BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

Jim, How can I put this politely .....................


Can't


Think I'll try FUCK OFF I'm not interested in trying to talk with you. You are a boring, repetitive, narrow minded, bigoted idiot with all the common sense of a yard brush.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 10:49 AM

"Yet more twisting of words to suit an agenda."
This is a bit like Labour Pary antisemitism - alluded to rahher ran described
What agenda are you suggesting ?
I want a decent trustworthy politicians leading the Labour Party - if you are suggesting that as an agenda - guilty as charged
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 10:29 AM

My only "agenda" in this thread over the last few weeks has been to put the case that it is useless to support/promote/talk up (call it what you will) the current leader of the party on the grounds that you think that he's the only way that Labour could be made electable. That is a sad delusion - he has already shown severe weakness and lack of principle, traits that will come back to bite his arse before the next election. He has so far failed, and will continue to fail, to unite the party. The decision to sack RLB and today's decision over the paying off of dishonourable "whistleblowers" simply show that the real boss of the party right now is the pro-Israel lobby. On top of that, the next election is very likely to be between him and Sunak. Just roll that one round your brain for a minute as you contemplate the respective images of the two men...

Having said all that, I'll be in the party supporting him at the next election. Only because I don't see that I have any other alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:58 AM

Yet more twisting of words to suit an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM

Can I just add that it strikes me that what is happening here is a microcosm of what is taking place in The Labour Party as a whole - a group of basically at each other's throats over the actions of the Labour Leader
This can't be a hopeful situation considering what's happening in the ountry as a whole
What are we going to be asked to compromise on next - rising unemployment, the lowring of living standards ?
Any Party worth its salt has to have clear long term objectives
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

"I wonder just how many times Carroll will need to be told that people on here are not "Starmer supporters" "

When people start saying that he should not be supported will do fine for me
It appears you are in a cleft stick - you want the party elected with someone who is prepared to sell out the part at its head
If the Labour Party isn't guilty of Antisemitism, the leader needs to challenge that
If it is, I for one would not with to vote for an antisemitic party
In taking this action Starmer has taken steps to appease supporters of one of the most dangerous nations on the planet
Do people really want that as an opposition in Britain today ? - I don't

Regarding the use of my surname - I'm more than happy to understand who I am arguing against - it's become a little boring to be insulted while at the same time told that they like and respect me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:01 AM

"The vehement argument has been made here by several people that we need Starmer in order to make Labour electable. If you subscribe to that idea (which is in any case a severe delusion) and say so out loud, you can hardly complain if you get called a Starmer supporter!"

Sorry Steve, that is abject nonsense. I do not think anyone who has expressed an opinion would have chosen Starmer themselves. In fact I think they have all said they would NOT have chosen Starmer.

So to suggest that they are "Starmer supporters" is twisting the words of people to suit your own agenda.

Now I know you would not condone that in others so please don't use that tactic yourself eh! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:32 AM

Incidentally, I would respectfully suggest that, in order to help preserve some calm around here, we refrain from the Teribus/Iains stunt of calling people by their surnames...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:30 AM

The vehement argument has been made here by several people that we need Starmer in order to make Labour electable. If you subscribe to that idea (which is in any case a severe delusion) and say so out loud, you can hardly complain if you get called a Starmer supporter!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:26 AM

Starmer is working like buggery to distance himself from ""Corbynism." Funny, that. He was by far the most prominent right-winger to REFRAIN from distancing himself whilst shamelessly fence-sitting in Jeremy's shadow cabinet. But now... What price principles?


Et tu, Brute?


The Board Of Deputies will be rubbing their hands with glee. "We GOT 'im!"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:22 AM

I wonder just how many times Carroll will need to be told that people on here are not "Starmer supporters" but accept that for good or bad that he was voted as leader by a majority of Labour party members.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

The Labour Party has agreed to pay substantial damages for "failing to properly carry our and obstructing enquiries into antisemitism in The Labour Party" thereby admitting that Labour has a serious antisemitism problem
I wonder if Starmer's supporters here will react to that news
I'm my opinion, no fresh evidence that those accused have done anything more than criticise Israel, as did Long-Bailey
Nice to know the workers party is in safe hands
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 07:58 AM

Icanot see any advances being made through the democratic voting system other than possibly ecological energy advances or a change to the voting system. the people that control most of the money are not going to allow it

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 06:02 AM

Bet they and their descendants all voted brexit too, Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:36 AM

It always amused me when my wealthy customers treated me like a dog walking on its hind legs when I discussed literature or classic films with them
I say some of the most enviable collections of books on display in their homes, yet when you went into the bedrooms to do your work you'd find Jeffrey Archer on one bedside table and Barbara Cartland on the other
If it wasn't for our skills they'd have to shit in the garden in the dark
B bit "leftie-peftie" I know
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:52 AM

'why should the well-off have all the knowledge' back in the early days of privatisation my (tankie) friend and i (trot) were, of course, not buying into that thatcherite nonsense. we've regretted it since - they were basically giving money away - why should it all go to the rich?

is never learning the language of money principled or foolish in the circumstances?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:15 AM

Great post, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:33 AM

Rather amused to hear that they didn’t investigate whether the Russians influenced the Brexit Referendum, then reported that they ‘found no evidence’ of Russian involvement in the Brexit Referendum.

Duplicitous cockwombles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM

I see that the government report about Russian involvement in our politics has finally been published. To late of course Generalissimo BoJo suppressed it until he had his feet under the table. Proof of more despicable actions from a despicable regime. And I'm not just talking about Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 02:52 AM

PFR
No intention in getting involved in this thread while somewhat disturbing abuse is the only response to criticisms of the Labour leader
If you think a worried young woman sitting on a bus surrounded by a crowd of estate lads has anything to do with her being a socialist thinker, I suggest you might get out more
I lived on one of the roughest overspill estates in Britain - Kirkby; for several years bus drivers refused to drive ot there after nine o clock at night because of the behaviour of the estate lads
I would rather try to hitch home up the East Lancs coming home from the pictures rather than risk the twenty minutes bus journey and I was working on the docks - that a young woman travelling alone might be disturbed is hardly contempt for the working class
Putting this behaviour down to Socialist thinkers really does seem to take you a step even further than "Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy"

One of my first involvements in active politics (even before I became involved in Folk Song) was to spend a week at a summer school in Hastings listening to magnificent tutors such as Ranji Palme Dutt, E P THomson and Raphael Samuels, alongside trades unionionists like Jimmy Reid
They turned out to be great drinking companions for an apprentice electrician, after the days work was over

This anti-intellectualism has proved the main stumbling block to workers progress -
My merchant Seaman grandfather knew that as a young sailor when he helped set up branches of The Workers Education Association on the ships he worked on
His favourite saying was "Why should the well off have all the knowledge"
I still cringe when I hear people I respect and like say "I've never read a book in my life and it never did me any harm" - it's that type of attitude which keeps us where we are

Back to pleasanter territory, I think
Jim
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:32 PM

i son't want much to do with workington anymore

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:35 PM

"I personally have experience interactions with academic socialists,
who were snootily disdainful and afraid of ordinary rough and tough
working class folks.."

I'd better be more specific, in case anyone here takes it the wrong way..

Those were my experiences in the real world,
outside, well away from mudcat...

Classic worst example;
was an uptight middle class workers revolutionary party / militant feminist college lecturer,
who I saw sitting at the back of a bus to Bristol Poly..

She was crammed very uncomfortably amongst young Bristolian estate lads,
and the look on her face was a mix of contempt, disgust, and terror...

That still symbolically sums it up for me,
Socialists who despise the working class...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 12:39 PM

Labour must relearn how to talk with working class ex supporters..

For too long now, Labour has been dominated by middle class academics and career politicians..

The mass of ex voters who flocked to ukip and then boris,
were sick of being lectured, patronised, scolded,
talked down to by haughty Labour ideologues...

I personally have experience interactions with academic socialists,
who were snootily disdainful and afraid of ordinary rough and tough
working class folks..

Labour needs to address people like my council estate family,
in a tone of welcoming common vernacular,
not the sanctimonious scornful dismissive way some high profile Labour MPs
have been doing in recent years...

That does not mean giving into and adopting populist nationalism and far right hatreds,
but engaging working class folk in positive persuasive dialogue
on their own terms,
not the terms of middle class snobs and ideological zealots...

Labour must reach back to it's working class roots...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 07:44 AM

Too literal by far, Nigel. I should think that anyone reading what I said Barb'ry-wise would see it as an attempt to calm things down in jocular fashion. Anyway, if Barb'ry sees it differently I'm sure she'll be along presently to give me a rocket. So thanks for taking the steam out the political debate by acting daft, Nigel. You do have your uses.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 07:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:59 AM
Just checked back... I had a bit of quiet banter with Maggie around 17 June, less of a one with her around 5 May and a brief and cheery exchange with Barb'ry in early April. That's it.

So, April, May & June. Not quite what I would have expected from the statement: For your info, Nigel, I haven't communicated with anyone wearing a mod hat for a long time.

As for: In none of those cases did I try to hire them as my attack dog. Ask 'em! What is it with you at times, Nigel?
What is it with me? It was you who had just said: I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

Maybe you're getting older, and forgetting exactly what you have said & might regret.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 06:06 AM

I am trying to help by trying to persuade you to take a chill pill! Who has what stance tends to get lost in these pointless battles...

Points made (as far as I can see it) so far, at least by me:

Starmer is a man in suit.

Starmer is a middle-of-the-raid vacillator, long-proven (e.g. by his brexit stance, or lack thereof).

Starmer sacked RLB which he shouldn't have done, thereby shedding his principles and pandering to the vicious forces of the liars who accuse Labour of antisemitism. A follower, not a leader. A poodle, not a lion among men (and women). Those liars will be forever on his tail now. A fatal blunder has been committed.

He lacks charisma, a fatal flaw unlikely to be fixed.

In the next election he will likely be up against Sunak, a young, dynamic-looking, cheery chap who has got charisma by the bucket load.

Therefore we are doomed, which would make it doubly stupid for us to ditch OUR principles in the deluded cause of electoral expediency. It won't and can't work. Sitting here for the next four years and letting this just wash over us won't do. The election knocked the stuffing out of us. There's a fight to be fought, and how we do that is what we should be squabbling about...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM

..and labour are unlikely to win any elections
unless they make a self disciplined show of party unity to the public,
and fight back just as dirty as the tories when the gloves are off...

Working class voters, tend to respect plain talking [even sweary] blokes and blokettes,
to smarmy sanctimonious puritans in suits..

The far right knows this, and that's why they are gaining so much support...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:38 AM

Jim - stop this petulant insulting nonsense accusing me of being right wing...

You are being far too petty, deliberately twisting any words I say,
to fit your silly notion you are a victim of bullying..

You know you are not, so drop the play acting..
Most of us regulars here will not fall for it..

We've seen this all too often before when you work yourself up into this self indulgent mood..

Steve - you are not helping by picking sides,
which you seem to be determining the members of..

Pro Starmer v Anti Starmer..

As far as I can see, we all feel let down Labour voted for him...!!!

..and if he's the best the party could come up with...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:09 AM

The media and the pro-Israel advocates in this country and overseas made sure he wasn't the man, Dave, especially after he'd done surprisingly well in 2017. OK, he wasn't the man, but let's at least recognise why he wasn't. A massive factor is that he wasn't trusted as a remainer whereas Bozo couldn't have made HIS stance clearer. But give me an unspun man of principle over this bloody clown any day!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:59 AM

Just checked back... I had a bit of quiet banter with Maggie around 17 June, less of a one with her around 5 May and a brief and cheery exchange with Barb'ry in early April. That's it. In none of those cases did I try to hire them as my attack dog. Ask 'em! What is it with you at times, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM

While I may agree, Steve, it is blatantly obvious that Corbyn was not the man either. What we need is a left-ish Blair or, better still, a Becky L-B :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:49 AM

For your info, Nigel, I haven't communicated with anyone wearing a mod hat for a long time. In fact, I don't even know whether Barb'ry is still around! So do try not to be silly...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:44 AM

At least some information has come out of the latest discussion.
Steve Shaw appears to consider one of the moderators is his personal attack dog: Now bloody man up and drop the contumely, the lot of ye! Otherwise I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

At least we'll know who's been 'running to teacher'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I think that Dick, Jim and I (hardly a triumvirate of boundless virtue) all see that Keir Starmer is simply not the man. That's a respectable view, and a handful of dissenters from the expedient on Mudcat are hardly going to doom the party. And I don't see how asking everyone to cool it and step back is pouring petrol on the flames. Let's see how we get on in the next few days. And let's not forget that we're all getting on a bit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM

maybe even Dick, think that he's a born panderer who is ditching left-wing principles in an utterly doomed attempt to put Labour back on the map. Neither side knows the outcome of the next few years, but these are valid points for argument. quote steve shaw
yes that is approximately my thoughts.
starmer may win discussion points at pm question time,.
i am not convinced he is any more electable than Corbyn, i think he lacks appeal to blue collar workers, i think he might gain a few centre votes, but he will lose left votes, to the green party, and i am guessing that the most likely outcome is a lib lab coalition which might involve a deal on proportional representation.
I am convinced that if he [starmer] had been leader at the last election the result would still have been a conservative victory as a result of the electoral pact between the conservatives and brexit parties
how would starmer have won pro brexit labour votes that corbyn failed to win? , he is just as middle class and lacks any working class appeal he comes across as a typical barrister, whereas johnson and farage and trump have something that appeals to blue collar workers. I THINK THE LAST THREE ARE DESPICABLE. BUT I AM NOT A BLUE COLLAR PRO BREXIT LABOUR VOTER

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 03:30 AM

"I've cut Jim more slack, out of respect,"
I think I'll cut the bullies a bit of slack and leave you to it fo a while
This has become far too childishly bullying to bother with - I saw too much of that in the schoolyard

"Comrade Jimski..."
Good to see the right coming out of their closets though
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 03:28 AM

I have PMd you Steve but I would like to address a point you make publicly. You have never made the same points that Jim has. At least not in the same way. You have never asked for answers that have already been given because you do read and understand what other people say. You keep your points succinct and make them just once. And, as far as I know, you have never made a thread about yourself. I don't wish to make you sound a paragon of virtue. None of us are. But look for the common factor in all the most vitriolic threads.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:49 AM

Of course Bills passed in parliament can be reversed but if the NHS has already been sued or if trade deals are already in place it becomes so much more difficult. We can but hope that El Presidento Johnson is ousted from within before he becomes impossible to remove.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM

DMCG. spot on

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 01:51 AM

A major political event happened last night we need to be aware of: Parliament voted to have no power to review trade bills.

What that means is that if Liz Truss decides to agree a deal with the US that lowers food standards or gives the US the right to buy some NHS services, Parliament cannot intervene. They also voted down protections for the NHS, and against the UK being sued by multinational companies.

And because Parliament cannot intervene, neither can we. No mass campaigns, marches of millions, letters to MPs can have any effect, because the MPs have no power on the matter.

Our influence has just been voted away.

Personally, I find this more important than the last few days' discussion on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 01:28 AM

Now this is more like it..

Sleazy tory MP sex scandal...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53472289

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 PM

Robo - so basically all Jim is achieving
is making a case for iains to be readmitted...

Steve'll love that twist...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:54 PM

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going on when so many of you are defending your freedom of rant after having exiled Iaians when the main perceptible difference is what side of the aisle you are presenting.

I know he is somehow 'different' but in the postings in this thread all he did was irritate you the same way you were irritating him and each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:14 PM

"The kick-off point is that some here are happy with Starmer and think he's the only way forward for us to have any chance of a future victory "

Who's that then...???
I don't recall anyone here saying they think much of Starmer's character,
or are impressed by Labour voting him as leader...

At best someone's only said he's a good performer at PM's question sessions..
That's as much as I remember anyone having anything positive to say about him...

Jim has just completely gone of on one,
based only on his own distorted misconstrued imaginings of what he thinks any of said..

Have you actually been properly reading this thread,
before you step in here
like a dozy chummy village bobby lecturing naughty lads on their wayward behaviour...

I've cut Jim more slack, out of respect,
than I ever would for anyone else..
But there is a limit to our patience with how he is currently behaving at us...

Are you really trying to help,
or throw petrol on the fire like donuel is...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 08:51 PM

I had the right thread. It shows while the US did nearly everything wrong, the UK and NHS has done rather well afterall.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:47 PM

Sorry, John, but you're the past master when it comes to the tongue-lashing and accusing. Just read your own posts over the last few days, why don't you. We've had your vile and intemperate language, personal sweary insults and slurs apropos of his domicile. It's in your gift, and pfr's, to step back, cut Jim some slack and even just have a smile at it all. If the mods wade in, shut stuff down and get all hoity-toity with us, it'll be down to you and pfr just as much as to Jim, if not more, if they happen to base their actions on the last few days' posts. Just drop it, all of ye. The kick-off point is that some here are happy with Starmer and think he's the only way forward for us to have any chance of a future victory and that others, me and Jim it seems, maybe even Dick, think that he's a born panderer who is ditching left-wing principles in an utterly doomed attempt to put Labour back on the map. Neither side knows the outcome of the next few years, but these are valid points for argument. Now bloody man up and drop the contumely, the lot of ye! Otherwise I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:31 PM

Stop the tongue-lashing, accusing, lecturing, pontificating, talking down to those who don’t see the world the way you do, twisting their words, claiming they’ve said things they haven’t, demanding they subject themselves to The Carrollish Inquisition then.

It’s in your own hands..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:28 PM

...Jim - persist in stubbornly getting the wrong end of the stick
as much as you like..

All we can do as mudcat mates is try to persuade you to stop acting up so visibly,
before Mods notice and wade in to take it out of all our hands...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 04:08 PM

”I'm amazed at your capacity for brutal insult, John,“

You should consider first the brutal abuse and provocation I’ve had to tolerate for no other reason than my moderate views on the current situation the Labour Party finds itself in.

I’m ‘amazed’ too. Amazed that you defend the indefensible. Not only that, you include an attempt to provoke me further as part of that defence. How low can you go?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM

Steve - Jim is preaching to the converted about starmer...

But he's vainly banging on as if he is the only lefty amongst us with that level of enlightenment..

Then he insults us by saying we are starmer fanboys and efffin right wingers..

I occasionally tell Jim how much I admire his analysis, historical recall and perspective....
How I consider him something of an online mentor..

But he is not beyond a good telling off by his mudcat mates,
when he needs it...