
in preparation for Boris's plan for infants schools being forced to reopen, before sufficient PPE is made available to schools...????????????
Obvious answer - YES...!!!!!!!!!

As there is not yet a re-start date for schools, it is impossible to know whether PPE will be available when that happens.

From the speech:
In step two – at the earliest by June 1 – after half term – we believe we may be in a position to begin the phased reopening of shops and to get primary pupils back into schools, in stages, beginning with reception, Year 1 and Year 6.

Basic message, don't overreact to what you think you heard.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:20 PM

"If it is true that children are unlikely to catch/suffer from/pass on the virus then it is pointless ruining their education for no gain."

Well maybe you think schools are like fairyland, with no crush at the gate at the school run, no teachers, no cleaners, no canteen staff, no classroom assistants, no caretaker or school librarian, no lunchtime supervisors, no school bus drivers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:23 PM

"It is said 80%   will catch the virus (Whether true or not is irrelevant)"

Archetypal weasel words. Said by who? And if it is true I happen to think it's bloody relevant!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:24 PM

Nigel - Reception are the least controllable in terms of social distancing,
[herding cats is a doddle in comparison...]
and amongst the most likely to be bringing and spreading death into classrooms..

The tory far right hate teachers,
maligning them as commie multicultralist brainwashers of British nationalist's children...

This outright prejudice is behind much of far right tory attitudes towards the teaching profession.

There will be much far right vindictive glee at the prospect of teachers & their families
falling ill and dying,
as a result of callous tory govt reopening plans...

The Mail and others will attack and slur teacher's unions trying to protect their members..

You know this to be true...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:44 PM

"will attack and smear.."

effin google voice recognition, and small phone screens...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:47 PM

Looking on the bright side - woefully missing here!!!, there does seem to be a slight upward trend in recoveries.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:56 PM

Bonz - we all gotta keep our fingers crossed on that...

Over 30,000 dead..

Intensive Care Doctors surely must have learnt something more positive by now,
from that cruel trial and error experience...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 20 - 04:21 PM

I am fully aware of the dedication of ICU medical teams. My wife was in the ICU at ST George's Tooting, for some time after surgery for a subdural haematoma, and a nurse was by her bedside 24/7.

I think it will be trial and error for some time to come yet, until a vaccine is available.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 04:53 PM

"Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths"
six counties to 28 you mean
No!
Northern Ireland population 1.882 million
Republic population 4.904 million.

2.6 times the population in the south
3.1 times the death rate.
you are not very good at this are you? It is always best to compare apples with apples. Introducing oranges is but a distraction to try to mask that the argument is lost.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 05:39 PM

I thought some new rules had been brought in during my absence. I don't see much evidence of them being effective as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 20 - 05:41 PM

But he didn't say 81% would get it, as I read that quotation. He said In the (unlikely) absence of any control measures ... In such scenarios, given an estimatedR0of 2.4, we predict 81% ...

So 81% if the R0 cannot be brought down by control measures. That is quite a different thing to saying 81% will get it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 20 - 05:52 PM

Oh, and why has 'protect the NHS' been dropped from the slogans, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:21 AM

I had a fairly long ramble on that Andrew Marr comment but decided expressing what I meant would be far too long, so I will stick to the heart of the point.

In Parliament today, under the 'cross examination' of the paper by Keir Starmer, Boris Johnson is likely to make statements that dwarf the confusion of last night's little chat and accelerate the death rate. We will know in something between two and three weeks. If the death rate has risen substantially by then, it will be due to the decisions and statements on these two days. They will not be due to Starmer's interrogation, even though the statements Boris makes will be in direct response to those questions.

The rate will inevitably rise somewhat under any relaxation of lockdown. So let us set an arbitrary definition of 'substantial': I would regard to 33% more than yesterday's number of deaths (465 + 33%) as substantial.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:55 AM

I watched with horror as Jonson's poison chalice of total confusion to the British people was reflected in the interviews that followed - "We don't know where we stand now" was the message that came bounding back loud and clear
The situation has been ade even worse by the fact that it is to be 'clarified' (if that's the word) in stages throughout the week rather than being given in one clear, understandable message
The interviews with the representatives from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland gave a cler picture of a fragmented 'Disunited' Kingdom - at a time we are told we should - "All pull together" - they made it qite clear they will plough their own individual furrows.
Brexit began the break-up of the U.K. - the pandemic has just delivered the coup-de-grace
Criminal insanity

"Troll posts are still not being moderated."
I think a little leeway is called for here Steve - when someone finds themselves bereft of rational argument a little personal abuse is to be expected with a little mask-slipping
Leave him to dig
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 20 - 03:07 AM

Troll posts need no moderation if those being trolled ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 20 - 03:50 AM

and another expert:
Epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke writes in The Lancet…

“… facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:12 AM

Summary of government advice from yesterday

Hold a chicken in the air
Stick a deckchair up your nose
Fly a jumbo jet
And then bury all your clothes

Spitting image, where are you when we need you?

Mind you. I'm not sure if this lot need caracatures.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:17 AM

That is the second time you have quoted that, Iains. I didn't bother pointing it out last time, but it is not an *article* in the Lancet (which would be subject to detailed assessment before it appeared): it is 'Correspondence', which is not subject to anything like the same scrutiny. In effect, like a letter anywhere, it is the opinion of the author(s), not the result of a formal study. So presenting as 'from the Lancet' is somewhat misleading for the unwary.

He is entitled to his opinion, of course, and as an epidemiologist Professor that opinion carries more weight than yours or mine. But it does not carry more weight than other epidemiologists who disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:17 AM

What happens a year from now will depend entirely on what happens now and what happens now depends entirely depends on the advice the people at risk are given
What was apparent from last night's fiasco was the advice being given was not based on medical considerations but on a calculated risk based on economic considerations - the money men in the cabinet won the day
This is very buch like the military decisions taken during WWI where each foot of land was measured in human lives - the only difference being that the calculated strategies have been replaced by yet another leap in the dark - (Brexit was enough for one lifetime, surely)
My sister in Liverpool summed it up perfectly on the phone last night - "we don't know whether it's safe to go out or not"
I hope Dave's Dr Reid get's to head the tribunal which investigate the behaviour of these prickens
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Hopefully we will get some clearer idea later this week. I agree that last nights statement was confusing BUT the general drift of relaxing the restrictions with the proviso of implementing them again if need be, is the way to proceed. Other countries are also relaxing their restrictions, so we are not alone in doing so.

Is it safe to go out or not? Well depends on how you judge safety. Personally I am at risk from more cyclists on the pavement and speeding motorists, though there are fewer cars on the road. In the event that I do get knocked down, I will express my disappointment at their not keeping the 2 m safe distance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:56 AM

Once again, the government is showing it has not the faintest idea of how infections spread. Raab has been on the radio confusinf things even more this morning and the government has said, by way of clarification:

Mr Raab, asked if someone could meet up with both their parents in a park, told BBC Radio 4: “Well, you could if there's two metres apart.”

But a government source quickly withdrew the statement, telling The Independent: “They can see both parents, but not at the same time – they would have to see them individually.”


Whether an infected person sees two people simultaneously for half an hour, or one after the other for half an hour each (with or without a gap) makes not a jot of difference.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 05:09 AM

"Other countries are also relaxing their restrictions, so we are not alone in doing so."
Ther countries have progressed far further than Britain in the fight and came ou only when that believed to do so - not on the suck-it-ad-see basis this mob has
The first and worst hit, China, is now offering help to others - lets hope they are taken up enough before Trump makes good his promise of revenge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 05:39 AM

Reports on the radio say that some of those who have opened up are seeing a rise in cases again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:16 AM

We need a list in words of one syllable of things we CAN and CAN'T do. I've never seen such a shambles. I don't want to know what I should or shouldn't do, I don't want any "advice" about it and I don't want any "if possibles." Should be easy enough for a government that made such a radiant triumph of brexit... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:22 AM

Goverment trurn policy lambased in The Times this morning
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-david-spiegelhalter-criticises-ministers-over-failure-to-prioritise-random-covid-19-testing-lzv2ttxsc
The both the statistics and the method of gathring them is described as being flawed and the figures claimed could well be much higher

Apologists - one stop forward - NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:35 AM

I don't want to know what I should or shouldn't do

Nor does Raab.

Apparently the government advice is you can meet one person. Rabb was asked on the radio if that meant you could meet both parents (assuming social distancing)

Yes, says Raab that's ok.

Immediately the government spokesman clarifies, that you can see both, but not at the same time.

This proves
(1) The message is so confusing even the guy you chose to do almost every daily press conference can't understand it.

(2) The government spokesmen doesn't understand that it does almost nothing whatever to your parents' risk of infection if you see them together for 30 minutes, or one after the other for 30 minutes each even with a gap of a day or two (though the latter might increase your risk if you are out more).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:00 AM

Oh, and why has 'protect the NHS' been dropped from the slogans, I wonder?
Because the NHS came nowhere near getting swamped and Nightingale hospitals have been stood down,
The name of the game was:
protect the vulnerable
reduce the spread of infection to levels that could be dealt with.without strain on the NHS.

Stopping infection in its tracks is not going to happen without a cure. Thus far there is not one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:01 AM

Wanna know about governmental confusion? This is from today's Labour List (hardly a mouthpiece of the rabid left):

Boris Johnson urged those not able to work from home to return to their workplaces “this week”, with the understanding being that this meant Monday. And the government still hasn’t finalised its back-to-work guidance, having only consulted trade unions on an earlier draft that was unfinished and heavily criticised. So much for building consensus, as promised on the PM’s first day back. As Ed Miliband tweeted: “If it was about MPs, chief executives or middle class professionals the PM would never have ordered a return to work at 12 hours notice without guidance or clarity about safety”. Even more confusingly, Dominic Raab has said this morning that people are actually being urged to return on Wednesday, not today. The word ‘omnishambles’ comes to mind.

The PM’s statement did not address the main day-to-day concerns of many. He made clear that sunbathing in the park and playing sports with members of our household would be permitted, but whether we can visit family members while distancing was not mentioned. It has now been clarified that you’re allowed to meet parents in an outdoor space (not a garden) with two metres between you, though Raab and No 10 disagree over whether it is one or two parents that can be met at the same time.

The statement was effectively a declaration of class war. Those who can work from home are more likely to be better paid, and they can protect themselves, whereas those in construction and manufacturing must put their lives on the line so that bosses can protect their profits. I wrote in this email two weeks ago: Labour must help to ensure that workers are protected and prioritised, and that the Tories cannot put private wealth ahead of public health while bringing the UK out of lockdown. But that is exactly what the government is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:36 AM

Maybe the guidance for meeting parents could be similar to the guidance given on a sign seen in 1974 in the pub in Broadford, Isle of Skye: "Credit is available for people over 90 as long as they are accompanied by both parents."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 08:07 AM

Another change of mind
Those in essential (to business) work who can't work from home have been reprieved until Wednesday but have been told to avoid using public transport - glad I don't live in London any more
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Londoners, thinking today was when they should go back to work, have piled onto tubes and buses
It will be all their fault when the virus count rises - of course !!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:11 AM

I am told today's press conference is being replaced by a Question and Answer session. Whether this is just today or the future plan is not clear.

The press conferences did not throw much light on things, certainly after the first few, but they did show some. I hope they will continue to make the slides available to the public, whether they show them at the meeting or not. For all their many limitations, they are the most solid of the information we get.   The figures for transport over the next few days will be informative, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:14 AM

Government offical document: Our Plan to Rebuild

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:26 PM

It is not hyperbole to suggest there are tory free market ideologue zealots,
who still have as little regard for the lives of workers
as their Victorian forbears..

They still write us off as cheap disposable and easily replaced navvies and coolies...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:32 PM

"forebears"...

If google had voice transcribed as "4 bears"..
at least I'd have noticed that before posting...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 04:26 AM

What the ruling party supporters think of relaxing lockdown.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/05/our-snap-survey-over-half-of-our-tory-member-panel-backs-johnsons-plan-a-t

Looks like Boris deserves a big pst on the back for getting it just right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:13 AM

I clicked on that link you posted Iains:

Article Not Found
We can't find what you were looking for.

Seems in keeping with the last couple of days communication (or lack of communication) from the government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:15 AM

Looks like they changed their mind pretty quicky ARTICLE NOT FOUND
What else is nodding dog conservative site going to say except Our Fuherer is doing a great job?
Nobody know whether to go to work yesterday or Wednesday - they were told not to use public transport yet the tubes where the usual wheeled sardine cans - it's still not safe to congregate and won't be until the experts say it is and Johnson is allowing employers damand their workers return to work is they see fit
Only a moron with , a chauffeur, no family and a death wish would describe that nonsense as "a great job" - it's lethal madness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:21 AM

Try this:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/05/our-snap-survey-over-half-of-our-tory-member-panel-backs-johnsons-plan-a-third-want-a-sweden-style-looser-lockdown.html
There is no point in winning a war on lockdown and subsequently losing a war on want. The branches on the magic money tree are fast depleting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:34 AM

From your link Iains:

"Yes, the launch of this new phase was very messy. Yes, there are lots of unanswered questions about the policy that should be answered. And, yes, the process of putting it together has been, ConHome hears, shambolic.
But that could doubtless have been said about much of government planning during World War Two. Our sense is that most voters understand that point very well."

Their sense and my sense are not the same. I imagine that even you have to agree that the last couple of days have been handled very badly by the government. They needed to be clearer and they should have been clearer. Let us hope that they get their act together quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:46 AM

I think there is a problem with the 'blue clicky' mechanism that it cannot cope with very long links; as in Iains example it truncates the link part way through and you get "page not found". Then your reader is left with searching through the site to see if they can find what you meant ... which is what I did.

This was a survey of 1300 or so Conservative party members. Hardly an unbiased sample, as Iains acknowledged. It is not even demonstrably representative of regular party voters, never mind of those who voted Conservative in the last election. So the value of the survey is at best questionable.

There is a lot of talk about driving the decisions to slacken off lockdown based on the R_value. I must admit to a nervousness about the way this is being bandied around.   There is not really any such thing. There is a single R value that is fed into fairly primitive models, but I would hope the actual models are more refined than that and recognise that you need a granular approach. Just thinking about where I live the R-value (for Southampton) is not the same as the R-value (for Hampshire), or the R-value (for South East England) or the R value (for England) or the R-value (for the UK). The R-value for Bude is not the same as for Southampton. The R value for England is not the same as Wales or Scotland.   The R-value for care homes is not the same as for hospitals, or for the general population. Moreover, the closer you are to 1, the more these distinctions matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:51 AM

Raindog These are unprecedented times. The situation is fluid, hardly surprising everyone is not instantly on the same page. It does not help that the media and opposition are using every trick in the book to muddy the message. Absolutely disgusting behavior that will be given pride of place in the next election campaign. Luckily the electorate is not stupid and Labor will pay for their sins with an even greater drubbing come the next election. The longer lockdown goes on the greater the longterm damage to the economy. Being a third world country is not pleasant. Be careful what you wish for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:02 AM

They needed to be clearer and they should have been clearer.

And, as Keir Starmer pointed out on Monday, they could very easily have been clearer simply by releasing the documents at the same time they made the announcements, rather than having them dribble out over the next few days. That was quite within their control, and they decided not to do so, for whatever reason.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:20 AM

Iains I agree about the need to start making plans and have said so previously. At no time have I expressed a wish for the Uk to become a third world country.

Come the next election what will the electorate remember? Well that will probably be another 4 years or so but I imagine they will not remember what people said or didn't say. It is more likely they will remember the loss of lives, the lockdown, the possible loss of jobs, the closure of schools etc etc. Now if they wish to blame anyone for that, I think they might look at those in charge, even if those in charge are not responsible for everything that happens.

DMcG, indeed it was handled very badly. We can only speculate as to the reason why. It does remind of the documentary, I think it was on the BBC, about the Foreign Office when Boris was in charge. There is that element of ' a bull in a china shop' about him at times.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:36 AM

The government tries nightly to befuddle the country with daft little pseudo-technical graphs ("next slide please...") in nice colours, the sort of thing I'd have been shot down for by my science tutors at teacher training college, and vacuous talk of an R number, bouncing up and down its scale like those strong-man things that you hit with a hammer on fairgrounds, as if it's just a sweeping single country-wide thing (as DMcG so ably demolishes). These things are attempts to put a respectable face on gross incompetence. Any day now we'll have Johnson imploring us to "get R done," you'll see. It's disconcerting to see the highly-respectable Chris Whitty squirming unhappily. One day I'll buy his memoirs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:47 AM

"losing a war on want."
If Tories the in slightest cared about want they'd have done something about the hardship and poverty they and their predecessors have created - far from your being concerned about it, you have always put the interests of private property way above those of the needy - I'm sure nobody here how you denigrated a politician with a conscience for suggesting that survivors of a horendous fire, caused by profiteers cutting safety corners, might be housed in some of the many unused vacant properties in the immediate vicinity of that fire - you used it to make the suggestion that thet politician was unfit for public office
That's what Toryism has always been about
Don't you mean "profit" - which is what this step to soon is
Even Boris the Brainless opposed the pressures of big business now hey have won and he hasn't got a fecking clue where to go
Just go and dig up the news of yesterday's chaos for an example of Government policy
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/boris-johnson-london-transport-back-to-work-coronavirus-lockdown-a4436836.html
MORE GOOD WORK
Maybe the Tories should confine themselves to runningg piss-ups in breweries - chaos isn't that important when you're pissed
Good job my arseum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:48 AM

“When the business of government becomes limited to populist set pieces, its ranks are purged of doers and populated instead with cheerleaders. This is how we ended up with the current cast of dazed-in-headlights Tory cabinet members.“

A very telling piece from Nesrine Malik in the Guardian - a publication refusing to lie down in the face of the horse-shit of Populism and Right-Wing Extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:51 AM

Dunno even about that, Jim. Mr Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery (which God preserve) was on the radio this morning, and it sounded like he wouldn't want a Tory anywhere near his brewery...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:44 AM

The opposition, who we are told is useless and has no power whatsoever, is now able to cloud the issue with the help of the media, who made such a good job of demolishing that same opposition before.

Funny old world init. Do those putting these tales about really think that we cannot remember back to pre virus days?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:49 AM

There are reports of police stopping people on Southampton Common distributing flyers for a protest meeting about lockdown. I have been sent a copy of the purported poster, but of course the police cannot publish it directly without promoting the event (if it is even genuine and not a figment of the flyposters imagination.)

For what it is worth it is the full of the antivax, 5G and other conspiracies. If I get more evidence it is genuine I will post a version with dates and locations redacted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:59 AM

Hampshire Police have posted about it on their facebook page. However they have given the date and time which seems a bit stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 08:08 AM

Hampshire Police summary

I have been a bit hard on them: they give the date and general location but that is all.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 08:25 AM

The opposition, who we are told is useless and has no power whatsoever, is now able to cloud the issue with the help of the media.

Precisely. Your argument is hinged on help. On their own they are absolutely useless. That is why they lost the election. Now that was a time when the opposition message was confused.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 08:34 AM

So the opposition is completely useless, ineffectual, totally sidelined, consigned to history, utterly confused, permanently trashed, unelectable for generations. If they really are as bad as all that, am I out of order in thinking that any member of the far right who shows a weird and sustained obsession with them must be, er, slightly mad...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 May 20 - 09:28 AM

sadly, that has been clear for quite a long time, steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 12 May 20 - 09:39 AM

It's a jungle out there
People sowin confusion everywhere
No one one seems to care, well I do HEY
who's in charge here?

It's a jungle out there
Poison in the very air we breathe
You know whats in the water that you drink
Well I do, its ..so.. crazy
People think I'm crazy that I worry all the time
If you paid attention you'd be worried too
You better pay attention or this world we love so much

Might.. Just.. Kill You

I could be wrong now......But I don't think so

Cuz there's a jungle out there
It's a jungle out there


Randy Newman

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 09:49 AM

A half decent opposition was doomed to failure from the point that Corbyn attracked the rabid hatred of the right-wing press and combined with 'New Labour dross and a little assistance from Israel, managed to paint a picture of an inept party which had abandoned its former internationalist principles
The youngsters weren't fooled and flocked to the party - most of them remain
The latest leader chances of filling in Corbyn's giant shoes is indicated by the fact that our resident right-wing M.Ms are treating him like a long lost brother
It will be interesting to see the reaction of the public after the fiaso of Brexit and the continuing fiasco that. rather than fighting the pandemic, stands to turn it into a killing field
And then will come the recession where everybody but the rich will be told they have to tighten their belts
You may be able to foll some of the people some of the time, but there is a limit on how far this dangerously crass bunch can continue to lie and con

Now we will be told by someone who hates the British Press, hates the British judiciary system, thinks the British Police are bias and corrupt and despises the slightly less than half who voted to stay in Europe that it's "Anglo-phobic' to criticise the clowns
Let's see if he can get his other mask on in time :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 10:48 AM

Steve - let's not waste time expecting logic and consistency
from fanatical propagandists,
whose prime directive is to win by any means;
no matter how unfair or foul...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 11:19 AM

In other words, paraphrasing Machiavelli,
(a notable earliest tory party adviser..)

"The bellends justify the meanies"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 20 - 11:37 AM

A half decent opposition was doomed to failure from the point that Corbyn attracked the rabid hatred of the right-wing press

That can't be right, Jim. After all, if the press hate the left wing, why would they be helping them to cause confusion now? Surely that nice fluffy Mr Johnson and his supporters can't be looking for a scape goat can they? Not that they have done any wrong of course... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:03 PM

I wasn't remotely expecting logic and consisistency, pfr. I hate to be perennially and terminally disappointed...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:27 PM

I hate to be perennially and terminally disappointed...

Yet constantly you support Labour and rail against brexit ???????????.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:30 PM

My mrs has a similar arguing style to the tories..

She'll never admit she's wrong - saying the first thing that comes into her head,
to deflect, deny, distract, and shift all blame to me..

Then she sulkily play the victim, still trying to get my sympathy, and her own way..

If that don't work, she'll carry on sulking just to punish me for daring to point out
she was in the wrong in the first place...

I've had nearly 40 years experience dealing with this,
which has helped make me such a perceptive judge of tory tactics...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:40 PM

"Yet constantly you support Labour"

As crap and disappointing as Labour can be at their worst, there's still no better alternative...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:14 PM

As crap and disappointing as Labour can be at their worst, there's still no better alternative...

Yeah! That why the Labour labelled "deplorable, stupid, racist" majority put the tories in government and labour are the governed.
Its a tough world outside the bubble.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:26 PM

Be honest.. tories need the majority to be stupid, and a bit racist, useful idiots
to grasp and maintain power...

You right wingers depend on populist media like the Mail
to do your dirty work,
in creating the cultural conditions to keep their readership as stupid and racist as possible...

But of course you would flatteringly / cynically call them all "smart voters"
to achieve your ends of political domination...

.. you can't fool us....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:27 PM

I just received an email which brilliantly shows just how irrational the government thinking is.

A friend is a primary school teacher. The government wants her to take on a class of 15 four year olds. BUT she is being told she cannot see her own grandchildren of the same age.

Now perhaps someone on the right here could explain that because I'm damned if I can see the logic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:38 PM

My wife is a reception/year 1 teacher.. she's nearly 60..

and the tories will deliberately put her in harms way with no PPE...

At no point has any tory minister, or adviser,
even mentioned only deploying younger more virus resistant teachers from June 1st...???

Appallingly fukwitted callous murderous tory govt planning...

Yet the teachers unions will be demonised by the right for daring to advocate protecting school staff...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:40 PM

I said I would post a redacted form of the poster being given out in Southampton once I knew it was genuine.

The similarity to the sections of the US protesting lockdown is remarkable.

As to your logic question Raggytash: it can't be explained because there is none. That is not being abusive or snide, it is literally the case. The idea is to do what they think will statistically give the desired result (whether it will or not is another matter). Within all those people, there will be some where what is being asked for is logically absurd, but that doesn't matter, statistically speaking, because such oddities are part of the stats.

When you look at real people with real lives, of course, it matters greatly to them, but when you just look at, say, one million people as a whole, they get lost in the numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:51 PM

Raggy - since the rapid dominance of global social media,
the Alt Right propagandist influencers are targeting the UK as a quasi US state...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:54 PM

apologies - that post should have been addressed to DMcG ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:37 PM

Be honest.. tories need the majority to be stupid, and a bit racist, useful idiots
to grasp and maintain power...
I guess that guarantees a further sojourn in the wilderness. Some just never learn!

meanwhile back to reality.
An interesting article on Covid-19 with some educational tables that make the case for relaxing lockdown for all but the vulnerable, and getting most people back to work.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2020/04/09/adjusting-covid-19-expectations-to-the-age-profile-of-deaths/
The figures used are raw. There are differences in what is recorded and the way it is recorded, both over   time annd bbbetween coutries. To take the raw figures the risk increases with age. For the middle aged there is no way of determining co-morbidities such as obesity, diabetes, COPD, etc. They obviously exist and impact the figures, but the detail is not there to assign numerical values. It is likely the true morbidity for younger age groups is actually lower than shown for fit people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:52 PM

deflect, deny, distract, and shift all blame...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:56 PM

deflect, deny, distract, and shift all blame...
Is that a Labour party political Broadcast?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 20 - 04:01 PM

I suppose that they would pay the piper calls the tune, perhaps this is the reason that the Equalities Watchdog Commission has taken the decision not be investigate the Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:23 AM

" Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.
Rather puts paid to the shite about the Tories worrying about racial and ethnic discrimination once and for all, I think
The Tory Party is the breeding ground of racial and ethnic discrimination - it always was and always will by
The Conservative 'Right Club' ser up prior to W.W.2. set up by Conservative Archibald Ramsey to 'crush the Jewish menace', campaigned into the war and organised a provisional government for "when Herr Hitler won his rightful fight against this threat"   
Ramsey and others were imprisoned during the war, but later returned to Parliament and continued to campaign against the Jews, despite six million of them having been exterminated by his preferred leader
HIS LEGACY CONTINUES UP TO THE PRESENT DAY
AS DO ITS NEAR RELATIVES
AND ANOTHER
There have never been enquirers into any of these atrocities and there never will be, which rather puts the virulent and continuing attacks an Labour so-called "anti-semitism" into context
Even if a fraction of it had any basis (until it can be proved that Lambour members attack the Jewish People , it never will have) it measures minutely next to Tories race-hating giant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:39 AM

I've been told often enough - while we respond to this feller he's gonna keep ignoring it so we may as well use him to put his party where it belongs
It's not often you are handed a 'live-'un' as an on-the-spot example to illustrate what you mean
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:41 AM

Statistics Save Lives

A performance can be found on https://www.wiltshirecreative.co.uk/whats-on/wiltshire-creative-connects/louise-jordan

Used properly, she - and Florence Nightingale who inspired this song - are quite right. Used properly, science and maths can save lives. But unfortunately, of course, they can also be abused. If you lose sight of the fact that a mathematical model is a model and not reality, you can end up costing lives very easily.   It is important to recognise, for example, that society is not partitioned, or easily partitionable, by age, in the workplace or in the home. A lot of homes, for example, are mixed across several generations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 20 - 04:04 AM

I suppose that they would pay the piper calls the tune, perhaps this is the reason that the Equalities Watchdog Commission has taken the decision not be investigate the Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.
The extreme left would say that (as Mandy Rice-Davies was wont to say) to deflect attention away from the fact that it is the Labour party being investigated for anti semitism by the Equality and Human Rights Commission
In May 2019, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) announced an inquiry into whether Labour had "unlawfully discriminated against, harassed or victimised people because they are Jewish".
They have yet to release their findings.
No smoke without fire!
Obviously trying to accuse the Tories of similar crimes is but a groundless slur as no investigation is pending

Was not chucklebutty elevated to the Lords for producing a whitewash
when an internal investigation concluded?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 20 - 04:09 AM

It is important to recognize, for example, that society is not partitioned, or easily partitionable, by age, in the workplace or in the home. A lot of homes, for example, are mixed across several generations.

Obviously essential workers have learnt to deal with the problem otherwise the supermarkets would have emptied weeks ago and you and many others would be starving.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 May 20 - 04:16 AM

did we ever get an inquiry into the Windrush incidents and the hostile environment for british citizens? when discrimination and heartless bigotry was official government policy

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 20 - 04:45 AM

Obviously essential workers have learnt to deal with the problem

Have they? I haven't seen any figures that support that. We know, for example, that Uber drivers are at significantly higher risk of infection than the general population. Have we any figures of whether their households are at heightened risk compared to the general population? Given that coming in contact with an infected person is how you get it, I would assume they are, but haven't seen any analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 04:47 AM

"They have yet to release their findings."
Probably because they were found to be groundless
You haven't aomment on the serial racism of the party you fanatically defend - all based on documented fact aand none inquired into
Why on earth should you when absolutism is far safer
Claims of 'antisemitism' against a party largely created by Jews fleeing Eropen pogroms, started within four weeks of Corbyn decalring his support for the Palestinian People against Israeli state terrorism - probably a coincidence, of course !!!
Not a shred of evidence that Antisemitism is a serious problem has emerged since
NEVER ACTED ON
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 05:32 AM

I've just thought of a new clause to the definition to add to the growing list being invented by Iareali terrorism supporters
"If it's something you can accuse the Labour Party of without proof - it's antisemitic
This does not apply to right-wing people or parties
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 20 - 05:54 AM

"Obviously trying to accuse the Tories of similar crimes is but a groundless slur as no investigation is pending"

Non seq and untrue in any case. The Tories are carrying out an internal investigation into Islamophobia in their ranks, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission is monitoring it closely and they will intervene if they are not satisfied that the investigation is being properly conducted. Comment is free but facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 20 - 06:19 AM

The equalities watchdog has dropped plans to launch an inquiry into Tory Islamophobia.

Obviously not enough smoke to justify an enquiry unlike the ongoing investigation into Labour's alleged antisemitism.
and it is best we do not look too closely at starmers record of turning a blind eye to the naughtiness of a certain demographic when he was DPP

From the Times: Keir Starmer, QC, the Director of Public Prosecutions, said that men who groomed teenagers for sex had escaped justice for decades because police, prosecutors and the courts failed to understand the nature of the abuse.
Mr Starmer has ordered a comprehensive restructuring of the Crown Prosecution Service’s response to sex grooming, designed to raise the number of convictions.
An Inconvenient truth as al gore would say!
The reforms come after an in-depth review of the CPS’s initial reluctance to charge men involved in a notorious sex-grooming network in Rochdale, Greater Manchester.
They will apply to the handling of all current and historic cases of sexual exploitation involving girls and boys,

ALL on Labour's watch.
A recent government report on the same subject has been kept from the public because the findings are so explosive. But an online petition will force the government to address the issue in Parliament, despite their constant prevarication and failure to adhere to their own guidelines.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grooming-gangs-review-sajid-javid-release-petition-home-office-a9483796.html
An inconvenient truth as al gore would say

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:05 AM

Sorry, but you're not getting away with that. We are not stupid. A quote from the Mail, with some horse' s mouth stuff:

The EHRC said it would allow the internal [Tory Party] probe to take its course, but reserved legal powers to intervene if it was unsatisfied with the conduct of the inquiry.   

'We have given very careful consideration to complaints raised about discrimination and Islamophobia in the Conservative Party,' a spokesman said.

'We have concluded, in the light of the decision by the party to institute an independent investigation, that it would not be proportionate to initiate our own investigation at this stage.

'If we are not satisfied with progress or how the investigation is conducted we will review our decision and do not rule out the use of our legal powers.'

You said that there was no investigation pending. Either you were trying to lie to us or you were speaking out of ignorance. Care to tell us us which, or are you going to carry on sidestepping?

And if you look back over the last few months you will find plenty of allegations about Tory Islamophobia. You can rattle on all you like about Labour antisemitism, which IS being independently investigated. Perhaps you'd care to await its outcome (rather than shooting off about smoke and fire, etc.), which, in case you haven't noticed, is the way we do things in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:16 AM

It will be a total farce if it is not allowed
The Accusations were made several years ago ant the fact that it has been totally ignored since then while rabbid calls for Corbyn to be burned alive on no evidence whatsoever have never stopped
The Muslim Council has called for enquires several times - the last time was i March
The fact that those calls have been ignored is Islamophobic in itself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:24 AM

Divert and distract. Bozzer and his band of murky men are making a pigs ear of managing the health crisis. Look! Labour antisemitism! The Tories are being investigated for Islamophobia. Look! Labour antisemitism!

I bet some people who an they had not started crying wolf so long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:29 AM

I bet some people wished they had not etc.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:34 AM

It's a friggin' farce and always has been
Israel, America and Russia now have a fee run to deciding who Britain's politicians should be and the ERHC needs to be very careful as we have a queue of nutters lined up to demand that setting up inquiries into Corrupt Brexiteers and thuggish Nazis who beat up members of the public should be punishable by having their fingernails pulled out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 20 - 08:02 AM

Sorry, but you're not getting away with that. We are not stupid
NO COMMENT!

Divert and distract. Bozzer and his band of murky men are making a pigs ear of managing the health crisis. Look! Labour antisemitism! The Tories are being investigated for Islamophobia. Look! Labour antisemitism!

apportion blame where blame is due I always say
For your delectation and delight the guilty parties trying a bit of whataboutism. I suggest you take issue with them!

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 12 May 20 - 04:01 PM
I suppose that they would pay the piper calls the tune, perhaps this is the reason that the Equalities Watchdog Commission has taken the decision not be investigate the Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:23 AM

" Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.

Now, where were we??

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 08:15 AM

"Now, where were we??"
You evading every single point made apparently
Try this bit of evasion by serial liar Johnson who has just 'explained' the 10,000 unexplained deaths in British care homes by describing them as "tragic'
"Oh to be in England" - definitely not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 08:35 AM

Incidentally - why is your mangling of what you claim ERHC decide on more valid than your claim that the DPP were biased when they charged Robinson or the Poice's reason for Arresting the same feller for assault ?
All of a sudden you've given yourself the right to claim that they are correct not to pursue en enquiry while on the other hand to demand they be punished for wasting public money when they enquire into an obviously bent-as-a- corkscrew
Can you give us the number of your hot-line to the upper-echelons - might come in handy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 20 - 08:42 AM

Try this bit of evasion by serial liar Johnson who has just 'explained' the 10,000 unexplained deaths in British care homes by describing them as "tragic'
"Oh to be in England" - definitely not

Funy you should mention that:

https://principia-scientific.org/scotlands-real-corona-virus-crisis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A

    [Imperial College epidemiologist Neil] Ferguson was behind the disputed research that sparked the mass culling of eleven million sheep and cattle during the 2001 outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. He also predicted that up to 150,000 people could die. There were fewer than 200 deaths. . . .

    In 2002, Ferguson predicted that up to 50,000 people would likely die from exposure to BSE (mad cow disease) in beef. In the U.K., there were only 177 deaths from BSE.

    In 2005, Ferguson predicted that up to 150 million people could be killed from bird flu. In the end, only 282 people died worldwide from the disease between 2003 and 2009.

    In 2009, a government estimate, based on Ferguson’s advice, said a “reasonable worst-case scenario” was that the swine flu would lead to 65,000 British deaths. In the end, swine flu killed 457 people in the U.K.

    Last March, Ferguson admitted that his Imperial College model of the COVID-19 disease was based on undocumented, 13-year-old computer code that was intended to be used for a feared influenza pandemic, rather than a coronavirus. Ferguson declined to release his original code so other scientists could check his results. He only released a heavily revised set of code last week, after a six-week delay.

    So the real scandal is: Why did anyone ever listen to this guy?


https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/05/08/so-the-real-scandal-is-why-did-anyone-ever-listen-to-this-guy/

Not too clever in your backyard either, but I have already told you this some days ago,or perhaps it was deleted.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/05/12/irish-government-under-fire-over-covid-19-deaths-in-care-homes
and


https://www.euronews.com/2020/05/08/the-deadly-impact-of-covid-19-on-europe-s-care-home

Try putting your wild accusations in the wider context!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 13 May 20 - 08:45 AM

Can you give us the number of your hot-line to the upper-echelons - might come in handy
Sorry. the lower orders cannot be trusted with such data

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 09:13 AM

"Sorry. the lower orders cannot be trusted with such data"
Only the mental midgets apparently - makes sense !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 20 - 10:52 AM

A nice little row is developing about whether Boris misled the House when Keir Starmer asked about a document in place until March 12th. Here is the Hansard entry:


Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
I join the Prime Minister in thanking our nurses and all those on the frontline, and send my condolences to all the families of those who have died of coronavirus, including Belly Mujinga, as the Prime Minister referenced—a ticket officer who we learnt this week died from covid-19 in awful circumstances.

In his speech on Sunday, the Prime Minister said that we need to rapidly reverse the awful epidemic in our care homes, but earlier this year, and until 12 March, the Government’s own official advice was—and I am quoting from it:

“It remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home…will become infected.”

Yesterday’s Office for National Statistics figures showed that at least 40% of all deaths from covid-19 were in care homes. Does the Prime Minister accept that the Government were too slow to protect people in care homes?

The Prime Minister
No, Mr Speaker, and it was not true that the advice said that.

======

Keir Starmer then sent a letter asking for the statement to be corrected, quoting the exact document of concern.

The Downing Street lobby briefing has now rejected that letter because in his question Starmer talked about it remaining the case that people in care were unlikely to be infected (the document does not use the word “remains” at that point) and the source said the full quote made it clear that this assurance covered a period where there was no community transmission. Starmer did not include the word “therefore”, the source said.

=====

People will of course form their own conclusions, but it doesn't seem much of a defence that he left out the word 'therefore'. The section quoted in the letter is:

This guidance is intended for the current position in the UK where there is currently no transmission of Covid-19 in the community. It is therefore very unlikely that anyone receiving care in a care home or the community will become infected.

So we really need to decide what 'current' means. If it meant the instant the document was issued, then it becomes vacuous: the phrases cease to have any significance as soon as there is any transmission in the community at all, and of course there was already some at the time it was published, albeit at a low level. A more sensible interpretation is that it would continue to apply until the government withdrew it, because you could make the case it was only at that point the government considered the community transmission to be at the level it was significant.

But the government spokesman appears to be following a third path: some person decides when the transmission rate in the community is high enough, and at that point the clause not longer applies. With no warning or statement at all from anyone, suddenly sections of the advice no longer apply but you as a reader have no way of telling whether it does or not.

I hardly think the spokesman defence is going to stand the test of time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 20 - 11:06 AM

Thank you DMcG. Another prime example of the truth according to Johnson. Of course we all now what the response will be. Look! Labour antisemitism! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 May 20 - 11:28 AM

lower orders eh? sorry, your grace - i never realised you had come among us. we are honoured.....you are so great, so clever, so wise.....and i never realised. we are not worthy....but thank you, thank you.....!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 20 - 12:10 PM

The row continues!

It turns out that, when No 10 claimed Sir Keir Starmer of selectively quoting from government guidance on care homes, it was highlighting the wrong quote. The section that the quote was taken from was

During normal day-to-day activities facemasks do not provide protection from respiratory viruses, such as COVID-19 and do not need to be worn by staff in any of these settings. Facemasks are only recommended to be worn by infected individuals when advised by a healthcare worker, to reduce the risk of transmitting the infection to other people. It remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home or the community will become infected.


And Keir Starmer's quotation was exact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 20 - 12:38 PM

So.. it's started as predicted...

Teachers & Heads Union's legitimate concerns about safety in the workplace are being dismissed by Govt
as "scaremongering"...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52650259

"But in the House of Commons, Education Secretary Gavin Williamson warned against "scaremongering" over safety.

He said "the disadvantaged will suffer the most" with closed schools.

"Sometimes scaremongering, making people fear, is really unfair
and not a welcome pressure to be placed on families, children and teachers alike," he told MPs,
in questions over the announcements on opening schools."


Let's see how the right wing media and internet tory fanboys
follow up attack with this line of union bashing...

..and ffs.. since when have the tories ever had any genuine consideration for "the disadvantaged"..

..apart from only when it suits their cynical propagandising...


[btw.. BBC red button earlier attributed similar comments to Grant Shapps, but this is no longer being reported..???]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 20 - 01:03 PM

Very good article on Reuters Forgotten victims section. Couple of snippets -

It's a bit long but well worth the effort. A damning indictment of the mismanagement of the crisis in care homes done in a poignant and personal way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 20 - 01:05 PM

Sorry. Didn't paste the snippets in. Didn't really need them anyway

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 20 - 01:42 PM

I wonder if the government will take heed of the upturn in cases of Corona Virus that have been reported in Germany since they took the step to lessen the lockdown.

Virus-New Cases

Given that the UK already has a atrocious track record (look at the figures) with dealing with this virus it is to be hoped they take on board the very serious dangers of lifting restrictions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 May 20 - 01:52 PM

It would seem that Johnson is going to have his work cut out when dealing with the new leader of the Labour Party. The following article is very enlightening.

Starmer

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 13 May 20 - 04:52 PM

Posted this on another thread but it might make more sense here.

ON YOUR BIKE
(AGAIN)

The Norman Tebbit special
was still in the Bike Shed,
so I went back to work in England
just like Boris said.

I pedalled fast and furious
down roads all marked South,
maintaining social distancing
hardly opening my mouth.

I reached the Sawmill in Manchester
but never got past the door.
They said that I'd been sacked
over forty years before.

My mood darkened further,
I found my tyres were flat.
The bosses shouted, "Stay Alert,
you stupid Scottish twat."

SHUG HANLAN

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 20 - 01:37 AM

I almost weakened enough to feel sorry for Johnson when he was being surgically dissected by Sir Keir Starmer at PMQs yesterday. John Crace, however, is clearly made of sterner stuff than soft, pink, fluffy me, and absolutely nails it in his Guardian piece today...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 20 - 02:26 AM

Is there a tune Shug ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 20 - 04:27 AM

Excellent piece, BWM. There is a bit at the end that highlights what I have been saying for months. Boris is not to be trusted.

in a time of crisis you rather hope the country would have a leader in whom you could believe. Someone you could trust to make at least some of the right decisions. But we have Boris. Incompetent, unprepared, selfish, lazy, amoral, and just not that bright

American friends. Feel free to substitute Boris with Donald. It still works.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 20 - 04:52 AM

Sadly, Dave, the Working-Class-Tory-Neophytes aren’t very good at understanding anything more deep and meaningful the than three-word slogan, so they’ll continue supporting the court jester.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 20 - 05:24 AM

And while the virus is under way, Brexit arrangements continue. From the Guardian:


In a letter to the executive office in Stormont the government confirmed there would be border control posts in three ports, Belfast, Warrenpoint and Larne.

Declan Kearney, one of the two junior ministers in the executive office, the regional equivalent of the Cabinet Office in London, confirmed the details at a select committee session in Belfast on Wednesday.

He told members of the local assembly that officials had briefed the executive on Monday.

“The sum total of that, and without breaching executive confidentiality … [is that the] British government has confirmed it will urgently put in place detailed plans with the executive, which does include the physical posts at ports of entry,” said Kearney.


Yet another thing Boris flatly denied would happen, even though he has agreed it with the EU. As if the relationships between Whitehall and Northern Ireland were not strained enough.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 May 20 - 06:05 AM

Let us count the ways...

More or Less broadcast yesterday on BBC Radio 4

R is one of the most important numbers of the pandemic. But how is it estimated? And is Vitamin D an under-appreciated weapon in the fight against Covid-19?

More or Less

++

I did ask earlier n this thread if any UK members had seen any facemasks for sale in any shops? I have not noticed any down here.

Our W H Smith has been closed since the lockdown and no signs of reopening yet. They have had a note on the door saying that the next two nearest branches in Folkestone and Canterbury are open.

++

Has anyone seen any more recent research on contracting the virus via touch?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Thanks, Rain Dog. Interesting podcast.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:26 AM

Just read in the local paper that an Anti Lockdown Protest is planned for Folkestone at the weekend. The so called organisers the "UK Freedom Movement" seem to be planning protests at various locations around the Uk.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:28 AM

It is very easy to make a facemask from a sock - no need for sowing!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:35 AM

Just read in the local paper that an Anti Lockdown Protest is planned for Folkestone at the weekend. The so called organisers the "UK Freedom Movement" seem to be planning protests at various locations around the Uk.

Sounds the same bunch that are behind that Southampton poster I shared.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:39 AM

I did find myself amused at my own stupidity (not rare, I am afraid) by a statement at the bottom of that poster "Bring transparents and music". It seemed far too LGBT friendly for the rest of the poster to be talking about bringing trans parents.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:42 AM

I onlly know that someone has pinched WILLIE CLANCY'S FACE-MASK
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 May 20 - 07:43 AM

Thanks for that link Bonzo. I am not using a mask at the moment but was just planning ahead for as and when public transport gets a bit easier.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 20 - 08:53 AM

R is for...

"I R OK, F U !!!"



That's a free Tee Shirt slogan for any selfish young fukwits
who believe they are immune,
and don't give a shit if they spread death everywhere
Boris has granted them liberty to travel and mingle...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 20 - 10:03 AM

Same old same old..

Malicious tory liars are at it again...


Minister Nadine Dorries accused of spreading 'fake news' about Labour leader


"Ms Dorries shared a video suggesting Sir Keir
had been reluctant to prosecute grooming gangs when he was director of public prosecutions."

hmmm.. that looks familiar, like something 'hinted at' here yesterday...???

Just goes to show how the right 'organize' the spreading lies on the internet...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 May 20 - 12:50 PM

Kier Starmer is a good egg. I enjoyed his disection of Johnson during yesterday's PMQ!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 May 20 - 01:55 PM

"A spokesman for Movianto[a private company tasked with managing PPE] said the military deployment was “not because of any shortcomings in Movianto’s performance”, insisting the company had “executed the agreed plan” to mobilise the stockpile without any delay and in accordance with its contractual obligations."

Ah, the outsourcer's #1 excuse. "We did exactly what you asked us to do. If you didn't ask us to do what was needed, that's not our problem."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:23 PM

I am normally one of the first to castigate the present government for their inaction over Corona virus and frankly their appalling record but on this occasion all the blame surely cannot be laid at their door.

I read today that almost 150,000 people have been infected in the last two weeks alone.

This is despite government measures to limit social interaction. The population at large must bear some of the responsibility for this by ignoring the guidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:27 PM

Since so many of them voted tory, they're no longer considered "stupid"...

.. apparently...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 20 - 04:39 PM

I agree that those not keeping to the guidelines should bear some responsibility but we need to allow for the confusion that the government has caused in its mixed messages and leaks to the press over the last couple of weeks. What people need are easily understood rules and strong leadership. Not bluster, waffle and populist catch phrases.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 May 20 - 05:10 PM

....and I’m with DtG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 20 - 06:29 PM

Go to blazes catch Phrases

It means death to
lose your breath

If sick you can tell
Like Boris you'll
look like hell

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 20 - 02:29 AM

It's no accident Britain and America are the world's biggest coronavirus losers

Full of stuff like

When the business of government becomes limited to populist set pieces, its ranks are purged of doers and populated instead with cheerleaders.


If you are a Tory cheerleader, don't read it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 20 - 02:54 AM

I don't know about anyone else, but I am getting a lot of facebook posts from Brexit supporters saying we need to be supporting British farmers, repatriating businesses to the UK, we need to be self-sufficient in PPE production and the like.

Fair enough: you can make a case for that. It is about ensuring local industry is viable, even if the same goods are available cheaper from outside. It is a world of state subsidy, and import tariffs.

But it is not a world of free trade: it is a protectionist one.

Which is not entirely compatible what they were arguing before, I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 20 - 04:10 AM

I linked to that piece on 12/5/20 Dave. No response from the Tory-Fanboi or his acolytes on here. Why am I not surprised? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 20 - 04:21 AM

Quite so, DtG. I’ve had one or two debates with Brexiteers In the real world about the apparent conflict between their two stated aims of ‘trading unhindered with anyone we choose’ and ‘putting our own industries and commercial enterprises first’. I’ve yet to get any of them to agree there’s a conflict, or that they’re guilty of trying to have their cake and eat it.

They seem perfectly content that, as they see it, Johnson ‘Got Brexit Done’! He didn’t, of course, but he and his cronies are certainly using the Covid-19 pandemic shenanigans as cover for their efforts to reach 31/12/20 with no EU Trade Agreement - the ‘hard brexit’ they’ve wanted and aimed for all along - and give them a convenient excuse that they were ‘too busy dealing with the pandemic’ to finalise negotiations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 May 20 - 04:28 AM

Let us count the ways in which they count the ways

Inside Science broadcast yesterday on BBC Radio 4

Inside Science

Had an interesting bit on the 'R Number' amongst other things. If you follow the link it will give you more information about the programme.

The Today programme on BBC Radio 4 this morning also had a number of items related to the 'R Number' and modelling.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 15 May 20 - 05:56 AM

Interesting, but I did get a bit cross with the scientist saying the most effective thing in bringing R down had been the lockdown. Obviously! That is as near a tautology as you get in science.   Since R is heavily dependent on the number of contacts, bringing the number of contacts down and reducing R should surprise no-one, and certainly not a scientist working in the field.

But that did me thinking that apart from the clapping, almost every thing the government has done on this has been at the level of the individual. You wash your hands, you keep social distance, and so on. The only really social thing I can think of was the volunteer scheme that some 750,000 signed up for where people were specifically trying to help others. But no-one I know who signed up has been asked to do anything yet.

Since there are so many references to the war, I checked and there were 1.4 million ARP wardens, when the population was around 48 million. It is in the order of one per street, I would guess.   So we have less volunteers, but not dramatically less. It should be possible to harness these into a 'Stay Alert' system, reporting any outbreaks in your street to a rapid-response testing unit, who can visit the person and get the tests completed in say 24 hours.   

That seems to me the sort of system you need in place before easing lockdown.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 20 - 08:46 AM

The usual strategy of lieing to citizens was the worst thing to do in a pandemic and that is why the US and UK will suffer from four to ten times more from the virus compared to other countries.

Pandemic information has even been classified secret by Trump.

This was controllable epidemic...until politicians took comtrol.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 20 - 10:33 AM

Is there sufficient evidence for any Govt ministers to be tried for criminal negligence
and manslaughter...??/

Is that evidence being buried and shredded...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 20 - 11:08 AM

Scientists and epidemiologists are being fired by Trump over here but they are still testifying. I hope they do not get shredded too.

The old saying is that you can not sue city hall.
Yes and no. Legal minds agree that manslaughter and murder is a bridge too far.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 May 20 - 11:26 AM

There is a joke about European corona virus whistle-blower scientists
being found dead,
after committing suicide with 2 gunshots to the back of their heads..


Though it's an old joke, that could just as easily be more internationally inclusive..

Chinese, Russian, USA, etc, whistle blowers..
[where it is more likely to actually happen..]...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 May 20 - 11:45 AM

Lying is, I think, what Donuel was trying to say!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 20 - 12:17 PM

Sorry, BWM. I didn't see that. You know what they say. Great minds think alike. Not sure what happened in my case :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 May 20 - 02:31 PM

LOL! I was mostly surprised that YKW hasn’t been jumping around like a frog in a blender, giving us the benefit of his vast store of knowledge on...everything (apparently)!

Oh well, be thankful for small mercies, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 03:52 AM

"There is a joke about European corona virus whistle-blower scientists"
For those who might have missed it on the joke thread
A corona virus nurse passing one of the beds hears a weak voice call out "Are my testicles black?"
She goes over and says, "Well it's not really my job, but if it makes you feel any better I'll take a look"
She polls back the sheets, examines him carefully, lift's them up and looks underneath and says, "No they're fine"
He grins at her and says, "That was lovely, but I think you misheard me - I asked, "are my test results back"?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 20 - 05:47 AM

In Denmark it has been proved that opening schools has upped the infection rate yet our Secretary of State for education has blasted teaching unions for being concerned over the safety of their members. Showing Tory care policies up for what they are. Of course we know what the answer is. Look! Labour antisemitism!

I hope all those who still support the fly by night Tory lying populist with his pithy slogans and 'witty' remarks are ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 06:07 AM

As usual, the Daily Mail adds it’s own twisted spin to the story.

‘Militant Unions’? WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 20 - 06:23 AM

Let our teachers be heroes, eh?

All together now: "Soldiers who want to be heroes/Number practically zero.."

I was reminded of this, and no doubt the Daily Mail will be as enthusiastic as they were in WW1:

In August 1914, Admiral Charles Penrose Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather. He deputized thirty women in Folkestone to give out white feathers to any men not in uniform. The concept was based on the old cock-fighting lore that a cockerel with a white feather in its tail is a coward.
...

The Daily Mail enthusiastically reported the activities of the Order of the White Feather, hoping the gesture "would shame every young slacker" into enlisting. "The generally female white feather distributors achieved much notoriety by frequently misjudging their targets, stories of men on leave, wounded, or in reserved occupations being handed down these odious symbols abound."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 06:34 AM

An extract from a horrifying piece from The Telegraph, written by their Business Editor, Ambrose Ellis Pritchard...

A Covid cardiologist at a top London hospital – friendly to Boris – has been so incensed by the daily charade of bogus omniscience that he vented his spleen in an email to me on Sunday night. It is a poignant indictment, so I pass along a few snippets.

Basically, every mistake that could have been made, was made. He likened the care home policy to the Siege of Caffa in 1346, that grim chapter of the Black Death when a Mongol army catapulted plague-ridden bodies over the walls.

“Our policy was to let the virus rip and then ‘cocoon the elderly’,” he wrote. “You don’t know whether to laugh or cry when you contrast that with what we actually did. We discharged known, suspected, and unknown cases into care homes which were unprepared, with no formal warning that the patients were infected, no testing available, and no PPE to prevent transmission. We actively seeded this into the very population that was most vulnerable.

“We let these people die without palliation. The official policy was not to visit care homes – and they didn’t (and still don’t). So, after infecting them with a disease that causes an unpleasant ending, we denied our elders access to a doctor – denied GP visits – and denied admission to hospital. Simple things like fluids, withheld. Effective palliation like syringe drivers, withheld.”

The public has yet to realise that the great quest for ventilators was worse than a red herring. The overuse of ventilators was itself killing people at a terrifying ratio and behind that lies another institutional failure.

“When the inquiry comes, it will show that many people died for lack of oxygen supply in hospitals, and this led to early intubation,” writes the doctor. “Boris survived because they gave him oxygen. High flow oxygen wasn’t available as a treatment option for all patients.”

I recently suggested that the first few weeks of government inaction - the so-called ‘herd-immunity’, ‘take it on the chin’ period - could be evidence of a deliberate ‘cull’ of the elderly in order to relieve pressure on care-homes and the state pension, for which I was criticised by the Tory-Fanboi types here. Reading the article further convinces me that my suspicions may Indeed have some substance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 06:59 AM

Teachers are the time-honoured Tory political football. In the good old Thatcher days there was routinely an annual hyped-up educational "scandal" in the tabloids a few weeks before the next teachers' pay round was to be settled. The government have drawn battle lines now. There was that disgraceful Mail front page. There was the boss of an academy consortium shooting his mouth off about how "kids" are being "damaged" and telling us that teacher's protests are "rather middle class." He knows as much about education as I know about the bowel habits of unicorns. We had the incredibly stupid Gavin Williamson (God knows how else to describe him) telling teaching unions to "do their duty." Today we have the Tory-appointed Children's Commissioner being wheeled out and propped up to brainlessly push the June 1 "policy." We hear about how children "don't catch it a lot," "only get a mild dose," "don't spread it much," all with frighteningly-inadequate evidence. We know that little "kids" won't social-distance. We can afford to sacrifice a few teachers after all. You can always get a few more of them from somewhere. Dunno about the cleaners and the canteen staff...

What a bloody shambles. Stand your ground, teachers. Schools are not there to babysit so that parents can go to work, which is blatantly what this policy is all about. Go back when it's at least a lot safer than now. That will not be before September.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:04 AM

"Of course we know what the answer is. Look! Labour antisemitism!"

We'll be getting a lot less of that particular brand of inanity I suspect, at least for a while...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:15 AM

Ah, back to Teachers, those "essential workers" with whom this particular thread began back in April. My own initial response to punkfolkrocker seems to have pulled off the remarkable feat of being both inaccurate but absolutely correct. At least I haven't so internalised current political rhetoric that I can't see the difference between that characterisation and "wrong but absolutely justified".
With regard to what is being consistently referred to as "the catastrophe in our Care Homes", I wonder how many people, during the early mentions of this Coronavirus Pandemic, and of those most vulnerable, thought like me that there was very likely to be a very great number of deaths among elderly people in these environments. Some recognised - with cynicism, "black humour"/"gallows humour", resigned bitterness or bitter resignation - that, well, at least that will solve some of those oft-rehearsed problems caused by "the demographic time-bomb", the fact that "due to improvements in medical science, more of our old folk are living longer" ( a fact always described as "welcome", though the corollary that a growing proportion of the population was no longer composed of "net Producers" of resources but of "net Consumers" was never far behind). Now, I can't believe that I, or any of those whom I heard speaking of "aye, getting rid of the old folk"/"wiping out anyone not needed by the Economy"/"a Cull of the Elderly"(that from a wireless station), could be described as particularly unfeeling, inhuman, or given to outlandish and disturbing speculation. That being granted, does anyone seriously believe that those who decided what official policy was to be, and how it would be presented, complete with slogans and "optics"/"visuals", did not include every facet of NHS facilities, staff, stores, etc. in their thinking, their planning, their "modelling", their accursed "Wargaming the various Scenarios"? Those who understood immediately the implications of "Herd Immunity" won't have been surprised at what has been allowed happen, though the discharge policy adversely criticised by the Cardiologist quoted above was an unexpected "accelerant". Wasn't it Talleyrand who said that a Diplomat should recognise what is inevitable, and ensure that it happens? As Politicians, I'll grant they're as wicked, but no hauf sae clever.
Remember thon young lassie working as some kinda Advisor who had to apologise for writing in a Memo that "9-11" (i.e. Twin Towers) was "a good day to bury bad news"? Why apologise for telling the Truth? Because it's unpalatable? Or - in other circumstances - because it would reveal unequivocally the contempt with which we, the Populace, the Polloi, the Common People (or Folk), the "Ordinary Human Beings", the "many-headed Multitude", the Mob, aye, even the "Cannon Fodder", "essential workers" and all, are regarded by The Great and Good.
Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:23 AM

People are beginning to talk about the Care Homes issue in terms of a future enquiry - it seems to have reached horrific proportions in the UK - from how the patents have been treated to the lack of protective equipment for the residents and staff
It will be interesting to see if Cummings is one of the accused because of his 'survival of the fittest' policies
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:59 AM

Even with such an Enquiry, its "terms of reference" will be carefully decided by The Powers That Be. That into the tower-block fire in London (Grenfell Tower), as far as I remember, did not consider the matter of appropriate exterior cladding. Consistently, too, there's a long, long delay before "findings are published". Remember Flood, Moriarty and Mahon, and the Legal Teams milking the State.
The American Economist JK Galbraith noted, about sixty years ago, that the advantages of continuing specialisation and delegation, numerous sub-groups &c., namely, the ability for societies to achieve ever higher Standards of Living and quality of medical knowledge & expertise, were accompanied by the fact that no-one could ever be held fully accountable for anything....

Oh, and we'll also hear how "lessons will have to be learnt" so that "this can never happen again". And keep cheering for "our NHS". Because "we're all in this together".
But some animals are more together than others.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:12 AM

Excellent meat box delivered by Morrison's this afternoon!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:48 AM

Backwoodsman you are in possesion of some of the formost info/secrets of the pandemic. Good on you mate.
May your luck and choices be the best.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:03 AM

Notable that the BMA supports the teachers' stance*. Bunch of people there with pretty good knowledge of matters medical, I should think, unlike the bosses of academy trusts and Children's Commissioners and other Tory stooges... And I see we have Williamson doing the press conference today. If you have buttocks, prepare to clench them now (with apologies to the Bard...)

*Just to show that I do know where that apostrophe should have gone in me earlier post...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:11 AM

I saw the ad for those meatboxes, Bonzo. The photos made the meat look insipid. I like to know about welfare standards when I buy meat (little red tractors don't do it for me), and Morrisons aren't usually very forthcoming about that. Good luck with it. I buy some meat online from Donald Russell. Only ever buy what's on special and spend forty quid min to get free delivery. It comes frozen and, if you're really lucky, you get little packets of dry ice to play with. Damn good quality. Sorry, Barb'ry, totally off-topic but the lad had to be told!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:18 AM

”Backwoodsman you are in possesion of some of the formost info/secrets of the pandemic. Good on you mate.
May your luck and choices be the best.“

I am in possession of no such thing(s). Stop making up nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:28 AM

meat boxes for the elderly...???


... coffins...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:44 AM

I'm not one to brag.. but check my post history..

I was way ahead of the herd in my predictions
of a tory exploitation of the pandemic, to cull the costly old and weak..

..and then demonising teachers' unions

[first they came for the teachers...]..


..btw.. my wife's union messaged yesterday for members to prepare
for the right wing media attack this weekend...
One of her friends, a deputy head is in despair of the anticipated backlash,
and orchestrated strategy to turn the public against them...

Next we can expect the divide and rule nastiness
of pitting city and big town dwellers against seaside and country folk...

It's good pick me up for the petrol industry, and seeding more death in the in provincial regions
which have so far failed to cull enough expensive useless oldies and invalids...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:12 PM

Fully in agreement (here specifically, and generally). In addition to these likely developments, naturally the recent insistence on people using judgment, discretion, "common sense" and so on when deciding on their actions during this "relaxation of Lockdown" will allow a rapid escalation in cases to be blamed, in part, on "the actions of an irresponsible few". Come to think of it, that phrase would actually be accurate, though you would want to be precise in identifying who these are.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:16 PM

Mossers meat is usually pretty ethical, Steve. Either from their own farms or sourced locally. Can't say if the meat boxes are the same though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:47 PM

In relation to earlier posts from me:

A “mass gathering” held on Saturday in Southampton saw around a dozen protesters gather on the city’s common, holding placards saying “stop the lies”, “say no to tyranny” and “fight 4 freedom”.

====

There seemed some confusion whether this protest was supposed to happen today or tomorrow, so we will have to see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 20 - 01:01 PM

My wife just mentioned internet reports of an anti lockdown protest in Wales..

A mass protest of 3 people...

I wonder if they wore masks...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:02 PM

You email was nonsense backwoodsman? It sounded real to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:45 PM

No Don, your suggestion that I am ‘in possession of some of the foremost info/secrets of the pandemic’ is nonsense. I have no ‘info’ or ‘secrets’ other than those which are available to any other member of the general public through the usual media channels.

What I do have are my own thoughts, tweaked, tuned, and honed on the basis of what I see, hear, and read in the media, and the ability, acquired during my own seventy-plus years of experience, to detect bullshit.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 03:05 PM

Second paragraph above should read...

What I do have are my own thoughts, tweaked, tuned, and honed on the basis of what I see, hear, and read in the media and by the opinions of others whose views I trust and respect, and the ability, acquired during my own seventy-plus years of experience, to detect bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 04:34 PM

I'll tek tha word fer it, Dave. As long as they don't leave the ethical gristle in the bangers... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 20 - 05:42 PM

My small screen cropped your post so I read, "A Covid cardiologist at a top London hospital – friendly to Boris – has been so incensed by the daily charade of bogus omniscience that he vented his spleen in an email to me on Sunday night. It is a poignant indictment, so I pass along a few snippets..."

I would hope more folks are subject to interesting emails.
Its my fault for skimming in a rush and thinking it was your email.
Good catch anyway Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:02 AM

Following the vile, shameful front-page of the Daily Mail recently, in which teachers and their union were used as cannon-fodder in the current ‘blame-shifting’ exercise being carried out by the Johnson Gang and their tame-tabloid propaganda-mouthpieces, I thought this piece, a stark reminder of the divide-and-rule methodology of this dreadful so-called ‘government‘, was well worth a read.

I have no way of verifying its source, it claims to be written by a teacher, and I have no reason to doubt that it was. Even if it wasn’t, it has the ring of truth.

I’m aware that long C&Ps are discouraged here, but this piece is from a FB page, and I’m very loath to link to FB pieces. Hence the C&P.

”A teacher asked us to share this post debunking the lies currently being made about her profession:

"Hi I’m a secondary teacher.
Please can you publish this I need to put a few things straight.
Bear with me.
I’m a teacher.
I’m so upset and angry about the lies spread by the misinformed about me and my profession. They include :
1) We are lazy
2) We don’t want to go back to work
3) We should be ‘heroic’ like nurses and supermarket workers
4) We are ignoring disadvantaged students
5) Teachers’ Unions are divisive , driving a wedge between the government and teachers
My response:

1) We are lazy

Teachers are still working. My school is still OPEN. I am working as many hours as before. I’m just working differently. I am planning, marking, collating work, replanning lessons to be taught remotely, attending Zoom meetings, responding to and sending emails, keeping a constant dialogue with my students, working out new ways of giving feedback and going into school on a rota to work with children of key workers and those who are disadvantaged. Oh, and as a mum too, I’m trying to home school at the same time. We are not lazy.

2) We don’t want to go back to work.

We are professionals. We went into this job to shape young minds and allow all those in our care to thrive and succeed. That’s one of the most rewarding things about this job. Why would we not want to continue? I have exam groups who are missing GCSE content that needs to be taught face to face. I need to see kids in front of me, listening and engaging. Every day that they are not in school means that it is more difficult to catch up. So it will mean even more work, revision sessions etc... when we finally go back. Why would we want to heap that upon ourselves? We want to go back to work.

3)We are NOT heroes.

We know that. But we never thought we were. To compare us to nurses is entirely unfair and it creates a false equivalence. Nurses work with the sick. Apart from seeing to the odd cold, nose bleed or cut in school, we do not perform the same tasks as health care professionals. And we shouldn’t be seen as such. Nurses are brilliant and have full training in all areas (including infection and how to deal with it ) and are (usually) much better equipped with PPE. Furthermore, using emotive, military terms like ‘heroes’ is entirely unfair. It furthers the idea of a ‘battle’ against the disease, and creates connotations of sacrifices to be made, and when lives are lost, we make death an honourable martyrdom, a price worth paying. None of us should be expected to give our lives for our work- nurses, care workers, teachers, supermarket staff and any other vital workers. It is NOT a race to the bottom. We are NOT heroes.

4) We are ignoring disadvantaged students.

This is the latest emotional blackmail being used against us. Unfortunately, disadvantaged students make up a hell of a lot of my cohort. Fortunately, we have outstanding pastoral care that ensures that some of our disadvantaged students are getting regular contact with school. They are being visited, given food parcels (oh, did I mention that teachers contribute towards them too?) , given paper copies of work if they can’t access computers. Moreover, mentors are working closely with social services to give emotional support. Ironically, the amount of disadvantaged students in my own school has increased incredibly over the last ten years. So perhaps the government should be looking at the impact of its own austerity measures in creating these disadvantages. The disparity between the wealthy and the poor has been exacerbated by the ideological violence of austerity. Now we are expected to feel guilt about the widening gap between disadvantaged students and the rest. A gap created by policies designed to marginalise the most vulnerable in our society. Policies like shutting libraries and Sure Start centres, cuts to the social care budget, mental health provision and special needs provision. It’s like the government have set a time bomb ticking and expect us to diffuse it. Without any safety equipment.
And this is no different to what has happened to our valued friends and colleagues in the NHS.
We are not ignoring disadvantaged students.

5) Teachers’ Unions are divisive , driving a wedge between the government and the profession.

Again this is an unhelpful and over-simplistic narrative in the characterisation of the relationship between the union and its members. Unions, the bad guys, deliberately standing in the way of progress and common sense. People forget - we ARE the union. It is OUR voice which reflects our beliefs and wishes. Today, both the unions and the government were accused by the Children’s Commissioner of ‘squabbling’ with one other. This is unhelpful and, quite frankly, patronising, giving the media a nice sound bite that they can use in their campaign to further discredit unions and the work that they are doing to secure our safety.

Teachers are people. Mums, dads , grandmas , grandads, aunties, uncles , cousins and friends. Their lives are precious and worth caring about. My life is precious too.

You place your child’s education in our hands.

We’ll make sure they’re sanitised."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:30 AM

Brilliant, John. As you might expect I know a lot of teachers. I'll pass that on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:59 AM

It was a gutter press headline about unions back in the 60s that sent me down the left hand path in the first place. It read "Unions bring country to a standstill" and was about a strike by train drivers. Hang on, thought I as a callow youth, there are two sides to every dispute. Why are they just blaming one side? Strange to see that they are still at it after 50+ years. This latest one is particularly cynical in its message. Shift the blame for the mismanagement of the health crisis away from the hooray Henrys that are currently in charge. I hope it is a step too far but am afraid that those who could not see through the three word populism of the last election will believe anything the right wing rags tell them :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:37 AM

Apparently a survey carried out and reported this week found out:

------
Other findings indicated that only a minority have faith in Mr Johnson’s insistence the public use its “good British common sense” over lockdown rules, with nearly nine in 10 respondents trusting in their own judgement, but only 34 per cent trusting that of their fellow Britons

-----

Is anyone surprised?   It amply demonstrates that making 'common sense' a key part of your approach is absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:38 AM

I think you’re right Dave. There was (still is?) a similar situation with the railways, where the operators were trying to enforce one-man-operations, a patently unsafe situation, on the system and the union objected on the grounds of the safety issue. All we ever heard from the Tory press and the media was that the unions were making life difficult for travellers, nothing about the intransigence of the operating companies’ managements.

They never seem to grasp the principle that it takes two to tango.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:44 AM

DMcG, there was a hilarious comment on social media about Johnson’s ‘good old British common sense’ - an image of a tabloid-press article, complete with photograph, about some knuckle-dragger who proudly announced to the nation that he claimed the record for shoving nine Creme Eggs up his arse.

If we’re relying on that kind of ‘Good old British common sense’, the only conclusion to be drawn is that we’re completely f**ked.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:07 AM

copy 'n' paste.. why not...

"Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:24 PM

Nigel - Reception are the least controllable in terms of social distancing,
[herding cats is a doddle in comparison...]
and amongst the most likely to be bringing and spreading death into classrooms..

The tory far right hate teachers,
maligning them as commie multicultralist brainwashers of British nationalist's children...

This outright prejudice is behind much of far right tory attitudes towards the teaching profession.

There will be much far right vindictive glee at the prospect of teachers & their families
falling ill and dying,
as a result of callous tory govt reopening plans...

The Mail and others will attack and slur teacher's unions trying to protect their members..

You know this to be true..."


Told ya so...
.. and it's a very personal real matter of life and death
for my wife and me...!!!


Well.. one rumour is Eton will be staying shut,
can't be risking the lives of posh kids and families [or their elite establishment teachers..]...

If this is this true.. they're keeping quiet about it..


Anyway, if tories are suddenly so concerned about 'disadvantaged children',
how about opening up Eton's wonderful facilities for them
if it's only going to be mothballed...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:34 AM

What a waste of creme eggs...though I suppose they could still be OK if he'd left the wrappers on...

A couple of other bits of right-wing lying, Dave: "The unions are holding the country to ransom"...not the non-doms, not the multinationals, not the off-shorers, not the Dysons and Bransons, all of whom can pull their money out of the country at the drop of a hat, maybe to find super-cheaper exploitable people elsewhere... And "These immigrant workers are driving wages down...", all of whom of course swarm into our country, and, once they've stolen our houses, our NHS, our benefits, our wives and our daughters, point guns at the heads of their employers shouting "Pay me less! Pay me less!"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:38 AM

And another self-appointed expert spouts about the schools' projected reopening, another head of an academy trust, therefore another amazing medical guru and top epidemiologist...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:58 AM

”What a waste of creme eggs...though I suppose they could still be OK if he'd left the wrappers on...“

If the dozy, bollock-brained bugger left them up there for more than a minute or two, I reckon they’d have melted. That would take some sorting from the usual contents of the sigmoid colon and rectum! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Well, whad’ya know - the Tory Smear Machine has gone into action against Sir Keir Starmer already...over a field he bought near his disabled mother’s home for a donkey sanctuary to use for rescued donkeys!

You couldn’t make it up could you? Oh, the Tories already have...!!

https://www.indy100.com/article/keir-starmer-field-land-donkeys-worth-criticism-popularity-9518751?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:36 AM

Well, John, in that case mebbe at least the last-two-in first-two-out creme eggs might've still been OK as they weren't up there for as long...

Just been having a Zoom natter to my bro in NZ about the way they are gradually relaxing the lockdown. Seems that most NZers highly approve of the way their government is handling things but even so there's criticism of unclear messages causing some people to stretch the rules. We could learn a lot from how other countries are doing, but Johnson would rather talk up British exceptionalism and resort to Great British Common Sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:52 AM

I suppose we will have to change Look! Labour antisemitism! To Look! Keir Starmer's donkeys!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:54 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:08 AM

just a reminder, steve. johnson isn't talking about 'british exceptionalism' - he means english exceptionalism......and is referring to rumpUK. somehow this makes me feel a wee bit hopeful...that and the fact that my daughter just got a hospital job in glasgow.and i finished my jigsaw ....i never realised that klimt's the kiss had such big sections of indistinguishable gently sparkling brown. jags are still relegated though

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:46 AM

Happy to be corrected!

I note that Eton is shut until September. Here's a tweet from a couple of days ago that I've just seen:

State schools should reopen when
1. Private schools, like Eton, reopen
2. MPs are back crowded together on the benches at Westminster
3. Lords and Ladies are back crowded together in the House of Lords

WHAT IS COUNTER-ARGUMENT?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:02 AM

Here is a somewhat dense technical paper on excess deaths in England. (Not the UK, notice!)

It is not light reading, so I will just pull out a few sentences. If people want to discuss these in the context of the entire paper, I can do so.


While UK deaths attributed to Covid are the highest in Europe, the excess death data are likely to be more robust for the reasons given. England’s outcomes are the worst of the 24 countries or states for which EuroMOMO reports Z-scores. It is followed by Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and France. The total measure for all age groups up to the week ending 26 April 2020 (called week 17 by EuroMOMO), reveals that at the peak in week 15, England’s Z-score was 39.7 and in week 16 it was 36.9. These Z-scores correspond approximately to ONS data on the week ending April 17, of 21,182 deaths in England, compared to the ‘normal’ number of 9787 (based on the average of the previous 5
years). Excess deaths thus, were 11,395, or more than twice the expected number
...
The peak rate of excess deaths in England for the most vulnerable age group, the over-65s is also the
highest for the 24 countries or regions compared


...

More disturbing is the comparative story for the 15-64 age group, where England’s relative record in excess mortality in the Covid-19 era is particularly poor. At its peak (i.e. in the week with the highest excess mortality) , it is 2.7 times worse than the weekly peak in next worst country, Spain, almost 4 times worse than France and Belgium, and almost 5 times worse than Italy’s peak weekly excess deaths in the age group

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:40 AM

So far today we've had a big academies trust bloke and now Gove swinging it against the teachers. This is determinedly political, and determinedly has nothing to do with the educational wellbeing of children. Be strong, teachers! ...Though it's too late to organise legal industrial action...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:55 AM

Q: WHAT IS COUNTER-ARGUMENT?

A: When somebody explains reasons for holding the opposing view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:09 AM

That was part of the tweet. The author was challenging for the counter-argument to his three points, or, quite likely, he was being rhetorical..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:10 AM

And yes,Nigel, a "the" would have helped, but let's not dwell.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:23 AM

Then, in the particular argument above, posted 17th May, 07.46, what might a Counter Argument be?
That is, what reasons might someone advance for disagreeing with what seems to me an eminently reasonable position. It's even proposing that all those "disadvantaged children" the compassionate Conservatives are so concerned about should altruistically share the enforced vacation of the rather more privileged young gentlemen of Eton. We are, after all, all in this together.
With regard to what reasons someone might have for insisting that the masses obediently send their mini-plebeians, that's a different thing again. I only asked what reasons might someone plausibly advance in opposition to the particular argument.
Over.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:25 AM

(Obviously the last was being composed whilst other messages were also being sent in response). ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:36 AM

One possible reason for the different treatment is that Eton starts at age 13, and the Government guidance on return to school is currently advising that nurseries, early years, and primary (reception & years 1 & 6) should be returning to school.
So any comparison between this guidance & Eton is misguided.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:46 AM

But Nigel surely an altruistic gesture from Eton college to allow their premises, which I presume are more than adequate, to be used would allow the number of pupils going back to school to be spread out a bit more and consequently lessen the chances of contamination.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:46 AM

Nigel, the government guidance wants exam-age children in years 10 and 12 to have FACE-TO-FACE contact with their teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:52 AM

Eton et al. don't do altruistic. They do "good" for the public sector in order to bolster their image, to try to make us forget their exclusivity and to stave off occasional expressed threats to their charitable status (a status which in my view is a perennial outrage). If there's little or nothing in it for them they won't do it, unless coerced.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:54 AM

. . . But without a return to full-time education at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 11:13 AM

I appreciate the information about Eton and the age of its intake (10.36 am).
Would I be alone in wondering whether any of the fee-paying schools (yes, I know they prefer the term "independent")* which take children of the relevant ages has any proposals to open at the same time as State Schools? I believe the term for these places is "Prep School".
Would I be alone in appreciating another example of how an answer can be absolutely accurate, and yet fail - carelessly or calculatedly - to address the obvious issue?



* No-one wants to argue against something like "independence", do they? Unless they can continue with a formula like, "Scotland has benefited from 300 years of Union...")

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 11:48 AM

They are not independent as they rely on the state letting them off paying an awful lot of tax. It's called "charitable status." In order to maintain this, they have to be seen doing some "good" for the state sector. I found at least one prep school that is planning to open on June 1. It's a bit hard to find out unless you go on each school's website, and even then you won't necessarily find the info you want. The HMC website doesn't seem to be giving schools guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:00 PM

And it gets worse...despite The Johnson Gang’s oft-repeated promise that any trade agreement with the US would include the proviso that our own food standards must be upheld...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-us-trade-deal-food_uk_5ebc1544c5b6270384a98e17?guccounter=1

You really cannot believe a single word those treacherous, lying arseholes utter, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:05 PM

tory agenda is to wipe out unions and submit worker's pay and conditions
to the independent discretion / mercy of individual employers..

The specific longer term target for Education,
is to replace the current generation of teachers
with right wing recruits to the teaching profession...

This pandemic is an excellent opportunist gift for the tories
to exploit,
in achieving these aims..

By any unfair or foul means they will sink to...


This is not bonkers conspiracy theory..

The Govt are openly shamelessly flaunting this provocation in our faces...


This has been all so obvious all along...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:54 PM

The Mail

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:01 PM

Much as it pains me to defend the Daily Fail, I strongly suspect that’s a fake, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:05 PM

.. what.. me spreading fake news...!!!???

..outrageous...


|It's in the mail on the internet, so it must be true...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:29 PM

The French politician Jean-Marie Herault de Sechelles (French Rev.) stated that in times of peril the State can take measures which would not be tolerated in peacetime.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:33 PM

...someone needs to remind Winston.. ermmm.. sorry.. boris, that this is peacetime...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:46 PM

”what.. me spreading fake news...!!!???
..outrageous...
|It's in the mail on the internet, so it must be true...“

I tried to find it on the Mail’s internet site, and it didn’t show up. I’m not by any means suggesting you’re spreading fake news - just trying to verify it (as I always try to) and struggling...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:07 PM

Well, there's always a "class war" going on, but what a pity that he of "formidable intelligence"* didn't have the chance to strut on the stage in a role more suited to his abilities. Something like defending the Great British Fish Supper from having foreign food standards imposed on it.
I sent a contribution to the Mail as suggested, and once I receive a white feather I'll stick it somewhere appropriate and whistle "Yankee Doodle". ABCD.

* That was the formula usually recited by Tory spokespeople some years back.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:16 PM

What teachers are for: to enthuse children to learn, to nurture and develop that enthusiasm and to provide the wherewithal so to do.

What teachers are not for: to keep children off the street, to keep them away from abusive households, to keep them away from parents who go to work, to babysit.*

Cheers

Steve (ex-teacher, husband of teacher, sister of headteacher and ex-president of NAHT, brother of deputy head teacher, brother-in-law of teacher, friend of many teachers).

*If I'm wrong about this, there wouldn't be any school holidays, would there?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:20 PM

I'm her brother, not her sister. I know we live in flexible times but I have yet to go down that avenue!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:38 AM

”Steve (ex-teacher, husband of teacher, sister of headteacher and ex-president of NAHT, brother of deputy head teacher, brother-in-law of teacher, friend of many teachers). “

Jeez, Steve, what on Earth do you guys talk about? I’ll bet there are some riveting conversations when you all get together - “School, school, school, school, school, school....” ad nauseam! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:48 AM

It's a bit like that at teacher training college and for your first two or three years, but after that we tend to avoid all non-essential school talk like the plague!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:27 AM

Me and the wife used to have a really varied social life,
pubs and live music most evenings..

Until about 15 years ago when the school issued teachers with laptops,
expecting them to do increasingly more work at home..
for [in tory austerity real terms..] less and less pay.

Soon after the laptop, she got her first mobile phone,
then work-related texts and phone calls became the norm every evening,
often up until 10 or 11;
depending on how many of her co-teachers and staff were suffering work issues & stress,
and needing to offload out of school on my over-sympathetic mrs..

Healthy work life balance...???
anyone remember.. did that used to be a thing way back in the 20th century...????????

So from my point of view, I am married to an entire bloody school, not just my wife..

It's a full time lifestyle for me..

..and I get the bonus of her taking out all of that accumulating stress on on me,
and every illness she brings back from school...

So any tories wanting to pick an ideological fight with teachers,
will have to deal with me as well..
.. and I'm not such a sympathetic listener...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:34 AM

You’re very unusual then! I have a number of friends who are teachers and ex-teachers, and their sole topic of conversation is school. The non-teacher husband of one of them (and a teacher with a non-teacher husband is a rarity in itself!) refuses to go to any social function where other teachers will be in attendance, because they talk about nothing but school all night and he’s left twiddling his thumbs!

I remember sitting in the garden of the National Trust Café at Corfe Castle a few years ago, drinking coffee and eating scones (very nice indeed!) and we knew the occupations of everyone else in the garden - they were all talking, very loudly, about their dreadful schools and idiot head-teachers! ;-)

It would be a very cold day in hell before I’d marry another accountant! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:38 AM

pfr, my wife has had a company phone and laptop for years. She uses them for work only! and when she gets home around 6:30pm, they are switched off.

Saves a lot of hassle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:51 AM

BTW, my post of 03:34 AM was for Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 06:40 AM

We're both well out of the profession now but we still both know enough teachers to see what pfr is saying. A healthy work-life balance has disappeared. You get to school extremely early, you leave late and your evening has gone as you still have hours of work to do. You spend most of the school "holidays" working your socks off, marking work, preparing schemes and drawing up detailed lesson plans, including the preparation of materials. Marking children's work now has to be done in ridiculous detail. All this drains away much of the energy that teachers should be reserving for putting in a lively and enthusiastic classroom "performance." It started to go seriously downhill in the mid-80s when Thatcher took revenge on teachers for taking (very limited) industrial action. There commenced a pointless and arbitrary tick-box method of "assessing" pupils' progress which was and, to an extent still is, even in its modern manifestation, open to cheating and corruption in order to get your school up the league table. There was the imposition of a content-stuffed anti-educational "national curriculum" (fit for the proles but not for the privileged in taxpayer-subsidised private schools and which left no room for imagination or interesting diversions, the sort of thing we remember our best teachers for), a five-day theft of holidays ostensibly for in-service training that I never saw utilised effectively, the removal of professional choices, replaced by the notorious 1265 hours' "directed time", and an Ofsted regime (judgemental only, never supportive) that was initially populated by significant numbers of failed teachers who had had two to three days' training (the first Ofsted inspector I had to endure, a portly, elderly man, fell asleep at the back of my lab after he'd had a night on the beer in a Bude Hotel that I know well...)

Of course, this is is a general phenomenon, not by a long chalk unique to teaching. Thatcher prepared the way for this exploitation in the workplace by emasculating trade unions (later connived in by New Labour, which proved that they weren't actually "Labour" at all). The teaching unions, never especially strong, as getting teachers to all act together is about as easy as herding cats, were too weak to put up any sort of effective opposition to these mostly deleterious changes. The upshot is that teaching is an impossibly difficult and often unrewarding job that probably (subjective view only, the only one possible) has not yielded higher "standards." If teachers are sitting around in what little spare time they have talking about teaching, it's hardly surprising, though you wonder why they aren't asleep instead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 07:28 AM

Bloody hell Steve, I was only having a bit of fun! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 May 20 - 09:40 AM

have i missed some news about a regular poster on threads like this? or have regular government supporters been finally shamed and embarrassed into silence?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 10:19 AM

The news is bush telegraph only, Pete. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. But most of all, read no evil. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 10:55 AM

"been finally shamed and embarrassed into silence?"
Yup - but not by the Government - and like Arnie he'll "be back"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 20 - 12:39 PM

"pfr, my wife has had a company phone and laptop for years. She uses them for work only! and when she gets home around 6:30pm, they are switched off."

That's the problem.. she can only switch the laptop off after finishing obligatory extra after school hours work at home...

We usually can't have our evening meal until at least 8.30..

Her colleagues are in the same desperate situation,
so that's why the late evening stressed-out work related phone calls begin
after they all actually finish work for the night...

But then the laptop usually needs to be switched back on again
just before bedtime,
as a result of problems inflicted from the phone calls...

It's since Blair that teacher's workload has increased beyond reasonable demands,
whilst the austerity value of their salary has decreased to unlivable levels..

That's why I've enough of my own real justified resentments about the state of the education system,
to tolerate any glib provocative tory attacks on 'workshy' teacher's and their 'militant unpatriotic' unions...


BWM - Btw.. it'd take a mightier man than me or you,
to demand my mrs ever turns her phone off...!!!

The only concession I won, was last year she agreed to stop taking it to bed at night...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:04 PM

"It's since Blair that teacher's workload has increased beyond reasonable demands"

You are absolutely not wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:38 AM

"he DIT said the new regime would get rid of some of the complexities of the EU system, would involve rounding down tariffs and would get rid of all tariffs under 2%.

It provided a list of goods that consumers would see come down in price as a result of zero tariffs: These included:

dishwashers (down from 2.7%);
freezers (down from 2.5%);
sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%);
paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%);
mirrors (down from 4%);
scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%);
padlocks (down from 2.7%);
cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%); and
Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)."


Who said this government doesn't do detail? Presumably the civil service has been worrying for months about padlocks. And we all know our biggest expense at Christmas is the tree.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:54 AM

And that assumes, of course, that the effect of these tariff reductions is passed on by the middle-men to the retailers, and by the retailers to the consumers - an assumption which may well fall into the ‘rash’ category.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:15 AM

I don't think I have ever paid more that £15 for a Christmas tree. So that is 37.5p saved per annum.

I expect every tax change of 37.5p per annum to be highlighted from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:24 AM

I have a B&Q artificial tree which cost me about £15 - including the decorations and lights - about seventeen years ago. It lives in my loft, lights and baubles still on it, and with a big plastic bag over it to keep it clean. Every year, one week before Christmas, we carry it down from the loft to the living room,take the bag off, plug it in and switch on, and there ya go! On 1st JanUary, we unplug it, put the bag over it and carry it back up to the loft until next 18th December.

The reduction in the tariff on Christmas trees won’t benefit me one single penny.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:30 AM

I half expect someone to point out that the 2.5% on Christmas trees is almost certainly 2.5% on all timber, and for lots of industries that will be a significant amount.

Which is quite true, but misses the point that this is *political* announcement. It is decidely not about how these tariff changes are good for business, because they don't mention business. It is entirely, wholeheartedly, and specifically about how you, our Brexiteer supporter, are going to be better off. We promised leaving the EU would cut your taxes, and here we are: we have kept to our promise.

As it happens, our dishwasher gave up the ghost recently and we bought a fairly expensive one because it came with a longer guarantee than the cheaper models. That had £14 tax approximately, it seems. We would hope to make it last at least 5 years - the guarantee period - so that is £3 per year. That is noise at a household budget level.

In the scheme of things, almost all of these are trivial. How much yeast does a typical household buy per year? Not many will buy enough to build up £1 of tax over the year, I would guess.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:31 AM

I'm going to deliberately buy a tree I don't need just to save money. Thinking of splashing out on a padlock too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:33 AM

DMcG posted 'I don't think I have ever paid more that £15 for a Christmas tree. So that is 37.5p saved per annum.'

You forgot the VAT of 7.5p, so you would be saving 45p per annum, assuming of course that the tax saving was passed on to you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:34 AM

We've had just three dishwashers in 33 years, and that includes the knackered old one we inherited with the house. That one lasted only a year.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:41 AM

"That one lasted only a year."
I've lasted much longer than that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM

This sounds bloody middle class but a dishwasher saves huge amounts of grief. A house without a dishwasher is like a pub with no beer, or a Morrisons without Negroamaro. Just off to read the news.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM

You need to persuade whoever's in charge that it's the way you treat them Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:57 AM

Interesting thought

Boris may be out by Christmas ,

I don't think I would put any money on it and would worry about the replacement but there is some sound reasoning there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:12 AM

if i was performing like that in my job i would be disciplined and asked if it was really the job for me......i think, given the opportunity, he would jack it in tomomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:08 AM

Maybe it begins, or maybe I have missed other instances:


Scientists are to blame if the government blundered in its response to the coronavirus pandemic, a cabinet minister says.

Thérèse Coffey responded to growing criticism of strategy over testing and the lockdown by acknowledging “wrong” decisions might have been made – but arguing ministers had only followed the experts.

“If the science was wrong, advice at the time was wrong, I'm not surprised if people will then think we then made a wrong decision,” the work and pensions secretary said.


So, no. No one assumes the science to be perfect, but your role as ministers involved challenging it -   how certain is this? What are the alternative possibilities - as well as blending it with other priorities, like financial aspects and politics and humanity. The optimal purely scientific path may well involve approaches that are incompatible with, say, human rights legislation. That will happen because they deal with different aspects of life. It is your job as minister to sort all that out.

Apparently a spokesman for Boris distanced the government from that view:

Boris Johnson's spokesman distanced him from Ms Coffey's comments, saying: “Scientists provide advice to the government, ministers ultimately decide. That’s how government works”

That is correct. Whether they will stick to it when the time comes for an investigation is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM

There is also the fact that the UK has fared far worse than many other countries. All governments should follow the advice of their experts but it seems that some interpret that advice according to political or economic conditions while others do it to protect lives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:13 PM

Nearly 40 years ago on my degree we were studying how selective tory politicians are,
in basing decisions on the chosen scientists who can be used to justify tory ideological agenda...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:17 PM

.. and Coffey reaffirms how ruthless tories are in turning on and blaming others for their own mistakes..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:30 PM

Quite interesting in today press conference that the scientists (and under pressure the minister) have said that the decision to stop the testing on March the 12 was only the advice given the shortage of tests. That is somewhat different to Professor Whitty and the ministers claim at the time that that was the best scientific advice (without qualification.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:27 AM

I think 'best scientific advice' was probably a euphemism for 'how can we do testing with no test kits' Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:46 AM

I am sure that is right, DtG. As I am sure I said before, 'the best scientific advice' when unconstrained may well be different to the best when constrained in various ways. That is why I think Professor Whitty et al did themselves no favours at all by being too political. They needed to be clear at all times exactly what question they were answering and what the constraints were.

It has taken some time to sink in, but some of the scientists are now starting to do that. Last night's press conference was a good example. Mid you, it is quite enlightening to see the comments people make on Facebook as the conference processed. There are plenty of our-government-can=never-be-wrong comments, and there was a lot of chatter about how rude Angela McLean was being. I did not see it myself, unless by 'rude' you mean not letting some of George Eustance's spin pass without clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:54 AM

Angela McLean said what the scientific advice was on reopening. As she should and they all should. Science is open and we pay them after all. Scientists should say what the scientific and public health advice is. If government want to do something different which results in more deaths, they should say so and justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:55 AM

And with now around 60,000 deaths, getting up towards the toll on the Somme, I do not know how Whitty, Vallance and Harries can live with themselves, and not issue an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:29 AM

One thing I think is quite likely to come out of this is for EU to agree a standardised way of recording deaths etc that will make it much easier to compare countries when something like this happens in the future.

The UK will go its own way, of course, on principle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:06 AM

Good piece in the Guardian about how reopening infant schools might look on June 1:

Distanced drop-offs and protective bubbles: England's new school rules

The school featured is no longer scheduled to reopen to reception infants as it's in Calderdale, which has advised schools to stay as they are. And you might just detect a family connection!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:14 AM

Link to that article for anyone struggling to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:15 AM

Great cartoon in The Times this morning
Ist picture shows Johnson holding up sign saying "targets are necessary
The next one shows his back with a target pinned to it reading "Covit Enquiry"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:55 AM

Aa-a-a-and.... John Crace - predictably - nails it yet again!

I could almost feel sorry for Hancock....if he wasn’t usually such a cocky, smart-arsed, lying little twat. As things are, he looks set to become the sacrificial lamb on the altar of Johnsonism. He deserves nothing better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:40 AM

Away from the pandemic I see that government ministers are now reneging on the promises about customs checks and northern Ireland.

Why does this not surprise me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:05 PM

It’s pretty clear that The Johnson Gang are using the Covid-19 crisis as cover for them driving the UK over the cliff-edge of a No-EU-Trade-Deal Brexit by the end of the year, and using Covid-19 as an excuse. Probably one of the reasons they didn’t rush about in the early days of the virus trying to minimise its effect in the UK.

Standard Tory Distraction Technique. Makes a change from “Look over there - Labour Antisemitism!” I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:13 PM

It was great watching Johnson squirming on PMQs, having to say that the government would continue to applaud the NHS and other key workers on Thursday nights but, in the next breath, saying that the surcharge levied on foreign NHS workers in order for them to themselves obtain NHS treatment would remain in force.

You couldn’t make those Tory A-holes up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:03 PM

From the protocol on Northern Ireland:

We are mindful that Irish and other EU leaders repeatedly
emphasised in the context of a ‘no deal’ scenario in 2019 that compliance with Single Market and Customs Union acquis for goods did not require any physical infrastructure at the land border. Logically that must also be the case in the context of the agreed solution constituted by the Withdrawal Agreement.

Only if you have no understanding of logic or English. Saying you do not require an infrastructure in one place says nothing at all about whether you think it would be needed in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:05 PM

But tories have always followed a traditional consistent line of gratitude
towards essential overseas public servants...

"Thanks for helping, now f@ck off back where you came from..."...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:05 PM

i'm 64 - asthama, blood pressure, frequent infections sort of issues and i work supporting adults with disabilities, usually autism. i've been off work for a coupe of months now, being careful. i doubt very much i'll be going back - i need the money and i miss my friends at work- the service users more than my paid colleagues - they are the best people i have ever worked with. but i'm not going to go back. that's it, my work is done - i would never, ever, do anything that could be misconceived as backing this fucking shower of shit. i've known all my life what the tories are about and see what they do and as a union rep i would support my colleagues in any way i can. but i'm not getting ill and maybe dying for these vermin

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:58 PM

Yasmin Alibhai Brown, making her opinion of the malevolent Priti Patel perfectly clear in the inews digital edition.

I find her lack of loyalty to people of the same background and origins as herself jaw-dropping. Who needs enemies with friends like her?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:00 PM

And by ‘her’ In the second and third sentences, I mean, of course, Priti Patel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:25 PM

Haven't I done well, 3 threads removed in one day. So it seems that if one is abusive towards Tories, that's fine. But if Tories dare to andwer back, then eventually forum membership is terminated/threads are terminated - speaks volumes dontcha think?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:07 PM

..and in the blue corner, representing the tory pity party of Great Britain..

Croydon's reigning light-weight accounting champion.. iiiiittt'sss.. Bonzzzzzzzzzz...

Challenging in the red corner, we have all the lefty bullies in mudcat,
ganging up in an unfair fight,
looking mean, and eager to kick poor innocent weak tory arses..

But wait, before the fight even begins,
Bonz has been disqualified
for falsely playing the victim, unjustly smearing his opponents, and tampering with the ref and judges..

Not again... a tory self defeat through blatant dishonest game rigging.. when will they ever learn...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:48 AM

Two were closed, Bonzo, not removed. The Jon Doran one was closed because it became not about him. The why has that thread been closed was closed because you cannot publicly discuss moderation policy. I didn't see the third but if it was about UK politics it will have been removed because only one UK politics thread is allowed and that is this one.

Your point about it being a political decision is completely invalid and accusations of moderation bias at best help no one and at worst will get this thread closed too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Local Resilience Forums fear being overwhelmed if there is no Brexit extension given the coronavirus.

"The warning is contained in a 76-page report by the C-19 National Foresight Group, a cross-government team supporting local resilience forums (LRF)."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 20 - 05:07 AM

When you consider that most yanks are to the right of our Tory party, even most Democrats, and that the mods are mostly yanks, it seems a bit odd to accuse them of anti-Tory bias. Know what I mean, Bonzo? Are you thinking this through? And there are still Tories here. I expect most posh Tories would be a bit embarrassed to post on a forum peopled by scruffy, beardy, unwashed, Aran-besweatered nasal singers with beat-up guitars and bell-bottom jeans anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Speak for yourself, Shaw. I got rid of my bell-bottoms years ago and now go out in my best brown baggies and my platform soles :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:17 AM

(I thought you may be having abuse withdrawal symptoms) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:47 AM

Dyson staff refuse to return to work

I have been having this 'disagreement' elsewhere about confusion in the government's message, and it is interesting that good old Rees-Mogg seems to having the same issue as Dyson.

Part of the government advice is stay at home if you can work from home, and only go to work if you can't work from home.

"If you can't" is suitably ambiguous there. In Rees-Mogg's Parliamentary interpretation, it is essentially, "if your boss permits you." The ability to work remotely, even at a somewhat reduced efficiency, is not enough to say you can work from home. He, and Dyson, and indeed the Government's approach on schools, would like it to be essentially the employer's decision. And oddly enough the employees are not universally happy about that.

I was particularly struck that part of Rees-Mogg's justification that the Houses of Parliament were Covid-Secure was that there would be additional cleaning. But that, of course, essentially transfers the risk of infection from the MPs to the cleaners. What is being done, I wonder, to make sure the site is Covid-Secure for the cleaners? Dare I guess the answer is "Not really thought about it ... they can wear gloves, what more do you want?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 20 - 10:07 AM

Given that another 60,000 people have been infected in the last week despite the current legislation I find it frankly astonishing that anyone would want to relax the legislation or suggest that people return to places to work where infection is most likely to occur.

That is tantamount to manslaughter at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:37 AM

Without evidence, what I am about to suggest may be dismissed as mere bonkers conspiracy theory..

But considering known tory [and even further right wing] form, not entirely implausible...

We've already seriously considered that elements of the tory govt are exploiting the pandemic
as an opportunity to cull vast numbers of the expensive unproductive old and weak in society..

Now let's also add in the possibility that the pandemic and it's prematurely ending lockdown,
might also be weaponised
as a means of ruthlessly deliberately murderously purging essential occupations
of many workers regarded as too left wing...???

"Cull and Purge".. a new snappy inner sanctum tory slogan they don't want the wider population to hear about...

Far fetched...???

.. but only a small step away from the criminal negligence and mass manslaughter this tory govt is already guilty of...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:45 AM

"Without evidence, what I am about to suggest may be dismissed as mere bonkers conspiracy theory.."

Indeed it could.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:10 PM

The idea that we could have a world wide web containing the sum.of human knowledge was a bonkers idea not that long ago!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:20 PM

there is plenty of evidence that proves the main purpose of the neo liberal project is to break up and sell-off the public assets of the state to sell to their rich friends. of course this is done under the name of friendly sounding propoganda like 'free trade' or 'freedom and democracy' etc - sold to us but the propoganda department of the 'free' billionaire owned press. the only question is the whether the damage done to state assets around the world can be seen as direct harm to the citizens. in some cases (see usa health care) it clearly is. as we now realise in england - in many ways, particularly in health and social care) the people ARE the state and will suffer and die if not cared for properly. i've just been reading a bit about the incredible financial arrangments of the largest care home providers in england. these massive assets are sold off eg between germany, dubai and the usa at an alarming rate and all wish to cut costs and piss off workers on minimum wage. this since 1989 when thatcher opened up this part of the health system to the market. anyway - yes, they are killing us but doing a pretty good job of the cover up. look at that old guy walking round his garden! marvelous- good old great britain!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:39 PM

UK and EU disagree about access to crime database
I don't see why anyone should be surprised by rugs as it was identified as a problem area well before the 2016 vote. We have heard from Brexiteers that it will not be a problem because Interpol existed a long time ago, but in an apprent revelation to the UK, it it is a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:47 PM

by rugs?   Blooming autotext.

by this..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:26 PM

UK and EU disagree about access to crime database
I don't see why anyone should be surprised by this as it was identified as a problem area well before the 2016 vote. We have heard from Brexiteers that it will not be a problem because Interpol existed a long time ago, but in an apprent revelation to the UK, it it is a problem.
An interesting viewpoint from The Guardian.

I note it says: The EU has said it is legally impossible for non-EU countries not respecting free movement of people to access the database and has proposed more basic information sharing.

But then elsewhere, The Guardian (yes, the same Guardian) is telling us that the EU no longer has free movement of people. So presumably no-one has access to the database: Yet despite a timid attempt by the European commission to coordinate the reopening of unrestricted cross-border movement within the union, the Schengen common-travel area remains in limbo, along with the lives of millions of EU citizens. If restrictions are easing, borders are not falling.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:29 PM

The idea that we could have a world wide web containing the sum of human knowledge was a bonkers idea not that long ago!

Yes, but unfortunately the world wide web carries a similar amount of total crap. As such it takes a lot of research to be able to identify what, of the content, can be considered part of "the sum of human knowledge".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:47 PM

I don't think you really believe that is a genuine inconsistency, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 20 - 04:45 PM

DMcG:
You're right, I don't believe it's an inconsistency.
I think it's perfectly consistent with Guardian standards. Or EU standards for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 04:52 PM

The internet is overwhelmed with right wing brexiteer zealots
rationalising their perverse biased notions...

That's my "imho", but stated as 'fact'.. [because it most probably is...]...

Hopefully we get some of the more rational brexiteers posting here...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 20 - 04:57 PM

Hopefully we get some of the more rational brexiteers posting here...

Oxymoron alert...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:08 PM

So, Nigel, which part of my statement that you quoted was untrue?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:13 PM

Then let me be more explicit, Nigel. There is an obvious difference between countries who are committed to free movement but, in full accordance with the legislation allowing temporary restrictions during a pandemic (and fully committed to reopening those borders once the emergency is passed) on the one hand, and on the other a country that has decided not to have free movement at all. There is no inconsistency, in either Guardian or the EU on this: just the expectation that the reader/citizen is able to apply a little thought to distinguish temporary and permenant relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:46 PM

chronic pedantry may be incurable...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 20 - 02:42 AM

When it comes to inconsistency, of course, I fully expect the Government and the political talking heads like Ian Duncan Smith, to be completely inconsistent in the way Dominic Cumming's flouting of the lockdown rules is treated, when compared with ministers and other advisors like Neil Ferguson and Dr Catherine Calderwood.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:11 AM

I've never liked cummings (small c for small willy!) and he must suffer the full force of the law for his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:17 AM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:08 PM

So, Nigel, which part of my statement that you quoted was untrue?

I didn't claim that it (or any part of it) was untrue, just that although the WWW may contain "all human knowledge" it also contains a load of crap which would make accessing the "knowledge" an almost impossible task.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:32 AM

A song for the occasion from the superb Dillie Keane.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:59 AM

Fairy nuff, Nigel. Is distraction and diversion now second nature? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:23 AM

I hate Cummings as much as anybody but I'm slightly inclined to hold back on the judging until I know a bit more.

A parallel or two: my son and daughter-in-law live 260 miles from us. Our grandson is the same age as Cummings' son. The missus and I, over a morning brew, discussed what we might do were our son and daughter-in-law to catch the virus. They have family within an hour's drive, but in each household there are small children or vulnerable people. It would probably be down to us to look after the little lad if push came to shove...

We decided that we wouldn't let our son drive to us. The return journey is too much for us to do in a day. We'd probably ask our son to meet us at a services or a junction on the M4 somewhere for a handover (we'd need his child seat in any case), bearing in mind that you can't always cross from one side to the other...He would stay in his car and go straight back home. Big risk for us, but we have no underlying conditions and with luck our son would be sufficiently recovered by the time we came down with it...can't think of anything better...

So what does Dom appear to have done wrong? He drove a very long way unwell. He took two diseased people into a totally different part of the country. He definitely broke the self-isolating rule... His wife wrote what looks like an intentionally misleading piece in The Spectator. Lastly, it's taken two months for this to come out. That smacks of a cover-up both at the Spectator (Tory) and Downing Street (Tory).

What alternatives did they have for their child? It's easy to assume that people like him in high places must have the wherewithal...but we can't be sure... and was he just looking after the interests of a vulnerable person (his son)?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:26 AM

And our plan would also risk bringing the virus to Cornwall, so far a low-incidence zone...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:33 AM

I'm not so forgiving, Steve. Cummings is a twat and if he has done no wrong with this one, he has done plenty before. They got Al Capone on tax evasion didn't they? Anything that nails Cummings will do for me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:02 AM

In my view, if they let Cumming's get away this this, they lose all control of lockdown. People will carry out exactly the level isolation they think is appropriate to them, and any coherent approach goes out the proverbial window.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:34 AM

To my mind there should be no discussion about Cummings. As a "law maker" he has to go.

He knowingly travelled 260 miles while his wife was suffering from the virus and he was showing symptoms of the virus.

The guidelines are that the whole FAMILY had self isolate. Full stop. No if's, no but's no maybes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:47 AM

Well yeah. I'd love to see him go. Good comparison!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:54 AM

Cummings is one of the most powerful well connected men in our nation..

tory apologits are playing the "wouldn't you do the same thing for your family" sympathy card
to get him off the hook..

Bollocks...!!!

As if he didn't have an extensive support system within his social circle and cabel in parliament..

He could have got help [unavailable to the rest of us mere mortals]
within 5 minutes of making a phone call to his right contacts..

No, instead what he did was panic and run away scared from london to his mummy,

.. like a cowardly ship's senior officer fleeing his sinking ship in a lifeboat.
leaving his passengers and crew to drown...

He needs to be keelhauled...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:19 AM

Has there been any speculation about whether or no there were any consideration of the consequences of such clear disregard of these guidelines being discovered?

If there had not been any such consideration, then DC is thick.
If there had - and these people are supposed to be smart - then this event, and the disclosure of it now, appears very much like one more unspoken, and capable of being plausibly denied, encouragement to use individual "Common Sense" in interpreting these "guidelines".
In other words, the inevitable "second spike" can equally inevitably be blamed in part on the actions of "an irresponsible minority". The identities of that irresponsible few ought to be carefully considered.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:43 AM

In Cummings's case there are no consequences - already Government spolesmen have said he is totally innocent of all wrongdoing "What would you do in his place" is the foremost excuse
The government reports of what happened have clashed with those described by the police on the spot
Come on fellers - know your place - Mr 'Cunnings' is above all this
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 20 - 12:01 PM

Look at dominic run..

The cummings and goings of a scurrying sly shifty rat..

Run rodent, run rodent, run, run, run..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 20 - 01:04 PM

Look! Labour antisemitism!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:29 PM

So it would seems that Cummings made several trips around the Co. Durham area whilst he was supposed to be recovering from Covid-19 in London. All those hypocritical ministers who leapt eagerly to his defence must be feeling pretty stupid now....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:16 PM

as a citizen who has stayed in and done everything i can to stay safe i must say how very angry and outraged by the actions of this government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:17 PM

nah, not really - it's hilarious, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:12 AM

He's a fool for breaking quarantine, and a considerably bigger fool for getting caught! My thoughts are with the children in such cases.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:44 AM

I do feel the story has moved on a little from what he did to the intensity of the defences rolled out to defend him. There cannot be many senior ministers officers left who have not leapt to his defence. But so many of these are so weak, you wonder why they think it wise.

"What would you have done?" - Since there are some 257,154 cases now, there are some 257,154 answers to that question, and probably at least one thousand of a couple with a young child where one parent is positive: they can tell him exactly what they did, and I suggest very few of them involved a 500 mile round trip.

"Protecting ones family is what every good parent does." True. But then you ask whether driving 250 miles to see your vulnerable parents the best way of protecting them. And since this government loves war time analogies, evacuating the child and staying in London yourself is a strategy that they could have tried.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 03:19 AM

" My thoughts are with the children in such cases."
There must be millions of families in the same position, if the claims Cunnings made is are accurate anyway) - truth is not a noted feature of these people - it's quite possible he just got bored
Downing Street has contradicted the account of the on-the-spot police as to what happened and it is difficult to find how the two stories differ
A government spokesman first said he broke no rules - he did
Then they said it is understandable he broke the rules - anyone in his position would
They said he didn't stay in the same premises as the family - immaterial and denied by local people anyway
They defended this clown before they got their story straight and once again have exposed themselves as they instinctive liars they are noted for being
It's not the breach of rules that is the main feature here - it's the example it sets to a people being asked to "stay at home and stay safe - that means everybody but us; we'll please ourselves"
Johnson adopted this superior stance from the beginning - gathering shoulder-to-shoulder on camera with people known to be at risk, refusing to be tested then being effected by the virus
That he's not learned his lesson can be shown by the contradictory advice that caused possibly lethal confusion, then, after a heartfelt speech about the danger of making rash decisions, allowing an easing up of the lock-down against the advice of the experts to appease the money-men
Maybe that's Dom Cullings's new culling plan to solve the growing unemployment crisis
My sympathies are with the children too - who the **** deserves to be born into families like that ?

Meanwhile - back at the other asylum
It has now been admitted that there will almost certainly be a sea-border and goods checks around Northern Ireland, despite promises to the contrary
Woulnt'cha you love to be a fly on the wall at the D.U.P. meetings from now on
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:55 AM

The media need to be as relentless on Dom’s Cummings and goings (see what I did there?) as they’ve been over the ‘Corbyn/Antisemitism’ nonsense. And Sir Keir Starmer should be kicking down the door of No. 10 about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:15 AM

However, the chances of Cummings/Cunnings/Cullings resigning/being sacked are zero. Quite simply, he knows too much, too many secrets, about The Johnson Gang for them to risk his taking revenge and dropping them in the shit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:31 AM

...and dropping them in the shit by spilling the beans.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:37 AM

Fascinating to see that all this has had a knock-on effect of revealing the vicious in-fighting that is taking place withing the Tort ranks at present over in-house critiscism of the diasterous way the Covid eergency is being handle involving Cabinet secretary Sir Mark Sidwell, who Scummings wants frogmarched out of Downing Street and the dook of Cambs private secretary
Talk about ducks feet paddling wildly underneath
Anybody like to see Dom the Dim being frogmarched out - over Boris' dead body (it seems), hopefully now that would be poetic justice
You can only live in hope
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 20 - 06:01 AM

Anna Soubry summed it up perfectly on Twatter last night...

”It’s what happens when an established Charlatan becomes Prime Minister & surrounds himself with 3rd-rate yes men and women of limited ability and integrity. What’s absolutely frightening is that we’re in the middle of a dangerous national crisis and this shower of liars are in charge”

And in another Tweet, a Twitter-member posted...

”I have two small children. My husband and I both had #covid19. My dad died alone in hospital, my mum self-isolated for 14 days after losing him.We got through it all without extra childcare or breaking the lockdown. He disrespects our loss and sacrifice.”

And there, in two short pieces, you absolutely have it. Cummings is an utter disgrace, and completely unfit for public service of any kind, and the Tory Liars are unfit to govern.

What a shambles the working-class Neo-Tories dropped us into when they fell for a meaningless three-word slogan, and voted Tory at the GE.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 May 20 - 07:41 AM

He probably does know rather too much for convenience.
Does he own a pen-knife?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 08:15 AM

There have been two other sightings of Cumbag in the same area over the last month, one in the holiday area of Barnard Castle - both denied, of course
Despite of cals from within the Tory party- including from Government ministers who are citing the dangerously confusing effect this behaviour this is generating - Johnson is defending him - obviously unaware of the 'rats, sinking ship' though hee has just been called to Downing Street
Nearly as blood-sportish as Brexit
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 08:29 AM

There's one for Nigel to get his teeth into here. The advice for reopening schools and nurseries says:

children under 2 years need 3.5 metres squared per child

(and similar phrases for other ages.)

Ok. Now there is scientific, business, engineering and established convention for such things of saying '3.5 square metres' if that is what you mean. So was there a deliberate intention to avoid saying '3.5 square metres' and say '3.5 metres squared' to denote they meant the somewhat rarer convention that 3.5 metres squared means 3.5 metres by 3.5 metres, which is about four times as big?

I think we all would agree it is worth knowing whether they meant the smaller space or the larger space.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 08:38 AM

... or, I should have said, is it someone who didn't know any better simply transcribing how

3.5m²
is usually pronounced.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 May 20 - 11:02 AM

DMcG: I agree with your understanding, although I haven't actually seen the advice you're quoting. 3.5 square metres would be about right, with each pupil having a 1m circle into which the next pupils exclusion circle should not encroach (keeping a minimum distance of 2m between pupils).
It's possible that someone has tried 'simplifying' the advice, and failed. The description I give above is, of course, also a simplification, as pupils at the outside of a group would only need a semi-circle of exclusion zone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 May 20 - 11:04 AM

Of course, I should also have clarified that as a one metre (radius) circle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 11:18 AM

I think the physics of that is about right, Nigel - after all a 3.5m sided room is about a room each!

But it does raise the question why the government should use a terminology completely inconsistent with all the established norms.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 May 20 - 11:22 AM

Well, "Dominic Cummings hasn't done anything wrong" is terminologically completely inconsistent with all of the established norms, so don't be too surprised!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 12:49 PM

I have to agree with that one, Steve!

If Johnson thinks he has drawn a line under this, I think he will find he is mistaken. Tomorrow's papers analysis of this press conference will certainly highlight the unanswered questions, such as :

Johnson is asked whether his support for Cummings means that other people are completely at liberty to do as his chief aide did.

“I think what they did was totally understandable,” Johnson replied. “I think any father, any parent would understand what he did.”

---

Well, maybe you do, but that was not the question, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 01:15 PM

Having now accepted the the Cumming's traveller 200 miles with syptoms of the virus Johnson says he did no wrong because he did "something every parent would have done"
Johnson has now taken a political cyanide pill in defence of this non elected thug - he needs to stand trial for endangering the lives of the public
Scummings cheif critic in the cabinet - the leading Brexiteer who first demanded his expulsion has stated that this feller has always behaved as if he is above both Government decisions and above the law
Id it possible Jonno the joker and his henchmen are making the beast with two backs, I wonder - something seems to be going on between them
WOULDN'T be the FIRST TIME
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 01:15 PM

Having now accepted the the Cumming's traveller 200 miles with syptoms of the virus Johnson says he did no wrong because he did "something every parent would have done"
Johnson has now taken a political cyanide pill in defence of this non elected thug - he needs to stand trial for endangering the lives of the public
Scummings cheif critic in the cabinet - the leading Brexiteer who first demanded his expulsion has stated that this feller has always behaved as if he is above both Government decisions and above the law
Id it possible Jonno the joker and his henchmen are making the beast with two backs, I wonder - something seems to be going on between them
WOULDN'T be the FIRST TIME
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 20 - 01:18 PM

I guess that unelected bureaucrats doing what they want is the norm. That will s what people voted to stop in 2016. Oh, hang on....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 20 - 01:29 PM

Out of all the most arrogant callous despicable people associated with this govt,
cummings is the one who would look most naturally at home
in an N@zi SS officer's uniform...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 01:53 PM

THERE IS A RESEMBLANCE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 20 - 01:59 PM

It's a pity there isn't anyone here trying to defend Cummings. We could do with a laugh :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:11 PM

It is easy to defend Cummings. All you have do is say:

I believe he was justified and within the rules

irrespective of what the question is.

Of course, it is not actually a very good defence...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:12 PM

Come on. I know there are still some Tories on here. Let's hear your excuses. Would you be so quiet if Jeremy Corbyn had flaunted the lockdown rules?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:35 PM

to me it's way beyond cummings now. the government will lie, lie and lie again to protect him. i can't really think what they have to gain by this shameless hypocrisy. i'm sure there are millions of people extremely cheated, patronised and angry now. it is certainly my instinct to do what i can to protect my family, my community and my country - but they are lucky bas***ds - can you imagine the size and anger of a demonstration in london, now, if we weren't all doing as instructed and observing lockdown guidelines. i miss john major.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:36 PM

Starmer is tactfully standing back from attacking cummings and insisting on his dismissal,
because enough dismayed conservatives are already doing it themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 20 - 03:16 PM

Anybody else wonder if the Cummings farrago is a deliberate, Tory-government-induced distraction-tactic to take the public’s minds off the 36,000 deaths in the U.K. from Covid-19?

Wouldn’t put it past the slimy bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 20 - 03:32 PM

"because enough dismayed conservatives are already doing it themselves..."
Not Really PFR - more likely because he's another Blair in sheep's clothing
Beware of knights bearing gifts
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:20 PM

right now even Blair would be better than boris... [..sigh of despair..]...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:52 PM

You may remember the course of action that Catherine Calderwood, Chief Medical Officer of Scotland, took when she flouted the guidelines.

She apologised "I am deeply sorry for my actions and the mistakes I have made" and resigned.

She had not been in a household with someone already infected, she was not infected herself.

Cummings was in a household with an infection person, was beginning to show signs of infection himself, and chose to drive 260 miles to the home of elderly people.

Just how much rope does it take.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:13 PM

From today press (my capitals)

"Three members of SPI-B, the Sage subcommittee providing advice from behavioural scientists to government on how the public might respond to lockdown measures, reacted with disdain to Johnson’s defence of Cummings.
Prof Stephen Reicher, of St Andrews University, tweeted: “I can say that in a few short minutes tonight, Boris Johnson has TRASHED all the advice we have given on how to build trust and secure adherence to the measures necessary to control Covid-19.
“Be open and honest, we said. TRASHED. Respect the public, we said. TRASHED. Ensure equity, so everyone is treated the same, we said. TRASHED. Be consistent we said. TRASHED. Make clear ‘we are all in it together’. TRASHED.
“It is very hard to provide scientific advice to a government which doesn’t want to listen to science. I hope, however, that the public will read our papers … and continue to make up for this bad government with their own good sense.”
He was backed by Prof Susan Michie and Prof Robert West

Can Cummings survive this?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:19 PM

I've said on other platforms that if the end result is that if other people follow Cummings example and the infection rate starts going up exponentially again, the 10s or 100s of thousands of deaths would be Johnson's problem, nobody else's.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:27 PM

So will Michie and West take public health seriously and send copies of their papers to every household, or aren't we entitled to be treated with respect?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:46 PM

So will Michie and West take public health seriously and send copies of their papers to every household, or aren't we entitled to be treated with respect?

I hope they make them publicly accessible at least. Of course, I am sure there are confidentiality clauses, but I bet Keir Starmer can brief them (or arrange an independent lawyer to brief them) on the relevant whistleblower protections.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 20 - 07:32 PM

Even if cummings is booted out,
he'd still remain an essential influencer in Boris's close social circle...

All he'd be deprived of is the formal job title..

If he loses a salary, he's bound to still have his nose in many other lucrative troughs...

The pair of them are either too arrogantly stubborn, and thick,
if they think they can fool us all and weather the storm..
Or maybe there is something fishier going on...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 May 20 - 11:18 PM

And, as always, the brilliant John Crace puts his finger fairly, squarely, and firmly on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 20 - 01:42 AM

Laura Kuenssberg summarises the position quite neatly, I think.

"Did the prime minister manage to shut this mess down today? Not even close."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 20 - 02:03 AM

In the best of circumstances in the film 1917, Benedict Cumberpatch playing a colonel, told the lance corporal to fuck off. Now, in the worst of circumstances johnson should tell cummings to do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 20 - 02:26 AM

And the country should tell Johnson precisely the same.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 20 - 02:29 AM

The country will have its chance to do that at the next generous erection!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 20 - 02:37 AM

I think come the next press conference there will be a lot of questions to the scientists of the form "How you answer this puts your scientific integrity on the line: Has the ability to interpret the childcare clause based on convenience rather than necessity put the strategy at risk, as some SPI-B members are claiming?"

Of course, the journalists will be able to phrase the questions better, but something along those lines seems very likely.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:27 AM

Says it all really

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:03 AM

What is being said to every British parent is to feel free to avoid the safety advice at the risk of everybody's safety - lethal message added to chaos
Some of his leading ministers are turning on him, some demanding an enquiry into the mishandling of the whole crisis
In the slim likelihood of that happening, Johnson will, no doubt resort to the Trumpish tactic (now being used by Netanyahu in his corruption trial) of claiming there is an establishment plot to unseat him
Entertaining if nothing else
Keep safe
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:12 AM

The SNP have tweeted:

I will be putting in an Early Day Motion tomorrow. 7 words. 'This House believes Dominic Cummings must go'.

OK, with an 80 majority the PM is unlikely to lose, but the MPs will be well aware that their vote will be referenced come the next election. They will find themselves somewhat torn, having seen their own emails from constituents and reading that a "Good Morning" poll says 79% of people think Cummings should go.

I am sure most will back the PM, but they will all be very uncomfortable about where that could end up for them personally.

The most entertaining would be if Johnson lost the vote, but ignored it, as he is entitled to under the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:49 AM

If he had any self respect at all Cummings would fall on his sword for Boris. Of course that would leave bozzer without a puppet master.

Sunak for PM anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 20 - 07:02 AM

If back-benchers put party before people, opposition parties need to make sure that the lackeys' contributions to the debate are not forgotten by constituents. Hansard can be quite handy for this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 20 - 07:10 AM

Before we forget that we pay Cumming's wages.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/dominic-cummings-salary-revealed-as-spending-on-special-advisers-rises

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 25 May 20 - 07:27 AM

MICE AND MEN

The riverside has two new mice
we released them just today
they'd moved in during lockdown
but we couldn't let them stay.

We hope that they'll be safe
and stay away from cats
that's more than I can say
for certain Tory rats.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 20 - 11:01 AM

Run Rat Boy, run...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 20 - 11:03 AM

Some young wazzock from Guido Fawkes on BBC News just now, wittering and whingeing on about how ‘unfair’ it is that Cummings has been ‘hounded’ by the media about his Road Trips. Funny thing - Guido didn’t think it was ‘unfair’ when Corbyn was being hounded by the media about complaints of anti-semitism brought by a pro-Israel/anti-Palestine group over the past year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 20 - 12:36 PM

Courtesy of James O'Brien (slightly modified)

(q) What has 730 arms, 730 legs and 16 backbones?

(A) The parliamentary conservative party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 20 - 12:47 PM

You couldn't make this up. Cummings said in his press meeting that his eyesight had been playing up and he did not want to drive to London because he was unsure about it.

He got in his car and drove 30 miles and he wasn't sure about his eyesight.

If I had doubts about my eyesight I won't get behind the ******* wheel in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 May 20 - 01:27 PM

did cummings really say about where he was staying 'it isn't a house -it's more a few concrete blocks'? really?- i think we need to see a photo of these blocks

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 20 - 01:37 PM

Cumings bleated that he did nothing wrong as the rule allow people to use their judgement. Someone in his position of authority and responsibility - not to mention a £99,999 tax payer paid salary need to apply good judgment, otherwise they are failing within the responsibilities related to the job, particularly where it influences national policies that we are all expected to abide by.

I hope that as a result of this dismissal on the grounds failure to apply good judgement will automatic be deemed unfair or wrongful dismal and subject to retrospective reinstatement and compensatory awards.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 20 - 01:47 PM

(Look vulnerable in a skinny white shirt...walk across the garden with a stoop...sit down at a trestle table with your nervous, twitchy legs full in view...speak quickly but be hesitant too...make yourself look like a rabbit caught in the headlights...keep wittering about the same thing...mutter about how flawed you are and how many mistakes you've made, but not about this...let your notes flutter in the breeze...don't lose your temper or sound testy whatever you do...avert your eyes nervously as eye-contact isn't a good look...whatever you do you have to look like the exact opposite of the mean-minded, ruthless, power-crazed lying git that you really are...)

"Sorry I'm late..." (the apologies ended there...)

Didn't Vicky do a great fill-in! Give that woman a bonus!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 20 - 01:59 PM

After that convincing heartfelt press conference,
I've changed my mind and shamefully realise how wrong we've always been about him..

Mr Cummings is a noble humanitarian, a self sacrificing hero the nation should be proud of;
and he must be honoured with a knighthood immediately...!!!

The disgraceful treasonous leftist BBC must be replaced with Guido TV...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: fat B****rd
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:00 PM

Where'd he get the petrol ?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:06 PM

a magic petrol tree, next to the tory magic money forest...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:16 PM

He was asked about topping up his tank. He bullshitted that he, er, couldn't quite remember (you'd have thought that an arch spin-doctor might have been ready for that one..). In a frugal car he might have just made the return trip on a full tank, but, considering he also did a sixty-mile return trip to Barnard Castle and a hospital trip...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:32 AM

There are so many details that sounds odd in combination, even if individually they are plausible, For example the eyesight. I found this on a glaucoma site:


Coronavirus may cause pink eye — but it’s rare
If you see someone with pink eye, don’t panic. It doesn’t mean that person is infected with coronavirus. But health officials believe viral pink eye, or conjunctivitis, develops in about 1% to 3% of people with coronavirus. The virus can spread by touching discharge from an infected person’s eyes.


So lets assume the mid point 2%. One person in 50. Plausible.

But then we hear both he and the Prime Minister had it: as these are independent events, that's now one in 2500. Starting to look dodgy, wouldn't you say?

Then there is the odd detail of the four your old needing the toilet in Barnard Castle (Which I know well: my in-laws lived there for 15 years)

What we always did when the children were small was check if they had been to the toilet before we got in the car, even it was just a trip to the supermarket. You don't want to be stuck in a traffic jam in the middle of a housing estate with a wailing child wanting the toilet. So, as I say, we always ensured they went to the toilet before they left the house and I think all the parents I now did, often after bitter experience. So, they leave the house for a 'short' 30 mile drive and, while there, the child needs the toilet.   A day of so later, they take the child on a 260 mile drive.

Yes, I understand four year olds can be unpredictable in such matters. But it seems far more likely that either there was a lot more than the journey time between the two toilet trips, or else there would be several stops on the 260 mile journey.   So while not impossible, it is a curious detail that doesn't seem too likely.

Incidentally, if you suddenly feel unwell and have to sit and rest after taking 30 mile which was expressly to determine if you were well enough to do the 260 mile one the next day, wouldn't you conclude the answer is 'no'?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:00 AM

it is slight pity there is no one to tell us the current approval rating for Johnson and the Government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:00 AM

Posted without comment - none being necessary...

Why did Cummings scuttle off to Barnard Castle? A possible explanation....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:02 AM

it is slight pity there is no one to tell us the current approval rating for Johnson and the Government.

Although I’m usually in complete agreement with you, on this occasion I must differ. This is a very much nicer place without the Tory Party’s Mouthpiece.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:09 AM

Perhaps worth mentioning too that, on the same day that GSK announced their deal with Sanofi to produce a vaccine, Idox - the company responsible for the government’s track and trace software - announced the appointment of a new director, someone called Alice Cummings.

Could just be two astonishing co-incidences, I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:14 AM

First casualty of the Cummings defence - a Tory junior minister resigns - no doubt more to come
How nay feet has this feller got to shoot himself in
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:22 AM

I think Cummings drives a Range Rover. The fuel capacity of those vehicles is 57 litres or 12.5 gallons.

Now the comsumption figure given by Range Rover for Extra Urban driving is 44.1 miles per gallon. (I've never managed to achieve manufacturers figures in any vehicle)

So 44.1 x 12.5 will give a maximum range of 551.25 miles

London to Durham          269 miles
Durham to London          269 miles
Durham to Barnard Castle 26 miles
Barnard Castle to Durham 26 miles

Total 590 miles ......………….Ooops!

Just one further point if he is unsure whether he filled up is a quick check on his bank statement. Would only take a couple of minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 09:12 AM

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:02 AM etc.

Yes, I agree about my post. Mistakes makes were made, lessons will be learned, I am sorry if you feel any distress.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 20 - 09:32 AM

I still discount his 'no alternative' excuse as complete bollocks..
In typical tory 'every man for himself' tradition,
he panicked and fled London in sheer mindless terror...

No alternative...???

What, one of the most powerful well connected men in the nation,
could not make a phone call to his elite inner work and social support circle
to fix up immediate professional emergency childcare cover.. Liar...!!!


Now to his dodgy road trip back to London...

He seriously expects us to believe a still unwell man of his importance to the prime minister
could not have asked to be provided with a driver and safe transport,
arranged at short notice on formal request to his employer...??????????????????????????... Liar...!!!

There was never any need for him to get behind the wheel for such a long drive,
that was his own bizarre arrogant reckless choice...

..reasonable, and integrity...??? double bollocks...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 20 - 11:28 AM

Mary Wakefield, Cummings' missus, can drive. Just thought I'd chuck that one in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 20 - 11:46 AM

.. that's reassuring, two posh pillocks still recovering from serious illness,
sharing long distance driving duties...

.. with a vulnerable child on the back seat..

What responsible parents...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 20 - 11:50 AM

.. Getting back to London urgently to resume important Govt work..

..or maybe sneaking back quietly before the boss discovered
he'd scarpered up north to mummy in panic...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:16 PM

So the guy with the dodgy eyes experimentally drove 60 miles with a sprog in the back and a missus who could have done the driving...

Mind you, Mrs Steve won't drive me anywhere. She reckons I'm a terrible passenger. Nothing to do, of course, with my noticing the sheer vandalism she inflicts on the transmission...

There's a very amusing post on twitter which I don't know how to link to. It's a photo of a castle with the caption and Specsavers artwork superimposed "Should have gone to Barnard Castle" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:20 PM

Next time I go to Specsavers I'll insist on sitting inside a car simulator as my eye test is carried out. It's the only way to make sure my eyes are working properly. Dom sez so...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:31 PM

I have seen a lot of Specsaver jokes: they must be loving the free publicity.

One said they have installed a drive-in eye test centre at Brands Hatch.

It makes sense to me, The top line of the eye chart are dodgems, all the way down to Formula One for the bottom line.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:32 PM

Boris's popularity plummets

I suppose we have something to thank Dom for :-)


The Prime Minister now has an approval rating of below that of opposition leader Sir Keir Starmer, and the ratings of other senior ministers including Dominic Raab and Matt Hancock have similarly tumbled.

And all this is in the Daily Heil! They will be telling us he is antisemitic soon... :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:01 PM

Cummings (now there’s a name to conjure with!) must have some very interesting pics of Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:23 PM

must have some very interesting pics of Johnson.

There's a known condition called 'Imposter Syndrome' where people feel they are in some way a fraud and people will find them out. It is quire common for stage comedians to have a fear that the audience will suddenly realise they are not really funny.

Boris seems, unfortunately, to be very like that. He fears Cummings is the only reason he has got where he is (I can imagine a "I made you - I can break you" conversation) so he fears that without him he would be exposed as an 'imposter'.

I am now sure what the term is for someone with imposter syndrome who really is an imposter.


I am reminded of a Melanie verse:

There was a man who thought to him his friends were all superior.
And this complex he imagined made life drearier and drearier.
Till his analyst assured him that he really was inferior
As the id goes marching on!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:23 PM

... I am not sure ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:24 PM

please don't make them public domain...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:50 PM

"must have some very interesting pics of Johnson."
Jaysus - I'm about to have my meal Baccie
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:10 PM

According to a Guardian report of where the Cummings were seen, it wasn't Barnard Castle at all; it was Startforth. Now, admittedly crossing between them takes about 20 seconds on foot over the 16th C bridge, but Barney is in County Durham and Startforth was in North Yorkshire, for example, until transferred to County Durham administrative and ceremonial purposes on 1 April 1974. As with all these places, they don't hold with this new fangled stuff, and consider themselves from Yorkshire. Mixing them up, for the locals, is about as risky as mixing up Newcastle and Gateshead.

Anyway, Startforth is south of the river, and GMK is north of the river, and would be a substantial walk for the child. Depending on how they got to Startforth and where they parked, Dominic Cummings might have gone, but I doubt if the child would. It would make more sense to park north of the river in Barney if visiting GMK was part of their reason for being there.

So my inclination is to suspect they did not visit GMK on this occasion, though of course that is largely conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:14 PM

GSK throughout that. (What an idiot!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 20 - 06:17 AM

Just seen a Reuter’s fact-check article in which Idox state that their recently-appointed non-executive Director, Alice Cummings, is not related to, and has no connection with, Dominic Cummings.

I suppose we have to take their word for it but, in the face of the barefaced lies being touted by most of the leading members of the government regarding Durhamgate, it’s becoming more and more difficult to separate truth from deception.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 20 - 11:27 AM

At the end of last week, my brother in law had the virus test because he works in a care home. It came back 'unclear'. So he was ask to take another test and it came back 'positive'. Then he and his wife went for a test to confirm the result and they both came back 'negative'.

Strangely enough, they are they are now a combination of confused and worried (he has underlying health issues.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:28 PM

I wrote to my MP today. He's Scott Mann, Conservative MP for north Cornwall. You might think I was a bit mild.


Dear Mr Mann

I live near Bude, and for 18 months now my 91-year-old mother has been living in a care home in Whitstone, just six miles from me. Before the lockdown I visited her about four times a week. That stopped suddenly in early March. She is profoundly deaf, so I can't speak to her on the telephone, and she is neither allowed out nor am I allowed in to see her. It's now almost three months since I last saw her. Like thousands of people around the country, I've accepted that my mum and I must put up with this very distressing situation for our own safety and for the greater good of the country as a whole.

Imagine then how I feel about Dominic Cummings doing what he did. I can't accept that he had no alternative, a man in his position and presumably with a considerable circle of potential support in London. I hope you will consider joining the growing ranks of Conservative MPs calling for him to step down. The Government will be seriously diminished in its moral standing in the country should he remain in post.

Yours sincerely

Steve Shaw

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:31 PM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson wrote to our party-line-toeing Tory MP in similar terms, Steve. We hold out little hope of his support.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:58 PM

Apparently there is a local support group where he lives that would have helped out with his child, even though cummings does not support them himself!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 20 - 12:35 AM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson wrote to our party-line-toeing Tory MP in similar terms, Steve. We hold out little hope of his support

I would - in fact probably did - say the same about my MP, but Royston Smith has joined the list of those who have publicly said Cummings must go. Given his solid ERG support, his support for TTIP, his being identified by the Independent as the least active MP in the 2016 intake, his track record of voting along the party lines (except always pro hard Brexit) ...

Assuming they don't back down, the SNP said they will submit an Early Day Motion saying "This house believes Cummings must go". If that happens, each MP will be forced to declare their stance or abstain. They are all aware of their inboxes and letters and there are enough who have said they want Cummings to go to overturn the 80 majority. If they do not, of course, they will be personally weakened by publicly saying one thing but voting differently.

However: I think there is a great risk that even if he loses the vote, Johnson will simply ignore it. If the Durham Constabulary ask Cummings to come to an interview, I strongly suspect he will ignore them and Johnson would back him. We are in extremely dangerous times if that happens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 01:25 AM

It is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:59 AM

Johnson had now ruld out an enquiry into the Cummings affair despite the fact that the number of Toty MPs demanding action on it now top 40
Democrcy rules Ok in the Tory Party, it would appear
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:24 AM

I wonder if any of the former-Red-Wall Neo-Tory voters are now beginning to regret their three-word-slogan-fuelled folly in November last year?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:36 AM

John Crace telling it like it is once again, in The Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:57 AM

our 'workington man' tory mp Mark Jenkinson defends all the government lies and insults to ordinary people and doesn't like people criticising him or them. it's a risky business round here as he has a well-established reputation as being a bully and not too smart. which reminds me i must change my name. if anyone is interested we have a very good local guy posting on facebook as 'left-eye news' workington. he's quite funny about 'our jenky'

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 May 20 - 07:41 AM

Barnard Castle Eye Test A limited edition beer (New England style IPA 6%).
It's been mentioned (positively) in The Guardian, and is quite a clever piss-take (or should that be piss-make?). Profits on the sales are going to Brewdog's continued production of hand-sanitiser for the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 20 - 02:25 PM

I have just been in a Zoom call with Keir Starmer (along with a great number of others, obviously.) I was impressed at the way he handled all the questions thrown at him, and there was a promise that all the questions submitted will be answered, so I wait to see what he says about mine. But I am just off for an evening walk now, so you will have to wait for the next installment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:44 PM

The closed hospital crisis in Weston super mare..

Do we need to say more about whichever fukwit authorised relaxing restrictions on long distance travel..

..to 'exercise'...!!!?????

It doesn't need professors and expensive state of the art mathematical modelling
to have predicted these obvious consequences..

Trusting the common sense of the English population...???

That's a sick joke..

The Govt is definitely devoid of any...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:46 PM

Keir Starmer is very clued up and very intelligent with no insincere bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:01 AM

My review of the 'Ask Keir' videoconference with Kier Stsrmer 'at' Southmapton.

Let's begin with a health warning. I understand that every politician wants to say things that resonate with people, and presenting it well is a skill many have. I have heard many politicians 'live' with an audience and most of them manage to leave the audience satisified and even buoyed up. Most of them do that with a well rehearsed speech, and rhetorical skills - knowing what to repeat, knowing when to raise and lower the voice and so on - so it is in some ways more like attending a performance of a play, rather than a meeting.

So, we need to make sure we are not carried away by it all.

The timing, format and content were all important, so I will say a bit about each. It took place on 28/5/2020, starting at 6:15pm; the daily coronavirus meeting had ended something like 15 minutes beforehand. The session opened with an introduction by the chairman who was strictly non-political but a presenter of Wave Radio, a local station. I guess, but don't know, that it went out live on the radio as well. He spoke for less than a minute and just described how the session would run. So at round about 6:17, Keir Started speaking and spoke for no more than 2 minutes himself saying the whole purpose was to answer people's questions, but he wanted to say he was appalled by how the questions to the scientists had been blocked by Johnson in the press conference that had just finished, and how dangerous that was.

I make a point of that, because as in my health warning, even in Q+A sessions, a lot of the same questions come up, and a good politician has, after a few such sessions, stock answers he can give. This was a 'near real time' event: he had no focus-group information on whether people thought Johnson was right to stop the questions or not. In fact, because there is a 'chat window' running alongside the press conference, the only feedback he might have got was that people thought it was right to stop the scientists being drawn in. (I suspect that are a lot of tory staffers posting many of the comments, but that is by-the-by.) So his condemnation of that and recognition of the dangers was as near genuine as you could expect.

It was an hour session, and we are about three minutes into it. The rest of the time, he was responding to questions from the public. He did seem to have a template for the answer, which was invite the person to say how they voted last election and why they chose that, then answer the question, then ask them if they had one thought they wanted him to take away from this, what would it be? He did not follow that absolutely strictly, but it seemed to come up a lot.

One of the things he had said in the opening 2 minutes was he recognised how badly Labour had failed at the election, and the only way to turn that round in his view was to listen to people, particularly those who didn't vote Labour and understand their concerns. He said people often ask him which previous leader he most models himself on, and he claims not to. Obviously, that is one of these prepared answers, but I would say there is one characteristic of Blair that he seemed to me to follow: a willingness to do what it takes to win. There are definite risks in that, especially for those who fear he will be too centrist, or even towards the right. But it is clearly different to the Corbyn approach, which was much more if you present the right policies, people will vote for it.

As it happened, almost everyone who asked a question had voted Conservative in the last election. There was one ex-LibDem councillor who had also voted LibDem in the last election, but said he had been persuaded by Keir over the past few months so would vote for him next time. The was a youth of around 16 who clearly hadn't had a chance to vote yet, and one of perhaps 25 who was a bit depressed because he lives in a Tory stronghold so felt he vote was largely wasted, but everyone else was either a long standing Conservative or an Labour-but-voted-Tory-last-time person. There were no 'alt-right' Conservatives.

The questions were, in the main, fairly predictable. A nurse wanted to know how we deal with long term pay and conditions. The 16 year old was concerned about how results would be handled, another was concerned about BAME differences in susceptability to the virus and what was being done to protect those at risk and so on.

So some of the answers were stock, I am sure, but they did seem to make sense to me. For example, I liked his decisiveness about school re-opening: yes, we do have to open them as soon as possible, so "we have to lock all the unions, headmasters, scientific advisors, local authorities in a room and hammer out an agreed approach and no-one leaves until we have". One party simply declaring the route cannot work.

Overall, he came over as decisive, and genuinely listening. And I believe he was: this determination to win came over strongly, and I do think he sees understanding why people did not vote for them last time is key.   I also liked the ability to react to the press conference that had finished only a few minutes before while doing other preparation for the call (presumably)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:25 AM

I see the Guardian has a quotation from the session I have just described:

Labour also kept the pressure on Johnson. Keir Starmer, the party leader, said it was “extraordinary that the prime minister stopped the scientists being able to answer a question put to them by journalists”.

Answering questions on a virtual Q&A with voters, Starmer said this reflected badly on Johnson: “The government has been saying for weeks on end, this is about transparency, it’s about answering whatever questions you’ve got. And then on the question people want to hear an answer on, he stops them answering. It’s the wrong thing to do.

“I don’t think he’s going to have impressed anybody with that tonight. I don’t think he’s impressed anybody over the past week.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:50 AM

Just imagine the outrage of Jeremy Corbyn had done a Cummings. To say I am disgusted by the attitude of Bojo and his sycophants is an understatement. I have friends who are now attacking the press for what they are doing after a long silence while that same press were destroying Corbyn. I am not going to fall out with them over this but you can be damned sure that I will point out that the press have always been the same. One thing in Cummings' favour. If the Daily Heil are running for him, he must have done something right :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:55 AM

I found Starmer's stance on this issue a strong confirmation that he isn't going to rock the status-quo boat as far as righting the wrongs in Britain
He didn't stress the outrageous behavour of this bunch of crooks in defending this arrogant arsehole - he said Boorish must "Get back on track"
I doubt that many here don't know where that track leads
The Tories have yet to get "on track" as gar as the pandemic is concerned - twists, contradictions, confusion and U-turns so far - who want to go there
Last night's Question Time was almost overwhelmingly condemnatory - but nobody asked the right question - if the architect of this lock-down can ignore the guidelines with the enthusiastic support of the Government why the **** shouldn't nobody else who feels like it do the same
This lethal moron should be frogmarched out of Downing Street along to The Old Bailey and tried for deliberately misleading the British People
Maybe they can find a jury of his peers in Regent's Park Zoo
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:28 AM

I can hardly bring myself to watch the awful Helen Whately. God knows how people like that get anyone to actually vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:35 AM

"If the Daily Heil are running for him, he must have done something right :-)"
Oddlly enough, the arch-Tory Murdoch bumwipe, 'The Times' seem happy for their cartoonist to use him as a punchbag - I haven't seen such ridicule-filled cartoons since the halcyon days of Jeremy Corbyin - when Labour had a leader worthy of its name
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:32 AM

Front page headline from The Times:
"PM eases lockdown for friends and family"

Well, that's the Cummingses and Johnsons sorted then ;)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:43 AM

""Well, that's the Cummingses and Johnsons sorted then ;)"
Do you honestly think so Nigel
It was a coincidence that the announcement came on yet another day of him and his Party sinking deeper into the Klarts over the Cummings "get out of jail free" fiasco of course
After all, what's risking a few thousand lives next to losing your own personal unelected gofer
Are you really happy with all this Nigel - you surprise me ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:57 AM

the smart political move for cummings wouldbe to apologise resign and quietly return in nine months time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:12 AM

I think Nigel was havin’ a larrff, Jim! A rare bit of lighthearted Nigel whimsy - very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:12 AM

I think he was too - not so rare with him - he supports the Tory Party - doesn't get more whimsical tan that :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 May 20 - 09:24 AM

Perhaps, at 2-50AM, the words were intended to be, "if the Daily Heil is 'gunning' for him..."? Seems consistent, but of course D the G may confirm.
Curse you, "Autocorrect"!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:49 PM

Yep. My spill chucked ducked it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:07 PM

I'm tempted to see a connection with "conjectural restorations" of missing or corrupt lines in some old songs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 08:21 AM

Four leading health experts have spoken out at the Government's plans for easing lockdown describing it an unresearched 'leap in the dark'
One pointed out that any plans that any plans to relax lockdown has too be approached regionally as situations differ enormously in different parts of Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 12:35 PM

Well. the south west where I live is now suffering direct consequences of the far too premature relaxing of travel restrictions..

boris is scared of losing popularity with the undisciplined unruly 'chavs' and cretins who put him in power,
and are now becoming restless to get pissed, party, f@ck, and fight
at our local seaside and rural beauty spots...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:12 PM

The chief medical officer has just stated that it is fat too dangerous to proceed in this way - he also quietly slated Cummings, especially for his 30m 'Test my eyesight" journey
What a shower
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:17 PM

Yebbut, yebbut, yebbut...look over there - Labour antisemitism! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:49 PM

That's my line BWM :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 02:23 PM

yebbut.. Corbyn broke the lockdown...!!!

why don't the mainstream media go after him
like the way they're cruelly persecuting poor responsible justifiable dom cummings...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:11 PM

Pfr, Corbyn is yesterday’s man as far as the Whataboutery-Brigade are concerned. Nowadays they’re after Sir Keir Starmer, with claims that he ‘protected the grooming-gangs’. All complete nonsense of course, but any port in a storm...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:17 PM

I see a possible row with Van-Tam, now that he said in today's press conference:

“In my opinion the rules are clear and have always been clear. In my opinion they are for the benefit of all and they apply to all.”

If the government are stupid, they will say: we agree - the rules are clear and Cummings was within them. That will then lead to Van-Tam being asked for more clarification next time he is on (if ever!) and the story keeps going.

I thought the story could have died, but it is now live enough for Keir to raise it at the next PMQ without looking like he is flogging the famous dead horse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:25 PM

I emailed my PM earlier today to express my considerable anger at the action of Dominic Cummings. I received a reply this evening that surprised me for two reason. One that the reply was so quick and secondly the reply itself. I have to congratulate my PM for being so candid and forthcoming. The salient part of his reply is below.

"If press reports are correct, Dominic Cummings has fallen short of the standards we expect of every individual, never mind a person who should be setting an example. If he was unsure what the rules were then he could have got advice from medical experts and those in charge of the programme at the very highest level. At the very least he could have made it publicly clear what he intended to do ahead of travelling north.

I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:38 PM

But... but... that's far too clear and concise for the gentleman in question. And not a mention of "cracking-on", "following the science", or even a Latin "tag" so familiar it can be found in any medium-sized Dictionary. I regret to say someone must be impersonating the bold Boris, Raggytash. Fair play to you for writing directly to The PM, though. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:49 PM

BWM - I obviously agree with you.. [errmmm.. Corbyn - who he...???]

But what I posted about Corbyn is near verbatim [ok a little poetic license..],
still being whatabouted to defend the indefensible
on other social media...

..they're that thick...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:16 AM

A scathing piece by George Monbiot, detailing the behaviour of The Johnson Gang in the conscious, deliberate ‘de-preparing’ the UK for the Covid-19 pandemic, and the reasons for it - and, as always with the Tory ideologues, it’s about the money...always about their god, money.

https://www.monbiot.com/2020/05/26/the-machine-stops/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Raggy:
Did you mean to say I emailed my PM earlier today or was 'PM' a typo for 'MP'.
I ask because ABCD appears to think that the reply you quoted was from Boris.

The response you quoted was not as clear cut as it appears.
"If press reports are correct, Dominic Cummings has fallen short of the standards we expect of every individual, never mind a person who should be setting an example. If he was unsure what the rules were then he could have got advice from medical experts and those in charge of the programme at the very highest level. At the very least he could have made it publicly clear what he intended to do ahead of travelling north.
I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post."

The two 'if's give your MP as much wriggle room as members of HIGNFY adding "allegedly" to some sentences.
As for suggesting that he should have made his travel plans public. Apart from Royalty, no-one does that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 20 - 06:35 AM

Maybe I am coming down with something - I feel the need to defend the government on some things....

Well, not really. More that I think if you accuse them too wildly of things, they are easily denied and you look untrustworthy yourself. So it is a good idea not to get too hyperventilated.

"The government knowingly and deliberately de-prepared the UK, even as the pandemic began to bite."

That seems to me a bit of a misrepresentation. It sounds almost as if the objective was to make the UK less prepared. It is much more accurate, I would guess, to say the value of preparation was unrecognised and undervalued. Reducing stockpiles 'saves money' in the grand scheme of things. That is makes you less resilient was not treated with enough seriousness, but it should not presented and a deliberate decision to increase risk, in my opinion.


Mary Bousted, Joint General Secretary of the National Education Union said "The government's plans on reopening schools since they were first produced on 12 May have been changed 41 times, and that's because they constantly had to be revised as things they'd forgotten, things they didn't know, things they got wrong, have been added in."

I think that very much depends on what the changes were and if they were highlighted. Imagine an overall document on school management that says within it there will be appendices issued over the next week covering these 10 specific areas where special considerations apply, followed by a list including things like science laboratories, contact sports, changing rooms and so on. I would not personally consider the appearance of those anticipated appendices changes. On the other hand, if the same appendices appeared with no form of warning they were planned, it does look very much as if they have only arisen because after release of the documents someone said "What about science labs?"

Ok, got that off my chest. Normal opinions will resume shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Nigel, I made a mistake when I typed PM I should have typed MP.

I should have also have stated that he is a conservative who normally toes the party line so for him to reply "I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post" was quite startling.

Well done him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:12 AM

"toes the party line "
Don't know i anybody's been watching arch-Thatcherite Michael Portillo's stunning exposé of Britain's ruthless exploitation of the Colonial Empire, especially the Indian sub-continent
Don't think I've ever seen such a trip along The Road to Damascus - already got the "Outraged from the Atheneum" keyboards catching fire
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:14 AM

Those two 'ifs', Nigel. That he went to Durham and back is indisputable. The press reports on this are correct. As to if he was unsure he should have got advice. He is wrong either way. If he was sure he should not have gone. If wasn't sure and had got medical advice they would have told him not to go. The only thing that rings vaguely true in his cover up is that he has no friends to rely on. But even then he has enough money to pay for care.

Even if anyone can cast doubt that what he did was wrong he should still have the decency to resign. That is what both Neil Ferguson and Catherine Calderwood did.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 20 - 08:58 AM

Even if anyone can cast doubt that what he did was wrong he should still have the decency to resign.

Errrrmm, he’s a Tory - aren’t ‘decency’ and ‘Tory’ an oxymoron?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 May 20 - 09:16 AM

Caesar's handler, too, should be above reproach?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 11:03 AM

The "test test" rubbish should have been enough to kick him out on his ares on two counts - on breaking his party' own guidelines and on driving that didtance whe n his eyes were playing up
If there was a lw about treating the British people with contempt, he be banged up in the Tower of London years ago with Johnson as a cellmate
There are now more unhappy Tory MPs over this matter than there were at the time of Johnson's Brexit 'Night of the Long Knives'
Some comfort, I suppose
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 01:12 PM

"he’s a Tory - aren’t ‘decency’ and ‘Tory’ an oxymoron?"

Definitely seems increasingly that way since dom/boris [Doris..???]
kicked out the softer centred tory wets......!!!


BWM - tories habitually resort to 'common sense' for various dodgy reasons..

It's the rest of us who conduct ourselves with 'common decency'...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 01:56 PM

Those two 'ifs', Nigel. That he went to Durham and back is indisputable. The press reports on this are correct. As to if he was unsure he should have got advice. He is wrong either way. If he was sure he should not have gone. If wasn't sure and had got medical advice they would have told him not to go.

The first 'If' was about the accuracy of the press reports (plural), not whether he went to Durham, which was not denied. There were multiple press reports. Not all were substantiated.
As to advice, the comment was about what he should have done if he was unsure. By his own description, he knew what the restrictions were, and believed he was covered by them. In that case, he was not unsure, and no further reference to a 'higher authority' was required.
The response to Raggytash's email is carefully worded. It is a shame others aren't worded so carefully.

And, before anyone asks, I also think Cummings should have gone by now, either by his own decision, or by Boris'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 02:08 PM

Nigel - if you've not already watched it,
you might enjoy a 25 min Financial Times video dissection of cumming's
"I'm innocent, Guv.." statement..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0tWyhkoP5c

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 20 - 02:20 PM

Just smoke and mirrors to divert us from the real issue then, Nigel. Even though you agree we are right. Like saying "yes, sticking a hot poker up someone's arse is wrong but the correct word is rectum". Come on, everyone knows he was wrong. What does it matter how it is phrased?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:17 PM

DtG - you might find out in the video I just suggested to Nigel..

Correct selection of precise words can make all the difference.

We can take the P out of "pedantry" [mudcat pedants - no not literally - "edantry"..???],

but some privileged elite folks make a lucrative career out of it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:22 PM

Cummings was instrumental in arriving at those restrictions - Johnson's risking his Party's future indicates that he is unable to envisage a future without Cummings's guidance
If a major architect of these guidlines doesn't understand them how on earth can anyone expect the public, with all the contradictory policies that have been put forward and withdrawn, be expected to
This in another excuse Nigel
Where does diving thirty miles to "test my eyes" fit into all this ?
Utter nonsense

Over thirty major cities in the US are now experiencing violent civil disorder after the murder of a black citizen
The U.S. like all countries, is facing massive economic problems once things 'normalise'
America is on of the major alternative trading nations to Europe when Brexit is finalised - is it the future 'safe pair of trading hands' Britain needs to "stand on her own two feet"?
If not - who ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 04:44 AM

Where does diving thirty miles to "test my eyes" fit into all this ?
That is why I agree that he should be gone.

Driving 260 miles to protect your child I fully understand, and , were I in a similar position, I might copy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 05:09 AM

"That is why I agree that he should be gone."
A little more than that Nigel
Your leader needs to answer why he was ever defended after making what was more than an error
Your party is slipping down the charts rapidly - no harm in that - but public confidence in how this whole affair has been thrown into utter confusion by this and far more us-and-them farcical approaches to this pandemic
More than Cummings have to go now - or at lest, justify their actions
A fine mess he's got you Tories in Nigel
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 06:04 AM

”A fine mess he's got you Tories in“

Not just ‘you Tories’ Jim - I wouldn’t give a FF if it was only Tories who had been dropped in the proverbial by Dom & Dumber, in fact I’d celebrate. But the fact is that they’ve dropped everyone in a pile of steaming ordure, because they are interested only in one thing - the Tories’ God, money. And their every move has been designed to protect the money at the cost of human lives.

It’s exactly what you get when you vote on the basis of an individual ‘personality politician’, and a couple of three-word slogans.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 07:30 AM

Sorry Nigel driving 260 miles does not protect the child.

Driving 260 miles leaves the child in very close proximity for several hours to the woman who is suffering from the virus.

A much more sensible approach would be to place the sufferer in one bedroom and instruct the child not to go into that room.

Now guess which is more likely to the child contracting the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 07:32 AM

Posted before checking the last line should have read:

"Now guess which is more likely to result in the child contracting the virus"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:01 AM

He knows that, Raggy, but Tory supporters will defend the indefensible until their last breath. It’s down to the constant feeding of their prejudices that Tory propaganda subjects them to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

" in fact I’d celebrate"
Me too if the situation were different
The country ids in chaos of this verus with a Govenment - I hate to thin what would happen if big business or populism took the reins
This lot have to be forced to do the right thing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:38 AM

Sorry Nigel driving 260 miles does not protect the child.
Driving 260 miles leaves the child in very close proximity for several hours to the woman who is suffering from the virus.
A much more sensible approach would be to place the sufferer in one bedroom and instruct the child not to go into that room.
Now guess which is more likely to the child contracting the virus.

So far, so sensible. But if Cummings is also going down with it, who will look after the child (with no contact). He had family in Durham who would do this, and drove while he could. I still understand his actions in going to Durham. If he'd stopped there, there may not have been so many complaints.

The whole subject of Cummings is distracting too much from the actions needed to deal with the virus.

Maybe "Ooh, look Cummings" is getting to be the equivalent of "Ooh look, Labour antisemitism".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:47 AM

The whole subject of Cummings is distracting too much from the actions needed to deal with the virus.

Maybe "Ooh, look Cummings" is getting to be the equivalent of "Ooh look, Labour antisemitism".

True, but it would be easily solved if Cummings was no longer in post. In fact, it is keeping him in post as long as they have that have caused so many difficulties.

"If it were done, when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly" if memory serves.

As it is, if Cummings left today the first question to, for example, Grant Shapps would be "Well, do you still think his behaviour was right?" They have tarnished many members of the cabinet with this determination to defend him. Johnson less than many others, as it happens, because he has usually put a sneaky caveat on his support if you look closely enough.

I accept it is a really uncomfortable position for the Government, but being uncomfortable is hardly enough justification to let it drop. After all, we learnt on Friday that Johnson rarely reads the scientific papers produced by SAGE, relying on summaries produced, we assume, by the observers from the Government ... oh, look, Cummings again!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:54 AM

Cummings has two young nieces up north (17 and 20) who both showed willing to look after the child if the need had arisen. As I see it, it would have been within the guidelines to move them to London (travel is allowed to help a vulnerable person...). That way, at least no infected persons would have been swanning half way across Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 09:01 AM

A lie to far?

I do hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 09:46 AM

Sorry Nigel, I am not buying that.

Cummings put a young child in a car, a very confined space, with a known sufferer for several hours.

He travelled 260 miles to his parents house. Now I am guessing as he is aged 48 that his parents will at least be in their late 60's or early to mid 70's. That is they are people classed as being vulnerable.

So not only did he put his child in jeopardy he also put his parents in jeopardy.

No if's, no but's, no maybe's.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:01 AM

Sorry Nigel, I am not buying that.
That's ok. I'm not selling anything.

Cummings put a young child in a car, a very confined space, with a known sufferer for several hours.
Rather than staying at home with that same sufferer.

He travelled 260 miles to his parents house. Now I am guessing as he is aged 48 that his parents will at least be in their late 60's or early to mid 70's. That is they are people classed as being vulnerable.
Not to stay 'with' his parents, and the intended carers for his child (as mentioned by Steve) were young nieces.

So not only did he put his child in jeopardy he also put his parents in jeopardy.
Only if they (any of them) were making close contact with those elderly parents.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:13 AM

No, I don't buy it either. According to the latest figures there as 274,762 cases. I reckon there must be at least one thousand people in that lot who are a couple with a child of a similar age.

Why did few of those not do the same as Cummings, as far as we can tell? (There is no evidence from police reports, for example, that they did, and the reports of emails that MPs received seems confirm that.)

Anecdotally, the people who were in that position that I know arranged local food deliveries and so on from help groups. I have several relatives who do those deliveries in their local area.

For me, it is not enough to say why Cummings did that. You also need to address why so many people in the same position did not. In some cases, it is reported that they were explicitly told by NHS 111 they could not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:24 AM

Except we are supposed to believe one of the most powerful,
vitally important men in our nation,
could not have phoned his employer's office,
or any of his family's network of elite London social circle,
to arrange emergency professional child care while his family stayed at home in London...!!!?????

The correct word for this is.. bollocks...!!!!!!!!!!

How thick does this govt think we all are...????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:55 AM

How thick does this govt think we all are...????

For some, is there any limit?
You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. (Lincoln?)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:59 AM

If they're thick enough to have voted boris in power,
they'll believe any old bollocks he mumbles out at 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:24 AM

"For some, is there any limit?"
I think that pretty well reflects the ontempt your Party has for the electorate
People vove based on the information they are given - as that information is overwhelmingly filtered through a right wing, highly manipulated media and what tit-bits of information the establishment sees fit to let us have, intelligent decisions are hardly likely
Brexit was typical of that situation
Had not the business establishment and the press not been divided on the issue as well as the politicians themselves, Brexit would have been a clear winner rather than the pitiful minority of the whole population it was
Thos in charge have now realised that and have unleashed the highly toxic Populist genii out of the bottle
Dangerous days in so many ways (I'm a poet and didn't know it)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:26 AM

At the moment the two top most plausible alternatives
to Doris's 'truthful account:..

are:

A] cummings panicked and fled London in sheer every man for himself terror,
like a cowardly 'boo hiss villain' in a disaster movie..

B] The trip up north is a poorly contrived cover story hiding nefarious corrupt business dealings
on behalf of Doris's evil international billionaire corporate backers...

One day will proper old fashioned honest investigative journalism
ever expose
who Doris is really working for to control Britain...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:33 AM

" Brexit would have been a clear winner rather than the pitiful minority of the whole population it was"

Really? I don't think so. Of course Brexit might well have been a winner but only a "pitiful minority of the whole population" I take it that you would have found that acceptable?

"If they're thick enough to have voted boris in power" So anyone who votes for a different party than the one you support is either thick or brainwashed or deluded etc etc

Good to see that the "four legs good, two legs bad" outlook is still going strong on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM

""If they're thick enough to have voted boris in power" So anyone who votes for a different party than the one you support is either thick or brainwashed or deluded etc etc"

That'a a good example of how this argument tactic is deployed by far right internet social media shills...

I said nothing about anyone voting for a political party.
But everything about the populist cult of personality
taking over our govt and politics..

Just like in Europe 80 odd years ago..

Now, they were thick enough to vote for BORIS..


The tory party were desperately cynical to put boris up as their prime contender,
knowing full well the populist vote would be for him as an individual charismatic 'celebrity' personality.

Folks who would never before stoop to vote conservative, did fall for the charms of boris..

Next general election we will find out if the conservative party relied too heavily on the boris fan club factor...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 12:01 PM

I think Boris's fan club has already fled, PFR. His approval rating dropped a massive amount over the last few days. It's one thing we have to thank Cummings for :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM

No doubt some did vote for Boris but then I would imagine that some voted for Corbyn.

Personally I think Boris and/or the Tory party gathered a fair few of their votes from Brexit supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

"Really? I don't think so"
The majority tp leave was less than 4%
30% od the population did not vote
Asa far as the leavers and the stoppers were concerned the result was a forgone conclusion tight up to the announcement - that the remainers would win - nobody can deny that the result was a surprise - even farage did not expect to win - go look at the photographs as the result was announced
The Brexiteeers had every reason to go to the polls - the remainers had every reason not to bother as staying was a done deal
Yes - pitiful minority just about sums it up
I'm afraid
If that hadn't been the case the Tories would not have fought so hard against a second referendum
It really isnn't rocket science R. D.
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 01:54 PM

London has now joined in the demonstrations against the American killing and it seems to have extended to attacking Trump's demand that more force be used against the protesters
He seems to be on the point of declaring martial law in Washington
Wonder which way Boris will jump
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

The right wing media will demonise and marginalise any protests
as "militant red mob violence and looting"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 02:47 PM

Buzzfeed: We’re Keeping A Running List Of Hoaxes And Misleading Posts About The Nationwide Police Brutality Protests.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:53 AM

Without Iains as a provocateur posting has slowed down here a bit

Proof that provoking works

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM

Going back to Jim's post on the Brexit Referendum

According to wiki the turnout for the 2016 referendum was 72.21 % of registered voters and 65.38 % of people of voting age

That does compare favourably with the last 6 general election turnouts of 59.4%, 61.4 %, 65.1 % , 66.1 %, 68/7 % and 67.3 %

Personally I am not in favour of referendums under our present set up. Even the referendum of 1975 was non-binding. I am not sure how it would have gone down if the government had ignored that result at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

Or to put it another way, 17 million people dragged 66 million people out of the EU. That's an irrevocable change that should have required a super-majority and a minimum turnout for it to pass. Neither of those barriers that we true democrats were asking for (typically a two-thirds majority with a minimum 75% turnout) were crossed. Comparing the result with general elections is invidious. Election results are reversible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:05 AM

A debate - and shortly a vote - is under way in Parliament on whether to allow MPs who are legally required to isolate to vote remotely, or whether the absurd looking 'Alton Towers' ((c) various MPs) queueing system must be used for voting.

I have no doubt a lot of Tories will vote to use the JRM-approved queues, but don't think they have considered what that means. A lot of them are happy to skip the debates and nip down to the lobbies for 5 minutes three or four times a day to cast their vote. That is quite and ego-stroking of their power.

Queueing for an hour a time, so maybe half a day spent standing in line is another matter.

Between these, I would expect the number of MPs actually voting on things over the next month or two to be substantially less than average. And, to me, that damages Parliamentary authority far more than where people are when they vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM

General elections have become things you do out of habit rather than expectation
Everybody knows it is an exercise for the dog to the polling booth rather than a hope that the politicians would break the habit of a lifetime by carrying out what they promised before the election
Leaving Europe should have pushed the percentages into the 90s rather than wavering around the lower seventies
Elections are now won on negative promises - this time, getting "Johnny Foreigner' off our backs", captured perfectly by Farage's 'Son of Rivers of Blood' poster - a policy that disgraced its former architect out of politics because he was an embarrassment even to a right-wing party with its roots in racism like yours
Referenda are far more democratic than General Elections have become in Britain - they have made th world a better place for homodexuals, for women and hopefully, for the homeless in the near future
For the former two, see the discrepencies beween the Irish Republic and the little bit of Ieland that still prtends to be British in the N.E of this country (even that is teetering on the point of cjange as the Empire continues to crumble to dust)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:23 AM

Or to put it another way, 17 million people dragged 66 million people out of the EU. That's an irrevocable change that should have required a super-majority and a minimum turnout for it to pass. Neither of those barriers that we **true democrats** were asking for (typically a two-thirds majority with a minimum 75% turnout) were crossed. Comparing the result with general elections is invidious. Election results are reversible.

To be consistent, you should believe the same for the 1975 referendum, for which the turnout was only 64%. Then (under your requirements) there would have been no need for a referendum to get us out, as we would not have confirmed our membership in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:37 AM

The Westminster Governments can hardly have been unaware of such concerns. The referendum on Scottish Independence in 1979 required support of more than 40% of the electorate for any Constitutional change to be effected. Sometimes, it seems, the rules might just possibly be modified in a plausibly defensible way, in order to make the result desired by some just that bit more likely.
How fondly I remember our Own Dear Queen intoning how she could not forget that she was crowned Queen "of a United Kingdom", carefully negotiating the requirement to keep apart from politics. At least she didn't say using bleach might keep you safe from the Hielan' Midgies.

Wonder which Tory sycophants will be fast-tracked to "bracket" The Bould Boris. Looks or voice?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:49 AM

Better "majority of" rather than "support of".
("Bracket", I believe, was originally coined when television coverage of Parliament began in Canada, and politicians crowded around the senior ministers either to get their faces seen by their constituents, or to disguise the fact that the chamber was half-empty

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

Downing Street to scrap weekend briefings due to 'low ratings'

Downing Street is to scrap ministerial coronavirus briefings at the weekend, blaming poor TV viewing figures, writes Andrew Woodcock.
The move comes after ministers were blasted by the UK’s statistics watchdog for “misleading” use of figures on Cover-19 testing at the daily briefings.

====

And here I was assuming the point was to give information about the virus, rather than 'ratings'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:33 AM

In 1975 17,378,581 out of a population of 56.23 million, said they thought that the UK should remain in the EC (as was)

Again, I am not a fan of referendums. The Tories allowed themselves to be sucked into it, one of the reasons being they were worried by Farage.

I always thought it would be close and I never thought it was going to be an easy result for the remain side. It is something that split the country and continues to do so. If we had another referendum now I would expect a close result again. I personally do not think that many people would change their vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

Well I could agree with you, Nigel. I would just say that a decision to join is neither irrevocable nor black-and-white (we could join with conditions, as indeed we did, and Mrs Thatcher strained to maintain that exceptionalism, for example). The decision to leave was irrevocable and meant that there were no terms we could dictate, as we are now finding. We might have been told that there were all sorts of things we can now control. Sadly, it wasn't really true, was it? One little virus...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:49 AM

"The Tories allowed themselves to be sucked into it, one of the reasons being they were worried by Farage"
The Tories were led by the nose by Farage and the benefitted from allowing him to play the race card
That particular stunt is about to hit the fan when those protesting now about the killing in America follw the US lead and make it about the increasing level of racism in British society - Brexit has produced a 'dog returning to its vomit' scenario
In addition, an inevitably economically crippled U. S. is no longer going to even pretend to fill the gap leaving Europe has left
People were always ready to change their vote - that's why it was never allowed as an option once the consequences of leaving became clear
Britain did well from Europe and would have done a damn sight better if it had entered in the spirit of co-operation rather than wanting to have everything their own way - a legacy of Empire
The worst aspect of Brexit has been Johnson himself, a racist misogynist, openly lying (before the cameras even) buffoon not even taken seriously by his own party and happily prepared to drop Britain in the pocket of the most dangerous madman on the planet
One of his only positive contributions has been turn the Tory Party into a scrap between two factions - unfortunately, this has happened when Britain desperately needs a united front against a major pandemic - not exactly good timing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:52 AM

Forgot to add that I was rather touched when Everton announced they would be offering a gesture of support to the anti racist demonstrations in the U.S.
Pity it was The Blues, but you can't have everything :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:21 AM

one little virus to be conveniently blamed for the national economic disaster
'we' all anticipated brexit might cause...

..a bit like sneakily hiding a few murder victims under a pile of pandemic deaths in a mass grave...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

The last vote took 93 minutes, because MPs had to queue up. If there are four or five votes in a day, that is 3 hours or more queuing, with a section of this in in the rain if the weather is bad.

I don't believe MPs will do this. They will simply not vote, just like my MP last night. Maybe he is self isolating, or may he could not be bothered, I don't know.   But either way, this reduces representation in Parliament significantly.

Warning: Germany reference coming up, but at least it is not the usual ones.

One thing I never really understood about the Enabling Act in Germany in 1933 is why the members of Parliament voted to give themselves less power: in normal circumstance that seems counter-intuitive. But in the circumstances we are in, MPs are also voting to give themselves less power, albeit less directly. Basically, each MP who voted for this said if they have to go into isolation, they want their constituency to be unrepresented.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM

Why are no women taking part in decision making for lockdown?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

we'd be better of if Patel was involved...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

The last vote took 93 minutes, because MPs had to queue up. If there are four or five votes in a day, that is 3 hours or more queuing

Sorry for the odd maths in that. The first vote on the amendment took 40 minutes, so I took that into account in saying 3 or more hours. Obviously at around 1.5 hours each you do not need four or five to reach 3 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:27 PM

John Crace, as ever, telling it exactly like it is about Johnson’s latest PMQs disaster. Sir Keir Starmer’s demolition of the blustering, arm-waving intellectually-lightweight Johnson - even on a day when Starmer wasn’t at his usual best - was so complete, I almost felt sorry for Johnson. Almost.

Johnson, knowing he was a beaten man before he even stepped up to face Starmer, did his usual Blame-Shifting act, trying to lay his totally inept handling of the Covid-19 crisis at Labour’s door. And he steadfastly refused to condemn Agent Orange for his disastrous handling of the George Floyd murder and its aftermath.

How much longer can Johnson keep getting away with his constant failures?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM

Two very good telly reports tonight. Dispatches on Channel 4 gave an excoriating account of this government's inept path through this crisis, and Katie Razzall's report on Newsnight was a devastating condemnation by facts of this government's murderous care home policy. And murderous is not too strong a word.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:50 AM

The tale of Alok Sharma will 'have legs' (as they say) if he is confirmed as positive.

If Parliamentarians do not self-isolate after contact with him, it will be the 'one rule for us and one for you' all over again.   If they do, it will once again call the reopening into question - in fact, it could even be necessary to close it again. Then there is the fact that all the MPs are now traipsing back back to their constituencies, potentially carrying the infection, which will also question the 'travel as far as you like for work and exercise' decisions.

Then there is the effectiveness of 'track and trace' with him as a test case.

Moreover, because he was ill so publicly, it cannot be hushed up as some other cases have been. All in all, if he does test positive, yet another headache for the government.

And, given how visible and relatively sudden the symptoms were, if he does not test positive there might be questions about whether the tests are reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7zkejgYSlg

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM

26 Jun 2017 - Michael Gove says 'no' to chlorinated chicken
The Environment Secretary Michael Gove has said chickens that have been washed in chlorine will not be allowed in the UK as part of any trade deal, once the UK leaves the European Union.

4 June 2020 - Government ready to open British markets to chlorinated chicken for US trade deal"

Let's not get into arguments about whether it is 'safe' or not, and focus on how this is yet another broken commitment.

If we do have to widen it, let's ask for the slightest evidence their promises on the NHS should be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:26 AM

I buy lots and lots of chicken, always free-range. It's always British. Not that I particularly look for British either. I'm slightly baffled by the idea that we need to import any chicken. Maybe I don't look hard enough...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM

I have a concern about the chicken angle, I must admit. It is just symbolic of the difference in food standards rather than itself key: banning chicken imports but allowing everything else would not do. I suspect we might end up with such a deal, and then in a decade or so get rid of the "anomaly" in the trade agreement mentioning chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

We buy whatever deals we can afford on any day in Tesco,
we're that skint even on the wife's senior teacher salary..

Our informed education and knowldege about quality healthy foods is usless,
when we ain't got the £££s..

There's too many folks much worse off than us..
we're all the ones at risk from tory lies
about 'not' selling out food and health standards to trump's gangster mob...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 04:49 AM

Liz Gerrard, in Thursday’s ‘New European’, telling the sorry tale of how we are being taken for fools by The Johnson Gang.

Those of us whe haven’t fallen for the Right’s propaganda, or their three-word slogans, big red buses etc. already know it, but it doesn’t hurt to make the point, very eloquently, once more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

Look! Labour antisemitism!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:50 AM

;-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:32 AM

Priti Patel, defender of Cummings's driveabouts up country and taking a risk by allowin people to full London Tube trains fro the sake of the economy, has urged people not to attend the demonstrations against racism that are now taking place all over the planet; some lves matter, some don't with some people
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:55 AM

It’s the money, follow the money, it’s always the money with the Nasty Greedy Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

Laarge 'Black Lives Matter' demonstrations all over Britain despite Patel's warning
Thousands packed into Parliament Square them marched to the American Embassy - most appeared to be wearing protective masks - they were being handed out by stewards
Makes you proud
Let's see what Johnson and Patel have to say about the murder
A large demonstration in Australia which has been extended to include Aboriginal rights
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

Whilst I have every empathy with the marchers I am afraid there will be a very high price to be paid for these gatherings.

I suspect that some people on the marches will contract the virus because of their attendance and that some of those people will die.

Like I suggest a very high price.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Raggy - the foolhardy bravado of young idealistic protesters..

I'm always conflicted in my thoughts about the effectiveness of mass demonstrations......

..but as our boldly coloured Rock Against Racism badges
proudly sloganised 40 odd years ago - when I was 18..

"Black and White, UNITE and FIGHT...".....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM

..btw.. does Priti Patel's thickly plastered glamorous make-up count as a protective mask...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

Laarge 'Black Lives Matter' demonstrations all over Britain despite Patel's warning
. . .
Let's see what Johnson and Patel have to say about the murder

Boris Johnson has already commented: Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said is appalled and sickened by the death of George Floyd, and that his message to people in the US is that "racist violence has no place in our society". from BBC, Here

Also Priti Patel has commented (by Twitter) Just received update from
@metpoliceuk
. Thanked officers & expressed my concern at small number of reports of violence.

I'm sickened at George Floyd's death. But protests must be peaceful & in accordance with social distancing rules. from Here

So to suggest that we still await comments from them is a little disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:23 PM

Nigel - so.. do we all have to follow twitter by the minute now..

.. and how many accounts should be subscribed to,
so as to stay on top of breaking important PR twitterings...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:27 PM

No, no need to follow Twitter at all.
I read Jim's post as suggesting that he believed that Johnson & Patel had not commented on the murder, so I just did a quick search to put the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:38 PM

Nigel - Personally, I'm more inclined to believe Jim states what he actually honestly believes,
than any weaselly platitudes from boris and patel...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:27 PM

Lip service by both - especially by Patel
Expressing regret is like the automatic condolences meted out by people who neither knew nor cared about the deceased
THese are representative of the British peeople, Johnson has a track record fro the racism that is being protested about and Patel orders the people not to be part of the world protest because of Covid
Both - both of these hypocritical bastards have fought tooth and nail to protect the prickeen who flouted his own ******
rules on Covid
You can have my apology Nigel - if you don't mind waiting till Hell freezes over
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

AN ATERTHOUGHT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM

I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before. If there is a second wave, we will conveniently forget the crowded beaches of Bournemouth, Durdle Door and the rest. It will all be blamed "on these blacks meeting in large crowds at the height of the virus." And we the government 'warned them not to because of the risk of spreading the virus.' It looks to me like this is getting the government off a very nasty hook and putting the blame for a second wave with thousands of deaths on 'the blacks'. Which will hardly help resolve institutionalised racism.

I would like to say I had a neat answer to the dilemma of whether to take part in a justified protest like this or not given the virus, but I don't. The only sorts of thing I can think of are very unconventional, like a totally silent slow march with everyone two or three metres apart, but how you organise and manage that I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:22 AM

"I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before."
That is the excuse Priti Patel gave for not supporting the march
Anything we do now is a risk - London tube trains appear to be back to their 'cattle truck' status, schools are returning shortly, despite the fact it has been admitted that it is impossible to get children to 'social distance', workers who are unable to work at home have to go back to their workplace are risking their jobs if they refuse to go into work...
The world is, for the first time, on it's feet demanding rights for Blacks and the end to institutional murder
Trump and his puppets are hoping this "terrorism on the streets" will blow over and are using the pandemic to blunt its obviously growing effect (it wouldn't surprise me if Don the Dick hadn't 'found God' for a little divine backup
Going for the newspaper if a risk at present - as far as I'm concerned, some risks are worth taking - I wouldn't be without my daily Codeword and I wouldn't ak people to do without their rights
INTERESTING SNIPPET
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:44 AM

That's what I said "I would like to say I had a neat answer to the dilemma of whether to take part in a justified protest like this or not given the virus, but I don't", Jim. You and I know that the racists would love to put all the blame for a second wave on these protestors, and I have no doubt they will do everything they can to do that. I can see that making racism worse.

That is not to say the protests should not happen. The causes are just as valid as they would be if there was no virus. But given we know governments are very practiced at completely ignoring demonstrations, maybe we need to think long and hard about the best way to do it. Which is why I suggested one possibility could be a funeral march of thousands, long, slow, silent and socially distanced. I don't know how you organise that. But I think it could be more impactful than a "standard" protest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 05:48 AM

"You and I know that the racists would love to put all the blame for a second wave on these protestors,"D' YOU RECKON ?
They'd get away with that one, wouldn't they ?
I don't think
I suggest you read the predictions by the Yanks that these demos will peter out without having achieved anything
I think they are bigger than that
Bring 'em on, I say
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM

Just doing a few 'back of the envelope' calculations, here.

Matt Hancock said last week and also today on the Andrew Marr Show, that there is around 1 person in a 1000 infected at the moment. If that is true, and it is also true that there were 'tens of thousands' in the marches, it is reasonable to assume a few tens of people infected in the march. There are problems with that assumption, because it assumes a uniform spread of infections, but it will do as a starting point.

A protest is an unusual situation, because of close contact with a lot of people you don't know for a long time, but it is also outside. The R rate will not be the 1-ish of the lockdown, nor will it be 3 to 4 of 'normal circumstances': I would guess it may be several times higher - 10 or more.

So we have a rough guess that this might cause say 300 additional infections initially. If they have an R of around 1 when they get home, this is no worse than the infection rate around the end of May. (June 5th reported as 1557 per day, 2095 on May 29th)

So not negligible by any means, but it should be manageable. More of an unknown is how this is altered because we are relaxing other restrictions at the same time. Of the two, I would expect the relaxations to be more significant simply because we are talking of around 70 million people rather than a few tens of thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 02:59 AM

Priorities Mac - if this surge in opposition is put on the long finger, that's where it will remain - the urgent issue that spiked an already simmering problem by being used for Brexit will continue to escalate if the ball is dropped now
It is sickening to here the pratings of comfortably well-off Asians like Mad Maggie Patel telin people these demonstrations are not safe, then switching over to hear another government or business spokesmen urging to "take the risk, ignore the advice of the experts, send the kids back to school and clamber onto the crammed buses and tubes and go back to work for the sake of Britain's future
I hard a new (to me) word yesterday, from a business spokesman - "It's time we started to ignore the advice of these MEDOCRATS"
These heartening demonstrations are putting the heart that was torn out of Britain by shites like Farage, back into Britain - it should be encoraged to keep beating
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:06 AM

There's a very relevant article by Tony Benn circulating. I particularly like the final sentence of this:

Now, Wilberforce was a very interesting man. He was a Conservative, he supported Pitt, he voted for the Combination Act which made it a criminal offence for more than three people to get together to call for a trade union or political reform, and then he became a Christian and he was stirred by the injustice of it and campaigned, and that’s what we’re celebrating this year, the abolition of the slave trade. And, might I add, not the abolition of slavery, don’t think that Wilberforce brought about the abolition of slavery but only the slave trade.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM

I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before. If there is a second wave, we will conveniently forget the crowded beaches of Bournemouth, Durdle Door and the rest. It will all be blamed "on these blacks meeting in large crowds at the height of the virus."

A comment which cheerfully ignores the fact that a good percentage of those protesting were 'white'. Anyone looking at photos of the protests, and the BBC footage, will see that quite clearly. Of course, it may be a little obscured by the fact that all those chosen for interview on last night's (BBC) news programmes were from ethnic minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:45 AM

"a good percentage of those protesting were 'white'."
One of the most hopeful aspects of this - that won't stop bumwipes like the Daily Heil making it a black thingy - when has it ever ?
Several aitcles and photos this morning of the slave-owner's statue being daubed with paint and thrown into Bristol Harbour - by white and black protesters - makes the heart skip
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM

Several aitcles and photos this morning of the slave-owner's statue being daubed with paint and thrown into Bristol Harbour - by white and black protesters - makes the heart skip
Jim
It might make your heart skip. I see it as vandalism perpetrated under the cover of supposedly peaceful protest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM

No, Nigel, that did not escape me, and I fully agree that the inclusiveness is a sign of hope.

But I am talking about how it will be presented if we have a second wave. I could, of course, be entirely wrong - it has been known! - but we will have to wait and see. All I can go on so far is the commentary I have seen elsewhere 'below the line' on press articles and similar, and that makes me suspect those who are black may well be blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM

re that statue going down. i thought it was great - just as a visible, symbolic sign of legitimate protest. very seldom do we get to witness something that's positive for people - a cheering wee victory! (i'm reminded of the heartwarming story of margaret thatcher and a cricket bat) if we call this a crime - how does it compare to the crimes of the slave owners who never lived to stand trial or face the consequences of their actions - and got a statue? obviously.

apparently, the statue will be placed in a museum and a history written of the guy's significance to Bristol and to black history. The mayor also explained that dumping the statue in the river is now part of colston's and Bristol's history - so for once the story is not written by and for rich and powerful white men.

juat a wee revolutionary moment - everyone learns and everyone wins!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

"I see it as vandalism"
And I see it as a long-overdue recognition of a truly evil past
THese statues weren't put up for dogs to piss upon, though it might have been a good use for them
I went home to Liverpool after a longish gap was a little bemused to be taken by my sisters to the docks where I had served my apprenticeship
We went to a magnificent Slavery Museum built on the spot where the bidding had once taken place - I new it as a storage shed for the unloaded ships
I didn't feel that to be vandalisation
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

Good to see that you're one of the huffers and puffers, true to form I'd say, who I referred to in my post on the Black Lives thread, Nigel. If they stick the thing in a museum, hopefully with a full explanation of the man's horrid part in the slave trade, I hope they leave the graffiti on it. For the record, I'm fully with Pete and the Bristol protesters on this.

The Liverpool museum seemed to me to be a frank confronting by the city of the most shameful episode in its past, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 02:48 AM

A small step in the right direction Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:46 AM

‘News thump’, making clear Johnson’s hypocrisy when he criticises the use of violence to achieve an aim.

And before any nitpickers are tempted to wade in, I know it’s not a ‘real’ news site, but it makes a valid point, in a humorous way, that a big, fat, blustering, clueless buffoon in a glasshouse shouldn’t throw stones. It’s called ‘satire’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:15 AM

That's "satire"? Well, maybe to an American readership.
That's not just a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:01 AM

The Tory Times reports this morning that The Tory Party knowingly accepted a £50,000 election donation from a pharmaceutical tax fraudster who ripped off the NHS for at least £14m (it cost him £15m to settle the case)
Basically, the last Government came to power at the expense of sick Britons who wre given Theresa May as a receipt.
It's comforting to know that the Briish people have Parliamentary Democracy to keep them warm on cold nights - innit?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

And before any nitpickers are tempted to wade in, I know it’s not a ‘real’ news site, but it makes a valid point, in a humorous way, that a big, fat, blustering, clueless buffoon in a glasshouse shouldn’t throw stones. It’s called ‘satire’.

No, it's not satire. It's bollocks.
So called 'satirical' sites can say what they want, and claim it's 'satire'. It doesn't need to contain a shred of truth. I selected a small part of the Johnson 'quote': Well, except when you're using it to put the frighteners on a journalist who is investigating things you don't want them to and put it into Google. Surprise surprise, the only 'hit' I got was the Newsthump article itself. If they are going to back up any comments they make by using invented quotes then they are not worth linking to or quoting. Unless by someone who is easily fooled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM

Er, the story is true, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:13 AM

According to Wikipedia: During a telephone call in 1990, Guppy asked Boris Johnson (then a journalist at The Telegraph) to provide the home address of News of the World journalist Stuart Collier. Collier had been making enquiries into Guppy's background, and in response, Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995.

There are certainly lots of references to the story in the papers from that time. I am confident if you searched long and hard enough we would someone somewhere has transcribed the exact words Johnson used.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM

prove it

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:16 AM

On Jim's story, from The Times:
The Conservative Party accepted a £50,000 donation from a pharmaceutical boss involved in price gouging the NHS, The Times can report.
Amit Patel, who accepted a five-year ban last week from standing as a director for breaking competition law, donated the money during the June 2017 general election campaign led by Theresa May. The donation was made a year after The Times named Auden Mckenzie, the company Mr Patel had founded, as being among several businesses that had hugely increased the prices of old drugs.
The companies had been able to do so by exploiting a loophole in NHS pricing rules that meant drugs were no longer subject to a profit cap if they were “debranded” and sold under a generic name.

This form of price-gouging is common, and a last chance for the drug companies to make money from their drug research.
The drugs had been 'debranded' which means that their patents had expired. A more savvy government, or competitor business, could have 'reverse engineered' the drugs and competed on price, saving the NHS a large sum. If you're the sole provider of a specific drug then you have a monopoly. Once the drug is a 'generic' then the action of the free market comes into play, and the business that can provide a (suitably tested) version of the same drug at a better price will become the main supplier.

For a fuller treatment of this scam see Prescriber

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:21 AM

Boris Johnson on Have I got news for you, talking about his chat with Darius

Boris and the Elephant Trap

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM
Er, the story is true, Nigel.

The story may be based on some facts, but inventing a quote, which may or may not reflect what was said at the time does not make the story 'true'.
Even according to DMcG's quote of Wiki: Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995.
The address was never given, and no attack happened. The Newsthump 'article' is a waste of space, and a waste of all our time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM

Wiki: "During a telephone call in 1990, Guppy asked Boris Johnson (then a journalist at The Telegraph) to provide the home address of News of the World journalist Stuart Collier. Collier had been making enquiries into Guppy's background, and in response, Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995."

And on the Guardian website (article by Simon Murphy, 14 July 2019, "A couple of black eyes..." Note the existence of a thoroughly incriminating transcript of a phone call between Guppy and Johnson, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM

It is worth listening to that "Have I got News for You" clip linked to below. It is notable that Johnson does not say he didn't give the address because it would have been wrong to do so, or that he felt it would risk an illegal action. The only reason he gives for not passing the address over was his incompetence as a journalist so he didn't know the address.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

"The address was never given, and no attack happened. The Newsthump 'article' is a waste of space, and a waste of all our time."

I am a tad surprised by your approach here Nigel.

It someone were to have a similar conversation about a terrorist attack but that attack never took place are you suggesting we should ignore that conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

I duplicated your wiki piece, DMcG. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

Meanwhile, back at the press conferences: no scientists present on Friday, none last night. Anyone care to place a bet for this evening?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:09 AM

As for "inventing quotes," it's what satirical websites such as Newsthump and Daily Mash do all the time. It's what Steve Bell does in his Guardian cartoons. We're supposed to read them in the knowledge that the kernel of the story is true but the surrounding embellishments are satirical - but also, possibly, instructive. We're not really meant to read them in Mr Spock mode.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM

"On Jim's story, from The Times:"
I'm grateful for the added information Nigel, but it hardly addresses the question
Your party came to power with the help of a donation from a criminal whose scam cost him £15m to get clear of
I realise that Britain is being defrauded by many such scammers but are the British people deserving of a Government who comes to power with the aid of dirty money defrauded from the N.H.S. ?
I wouldn't have thought so, but I don't live there any more
It's rather like the obvious Brexit fraudster who was let off the hook because there was 'not enough evidence to make it worthwhile pursuing the case'
There's a good old saying that has to apply to politicians - "Justice has to be seen to be done" otherwise those "not proven" can never be trusted
That's the way politics used to work
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:26 AM

that was a strange wee episode. when asked for proof that Boris Johnson and friend had the intention to attack a journalist and then that proof was supplied - that wasn't accepted. even when johnson admitted it and complained that he was stitched up. really? what more evidence do you require? and his whole attitude there is revealing in itself - with all the evidence of lying, evasivness and entitlement that we have come so familiar with.

surely anyone who may have voted for him or his party can now accept that you have a thoroughly disreputable and clueless eejit for a leader. or failing that - he's just a wrong 'un. i'd have thought that maybe conservative party supporters would be quietly looking to replace as soon as they can, for the good of the party if nothing else.

it's just sad for you and tragic for the rest of us that you have kicked out any MP who made sense and at least pretended to have the interests of the country at heart

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:48 AM

Watching Nigel the Bellydancing Nitpicker, wriggling and writhing in a desperate, and completely failed, attempt to (as usual for a Tory) defend the indefensible is even funnier than the Newsthump piece itself. Best laugh I’ve had for ages, made even better by its coming from a Tory Stooge.

The incident was documented, reported, the tape was played on TV and radio and, even better, The Bellydancing Nitpicker can listen to it here.

Bollocks? BOLLOCKS? WTF? And what a lovely bunch of people you pimp for, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:10 AM

Clever analogy from Raggytash, which set me thinking; some time back, hardly a week went by without the State Organ, BBC, reporting that a plot or two, planned by some Terrorist organisation or another, had been foiled by some official body or other just in the nick of time. All these nefarious types we've been reminded of so incessantly have been remarkably quiet over the last year, it seems; curious, since a time of confusion and distraction would seem to offer various advantages to law-breakers of all kinds.
Just for Americans, that might be Satire. Or maybe not....

ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:19 AM

The Government has announced that it has changed its mind and is cancelling the plan to let children return to school
A slight improvement on "Monday - whoops I meant Wednesday" I supposed
Must make a list of breweries not to go to piss-ups in !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM

The colston statue appalling vandalism thing...

If Banksy had staged the toppling and river dumping as a cheeky theatrical performance art event..

The tory press would be fawning all over it,
and estimating how many millions the rubbished statue would be worth at fine art auction...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:36 AM

Great to see that racist looter Cecil Rhodes is due for the chop in Oxford - who next THAT HIDEOUS MONSTROSITY IN WESTMINSTER MAYBE ?
CAN'T SEE WHY NOT, THE WAY HE TREATED THE COLONIALS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:12 AM

The problem with any statue - Colston, Rhodes, Churchill, Harris, or pretty much anyone at all - is that the statue is almost invariably idolising one aspect of their lives and ignoring all the rest. So there is good reason to have a statue of Churchill because of his role in WW2. But if you do, you should expect the Irish to remember the Black and Tans, the Australians Gallipoli, women his opposition to women's votes, India his role in partition, and so on. And it is right that you should learn these views are as valid as your own.

What the best response is will vary depending on the situation, but I find plaques and museums generally better than simply removing the references. In the case of the concert hall, for example, I would prefer a notice inside explaining the previous name and why it was changed, rather than just changing it. If it is not a problem for shipping, I would see little harm leaving Colston's statue where it is and adding a plaque telling the whole story, including Floyd and the events leading up to the removal of the statue. 'In the water adjacent to this plaque is a statue of ... "

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:36 AM

I posted this in response to Bonzo in the Black Lives Matter thread. I worry about making that thread, spurred by the murder of George Floyd, too anglocentric. I suppose my post belongs more here.

" Here's the thing about statues, Bonzo. The people who are represented by statues in public places are people who we are supposed to celebrate, who are supposed to have achieved great things. But the people who decide who's worthy of the accolade are generally the establishment. So the statues are put up, often with a little plaque telling us of the great achievements. Any plaque accompanying any statue of Churchill will say what a great war leader he was. What it won't tell us is that he was also a racist, a little Englander and an arch-misogynist who was responsible for the Dardanelles fiasco that killed tens of thousands of our young men (including my great uncle Jimmy, so call me biased). The statue of Colston in Bristol had four plaques depicting various heroic scenes, but one of them bore the words "Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city". Well he founded schools and almshouses and was generally a fine philanthropist (so was Jimmy Savile, I should like to remind you). What the plaque doesn't tell you was that he made his money to pay for those things via his slaving company, an enterprise that enslaved at least 100,000 people into misery and killed around 20,000 of them who were unceremoniously pitched overboard when they died. For years there has been argument in Bristol as to how the plaque should be reworded, but nothing has happened. There has also been a petition signed by tens of thousands to have the statue removed. No response to that either. Frustrating, innit.

So to those people who bleat that tearing down statues is destroying history, etc., I'd say that real history is a damn sight more honest than those statues which are essentially saying that the good that men do lives after them but the evil is oft interred with their bones. You'd take your child out of any school that proudly insisted on teaching history in that extremely partial way. It's a thoroughly disingenuous claim propagated by mostly people on the right. I've repeatedly asked about what you thought of Saddam's statue being torn down. I wonder what you might have thought if those huge street portraits of Mao or Stalin, confronting you round every corner, had been vandalised or torn down by protesters. They would have needed to be a damn sight braver than the Bristol protesters. And that's something to contemplate as well."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

I see that both the health and education secretaries are twisting the scientific advice excuses they have used for the last three months. The R rate is no longer important. 2 metres doesn't really mean 6' 6". What a shower. Just you watch, Covid-19 is about to be renamed cudley kitten syndrome and Boris has been instrumental in saving the galaxy while battling the evil European empire. And the idiots who believe the three word spin will continue to fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

"Churchill because of his role in WW2."
It needs to be remembered who these people were and what they stood for - all this individuals may have done some good but - as someone once said, "The evil that man do live after them" as well
The Churchill statue has been daubed with paint by the Welsh before now by people who remember his part in the 'Tonypandy Massacre'
I wasn't being serious about his statue - I was a wartime baby and have reason to be grateful to his role in WWI", but even so, as someone passionately committed to anti-fascism, I find it difficult to forget his support for the philosophy of supporting Hitler's Germany as "a bulwark against the creeping menace of Bolshevism"   
I regard Churchill's wartime contribution as reparation for helping support the rise of Nazism in the first place
These things are complicated - I'm sure you'll find statues to Leopold in Belgium - the imperial rubber entrepreneur who sent ten million Congolese to their deaths in pursuit of profit and had the hands removed of millions of workers who didn't meet their quota
Personally - I wouldn't remove these statues - I would turn them into displays of their inhumanity by surrounding them with effigies of their victims in chains, or being flogged, or sold.... that would tell it as it was
When it comes to what is happening at present, it is fully understandable when Blacks fighting for their place in the sun wish to remove statues honouring those who helped start the injustices they are trying to end
Would you be happy to see a statue of Mussolini outside the Italian Embassy in London, put there because "he made the Italian trains run on time?"
I was interested to read in The Times this morning the list of Statues and Monuments being 'looked at' or their past 'contributions to mankind

Drake - pioneer of te Slave Trade
Thomas Picton, Governor of Trinidad, for the brutality his administration meted out
Cecil Rhodes - self explanatory
Lord Kitchener - for introducing concentrations camps to the world
Gladstone for his support of Slave owners
Robert Peel for his opposition to the abolition bill
Robert Dundas for delaying that bill

I have little doubt that that list will grow and grow - like Topsy
We live in a society that honours greed and ruthlessness - some of us would like that to end - we have to start somewhere

I'm not Irish but I'd happily give one of my kidneys to see a statue of Sir Charles Trevelyan standing on the heap of the victims of the Irish Famine victims he brought about through his solution to 'The Irish Question'   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 08:42 AM

Say WHAT ???

Donald Trump’s Scottish golf courses are expected to get a tax rebate of nearly £1m as part of a government bailout for tourism businesses hit by the coronavirus crisis, the Guardian can reveal.

The Trump Organization’s golf resorts in Aberdeenshire and Turnberry will benefit from emergency funding from the Scottish government worth £2.3bn, which includes waiving the property taxes paid by hospitality, leisure and retail businesses this year.

Guardian 10 Jun 20

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 09:35 AM

"I worry about making that thread, spurred by the murder of George Floyd, too anglocentric. I suppose my post belongs more here."

threads might tend to become a tad anglocentric
while our yank buddies are tucked up asleep in their warm cosy beds,
and we are wide awake..

and .. then vice versa...

Time zones are unfortunately one of the practical inconveniences of not being flat earthers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 11:18 AM

As I've written elsewhere, a statue of the Duke of Sutherland, perched high on a massive pedestal itself set on a hill, has been dominating the town of Dornoch, Scottish Highlands, since the mid nineteenth century; his role in what are familiarly known as "The Highland Clearances" should place that statue squarely among the list now being virtuously compiled. Scottish people who still have the knowledge of that part of their country's history have long called for its removal; for the most part, these efforts have been reasoned and legal - and consistently rebuffed - and none of the attempts at more direct action has yet been successful.Well, it's a colossal lump of stuff. I'd say that efforts to remove this reminder that some are born to own the land, the rest of us to work it, have been made for even longer than, for example, the First Nations peoples of North America have been trying to secure better lives for themselves and their families. While in Britain attention is now being widely drawn to such reminders of oppression and exploitation, and in some cases of who and which group still holds the whip-hand, it does seem that a disturbing agenda has become fashionable, that is, to decry any reminder of oppression which is not solely focused on Slavery and on the Slave Trade. Strange, but then, as politicians have known for longer still, an enthusiastic mob with loud enough voices and low enough intellects can be led by their collective noses, as asses are. Keep the pot boiling, reward the right journalists, and soon enough that mob will be insisting that two and two make five if they're told to do so (or any other absurdity chosen), and howl down anyone who dares question the latest orthodoxy cast before "the swinish multitude".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM

ABCD - it's simple enough to understand, the white hot spotlight is on race right now...

Which more than deserves it's turn on the justice bandwagon

Last year it was trans issues,..

The year before.. well.. I forget which one..

Obviously, as a lefty, I'd be happier if the class struggle wasn't constantly being fragmented
into competing media PR promoted higher priority lobbying issues..

But unfortunately, life's a bit shite like that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM

Just a thought about statues.

I wonder how many people could name all the statues in their own town and I wonder just how much of the history of the individuals they know.

Personally I know next to bugger all about the statues in the towns I have lived in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 12:41 PM

"I wonder how many people could name all the statues in their own town "
TRY THIS FOR SIZE BLUE EYES
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 01:37 PM

Heh! That could, happily perhaps, be taken to symbolise something about being able to muffle voices, for a while, but the music lives on...
I could put names to almost every statue in every major Scottish town, and know at least something about any historical personality thus represented and commemorated. However, I do recognise that this is indeed unusual now and proceeds from a personal interest rather than the kind of "Cultural Capital" which could formerly be expected of any educated person; what's worse is the widespread attitude of indifference now so often encountered. One time, some forty years back it would have to be, and during a break for a flask of tea and a wee roll-up, I was recounting to three fellow "casual" labourers something-or-other amusing, or surprising, about Scotland, or Europe maybe, in the eighteenth century. The oldest - in his thirties or forties and therefore older than I, and now, I think, wiser - said indulgently, with a look of amused pity, "Professor, what you dinnae realise is, naebody's interested in that sortay thing".
True that the current explosion of interest in certain statues has been both encouraged and, it seems, steered by media attention. Unfortunate that a likely consequence of attention being so concentrated on that issue is, once a few tons of bronze and marble have been tumbled in various locations, and some politically expedient legislation hurriedly enacted, institutions like certain banks, insurance companies, auction-houses and even churches will continue quietly to do business without much attention, if any, having being turned to the forensic investigation of their "links to Slavery and the Slave Trade". Relevant to the Stately Homes of England too, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 01:59 PM

Not really that difficult Jim in a tiny town in the back end of nowhere that has a festival dedicated to the man who is probably a major source of income to the town.

Have a think back to Liverpool or London and do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 02:20 PM

There's a diabolically bad 'modern art' statue commemorating Frank Foley in Highbridge Somerset...

It was always good for a laugh on the way from the railway station to
Burnham on Sea Folk Fest...

This statue probably does not do for the town's pride
what the local fundraisers had intended...???

But it's certainly memorable...

https://www.jonathan-sells.com/project/frank-foley-sculpture/

The trouble with statues raised in your honour,
is you are usually too long dead
to say you think it's crap art...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM

Well, Voltaire was shown either an architectural drawing of his own proposed Mausoleum, or perhaps the "work in progress". He said that he couldn't wait to try it out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 05:00 PM

in our town - away from the main street - there is a very small statue of wordsworth as a wee boy. and the house where he grew up is preserved as when he was boy. (i'll be walking by his house in a few minutes when i take my dog out) we also have a massive statue of 'Mayo' which dominates the town . he was an irish lord who was viceroy of india back in the empire days. he was also our mp. there is little evidence that he visited (i'm sure his days were spent in london , dublin or inda) or did anything for the town

anyway, i'm not keen on wordsworth's writing but have no objection to preserving his history with the town. yes, i would like to see Mayo removed but again i'm not really bothered as i sense the locals are quite fond of the statue, while we may know little about the man it represents.

if we need a statue at all in place we could have ben stokes - i reckon the freddie truman stutue in skipton is really good. i'm sure both these cricketers have their faults but at least they weren't responsible for the deaths and suffering of many thousands of Indian people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:15 PM

That's "The Pickled Earl", isn't it? Didn't know his title, just that there was some Irish Ascendancy type who became Viceroy of India, was assassinated and, rather like Nelson, made his homeward voyage in a cask of rum.
While this is apart from the principal issues, there is one comparatively recent tendency in public statuary which can be seen as political in a more civic sense than usual, a tendency exemplified by such statues as that of Willie Clancy, pictured in the link posted by Jim Carroll on 10th June, or those of Kavanagh, Joyce and - in a related though not identical way - Molly Malone, just to keep with Irish Literature in these three. There are a number of works in Scotland, too, in which the tendency is also seen; Robert Ferguson in Edinburgh, Robert Burns at "The Birks of Aberfeldy", an anonymous South African woman again in Edinburgh.
The obvious feature of some of these, perhaps also of the Wordsworth statue mentioned above, that the artist is represented as engaged in a characteristic, everyday pursuit which the passer-by seems to discover, to intrude upon, isn't actually the "tendency" I mean. It's the fact that none of these works (I'm making an assumption that the Wordsworth one is something like a small, seated statue of another Irish writer, Padraig Colum), whatever the subject, wherever the location, none of these works has a pedestal. None of these figures is raised above us so that we literally look up to them for generations after their bones were interred. Many are the photographs, I'm sure, of people happily sitting beside the one, or striding down the Canongate with another, or, in one case, recording a happy moment of poetic lese majeste as someone leans over Burns's shoulder to suggest a better rhyme....
Not one has a pedestal. Not one of them looks down the nose at us. Not one, then, fits the long-established civic pattern, where "The Great and the Good" fix an admonitory and controlling gaze upon us, from their sightless sockets. And, as has become very quickly evident, not all of them are still universally admired - if they ever were. As an English writer of reason, and of good common sense, wrote some two centuries ago,
"A long habit of not thinking something wrong, is not sufficient to make it right".
Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:47 PM

The Eric Morcombe is grounded on the pavement like the rest of us hoi polloi..

the Billy Fury is up on a circular 'stage'..

The David Bowie - ground level - but looks rubbish..

The Marc Bolan bust on a memorial headstone.. could be anyone with long curly hair..

Hit or miss...

Me, I'd be happier with more statues celebrating 'great' figures of popular culture
who genuinely brought years of joy to us masses...

Don't matter how good or evil celebrated individuals were in life,
at the end of the day, all statues are pigeon toilets...

Daily Mail - "Treasonous militant Leftist pigeons desecrate our greatest hero Churchill.."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:49 PM

"White Doves vow to protect Winston's statue from BLM pigeon vandals and thugs.."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:56 PM

Last before one, brilliant post, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 01:57 AM

i hadn't thought about that 'rule over us' statue style, but a good general point about which are more troublesome for us modern day citizens. we could have a theme park for torelock tuggers who could wander about looking at horses' bollocks with a work sheet -'who is on the horse/plinth? ' 'who did he oppress? 'how many people died as a result of his efforts?.....'how many children did he have (tricky one)

then 'how many horses in the park'
'how many women in the park?'
'how many non-british in the park?'
'how many non ruling class in the park'?
how did they get their power.....are they still exploiting you? do they represent you in any way?......

needs some work....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 02:06 AM

actually, i've just remembered a trip to (Red) Bologna last year. there is a big, broad plinth at the top of the tall, steep terrace. this used to have a large statue of mussolini on his horse. bologna fans told us that his statue had been pulled down and il duce's head had rolled down the terrace onto the pitch where it had been kicked around by supporters. sounds good to me - i'll check it on wiki

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM

"Me, I'd be happier with more statues celebrating 'great' figures of popular culture"
Why - their reward rest nestle very comfortably in their bank accounts ?
I found it symbolic when I discovered a self-built monument to one of those over-paid, under-talented people, Tommy Hicks (Steele) - sited in the front drive of his mansion in Teddinton guarded by electric gates and a ten foot spiked fence so those who made him wealthy couldn't get near it
Hopefully, when the world is made a fairer place, these monuments to the pampered and inequality will be carried down to the Thames or Mersey and placed where they belong
The old Soviet Union may have had all the growing pains of a people attempting to make the world a fairer place and those flws may have lost them their way, but THEY HAD THEIR PRIORITIES RIGHT WHEN IT CAME TO HONOUR
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Monique
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:07 AM

Mussolini's head and for those who know Italian here they tell that the head was tied to a long rope and dragged across Bologna streets then left somewhere. Some say it was "rescued" and kept in a private museum but the fact is nobody knows where it is now. Maybe Dan Brown could write a book...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:31 AM

On another topic: it's a good wheeze of Gove's not to have the checks on lorries coming into the UK for six moths or so after Jan 2021, is it not? Even though the EU will undoubtedly retain its checks to main the market integrity.

Let's think of lorries and flows. Kirchhoff's Laws and all that. The net flow of lorries across the Channel must be zero. If not, we either run out of lorries entirely, or they all end up in the UK.   By the same law, the rate of lorries leaving a queue must match or exceed the number joining it (over a suitable time interval), otherwise the queue becomes arbitrarily long.

This means having no checks on goods coming into the UK ultimately doesn't help: the dominant term will be the greater of the EU and UK handling time.    As a rough and ready approximation, there are no lorries available to bring goods into the UK, because they are all stuck trying to get out of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:36 AM

I was somewhat horrified to find our tour guide several years ago eulogizing Mussolini as our coach drove through one of the Towns most associated with him at the southern tip of Lake Garda
A similar thing happened on a trip to Rome some years earlier with a massive monument still standing in all its glorification - as 'Eternal' as the city itself
HERE
Fasists in Spain are fighting to make Franco as powerful as he ever was, even after the HIDDEN ATROCITIES

Some of the bereaved families in Britain demanding an enquiry into how the pandemic is still being mishandled looks like they might turn themselves into an action group
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 07:05 AM

At - last, the Government are getting their priories right
Headline in The Times this morning - "Johnson tells Britons" - Get out and shop" - for fuck's sake
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM

Jim - society needs statues..

..without them, where else would pissed-up students
put traffic cones on the way home from parties...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 10:39 AM

"where else would pissed-up students
put traffic cones"
Why not on their heads - I have jaundiced views about the self indulgent behaviour of students - probably sour grapes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 10:49 AM

Jim - alright then, let's be more egalitarian..

..pissed up youths..



As usual I was being factious, but at the same time semi serious,
when I expressed a preference for statues celebrating pop culture personalities
over the establishment 'great and good'...

I'm actually in two minds about street monuments / street Art..

On one hand I think it's a good idea to make places more fun to be in,
on the other hand, a waste of public money,
when there are so many more pressing priorities...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM

I actually don't mind street art when it means something worthwhile - graffiti could be street art when nudged to express the artist rather than their fatuous heroes - I love Banksie
Some statuary have stories behind them -
There's one of a general on a horse behind the St George's Hall in Liverpool, whose creator committed suicide by diving head first off the top of it when he realised he'd put the spurs on it upside down
Destroying these things isn't a new thing - when we went around Egypt the archaeologist guide told us that so many of the faces of the statues hadn't been damaged by age or my weather but by the Coptic Christians who took over from the pharaohs because they didn't like the idea of 'false Gods' gazing down on them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 02:36 PM

Egypt the archaeologist guide told us that so many of the faces of the statues hadn't been damaged by age or my weather but by the Coptic Christians who took over from the pharaohs because they didn't like the idea of 'false Gods' gazing down on them

Great that you had an 'archaeologist' as a guide.
A shame that he didn't seem to know that the last pharaoh (Cleopatra) died 30 years BC, so Coptic Christians could not have taken over from the pharaohs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 02:49 PM

Nigel - are there treatments for rampant point scoring pedantry...???

It's worth googling...


A short period of 30 years or so of Egyptian rulers, over two millennia ago,
is of no interest to most well balanced normal folks in a general conversation
about the here and now...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 04:22 PM

A short period of 30 years or so of Egyptian rulers, over two millennia ago, is of no interest to most well balanced normal folks in a general conversation about the here and now...

No, but it should have been important to a self-proclaimed archaeologist. And the period between the pharaohs and Coptic Christians should have been at least 60 years.

Of course, it could be deliberate lies. A quick Google of "Tour Guides" and "Lies" provides very fertile ground.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 04:55 PM

aaaaaaagggghhhhh...!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 02:37 AM

Nigel.

No, but it should have been important to a self-proclaimed archaeologist. And the period between the pharaohs and Coptic Christians should have been at least 60 years.

Jim doesn't mention that the tour guide proclaimed him or her self an archaeologist. It could have been an archaeology tour guide mis-spelt or auto corrected. Jim may have assumed something incorrectly. Or maybe the tour company got it wrong.

As to the BC thing. Who knows when or even if this Christ person was born?And

If you are going in for Olympic standard pedantry you could at least try to get things right yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 02:49 AM

"Christians could not have taken over from the pharaohs."
Pedantism indeed - the English always did know more than those they colonized, that's why they were 'the masters'
Do you honestly view history as one civilization turning the lights off and handing the keys over to the next occupants as their civilization died off Nigel
It was a figure of speech
The point I was making was how long this sort o thing was going on
I might well have used Henry Vlll removing evidence of Catholicism
Over here we have examples of Pagan sites being either claimed by the church of removed - I'll tell you about our Holy Well sometime
Incidentally - the guide in question was one of several employed by Tomas Cook, whose prctice it was to employ knowledgeable, professionals to make their trips up the Nole 'special'
At the time we went, that was beginning to disappear due to other companies introducing the monster cruise ships that do the trips now
Stop being smug
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 02:56 AM

Could be something as simple as a missed hyphen in Jim’s post. ‘Archaeology-tour guide’ puts a completely different complexion on those three words. A guide for an archaeology-tour doesn’t need to be an archaeologist any more than a guide for a Westminster-Abbey tour needs to be a member of the clergy, or a guide for a Windsor Castle-tour needs to be a member of the royal family.

But, of course, Nitpicking Nigel knows this perfectly well. His comments are nothing more than a red-herring, the typical diversion-tactics of the Right, although he’ll never have the honesty, or the cojones to admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 05:49 AM

BWM: Could be something as simple as a missed hyphen in Jim’s post. ‘Archaeology-tour guide’
Changing "archaeologist tour guide" to "archaeology-tour guide" requires more than the addition of a hyphen. And Jim's post (about 7 minutes before yours) shows that it was not a typo.

Jim: Do you honestly view history as one civilization turning the lights off and handing the keys over to the next occupants as their civilization died off Nigel
It was a figure of speech
No, I do not take that view, but your post made it appear that you did. If it was just a 'figure of speech' then it was a poorly chosen one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 07:10 AM

Stop nit-picking a passing comment Nigel - it doesn't become you
All societies, as they change tend to remove traces of past errors was the real poin - not where I put hyphens
To clarify my archaeologist point once and for all
The now late Thomas Cook was one of the first tour companies, and one of the last to take on the feature of providing authentic information on the places they covered - they gave all the appearance of respecting those countries
I would tend to accept the information given by one of their professional guides, if it's all the same by you - he seemed to know his stuff, at least more than we did about the fascinating history of that beautiful country
I've never really come down from those two weeks
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 07:44 AM

QED. Thanks Nigs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 07:51 AM

I'm no great fan of the "What we do in the shadows" comedy, but they do have a great idea in

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM

HTML typo there.

... in Colin. To me nit-picking does seem a very Colin-like activity. It is wise to do so on legal texts and official statements to notice when they say 'banned' and when 'not approved', but it is not really appropriate for informal conversation like this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 08:06 AM

DMcG - it’s what someone does when they have nothing else to contribute.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM

Mudcat has it's 'characters'..

In real life we've encountered genuine obsessive 'nutters'
who do your head in after only a short time in their social company..

The question hanging over our mudcatters like this - is...

Are they for real, with diagnosable disorders,
or only acting like it to deliberately create distraction and disruption...???

..and is it mere coincidence that our most obsessive 'nutters' tend to be right wing...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 10:11 AM


..and is it mere coincidence that our most obsessive 'nutters' tend to be right wing...?????

While I wouldn't go as far as to use the description 'nutter', I can think of at least one person here, straight away, who has declared himself as being left-wing and is most definitely obsessive.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 11:01 AM

Johnson has been forced into the launching of an enquiry into racial inequality in Britain
Amazing what a dead statue will do
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 11:07 AM

From a live feed:
PM urges EU to agree Brexit trade deal by ‘end of summer’

The UK has urged the European Union to reach a post-Brexit free trade agreement “by the end of the summer” as Boris Johnson held talks with Brussels chiefs.

The UK had previously indicated that it could walk away from talks with the EU if the “broad outline” of a deal was not visible by the June meeting. But officials played down the prospect of “drama” at the summit, which was being conducted by video link.

I find that slightly positive, though still think a 'no-deal' most likely. Dropping the bluster of stopping talks and switching all the UK focus to no-deal planning is welcome, as is the implicit recognition of how important a deal is for the UK. The EU stance has barely changed since the outset, so the UK is well aware of what the EU will or will not compromise on. No doubt this will be presented as the UK doing everything possible to get a deal if the no-deal is the final situation, but there are glimmers of opportunities in this.

I insist on saying "no-deal" rather than WTO rules, by the way, because parts of the WTO rules include a dispute resolution mechanism in the evert of disagreements, and at the moment that is not operating. Established deals under WTO rules can bumble along for the most part, but setting up new ones will almost certain require disputes to be resolved.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 11:48 AM

..and is it mere coincidence that our most obsessive 'nutters' tend to be right wing...?????

Only from the viewpoint of the left wing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 12:01 PM

"Only from the viewpoint of the left wing."
Ask tehe police who got the shit kicked out of them by thugs giving the nazi salute at an anti statues march a couple of days ago
HERE
Would you like to offer a left equivalent Nigel
Right wing thuggery has been on the rise since Brexit - all prooudly claiming to be Patriots
Johnson'a right wing racist nutter - if your party's rotten at the top what else can you expect
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

i reckon we could/shouldespecially now when right clearly means wrong.   forget the terms left and right. i've supported several groups in my time from swp to scottish socia;ists, snp, (usally in the )labour party and greens. within these i've met many people who are at various points on the political spectrum. - 'left' doesn't really work to describe all those people (especially the labour party)

where you stand on the important issues of the day - the environment, racism, scottish league reconstruction, brexitor the feckless, lying tory government - is not dependent on a left/right analysis.


how about progressive/reactionary

open/closed

decent/selfish

as far as supporters of the far right in government go - fascist/brain dead

.....whatever words we choose it's far more complex in all of us but 'left' is just shorthand

b
('brexitor the feckless' was a genuine typo that i left in as it amused me - a big dumb monster who raoms the land breaking stuff

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:33 AM

Ireland is now facing a coaltion Government whose sole purpose is to overturn the people's choice at the last election - a rag-bag army made up of Fianna Fail, a party which has overseen vulture capitalism, Fianna Gael, founded by Nazis, and the Greens - an unknown one-shot lover who has yet to make up its mind what it wants to do about all the problems Ireland has accumulated
Already there is discussion of 'the next election' - hardly hope for the future
The Labour party spectacularly threw way significant gains made by progressive policies and a principled approach by burying itself in a coaltion with the worst - the offspring of the Blueshirts
Some people need hard lessons before they learn anything
I have reservations about the true winners in the last election but we know what they stand for and can choose on thet basis (nobody emerged from 'The Troubles' with clean hands - Britain had the dirtiest of the lot)
Interesting times
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:50 AM

"people's choice" and "true winners" ?

I know that you have some weird way of counting votes but that is taking things a bit too far. Under the PR system 75% of the people who actually voted did not appear to vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 07:46 AM

UK could lose right to share security and business data with EU after Brexit, minister admits

James Brokenshire insisted the government remained “positive” that agreement would be reached, saying: “It is self-evidently in the interests of both side that the adequacy decision is in place by the end of the year.”

This is a classic "Prisoner's Dilemma" game: while it might be 'self evidently' best to reach one outcome, reaching that requires a level of trust in the other player that is simply not there and without it you end up in the situation where both players choose an inferior option.   Cummings is reportedly very keen on game theory: it is a pity some other Ministers and back-benchers seem completely unaware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 08:31 AM

" Under the PR system 75% of the people who actually voted did not appear to vote for them."
The PR system was devised to ascertain that all voters get a representative say the running of their country - way -way more democratic than the first past the post system that was adopted by the six counties when they decided on a Protestant State'
Nooking at pecentage increases, Sinn Fein would have emerged a clear winner had they been able to afford to enter more candidates - money is the fence they fell at, not popularity
Today's accounting makes them a few points behind the winners, Fianna Fail and way ahead of Finna Gael - The Greens lurk in obscurity, unfortunately, yet they hold all the cards - there is registered opposition to coalition from both of the main parties
The leaders have sacrificed democracy and and national stability at the political expediency altar
After the Labour betrayal I and many historical Labour supporters swore not to vote for them again - I've just added the Greens to that list
I would rather not vote that support the other two
There's nothing "weird" about principles - you need to judge what would have happened on a level playing field
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 02:06 PM

Missed the news but there seems to have been a mjor breakthrough infinding a possibble cure for Covid - it's baan around for ages pparently
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

Jim - not a cure, but potentially life saving for some recovering patients...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:46 PM

Yes, it seems it helps about 1 in eight of the seriously ill. So welcome progress and significant, but it is still a long way from a cure or vaccine.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM

Oxford University found that the steroid dextro... saves the lives of 33% of the most seriously ill.

(don't tell the yanks)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:53 PM

Dexamthasone. Intensol TM
Rx only

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM

"(don't tell the yanks)"
Don't tell the profiteers either
The Medicine Industry is a prime target for nationalisation - that would sort out some of the major problems of the NHS overnight
On of the most ludicrous things to emerge from the present crisis was that The Tobacco Industry were scrambling to find a cure - not exactly known for its altruism
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM

YouGov survey: 80% reject chlorinated chicken and similar

I emailed my MP about this, and here is my question and his response. It is a follow up to an earlier email:


I am afraid it does not address my question, which I summarise below:
If the government proposes a trade deal which in any way reduces the manifesto commitment to protect the food standards, will you vote against the government to maintain that commitment you made?
=======
His response?
Thank you. You don’t need to tell me to be aware. I know how elections work. I do what I do, explain my reasons and you choose one of the candidates.
=======
Anyone think he will try to protect food standards then?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM

Katie Hopkins permanently removed from Twitter
Not that I'd heard of her, but from what I now read it's probably the right move.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:29 AM

There is lots of talk of reducing the 2-metre rule to 1-metre. It seems to me that in an open area and ignoring the effects of wind, the risk from a given amount of virus will follow an inverse square law: 2 metres is 4 times safer than 1 metre. However the risk is equivalent if the source of infection is four times lower.   So I am comfortable with a 1 metre rule when the number of people in the population infected is around one-quarter of what it was when the 2 metre rule was introduced.

In a confined space the calculations are really complicated, but after a while you would expect the virus to be roughly evenly distributed around the space, and so 2 metre or 1 metres does not really make a difference. Until the uniform distribution is reached, it will be some blend of the two situations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 08:09 AM

Jeremy Corbyn's brother has been arrested for breachuing lockdown rules by attending a demonstration
Wonder if he'll be sharing a holding cell with Dom and Dummer Scummings - no bets taken
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:20 AM

In a confined space the calculations are really complicated, but after a while you would expect the virus to be roughly evenly distributed around the space, and so 2 metre or 1 metres does not really make a difference. Until the uniform distribution is reached, it will be some blend of the two situations.
No, after a while you would expect it to have settled to the floor (or other surfaces). The one/two metre zone is to allow the 'droplets' to sink below face level. The virus does not get a uniform distribution in the air. (as I have understood the science presented so far). This is why there is a greater risk standing face to face, rather than behind or to the side of someone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:40 AM

Whether or not Nigel is right (and I tend to agree with him - I seem to recall that explanation being given by some ‘expert’ on TV when distancing was first introduced) I will continue to try to maintain a 2-metre distance at all times. Where that may not be possible - e.g. when I’m shopping for myself and my wife’s octogenarian parents - I wear a face-covering and disposable nitrile gloves, and I’ll continue to do so into the foreseeable future.

Better safe than sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:54 AM

No, after a while you would expect it to have settled to the floor (or other surfaces).
That is partially true - I didn't want to get into the subtleties of it too much.   You would certainly expect a non-uniform gradient of some kind on the vertical axis and indeed a lot of the virus will settle on surfaces. But it can also settle on dust, for example, and hence remain airborne for long periods, becoming airborne again any time the dust is disturbed.

As I suggested, enclosed spaces are complicated. It would not be uniform horizontally either, because furniture, electrostatic effects, positions of doors and windows and many other factors will all affect things.

The best rule of thumb model I can come up with - and I do not claim anything epidemiological studies behind this, just what 'textbook physics' might suggest! - is a background level plus an inverse square of distance contribution. If the background level is dominant, the inverse square term might be small enough to ignore; conversely if the level is very low, as it typically is in open spaces, only the distance really matters. But the background level varies continuously - each room will be different - and if, for example, to enter a open space you need to pass through a gate, that gate becomes an environmental hotspot.


The point of this ramble is to consider whether I would be happy moving to a one metre separation from a 2 metre one. And the inverse square component suggests to me that the time to do so is when the number of infected people is around a quarter of the level it was when the two metre rule was introduced, because that is, roughly speaking, an equal risk.

Anyone else is welcome to come up with a criteria of their own choosing when they will be happy with a closer distance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 01:05 AM

I'm still staying in the house, unless I have no choice to go out for some purpose..

But that's been my lifestyle of choice for years..

My concern, is I need to see a dentist asap for a probable tooth extraction,
that's been delayed by the clinic
since they let me down over a last minute cancelled appt in January..

Then they cancelled the rescheduled appt due to lockdown..


oh well... let's see if they answer the phones now...

Toothache is a bastard, so it's a weigh up between either risking sepsis, or covid...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

twice in recent years i've had painful toothache while in glasgow and received immediate emergency treatment that they wouldn't take any money for. so - go up there! oh sorry, we can't go yet....in itself a major source of pain for some.

as we have learned to mistrust anything that the english government says i won't be rushing back to the pub or anywhere inside for a while. and i'll wait for nicola to advise me on when i can get back up there and see my daughter, friends, central station, botanic gardens, kelvingrove art gallery , tennents bar and the wee curry shop. that'll be great until i can get back to watching partick thistle again - though for a couple of years now that has been the most disappointing part of my trips. we have been shit for 2 years.

apologies - i thought i was on the dentistry/what do you want to do after lockdown/aren't the governments eejits thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:55 AM

I’m beginning to think this particular thread has run its course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:32 AM

Perhaps, Backswoodsman, but I would not close it. Just let it fall into the depths, and then if something worth discussing happens we can resume posting to it.

Plenty of notable things are happening, of course, both on the virus and Brexit, but most are being reported elsewhere. I only see a point in posting here if either I have something specific to say or would like to hear other peoples viewpoints.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:43 AM

Good point, DMcG. Can’t argue with that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 12:40 PM

yes, it's weird - this thread is just sort of limping along when the political scene is crazier and more volatile than ever. maybe we could just accept that all is up in the air and turn our discussion to where we may hope to be in - say- a year's time. i'm interested in any positive developments that maybe to come. just banging on about self-evident truths about our awful government isn't really any good for any of us.
however, i'm always up for a bit of thread drift, nonsense, light-heartedness and humour.

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:09 PM

The problem is, Pete, it’s very difficult to foresee anything good coming from this Government, no matter how long we wait. I really cannot remember a less competent, more corrupt bunch ever.

Perhaps some of the Tory supporters on the forum can give us some predictions of some of the great things we will see over the life of the government. Or even just a few. And I’m asking for something more concrete than ‘Get Brexit Done’.

I’m not holding my breath though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:42 PM

We're all borised out..

Terminal fatigue and torpor has set in
waiting for him to eff up so badly, he gets sacked and replaced..

This lethal buffoon is one of nature's most dogged survivors...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM

John Crace, in His Guardian piece, hypothesises that, not only are the opposition fed up with Johnson, but many of his own party-members are too. I wonder what slogan Cummings will dream up to keep the party faithful onside and save Johnson’s sweaty skin?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:29 PM

The government's chief medical adviser has said that a second spike in Covid-19 cases is inevitable if people ignore the conditions that are supposed to apply to the lockdown being relaxed.

Speaking at the final Downing St press conference, Whitty said: 'It is absolutely critical people stick to the guidance that has been given. It's a changed guidance for there are still very significant restrictions socially'
my opinion, based on what i hear from some british people is that there are a number of fools who think it is all over, if that is the case a second wave is inevitable

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:36 PM

Replying to BWM: Along with Netanyahu. He's easily as crooked as Trump, and he's been playing this game forever. There's something about people voting in criminals or the totally unequipped"populist" candidates that is really troubling - it shows that our education system is failing to turn out citizens who understand how civics and government are supposed to work. Those were the classes dropped from the curriculum because they weren't charismatic enough, or the one teacher who covered it finally retired and there was no youngster able or willing to take it on.

My disgruntled riff of the afternoon. At least some of these primary elections in the US are showing the worm turning; talented community organizers are coming into their own. I guess they'll be the ones to teach civics to the entire population. (And if you in the UK ever get a chance to hear congress person Katie Porter at work in a congressional hearing, you're in for a treat.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:16 PM

Your right, SRS. But it’s also the power of the Right-Wing media, financed and fuelled by a small group of immensely-rich individuals and their organisations, working on the fears and prejudices of those politically uneducated people you talk about. It’s corruption, pure and simple.

But how to end it is the question. I fear it will get steadily worse - I hope it doesn’t, but I fear it will until, as predicted by Marx, the Capitalist system consumes itself, leading to revolution by the underclass.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:30 PM

It's not capitalism per se BWM. It's the unfettered greed that causes the type of extremes we are seeing. Extremism in any form, be it capitalist or socialist, causes rifts and problems. Balance, compromise, education and understanding are the tools to fix those rents. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:31 AM

same thing, capitalism encourages greed , unlike christianity as practised by christ or humanitarianism,
    you are entitled to your wrong opinion, Dave; and it is not correct since when has socialism encouraged greed, if this is not what you are saying why bring in a redherring, socialism does not encourage rifts.
    socialism is political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole,
how does that cause rifts, no the rifts are caused by the media who mostly represent the owner class who have a vested interest in dividing people against the community acting together and owning whast they already own,
a genuine criticism of socialism as a poltical philosophy , would be to state that it is dated , because at the time it was written by Marx [the late 19 century] , nobody envisaged that resources were finite. your opinion is half baked twaddle but what is new?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

"It's not capitalism per se"
I don't agree
Capitalism is a system based on fostering and encouraging a natural greed that is instinctive in most but is suppressed as people mature
A child will instinctively take what it wants rather than share it, until it is taught differently - capitalism is designed to over-ride that teaching
Opposing capitalism is described, by those who support it as "the politics of envy" - a phrase regularly used on programmes like 'Question Time'

Handy summing up here

Michael White Wed 29 Aug 2012
Nick Clegg … just jealous of the rich?
As Tory MPs go, mild Bernard Jenkin wouldn't claim to be an original phrase-maker. So when confronted with Nick Clegg's call for a wealth tax at breakfast time on Wednesday, Jenkin couldn't manage a snappier retort than to accuse the deputy prime minister of "the politics of envy".
The envious idea of chopping the heads off tall poppies can be traced to Herodotus, though the ancient Greek pundit wrote about decapitating tall stalks of wheat. Poppies, wheat, investment bankers, Richard Branson – the idea is much the same.
Nowadays the charge, revived by an American called Doug Bandow in the 90s, is levelled against the left and invariably deployed by the right. It's not hard to see why. For every bloodthirsty Robespierre there must be a million gentle citizens who regard tax-evading millionaires as ripe for the politics of fairness over those of greed.
So when George Osborne cuts the 50p tax rate to 45p (only the poor need cuts to incentivise them) and faces "millionaire's budget" jibes, he accuses his critics of TPOE. When Barack Obama denounces unfunded Republican tax cuts for the rich (a hard charge to deny), he and his "socialist cronies" are tarred with TPOE.
That sounds more admirable than saying that outsourcing American jobs, rigging the City's Libor network, or flogging worthless securities to pension funds deserves vast pay and perks. If talent, hard work, innovation and risk (with one's own money too) were the only road to uber-wealth, there would be less of a growing 99% to 1% problem.
Let's not take Jenkin's word on TPOE. Let's ask Warren Buffett, a man who made billions investing against the free-market herd. Sure there's class warfare, he says. "It's my class, the rich class, that's making war – and we're winning."

Thatcher spent her career attempting to respectableise greed and, to a degree, she succeed
The 'honours system' in Britain is now loaded towards rewarding the greedy (aka "the successful")
Netnyahu and his wife are openly crooks, and they are getting way with their dishonesty, Theresa may and Johnson have openly used taxpayers money to remain in power - Johnson gave a businesswoman a Government grant to get his leg over.
Trump's corrupt companies have cheated, connived and gone bust with the worst of them.... these are world leaders; the most powerful people on the planet
'The Decline and Fall of the Capitalist System' -s a book begging to be written
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:38 AM

further more socialism is not as extreme as communism.
as i understood it socialism was supposed to be achieved by democratic means whereas communism has involved violent revolution.
There is also a difderence, not just in the way changes to ownership ofproductiion are realised, but also that under communism, most property and economic resources are owned and controlled by the state (rather than individual citizens); under socialism, all citizens share equally in economic resources as allocated by a democratically-elected government

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:39 AM

Read what I said, Dick. Extremism causes problems. You only have to look at the excesses of the extreme left, far right, Islam and Christianity to see that in action.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:18 AM

"further more socialism is not as extreme as communism."
Socialism is an objective, communism is an objective achieved, neither are "extreme" other than to those who don't want it to happen - that's what the word
"Extremism" is a word now being misused in place of "something I don't agree with" (a little like "terrorism")
Terrorist tactics are fine when used by freedom fighters fighting for 'a just cause' against overwhelming odds or 'opponents of tyranny' - only those they are fighting call it terrorism"
I doubt if anybody can name a country which has fought in a war that hasn't opted fooor "terrorism" when considered necessary
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:33 AM

Extremism is extremism and it is wrong. It is not a word for something we disagree with. It is a word for the excesses of Hitler, Stalin, the Taliban and the Westboro Baptist Church.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:03 AM

They are people and organisations you are referring to Dave - you might add a few world leaders to that list - 'Mad Maggie', who described mass murder and torture in Chile as "democracy", or any U.S. leader (there were several) who oversaw the bombing of Vietnam with burning petrol bombs and carcinogenic missiles, while at the same time replacing chosen leaders with puppets like Marshall Ki.....
Dick mentioned philosophies - that's what communism and socailism are
There's nothing wrong with pursuing any just philosophy you its logical conclusion - if it IS just - that's the litmus test
Israel describes its opponents as terrorists yet regularly celebrates the memory of the bombing of The King David Hotel - a classic case of double-think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:16 AM

They were examples, Jim. Not a definitive list.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Socialism is not extreme.
you quote Stalin,
he was not a socialist
he was a Georgian revolutionary and Soviet politician who led the Soviet Union from the mid-1920s until 1953 as the general secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (1922–1952)
Whether he practised communism or state fascism is debatable ,but he was not a socialist.
it is arguable but some would argue that the USA behaves and has behaved in a terrorist manner, the overthrow of Allendes government was a terrorist and extreme act of violence, it wass extremist to overthrow Allende who was democratically elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 05:01 AM

"further more socialism is not as extreme as communism."
I know and in general I agree with you, but they tended to be somewhat one-sided in the sense that those you missed off the list are among the first to scream "terrorism" as a convenient method of silencing opposition
When that becomes the norm the term itself becomes meaningless - it's a little like using "antisemitism" as a political weapon (as most decent Labour Party members have come to realise
Sorry Dave - I don't think tat's juggling semantics
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 05:14 AM

Re the German outbreak in the meat processing plant:

Martin Exner, a hygiene and public health expert at the university of Bonn, spent two days analysing the Tönnies meat-processing plant in Gütersloh, where an entire district has been sent back into lockdown after around 1,500 employees were infected with Coronavirus.

Slaughterhouses have also been at the heart of Covid-19 outbreaks in America, France, and other German regions.

At a press conference, Exner said the air filtration system in the slaughter area had contributed to the spread of aerosol droplets laden with the virus, describing it as a “newly recognised risk factor”.
=====

Sorry, but that is not really a newly recognised risk factor. Newly appreciated, perhaps. Look at items two and three in this article.

This will, of course, potentially be a major factor as pubs and restaurants reopen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 10:50 AM

Wow! Reported just now that RL-B has been sacked for sharing an article on Twitter that contains an ‘anti-Semitic conspiracy theory’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM

That should of course be ‘sacked from the shadow cabinet’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

I understand that she has been sacked for agreeing with Maxine Peake that the US police learned their kneeling on neck technique fro the Israeli Secret Service
Israel is not the 'Jewish People' so in now way can she be accused of antisemitism - on the contrary - anybody who makes such an accusation is in breach of the 10th clause of the definition of antisemitism by linking the Jewish People with Israeli Policy
I knew Sir Keefe was a scumbag
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM

I would have thought it more important for the shadow cabinet to be concentrating on uk government and corruuption,was she being anti semitic?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 12:30 PM

A few facts here
"Over 100 Minnesota Law Enforcement Officers Attended A 2012 Conference Organized By The Israeli Consulate In Which Israeli Police Trained Them. Israeli Forces Often Use The Knee-On-Neck Restraint On Palestinians."
HERE
MORE

Good to know the Labour Party is in a safe pair of hands !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 12:57 PM

I read a fairly legit report a few days ago on the extent of Israeli military and ex-military
involvement
in lucrative international 'security consultancy' contracts...

It's big $$$$$s business for Israel...

What.. Bailey a handy sacrificial lamb to demonstrate Sir Keith can be a decisive hard man,
just when he is berating boris for being so soft on his [allegedly..] corrupt tory sycophant hench men...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:43 PM

Capitalism is a system based on fostering and encouraging a natural greed that is instinctive in most

No it isn't. That may be the result but capitalism is a system that concentrates on the private sector and profit while socialism concentrates on the the state and welfare of the people. The obvious choice for anyone that cares is the latter but, to date, no system has as yet managed to overcome all the issues. There is now another factor. Both private industry and the state are squandering natural resources at a rate that cannot be sustained. When all the resources are spent or when the climate cannot maintain human life, petty political differences will matter not one jot. It's time to compromise and all work together.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 06:26 PM

Keir Starmer has today revealed three facets of his character. First, he is politically astute. He knows that his ruthless action re Becky Long-Bailey mutes the vicious opponents of Corbynism, both in the party and outside, with regard to the bogus running sore of antisemitism in the party. Second, he is viciously dishonest. The remark that was supposed to be antisemitic, made by Maxine Peake, was absolutely no such thing, and he knows it. Antisemitism is attacking Jews because they are Jews. The comment in question contained nothing of that sort whatsoever. Attacking the actions of the Israeli state is never, ever, antisemitic. Unless, of course, you make the criticism then add, or imply, that "it's typical of Jews..." which was neither remotely said nor implied. Third, he is a bloody coward who has been led by the nose by the Board Of Deputies, an undemocratic setup that was also responsible in large part for the extremely dishonest and disreputable "working definition of antisemitism," which had the prime aim of stifling any criticism of successive Israeli regimes over their dreadful mistreatment of the Palestinian minority in the territories they control. The pusillanimous and downright creepy and unconditional support of the outrages committed by successive Israeli regimes will one day come back to bite those who indulge in it. Starmer has already shown that he's such a good fence-sitter that his arse must be more splinters than flesh. This move today is simply further confirmation. I look forward to a big backlash in the party. In other words, grrr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 03:32 AM

"No it isn't. "
Yest it is and it has never attempted to hide that fact
It is a natural progression of the feudalist system it replaced the dominance of the wealthy and the powerful over the peasant's/workers - that's history Dave
Even at the best of times, the bank balances of those that have are placed above the general good
Today we are seeing this writ large - people are being forced into "a new normality" when it is fairly obvious that winter will bring a second wave of the virus - as is already beginning to happen in some countries which have jumped the gun
Johnson got a bad scare after his sickness - he still looks pretty shaken; he stood up and swore that the lockdown would not be lifted too soon
He was persuaded otherwise by a divided cabinet and business pressure
It will be argued when things go wrong that the risk was taken "for the good of the country" - the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders

By the way, most attempts to "change the system" managed miracles beyond belief - semi-feudal empires turned into world leaders with massive iprovements in lifing standards across the board, and world-leading edcucation and health in less than half a century - despite constant outside interference, Civil Wars, a world War and a cold war - and corrupt (even insane) leaders
These were achieved by huge sacrifices, sure, but we've all been asked to make them, whatever system we live under
Capitalism relies on an unequal society with the wealthy dominating a subservient 'lower order' - that is a flawed society

Amen to everything you wrote Steve - Starmer is a ruthless Blair writ large - at least 'Our Tone' started off with principles - if Keerie has his way, they will be things of the past
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM

Jim posted "It will be argued when things go wrong that the risk was taken "for the good of the country" - the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders"

I am not sure what you are saying here. is it that they should not be relaxing the lockdown until people are sure that there is no risk?

Then you say "the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders"

Are you saying the economy is heading that way due to the lockdown or for some other reason?

The facts are that we are heading for huge economic problems. The government has spent huge amounts of money and will probably have to continue to do so, while at the same time revenues are falling faster than ever.

People are losing their jobs because of the lockdown and it is most likely that a lot more jobs will be lost. Even if a cure for the virus was found today, it will take quite a time for things ever to return to 'normal'.

As I mentioned a while back, it has struck me that most of the regular posters to these threads are no longer working. The loss of jobs will probably only hit you later, when services that you use are affected. For those people who are still working, the loss of their jobs will have a dramatic and immediate effect on their lives. For those small to medium business owners the loss of their business will have the same effect.

We are living in troubled times and I don't see any easy remedies ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM

What the Labour Party needs most of all is unity, and loyalty to their elected leader.

It’s very strange that those who deplored the disloyalty suffered by Corbyn, and the way he was undermined by his own party’s members, are now displaying precisely the same kind of disloyalty towards Starmer. And that’s the flaw which the Tories will take advantage of more and more in order to ensure another election victory.

It gives me no pleasure to say it but, as someone who has only turned to Labour in recent years, it seems patently obvious Labour really do need to wake up, smell the coffee, and realise that they are their own worst enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:04 AM

The lock-down should be eased ony when the risk has been minimised enough to do so.
The main factor has to be a health - not an economic one
We have seen d deliberate undermining of the heal advice eing given, largely by the business sector and the politicians who back them
It's rather like WW1 where every yard of territory ought over was calculated by how namy lives could be sacrificed
None of the tings you mentioned are due to the lock-down - they are due to the pandemic - the lock-down is an unavoidable consequence of that
Much of this revolves around public perception and reaction - the ease-down is announced and you get mass madness like yesterday's Bournemouth Beach
This has been the way things are since the confusion of sending people back to work on Monday - whoops, I meant Wednesday - crammed cattle-trucks on the London tube
National lemmingism
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:10 AM

I agree, Backwoodsman. Had Keir Starmer not acted as he did, it would have awoken the entire antisemitism row again. Before the last election Labour spent months arguing whether various statements were or were not anti-Semitic and all it did was destroy their position. I know several long term Labour voters who voted with other parties - not Conservatives - because of 'the antisemitism thing.' For Keir to go down the route of arguing it was not really anti-Semitic would have been severely wounding, if not potentially fatal. His very first statement, more or less, was that he wanted to end that row. Rebecca Long-Bailey was perhaps no more than carelessly patting the back of loyalist in her constituency. Perhaps she had done no more than speed-read the article. No matter, I am afraid. The topic is too politically dangerous to risk re-opening it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM

Absolutely Nail/Head, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:14 AM

Corbyn brought in many new members not because of his personality or his experience (he had neither) but because he offered a return to Labour principles
Starmer is set fair to loose just as many with his abandoning of those principles
Throwing his ministers to the wolves makes him no better than the worst of the Tory leaders and it helps keep scum like Netanyahu in place to continue interfering in the British Parliamentary system
Bailey and Peake were right - Israel has trained 10 US police forces including the force that killed Floyd
TRAINED to STRANGLE
Any party that expels members for telling the truth isn't worth shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM

The sacking was unprincipled, opportunistic and cowardly. Instead of showing strength in standing up to any genuine antisemitism, he has gleefully taken the opportunity he has been waiting for to begin to "cleanse" his shadow cabinet of lefties, and has thereby shown himself to be a weak-willed boot-licker of the pro-Israel lobby in this country. I can just imagine the blood rushing to the heads of the Board Of Deputies. Who can we get next, they'll be thinking...You who are defending him can read the piece that led to the sacking. There was no conspiracy theory and no antisemitism. He is doing the very thing that leads to divisions. No doubt you'll be blaming the left when it all goes pear-shaped. Yours angrily, Steve, only just still a party member...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM

“”Any party that expels members for telling the truth isn't worth shit”

RL-B hasn’t been ‘expelled’ by the LP, Jim. She’s been relieved of her position in the Shadow Cabinet.

Any party that can’t get itself elected to form a government isn’t worth shit. A Tory majority of 81 ought to tell you something - it’s not rocket-science.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:49 AM

Any party that ditches its principles so shabbily and ruthlessly isn't worth shit either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:52 AM

Smentics Baccie - she has been 'neutrailised' which is worse
We've had Labour Governments - the only one to have made a difference was elected in 1945
The rest have all been Tory Governments in all but name
Blair's was the second worst of bad Tory Governments (close on the heels of Thatcher)
A Labour Government without Labour principles is worth less than shit - the turd in charge now is actually supporting one of the things that had Corbyn removed - false accusations of antisemitism
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

Attacking the actions of the Israeli state is never, ever, antisemitic. Unless, of course, you make the criticism then add, or imply, that "it's typical of Jews..."

                ---------:---------

I can just imagine the blood rushing to the heads of the Board Of Deputies. Who can we get next, they'll be thinking...


By the definition given in the first statement, the second statement appears, to me, to be antisemitic.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:16 AM

Absolute rubbish. You appear to be saying that I can't criticise the Board Of Deputies in the same way that I can criticise anyone else. Well I can and I will, and if that's what you think then you've been hoodwinked and cowered by the same strong lobby that has successfully managed to get any criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime labelled as antisemitic. I might suggest to you that you think very carefully before you go around labelling any of us here as antisemitic. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

As the frequently mis-attributed quote goes, ‘The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results’.

It seems to me that Starmer has acted quickly and with authority in order to de-fuse the charge of institutional anti-semitism made, with great success, against the LP pre-the 2019 GE by its own party-members, the Board of Deputies, and the Conservatives. He’s sharp enough to know that the ‘anti-semitism’ trope was a deliberate tactic, along with ‘Get Brexit Done’ etc., aimed at ensuring a Tory win at the election. It worked, at least in part, because the party leadership failed to deal with it properly.

If you’re happy for Labour to carry on in the Corbyn way, and thus guarantee they will be in permanent opposition, fine - have it yur way. But remember, Labour can’t change anything if the don’t get elected, and a Tory majority of 81 says something has to change in a big way. If you can’t hold your noses for a while and support the current leadership, you’re no better than the Corbyn-detractors during his time as leader, and you’d better get ready for Tory rule for a very, very long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:49 AM

I thought labour had a future with Corbyn - I respected his stance on Israel and his refusal to scapegoat members because of a deliberate plot hatched up by New Labour supporters and Friends of Irrael
To capitulate woould have put Labour back at square one
I'd rather have no Labour Party rather than one without principles
Your way has been tried and has failed miserably
It is you who is repeating a mantra about being in power - try responding to what I have said
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

I thought Maxine Peake had retracted her claim about the Israeli training of the US police.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

For the record, the Parliamentary Labour Party is split down the middle over the sacking
This "insanity" must be as infectious as Coraonavirus
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:15 AM

”I’d rather have no Labour Party rather than one without principles”

That’s exactly what the Tories want to hear. Well done for giving them succour Jim.

Politics isn’t binary, and getting a party to the point of electability necessarily involves compromises. Wake up and smell the coffee, or get ready for permanent Tory government.

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:23 AM

"I thought Maxine Peake had retracted her claim about the Israeli training of the US police."
If she has I'll be very disappointed - it had been a known fact for about a month now
HERE
NECK_KNEELING, UP CLOSE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:27 AM

I'm appalled that you should support the behavour of this man the way you are
You certainly have chosen your side in the Labour Party - Tony Blair would be proud of you
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 08:51 AM

I want a Labour government. Your lot completely fucked it up, and we’ve ended up with the most corrupt Right-Wing Tory government in my lifetime, and you’ve learned nothing from the experience.

I’m appalled that you’re incapable of compromise in order to get this disgusting bunch of corrupt, greedy Tories out. Meanwhile the lpoor and vulnerable continue to be sacrificed on the altar of your intransigence.

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:05 AM

Well.. Sir keef better have a well devised longer term strategy
how he is going to decisively neutralise the israeli regime take-over
of our UK Labour party...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:22 AM

Worry not, pfr. Labour Friends of Israel have tightened their grip, along with the Board Of Deputies. Until someone grows the cojones to tell these arseholes to get off and walk, every little mention of Israel or the Palestinians will be flagged up for scrutiny. There's no end to this misery. Starmer has solved absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:25 AM

No Baccie - "our lot" didn't fuck it up
It was already "fucked up" by one on yours who turned out to be a war criminal who supported sending troops in sear of non existent weapons in order to appease Goerge Dubya - he narrowly escaped international prosecution
That was the Labour Party Corbyn was faced with changing
He "fucked it up" by attempting to return Labour to it's socialist principles
Britain is in the state that it is in because it has lived with a two-party same policy sysstem for far too long
Under both Labour and Conservative Governments, British workers have lost their rights to a say in working conditions, they have watched the NHS slither down to crisis level, they've seen industries go bust, homes have been transormed into investments, unemployment has steadily climbed and now the unemployed are forced to take any job that is offered to them no matter what they were trained for and usually at an enforced decline in standards of living
The gap between haves and have-nots has reached ASTRONOMICAL LIMITS pretty well the highest in the 'free world'
That has been brought about by a series of Governments whose policies have become indistinguishable
The fact that Blair oved to formalise that bey creating 'New Labour' caused many thousands of people who wanted genuine change to abandon the Labour Party - Corbyn's policies and promises brought them flocking back
In the short time that this knight of the realm has been in office he has managed to frive aa wedge between the giffeent groups in the Labour Party - all to appease an extreme right wing State which is bust ethnically cleansing Arabs out of their rightful homes
Shame on you for supporting any of this
Now will you answer my points instead of meaningllessly trying to lay the blame on people who still support what the Labour Party was set up i the first place for
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:32 AM

i've left the labour party 3 times in the past and supported and voted for other progressive parties. anyway, i joined again when corbyn was going for the leader job. i thought it disgusting the way he was treated and i'm dismayed to see what the leader is doing to Rebecca L-B. however, i'm not even thinking of leaving - did i read that part of maxine peake's purpose was to urge left leaning members to stay with the party? - well, i'll do that and do my best to use what little influence i can to keep the party to task in fighting for the rights and lives of people in england and internationally. i'm afraid i think it's self-indulgent and defeatist to do anything else. i havn't been loyal to the labour party but i have all my life fought the tories and the danger they currently pose to us all is real and urgent. it's a terrible system - we have to remake it and this will never happen unless we get rid of the tories. 'a party without principles is not worth supporting' is purist but just what the tories and their friends want you to think. sadly, we have to get our hands dirty to get rid of their filth.

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

So, how do you, Jim and Steve propose to ‘get rid of the Tories’?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:38 AM

Sorry, pressed ‘go’ too soon!

....get rid of the Tories without compromise within a terminally divided party? How do you propose to demonstrate that ‘anti-semitism’ is a completely unfounded Tory trope without demonstrating it won’t be tolerated?

How?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 09:39 AM

How do you propose to demonstrate party-solidarity and unity without compromise - on both sides?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 10:21 AM

"How do you propose to demonstrate that ‘anti-semitism’ is a completely unfounded Tory trope without demonstrating it won’t be tolerated?"
It is not up to me or anybody to prove the accusation is unfounded, on the contrary, it's up to the accusers to prove it does - that's how British justice works
Antisemitism is the oldesst form or racist bigotry in existence and it is present in every party, Labour included
There was not a smell of it being 'a problem until almost exactly one month after Corbyn announced his support for the Palestinian People - he drew short of supporting BDS
A group of Labour Friends of Israel were invited to a meeting with the Knesset and a week after they returned accusations of Labour antisemitism began to appear in the press
It was found that virtually all the accusations were groundless - Ruth Smeeth, one of the most vociferous, was found to be FUNDED BY ISRAEL and was an admirer of Netanyahu - none of this appeared in the popular press, who were happy to take whatever they could throw at Corbyn in their orchestrated campaign to get rid of him
Despite clause 10 of the new definition, Israel has managed to make criticism of Israel "antisemitic" - this has backfired on the Jewish people who are now being accused of Israel's crimes, thanks to Israel's using them as human shields
Some of the most outspoken critics of Israel are Jews - Holocaust survivors and their descendants, ex Directors of Mossad, even a General in the Israeli Army - all have equated the behaviour of the present Government with that of the Nazis - they have been awarded the title "self-loathing Jews"
Israel is now regarded a criminal State by the U.N. - for its land stealing and its ethnic cleansing policies
The only thing that has kept it out of the International Criminal Courts is over 30 U.N. vetoes by the United States

The Labour Party was founded partially with support of Jews fleeing the European pogroms - it might be a coincidence that these accusations began so soon after Corbyn's announced support for the Palestinians - I'd welcome anybody's opinion on that one
Labour has nothing to prove, it's accusers have everything
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 10:24 AM

In a statement to the New Statesman, the organisation said: “For years, we’ve documented appalling crimes under international law and human rights violations meted out to Palestinians by members of the Israeli security forces, though the precise nature of the training offered to US police forces by Israeli officials is not something we’ve documented.

“Allegations that US police were taught tactics of ‘neck kneeling’ by Israeli secret services is not something we’ve ever reported and the article in question has rightly been amended to acknowledge that.

“The US police themselves have a longstanding record of using excessive force against members of the public - including Black Lives Matter protesters, something we reported on earlier this week.”

Peake herself has now retracted her earlier comments, saying in a statement: “I was inaccurate in my assumption of American police training and its sources. I find racism and antisemitism abhorrent and I in no way wished, nor intended, to add fodder to any views of the contrary.”


Ailbhe Rea is political correspondent at the New Statesman.

New Statesman - Amnesty Denial

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 10:25 AM

We won't shake off this bogus antisemitism malarkey by booting out people who are not antisemites, that's for sure. The snappy dogs just come back for more every time you do that, as happened time after time on Corbyn's watch. And they'll be back for more this time too. Pro-Israel lobbyists always see parties more to the left as the people who are more likely to question the unconditional support for the Israeli regime, so they're the ones they target. The Tories are safe because their friends-of-Israel setup is very right-wing, and the Tories in any case are far more inclined towards Islamophobia than to antisemitism. And the more you give the snappy dogs, the more they want. Starmer has made a massive mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:05 AM

Jim posted "For the record, the Parliamentary Labour Party is split down the middle over the sacking"

Is it split or is it two separate parties? Steve and pfr have posted in the past about the factions that appear in local party meetings. The vast majority of people in this country do not belong to any political party. They are mostly oblivious to the scheming and internecine warfare that goes on between people who are supposedly members of the same party.

I personally am in favour of having a form of PR in our elections. I have also said that I find it hard to imagine political parties being able to work constructively with each other. That is a long way off, seeing that even members of the same party find it so hard to work with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:29 AM

"Steve and pfr have posted in the past about the factions that appear in local party meetings

I could have, but I can't remember..
Are you sure it was me...???

I've never been a member of any party, but am an old best mate
of folks who are senior party officials in a west country town
I no longer live in...

I know I wouldn't last two minutes as a labour party member
before some local zealot got offended by me...

I'm best off persuading for the labour cause on my own terms, from the outside...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

During Corbyn’s leadership, the dissenters who undermined the leader were called everything from a pig to a dog by his supporters. Now they are themselves the dissenters, undermining the current leader, they seem to believe that’s OK, that they are beyond reproach. Words like ‘double’ and ‘standards’ spring readily to mind (others too, but those will suffice for now).

The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views. They don’t want the political dogma of the radical Left, they just want a left-of-centre party of Fairness For All. I’ll say it one last time, if there’s no compromise and the dissenters continue to undermine the Labour leadership, there will be no Labour government in the foreseeable future, probably ever. And that will be a tragedy. If you don’t believe it, you’re delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Apologies if I got that wrong pfr, my memory is not what it was.

But I think you got the gist of my post. As someone said to me, politics is a dirty business.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:42 AM

On an intellectual/ideological level, I'm stuck between BWM and Jim&Steve.

But I'm no fence sitter, I'm a pragmatic realist..

We can't wait forever, for the further far right inclined tories to see the light and leave power voluntarily,
or kill each other off with stupid careless covid social recklessness...

Any UK party calling itself "Labour" might be some improvement for us...??????????

[pause for grim laughter of despair...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM

"Is it split or is it two separate parties? "
There have been divisions between the warring groups, true, but to a degree, Brexit gave them a reason to bury them
Amnesty has reportedly denied that they reported that the knee-on--neck technique - that was a branch of Amnesty, they have not denied that Israel has trained American police forces - how could they - that has been a fact since at least 2013 when Amnesty first raised it   
This denial appeared in 'The Spectator', owned by the same press magnate who owns The Daily Telegraph
When Boris Johnson was editor he was accused of publishing a racist article aimed at Nigerians - a journal to be trusted on matters such as rcism

It is unclear exactly what Maxine Peake said about her statement, as far as I can find it has not been quoted in full - just the one line
That is beside the point - there is no question thet Israel has been training American police forces, just as there is no question that the technique that killed Floyd is used by Israel against the Palestinians
These are proven facts, whatever way you car to try to sidestep them

As far as political Parties being able to work with each other - following Brexit, political parties ban no longer get a consensus of their own elected members and are at odds with the rank and file membership
Starmer stands to become part of this ivory tower group who have been totally ignoring the wishes of those who elected them
That is the circus that Parliamentary Democracy has now openly become
Go ask the old-school Tories who were kicked out of office en-mass for not dancing to the music from the top
We have a hand-picked Cabinet dictatorship in Britain, as things stand at present
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM

"The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views."
On what grounds do you make this claim - I don't remember a referendum being held on the issue
It depends on you are in this divided nation (divided by Thatcher)
What right have you to describe left-wingers as indecent
I would describe those who stood behild Blair when he committed Britain to decades of war in the Middle East as thoroughly indecent
The same goes for those who stood silent as the situation was arrived at where working people could no longer afford to send their children to higher education, or as the gap between haves and have-nots steadily widened, or homelessness grew....... and all the rotten things that have ahppened to Britain over the last few decades   
The old Labour party was part and parcel of making Britain the unequal, dog-eat-dog, oil greedy nation it has become - just by saying nothing as it happened
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 12:26 PM

Jim - this is the article that appeared on my news feed a few nights back...

The Rise of the Cyber-Mercenaries 2018


You'll probably know better than me how reliable & trustworthy this writer is..

"Israel is a world leader in private cybertechnology,
with at least 300 firms covering everything from banking security to critical infrastructure defense.
But while most of these firms aim to protect companies from cyberattacks,
a few of them have taken advantage of the thin line
between defensive and offensive cybercapabilities to provide clients with more sinister services...

...Israel.. produces a steady supply of highly skilled cyberoperators who learn the craft during their military service
in one of the country’s elite signals intelligence units
—Unit 8200 is the best known among them
—and then go on to work in the private sector. "

Funny how the UK right always get such fast intelligence
on Labour party membership tweeting history...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 01:15 PM

I have no idea how accurate that article is PFR - there's no reason to doubt it
Israel is now the major supplier of military drones

A CONVENIENTLY FORGOTTEN FACT
It says the deal fell through because of "costs" - it transpires it was abandoned because they didn't want "the blecks" to have them if the regime ever fell

From The Christian Science Monitor, 2013
Does Israel have chemical weapons?
Israel signed the global treaty banning the production or use of chemical weapons. But Israel never ratified it. Israel will not confirm or deny the existence of chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons.
Israeli workers are seen at the Shalon gas mask factory in Kiryat Gat, Israel. The U.S.-Russian plan to dismantle Syria's chemical weapons is drawing some unwanted attention on Israel's own alleged chemical stockpile.
September 16, 2013
By Josef Federman Associated Press
JERUSALEM
The US-Russian plan to dismantle Syria's chemical weapons is drawing attention to Israel's own suspected chemical stockpile and could raise pressure on the Jewish state to come clean about its capabilities.
Israel signed the landmark international treaty banning the production or use of chemical weapons two decades ago, but it is among a handful of nations that have never ratified the deal. While foreign experts widely believe that Israel likely possesses a stockpile of chemical and biological weapons, Israeli officials refuse to confirm or deny the existence of any such arsenal.
They say the key issue right now is Syria, not Israel.
In a radio interview Monday, former Defense Minister Amir Peretz declined to discuss the country's chemical weapons capabilities but said the international community's attitude toward Israel is "different" from Syria.
"It's clear to everyone that (Israel) is a democratic, responsible regime," he told Israel Radio. "I very much hope and am certain that the international community will not make this a central question and we will maintain the status quo."
‘It’s way past time to try something new’: The push to defund police

Israel has been similarly vague about foreign reports of a nuclear arsenal, a policy of ambiguity aimed at deterring its enemies. But following the weekend deal between the U.S. and Russia to eliminate Syria's chemical weapons by mid-2014, voices have emerged calling on the government to take similar steps.
"I do believe that the Israeli government should be open about this issue, should say what arsenal, if any, it does have and should strive for an international agreement to keep all these kinds of weapons outside of the Middle East," said opposition lawmaker Dov Khenin.
The liberal daily Haaretz wrote in an editorial Monday that the chemical disarmament of Syria gives Israel an opportunity to finally ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention.
"It would be a pity if in the future Israel finds itself in the position of Syria — forced to sign the convention under international pressure," the newspaper said.
Paul Hirschson, a spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, said Israel could not ratify the treaty in such an uncertain environment. "These things are regional and we're not going to go out there on our own," he said.
There seems to be a consensus among foreign experts that Israel has likely developed an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons over the years.
"Israel's lack of transparency has led to a continued suspicion that a chemical weapons program is in place, although we are unable to confirm this or provide any further details," Emily Chorley, a chemical weapons analyst at IHS Jane's, said in an email.
In a report this month, Foreign Policy magazine published what it said was a secret 1983 CIA document outlining evidence that Israel possessed a chemical weapons stockpile of unknown size, likely developed in the 1970s out of fear its neighbors were acquiring such weapons.
"Several indicators lead us to believe that they have available to them at least persistent and nonpersistent nerve agents, a mustard agent, and several riot-control agents, matched with suitable delivery systems," the document says.
The article's author, military historian Matthew M. Aid, said the nonpersistent agent was almost certainly sarin, the same chemical that the Syrian army is suspected of using in an Aug. 21 attack that allegedly killed more than 1,400 civilians and triggered the international response. It was unclear what the persistent nerve agent might be.
Chemicals are labeled persistent and nonpersistent depending on how long they last.
The document said Israel had possessed special testing equipment since the early 1970s and "possible tests were detected in January 1976." It also said a "probable CW nerve agent production facility and a storage facility" were identified in 1982 in the southern Israeli town of Dimona, home to Israel's secretive nuclear program. It said other weapons production capability was believed to exist in Israel's chemical industry.
If Israel does have an active chemical weapons program, it likely involves the Israel Institute for Biological Research, a secretive facility in the Tel Aviv suburb of Nes Ziona that is under the jurisdiction of the prime minister's office. The facility's website describes itself as a "governmental, applied research institute specializing in the fields of biology, medicinal chemistry and environmental sciences." Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office declined comment.
Israel says it has never used chemical weapons on the battlefield, though in one famous incident, Israeli agents attempted to assassinate Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal by poisoning him in neighboring Jordan. The agents were captured, however, and Israel was forced to turn over the antidote.
Israel has also drawn war crimes accusations for its use of white phosphorous during an offensive in the Gaza Strip in early 2009. White phosphorous can be used legally as an illuminating agent, but is forbidden from use as a weapon. The substance can be dangerous if used in civilian areas because it can cause severe burns. Earlier this year, the Israeli military said it was halting its use of the material.
The use of chemical weapons is an emotional topic in Israel, where memories remain fresh of the Holocaust, when countless numbers of Jews were killed in Nazi gas chambers.
Since the outbreak of the civil war in neighboring Syria two and a half years ago, Israel has repeatedly warned of the dangers of Syria's chemical arsenal. Israeli leaders fear that Syrian nonconventional weapons could either be fired into Israel, or slip into the hands of Hezbollah and other hostile groups battling inside Syria.
Hirschson said attempts by Syria or any other country to link Israeli compliance with Syria's were disingenuous efforts to divert attention away from the real issue.
"I don't think Syria is in any position to tell anyone what to do," he said. "We have never threatened anybody with chemical weapons, never used them, and they have."

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 01:59 PM

”The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views."
On what grounds do you make this claim - I don't remember a referendum being held on the issue. It depends on you are in this divided nation (divided by Thatcher)“

Well, Jim, I live in the UK, I have a wide circle of friends, many of whom are Labour voters. Some - a small number - are what I would describe as radical Lefties, most fall into the category I described, they have middle-of-the-road views very much akin to mine. It seems a pretty reasonable to assume that would more or less hold true in a wider setting. If you think I’m wrong, give us the evidence.

”What right have you to describe left-wingers as indecent”

I didn’t. You’ve just introduced that concept - very low and dishonest of you, Jim.

”I would describe those who stood behild Blair when he committed Britain to decades of war in the Middle East as thoroughly indecent”

So would I.

”The same goes for those who stood silent as the situation was arrived at where working people could no longer afford to send their children to higher education, or as the gap between haves and have-nots steadily widened, or homelessness grew....... and all the rotten things that have ahppened to Britain over the last few decades   
The old Labour party was part and parcel of making Britain the unequal, dog-eat-dog, oil greedy nation it has become - just by saying nothing as it happened“

Nothing I’d disagree with you about there Jim.

But what, pray, does any of that have to do with my suggestion that, by undermining the Leadership, ELECTED BY THE PARTY MEMBERS, the dissenters and underminers are risking destroying Labour’s chances of victory at the next GE? The Party should be big enough and adult enough to accommodate a range of views, and to reach agreement on its attitudes and policies by a process of discussion, negotiation, consensus, and compromise. And those who disagree with the final decision at the end of that process should be adult enough to accept it, and get behind the Leadership in order to rid the nation of the scourge of this corrupt Tory government.

You’re pulling your usual stunt of dragging out every red-herring you can think of in order to muddy the waters, and try to stifle the voice of one whose views don’t mirror yours.

It won’t wash, Jim. You’ve been rumbled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 02:54 PM

"Well, Jim, I live in the UK, I have a wide circle of friends, many of whom are Labour voter"
So ?
You didn't say anything about a lot of friends - you actually said
"The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views."
Do you actually know this or did you make it up ?
You made the statement - you give us the evidence
"The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views."
Whick implies that "lefries aren't ordinary and don't have sensible views - otherwise, why make such a cliam
What is sensible about sitting on the fence whie your party supports a line fed by a criminal state - or all the other things I listed
Pretty 'insensible' to the suffering of those who elected them, in my opinion
"So would I."
So why was Blair noth thrown aout on his arse at the earliest opportunity-?
" the dissenters and underminers are risking destroying Labour’s chances of victory at the next GE? "
Which totaly ignores my point
What should anybody want to support a party who sacks his minister for telling the truth - do you claim that Britons wants to be governed by such a leader - or are you caiming Israel to be innocent of what she calamed they were doing - were they not traning American police forces to The vicious ?
The Minnesota Force is one of those has now admitted having backed away from the tactics because of the number of deaths

Why should Labour members gt behind a leadership who supports such behaviour - because they are the leaders - right or wrong - surely not?

The only rd herrings here are above - you have yet to respond to a single point - you have hidden behind "but they are the leaders" from the word go - whatever happened to principles and honesty ?

In essence, by sacking this principled lady, this nasty piece of work has accepted that The Labour Party is riddled with Jew-haters - he has played to the bumwipe press, The Friends of Israel and the Ethnic Clesnsing regime that has dragged the Labour Party's name into the slime
Not a bad days work for someone who hasn't been in office long
"Rumbled" - don't you wish !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 03:48 PM

Here we go again.

I’ve made my point, several times, about disunity and disloyalty within the Labour Party. That’s my view. Now you rant on, be my guest, drag out your red-herrings, confuse issues, talk to people as though they’re idiots, playing Mr. Know-It-All, refusing to allow others an opinion - that’s your standard MO and I’ve got more wick in my lamp than to get dragged in to another of your interminable battles.

You certainly know how to piss people off. You’re talking to yourself from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:12 PM

Well.. this just demonstrates in a nutshell how it will be extremely difficult
to regain the mass of working class Labour voters,
who abandoned the party in favour of the easily digestible rhetoric
of populist right wing ukip and tories...

The word "socialist" has now been successfully demonised forever beyond any positive use...

When these new working class conservative's relise they were hoodwinked by boris's tories,
they will probably be even more likely to turn to the easy solutions and scapegoats of the far right,
than the progressive policies of Labour...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:51 PM

I don't think that most Labour voters are are "ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views".

I think that most people, however they vote, are "ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views."

It is not most people that cause trouble though. It is those that are intransigent in their views and unwilling to accept that other people's opinions matter too who create the rifts. As we see all too often on here.

As I keep saying. Compromise and cooperation is what is needed. When the oceans and the earth are worn out or when the air becomes unbeatable it will not matter who you vote for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM

"The vast majority of Labour voters aren’t ‘Lefties’, they are ordinary people with decent, sensible, middle-of-the road views."
On what grounds do you make this claim

The Labour Party has around 580,000 registered members but received in excess of 10 million votes in the 2019 general election. The Party is split between those on the left and those who are more moderate but I would suggest that Party members, whatever their position, are more likely to be left leaning than those not in the party. If Labour is to win power, it will need to attract the floating voters who, last time, voted for Boris. As they have voted for the Tories at least once, they could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as 'Lefties'. I think that there are sufficient grounds to make the claim that the vast majority of Labour voters aren't 'Lefties'.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 02:29 AM

Thanks Dave and Doug - couldn’t put it better myself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 02:46 AM

Unbeatable should read unbreathable. The air is already unbeatable:-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM

"I’ve made my point, several times, about disunity and disloyalty within the Labour Party. "
"My party right or wrong" is not a message I would wish to draw support for Labour on - the Labour Party had adopted wrong far to "right" (literally) policies for far too long - that peaked under Blair when he sold |Britain to George Dubya's oil wars adventures and began filling body bags with young British men and women
Is it a betrayal to suggest that should never have been suported and that all those left wingers who took to the streets were 'traitors to the cause'
The Party was wrong then, and the people who took Labour there - Blair's Babes and Babesses, are now scrambling to get into power - New Labour hasn't gone away - sacking ministers for telling the truth is holding the door open for them

Corbyn was inexperienced and he made mistakes, but you could see him growing into office as fast as the daisies in our garden - hi main strength from day one was that he had the strength of Labour principles behind him
If Labour is going to mean anything it has to put a huge gap between itself and its opponents - New Labour was indistinguishable from the Tories - if you voted them into office you would get the same policies in a different wrapping Corbyn offered a clean break, which was why so many flocked back in their thousands
Now Baccie's flavour-of-the-month is offering them a take it or leave it path back to the good old New Labour days

I notice nobody here has said that Labour has an antisemitism problem - Starmer has suggested that it has by sacking a principled minister for telling it as it is
That will drive out all those who came back and it will attract no new blood to replace them

Winning elections isn't enough; people have to be won back for an ideal - not promises of quick-fixes
The last election was a freak - it wasn't won on support for policies - it was won on 'Brexit fatigue' people wanted it to be over, one way or the other - that's not going to happen, of course
Corbyn's crowd offered a change - that is still a possibility and will remain so until his supporters throw in the towel and piss off

I cast my very first vote for a Prime Minister - Harold Wilson was our M.P.
I went on a massive lobby of Parliament one, organised by Y.S. and other groups (on rising youth unemployment, (particularly virulent on Merseyside)
As Wilson's most available constituent, I was invited into his office as a representative of the Merseyside group; it turned out to be my first experience of a slick, 'career politician' who spoke quickly and said nothing - polito-speak
When I was interview later by a leftie reporter I was totally unable to give one positive, straightforward statement Wilson had made - just empty 'shit-and-shine'
Politics have that down to a fine art nowadays - that's what has to change
Sacking people for telling the truth ain't gonna do that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:19 AM

I am with Backwoodsman, Doug and DtG on this row. I kept thinking of that little rhyme:

Here lies the body of old John Gray
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right - dead right - as he walked along
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

Unless Labour can get elected, it is almost powerless, though I would say Starmer is making a good fist of the limited power that comes with opposition. He is not alone: the SNP are also having some success in challenging Johnson in PMQ. But in the end, it is always the government that holds the power. And, for Labour, as the review and cliche has it, there is a mountain to climb.   Having the largest membership of any party in Europe is of little value if no-one except party members vote for you. By all accounts, this was how Cummings got the Brexit vote he wanted: do not concentrate on those who will always vote for or always against you: all your attention needs to be on the undecided. It is a hard truth that Labour could in a sense afford to lose virtually all its members: it is far less than the number of votes they lost by. 'According to the 2011 census, 263,346 people answered "Jewish" to the voluntary question on religion, compared with 259,927 in the previous count of 2001. However, this final figure is considered an undercount' (Wikipedia). So it is around 50% of the party membership. Finding a way to make peace - or at least an accommodation - is important. And, as I said, I know traditional Labour voters who didn't because of the anti-Semitism row, so this argument has a 'voting power equivalent' of the same scale as the entire membership.

Climbing the mountain starts now, not just before the next election.

Now it is also true, as Jim was arguing, that there is no point getting Labour elected if it has jettisoned all its principles to do so. But I don't believe that would happen. In any case, when I come to cast my vote, I decide whether they have so weakened their principles that I vote elsewhere, or that they retain enough that they still get my vote. In the meantime, I think they are right to concentrate on what it will take to climb the mountain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:59 AM

"Unless Labour can get elected, it is almost powerless, "
Repeating this without addressing the fact that unless Labour is elected to bring about a change is becoming a bit of a meaningless mantra folks
People need to stop being asked to vote for a party and be asked to vote for genuine policies
Labour has no right to demand party loyalty any more - it has betrayed that loyalty over and over and over again - Wilson, Kinnock, Callahan, Blair, Brown - all Tories in everything but name
Why should people be asked to continue to do that ?
LABOUR HAS BEEN IN POWER - EACH TIME THEY HAVE SOLD OUT
This time, this feller has dropped out of honest politics before he started, which has scuppered your 'mountain climbing promises'

A simple question Mac - Baccie won't answer -you try
What sign has Starer given that he is any different than anything that has gone before, and where does his "sacking for telling the truth" strategy fit into this ?
Your time starts ........ now!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:07 AM

Can I just add
When this crisis is finally over, Britain, along with the rest of the world, will have been left to clean up the mess
Those in charge are going to demand we (the ordinary voters) are going to have to tighten our belts, bite the bullet, take on the burden.... whatever phrase they choose for making sacrifices and accepting what is thrown at us)
Brexit ("the People's Decision") will be their trump card, even though it is not going to happen for years
Their aim will be to return things back to the way they were   
Starmer has already offered Labour's full co-operation
Is that really what Britain needs ?
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:21 AM

I have a lot of criticisms of New Labour even if we leave out the obvious Iraq War matters. But given a choice of New Labour or the Conservatives I would go new Labour, because of things like the introduction of the minimum wage and Sure Start.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:34 AM

"The Party is split between those on the left and those who are more moderate..."

There's so much wrong with this statement that I don't know where to begin.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:38 AM

“It is not most people that cause trouble though. It is those that are intransigent in their views and unwilling to accept that other people's opinions matter too who create the rifts. As we see all too often on here.“

And there is everything right in this statement, on every level.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:41 AM

Why shouuld eiher be a choice Mac, expectantly when they are two sides of the same coin ?
The aim of both was'is to preserve the status quo
Surely there is no better time to demand a new broom - both for the Labour Party and for the country
Even the few principled politiciians there are have admitted that Parliament is little more than an exclusive Gentlemans' Club
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM

Why shouuld eiher be a choice Mac

I can only select between the choices on offer. There may be twenty things I would like a party to do, but if a certain party will do one, and the other none, I will vote to get the one.

What I want is to get as many of the "twenty positions" into power as possible. In the ideal world, yes, I'd love all twenty to be elected.   But if I can only get 10, 5 or even 1 into power, I would rather that than insist on all 20 if it means I don't get any.

That we differ on this is not a problem, and I am not going to argue about it. We must each take the consequences of our stance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:24 AM

"The Party is split between those on the left and those who are more moderate..."

There's so much wrong with this statement that I don't know where to begin.


OK Steve, let's change that to "The Party includes those on the left and those who are more moderate..."

If you still find that contentious, let's delete the statement altogether. My argument still stands.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:35 AM

"I can only select between the choices on offer. "
Yeah - you can get Heinz soup or Campbell's soup - fine, if you want soup]
Voting for Parties hasn't worked - it's about time people were given the opportunity of voting for policies - for genuine change..... anything but the same old, same old merry-go-round

"The Party includes those on the left and those who are more moderate..."
Same old rightist crop Doug
What it "immoderate" about left wing policies ?
As I have always understood them, they have always been about fairness and equality of opportunity, (work, education health, housing... etc), anti racism and a voice in the workplace
Take you pick - which of these is "immoderate"?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:42 AM

Jim,

If you still find that contentious, let's delete the statement altogether

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

Well, let's take that well-known "moderate," Keir Starmer. This "moderate" has made an unprincipled and opportunistic decision to sack a left-wing member of his cabinet on false pretences. His decision appears to have gone down rather well with plenty of other "moderates," including some in this thread. If being a "moderate" permits you to do things in that way, then I'm proud to count myself as not among those "moderate" ranks. Oh, and that other Labour "moderate," Tony Blair, another chap who had no time for the left in his party, dragged this country into a war on a lie, causing death and misery to hundreds of thousands of people. And there are plenty of "moderates" who are way to frightened to lift a finger against Benjamin Netanyahu's vicious regime. I bet those Palestians just love all these western "moderates." If "moderate" means ditching your principles in order to "become electable," then things have really come to a pretty pass, haven't they? And I'll remind you also that many organisations that fight for justice, equality and human rights on this planet are replete with "non-moderate" lefties...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:53 AM

Don't mess with my two to too...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 06:09 AM

"If you still find that contentious, let's delete the statement altogether"
Thanks Doug
Te problem is it's become to regular
Immoderacy is a feature of all politics (and religion, for that matter)
The left can be immoderate - the right gave us Thatchers army against the miners, Tommy Robinson's scumbags attacking the police and the two bobbies who jammed Blair peach's head against the corner of a wall and killed him
When it comes to political policies, I see nothing moderate about turnng families out of their homes when they are unable to pay rents, or using Xenophobia to win elections
You judge Parties by their overall objectives, not when their exponents overstep the merk
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 06:09 AM

So you approve of disunity and disloyalty then, Steve? Like Sunny Jim, you’d rather have this disgusting Tory government than unite behind the Labour leader (who, I would remind you once again was democratically elected by a majority of party members) in order to fight and win at the next GE, whenever that may be.

It’s unfortunate that RL-B got the bullet but, knowing full well that the Tory propaganda-machine weaponised ‘Labour anti-semitism’ so successfully during the 2019 GE Campaign, and will use it again given the opportunity, she should have perhaps thought a bit more carefully before tweeting something that any fule no would be seized upon by the Party’s enemies whether it be true or not, spun, and used as yet more anti-Labour propaganda.

What a very strange state of affairs, where those who claim, loud and proud, to be ‘the best kind’ of Socialists have so little interest in their Party becoming electable, and would rather put one MP’s personal fortunes ahead of election success.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

" Sunny Jim"
Tsk, tsk, still my Party right or right,
Snideswipes are no substitute for rational arguments
No Party that tolerates a leader who sacks collegues for telling the truth is worth electing
For cry out loud, how often has Johnson been slated for dishonesty - now we have Labour supporters demanding that we vote for the same kind of dishonesty - what kind of double--standards are they ?
A party must earn loyalty - it's not like money which can be inherited by the most worthless benefactor
Labour can no longer claim to be a socialist party - there lies the main problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:30 AM

i wouldn't doubt anyone's desire to get rid of the tories. i don't think any of us would rather we didn't live within a different political system and atmosphere. it's depressing enough to read about the old anti-semitism shite yet again but even more depressing to read folk with good intent returning to the endless squabbling about purity/pragmatism. the same old self-indulgent splitting that has led us to where we are now. i've done my share of stomping off in a huff but never really deviated from my peace, green, socialism etc opinions.....(shoot me now) i like reading alistair campbell in the new european - you can't really argue with him -we have to win an election or 2.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:41 AM

Until now the party has shown good unity under Starmer. If you want to foment disunity you can do it in the disreputable and opportunistic manner that Starmer has just displayed. Not an especially healing move, was it? And there is a bottom line here: Maxine Peake's remark may have been inaccurate but the broader picture of Israel indulging in the training she spoke of is true. That was a criticism of Israeli government policy. Therefore it was in no way antisemitic, not even remotely. Starmer wanted Becky out and he used this false pretext to do it. Perhaps you'd also approve of him selling his own kids in order "to make himself electable..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:47 AM

Perhaps you'd also approve of him selling his own kids in order "to make himself electable..."

Now why did that instantly bring an image to my mind of Michael Gove giving a beefburger to his child at the height of the CJD crisis?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM

Wasn't that the little bespectacled Tory squirt who Steve Bell depicted as a pimple on Thatcher's nose? Ah yes...Gummer...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

Yes, Gummer, I think.   I didn't want to examine the mental image too closely! :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 08:15 AM

Steve, you have absolutely no more idea of what has gone on within the dark recesses of Party HQ any more than I do, and I have none. It’s possible that she was behaving naively when she re-tweeted Maxine Peake’s tweet, it’s equally perfectly possible that she deliberately set this whole situation up to embarrass Starmer. You don’t know, just as I don’t know, what were the exchanges between Rebecca Long-Bailey and Keir Starmer that preceded her dismissal but, unlike the Corbynistas, I’m prepared to accept that Starmer is the boss, and it’s his call.

What I do know, and what you, as an intelligent person, should know, is that Rebecca Long-Bailey, in full knowledge of the devastation the ‘Labour antisemitism’ Tory-led propaganda wrought on the Party in the lead-up to, and during, the 2019 General Election, chose to re-tweet a reference to Israel that would provide ammunition for the Tories, and was almost guaranteed to incite yet another round of ‘Look over there - Labour anti-semitism!’ propaganda. Whether what she posted was anti-Semitic or not, it’s an inescapable fact that it provided the Right with a stick to beat the Party with. It was either a lack of judgment on her part or, as a Corbynista, it was a deliberate act intended to undermine the current Leadership. Either way, it required action.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 08:26 AM

"Until now the party has shown good unity under Starmer. "
The deputy leader of the Labour Party (Long's flatmate) is one of those opposing her sacking - the Labour Party is divided at the top

"Rebecca Long-Bailey, in full knowledge of the devastation the ‘Labour antisemitism’"
Are you suggestion that the Labour Party has a problem with antisemitism, if not, are the accusations not worth opposing because "the Tories might use them"
Where does that leave nationalisation, or equality of opportunity, or homes for all, or a right to health for all..... and all the other policies the Tories are likely to use ?
Maybe we abandon those and just accept policies the Tories won't use ?
The first of those points is the most immediate but all the rest logically follow
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 08:50 AM

Jim, if you’re going to quote me, please give the complete quote - don’t just select a small part which you can pretend means something it doesn’t. The full quote is...

”What I do know, and what you, as an intelligent person, should know, is that Rebecca Long-Bailey, in full knowledge of the devastation the ‘Labour antisemitism’ Tory-led propaganda wrought on the Party in the lead-up to, and during, the 2019 General Election, chose to re-tweet a reference to Israel that would provide ammunition for the Tories, and was almost guaranteed to incite yet another round of ‘Look over there - Labour anti-semitism!’ propaganda“

My use of the term ‘propaganda’ makes my meaning perfectly clear. You’ve chosen to take a few words from it and, in the most deceitful way possible, put your own interpretation on it to mean something that was neither intended, nor exists in fact.

Do please read posts in full, and think a bit, before you start up with your rabid pit-bull routine.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 09:11 AM

So, John, we'd all better completely shut up about the murky dealings between the Israeli secret service with US police forces, not to speak of the horrors that the Israeli regime has visited on the Palestinian minority, lest we get tarred with the antisemitism brush. Game, set and match, then, to the Board Of Deputies and the other pro-Israel lobby groups, including all those "friends of Israel" party cabals. Except that they'll be back for more, of course. Even the disreputable John Mann and Margaret Hodge have crawled out the woodwork. Don't mention the occupation...don't mention ethnic cleansing in the Negev...don't mention the illegal settlements on all the best land with the best water...don't mention Gaza...don't mention IDF snipers murdering children on the border...mustn't get called antisemitic and make ourselves "less electable..." First things first, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM

Oh dear Steve, not you too, pretending I said things that I didn’t?

In the LP’s present situation, it can’t do anything about anything - it was defeated at the 2019 GE by a landslide and is impotent to defeat the worst Tory government in living memory on any issue. I’m astonished you need to be reminded of that fact.

Of course things should be discussed, but in the right way and in the right place. For an MP to shoot their mouth off on social media about a subject that, amongst others, caused Labour to suffer one of its worst defeats ever, and bring down its leader, is either naively irresponsible or deliberately destructive.

Social media is not the right place. Parliament is.

And please, Steve, don’t resort to Jim’s low tactics of pretending I said something I didn’t. I really did expect better of you, for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 09:48 AM

Well I have nothing to do with any social media, but, let's face it, twitter is a prime platform for politics now whether we like it or not.

"For an MP to shoot their mouth off on social media about a subject that, amongst others, caused Labour to suffer one of its worst defeats ever..."

The subject you presumably refer to is antisemitism. One more time. Neither Maxine Peake's remarks nor Rebecca's response contained any antisemitism. You can opine about their judgement (as long as we don't mention Gendrick or Cummings...), but that much is crystal clear. You seem to be arguing for the gagging of any discussion of an horrendous Israeli regime. Well, unless you can tell me what you think is the right way and the right place. As this is a party issue, not Parliament, eh? What price robust and honest politics if we can't mention Israel, without looking over our shoulders?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 10:17 AM

When will you and your mate Jim start to actually read and understand what I write, instead of putting Your own highly-spun interpretation on it? Comment on the facts of what I say, not what you try to pretend I say. You really should be better than that, Steve.

Please show me where I have said that Long-Bailey’s and Peake’s tweets were anti-Semitic. Here’s a clue - I haven’t. I haven’t passed any judgment, I have only referred to claims and judgments by others that they’re anti-Semitic.

I’m not arguing for the ‘Gagging of any discussion of a horrendous Israeli regime’, that, once again is your spun, distorted interpretation of what I’m saying, which I answered in my last post, paragraph 3.

I’ll say it again - I want this foul Tory government kicked out and replaced by a Labour government. I want that for the good of the people of the United Kingdom, people who have suffered and whose lives have been impoverished by ten years of Tory mis-rule. But, if Labour is to take power, it has once and for all to rid itself of undeserved labels - and it won’t do that by providing ammunition for the Right-Wing Propaganda Machine. You saw how shit sticks during the last election - and it will stick again unless Labour tread very carefully.

Now, if anyone wants to discuss what I’ve actually said! feel free. But if you think I’m going to waste my Sunday afternoon, or any other time, arguing with deceitful people who twist my words, or pretend I said something I didn’t say, fuggeddit.

Get honest, and stop the deceitful horse-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 10:58 AM

there is an opinion i've often heard - usually from ukip/right wing types - or folk with just a passing interest in politics who like to think they are too smart to be persuaded by any politician - 'all just in it for themselves' and 'those politicians are all the same' it's just lazy and media driven nonsense. if anyone can't see the difference between decent politicians and the current government then they are eejits or worse. when folk on the left descend to the same level, condemning them all as shameless tories they are just doing the establishment job for them . part of the problem or part of the solution?
[ also hear a lot about what is going on in the labour party but i don't know how much contributors to the discussion have a real and current knowledge of that issue. it should go without saying that you shouldn't believe all you read in the papers. i rejoined when corbyn got the job and back the manifesto of the election before last. as did everyone in our branch, including our MP sue hayman - who worked hard for JC though she had proposed owen smith. i disagreed with her on stuff though was happy to work for her as a good woman and a hard-working mp. it's tragic that we now have a clueless lout elected in her place.

we can choose between self-indulgence and solidarity . in the end if we can't take down this government it really does not matter how we interpret the current spat. there have been so many similar stories in the past- so many splits -we need to grow up and start behaving like a party ready to govern

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:19 AM

" Here’s a clue - I haven’t."
Put it another way then since you dodged the question
What reason do you have to believe she is ?
She has been sacked from her job for this specifically - if there is no evidence that she isn't that sacking was unfair

Not "me and my mate" as you dishonest;y claim - this sacking has led to a split in the Labour party - it includes the deputy lead
Matybe you meannt "meand mu mate, the deputy leader and all the other members now up in arms over the sacking ?

I read exactly what you wrote and am still waiting for an answer to my question
Your somewhat ---- can't think of a word - non-answer to my antisemitism question leads me to think you might be siding with those who claim Labour does have an antisemitism problem

There is nothing "self-indulgent" anout expecting honesty from a Party Leader - we've already got a dishonest prime minister, why try to replace him with another ?
I answered your original quote in full, by the way - I repeat - why the hell should any party abandon its principles over something might use something might use?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:26 AM

If it's ok with the good socialists,

I'd reluctantly rather take a Starmer Labour Government shit sandwich,

than a never ending tory diet of nothing else on the plate but shit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

If that's the only alternative PFR - why vote ?
Maybe the Anarchists were right - it only encourages them
I belive that if Starmer is allowed to get away with the way he has behaved all the new members that Cornyn brought back in will walk away
Maybe Blair's Babes are happy with that - back to a Government of self-serving parliamentarians fighting for the status quo
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:51 AM

i don't know many folk who are willing to walk away. as i say, i've done it in the past but won't again - not till we have the luxury of choosing an alternative to a beaten tory party. ideologically i am better suited to the greens but i want to try to make a difference. the current argument does not matter in the long run, we have been here many times before

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM

Jim - please don't start on the "don't bother to vote" bollox..

We are mature life experienced adults, not adolescent students...

I hold you in high esteem for your political analysis, research skills, and amazing memory for relevant info..

I welcome and value your political commentary, as if you are a real life mentor for me..

But you do tend to go a bit too extreme and unrealistic
in your conclusions and manifesto...

It should be a simple enough obvious goal - get the tories out...

.. and keep 'em out..

Without any of us lefties kicking an unforgivable home goal,
by enabling the far right to replace the tories in Govt...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:58 AM

we should also remember that good mps like clive lewis and chris williamson have also lost their jobs through this long-running argument. labour continually lose out to these smear tactics and must find a smarter way to fight back.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:15 PM

"Jim - please don't start on the "don't bother to vote" bollox.."
It was rhetorical - I don't believe it to be necessary anyway
Keeping the Tories out is a negative aim - to be honest, the alternatives aare just as bad, if not worse, as things stannd - Ukik is still simmering in the background, The English Defence Leage only has to respectabalise as the B.N.P. tried to, and they could take a lump o the Populist vote
WE has all this a few years ago in Ireland when a nutty returned Yank, Peter Casey, shouted "Travellers" and came second in the Presidential race
These are dangerous times
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:26 PM

i'd say ukip are just about done in the UK - all reverted to supporting the tory party, who are far more effective at being far=right wreckers. when it comes to the wee far right groups i remember tommy robinson got 2 and a half thousands votes as a north west candidate in the last european election and lost his deposit (i've never seen the other union rep at my work look so pissed off) at the same election majid majid the green mayor of sheffield won a european seat with over 200,000 votes. so there is hope - though not too much in west cumbria, sadly

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

I can't say that Starmer would have been my choice, he wouldn't.

However he got the job and has to try and steer the Labour party to power. Playing the role of opposition is neither use nor ornament if you want things to change.

By sacking Long-Bailey he was making a statement "I'm in charge" If you wish to see a Labour Government next time round you, me and the rest of us need to back him this early on in his fight to regain power for Labour.

Squabbling amongst yourselves only serves to aid the conservatives.

PS I have no doubt I will be accused of all sorts of things because of my post today.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:25 PM

Well what "subject" did you mean, John, when you said they were "shooting their mouths off" if it wasn't antisemitism? You said it was the subject (among others) that precipitated Labour's disastrous defeat. The subject that the two women were "shooting their mouths off" about was the dirty dealings between US police and the Israeli secret service. That is not the antisemitism issue that helped Labour to lose, except in the minds of the duplicitous. In fact, it is not antisemitism at all. By conflating that with antisemitism ("the subject," as you said), you have got into bed with the right of the party and the Board Of Deputies. Game, set and match to them, until the next time... Fair-minded lefties tried for years to defend Corbyn against bogus and hypocritical accusations of his being complicit with alleged antisemites in the party. So now we've accepted that his adversaries have been right all the time and that we can add Rebecca and Maxine to the long list of Labour antisemites, have we? Jim's spot on. There's little point trying to elect one unprincipled git to replace another unprincipled git. Still, four years is a long time in politics. Just don't delude yourself that this kind of move will make Starmer more electable. The left are a key part of Labour and always have been, and this kind of disreputable dealing won't make them go away.

Maybe from now on there'll be a spineless sign up in the shadow cabinet meeting room: "Whatever you do, never mention Israel..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

Go along with all of that Steve
I don't believe that the accusations of antisemitism lost Labour the alection; the tragedy is that the term has bee so deliberately misused by those defending Israel that nobody cares any more - the Jewish People are beins blamed for Israel's criminal human rights breaches by all sides - the Arabs talk about 'the Jews' (they always have understandably) genuine Antisemites use Israel's behaviour to attack the Jewish People and Israel claims criticism of their policies and "antisemitic" - in essence, blaming The Jews
The sharp rise in Antisemitism, particularly in the European States that have swung to the right, is the consequence
A half decent Labour Leadership would clarify exactly why these accusations are false; Corbyn's enquiries proved pretty conclusively that they were

This situation is set fair to worsen in the near future after Israel's announcement that plan to annex the illegal settlements is to go ahead from now on
THis is going to galvanise the B.D.S. supporters into action, which will increse attacks on the Lanour Pary
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:10 PM

It's with regret that I am cancelling my membership of the Labour party. It is not Just the Becky issue but that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Although I know that it may be a futile gesture, I am sending my subscriptions to the Green party from now on. We need to realise that care of the planet is far more important than who gets the money or who criticises Israel

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM

Well, Dave, it stinks. But I'm staying in the party for the time being. Becky and Angela Rayner (who opposes the sacking, by the way) I saw as a bright future for an honest, leftie party. I still live in hope. Shall there be womanly times, or shall we die?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:03 PM

Starmer may well be another seat warming placeholder leader...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:05 PM

I agree, and I think I hope so, if you see what I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:28 PM

Unless the membership start to show some unity and loyalty to the leader, get over their factionism and divisions, and at least try to look like a party that knows where it’s going and how to get there, it wont make a scrap of difference who that leader is, there will still be a Tory government after the next election and into the foreseeable future after that. The LP will have thrown itself under the Tory Propaganda bus, and the members will have nobody to blame but themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:07 AM

Unless the leadership sorts itself out as to whether it is going to be a genuine alternative with alternative policies it will not get and does not deserve loyalty
You have declined to say whether there is evidence of antisemitism in the Labour Party, which leads me to belive that you don't; in which case, you are prepared to accept a dishonestly ruthless leader who is prepared to throw his colleagues and his party's raison d'être to the wolves for the sake of political expediency and career - no different to Johnson's 'Night of the log knives' in the 'Battle of Brexit'
Unity is meaningless and valueless unless it is for a purpose - that purpose was intended to change society for all - not to back up all the shitty injustices that have been heaped on the less-well-off - rising inequality, working people's children's exclusion from higher education, the loss of a voice in the workplace, the transformation of homes into speculative investments
WE have gradually seen the star in Labour's crown, The National Health Service turned into a beurocratic, paper-pushing nightmare carrying a begging-bowl - Labour's career politicians have done little to offer any opposition to this
Instead, the members stood by while Blair committed Britain to decades of oil wars and far too many of its parliamentarians got their fingers burned in taking back-handers and fiddling expenses
Under you right wing - Labour became indistinguishable from its supposed opponents
Now you are demanding Loyalty for someone who has come into leadership quite happy to join those accusing labour of having an "antisemitism problem" by sacking one of his ministers and splitting the parliamentary party
All the support 'Labour out of loyalty and things might change' crap in the world isn't even going to begin to put things right
Yes, Johnson has to be opposed, but Starmer has made it quite clear he isn't going to do it - he is a manipulator and a bully
Labour would have to have suicidal tendencies to accept this behaviour
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:42 AM

Labour would have to have suicidal tendencies to accept this behaviour

Sorry Jim but Starmer was elected by the party membership and is likely to be there until the next election at least. The only available options to accepting his leadership are walking away, splitting the party or moaning about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:41 AM

The has split the party that elected him and is likely to have driven away a lot of people who rejoined when Corbyn appeared
That's not "moaning" Dave, it's stating a fact
He is more likely to appease Johnson "for the good of the people" than he is to oppose him - that's a strong likelihood
My initial comments on Starmer were patronised (at best) rather than agreed with - he hasn't taken long to live up (down) to my expectations
The first thing, in my opinion, is to discuss (moan if you like) his potential as a leader - not to call for blind loyalty - that will change nothing
The coming period is likely to include a great deal of social unrest - there's been enough of that over the lock-down already - the next will be the job losses, the shortages and the profiteering on everything, from rents to food prices
There's a large backlog of medical treatments that haven't taken place, cancer being among them
The people are not going to be happy bunnies for the forseeable future and some of the more sinister fringe parties are going to be lining up offering their own alternative
The left needs to be there with song, clear and trustworthy leadership - Labour is the logical choice - but not under the present circumstances
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:52 AM

Forget the song - no time for that frippery - should have written "strong"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:53 AM

I agree that blind loyalty will not achieve anything. But neither will discussing or moaning. The only thing that will change the leadership is a leadership election and that is not likely to happen until after the next general election.

The other option I mentioned is literally splitting the party. You say it is already split. It isn't. Although there are factions it is still one Labour party. The only way to get a leftist leader before the next GE is to start a new party of the left. Which will result in a truly split Labour party and ensure the Tories tenure forever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:56 AM

starmer 'is likely to have driven away a lot of people who rejoined when corbyn appeared' sorry, Jim - 'is likely to' is not a fact, it's your opinion. i rejoined when corbyn appeared, i'm not leaving -and we don't know yet how many people will leave.

nor do we know how many people will support the party now that corbyn has gone. judging by the amount of people on doorsteps who said 'i would vote labour but not for corbyn' there should be a few.

corbyn was a bit slower to get rid of folk who were perceived to be anti-semitic - but he did dump people as well.

maybe starmer is more efficient and more politically astute. we lefties may be angry again - but we are always sulking about some perceived lack of socialist purity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

The number of party members under different leaders is completely irrelevant in terms of election success. What matters is the number of non-members who are persuaded to vote Labour In elections. The true measure of success of the party has nothing to do with the number of new members this or that leader attracts, and everything to do with how many MPs it gets elected at the GE. That is the golden number. Starmer knows this.

By drawing away the votes of former Labour voters - many, perhaps most, of them non-members - The Tory Propaganda Machine ensured victory at the last GE. In order to ensure that doesn’t happen again, Labour has to suppress and silence the TPM, and one of the best ways to do that is to act positively and swiftly to remove the things that the TPM could/would try to use against Labour in the lead up to an election. Starmer knows this.

Whether people like it or not, the ‘Anti-semitism’ trope was used very successfully by the Tories and their stooges in the Labour Party at the 2019 GE. They will use it again, given the slightest opportunity, at the next GE. The only way for the LP to combat and nullify that is by taking immediate, strong action whenever anyone does anything that the TPM could latch on to and use, rightly or wrongly, to persuade the electorate that ‘anti-semitism is alive and well in the Labour Party’. Starmer knows this.

No MP is bigger than the Party. As with a business, the Party’s management will have set rules regarding MPs’ behaviour, and it’s incumbent on MPs to stick to the rules, otherwise their worth to the party in achieving its top priority - election to government - is reduced. It’s called discipline. Starmer knows this.

Starmer knows these things. I’m surprised that others don’t.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:00 AM

'is likely to' is not a fact, it's your opinion.
I d=sid he was likely to - which is a fact - I didn't say he would
If the caninet is at each others throats
Unless you examined constituency figures, your doorstep comments came from the ant-Corbyn media - the one who launched an anti-Corbyn hate campaign from the minute he put in an appearance - many non active voters are bound to have ben influenced by that
Corbyn immediately launched an enquiry into anti-semitism accusations and published the results
If you believe there to be a serious problem - what is it ?
Ii is now as impossible to distinguish antisemitism from criticism of Israel as it is to criticise that terrororist state without being called "anti-Semitic"
Perceiving someone to be something is a million miles from proving they were
Some of the clearest statements on Labour antisemitism have come from Jewish People in the labour party who claim that it has been trumped up by supporters of Israel and right wingers wishing to get rid of Corbyn
Articles like the one reproduced below were once easy to find on the web - now they have all but disappeared
The Jewish voices in support of Corbyn have been censored almost out of existence   
Wonder if anybody has a comment on it here or are they all to eager to back this right-wing thug
Jim

As a Jewish Labour member, I'm sick of anti-Semitism being used as a political weapon against Jeremy Corbyn
Miccael Segalov IThe Indeendant, 26 September 2016

For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who wear swastikas as badges of honour. Where was your concern for my community then?
It’s become an all too regular occurrence, waking up to headlines reporting that anti-Semitism in the Labour party is now an endemic problem, and that bad feeling against Jewish people in the party is on an upward trajectory.
As a Jewish Labour Party member, they are stories that should have me alarmed. I know from experience just how dangerous anti-Semitism can really be: vast swathes of my ancestors were lost to the murderous hands of the Nazis, and observant Jewish friends of mine have been harassed and attacked on British streets. I’ve read the slurs, faced the trolls, had neo-Nazis shout abuse in my face.
And yet it’s not just anger against bigots that hits as I scan story after story, but frustration towards those trying to use an all too real threat facing my community for their own political gain. Since Corbyn’s election as Labour leader, unsupportive MPs, campaigning groups and journalists have been desperate to paint him and the movement who support him as anti-Semitic fanatics, despite knowing it’s really not the case.
I could tell you about my own experiences, how I’ve never experienced or witnessed anti-Semitism inside the party – but that’s just what I’ve seen, non-Jewish defenders of my religion will claim. My experiences, and those of countless other Corbyn-supporting Jewish members who I’ve spoken to, aren’t reflective of what’s really going on, apparently.
Just a few months ago, I found myself sat in the Channel 4 News studio, tasked with discussing anti-Semitism under Corbyn. Sat opposite me was John Woodcock MP, desperate to tell me it’s the “hard-left” who are “associated [with] Soviet Russia” with anti-Semitic views infiltrating the party who were responsible for stirring up hatred.
Now, we only need look at the most high-profile of cases to see that anti-Semitism is by no means a product of Corbyn’s supporters. Naz Shah, MP for Bradford West, was rightly suspended for sharing anti-Semitic posts on Facebook, not a Corbynite but a backer of Yvette Cooper in the last leadership election. Ken Livingstone, similarly sanctioned for his remarks about Hitler, has been a party grandee for decades. An insurgent? I think not.
Woodcock pointed me towards “a rise in anti-Semitic incidents” within the party, without having a single statistic or figure to back it up. It’s an answer I hear time and time again, and for those of us – Jewish or otherwise – committed to fighting anti-Semitism, enough is enough.
It’s tiring and it’s frustrating, but moreover it’s frankly dangerous.
For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies, and the counter-demonstrations that take place alongside. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who profess hatred for Jews and our religion, who wear swastikas as badges of honour, who’ll salute like a Nazi in front of your face. Where was your concern for my community then?
It’s not just the distinct absence of those MPs in Labour who now claim to be at the forefront of the fight against anti-Jewish prejudice that’s striking, but the presence of those they now claim to be British Jewry’s biggest threat.
It’s the left, and Corbyn’s supporters, who’ve put their bodies on the line time and time again to protect us from these racist organisations.
Top ArticlesThe time has come todecolonise botanicalgardens like Kew
That’s why these cries of anti-Semitism make a mockery of a real and present danger. Corbyn’s commitment to fighting discrimination and prejudice has een well documented for decades. His supporters are those who’ve stood alongside him. Accusing these people now of peddling prejudice is nothing but political point-scoring at its worst. It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head.
I’m not saying Labour members haven’t experienced anti-Semitism inside the Labour Party, and of course, a progressive movement like Labour should hold itself to higher standards than other organisations. Those few who blindly label all incidents of anti-Semitism as anti-Corbyn slander and restrictions on critiquing Israel need to listen to the voices of victims and let conversations about Judaism and Israel be led by Jewish members: we are here and we know how to speak.
This isn’t to say I don’t value the concern, but I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Anti-Semitism is not a problem particular to Labour; using the words “Judaism” and “Israel” interchangeably is just as (if not more) common on the right as on the left.
Oppression, discrimination and Jewish identity are complex; the relationship between our religion and the state of Israel is constantly debated; disagreements will happen inside our community. Let us lead these discussions. Don’t quickly take sides simply to advance your faction, angle or personal interests.
And if you’re truly concerned about fighting racism and anti-Semitism, I look forward to seeing you stand alongside us in meetings and on the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:03 AM

We sould be voting for policies Baccie - not for "my paryy right ot wrong"
No - democracy says the party members should shouid the policies - what you are describing is Populism - winning votes using every trick in the book - like wot gave us Brexit
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:30 AM

The antisemitism slur was perpetuated largely by people within the Labour Party. The pro-Israel lobby had their stooges in the party, and the Tories only had to provide the occasional nudge to keep the smears in the spotlight. I could name Ruth Smeeth and John Mann, who both deliberately orchestrated very public incidents, and the likes of Margaret Hodge, Louise Ellman and the long-term idiot Frank Field. These and others never missed an opportunity to loudly and publicly criticise Corbyn's approach to the supposed problem. They were like a walking Labour suicide note, but they didn't care: getting smashed by the Tories in an election was, to them, a small price to pay for evicting Corbynism from the party. All these people were on the right of the party. I'm sick of the blame for splits being put on the left. Left-wingers in the party are far more likely to be campaigners against racism and for equality. Ken Livingstone, for example, about as un-antisemitic as can be, hounded out by the likes of the above. The lefties in Labour don't cause splits. Splits are caused by the right trying to shame the left into silence. "We'll never be electable with you around, and we're going to keep shouting that from the rooftops..." . As I said, the left has always been a part of Labour and always will be. It's those on the right, such as the above and the Blairs and the Kinnocks of this world, who can't stomach that and who constantly try to mould the party in their own right-wing image. We've just seen Starmer perpetuating that tradition. If he thinks that it'll win him elections, he's deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:31 AM

Labour had plenty of ‘policies’ at the last election - in fact they had too many - but they lost by the biggest landslide in living memory, defeated by ‘Populism’, a cartoon-character Tory leader, a couple of three-word slogans, and a Propaganda assault,

A significant number of voters aren’t interested in reading and comparing manifestos, they fall for the cartoon-character, the slogans, and the propaganda - the 2019 is unarguable evidence of this fact.

A party can’t effect its policies unless it wins the GE.

To win the GE next time, the Populism of the Tories needs to be nullified.

Starmer knows this. You clearly don’t.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:41 AM

"To win the GE next time, the Populism of the Tories needs to be nullified."

What, by shutting up the lefties and leaving the Tory-lite establishment right of the party to it? I keep trying to tell you: it won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:52 AM

Baccie
Can you answer a simple question - you have refused to answer all the others
You are demanding loyalty for the Labour party

How loyal to it is to that party to allow its leader to smear the proud history of fighting antisemitism ?
Starmer has gone so far as to split the party, to appease all those 'Friends of Israel' and the right wing Blairites in order to gain poitical power
As far as I am concerned, it is par for the course that careere politicians lie Starmer sell pot party and fellow party members to climb the greasy pole
What upsets me most is the decent, intelligent people who claim to be 'progressives' and fair mined, who break their necks to get in line behind such behaviour

I ask again - what evidence is there that this woman is antisemitic, as Starmer claimed she was ?
Does anybody believe she was wrong when she supported Peake's statement ?
If the answer to either of these is negative, why is anybody backing such a leader - is that the behaviour you want presented as typical of your party ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

In my view Baccy is right. I see no point arguing with you, Jim and Steve, because we all know each other's positions and nothing feeds the Tory Propaganda Machine more effectively than arguing amongst ourselves, thereby ignoring Robert Jenrick's shady dealing and the rest.

Do we really want to copy the Life of Brian?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 07:25 AM

I repeat my earlier post, which Jim ignores because he wants to have a row with anybody who will take his bait - even a friend who has defended him many times over the years, and which Steve ignores because of his, admittedly admirable, loyalty to his pin-up girl...

“Unless the membership start to show some unity and loyalty to the leader, get over their factionism and divisions, and at least try to look like a party that knows where it’s going and how to get there, it wont make a scrap of difference who that leader is, there will still be a Tory government after the next election and into the foreseeable future after that. The LP will have thrown itself under the Tory Propaganda bus, and the members will have nobody to blame but themselves.“

And that, as they say, is it. Fall out amongst yourselves, I’m not biting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

So you want the right just to repeat your matra without responding to the attacks this man has made on Party members and the reputation of the Labour party ?
This man is a right wing appeaser - there is no reason why he wont continue to sell his pary out to stay the king of tha castle
You appear to care less for the Labour Party than he does

You seem that the opinion of the Tory Party is worth more than that of the members
Please answer one single question
Does Labour have a serious problem with antisemitsm ?
Then at least we'll know where we stand on that one
As far as I'm concerned, if it does it has no right to clain to be what it does and not worth supporting as a party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

chris williamson and clive lewis were sacked by corbyn while our rightish mp was serving in the shadow cabinet.   it is always a tricky road between ignoring and responding to the relentless media attacks. maybe starmer will manage that better than corbyn but it's still going to happen. probably because the media will more easily tolerate a more centrist figure - mind you, there is his donkey sanctuary shame. eric heffer said years ago in the benn/kinnock battles that any bird needs 2 wings to fly....we need to be appreciate the JPF/PFJ more. in workington when we had the latest meeting to nominate the next leader/depute someone said that 'of course, in scotland the enemy is the SNP'

no - the enemy is the same as ever. we have to keep focussed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:58 AM

"...and which Steve ignores because of his, admittedly admirable, loyalty to his pin-up girl..."

So you back out of discussion with a final Johnsonite sexist barb. Nice! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM

Too many maybes there WM - Labour has had too many "maybe he'll be ok when he's on office's and not one of them have come up to the mark
There has never been a better time to offer an alternative to what has happened in the past - even without the present crisis, people seem to have had just about enough
The increasing cynical mistrust of politicians is not something that Labour can afford to be part of any more if it is to survive
It would be good if you answered my question WM
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 10:06 AM

"Robert Jenrick"
Sorry - I don't see the point in that reference at all
Jendrick it a 'Friend o Israel' with all that implies and is a rabid Tory
What on earth has that got to do with the Labour Party Leadership
We do know that the Tory Part has a far more serious Antisemitism problem than any other part - real antisemitism - we also know that on two occasions leading Muslim figures have accused the Conservatives of having a serious Islamophobic problem, yet our "hard Labour leader joins in the right wing chorus of Labour being antisemitic
What exactly are you saying?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

Jendrick it a 'Friend o Israel' with all that implies and is a rabid Tory
What on earth has that got to do with the Labour Party Leadership?

Nothing, which is precisely the point. While we argue about leadership, we ignore things that the Tories are up to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 01:22 PM

Sunday tea time reality check,

Life tends to be unfair, and will get increasingly unfairer the longer the tories stay in in power..

Politics is a dirty business, and Starmer may be a bit c@ntish,
but he's not a completely evil c@nt like politicians further right than he is...

The lesser of two evils will have to do until perfect utopia gets granted building permission..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 02:29 PM

i've never thought that labour has a problem with anti-semitism. i've never encountered it in the party or at any union meeting i've been at. i'm confident that if anyone had come out with that shit they would have been called out and disciplined. i'm also sure that it is a confected argument that was prosecuted by tory jewish organisations and their duplicitous stooges in the labour party - i'm angry that corbyn never had the balls to sack the likes of john mann and margaret hodge but did sack livingstone, williamson and lewis.

the most recent thing about rebcca l-b i feel was unnecessary, badly handled and just wrong. i like her and feel she represents a vital part of our party and what's more, is clearly a good person.

[t's wrong what keir starmer did but i can understand the politics. if you look at the many crimes of the tory party - the most obvious and relevant being windrush - it's appalling that they are where they are. they could kill all the grannies, impoverish all our young people and arse-lick trump to charleston and back and at least a third of the forelock-tugging english voters are going to support them.

i have never been a lover of the labour party or its broad church. i have supported and been a member of other parties before. but a constant has been that i hate the tories and all the greed, stupidity and bigotry that they represent.

so this is where we are - in the shite. sadly, progressive people have to play their horrible game or we risk leaving our country to economic and cultural disaster. the best we can hope for at the moment is a decent government with general liberal and competent principles. we ain't going to get the last chance for a socialist government in my lifetime that i hoped for as i supported jeremy corbyn in recent years.

i'll support the labour party for now despite reservations- i'm done with stomping off in principled huffs - times are desperate, we have to be in power.

(by the way, jim, i hope that was the question you wanted me to answer! good luck, pete)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 02:51 PM

”...times are desperate, we have to be in power.”

Exactly what I’ve been saying. Sadly **some** people have been too busy twisting my words and trying to set traps for me to even listen. Fuck ‘em.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

BMW - I predicted banning right wing antagonists from BS
would most likely lead to increased petty infighting between us mudcat lefty/liberal mates...

[pfr - trying hard not to be a smug "I told you so" pillock...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:37 PM

"(by the way, jim, i hope that was the question you wanted me to answer! good luck, pete"
It was - thanks - I don't think there' a chsm between us

"people have been too busy twisting my words"
Pretty dificult when you reply to nothing

"While we argue about leadership,"
I don't think anybody does that - most of this is about how to get a leader who will do something about it
Israel has been part of British politics at least since they set out to scupper a Labour leader who stood firm on their behaviour by smearing him and his Party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM

"Israel has been part of British politics at least since they set out to scupper a Labour leader
who stood firm on their behaviour by smearing him and his Party"

Jim - Israel, trump's Americans, and whichever other misc Nations and billionaires
fearing Britain gaining a Labour Govt,
will forever continue doing that in increasingly corrupt and nastier ways...

We've got to wise up and swallow the taste of being realist pragmatists in this perpetual fight these evil opponents..

Remeber - the simple objective..

Get tories out, keep 'em out, and avoid stupid divisive infighting
allowing the far right to win Govt instead of us...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM

”BMW - I predicted banning right wing antagonists from BS
would most likely lead to increased petty infighting between us mudcat lefty/liberal mates...

[pfr - trying hard not to be a smug "I told you so" pillock...]”

I’m not fighting with anyone, pfr. I’ve made my point several times, I’ve carefully avoided others’ word-twisting, baiting, and traps - now that’s me done. You know my motto - I’ve repeated it often enough...

BTW - I’m BackWoodsMan, not a German car! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:42 PM

WMB - bollocks.. and i always try to check to make sure I don't get your initials in the wrong order...

..my only excuse is I was distracted by dancing along to Cliff singing "Dynamite"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM

MWB - btw.. I know your're not one of the mudcatters fighting for the sake of it..

wanna make something of it.. outside now.. errmm.. can someone hold my spectacles.. and my pint.. and pork scratchings...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

Nah mate, I gave over smacking blokes up when I reached 60... :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:58 PM

Nobody's trying to twist your words, John. Your words do suggest that principle should be ditched and that "electability" should trump everything else. Well I think that four more years is going to be a very long time in politics, and that in the meantime we have to stick to our principles. One of those principles is that we don't accept for a single second false accusations of antisemitism against good-hearted, proper, principled socialists. Any socialists, not just my pin-up girl. Christ on a bloody bike, John, for saying that. Starmer has just ditched that. It won't work, the right-wing vultures in Labour and the Board Of Deputies will continue to circle and we will never hear an end to this until they have made Keir their puppet. He's no Blair, he's no Attlee and he isn't even a Wilson. He's a bloody lightweight and you know it. He must spend half of his days picking splinters out of his buttocks with tweezers after all that pusillanimous fence-sitting. We are truly in trouble, and Sir K has just played into the hands of the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM

Is there not a single leftist Jewish Labour MP,
tough enough to fight back hard against the false accusations of right wing Jewish groups,
who could have stood as a candidate for leader, or deputy...???

Now if I was playing "Fantasy Political Party Leaders"..

That's who I'd play the game with...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM

The tragedy is, pfr, that we have to look for a Jewish MP to do it. We shouldn't need that. We should need honest, straightforward, principled and clear-sighted people of any persuasion/religion/ethnicity/whatever to speak up honestly, clearly and fearlessly, and to show the hypocrites that we know what they're up to and that we're not wearing it. Now a party that espoused that is a party I could cheerfully vote for, instead of constantly having to decide who's the best of a bad lot...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM

Pragmatism is the last thing The Labour Party wants now - any gains Labour has ever made have been by standing firm on policies and principle - from 1949 to Corbyn coming in with proposals of a return to principle
The media and establishment have always known this - just look who and what they picked out for their special treatment - the things and paeople who might actually change things for the better - nationalisation, social housing, the N.H.S., effectinve industial action like the Miners, steelwrkers and dustmans' strikes
It was the thinkers and principled dreamers in the Labour Party who were given special treatment - a (sort of) Socialist Government after the War, Foot, Benn - and most recently Corbyn - all stepped out of the Parliamentary greenhouse articulately argued to change things Corbyn was inexperienced and finding his feet, but the other tw were brilliant and inspirational public speakers - I heard Foot and Benn speak several times
I shared a platform with a feller named Fenner Brockway once - I din't agree with everything he stood for but Jesus - what a speaker

Parliament has become a meaningless farce - has anybody watched it ?
A tiny percentage of elected representatives shouting abuse at each other and voting for what they intended to in the first place
There are so few of them bothering to turn up that, since being televised, they have to 'doughnut' to make them look more than there are
How much longer are people going to put up with that ?

The only people worth voting for are those who are going to say something principled and worthwhile, and act on it
Is someone who goes with the media flow, sacks ministers who gets in his way by telling the truth and is prepared to split his pary and degrade everything it was created for the leader to do that ?
You decide - I have
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 03:47 AM

The Labour party has no more problem with antisemitism than the rest of the country. As the UK in general has a number of people who are antisemitic, racist, sexist etc. then a number of those must also support Labour and even be members of the Labour party. It is to be hoped that party members are, in general, less likely to be 'ist' than some others but saying that there is no antisemitism at all in the Labour party would be silly. The leadership, both Starmer and Corbyn, has failed to address any real antisemitism and danced to the tune of populist propaganda. I am very disappointed and disillusioned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 04:45 AM

Corbyn ordered an enquiry at the behest of Jewish members of the party, which was the only thing he could have done - that enquiry found no serious problem
To have ignored demands for an enquiry would have played into the hands of the media and the right wing of the Party
Starmer carried out no enquiry, but has sacked a minister for criticising Israel - that is not only divisive, as has been shown, but it is tantamount to agreeing that criticising Israel is antisemitic - which is, by definition, antisemitic

Tenth and final clause from The Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
If it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, it follows that claiming criticising Israel is antisemitic implies that The Jewish People are responsible for Israel's actions - simples

Starmer's action is antisemitic
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 10:34 AM

Meanwhile ...

At the lunchtime press conference today there were signs that the Brexit talk deadline is now the end of September. This sounds likely to me: the EU was saying any deal needed to be agreed in principle by October, to give enough time for the countries and EU Parliament to sign it off - and we have of course had threats not to do so if the individual countries did not agree. We have also been told the Brexit negotiator David Frost will move from that role to national security adviser when Mark Sedwill departs in September.

Of course, that only gives three months to get all the deal/no-deal preparation in place, for government and business, but that would be typical of the level of preparation we expect from this government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 11:14 AM

Has boris used the classic "Sorry,my dog ate my homework" excuse yet,
for missing brexit dreadlines*...


[*Dreadline:

Demands a finishing date (that might be arbitrary)
Puts too much pressure in a timeline that’s too small
No one’s on the same page thanks to weird scheduling changes and goalpost shifting
Creates an environment of panic and breaks down communication...

(quote nicked off the internet, but forgot where from)]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Well, there have been claims about not receiving, or overlooking, some E-Mail or other, but perhaps by now they've all been testing their eyesight in the approved manner.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

I absolutely don't do conspiracy theory...but this Leicester malarkey...we've all let our hair down a bit too much...crowded Bournemouth beaches full of turds...social distancing gone to the wall...so let's put the shits up us all using Leicester as an example...

(No, Stephen. It can't be right so stop that NOW...)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 01:37 AM

I got Leicester's treatment completely wrong: I said in a few places I did not think they would lock down Leicester because it makes the upcoming 'New Deal' speech more difficult.

I waited until Hansard was out, because I wanted to get this part of Hancock's speech precisely correct. Here's what he said, with my highlighting:

We have decided that from tomorrow non-essential retail will have to close and, as children have been particularly impacted by this outbreak, schools will also need to close from Thursday

Children particularly affected by this outbreak? If the press pick up on that I can see more problems with reopening schools ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Hancock was on the Today show on BBC Radio 4 this morning and

"He said: "We've sent a lot of extra testing into Leicester over the last 10 days or so and one of the things we've found is that there are under 18s who have tested positive.

"Therefore, because children can transmit the disease, even though they are highly unlikely to get ill from the disease, we think the safest thing to do is to close the schools."

One thing we can all agree on is that the handling of the public relations or getting the news out about this virus, has been very bad. Whoever is responsible for that job is not doing it very well.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 09:44 AM

I see that the Beeb is reporting that the overall death rate has gone even a bit below the expected level for the time of year. I wonder whether that's because a lot of people who should have died last week are already dead...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 10:58 AM

innit like boris's beach swarming dickheads
aren't expected to start dropping like flies until something like 7 to 10 days later...???

[.. and btw, where's Leicester's nearest seaside or lake resorts...???]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

cumming's initial devious [..cough.. alleged..] plan was to exploit pandemic to cull costly non productive old and weak..

His new follow up scheme seems to be to loosen lockdown restrictions in order to thin out expensive sunbathing furloughed workers
and their dependent family members...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

”[.. and btw, where's Leicester's nearest seaside or lake resorts...???]“

Lake - Rutland Water?

Seaside - Skeggy is traditionally Leicester’s go-to resort. They even used to have a Leicester Boys’ Home there, closed now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

Several runners have been withdrawn by trainers from racing at Leicester after Tuesday's meeting was cleared to go ahead despite new city lockdown rules.

The nine-race evening fixture is taking place after consultation between local health authorities and the British Horseracing Authority (BHA).

I imagine the race track is actually some distance outside of Leicester, but when it comes to sending mixed messages, we have a "world-beating" government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM

I suppose an old etonian boy would be overly fond of the word "beating"..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:46 PM

from the Beeb

Nia Griffith was shadow defence secretary under Jeremy Corbyn, with Keir Starmer appointing her shadow Welsh secretary when he took over the leadership.
Ms Griffith said anyone who cannot accept Sir Keir's zero-tolerance approach should leave the party.
"He (Sir Keir Starmer) said he would deal with anti-Semitism in the party," Ms Griffith said.
"And we really needed decisive action to do that so when, unfortunately, Rebecca Long-Bailey did what she did on Thursday, and did not respond to the opportunity to apologise, it was absolutely essential.
"And he's had real support throughout the party on that."
Mrs Long-Bailey retweeted the article, which was an interview with actor and Labour supporter Maxine Peake, but later the former shadow education secretary said she had not meant to endorse all aspects of it.
When pressed on whether members who have sent messages of support from the left for Mrs Long-Bailey were guilty of anti-Semitism, Ms Griffith said: "Well I think they are and I think they're also in danger of going backwards and going back over old arguments and old mistakes because what we need now is clear, decisive action to make sure that we root out anti-Semitism in the party.
"And so, it's absolutely vital that we do that, not just talk about it.
"So action is really important and they must learn to accept that and I'm sure the majority of them will."
The Welsh Labour Grassroots group put out a statement following Thursday's events, which said criticism of the Israeli Government was not tantamount to anti-Semitism.
Ms Griffith said that was "disappointing and worrying", and that "when people start making blanket assumptions or blanket criticisms that is very often the basis of anti-Semitism or racism".
She added: "That's completely different from making a specific comment about a specific policy about a specific government."
On the question of what should happen to members who agreed with Mrs Long-Bailey, Ms Griffith said: "Well it is going to be a long process and I think starting off by making it absolutely clear we have zero tolerance of anti-Semitism in the party is step one, but quite clearly there is work to be done."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:54 PM

"When pressed on whether members who have sent messages of support from the left for Mrs Long-Bailey
were guilty of anti-Semitism, Ms Griffith said: "Well I think they are"...


Easy enough to dismiss her own "blanket assumption or blanket criticism"...!!!

..Toadying claptrap...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:46 PM

It's late, pfr, so I hope it's ok if I just say "yep"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:52 AM

The comment from Ms. Peake was the kind of offhand association of ideas with no solid foundation as is used to spread nasty ideas about parties and just infiltrate the blogosphere. This tactic did not start with the internet or twitter but has certainly been magnified by it. It does nothing but spread a false association as if it is founded in actual research, which it isn't. The retweet on the part of Long-Bailey just makes it more indirect and harder to call out. It's the kind of incessant negative nattering that is at the heart of casting unfounded aspersions and builds an "attitude without evidence" and indeed got Corbyn called up multiple times.

Sir Keir called the situation correctly, as Griffith stated above. And the fact that so many people think that that kind of below-the-breath allegation is a correct way to behave shows how deep it's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:14 AM

Ok, Robomatic. Maxine Peake may well have made an unfounded comment. The American police may not have learned the tactic from the Israeli secret service. But while whether they did or didn't is a conspiracy theory, how is it antisemitic? In fact, by saying it is antisemitic, you are tarring all Jews with the same brush as the nastier elements of the Israeli regime. There are millions of decent Jews around the world who are as appalled by some of the tactics of the Israeli government as you and I are. Are you really saying that by criticising the more extreme elements of that regime, she was criticising the Jewish people in general?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM

Posted here without comment. The Economist, 12/10/19....

Drawing the line between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:12 AM

It is an established fact that the Isralis have been training American police forces for several years now, one of those being the Minneapolis police force
It is also true that the tactic of 'kneeling on the neck' is a regular one used against Palestinian protesters and has been reported widely - Makine Peake got her information from a newspaper article published in 2012
It would have been logical to assume that the Minneapolis police were trained in this riot control tactic - their trainers would have been remiss had they not taught it in the circumstances
However, Peake didn't have to assume anything - it was reported in the 2012 article - it was not an assumption, it was a report she was well within her rights to make
In sacking Long-Bailey and the massive damage it has done to the Party Starmer has attempted to stifle criticism of Israel and has verified the smears against The Labour Party.
There is no evidence whatever to show the Pary has ever had a probem wit The Jewish People - not a shred - sure, a tiny handful o members have made critiscism o Israeli crimes 'Jewish' but so has Israel - by claiming it is 'antisemitic' to criticise Israli policy, is too claim that policy to be "Jewish"

Israel is a State which has been committing crimes against humanity on a large scale under the guise of "defending itself", with the active protection of the U.S. and the silence of the est of the world - one of the greatest massacres of unarmed civilians i peace time took place in 1982 when the Israeli Army facilitated the mass-murder of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees, turned back those trying to escape and, after three days, helped hide the evidence by supplying machinery to bury the bodies
There has never been such a single massacre since W.W.2. - the man found responsible (even by the Israeli enquiry), Areil Sharon, became Israeli Prime minister 19 years later
The mane eye witness to the massacre, American Jewish nurse, Ellen Seigal, has dedicated her life to bringing Israel to justice   

THere are no '"nastier elements@ of the Israeli regime - it is an extremist, right wing regime run by a criminal and in the process of ethnically cleansing the Arabs about of their rightful territory - full stop - it is estimated that their policies have added 7.2 millioan refugees to the present world total

In defending this regime, Starmer has now placed the Labour Party among those 'silent appeasers' defending this criminal behavour - which is why he is not fit to be leader
If that is the Labour Party Britain now has, it should not be supported
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 05:30 AM

Johnson must dread PMQs now that Labour has a leader who can show him for the clueless Twunt he is. Something Corbyn never managed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:10 AM

"Something Corbyn never managed to do."
Cobyn is a relatively inexperienced politician who has never held major office and was finding his feet - Starmer is a senior QC whose prefession is based on the use of words and argument
An apples and grapefruit comparison
One is a committed socialist with principles, the other is an opportunist careerist prepared to sell out his colleagues and the reputation of his Party when it becomes convenient to do so - apples and grapefruit again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:00 AM

One led the party to its worst-in-living-memory defeat in the 2019 GE - an absolutely disastrous arse-kicking, delivered by a Tory party unfit to govern with a leader unfit to lead.

Just remind me, who that one was...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM

I don't like the fact that my country sells planes to the Saudis which they use to bomb Yemeni civilians, and I frequently say so. That is a criticism of government policy, not of the character or predilections of the British people. I don't like the fact that the Israeli secret service is involved in training foreign police forces in violent methods of restraint, and I frequently say so. That is a criticism of Israeli government policy, not of the character or predilections of the Jewish people (as Israel characterises itself as a Jewish state, I regard it as appropriate to put it that way). If I were to say that the Israeli government behaviour that I don't like is typical of Jews, that would be antisemitic. If I single out the behaviour of Israel in a discussion about foreign or domestic policy, I don't have to mention everybody else's bad behaviour in order to avoid being called antisemitic, though you'd rightfully think that I was being obsessive, and suspect my motives, if I NEVER mentioned anyone else. We single out the behaviour of different nations' governments all the time, whether it's us selling jets to the Saudis or American foreign policy or the outrages of the Chinese regime, and we don't feel obliged to demonstrate every time that everyone else is just as bad. I'm not going to feel that I can't mention Israel without walking on eggshells when I don't do that for every other country's regime. Unfortunately, that's the mindset we are expected to adopt by pro-Israel hawks (can I say that?) And that ain't right.

If the Jewish people in Israel and beyond are anything like us Brits, large numbers won't know or give a damn what their secret services, etc., get up to. That's why I'm careful to criticise the Israeli regime, not "the Jews" or the "Israelis" or even "Israel." We don't need to walk on eggshells, but words are important.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:12 AM

Well, John, Jeremy Corbyn was up against a hubris-ridden, devious, newly-elected populist full of braggadocio. Starmer is up against a very different man with a whole bunch of problems that he couldn't have predicted, including a near-death experience and an incredibly shabby track record of proven incompetence, and Starmer is still enjoying his charmed-life honeymoon. Something to contemplate before we make pat comparisons between him and Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:17 AM

Y’know Steve, it’s almost as though you and Jim don’t want a Labour government. It’s like you’d prefer the Johnson Gang to stay in power, butt-fucking the most vulnerable. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:25 AM

"One led the party to its worst-in-living-memory defeat in the 2019"
Brexit Fatigue won the 2019 election - nothing else
Corbyn came in and began to turn the Labour Party from a second rate 'son of the Tory Party' back into one with an alternative policy
Now we seem to have Starmer supporters lining up with the bum-wipe press to give him a kicking for trying to reintroduce Labour to why it was et up in the first place - strange bedfellows - or are they ?
This becomes as devisive as sacking ministers for telling the truth
Sorry - can't see a future for the party I was once proud to vote for if this is what has happened to it

I have been fascinated to to what hass happened to parts of the concious population over the last few months
First a major moe towerd ending the inherent racism that has been re-awakened by Brexit and Populism - this has spread to a re-extermination of Britain's colonial past and the inequality of many of the cultural minorities - Travellers included
Thanks to a young girl, the kids have approached the perilous situation of Climate Change, big-time - I was listening to David Attenborough addressing conference delegates, this morning - Thunberg's activities have played a major part in his thinking
Looking outside Parliament, the politicians are going to have to run very fast to keep up with what's happening on the streets

The pathetic numbers that attend parliamentary sessions have always been irrelevancies - the Labour Party needs to decide whose side they are on and they need a leader with principles to do that
This feller fell at the first fence
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM

Plenty of Labour supporters have severe reservations about Starmer. Before the election he was the fence-sitter par excellence. He's currently giving the illusion that he's doing well, but it's only because he's up against an incompetent man whose firing pin has been removed. He wants us to think the his unprincipled sacking Of RLB was him showing us that he can be "decisive," in stark contrast to his previous self. Well I'll make two predictions: that he'll make a lot more mistakes in the next four years for the media hawks to feed on, and that she'll be back on the front bench before the next election. As LBJ said about J. Edgar Hoover, better to have her inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in...The left are never going away. It's our bloody party...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM

No party can change anything if they’re not in government. To be in government, they have to be elected. To be elected they have to present themselves in a way that persuades not only party-members and non-members who habitually vote for the party but, more importantly, voters with no political allegiance, to vote for them.

Corbyn, for whatever reasons, failed dismally. As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. There has to be a change of direction. The voting public rejected the (far too many announced at one time) policies of Corbyn’s Labour. To insist on a move further to the left, or even simply a continuation of ‘Corbynism’ is to fulfil that definition of insanity.

Funny how some people find that so difficult to understand. I want a Labour government, clearly some people want the present bunch to stay in power indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:52 AM

And, Steve, I hope RL-B does return to the Shadow Cabinet, sooner rather than later. I believe she’s a good brain who made a silly mistake. Hopefully she’s learned that it’s sometimes better to keep ones mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

"No party can change anything if they’re not in government."
Unless the Labour Party provides an alternative to what has gone before it doesn't matter if they hold power - it would have been better for Britain if Blair's Party had not been elected - they left us a legacy of OIL WARS

"It's our bloody party..."
Yes it is, or it would be if it hadn't been hi-jacked by wannabe Tories
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:03 AM

There has always been a prominent left-wing element in the Labour Party. Many of the Good Things that Labour has ever done have been left-wing Good Things. The left will always be there in the party and it's no good for the right-wingers in the party to persist in letting that stick in their craw. That is what's happening now. But we are not going away. Unless you're a rabid revolutionary, which I'm not, your natural political home as a leftie should be the Labour Party. The right wing of the party can't hold us to ransom by saying that unless we keep our heads down we are causing splits. They are the ones causing the split by being unLabour, not us. What RLB did was trivial compared to things like Johnson's racist comments or the stealing of taxpayers' money by dishonestly inflating expenses claims or by sexually harassing female MPs or other parliamentary staff. And not one of her critics has managed to demonstrate that she holds antisemitic views. Sir Keir should have a motto on his office wall, "I'll put my foot down, right or wrong." Starmer is running scared of the pro-Israel lobby both in the party and in the country. The confected antisemitism row was perpetuated by the likes of John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Ruth Smeeth and John Woodcock, all from the right of the party and, well, I won't mention deviousness and dishonesty...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

DTG:Ok, Robomatic. Maxine Peake may well have made an unfounded comment. The American police may not have learned the tactic from the Israeli secret service. But while whether they did or didn't is a conspiracy theory, how is it antisemitic? In fact, by saying it is antisemitic, you are tarring all Jews with the same brush as the nastier elements of the Israeli regime. There are millions of decent Jews around the world who are as appalled by some of the tactics of the Israeli government as you and I are. Are you really saying that by criticising the more extreme elements of that regime, she was criticising the Jewish people in general?

DTG: That was a well worded post. Thank you. What I'm saying is not that the words of Ms. Peake expressed as a valid opinion and point of departure for investigative journalism were antisemitic. They are not. They are not even antiZionist. But couched in the form of an 'aside' that is assumed to be true and then gets 'read into the record' in a politically relevant tweet (or retweet) develops its own context, particularly in the light of existing criticisms of Labour. (And I'm going to add personally that I've run into that kind of tactic in the work environment. It carries a weight out of proportion with its apparent innocuousness. The only effective way I've found to deal with it is to call it out). What I saw in the remark was an opportunity to link Israelis as allies of the worst of American policing efforts in the persecution of American black folk. When there is no evidence that any Israeli ever suggested kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes or invented this technique at all? This was where Ms. Griffith's point was best taken:"That's completely different from making a specific comment about a specific policy about a specific government." Ms. Long-Bailey was, I understand, given leave to recall her tweet before she was demoted (if that is the right word). This doesn't sound like a career ender, but a 'frank exchange of views'. At this point my feeble understanding of your politics rapidly loses grip. My understanding is that someone tried to murmur something underhanded under their breath, got called out for it, and a backbench scuffle ensued, and has gone underground again for the time being. (Same as happens here).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

Do you want a Labour government Steve? Or are you happy to condemn this country, especially its most vulnerable citizens, to being indefinitely abused by the greedy, rapacious Tories?

If it’s the former, you need to look up a word in the dictionary - ‘compromise’. If it’s the latter, carry on, you and Jim are doing a fine job. And shame on you both.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:10 AM

Good post, Robo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

THis gets ridiculous
- you can go on forever repeating the same old mantra - utterly meaningless
Labour has far too many examples of leaders who have taken office and then changed their tune - this feller at last pressed th early warning buzzer at an early stage
Does Labour really need another Tony Blair ?
W"no evidence that any Israeli ever suggested kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes"
Who put a time on it- nobody here ?
Peake did not give her opinion - she quoted a newspaper report which appears to be accurate on all accounts
That they back-tracked 'for the good of the party' maybe reprehensible, but it's no more than what is being suggested here

You have yet to qualify your "antisemitism" accusation Robo
Jim

UP CLOSE AND UGLY

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:46 AM

I’ll keep saying it until people like you realise that **your version** of the Labour Party is unelectable, Jim, and if it can’t get elected, it can’t even begin to deal with the damage caused by ten years of Tory mis-rule.

It’s so childishly simple, I’m astonished you don’t ‘get it’...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:51 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:03 AM

There has always been a prominent left-wing element in the Labour Party. Many of the Good Things that Labour has ever done have been left-wing Good Things. The left will always be there in the party and it's no good for the right-wingers in the party to persist in letting that stick in their craw. That is what's happening now. But we are not going away. Unless you're a rabid revolutionary, which I'm not, your natural political home as a leftie should be the Labour Party. The right wing of the party can't hold us to ransom by saying that unless we keep our heads down we are causing splits. They are the ones causing the split by being unLabour, not us.

But without those of the Labour Party who are "right wing" (for Labour Party purposes) the Labour Party would have garnered even less votes, and consequently less representation, at the last election. Unless, of course, you believe that stripping the Labour Party of its "right-wing" element would encourage a lot more people to see it as a party with a mission, and decide to vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:54 AM

As is so often the case with the internet, once you start looking things become less clear.

I don't believe Peake quoted any source during her interview for her claim about the Israeli training US police to kneel on suspects necks. It seems her source was a blog post from 2012. Amnesty International then appear to have said that its report does not show any evidence of “neck kneeling” as a technique taught by the Israeli secret services, nor evidence that the Minnesota police force received training from the Israeli secret services.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:10 PM

I don't believe in stripping the Labour Party of anybody. There is a wide range of opinion in the party, but, instead of embracing that constructively, leaders such as Callaghan, Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Starmer regard the left as an inconvenient nuisance who must be kept sidelined. Well we don't like being sidelined and we won't be keeping quiet in the vain hope that a weak and unprincipled man such as Starmer might spend the next four years polishing his halo. He won't and he is currently just as "unelectable" as Jeremy Corbyn was last year (who, for you with short memories, surprised everybody in 2017 with a campaign predicated on principle and quiet dignity that didn't win the election but gave the lie to the mass media's claim that he was a basket case). Ironic that BWM's call for "compromise" would entail the right calling all the shots and the left keeping out of the way...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:20 PM

Steve, I never wanted Corbyn as leader, I always believed he was a bad choice. But, having been chosen by party-members in a democratic vote, and because I wanted a Labour government, I held my nose, supported him, and voted Labour whilst he was the leader.

Why can’t ‘clever people’ understand what a simple man like me is trying to tell them?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:35 PM

”Cobyn is a relatively inexperienced politician”

He’s been the MP for North Islington since 1983. I’ll do the sums for you, that’s thirty-seven years! ‘Inexperienced’? Give us a break!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:53 PM

"He’s been the MP for North Islington since 1983"
So have a lot of others - none of them would make good PMs right away
Islington North is a fair distance from Westminster
Jim
"Why can’t ‘clever people’ understand what a simple man like me is trying to tell them?"
Possibly because you support leaders who sack people who get in the way of their ambitions :-)
"I don't believe Peake quoted any source during her interview for her claim about the Israeli training US police to kneel on suspects necks"
You've been given the article - maybe she had a crystal ball - she certainly wasn't wrong
"the Labour Party would have garnered even less votes"
Surely - as your party is proving daily - it depends on what those votes?
Parlimentary politics is now totally discredited as a way - a laughing stock - even to those who still bother voting
EVEN YOUR YES_MEN KNOW THAT
Jim


Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:07 PM

I wonder who the real "enemy" is.

I always considered that the "enemy" should and would be the conservative party for those of us who support the labour party.

It would seem that some of us are intent on undermining the new leader to the extent that he is perceived as the "enemy".

As is it the media can sit back and watch as we scupper any chance of the labour party winning the next election and if we carry on the election after that.

Occasionally Iains pointed this out to us. Maybe just maybe he was correct, and you silly buggers just carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:11 PM

"THAT'S WHAT THEY DO TO US"
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:32 PM

Thanks, Robo. I understand your point better now and I agree. It is That type of tactic that should be called out. It still isn't antisemitic though :-)

Jim. Brexit Fatigue won the 2019 election - nothing else

That is one off those throwaway comments that needs calling out. There is no doubt that people were pissed off with Brexit inactivity. The Tories capitalised on that with three little words, Get Brixit Done, and it worked. There is no reason at all that Labour could not have done the same. Instead they prevaricted and confused people with mixed messages. So, sadly, Boris was wiser than Jeremy in this case.

As to Does Labour really need another Tony Blair ?. Well, until the Gulf war he was the most successful Labour prime minister I have known. The amount spent on health, education and social sercices were massive during his tenure. Until he dropped the ball with university fees he did remarkably well. The war was unforgivable and he, quite rightly, resigned over that.

So, in answer to your question, Yes. Without the war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:58 PM

”Possibly because you support leaders who sack people who get in the way of their ambitions”

No, Jim. If you actually read what I wrote several times over the past few days, and thought about it instead of launching into ideological rants at me, you’d realise that I support whoever the elected leader happens to be, including those I wouldn’t personally have chosen - e.g. Corbyn.

It’s called ‘party-loyalty’. And party-loyalty is a part of getting the party elected to government. This country desperately needs for Labour to get elected to government, and it won’t be helped to do that by turncoats who throw teddy out of the pram because they don’t like the leader.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:00 PM

Get the tories out, and keep 'em out.
But don't let our divisive lefty infighting
enable the far right to win Govt instead of us...

..simple innit...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

And, for the record, I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic - I’ve deliberately avoided making any judgment about that. The fact is that the party-leader decided to ask her to retract and, according to the reports I’ve seen and read, she refused. He was entirely within his rights to take disciplinary action.

The party is bigger than any individual MP, and the leader of the party deserves loyalty and support, even when he makes an unpopular decision. The time to attack the leader is if/when the party fails at the ballot-box, not during the first three months of his tenure and when he makes his first unpopular decision.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM

"whoever the elected leader happens to be, "
Does that include Blair ?
Wan't Corbyn elected - you said you didn't support him ?
"Well, until the Gulf war he was the most successful Labour prime minister I have known"
Well no, he wasn't - that was Attlee - hi Government rebuilt post-awar Britain, left us social housing and the National Health system - all Blair left us was a nasty taste in our mouth and New Labour
I think you might mean 'popuar' just as Brexit is popular and Johnson now is
And you back Boris's Brexit internecine butchery rather than Corbyn's attempts to keep his arty together curioser and curioser !
Are you sure you're supporting the right leader ????
Discussions like this certainly does seem to bring them out of their closets

If you don't mind - I'll stick with leaders who don't sack their collegues for telling the truth - which has yet to be challenged, by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:14 PM

Not sure who that was aimed at, Jim, but if it was me....

Re: “Wasnt Corbyn elected - you said you didn’t support him?”

Me - today, 12:20 PM -” Steve, I never wanted Corbyn as leader, I always believed he was a bad choice. But, having been chosen by party-members in a democratic vote, and because I wanted a Labour government, I held my nose, supported him, and voted Labour whilst he was the leader.“

I don’t understand any of the rest of your post, it certainly doesn’t refer to anything I recognise as having been posted by me. Unless you’re distorting and trying to put words in my mouth again?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 04:11 PM

Once again, Jim.

the most successful Labour prime minister I have known

Attlee held the role from 1945 to 1951. I was born in 1953.

Blair was entirely wrong about the war but aside from that he worked wonders for the Labour party, social equality and the NHS. I cannot think of anyone with a better track record. Until he ruined it by pandering to Bush but that was the end of his tenure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:14 PM

Ok.. hands up anyone now convinced Labour are so shit,
the tories should stay in power as long as they want to...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM

Actually, Dave, the gap between rich and poor got ever wider under New Labour. Not only that, Blair kept the Thatcher fuse burning via the extremely light touch apropos of regulation of the financial sector. That helped to precipitate the meltdown in 2008 and allowed the Tories to impose a decade of austerity on the most vulnerable. Just thought I'd mention it.

I'm finding some thinking in this thread by the anti-Corbynite faction in our midst that absolutely anything goes, including the ditching of all our principles, just in order to make us "electable." That appears to include keeping lefties very quiet, as if they're the ones who cause all the rifts in the party. Well Labour is SUPPOSED to be a left-wing party, lest you forget, and I don't know what you're thinking of if you think we should shut up. I also don't know what you're thinking of if you think that ditching principles can ever be an election winner for a genuinely humanitarian political party. It works for populist parties sure as eggs is eggs, as we've seen. But if we can't be better than that, I don't think we should bother. Maybe I'll go all daftly earth-mother and join the bloody Greens...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:09 PM

" our divisive lefty infighting..."

The "infighting" has not been lefty. It's been between the right-wing establishment wing of the party (Mann, Hodge, Smeeth, Ellman, Woodcock, etc), you know, the bastards who have toted Labour's electoral suicide note ever since Corbyn was elected leader, and a relatively principled leftie leadership (yeah, too unspun, too not media-savvy, more than a bit naive...). It's always been true in Labour that the left have endured ardent and passionate debate and have suffered differences in perspective. But, make no mistake, the real infighting has always been between establishment men to the middle-right and the left. Starmer is a completely typical member of the former. Watch that space. He has four years to fail, and, as he has no principles, he will. It's a dead cert. You'll end up wishing that Jezza was back...Think I'm mad, eh? Blimey, what do YOU know!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:55 PM

"the right-wing establishment wing of the party (Mann, Hodge, Smeeth, Ellman, Woodcock, etc)"

They are still lefty enough to need rounding up
and be sent packing back to Russia...

Well.. that's probably what our South West old tories, and even further right, would tell you...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 02:04 AM

”He has four years to fail, and, as he has no principles, he will. It's a dead cert.”

Maybe, maybe not. But he can’t do any worse than Corbyn. Where did Corbyn's principles’ get us? The worst election defeat in living memory. If that’s the party-members’ definition of a great leader, the Labour Party is well and truly buggered.

You'll end up wishing that Jezza was back...Think I'm mad, eh? Blimey, what do YOU know!

Rabid Left-Wing ideologues like you might feel that way, but I very much doubt that the majority of voters will feel the same. He was a walking disaster, and an absolute gift for the Tory Propaganda Machine. You really do need to give your head a wobble.

You do realise that, by your disloyalty to, and undermining of, the current democratically-elected leader, you’re making yourself as bad as the cabal you criticise so bitterly for their campaign to undermine Corbyn, don’t you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM

Labour made its appearance at a time when changes were desperately needed - it was a 'left' party with 'left' principles
Those left(ish) principles saw Britain though the devastation left behind the war and helped rebuild Britain
They gave people homes and created a health service envied by the world, it evened our some of the inequalities by giving the working person a voice in their place of work - the improvements that took place were down largely to 'lefty' principles - and there were plenty of them
Gradually they were whittled away by the right wing policies and coplromised being demanded here
The right wing sellouts by Wilson and Castle and those who followed them turned Labour into an Establishment Party - "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" (and occasionally, Government)
Right Wing New Labour plumbed the depths by co-operating with a right-wing American President and entering into the massive 'WMD' con-trick which has committed Britain to decades of war and a totally unmanageable wold-wide refugee crisis

Your right-wing takeover of the Labour Party has betrayed it's ideals (which you openly sneer at Baccie) and it has betrayed the very reason for its existence
Whenever it has betrayed those ideals it has left a smear on the name of Labour - the worst was the most recent was administered by Blair - that's won't be forgotten until young people are brought home from killing and dying
That's 'the right's' most memorable contribution to Labour's history

Your right-wing experiment has betrayed the Labour Party - about time to return to core values, I think

I really did think we'd seen the last of being referred to as a "leftie" as a term of abuse in these arguments - a nasty dose of deja vous, it would appear - think on't
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM

The only person ‘openly sneering’ round here is you, Jim. I’m simply asking for people like you and Steve to get real, get behind the leader, and stop undermining the only party capable of restoring social and economic justice in the UK.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

These are my final words to you. In Iains’ absence, you seem to have adopted me as a substitute and the new target for your word-twisting and accusatory tirades. Well you can forget it - from now, you’re talking to yourself.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:13 AM

"get behind the leader,"
Right ot wrong, you mean ?
Been there - done that
I suggest you look at what you've written about Corbyn and the "lefties) (your phrase) before you deny having sneered at people
You have the arguments of why we believe we shouldn't "get behind them" - how about tackling them
As for the leader being "elected" - so was Johnson - Brexit was supported across the board by Conservatives, Labour and in between
Shouldn't we "get behind that"?
Labour has tried right wing policies for many decades - look what has happened to the lesser well off of Britain by doing that
Time to get off the pot and give principles a chance, I think
If that fails, it can't be much worse that things have become
I honestly believe that, when this pandemic is over Starmet will throw in his lot with Johnson to "get Britain back on its feet" - and that will mean getting the lesser-well-off rather than those who can afford it to take the brunt of the coming economic crisis
We're already seeing that with record levels of unemployment and widespread closures - this is just the beginning
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:20 AM

yes, i'm finding this a bit disturbing. i don't know how often contributors here attend labour party meetings or how many active members they talk to. i've always been a left of centre member - pro cnd, tony benn, jeremy corbyn, sometimes vote green or scottish socialist anti-racist,anti-capitalist etc etc.....or whatever but always pro-peace and anti -tory. this has never changed yet now i'm a sellout apparently as some critics of the party claim to understand my motives and my tactics.. this reminds me of saturday trips up buchanan street where i have often stopped to talk with guys on a pro-israel stall very quickly i am labelled as a corbynite cult member and by definition -anti-semitic. it's nonsense. corbyn has sacked pro-palestine mps and looks like starmer will too. i'd guess that the vast majority of labour are bored and annoyed by the whole non-story. it's the biggest distraction that we have all fallen for = choose your splinter group and watch the tories crack on dismantling our country and the israeli government destroy palestine. we must put aside our petty, manufactured, self-indulgent differences and unite...i'm asking for solidarity but you will call it selling out. corbyn is 75 years old, he was impossible to work for on the doorsteps - he can reasonably retire from the front line having done a good job. but we must move on...together

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I still say that Blair was the most successful leader that I have known, Steve and nothing you have said disputes that. Yes, he totally cocked it up with the war. Until then he did a good job and kept the party in power. Had he not become Bush's lapdog I believe Labour's tenure would have gone on much longer and the political climate would have been vastly different today.

I have gone "all daftly earth-mother and joined the bloody Greens" BTW. You can have a good laugh at that and I really don't mind. Once the earth's resources have gone or the air is too polluted to breathe it won't matter whether we go down the left of right hand road :-( I have not yet given up my Labour party membership get though. Maybe they will expel me now but even though they have their faults and I said I would go, I am reluctant to depart!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:39 AM

"he was impossible to work for on the doorsteps"
So we'll send a senior QC to impress the people instead ?
Yeah - that should do the trick !!
It really is about time we moved away from personalities (and now their age)
and got around to discussing exactly what we should be "getting behind"
So far it has been to get behind someone who sacks his colleagues for telling it as it is
If Labour is to survive - which is doubtful, it needs a bit more than blind faith
There has to be either a reconciliation between all the views within the part and'or a cleansing of the Augian Stable
The Pary cannot serve any purpose by going on as it has been since Wilson declared war of the Trades Unions, which was the beginning of the downhill spiral
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Got my Green Party badge the other day BTW. Maybe I'll wear it to the next branch meeting :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Thing is..

.. we'll never know just how much Corbyn might have needed to compromise
and depart from his principles if he'd become Prime Minister,
and had to weather the storms and unexpected set backs of running our divided nation...???

He obviously would have been a far more honest and trustworthy leader
facing up to the onset of pandemic..

But personally, I doubt he'd have had the necessary stamina to cope with being in power for a full term...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM

i went to a green party conference in scarborough as a (labour party) observer last year, and actually stood for them for council about 5 years ago and have voted for the in the last euro elections. i continually bang on about green (and scottish) issues in labour constituency meetings. the 'green new deal' is an important initiative that everyone with good will can get behind. It has never caused any difficulty for me in the labour party. there are many areas that the 2 parties should co-operate with. i guess i'm selling out but i wouldn't want to become self-indulgent and bitter, insulting allies who are really doing what we can with the tory problem and saving the environment. all is a bit chaotic no-one really knows the best way to fight the good fight. but we need to be generous to each other. apart from the fu$$ing liberals obviously

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM

"we'll never know just how much Corbyn might have needed to compromise"
That is the case with anyboody who becomes leader
We do know lair came in with both socialist gunz blzing and threw his hands up as soon as he got their
We can only make our judgement on what they say - Corbyn said all the right - (whoops, sorry left) things

I have the benefit of PR here in Ireland so I have numerous preferences
My second preference was the Greens in the last election - but that won't happen again since they have united with the two right wing parties for the privilege of holding office and have already started to compromise on their own policies
Labour shoot itself in both feet several general elections ago buy doing the same thing - it lost decades of gains overnight

Think I've finished here for now - I might come back when the tabloid-like kicking match of "lefties" and Corbyn has run its course
Work calls
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

I've never minded being called a leftie, Jim, ever since my East London days in what was by far the most militant NUT local association in the country. We had some real revolutionaries there, though I never saw myself as being among their ranks. And, of course, we had Blair Peach. Now we really WERE lefties...

You are getting way too personal, BWM. It's all just opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:48 AM

"...it's the biggest distraction that we have all fallen for..."

Thing is, Pete, I don't think we've fallen for it as such - the distraction has actually been deliberately orchestrated by a cabal of Labour insiders (it would be too tiresome to list them yet again), aided and abetted by pro-Israel lobby groups such as the Board Of Deputies, and, I strongly suspect, the Israeli regime itself (at least one member of that cabal had close links thereto...). I used to read the local Jewish press in Manchester before I stopped needing to go up north about 18 months ago, and the papers were totally obsessed with going for Corbyn's throat in every way at every opportunity. For all these people, the disastrous downfall of Jeremy Corbyn, and Labour's being cast back into the wilderness, were small prices to pay for getting the more leftist, more pro-Palestinian influence extirpated from the party. Unfortunately, our new leader is conniving in that, and he will be found out. He has shown weakness, and the longer he's at the helm the more that weakness will show through. We simply can't have a world in which the only way to "achieve harmony" or "make ourselves electable" is to get into bed with Benjamin Netanyahu. The US has done that with him and his predecessors for decades and the Palestinian people are the ones whose suffering is perpetuated.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:54 AM

"I've never minded being called a leftie"
Me neither - it just worries me when it happens with people I feel I have things in common with
Let's face it, you only have to look at what's happened to the Labour Party
Before people start pointing fingers they need to examine why the Pary was set up and what has happened to those dreams and objectives
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:29 AM

What about a leftie peftie?

Where's Bonzo when you need him!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:43 AM

It'll be hilarious if Jim and Steve ever start calling each other too right wing..

That'd make me nostalgic for the good old days of the loony left...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:54 AM

well i'm calling for labour (and green and all other progressive forces) unity. i have no desire to get into bed with benjamin netanyahu. or suffer one more day of this ridiculous and dangerous english government. call me a sell-out or whatever you like...as donald trump said of the virus - just ignore all this anti-semitism -it's fictional, it's a distraction a nonsense - and one day it will disappear. or it will be there still but irrelevant against the issues of poverty, peace and inequality that should always be our focus. splitters!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

my plan to cheer us all up in these difficult days

1. greek authorities imprison stanley johnson for breaking their quarantine laws
2. boris johnson appeals to the greek govt for release of his father
3. greeks say 'give us back the elgin marbkes and we can do a deal'
4. elgin marbles shipped to athens.
5 stanley johnson shipped to an iranian jail
6 that poor nazarin -radcliffe woman reunited with her family in somewhere lovely
7. boris johnson appeals to the iranian government for his father's release
8. iranians demand that the uk get rid of the nuclear weapons....
9. boris johnson appeals to the EU for help in securing his father's release
10 guy verhofstadt laughs....and laughs....and laughs....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:23 AM

I'm curious why leftist Jews still do not have a much louder voice in the Labour party.

Why are they not more assertively prominent in the fight back against weaponised false accusations...???


Labour Jews who publicly supported Corbyn were routinely marginalised, dismissed, ignored, and vilified
by mainstream media and right wing pro Israel propagandists.

But by now they should be more 'battle hardened',
standing up louder and prouder as an authentic voice of leftist Jewish Labour defense and counter-attack,
against the contrived smear campaigns of the right...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:49 AM

I know we are living in strange times, but.....

Pubs in England will not be allowed to open until 06:00 BST on Saturday, No 10 has confirmed.

Have a drink Saturday

My local is not opening until the 18th at the earliest. Another pub that I use are opening on the 11th. With the new rules and regulations, it is hard to see how many are going to be able to survive if there is no improvement in the virus situation.

Stay safe

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:13 PM

" loony left..."
A phrase straight out of the bumwipe media - funny how thes things catch on with some people
Left is a straightforward description of someone's politics just as "loonie left is a pretty sound guide in working out the politic of the user

There are leftist Jews in the Labour Party - Corbyn was castigated for attending one of their meetings
Emigre Jews inspired the setting up of the Labour Party - until Israel's intervention in British politics when the BDS movement got underway there was never a hint that Labour had a "Jewish problem"
This was MY FAMILY'S INTRODUCTION TO POLITICS - "loony left extremism, of course!
The Jewish left have been quite vociferous in their opposition to the accusations - but like all good things, that sort of information is not for the likes of us

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:22 PM

Read this post from left to right:

student revolutionary>>first teaching job>>union shop steward>>promoted to position of responsibility>>marry>>kids>>mortgage>>buy bigger house>>promoted again>>stop being active in union>>vote against strike>>start to admire what Blair did>>middle age>>inherit a bob or two>>buy BMW>>posh foreign travel>>pay kids' uni fees from Bank Of Mum And Dad>>moan about how high top rate of tax is>>buy cheap bolt-hole in Spain>>buy shares>>decide you can't vote for Corbyn>>vote leave>>move to cottage at the seaside>>wife joins WI, you join golf club>>die thinking you haven't had your fair share...

Ah, how life pulls us in the "right" direction!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:35 PM

Another example of Starmer not exactly showing that he's a pillar of strength, from Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian:

Brexit once dominated our politics; now it is barely mentioned. The Conservative landslide last December seemed to settle it. Many of the Tory MPs who would have raised the coming no-deal threat have been purged. Keir Starmer is wary of raising it: he has his eye on leave seats, and is in no hurry to play the diehard remainer. He didn’t even press the government to seek an extension to the transition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:08 PM

was that your own story, steve - or was it referring to someone else? or just the typical path of many ex-labour supporters?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:38 PM

Nah, Pete. I made it up. I would never buy a Beamer or a bolt-hole in Spain, and wild horses wouldn't get me to a golf course or force me to buy shares, I've never voted against strikes, we only had one house move, the lad paid most of the cost of his university years, I hated Blair, always voted for Jezza, think that leave voters are generally demented and I'm not dead!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM

the "not dead" bit was the give away...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM

So the point of it was.....what?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM

"the "not dead" bit was the give away..."

Yet to be confirmed. I could be alive just from the neck down, with another gap half way down according to the missus... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:35 PM

According to my old man Steve, the expression (for people he held in low regard) was "Dead from the neck up to the navel down"

I use the same expression myself.

Sadly there are few people who comprehend just what I am trying to portrait these days.

As my Father would say.......................!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 05:24 PM

I was wondering whether some kind of emergency massage might just bring the middle bit back to viability... Nurse!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

Johnson has savaged Care Homes, blaming them for their high rate of contravirus cases

Stamer has been accused of "double Standards" for refusing to sack his Shadow Cabinet Communities Minister, Steve Reed, for making an anti-Semitic statement - pretty well puts into context the reason for these accusations
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:44 AM

I said that Starmer was going to make mistakes. The excuse that Reed "didn't know that Desmond was a Jew" isn't good enough. Labour members have been drummed out of the party for less. Either Starmer sacks him or the hawks will continue to circle. Four more years to confirm his unelectability...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM

I wasn't aware that "Puppet Master" was a Jewish trope. I thought a "Puppet Master" was just that a "Puppet Master" someone who pulled the strings whilst others danced.

I'm fairly sure I've met several "Puppet Masters" through my life, I'm not sure that any of them where Jewish.

So just how are we supposed to refer to "Puppet Masters" in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 11:57 AM

"I wasn't aware that "Puppet Master" was a Jewish trope. I thought a "Puppet Master" was just that a "Puppet Master" "
I didn't realise that criticising Israel was antisemitic but that's what he sacked the lady for
If he'd had any sense he would have challenged the term, but that would have really blown the gaff
Instead, he agreed it was and reprimanded Reed for his antisemitism - thus identifying him the two-faced politician he obviously is
He should resign and be replaced with someone prepared to defend the Labour Party
This whole thing stinks of "You're only accusing me because I'm Black"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 01:20 PM

i heard folk talking about spme labour mp's comment on richard desmond on the radio and did not know what they were on about. since when was 'puppet master' an anti-semitic term? really? really? and is richard desmond jewish? really? how would anyone know? or care? what percentage of people reading this story would understand these 2 ideas? perhaps someone could tell us where the offence is? who is claiming to be offended? and why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 03:01 PM

"who is claiming to be offended? and why?"
Does it really matter
What is important is that Staamer said it was and refused to sack the accused
I think this nonsense of everything disapproved of by whoever being "antisemitic" if someone claims it is has to stop
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 04:51 PM

yes, but chris williamson was sacked for - as i remember 'labour needs to stop apologising so much about accusations of anti-semitism' we can't forever be letting labour's extremely sensitive tory enemies set the agenda of what we are allowed to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 05:11 PM

Terms such as puppet-masters, when used to depict people in control of large organisations, secretly pulling strings, are age-old antisemitic tropes when applied to Jews. What Reed did was far worse than what RLB did. She was referring to the activities of the Israeli regime. He was referring to an old stereotyping of Jews. He's a politician, not just any old bloke down the pub. It's no excuse for him to say he didn't know that the chap was a Jew. The Labour Party has history when it comes to kicking someone out of the party despite that excuse. Of course, in that case it was a leftie. In this case, it's a buddy of Sir Keir. Make your own mind up as to whether that's a double standard.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:11 PM

" we can't forever be letting labour's extremely sensitive tory enemies set the agenda of what we are allowed to talk about."
These accusations began four weekes after a meeting between Labour's 'Friends of Israel Group' and members of the Knesset in Jerusalem, which in tturn came a couple of weeks after Corbyn announced his support for the Palestinians
Up to that, there wasn't a whiff of suspicion about "a problem"
Israel ir run by an extremist right wing administration, so the 'Frieds of Israel' are "friends" with a right wing regime
I'm afraid the Tories have little to do with this other than to have leapt on an already moving bandwagon
Work it out
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:19 PM

To be clear, I was referring to Marc Wadsworth, expelled after the theatrical put-up job orchestrated by Ruth Smeeth at the launch of the Chakrabarti report on alleged antisemitism in the party. Wadsworth is a lifelong campaigner against racism but that counted for nothing when set against getting a leftie out of the party. Smeeth has long-time links with Israeli politicians and is closely allied with pro-Israel lobby groups in the UK, including Labour Friends Of Israel, BICOM (founded by the son of an Israeli arms dealer, using his dad's wealth) and the Board Of Deputies, for whom she's worked. Wadsworth didn't know Smeeth and didn't know that she was Jewish, but he called her out when he witnessed her colluding with a right-wing journalist. But he's gone, and Reed isn't. As the yanks say, go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM

Smeeth's role in all this HAD BEEN A KEY ONE
I must admit that, when I first became interested in all this I believed it to be a knee-jerk reaction to the threat of BDS, but I am finding that it GOES BACK MUCH FURTHER
This orgainsed interference in international politics has been going on for far longer than anybody imagined
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM

Remember, nobody is allowed to accuse Israel of conspiracies,
not even when then they are so blatantly conspiring,
only a very cowardly fool would deny it was happening...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:07 AM

There was a long letter to The Irish Times yesterday condemning the recent actions in annexing Palestinian land
The letter takes up a column and a quarter, and the list of signatories a column and three waters(36 signatories in all - a worldwide list of political dignitaries, Nobel prizewinners and officers), U.N. committee Members, and human rights representatives - and the former Prime Minister of Norway.
There are a couple of Americans on the list and several Irish ones - but not one single British name - Labour or Conservative
The seem far too busy accusing maverick humanists of "antisemitism"
This act of annexation is one of the most dangerous moves to have taken place in an already toxic aea for a long time, yet ours and America's and many other national and world leaders have washed their hands of it
The British Labour Party Leader has already made his position on Israeli human rights abuses - and we should support this man out of loyalty to the party - 'Hell no - I won't go"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 08:37 PM

So the chancellor has given a 25 grand tax break to people buying houses that cost half a million. Oh, and we can get ten quid off a restaurant meal that we would have been buying, or not, anyway. Oh, and he's giving companies a thousand quid for every employee they take back off furlough. There's one burger chain (the Beeb Coronaviruscast show didn't say which one, but it'll be a lot more than just the one...) will potentially make a hundred million from that, even though they were probably going to take most of them back anyway...

Welcome to Tory Britain. Say "To them that have, it shall be given."   Don't say "We're all in this together."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 04:48 AM

So the chancellor has given a 25 grand tax break to people buying houses that cost half a million. Oh, and we can get ten quid off a restaurant meal that we would have been buying, or not, anyway.

If you only show half the story, of course it can look bad. Everyone (rich & poor) can get the price reduction for eating out, and:
Companies as well as individuals buying residential property worth less than £500,000 will also benefit from these changes, as will companies that buy residential property of any value where they meet the relief conditions from the corporate 15% SDLT charge.
It's worth noting that the average cost of a house in London is now over £500,000

The purpose of the changes is not to put money in the pockets of the rich, but to get the economy moving.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:08 AM

" but to get the economy moving"
Is that confirmation that houses are no longer homes but adjuncts of "the economy" Nigel
As things have stood for a long time, the only people to actually "benefit" from a healthy economy are the well of - mainly the invesstos - all the rest of us have ever been able to hope for is to earn enough to feed our families and pay our mortgages; even "paying the rent" has become a thing of the past", since Mad Maggie all but destroyed rented property.
Would you like to hazard a guess which sections of the society are due to be hardest hit in the next decade or so
INTERESTING ARTICLE HERE
AND HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM

Two things, Nigel. First, I made a mistake: the stamp duty handout is up to £15000, not £25000. Second, the struggling first-time buyers who buy my mum's old house in Radcliffe for £140,000 gain nothing. A first-time buyer in Cornwall buying a two-bed house for, say, £220,000 will gain £1500. Someone buying a £1.4 million house in Richmond, west London, will gain £15,000. As I said, to them that have it shall be given. You bollocked me for telling half the story, then you did that Tory thing of forgetting the word "some" that should have been in your highlighted bit: "individuals buying residential property worth less than £500,000 will also benefit from these changes..." SOME individuals, Nigel, and the ones who gain nothing will overwhelmingly be people living in the poorest parts of the country. As ever, wot Tories do.

As for the meal discount, it's a stunt. If I do decide to eat out in August, which is extremely unlikely around here with all these tourists pouring in, I won't be claiming. As you say, available to everyone, the rich and the poor alike, no targeting of the people who need the most help. As ever, wot Tories do.

As for the furlough bonus, the biggest companies who can more easily soak up their lockdown losses, who were probably going to take back most or all of those workers anyway, must think it's their birthday.

Still, never mind. It's all only taxpayer money after all. The taxpayer who is eventually going to foot the bill for this disaster. And you can bet your bottom quid that it won't be the richest who feel the pain. We have ten years of austerity history to support that prediction. As ever, wot Tories do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:57 AM

Mean while is institutional racism within the police going to be affected by Morris Dancers deciding to not use different colour disguise on their faces?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 07:59 AM

Two things, Nigel. First, I made a mistake: the stamp duty handout is up to £15000, not £25000. Second, the struggling first-time buyers who buy my mum's old house in Radcliffe for £140,000 gain nothing
Only by being 'first time buyers'. And for them they could previously buy a property up to £300,000 without paying stamp duty.
For anyone else the saving on a £140,000 house purchase is small, but not nil.
The previous zero rated band went only up to £125,000.

then you did that Tory thing of forgetting the word "some" that should have been in your highlighted bit:
No, I omitted nothing. I gave a straight quote from the current government guidance:

As for the meal discount, it's a stunt. If I do decide to eat out in August, which is extremely unlikely around here with all these tourists pouring in, I won't be claiming. As you say, available to everyone, the rich and the poor alike, no targeting of the people who need the most help. As ever, wot Tories do.
No! It is targetting the people who need it, the entertainment industry who are trying to keep their businesses afloat.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 08:04 AM

" but to get the economy moving"
Is that confirmation that houses are no longer homes but adjuncts of "the economy" Nigel
As things have stood for a long time, the only people to actually "benefit" from a healthy economy are the well of - mainly the invesstos - all the rest of us have ever been able to hope for is to earn enough to feed our families and pay our mortgages; even "paying the rent" has become a thing of the past", since Mad Maggie all but destroyed rented property.

The fact that the sale and purchase of houses is part of the economy does not mean that they are "no longer homes". That is a totally false argument.
Also the property market is obviously part of the economy. The employment of builders and tradesmen, the sale of household appliances and much else besides requires the availability of new property, which also (often) requires others to be willing and able to move home.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

is part of the economy does not mean that they are "no longer homes".
Yes it does Nigel
Thatcher sold them to Britain as investments - I saw the results close at hand as people were forced to walk away from what were once their homes after having been forced to take on Mortgages they could not afford
The rental market all bus disappeared overnight
Countries lik The Soviet Union, despite all their faults, guaranteed a toof over the people's heads as part of the constitution
The post war Labour Government created a social homes system equal to none - opposed and derided by your Tories - and eventually destroyed by you
Whatever lip service is paid to "homes" - once you hang an affordable price tag on them, they become something else
Go tell me what the minimum wage is for someone aspiring to live (or continue living) in the South East of England
Like higher education - now way out of reach of the less well off - even when working
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 09:42 AM

I am not aware that people were forced to buy their council houses.

The state rented market has definitely fallen but then there has probably been an increase in the private rental market.

What nobody can dispute is that there is a shortage of housing in the country at the moment. I cannot see it being dealt with unless you have the state/councils building more properties. That seems unlikely though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:14 AM

"I am not aware that people were forced to buy their council houses."
It started out as an 'opt into scheme' but the gradual withdrawing of Government financial support and other pressures eventually led that to being edged out of existence

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:16 AM

The problems are that when people bought their council homes, local autrities wer enot allow to build a new home to replace. Secondly, the disparity between private and social rents can be massive. For insyance in a hpiusing estate near where I live, in the same floor in the same block - one falt remained a council flat, the other was purchased under right to buy then sold on to be part of the private rented housing portfolio - idetical flats the rant for one less than £500, the rent for the other about £1,500 per month. Thirdly, housing , particularly higher value are often boought, not to be lived in but to be sold on as investments, or lower costs done up to put them outside the reach of first time buyers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM

SORRY - PREM EJAC
In !772, 48% of Britaain's population lived in Council Houses, by 2008, that had shrunk to less than 8%

THIS BEING THE RESULT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:19 PM

Thatcher encouraged factory workers on our council estate
to become home owners.
Then within a couple of years the factory went bust,
putting them out of work,
unable to pay their mortgages.

Those ex council homes would have become easy pickings at auction,
for vulture investors/landlords waiting for this inevitable outcome...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 07:14 AM

Sir Keir Starmer, the Leader of the Labour Party, calmly beating the Prime Minister about the head in PMQs right now on BBC Politics Live. He makes a complete fool of Johnson every week in PMQs, and Johnson’s only response is to lose his rag and try to blame Labour for the failures of his own policies and actions.

A joy to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 04:17 AM

It's interesting that, despite the whole mass over obviosus cock-ups and contradictions on how the pandemic is being handled - particularly with a push from the top for people to get back to work "for the sake of the economy" while at the same time, discussing 'locking-in' parts of Lancashire, there is no actual move to stop this appalling Government doing the damage they are doing
They are being allowed to do (or not do) they are doing totally unhindered - by Starmer, or anybody else - Starmer and Johnson are two sides of the same coin
Johnson castigates people who break lock-down rules while, at the same time, refusing to discipline Dom the Div for blatantly riding rough-shod over them
Starmer sacks a minister for so-called antisemitism, and refuses to do anything about a similar claim because the perp is a mate and supporter
These people have lost any right to trust and respect their elevated position has given them
Time to call in the Pest Control people, it would appear - they all need replacing with leaders with principles before they bring Britain further to its knees than it already is
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM

while it's plane to all of us and to all sentient beings that the government is greedy, reckles, feckless and evil with literally no redeeming features. we have to accept that there is a large portion of people in england who just don't see it that way. last week i heard 3 people agree that johnson has done pretty well since he has a lot on his plate with being ill, new baby ....unprecendented this but same for everywhere that........

But what about all the extra deaths? what about scotland and a more sensible approach.....but my heart wasn't in it - fuckem! i'm sick of having to have more or less the same argument every day - i really don't want to give up on my fellow citizens...but

i had a look in the window at my local the other day - despite the right intentions on notices on the door there are still folks hanging around the bar and no sign of social distancing. i'll be sticking to relatively quiet beer gardens for now. much as i long for a pint of Jarl.

all the above are people that have to vote labour. it's a dirty game to get the approval of the shitty papers but we have to turn it around. on doorsteps at election i have heard 'not voting for corbyn' too many times and we have a lost a good mp to a far right tory thug - our new Workington man.

call me a sell-out if you like. i want rid of the tories above all else in politics. with corbyn i was hoping for a decent socialist government for a few years before i die. now i've downgraded my hopes and would be happy - for now at least- with a victory followed by a decent sensible government (answerable to conference and a left executive - but don't tell anyone)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:47 AM

If you want to know why Starmer is the wrong man, read Lynsey Hanley's article in the Guardian today, "Labour will win by changing minds - not pandering to right-wing voters." Starmer is compared with Roy Jenkins, hardly a leftie, who refused to pander to public opinion and right-wing voters (as Starmer tries to do, and don't even mention pandering to the pro-Israel lobby) and, as Home Secretary, pushed through reforms that went AGAINST public opinion, abolishing the death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality, making divorce easier and making abortion legal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:10 AM

i'm confident a new labour government will address the state of our public services, will have a serious attempt at inequalities and looking after the more vulnerable - and many other policies that would be popular. i suppose the current idea is to take on the (fantasy) anti-semitism issue to try to differentiate from corbyn. totally unfair though the attacks on JC were - they did bring him down. if the worst they can throw at KS is a donkey field and a load of angry, disaffected trots then he should get an easier ride. as i said it's a dirty game - but i really do value our public services - human rights and our relationships with our allies in europe and beyond.

pete (please Joe, change my name again as requested)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:25 AM

What makes you confident about any of that WM ?
Corbyn came in with a new broom and the Govenment and media raised this and threw everything they could at him in order to make sure his ideas weren't accepted - he was "The Spectre that haunted Britain and became 'The enemy of the State'
Of coutse those ideas were "unpopular" - we've had decades of Labour politicians who sold out their principles in order to gain a degree of popularity
Given the racism statistics in Britain, I would not hesitate to suggest that any political party which adopts a "send 'em back to where they came from" policy would shoot up the popularity poll tomorrow
If being popular is all that matters, why not adopt that approach ?
That would be populist opportunism - that's why not
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 09:09 AM

I get that some people on the thread do not think much of Starmer. Fine. I haven't posted much during this two minute hate session, but there is a heck of a lot of other UK politics of relevance. I probably won't post here again until the introspection is over and we start talking about some of those.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:02 AM

Surely the behaviour of the leader of the Labour Party is worth more than that Mac - he is either guilty of what he has been accused of here or he is innocent
Some of us have been long time supporters of the Party to describe criticism of the leader as "a hate session" removes our right as supporters to criticise the party we support
I thought that sort of thing was the domain of the Tory Party
If he 'didn't do it' - why not join those who support that idea
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM

Jim - Having said all that.. and there is very much we agree on..

I'd rather concentrate at least 90% of my limited time and energy
directly fighting back against the tories and even further right..

Rather than wasting it on distracting self defeating Labour in-fighting...

Starmer is presently the latest party leader,
and that's who we have to hang our hopes on for the time being..

Like it or lump it...

The primary goal must be kicking the tories out,
without blunderingly helping the far right replace them in Govt...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:29 PM

Wasting your time, pfr - none are so blind as they who refuse point-blank to see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:32 PM

i'd agree with that pfr. clearly, many of us have spent a lifetime fighting the tories with principles and activism. we have lost every time and now is worse than ever. when you look at the state we are in with this government i'm afraid some of our principles look a bit self indulgent and fiddling while england burns.

Jim - of course i don't know for certain that labour would be able to address some of the problems of public services and low pay. but you wouldn't need full-on socialism to do this . when we get power the country is likely to be in a terrible state. any sensible government would have to try to tackle thse problems. even blair put loads of money into health, social care and education. some of that was ppi - a terrible error - i don't think we'll be making that mistake again. but we can never even begin to think about progres unless we win an election....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:24 PM

There is no evidence that Labou under Stamer will fight the Tories - they never really have since they sung to the right - when did they
When did they ever put right the damage the previous Governments had done - every mistake they made as put down to the last lot remember however many "years of Tory misrule"
No socialisty policies - no significant chamnges, the Wilson Govenment was among the first to attack the Trades Unions
Unemployment has risen under both Labour and Tory governments, industries like shipping, coal, and steel dwindled to nothing due to lack of investment from Labour and Tory Governments - in essence, there are no distinguishing features between Right-Wing Labour and Tory policies - the only difference is that the Tories are better at Toryism
Right wing Labour is third rate Torysism - If you want Tory policies, vote Tory, if you want Tory Policy in velvet gloves vote Lin Dem
Corbyn offer a return to principles - so fart this feller has offered double standards and ministers being sacked for telling the truth (unless you are one of his mates)
If you want to fought - fight for decent policies and leadership within your own party
For all his good debating Stamer will make no difference - what happens on the floor of the house no longer concerns the people of Britain, who regard parliamentary politicians as a sick joke not to be trusted - who gives a toss what happens in The House nowadays - honestly !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:40 PM

ok, jim.what is your plan for getting rid of the tories?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:41 PM

Jim - step back in the real world for a few seconds..

Do you want us here in Britain to suffer many more years of tory misgovernment,
or would you like to hand the keys of no 10 to ukip,
[or whatever name they next rebrand themselves...???]...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:40 AM

"Do you want us here in Britain to suffer many more years of Tory misgovernment,"
That's a fairly meaningless slogan PFR and one I have become rather tired of
To blame one Party for the continuing deterioration of a situation that has taken place under the jurisdiction of all parties is to miss the point big-time
I listed the losses under both Labour and Tory administrations, did they or did they not happen, and were or were not all the Parties involved ?
I believe they were - they happened, and will continue to happen because all parties, whatever their nuances of difference in tactics, share the same objective - to preserve the status quo

The Labour Party was set up with 'a calling' - to change society for the betterment of all
Gradually, its policies have become indistinguishable from the rest of those running in the Parliamentary rat-race
In a way, Blair did us all a favour by ending the pretence and formalising the similarities with his 'New Labour' - that should have set enough alarm bells off enough to take action
Then we had the Bumbling Brown fiasco

Accusations of 'leftism' from some sections of the Party are indicative of how far off the path Labour has wandered from its raison d'être - using the reason that Labour was set up in the first place as an insult!!!
In doing this, those Party members have lined themselves up with the Tories, Murdoch's bum-wipe press - and all those trolls who have come to forums like this using 'Leftie' as an epithet
I look on being a "leftie" with pride - a sign of humanity and fairness - those who believe being left is in some way wrong is not only backing the wrong horse - they've come to a different horse-race

Corbyn was an other unknown - a newbie learning the trade of Parliamentary Politics, yet she shook the system by it's very roots over the short period he was in the limelight
He attracted the hatred and fear of the establishment and their toadies in a way no other Party Leader ever has - even to the point of forcing right-wing regimes abroad to begin to interfere in British politics - that alone has to be a sign that something needs to change

You all know what is likely to happen to the British people when the pandemic ends and Brexit begins to kick in - already The Tories are beginning to join the Trumpite Quadrille in making the lesser well of pay for wiping up the mess
Are you really happy to watch this taking place with yet another right-wing status quo-er at Labour's helm - one who has already shown his double-standards, his lack of loyalty to his collegues and his lack of socialist principles?
Yeah - well !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:58 AM

'do you want us here in britain to suffer many more years of tory government' is a meaningless PR slogan'

so, jim, the plan is 'something has to change'

hmmm....the worst thing we could do on this thread is to indulge in pointless - 'who is more left than who' squabbles - PFJ/JPF. not because it matters what happens here but because it reduces the point and the purpose of our discussion.

we can all agree we are (mostly) on the left and we are all in the shit. what is the best way out? (by the waay i'm not even sure if the terms right or left have much relevance anymore (how about wreckers/progressives?))

we have to get rid of the tories. as ever - it's idealism v pragmatism. i'm once a trot and still a trot but absolutely sick of losing . however, me sticking to those ideas will do nothing to get help to the most vulnerable.( nor will it help to restore rights to our Scottish children in Italy and Estonia)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:12 AM

Jim - come on, you know fully well that any Labour Govt has never been as evil
as the tories would have been in their place...

You also know socialism does not stand a hope in hell anymore,
in this new age of instant worldwide right wing internet propaganda.

They hold the power and wealth that counts.. we don't, and probably never will.

So yes, any lefty with any sense will have to swallow bitter compromise
to try to kick the tories out for a few years every couple of decades,
if we can.....

Lesser of two evils will always have to suffice,
and is at least more realistically achievable than dogmatic socialist utopia...

Back in the 1970s Citizen Smith was a comic stereotype revolutionary both left and right could have a chuckle at.

Now most British voters would want to troll him to death with internet hatred...

That's the present day reality that Starmer is facing up to..
.. and for all his faults, do you seriously suggest he will be worse for our living standards and future,
than the tories or ukip...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:23 AM

My point about Starmer is that he's the same-old and that he can't and won't beat the Tories in a month of Sundays. We need a party that offers real change and gives the country a real alternative. Tell me where you see that coming from with Starmer, because I don't see it. He's a panderer and that will not give a reason for the electorate to vote for change. The bumwipe press saw Corbyn as a real threat after the 2017 election and thereafter did the business on him. One massive thing that Blair got right was to get Murdoch on his side. A dirty business that went a long way to keep him in power. A string of feckless Tory leaders helped, but his trump card was that he had charisma. We have to suck all that up and learn from history. Starmer has all the attributes of a loser so far.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I was hoping Corbyn would be in place long enough to mentor a younger successor
with his principles,
but none of his historic baggage - which the tory media would exploit
to discredit him.

Unfortunately Corbyn got pushed prematurely into an election...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:47 AM

I've forgotten if Miliband was any use,
or if he would have stood with, or stood up to, the antisemitism false accusers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

The reality of the situation is quite simple.

Whichever leader Labour puts forward he or she will be vilified by the media, they will be torn apart as Corbyn was.

The merely fact that many of us here thought Corbyn to be a decent man did not get him into power. Nor will it ever do so.

So, the question has to be how do we get a Labour leader into power.

Unfortunately that mean electing someone like Blair to the leadership. We may not like it but unless we do we face spending decades as opposition.

That is the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

I have never mentioned evil why compare yourself to the worst
Who says socialiam doesn't stand a chance - not me ?
Something positive has to replace what we have - why not a fair distribution of the world's benefits and rights - is that really too much to ask ?
I don't speak for other people - I have no idea what they would or would not stand for and it would be arrogant of me to claim otherwise
All you can do is argue your case
Despite claims to the contrary, socialism has never really been tried - aimed for, yes, but never achieved
For all the faults of those who tried it, it achieved comparative miracles over comparatively short periods - backward peasant nations into world contenders, in some cases
The willing sacrifices of the people of the Soviet Union show fairly clearly that those who lived there were, up to a point, prepared to bite the bullet to make their lives better

"Milliband"
It really is time we moved from speculating on personalities - most of these leaders have proved to have clay feet
It's long-term objectives rat have to count if the world is to survive now
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:00 AM

"Who says socialiam doesn't stand a chance - not me ?"

Jim - sorry to have to be the one to break it to you like this,
but Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy are never going to visit you either...

..and the second coming of Jesus is starting to look just as unlikely as well...

Wait.. what's that.. rumours that Elvis is about to make a come back...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:27 AM

Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it? "Something will have to change" and "socialism has not been tried" are not plans. We tried Corbyn. That didn't work. Starmer has not been in office long enough. Give us your alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:27 PM

"Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it?"
I haven't one Dave - what's yours?
If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?

Corbyn didn't "fail" - he was crushed into silence by the situation, by a virulent campaign by the establishment and their toadies in the media - he left with his ideals intact, having tried his best
The fact that he drew the support he did
That was the first sortie in a long battle - the fact that he drew the support he did as quickly as he did is an indication that not everyone has grown old and lost the dream - they have my best wishes
Tired and disillusioned ex socialists sneering at the ideals of Socialism is going to bring about the end of the Labour Party as a vehicle for change
If Starmer manages to reintroduce New Labour back into the Party, as he obviously aims to, the Party will have failed - not those with the balls try
He's already made his intentions perfectly clear in sucking up to the right of the Pary y sacking those who might rock the boat
His extremely selective take on accusations of antisemitism makes him a ruthlessly dishonest politician - the fact that is it done to appease the "Friends" if an extremist right-wing State which is working cheek-by-jowl with the nutter in Pennsylvania Avenue doesn't auger well for either Britain or the party
Things are changing rapidly in Britain - Brexit and the damage done by the Pandemic has guaranteed that, without a decent opposition, that is going to last for a long-long time

I've taken to reading the right-wing press more than I ever did (for various reasons) - I have never seen a Tory leader under attack from every quarter as Johnson is at present - it is second only to the attacks made on Corbyn
The limp-wristed wafle from the leader of the opposition is a bloody disgrace to any half-decent progressive party in my recollection
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:50 PM

Jim - as always your analysis and historical perspective is admirably spot on.

But it's your conclusions and prescriptions that tend to go a bit amiss..

It should be obvious that any right wing media attacks on Boris,
are merely paving the way for him to be stabbed in the back
and replaced by gove,
or some other rival ruthless tory villain burning with ambition to be PM..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:02 PM

"Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it?"
I haven't one Dave - what's yours?
If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?”

The last refuge of a scoundrel - ‘answering’ a question with a question.

Anybody can determine that there’s a problem - it’s childishly simple. Coming up with the solution is the difficult bit. Not as clever as you’d like us all to believe then?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM

No Baccie - tha last refuge is not answering any of the questions asked
"stabbed in the back"
Maybe so, but that is not indicated by the tenor of the attacks
We have discussed ad-nauseum the appalling way theis government of clowns has mishandled the pandemic - no-one, as I remember, has disagreed
The press, lefyt and right have condemned it, medical experts have done the same.
Starmer has just publicly announced that "the way ahead is to have confidence in the measures put into place by Johnson's Government"
Anybody like to square that particular circle ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM

Google isn't showing that phrase as anything Starmer said, and I haven't found it in Hansard. Of course Google might not have indexed it yet, so can you give a link to where he said it? The exact phrasing of the original is important. For example, if he said Johnson needs to put forward a plan for the way ahead that we can all have confidence in, it would have a very different meaning. So if possible, a link to the full text where he said it, rather than a journalist's interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:48 PM

"Google isn't showing that phrase as anything Starmer said, "
I,ve just watched it on the BBC six oclock news - maybe Google can't get BBC
That is more or less word-for-word what he said
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:49 PM

Your questions are pointless, Jim, entrenched as they are in Left-Wing ideology and rhetoric which bears no relationship to the thinking and views of the majority of Labour-voters - and before you ask how could I possibly know that, I refer you to November 2019, the worst landslide Labour defeat in living memory presided over by your Golden Boy, the huge number of former Labour voters who deserted because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn, and the 81-seat Conservative majority that has made the Labour Party a complete irrelevance for at least the next four years.

Get a bloody grip man.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:47 PM

I haven't one Dave - what's yours?

We have Starmer for leader. I plan to get behind him until either Labour is back in power or the leadership changes. Whether I agree with him or not he is what we have and, for now, the only chance we have.

If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?

I do have one. As stated above. I expect anyone who disagrees with something to have an alternative.

Corbyn didn't "fail" - he was crushed into silence by the situation,

So he didn't have either the courage of guile to fight as dirty as they did. Admirable in the man but fatal in politics. If he didn't fail, why is he not currently residing at number 10?

makes him a ruthlessly dishonest politician

Sadly, at present, that is what seems to win elections.

When you find this place where politicians are honest, Socialism is a viable alternative and the press are fair, let me know. I'll book my ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM

"We have Starmer for leader.!"
Is that a confession ?
I know who the leader is and I know what he has done
Any member otr supporter of a party who thinks discussing their leaders behaviour is pointless can't have much regard for that party's ethics or principles
You have neither denied nor explained his bahaviour to date
Sorry - I think I've made my point as you have yet to make yours
Interesting to see Labour supporters now participating in the same kicking match that the right-wing media launched into shortly after he arrived
Politics makes strange bedfellows eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:26 PM

Incidentally Baccie
This is the umpteenth time you have made an attack on Left wing politics - PFR has expressed his contempt for socialist ideals "tooth fairy" et al
Elsewhere there have been demands for "moderacy" - as if anything that has been suggested has been "immoderate
Where do you people Labour's politics should lie exactly
I find some of these arguments indistinguishable
Perhaps if we could establish where people stand politically themselves i wwe are going to understand each other
I have never uttered a single extremist view on what I believe, but I come away thinking I might not have been concentrating and have suggested storming Westminster and string up all its occupants
What exactly to you people have against socialist ideals to make you believe them to be so extreme ?
It's a bit late in the day to expect answers but who knows..... Crappy television programmes beckon
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM

"Tired and disillusioned ex socialists sneering at the ideals of Socialism "

"PFR has expressed his contempt for socialist ideals "

Jim - I'll tell you the same, I tell Ake and anyone else
who deliberately misconstrue what I say,
blatantly shoehorning it into fitting their bias..

You are talking flagrant bollocks.. [definitely not fragrant...]

My answer is NO, to all the tripe I have just quoted from you..

You are wrong to even think that of me...

Principles and theory are all well and good to guide how we aspire to interact with the real world...

But mostly only immature naive young idealists see them as absolutely dogmatically set in stone rules,
irrespective of the realities of this cruel brutal ruthless world we try to survive in...

It is inflexible doctrinaire folks like you who can't stop themselves handing victory
to our right wing opponents...

They want more loose canon lefties like you to assist in their divide and rule...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:55 PM

We all know how this goes now. Jim asks for answers to questions he has either not asked or has had answers to before. He then gets shirty and accuses everyone disagreeing with him of a) being right wing, b) having the favour of the mods or c) suppoting Israel. The situation then gets out of hand and the insults start flying. The thread is then closed.

Any takers for 10 to 1 on?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM

Well.. Maybe Barb'ry could then make a surprise return, and start a new fresh thread for us...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:27 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:28 PM

Jim, for the love of God, how many fucking times do I have to say it before you get it through your head?

1) I’m sick to death of the succession of Conservative governments we’ve had for the past ten years, and the damage they have inflicted on this country, especially on the most vulnerable members of society.

2) I want a Labour government.

3) I believe that any Labour government is better than any Conservative government, irrespective of leader.

4) To use your words, “Something has to change”. The Labour Party is the only party capable of bringing change IMHO, but that can’t happen unless and until it achieves a majority in a GE. In opposition, and with an 81-seat deficit, it is impotent.

4) I’m not a party member, I have no vote in party leadership elections but, like everyone I guess, I have personal preferences.

5) I didn’t want Corbyn as leader but, when he was democratically elected by the party membership, I gave him the respect he deserved in that position, spoke in support of him, and voted for my Labour candidate at the 2019 GE. My doubts about Corbyn’s suitability for the position of leader were validated by the unmitigated disaster of the election - the Labour Party under Corbyn was unelectable.

6) I didn’t want Starmer as leader, my preference came third in the election but, Starmer having been democratically elected by the party membership, I give him the respect he deserves in that position, I speak in support of him, and I will vote for my Labour candidate in the next GE, whenever that may be. It’s an old-fashioned concept called ‘Loyalty’, and I live in hope that he will be able to make the party electable once again..

7) it seems to me that the very people who screamed blue-murder about the treachery and back-stabbing that went on against Corbyn are the self-same ones who are now undermining and displaying similar treachery against Starmer. Treachery is treachery, no matter which side the perpetrator of that treachery is on. Think on that.

8) In his first period as leader, Starmer has achieved something that Corbyn never could - he has outwitted and out-debated the Conservative leader at PMQs, and clearly demonstrated that arm-waving, big words, and bluster are all Johnson’s got. Starmer has four more years to organise, formulate policies, and devise a a strategy to neutralise the Tory Propaganda and Smear Campaigns that will undoubtedly increase in intensity the closer we get to an election. I’m prepared to give him the chance to do that.

9) To bring about change, the Labour Party has to be electable. Under Corbyn, for whatever reasons, it was unelectable. I hope that under the new leader it will become electable once more.

Now that’s your lot. Instead of firing off questions at all and sundry and demanding that they explain themselves, let’s hear your brilliant master-plan for creating a successful Socialist State in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:39 PM

You're sick of Tory governments, right? So you see this Gordon Brown/Ed Miliband cardboard cutout bloke as some kind of answer, eh? Well we have four years to go, and we've already seen this weak man pandering to the pro-Israel lobby and ditching his principles in order to sack a damn good prospect for the party. All that does is give succour to his adversaries in the press and the Board of Deputies to pounce ever more on every little bloody thing he says or isn't being seen to do at their behest. He simply can't and won't shake them off. Everybody on the planet knows that being good at PMQs is not wot the people of this country see as leader material. In the current climate, cheap populism trumps stuff like that every time, and the Daily Mail will always see to that. Having an orgasm because you think that Keir has demolished Boris at the despatch box is infantile. And, for Christ's sake, he is so BORING. Man in suit. I desperately want to be wrong, but the party is simply repeating historic failure. In the seventies I used to parrot on about how the country needed "a socialist alternative." I've changed my mind about that, and, though all my instincts are socialist ones, I want to replace socialist" with "genuine." Not Tory-lite, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:35 AM

We're all sick to death of a series of Conservative Governments - whether call themselves "Conservative" or "Labour"
I want a Labour Pary which fights on Labour principles - not another Brown or Blair or Wilson Government
The fact that Labour is back in the hands of the right is not going to get that
If another Labour-wannabe Tory Government is elected the Party is finished, it never gets more simple than that - electing Starmeris a step in that direction
Yesterday the man says we must all back Johnson's leadership over Covid - is that not plain enough for anybody to realise the direction he will take the Party in ?
The first major public action he took is to sell the Party's reputation out in an attempt to win back 'Friends of Israel' who left because Corbyn refused to back that state's ethnic cleansing policy
He was prepared to split the party in order to get those people and the New Labour anti-Corbynites back on board
Is that the type of Party you want to put into power - I ***** don't

Johnson will be replaced anyway - he's a buffoon and a figure of fun, even to the right-wing press
Big business with look for a "hard" leader capably of forcing through the re-opening of Britain, no matter what the risk to people's lives - Johnson has proved himself willing to do that but he lacks the authority - Starmer has publicly backed him
Can't you people see the writing on the wall
The Lablour Party has long needed a leader with the prionciples and the ability to steer Labour into becoming a half-decent, genuine opposition to what has been happening basically since the arrival of Thatcher on the scene - a Tory cap-doffer like Starmer fell at the first fence, got up and fell down at the next one
Sniding at the only decent, principled Party leader is only playing into the Tory's hands, as is attacking those in the Party who believe in the old Pary values
I've had enough of being accused of being an extremist or "a leftie" to last a lifetime without having to put up with it from people I once respected
Let's debate the real issues without the right-wing rhetoric for a change - please
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:00 AM

As I said, I thought knowing exactly what Starmer said was important, so here is the transcript of what he said on the BBC Six o'clock news last night, via iPlayer (opening minute or two):

The key now is confidence. Do the public have confidence in the measures the government have put in place? Do businesses have confidence in the advice that is being given?

Moreover, the tone of voice was very much that he did not think they did have that confidence. People will differ, but to me that is better interpreted as him saying the government plans are inadequate, rather than they are fine and we must all back them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:15 AM

That's not the impression I got - if the people do not have confidence, then why encourage them to back it ?
I spoke to my sister again last night - Liverpool is in utter confusion; on the one hand they are being encouraged to go back to work, on the other Lancashire is being threatened with a similar lock-down to that of Leicestershire - asking people to back that is uter suicidal madness
That's what I heard from Starmer
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM

I have linked to the news article, Jim. Starmer is something like 36 seconds in. As always, I invite people to make their own judgement, not to rely on mine.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:47 AM

Sorry Mac - The BBC is not generous enough to allow us in Ireland to listen to what they have to say - I can't open it
Satrmer said what I heard him say - it seemed clear enough to me
I have no intention of being bogged down in this particular issue - there are far more important ones
Does it not concern you that this leader has joined those in claiming there to be an anti-semitism problem to the extent of sacking a shadow cabinet member for daring to criticise Israel's involvement in training American policemen who are killing blacks ?
He is so determined to do this he has split the Labour Party in orer to appease the extreme right within its ranks
Try addressing that fact - any of you now urging us to support this man
Incidentally, those members who say they don't know if Labour has a serious antisemitism problem appear to be suggesting it might have - there is enough evidence to the contrary for those who care to look for it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:54 AM

Jim, Steve, two straight questions for you both:-

1) Given the Tories’ landslide win in the GE, with an overall majority of 81, and in view of the desertion of large numbers of former Labour voters, do you agree with that piece of irrefutable evidence that Labour under Corbyn was unelectable.

2) What are your strategies for making Labour electable in the future?

No ifs, no buts, no word-twisting, no answering questions with questions - in short, no horse-shit - just straight answers to two straight questions please.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:04 AM

I go back to my earlier point, Jim. I see a focus on Starmer to the exclusion of all the other things happening in UK politics disappointing. At a very rough assessment based on the 50-page size of Mudcat, we have now spent something like 170 posts talking about little else. Meanwhile all the other antics of the Government get ignored. Not good, in my view. And, I would guess, exactly what the Government would like us to do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:24 AM

Yep, DMcG, Jim and Steve are proving to be the best friends these bastard Tories have, aren’t they?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:34 AM

John, this country has four years in which to see the weaknesses of this man. He is not brave enough to take anyone on. He needs to show that he is vehemently anti-populist and will do incredibly unpopular things to make this country a civilised place again. He needs the charisma to make the Murdoch press sit up and think, hello, we'd better back this bloke because he looks like a winner. We need a Blair but with principles. It will be someone as yet untried, but we'll have to keep our eyes skinned for the next few years. Sure, we can get behind the current bloke, vote for him and grasp at the straw that he'll win and be the slightly lesser of two evils. But that won't happen. The Israeli regime and the Board Of Deputies have seen how weak he is and he'll keep on doing the things that he thinks will assuage them. A follower not a leader. If you don't think the public will see through that...

The next election is likely to be between Starmer and Sunak. And you think we have a cat in hell's chance with that... One more heave again, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:50 AM

"Jim and Steve are proving to be the best friends these bastard Tories have, aren’t they?"
No Baccie
Those supporting starmersd swinging teh party to the right and calling their Labour Party comrades "lefties" (as an insult) are doing just that
Starmer had lowered the party to the bumwipe press level by suggesting that it has a serious antisemitism problem - as have those who refusing to condemn him for doing so
Just what Johnson needs now is a weakened Labour Party at each others throats - that what Starmer has given him - on a plate
MAYBE THE GUARDIAN IS TOO "LEFTIE" FOR SOME PEOPLE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:02 AM

Jim, Steve, I asked you two straight, simple questions, with a request for you to refrain from obfuscation. You’ve both sidestepped both questions. Now be honest for once, and answer the questions. Here they are again...

1) Given the Tories’ landslide win in the GE, with an overall majority of 81, and in view of the desertion of large numbers of former Labour voters, do you agree with that piece of irrefutable evidence that Labour under Corbyn was unelectable.

2) What are your strategies for making Labour electable in the future?

No ifs, no buts, no word-twisting, no answering questions with questions - in short, no horse-shit - just straight answers to two straight questions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:17 AM

Perhaps Hank Marvin should be leader of the labour party, the shadows dance is sure to win elections

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:34 AM

I have to wonder whether this discussion is representative of the whole Labour Party.
The Conservatives here step back from the discussion, so the Labour supporters start kicking each other instead.
To quote Abe Lincoln: "A house divided against itself, cannot stand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:37 AM

"You’ve both sidestepped both questions"
I'll be happy to answer any of your questions when you start answering mine Baccie
I made the point of Starmer betraying the Labour Party by accusing a cabinet member of antisemitism and sacking her way, way up on this thread - you have yet to give a straight answer to that
You really can't demand answers and behave like that
Your question was well answered as far as I am concerned - the Labour Party needs a leader that can be trusted - this felleer has shown he can't be
The Labour needs plicies that are distinguishable from those of the Tories - new Labour, who you appear to support (with your accusations of "leftie") has bur credit-card thickness between Labour and the rest of the main parties
Corbyn gave the genuine supportes of Labour policies a reason to hope things would get better =- the leader you are pimping for has destroyed hat hope -
You, Dave and the "lefties" accusers blame the people - saying that's what they want - that't what the Tories and the Populists do
I've shown yo mine, let's have a look at yours
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:46 AM

Hank for leader of the labour party , we could all dance to apache.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:47 AM

So, no answer then, Jim?You haven’t the honesty or the balls to admit that Corbyn’s Labour was unelectable, you haven’t a clue how to make Labour electable.

Why am I not surprised? What is that saying about ‘empty vessels’...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:59 AM

"So, no answer then, Jim?You haven’t the honesty or the balls to admit that Corbyn’s Labour was unelectable, "
Done and Dusted - the Government won the last election on the basis of the chaos caused by Brexit - only the right blame Corbyn - you have chosen choice running mates
Corbyn's policies may be difficult yto put across in the prasent "we hate Corbyn" atmosphere, but I would at least expect so-called members of the Party to support him - nott so, it seems
Now we have a rightie back in charge
The leader of the TUC has now resignbed because of Starmmer's failiure to stand up to Govenment policies
He has warned of the dam=ngerrs of returning to New Labour's "centre ground"
Steve and I maybe "disloyal" to this turd but you people are selling out the only alternative to Johnson's policies - a new broom which will sweep the lot away
Starmer has shown he want's to be part of the old guard in Westminster
You are welcome to him
Now will you answer my questions - rhetorical of course, course you won't
Jim
jIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:01 AM

There is some truth in that, Nigel. Back when I was doing my 'A' levels my school insisted everyone took one in General Studies. I think this was an excellent idea, since it meant people who were very strongly science based like me (my other 'A' levels were Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry) had to study some literature, architecture, and whatnot, whereas the artistically inclined had to learn some science. Amongst other things we also had to learn some politics, both current and historical. I well remember the teacher saying that the great political strength of the Conservatives was that they were so dedicated to winning that internal divisions could largely be put aside during election campaigns, whereas the Labour party could rarely do this: while all the left disliked the Tories they really hated those of the left who were too left wing or not left wing enough for them. A gross simplification of both parties, of course, but a simplification with more than a grain of truth in it.

All that was pre-Thatcher and Euroscepticism but even there the Tory divisions did not often stand in the way of a united front to get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:47 AM

One way ourt I suppoose - to agree with a Tory
Labour has to choose whether it wants to just "win elections" or, by doing so, is going to make a real difference
It had been a chance to bring about significant changes in sociiety over and over and over again and it has failed miserably
There seems little point in voting such a party into office unless it changes its ways - it really is as simple as that
The right purged the pary of left-wing members over and over again, The Young Socialist Groups, The Keep Left crowd - all driven out
Instead we got Callaghan, Blair and Brown
Blair was worst if following Mad Maggie's lead of tying Britain to America via third rate Hollywood actor, Ronnie Reagan - Blair climbed into bed with America's second-worst president, George Dubya, and used Weapons of Mass Destruction as a stimulator
When Corbyn appeared oon the scene, members came flocking back to the party, - this feller will drive the ones away he doesn't actually expel
What kind of party loyalty is that ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM

There will not be an election for some time,unless something unpredictable happens, which often happens , Starmer ties johnson up in knots at PM question time, Johnson does not seem to be handling, covid 19 very well.
Starmer may or may not win the next Election, there is more to winning the next election that winning debates at pm question time.
I think he lacks the appeal to rednacks and some of the people that voted brexit that johnson has.
he may win a proprtion of the centre ground but will that be enough?
now much depends on what happens with the economy.
I think Starmer is just as middle class as Corbyn, but he will lose votes on the left.
We may end up with a labour lib coalition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM

"The UK government said on Saturday it was pausing its daily updates of the coronavirus death toll after ordering a review of how the data is calculated, following concern that numbers may have been exaggerated.

Academics have said the way that Public Health England (PHE), the government agency responsible for managing infectious disease outbreaks, calculates the figures for England means they may look worse than in other countries of the United Kingdom."

I think that sort of thing is important and worth discussing.   On the other hand I suspect some will be more concerned with why
Len McCluskey is retiring a year early (and the same people may well ignore also be uninterested in why so many senior civil servants are leaving early.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 09:46 AM

Not sure of your point there Mac
We were discussing the fact that the new head of the Labour Party's behavior is driving some of Labour's greatest allies away
Changing the subject shows a disinterest rather than a concern for what should really be 'The People's Party'
You have let this right winger's bullying behaviour through on the nod yet you and others were quite outraged when the same thing was happening in the Tory Party
Why will you not discuss this disturbing subject - I wonder (but maybe I know already)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM

John, we have Sunak, a fairly incompetent chancellor of a few weeks who looks young, slim, smart, thrusting, dynamic, businesslike and cheery, who speaks persuasively (though he's never persuaded me of very much) and who has undoubted charisma. And then we have Sir Keir, who looks stodgy and vacillating and who bends in the breeze. That's the next election sorted for you. So what's YOUR answer to that? By the way, I'm staying in the party and, if I have to, I'll fight tooth and nail to get Starmer elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 12:30 PM

I've not had time or energy to read all of today's splurge of posts yet...

So I'll just chip in with..

Are there no youngish charismatic principled streetwise Labour MPs
waiting in the background to take over from Starmer,
as and when required...???

Ideally, a Jewish Labour MP who will stand up to and fight back against
smears and false accusations of antisemitism...

Basically, someone like me;
but younger, more charismatic, more principled, more streetwise, and more Jewish...

I see a fair number of lefty comedians who could tick most of those boxes,
but unfortunately they're not MPs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 01:53 PM

Phew.. I've just finished reading all today's posts...


Jim - who appointed you Grand Inquisitor Judge,
empowered to condemn all those not as over-zealously 'lefty' as thou...!!!???

Get off your high horse, we can see right up the legs of your jockey shorts...

The tories are lapping up your divisive chest-thumping with glee and gratitude...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:01 PM

btw - it was a toss up between "tub thumping" and "chest thumping"..

But I like Jim enough to see him as an elder silver-back gorilla,
staunchly defiant in the face of inevitable extinction...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:13 PM

”John, we have Sunak, a fairly incompetent chancellor of a few weeks who looks young, slim, smart, thrusting, dynamic, businesslike and cheery, who speaks persuasively (though he's never persuaded me of very much) and who has undoubted charisma. And then we have Sir Keir, who looks stodgy and vacillating and who bends in the breeze. That's the next election sorted for you. So what's YOUR answer to that?

I completely agree with you about Sunak, Steve. And I don’t have an answer to your question, other than that I don’t believe Rebecca Long-Bailey would be able to deal with Sunak any more than Starmer.

I’m not arguing about who, of the leadership-election candidates, would have made the best leader - there’s nothing to argue about, the Party membership made its democratic choice and it was Starmer. End of.

What I’ve been trying to persuade you and Jim (who never listens to anything anyone says if it doesn’t align with his views) about is that the leader has been elected by a substantial majority in a democratic process. As someone above has pointed out, part of the reason for the Tories’ success in GEs is that, whatever their internal divisions, they present a United from as far as the voting public are concerned at election time. It’s incumbent on Labour voters in general, and Party members in particular, to show loyalty and support for the Party, and that means not undermining and backstabbing the democratically elected leader. It’s called Loyalty, and it counts for a great deal.

By the way, I'm staying in the party and, if I have to, I'll fight tooth and nail to get Starmer elected.

And so you should.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:40 PM

"But I like Jim enough to see him as an elder silver-back gorilla,"
I'd hate you be at the butt of your insults if you didn't like me
I think it's a fairly well established tradition on this orum that, whenever someone finds themselves in a corner - go for the throat
It doesn't achieve anything but it helps those at a loss feel better

I thinkk Baccie might be the first to be persuaded that there is not a serious problem with antisemitism - he says he "doesn't know if there is"

When a party has to pick it's representatives on racial or cultral grounds it really is on the skids
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM

Jim - skids or not..

As pure hearted as we aspire to be, none of us are lucky enough to get through life
without skid-marks..

I'm up for fighting fire with fire;
and if it takes a proper lefty Jewish labour MP as party leader,
willing to risk fighting the pro Israeli smear campaigners...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:13 PM

”I think it's a fairly well established tradition on this orum that, whenever someone finds themselves in a corner - go for the throat
It doesn't achieve anything but it helps those at a loss feel better“

Followed immediately by this piece of ad-hominem trolling nonsense

I thinkk Baccie might be the first to be persuaded that there is not a serious problem with antisemitism - he says he "doesn't know if there is"

Ever heard of the word ‘hypocrisy’, Jim? Google it.

For the record, here’s what I actually said -

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

And, for the record, I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic’ - I’ve deliberately avoided making any judgment about that.”

Hypocrisy and word-twisting. Shameful behaviour Jim. I used to hold you in such high regard too....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 07:51 PM

You said you had no idea Baccie
Name calling isn'r really a subsitiuyte for argument - you really shoul know that
You all have my arguments- where are yours ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 01:46 AM

I think that some of the people who voted for corbyn might now swtch to voting green.
if people want to have a mildly socially democratic party that is marginally to the left of the conservative party that is not prepared to renationalise the railways and tne utility companies, the labour party might as well merge with the liberals. at least opposition to the conservatives would not be split two ways,
the other reason the tories won the last election was the input of UKIP and the pro leave europe voters, not standing in many constituencies and all voting conservative

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 02:56 AM

"I used to hold you in such high regard too...."
Ditto until such things as - "I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic’
Surely the sacking of a senior minister should be of interest and concern of all members and supporters
Politicians get away with what they do because too many people "don't give a flying fuck" about too many important things
Corbyn looked as if he might change that - back to Blair's halcyon days, it would appear
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:11 AM

a) Tomorrow is the report stage and third reading of the trade bill. It will set the ground rules for what food can be imported, whether this nonsensical dual tariff system will be used, whether selling off parts of the NHS is off the table, and much else.

What it says will affect the future of every person and every business in the country.

The Tories, on page 57 of their manifesto, committed to ensuring the standards would not be reduced. This has been one of the few opportunities for those of us on the left to influence any Tory MP we have by getting them to stand by the commitment they were elected upon.

b) British Airways wants sack most of its staff and re-employ them on poorer contracts. Starmer opened PMQs by calling this out. As expected, the government is content with it and not surprisingly Centrica now wants to do the same, and we can expect a lot of other mass employers to follow.



These are the kind of things I want to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:20 AM

”You all have my arguments- where are yours ?“

You’ve had them, over and over again, but you’re not listening. You’re going to have to find another victim, I’m finished with you. From now on you can rant, preach, misquote, set your traps, and have the last word, to your heart’s content - I won’t be listening either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:25 AM

Coronavirus data to be made available to councils

About time too! I hope every else here has been lobbying for that as well as best they can under the current restrictions. All the councils have been saying they have been working with the proverbial one hand tied behind their back without postcode level data, and obviously they have. There is no way of having a local lock down unless you know the locality, for example: your only alternative is an unnecessarily wide one enclosing the outbreak but much else.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM

"You’ve had them"
You know that's not true - you actually said I wasn't worth respond to
Try again
Why should we support a leader who sacks a senior minister for an "antisemitic tweet" everybody here has said isn't antisemitic - give me a reason o point me to an answer
That action has split the Labor Party and looks like losing the support of The Trades Unions - Labour's main contact with working people in Britain - the founders of the Labour Party and it's mainstay
Not only this, of course; in doing what he did, Starmer has implicated Labour in the antisemitism accusations by mor or less admitting that there is one
In what way is Starmer's behaviour in refusing to sack Steve Reed (for exactly the same behaviour as Long-Bailey) any different from Johnson's refusing to sack Cummings ?
We've slagged off Johnson yet you want us to support Starmer
Your starter for ten - without the childish name-calling, if possible

PFR somewhat childishly compered mt to a "silverback" - I'd be extremely flattered to be put up beside that magnificent creature if I took anything he said seriously any more
One of the great characteristics of that beautiful animal is it's dignity, calmness and its preparedness to fight to defend what it considers important
A little thin on the ground here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM

I am inclined to agree with Jim. Iknow people on the left in the uk who supported Corbyn, but now have decided to support the green party rather than starmer ,if this leads to a coalition and environmental issuesare implemented they feel this is more worth while.Dmc g , thanks for that info

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 08:45 AM

Jim - I said what I meant.

Get off your high horse.
You are in no sound position to call anyone childish,
with your persistent immature pompous petulant behavior..

You are not as morally superior as you believe yourself to be.
You are in fact now becoming a useful idiot for the far right..
The kind of boorish extreme left zealot stereotype
who drove away vast numbers of working class ex Labour voters
towards the open welcoming arms of far right..

Not towards the Greens, but voting instead for populist boris and ukip...

I withdraw my noble Gorilla comparison..

You are now acting more like a chattering zoo monkey,
playing with itself for attention
in front of an unimpressed audience...

Only you can pull yourself up out of this self indulgent hole
you are obsessively digging for yourself...

You are hell bent on turning mates into enemies...!!!???



Btw.. I did warn that banning right wing members,
might probably lead to habitually argumentative mudcatters turning their invective
inwards onto mates on their own side...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM

I find myself agreeing with Jim as well. My view is that it is 100% certain that Starmer would lose the next election in any case. I'll fight for him, of course, as a party member, but to me, even though I'll have to pretend it isn't, it's a lost cause. So that doubly means that I shouldn't be ditching my principles in order to pander to the Tory press and right-wing voters (and the pro-Israel lobby). If I were to do that I'd have nothing left after the next election.

"Btw.. I did warn that banning right wing members,
might probably lead to habitually argumentative mudcatters turning their invective
inwards onto mates on their own side..."

Well you can say that but you can't demonstrate cause and effect there. Perhaps you're saying it because you want to be right. I haven't particularly noticed any change, except for the far calmer atmosphere in these threads now than you-know-who has been banished.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:16 AM

PFR - There are some people who like to argue and entertain others with their arguments. There are some who like to argue and antagonize others. Then there are those who just argue for the sake of it. I suspect it you were to lock Jim in a room on his own he would argue with himself and still deny anything he disagreed with :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM

If either hof you had a case you would answer the simple questions I have put forward.
They boil down to this - the new leader of the Labour Party has started his career by splitting the party with the unprecedented and totally unjust action of sacking his running mate for supporting something that is true and in doing so has split the party, is likely to drive out all those who joined when Corbyn came to office and stands to break the century old links with the Trades Union movement
I believe that such a ruthlessly dishonest individual is not fit to be leader of The Labour Party and should be replaced
That is how things stand at present, in my opinion - all the personal abuse in the world is not going to change my mind - in fact your behaviour convinces me of its accuracy
Grow up - the pair of you - you never used to behave like this

The Labour Party has been split and stands to be split more - you pair have chosen the saide that has destroyed it as an effective opposition and are arguing to return for blind obedianece to a pseudo Tory leadership again - we all know what that has done to it in the past
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:05 AM

”Grow up - the pair of you - you never used to behave like this“

Sadly though, Jim, you have always behaved the way you’re doing now - bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative. And, since your sparring-partner, Iains, has been suspended, you’ve turned your nasty, vicious, vitriolic attention to those who have tried to be your friends.

I’ve never been suspended from the forum for bad behaviour nor, as far as I know, has pfr. Can you truthfully say the same?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 04:45 AM

Mor unnecessary insulting and still not a single attempt to answer one of my questions
If I "have always been like this" can I remind you we got on quite well until I began to disagree with what you say - now, all of a sudden, I have become "bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative."
What's taken you so long to notice that

You obviously are not going to attempt to respond to these questions which leaves me to the conclusion you haven't got any answers - if you had said so in the first place this unpleasantness need not have occurred
I have insulted no-one here, nor have I for a long time
You really need to look at your own behaviour before you criticise that of others

Let's see if anybody else cares to comment on what I have said
Somewhat sadly
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:03 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM
If either of you had a case you would answer the simple questions I have put forward.
They boil down to this - the new leader of the Labour Party has started his career by splitting the party with the unprecedented and totally unjust action of sacking his running mate for supporting something that is true and in doing so has split the party,

As I see it (NOT being a member of the Labour Party), Sir Keir Starmer has not split the Labour Party, it was already split, and has been for some time (at least since Blair).

There's that question answered, so you don't need to keep hammering on at it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:29 AM

fair enough, nigel. we shouldn't forget that jeremy corbyn - who i supported- pissed me off when he sacked chris williamson, clive lewis and ken livingstone. he did have principles and honesty but did not have the courage to take on the odious john mann, margaret hodge and others.

and while we are at it, i've long thought that england is in a mess because the tories dealt with farage by adopting rather than challenging his xenophobia and racism. it took a while to dawn on me that that has also been the unspoken tactic of the labour party in recent years. they didn't want to upset gammons and white working class men in northern towns. see where that got us......

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:44 AM

The Labour Paaary was undergoing a well-needed (in my opinion) change under Corbyn - basically, a return to core values - and it was working
All of those groups who had been ousted by those wishing to turn the Party into something else returned in their drove
That is not really a 'split' - it's a way of healing old wounds
All parties are 'split' at present - Lib Dems have their members who yearn for the old days - your own Party is divided into those who support the traditionalists such as those who were surgically removed in the Brexit butchery
The Labour Party divisions pre-date Blair by decades - he was the catalyst
Far too many of those at the top were heavy-handed in removing the opposition to their leadership - this new feller is something else, and he comes at a bad time for the country
It is not time to appease the right anywhere - they are a dangerous lot - whatever shade they come in
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:56 AM

”If I "have always been like this" can I remind you we got on quite well until I began to disagree with what you say - now, all of a sudden, I have become "bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative."
What's taken you so long to notice that?”

I made allowances for you Jim, I thought “It’s just Jim being Jim”. But you’ve decided to dump your shitty attitude on your friends for no other reason that they don’t see the world through your rabid Left-Wing lens, and you don’t like it when they take umbrage at being lectured, having traps set for them, and non-stop demands being made that they ‘explain themselves‘ as though you’re some sort of Chief Inquisitor.

You’ve turned on your friends Jim. Absolutely shameful, disgusting treachery, and completely unforgivable.

Now fuck off, this is the last time I will respond to any of your horse-shit. Find someone else to victimise for nothing more than having the kind of sensible, balanced view that you clearly despise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:31 AM

Nigel
That reference to 'the right' was not meant to be a pop at you by the way
I've always disageed with you, but that's a long way from associating you with the 'Johnson/Trump' mentalist that is now dominating your party
I've always regarded you as s Tory idealist rather that an advocate of the woest aspects of Toryism - feel happy yo make me wrong
After the last but one French election, Marine LePen called for a consolidation of world-wide right wing forces - recently there have been signs that this is beginning to happen - under Trump
Up to las week Britain was determined to go ahead with the Huawei deal, no matter what Trump thought - now he puts his foot down and the deal is gone
Whatever the rights and wrongs of China, it has not changed - Trump is now calling the shots on Britain's economey

I read this morning that Israel's in intention to annex the Occupied Territories has run into a snag - Netanyahu is awaiting the go-ahead from Trump
This is dangerous concerted extreme right politicking
Starmer has made it clear that he sacked his minister to appease 'The Friends of Israel' within the Labour Party - this involving the Party in the new International consolidation
Dangerous times indeed

Sorry Baccie - I've had enough of you and your mindless personal abuse - go find another victim
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:39 AM

corbyn made it clear that he sacked mps in the labour party to appease the friends of israel and the right wing press.....same party same crap. except maybe keir starmer is doing the same dirty work but in a media savvy way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:13 AM

Up to last week Britain was determined to go ahead with the Huawei deal, no matter what Trump thought - now he puts his foot down and the deal is gone.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of China, it has not changed - Trump is now calling the shots on Britain's economy

Up to last week some were determined to go ahead. There were already calls from within the Conservative Party to re-think the decision. The decision to go ahead with Huawei was taken before China decided that Britain no longer had any say/responsibility with regard to Hong Kong. I believe that it is the situation in Hong Kong/China (including with the Uighurs) that has caused a pause, and a re-think, not anything Trump has done/said.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

Could someone please remind me just how many Labour Party cabinet members resigned or were sacked by Corbyn when he first became leader.

Just to see a balance about "splitting the party" you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:35 AM

How many of those were unfairly dismissed for telling the truth Rag
The party was already split and as has been pointed out by Nigel, has been ofor a long ime
What Corbyn tried to do was not to put his own twist on the Party but to re-introduce the reasons the Party had been created in the first place
The overall effect was to inctrease the membership of the Party
Perhaps you'd care to point out any unfair or self-serving dismissals that took place
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:51 AM

I would care to point nothing out to you at all. You don't listen.

In the past few weeks you have not only pissed me off completely, you have done to same to DtG and now Backwoodsman and Punkfolkrocker.

You are rapidly running out of people who have supported you in the past and your too fucking arrogant to realise it.

Very soon you will be completely on your own. A pariah.

Before you reply with your usual invective take some time to consider what I have written.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:07 AM

ken livingstone.....chris williamson.....clive lewis? there may be more. i don't think you are listening jim. it would be a real shame for us to go on with this 'i'm done with you.....i'm ignoring you....' nonsense. we have been here before and it's really tedious and depressing. all of us in the Judean people's front, people's front of judea and all other previously stomped out mini-groups of splitters need to get a grip and to try to forge some solidarity to fight the dangers we face.

and don't give me this keir starmer is just the same as boris johnson stuff. you know it ain't so...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:08 AM

i can only think of one person who would really be enjoying this thread.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:28 AM

”all of us in the Judean people's front, people's front of judea and all other previously stomped out mini-groups of splitters need to get a grip and to try to forge some solidarity to fight the dangers we face.”

Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along, and getting my balls kicked for saying it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:56 AM

The Labour Paaary was undergoing a well-needed (in my opinion) change under Corbyn - basically, a return to core values - and it was working

You consider losing a general election by the biggest margin in decades working? As countless people have pointed out, to enable the changes that Corbyn was proposing the Labour party needs to be in power. It isn't. As much as I like the guy, what he stood for and what he proposed I have to admit that the Corbyn experiment has failed. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM

" i don't think you are listening jim."
Listening to what exactly
Are you saying Starmer was justified in sacking his minister or are you one of those who refuses to answer ?
You may ignore me, but the facts will remain - answered or unanswered
Labour has floundered and blundered through Parliamentary Politics for as long as I have been interested
Harold Wilson was the first leader I experienced - he was bad enough but he was a revolutionary compared to what was to follow
Left politics hasn't been a part of Labour thinking since the post-war Government when it rebuilt Britain
Abandoning principles has proved an utter disaster - they became as untrustworthy as the Tories
How is Starmer any different ?
He may be of a different character than Johnson, butt the end result will be the same - a growing disollusionment with party politics
There - another question which will not be answered - more to come

By the way
Livingstone quite - he wasn't expelled
CHIIS WILLIAMSON
Clive Lewis Pulled out of the leadership race
None of these were expelled by a leader of the party as Starmer has done
I think it's somebody else who isn't listening
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

dave ,back wood raggy
you know that a major part of th reason for the conservatives victory was a pact they had with brexiteers.
I am sure that if starmer had been in charge he would not have won either.
i think the best that can be hoped for is a labour lib coalition because Starmer does not appeal to working class bluecollar voters and left wingers may vote for the green party

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

That should have read "sacked from office" of course - nobody has been exxpelled yet, but if Starmer gate his way, we will witness all those who joined the Party when Corbyn became leader being accused of "infiltration" as has happened under previous Labour leaderships when Socialism was mentioned too loudly
INTERESTING ARTICAL HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:44 AM

I think not, Dick. It was not UKIP voters that swung to Tory that won it but the loss of the heartland Labour vote. Even if the 'pact with Brexiteers' was a major factor, any politician worth his salt could have capitalised on the disarray caused by Brexit. Corbyn didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:56 AM

COINCIDENCE MAYBE NIGEL
China's civil rights have been an issue since at least Tienanmen Square
A Britain who can send a prime minister to the Arab states while a jornalist is being administered 1000 lashes for speaking his mind doesn't give a toss for civil rights if it gets in the way of its trade and commercial interests
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:58 AM

i have already said i thought it was wrong to sack (or whatever) rebecca long-bailey. for what it's worth i thought it was wrong to expel alistair campbell for voting in greeen in the euro elections. many people voted (inc. me) voted green but no-one else was expelled from the party - so just a gesture, really to sexpel AC.

i've always been on the left of the party (during the times when i havn't yet stomped off in a huff (3 times at last count)) and have happily supported green policies, anti-nuclear (a big deal in cumbria) and scottish independence - while criticising the scottish labour party. no-one has ever given me a hard time about my beliefs.

the current state of the government is what keeps me active in the labour party - it is still the only hope for the decent people in england

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

”The current state of the government is what keeps me active in the labour party - it is still the only hope for the decent people in england“

Precisely what I’ve been saying and getting my balls kicked for, Pete. We need a Labour government, and Labour members, supporters, and voters should be getting behind the party and its democratically-elected Leader, and pulling together to bring it about.

And what anyone who doesn’t even live in the U.K. thinks about it is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

"i have already said i thought it was wrong to sack (or whatever) rebecca long-bailey. "
If you are supporting the man who sacked her your opposing her sacking is little more than lip-service
The implications of her being sacked for sayiny what she said reach far beyond the individuals concerned - it is a classic example of someone being disciplined "as a warning to others" and it an action to appease the extreme right within the party
In doing this Starmer has gone with the flow and said that criticising Israel is "antisemitic", whic is, by definition, and antisemitic suggestion
Labour is now part of that
Can I make my own position clear - I am philosophically of the left - Scocailism is a dream for the future and it's certainly not going to happen in my lifetime
I believe in following the path that Labour was first set up for - to better the general lot of working people in Britain - is achievable in the short term
I was a trades unionist and fould for better conditions at work - sometimes we won
I went on Peace marches, anti-Aparhied and anti racist demonstrations, I supported the Miners... none of this was calling for revolution - it was all to do with what was happening at the rime
That was all short term and essential stuff, I believed
Nothing has changed in that except there are more nearer to home things to fight for
None of this has anything to do with the long-term hopes that right-wingers like PFR pour such contempt on - they are bread and butter issues
THis pandemic is having an odd effect on society - a few months ago the killing of a black man took on world-wide proportions and escalated into demands that our nations face up to their histories - slavery, racism, the exploitation of weaker peoples
That spirit of rebellion is set fair to accelerate as the situation created by Covid begins to bite
Ordinary people are going to be asked to bear the brunt of this mess and that is going to come from Westminster - if you believe Starmer is going to offer any opposition to it you are biger dreamers than you accuse me of being
Anybody who compromises with a State as extreme as Israal (as Starmer has) is going to have no trouble with compromising with the Tories
Watch this space
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:40 AM

"And what anyone who doesn’t even live in the U.K. thinks about it is irrelevant."
Oh dear - now thae was a nesty bout of deja-vous
I really did think we'd seen the back of that lever of snide
Must go and find my birth certificate in case someone asks me to produce it
Down, down, down we go.....
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM

Right wingers like PFR? I'm sure he will be thrilled to be called this by a right whinger like you, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM

You can shove your birth certificate where the sun don’t shine Jim - you have no vote in this country. Therefore your opinions are irrelevant, they carry no weight whatsoever, no matter how often and how hard you try to ram them down other people’s throats.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 01:05 PM

" you have no vote in this country."
Rule Britannia eh ?
Musyt be careful none of us criticise Trump or Assad then

Go look what he said about Socialism Dave - I don't exopect that contempt from left wingers I'm afraid
It seems you have finally resiorted to childish name-valling - a lot of slipping masks
Jay-sus !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:04 PM

No Jim, people who have good intentions and a deep longing to see the back of this dreadful Tory government are getting sick and tired of you dominating every thread you enter with your ranting, your high-handed pontificating, your talking down to them, your ripping into them because they see the world through different eyes to yours, accusing them of saying things they haven’t said, twisting the things they have said, demanding they answer any and every question you choose to fire off at them, and lots more.

For fuck’s sake, give your daft head a wobble and take a bloody good look at your appalling behaviour. You’re a bloody embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:25 PM

i joined the labour party when Corbyn became prime minster.I have since left, i know of friends of mine who have also left they intend to vote green.
it is pure speculation as to whether Starmer will win an election , my guess[ and this too is speculation] is that the best that will be achieved is lab lib coalition, that there will be not one party that has an overall majority, and then the deal will be proprtional representation for the liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

You appointed yourels a spoleseman for all as well as demanding a passport on entry now ?
You have personally abused and isulted since I first challenged you - I have not
That you are uncomfortable at being put on the spot seems to go with the territory
The solution is simple - destroy my arguments with your erudition and superiority - they are simple enough
Why should we trust a Labour leader who has sold his party out to supporters of an extremist foreign power ?
I won't ask you too prove your accusations with any sort of examples - I've long ceased to expect that sort of thing from some people
NICE BIT OF SUMMING UP HERE
The author of the article is a long term Labour Pary memmber who has recently resigned in disgust at the appeasement to 'The Friends of Israel'
As somebody has already saidm "he won't be the last"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

Jim - you have worked yourself up again into a state of blustering mania..

You are wasting all our time...


"long-term hopes that right-wingers like PFR pour such contempt on"

You can shove that nonsense up where it will bring you most discomfort.. Comrade Jimski...

If you eventually come back down to earth
from this mega tantrum,
hopefully you might realise how much you have pissed off your mudcat mates
with such rampant silliness...

For the moment, at least try to stop spamming this thread
with your distracting ridiculous repeated misunderstandings and condemnations...

We have far more important concerns to contend with,
which require intelligent mature debate..

You are invited to join in when you calm back down...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM

No he hasn't. My time isn't wasted. Who invites WHO back?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM

Donny - is America so fed up with you, they sent you over here
to act like an irritating pillock...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:31 PM

Donny - I personally invite Jim to continue in this thread
out of friendliness, [which he is straining] when he's come to his senses..
I believe other British mudcatters feel similarly, and would do likewise..

I'm also fairly certain most of us do not welcome your gratuitous shit stirring interfering intrusions;
and I'm sure some would not be as polite in asking you to keep out of our British thread...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:35 PM

Jim's analysis of politics in this country is thorough and pretty sound. I can find very little to disagree with. I don't go along with his approach to the rest of you and it would be good if he took a small step back.

However, you are now rounding on him like a pack of bullies, in a way you don't round on me when I make exactly the same points about Starmer that he does, and, because you know how he'll respond and are getting precisely what you expect, you are making the situation a damn sight worse. I'm amazed at your capacity for brutal insult, John, even though I know how to rile you about those noisy and useless shitting machines known as "dogs." You have no right to tell him that his opinion about this country's politics don't count just because he doesn't live here any more. We live in a big global village these days and what we do here impacts people all over the world. I've expressed opinions here about Dubya, Xi, Netanyahu, Trump, various popes and many another, I've been vehemently disagreed with, insulted and even threatened with banishment but I've never been told that I'm disqualified from commenting because "I don't live there." That's a resort way too far. If Jim needs to take a small step back, some of us need to take a bloody big step back. You didn't even treat Iains, a far-right plant, as badly as this. Nothing like. Jim is on our side, the main difference being that he isn't up for compromise, and he puts up a valiant argument as to why we shouldn't, most of the time. He's setting his principle against your expediency, you don't like it, but that's how he is. And there is validity in that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM

Steve - Jim is preaching to the converted about starmer...

But he's vainly banging on as if he is the only lefty amongst us with that level of enlightenment..

Then he insults us by saying we are starmer fanboys and efffin right wingers..

I occasionally tell Jim how much I admire his analysis, historical recall and perspective....
How I consider him something of an online mentor..

But he is not beyond a good telling off by his mudcat mates,
when he needs it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 04:08 PM

”I'm amazed at your capacity for brutal insult, John,“

You should consider first the brutal abuse and provocation I’ve had to tolerate for no other reason than my moderate views on the current situation the Labour Party finds itself in.

I’m ‘amazed’ too. Amazed that you defend the indefensible. Not only that, you include an attempt to provoke me further as part of that defence. How low can you go?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:28 PM

...Jim - persist in stubbornly getting the wrong end of the stick
as much as you like..

All we can do as mudcat mates is try to persuade you to stop acting up so visibly,
before Mods notice and wade in to take it out of all our hands...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:31 PM

Stop the tongue-lashing, accusing, lecturing, pontificating, talking down to those who don’t see the world the way you do, twisting their words, claiming they’ve said things they haven’t, demanding they subject themselves to The Carrollish Inquisition then.

It’s in your own hands..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:47 PM

Sorry, John, but you're the past master when it comes to the tongue-lashing and accusing. Just read your own posts over the last few days, why don't you. We've had your vile and intemperate language, personal sweary insults and slurs apropos of his domicile. It's in your gift, and pfr's, to step back, cut Jim some slack and even just have a smile at it all. If the mods wade in, shut stuff down and get all hoity-toity with us, it'll be down to you and pfr just as much as to Jim, if not more, if they happen to base their actions on the last few days' posts. Just drop it, all of ye. The kick-off point is that some here are happy with Starmer and think he's the only way forward for us to have any chance of a future victory and that others, me and Jim it seems, maybe even Dick, think that he's a born panderer who is ditching left-wing principles in an utterly doomed attempt to put Labour back on the map. Neither side knows the outcome of the next few years, but these are valid points for argument. Now bloody man up and drop the contumely, the lot of ye! Otherwise I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 08:51 PM

I had the right thread. It shows while the US did nearly everything wrong, the UK and NHS has done rather well afterall.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:14 PM

"The kick-off point is that some here are happy with Starmer and think he's the only way forward for us to have any chance of a future victory "

Who's that then...???
I don't recall anyone here saying they think much of Starmer's character,
or are impressed by Labour voting him as leader...

At best someone's only said he's a good performer at PM's question sessions..
That's as much as I remember anyone having anything positive to say about him...

Jim has just completely gone of on one,
based only on his own distorted misconstrued imaginings of what he thinks any of said..

Have you actually been properly reading this thread,
before you step in here
like a dozy chummy village bobby lecturing naughty lads on their wayward behaviour...

I've cut Jim more slack, out of respect,
than I ever would for anyone else..
But there is a limit to our patience with how he is currently behaving at us...

Are you really trying to help,
or throw petrol on the fire like donuel is...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:54 PM

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going on when so many of you are defending your freedom of rant after having exiled Iaians when the main perceptible difference is what side of the aisle you are presenting.

I know he is somehow 'different' but in the postings in this thread all he did was irritate you the same way you were irritating him and each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 PM

Robo - so basically all Jim is achieving
is making a case for iains to be readmitted...

Steve'll love that twist...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 01:28 AM

Now this is more like it..

Sleazy tory MP sex scandal...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53472289

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 01:51 AM

A major political event happened last night we need to be aware of: Parliament voted to have no power to review trade bills.

What that means is that if Liz Truss decides to agree a deal with the US that lowers food standards or gives the US the right to buy some NHS services, Parliament cannot intervene. They also voted down protections for the NHS, and against the UK being sued by multinational companies.

And because Parliament cannot intervene, neither can we. No mass campaigns, marches of millions, letters to MPs can have any effect, because the MPs have no power on the matter.

Our influence has just been voted away.

Personally, I find this more important than the last few days' discussion on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM

DMCG. spot on

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:49 AM

Of course Bills passed in parliament can be reversed but if the NHS has already been sued or if trade deals are already in place it becomes so much more difficult. We can but hope that El Presidento Johnson is ousted from within before he becomes impossible to remove.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 03:28 AM

I have PMd you Steve but I would like to address a point you make publicly. You have never made the same points that Jim has. At least not in the same way. You have never asked for answers that have already been given because you do read and understand what other people say. You keep your points succinct and make them just once. And, as far as I know, you have never made a thread about yourself. I don't wish to make you sound a paragon of virtue. None of us are. But look for the common factor in all the most vitriolic threads.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 03:30 AM

"I've cut Jim more slack, out of respect,"
I think I'll cut the bullies a bit of slack and leave you to it fo a while
This has become far too childishly bullying to bother with - I saw too much of that in the schoolyard

"Comrade Jimski..."
Good to see the right coming out of their closets though
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM

maybe even Dick, think that he's a born panderer who is ditching left-wing principles in an utterly doomed attempt to put Labour back on the map. Neither side knows the outcome of the next few years, but these are valid points for argument. quote steve shaw
yes that is approximately my thoughts.
starmer may win discussion points at pm question time,.
i am not convinced he is any more electable than Corbyn, i think he lacks appeal to blue collar workers, i think he might gain a few centre votes, but he will lose left votes, to the green party, and i am guessing that the most likely outcome is a lib lab coalition which might involve a deal on proportional representation.
I am convinced that if he [starmer] had been leader at the last election the result would still have been a conservative victory as a result of the electoral pact between the conservatives and brexit parties
how would starmer have won pro brexit labour votes that corbyn failed to win? , he is just as middle class and lacks any working class appeal he comes across as a typical barrister, whereas johnson and farage and trump have something that appeals to blue collar workers. I THINK THE LAST THREE ARE DESPICABLE. BUT I AM NOT A BLUE COLLAR PRO BREXIT LABOUR VOTER

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I think that Dick, Jim and I (hardly a triumvirate of boundless virtue) all see that Keir Starmer is simply not the man. That's a respectable view, and a handful of dissenters from the expedient on Mudcat are hardly going to doom the party. And I don't see how asking everyone to cool it and step back is pouring petrol on the flames. Let's see how we get on in the next few days. And let's not forget that we're all getting on a bit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:44 AM

At least some information has come out of the latest discussion.
Steve Shaw appears to consider one of the moderators is his personal attack dog: Now bloody man up and drop the contumely, the lot of ye! Otherwise I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

At least we'll know who's been 'running to teacher'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:49 AM

For your info, Nigel, I haven't communicated with anyone wearing a mod hat for a long time. In fact, I don't even know whether Barb'ry is still around! So do try not to be silly...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM

While I may agree, Steve, it is blatantly obvious that Corbyn was not the man either. What we need is a left-ish Blair or, better still, a Becky L-B :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:59 AM

Just checked back... I had a bit of quiet banter with Maggie around 17 June, less of a one with her around 5 May and a brief and cheery exchange with Barb'ry in early April. That's it. In none of those cases did I try to hire them as my attack dog. Ask 'em! What is it with you at times, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:09 AM

The media and the pro-Israel advocates in this country and overseas made sure he wasn't the man, Dave, especially after he'd done surprisingly well in 2017. OK, he wasn't the man, but let's at least recognise why he wasn't. A massive factor is that he wasn't trusted as a remainer whereas Bozo couldn't have made HIS stance clearer. But give me an unspun man of principle over this bloody clown any day!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:38 AM

Jim - stop this petulant insulting nonsense accusing me of being right wing...

You are being far too petty, deliberately twisting any words I say,
to fit your silly notion you are a victim of bullying..

You know you are not, so drop the play acting..
Most of us regulars here will not fall for it..

We've seen this all too often before when you work yourself up into this self indulgent mood..

Steve - you are not helping by picking sides,
which you seem to be determining the members of..

Pro Starmer v Anti Starmer..

As far as I can see, we all feel let down Labour voted for him...!!!

..and if he's the best the party could come up with...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM

..and labour are unlikely to win any elections
unless they make a self disciplined show of party unity to the public,
and fight back just as dirty as the tories when the gloves are off...

Working class voters, tend to respect plain talking [even sweary] blokes and blokettes,
to smarmy sanctimonious puritans in suits..

The far right knows this, and that's why they are gaining so much support...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 06:06 AM

I am trying to help by trying to persuade you to take a chill pill! Who has what stance tends to get lost in these pointless battles...

Points made (as far as I can see it) so far, at least by me:

Starmer is a man in suit.

Starmer is a middle-of-the-raid vacillator, long-proven (e.g. by his brexit stance, or lack thereof).

Starmer sacked RLB which he shouldn't have done, thereby shedding his principles and pandering to the vicious forces of the liars who accuse Labour of antisemitism. A follower, not a leader. A poodle, not a lion among men (and women). Those liars will be forever on his tail now. A fatal blunder has been committed.

He lacks charisma, a fatal flaw unlikely to be fixed.

In the next election he will likely be up against Sunak, a young, dynamic-looking, cheery chap who has got charisma by the bucket load.

Therefore we are doomed, which would make it doubly stupid for us to ditch OUR principles in the deluded cause of electoral expediency. It won't and can't work. Sitting here for the next four years and letting this just wash over us won't do. The election knocked the stuffing out of us. There's a fight to be fought, and how we do that is what we should be squabbling about...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 07:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:59 AM
Just checked back... I had a bit of quiet banter with Maggie around 17 June, less of a one with her around 5 May and a brief and cheery exchange with Barb'ry in early April. That's it.

So, April, May & June. Not quite what I would have expected from the statement: For your info, Nigel, I haven't communicated with anyone wearing a mod hat for a long time.

As for: In none of those cases did I try to hire them as my attack dog. Ask 'em! What is it with you at times, Nigel?
What is it with me? It was you who had just said: I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

Maybe you're getting older, and forgetting exactly what you have said & might regret.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 07:44 AM

Too literal by far, Nigel. I should think that anyone reading what I said Barb'ry-wise would see it as an attempt to calm things down in jocular fashion. Anyway, if Barb'ry sees it differently I'm sure she'll be along presently to give me a rocket. So thanks for taking the steam out the political debate by acting daft, Nigel. You do have your uses.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 12:39 PM

Labour must relearn how to talk with working class ex supporters..

For too long now, Labour has been dominated by middle class academics and career politicians..

The mass of ex voters who flocked to ukip and then boris,
were sick of being lectured, patronised, scolded,
talked down to by haughty Labour ideologues...

I personally have experience interactions with academic socialists,
who were snootily disdainful and afraid of ordinary rough and tough
working class folks..

Labour needs to address people like my council estate family,
in a tone of welcoming common vernacular,
not the sanctimonious scornful dismissive way some high profile Labour MPs
have been doing in recent years...

That does not mean giving into and adopting populist nationalism and far right hatreds,
but engaging working class folk in positive persuasive dialogue
on their own terms,
not the terms of middle class snobs and ideological zealots...

Labour must reach back to it's working class roots...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:35 PM

"I personally have experience interactions with academic socialists,
who were snootily disdainful and afraid of ordinary rough and tough
working class folks.."

I'd better be more specific, in case anyone here takes it the wrong way..

Those were my experiences in the real world,
outside, well away from mudcat...

Classic worst example;
was an uptight middle class workers revolutionary party / militant feminist college lecturer,
who I saw sitting at the back of a bus to Bristol Poly..

She was crammed very uncomfortably amongst young Bristolian estate lads,
and the look on her face was a mix of contempt, disgust, and terror...

That still symbolically sums it up for me,
Socialists who despise the working class...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:32 PM

i son't want much to do with workington anymore

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 02:52 AM

PFR
No intention in getting involved in this thread while somewhat disturbing abuse is the only response to criticisms of the Labour leader
If you think a worried young woman sitting on a bus surrounded by a crowd of estate lads has anything to do with her being a socialist thinker, I suggest you might get out more
I lived on one of the roughest overspill estates in Britain - Kirkby; for several years bus drivers refused to drive ot there after nine o clock at night because of the behaviour of the estate lads
I would rather try to hitch home up the East Lancs coming home from the pictures rather than risk the twenty minutes bus journey and I was working on the docks - that a young woman travelling alone might be disturbed is hardly contempt for the working class
Putting this behaviour down to Socialist thinkers really does seem to take you a step even further than "Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy"

One of my first involvements in active politics (even before I became involved in Folk Song) was to spend a week at a summer school in Hastings listening to magnificent tutors such as Ranji Palme Dutt, E P THomson and Raphael Samuels, alongside trades unionionists like Jimmy Reid
They turned out to be great drinking companions for an apprentice electrician, after the days work was over

This anti-intellectualism has proved the main stumbling block to workers progress -
My merchant Seaman grandfather knew that as a young sailor when he helped set up branches of The Workers Education Association on the ships he worked on
His favourite saying was "Why should the well off have all the knowledge"
I still cringe when I hear people I respect and like say "I've never read a book in my life and it never did me any harm" - it's that type of attitude which keeps us where we are

Back to pleasanter territory, I think
Jim
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM

I see that the government report about Russian involvement in our politics has finally been published. To late of course Generalissimo BoJo suppressed it until he had his feet under the table. Proof of more despicable actions from a despicable regime. And I'm not just talking about Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:33 AM

Rather amused to hear that they didn’t investigate whether the Russians influenced the Brexit Referendum, then reported that they ‘found no evidence’ of Russian involvement in the Brexit Referendum.

Duplicitous cockwombles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:15 AM

Great post, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:52 AM

'why should the well-off have all the knowledge' back in the early days of privatisation my (tankie) friend and i (trot) were, of course, not buying into that thatcherite nonsense. we've regretted it since - they were basically giving money away - why should it all go to the rich?

is never learning the language of money principled or foolish in the circumstances?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:36 AM

It always amused me when my wealthy customers treated me like a dog walking on its hind legs when I discussed literature or classic films with them
I say some of the most enviable collections of books on display in their homes, yet when you went into the bedrooms to do your work you'd find Jeffrey Archer on one bedside table and Barbara Cartland on the other
If it wasn't for our skills they'd have to shit in the garden in the dark
B bit "leftie-peftie" I know
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 06:02 AM

Bet they and their descendants all voted brexit too, Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 07:58 AM

Icanot see any advances being made through the democratic voting system other than possibly ecological energy advances or a change to the voting system. the people that control most of the money are not going to allow it

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

The Labour Party has agreed to pay substantial damages for "failing to properly carry our and obstructing enquiries into antisemitism in The Labour Party" thereby admitting that Labour has a serious antisemitism problem
I wonder if Starmer's supporters here will react to that news
I'm my opinion, no fresh evidence that those accused have done anything more than criticise Israel, as did Long-Bailey
Nice to know the workers party is in safe hands
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:22 AM

I wonder just how many times Carroll will need to be told that people on here are not "Starmer supporters" but accept that for good or bad that he was voted as leader by a majority of Labour party members.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:26 AM

Starmer is working like buggery to distance himself from ""Corbynism." Funny, that. He was by far the most prominent right-winger to REFRAIN from distancing himself whilst shamelessly fence-sitting in Jeremy's shadow cabinet. But now... What price principles?


Et tu, Brute?


The Board Of Deputies will be rubbing their hands with glee. "We GOT 'im!"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:30 AM

The vehement argument has been made here by several people that we need Starmer in order to make Labour electable. If you subscribe to that idea (which is in any case a severe delusion) and say so out loud, you can hardly complain if you get called a Starmer supporter!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:32 AM

Incidentally, I would respectfully suggest that, in order to help preserve some calm around here, we refrain from the Teribus/Iains stunt of calling people by their surnames...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:01 AM

"The vehement argument has been made here by several people that we need Starmer in order to make Labour electable. If you subscribe to that idea (which is in any case a severe delusion) and say so out loud, you can hardly complain if you get called a Starmer supporter!"

Sorry Steve, that is abject nonsense. I do not think anyone who has expressed an opinion would have chosen Starmer themselves. In fact I think they have all said they would NOT have chosen Starmer.

So to suggest that they are "Starmer supporters" is twisting the words of people to suit your own agenda.

Now I know you would not condone that in others so please don't use that tactic yourself eh! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

"I wonder just how many times Carroll will need to be told that people on here are not "Starmer supporters" "

When people start saying that he should not be supported will do fine for me
It appears you are in a cleft stick - you want the party elected with someone who is prepared to sell out the part at its head
If the Labour Party isn't guilty of Antisemitism, the leader needs to challenge that
If it is, I for one would not with to vote for an antisemitic party
In taking this action Starmer has taken steps to appease supporters of one of the most dangerous nations on the planet
Do people really want that as an opposition in Britain today ? - I don't

Regarding the use of my surname - I'm more than happy to understand who I am arguing against - it's become a little boring to be insulted while at the same time told that they like and respect me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM

Can I just add that it strikes me that what is happening here is a microcosm of what is taking place in The Labour Party as a whole - a group of basically at each other's throats over the actions of the Labour Leader
This can't be a hopeful situation considering what's happening in the ountry as a whole
What are we going to be asked to compromise on next - rising unemployment, the lowring of living standards ?
Any Party worth its salt has to have clear long term objectives
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:58 AM

Yet more twisting of words to suit an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 10:29 AM

My only "agenda" in this thread over the last few weeks has been to put the case that it is useless to support/promote/talk up (call it what you will) the current leader of the party on the grounds that you think that he's the only way that Labour could be made electable. That is a sad delusion - he has already shown severe weakness and lack of principle, traits that will come back to bite his arse before the next election. He has so far failed, and will continue to fail, to unite the party. The decision to sack RLB and today's decision over the paying off of dishonourable "whistleblowers" simply show that the real boss of the party right now is the pro-Israel lobby. On top of that, the next election is very likely to be between him and Sunak. Just roll that one round your brain for a minute as you contemplate the respective images of the two men...

Having said all that, I'll be in the party supporting him at the next election. Only because I don't see that I have any other alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 10:49 AM

"Yet more twisting of words to suit an agenda."
This is a bit like Labour Pary antisemitism - alluded to rahher ran described
What agenda are you suggesting ?
I want a decent trustworthy politicians leading the Labour Party - if you are suggesting that as an agenda - guilty as charged
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

Jim, How can I put this politely .....................


Can't


Think I'll try FUCK OFF I'm not interested in trying to talk with you. You are a boring, repetitive, narrow minded, bigoted idiot with all the common sense of a yard brush.