BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:23 PM

... I am not sure ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:24 PM

please don't make them public domain...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:50 PM

"must have some very interesting pics of Johnson."
Jaysus - I'm about to have my meal Baccie
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:10 PM

According to a Guardian report of where the Cummings were seen, it wasn't Barnard Castle at all; it was Startforth. Now, admittedly crossing between them takes about 20 seconds on foot over the 16th C bridge, but Barney is in County Durham and Startforth was in North Yorkshire, for example, until transferred to County Durham administrative and ceremonial purposes on 1 April 1974. As with all these places, they don't hold with this new fangled stuff, and consider themselves from Yorkshire. Mixing them up, for the locals, is about as risky as mixing up Newcastle and Gateshead.

Anyway, Startforth is south of the river, and GMK is north of the river, and would be a substantial walk for the child. Depending on how they got to Startforth and where they parked, Dominic Cummings might have gone, but I doubt if the child would. It would make more sense to park north of the river in Barney if visiting GMK was part of their reason for being there.

So my inclination is to suspect they did not visit GMK on this occasion, though of course that is largely conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:14 PM

GSK throughout that. (What an idiot!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 20 - 06:17 AM

Just seen a Reuter’s fact-check article in which Idox state that their recently-appointed non-executive Director, Alice Cummings, is not related to, and has no connection with, Dominic Cummings.

I suppose we have to take their word for it but, in the face of the barefaced lies being touted by most of the leading members of the government regarding Durhamgate, it’s becoming more and more difficult to separate truth from deception.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 May 20 - 11:27 AM

At the end of last week, my brother in law had the virus test because he works in a care home. It came back 'unclear'. So he was ask to take another test and it came back 'positive'. Then he and his wife went for a test to confirm the result and they both came back 'negative'.

Strangely enough, they are they are now a combination of confused and worried (he has underlying health issues.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:28 PM

I wrote to my MP today. He's Scott Mann, Conservative MP for north Cornwall. You might think I was a bit mild.


Dear Mr Mann

I live near Bude, and for 18 months now my 91-year-old mother has been living in a care home in Whitstone, just six miles from me. Before the lockdown I visited her about four times a week. That stopped suddenly in early March. She is profoundly deaf, so I can't speak to her on the telephone, and she is neither allowed out nor am I allowed in to see her. It's now almost three months since I last saw her. Like thousands of people around the country, I've accepted that my mum and I must put up with this very distressing situation for our own safety and for the greater good of the country as a whole.

Imagine then how I feel about Dominic Cummings doing what he did. I can't accept that he had no alternative, a man in his position and presumably with a considerable circle of potential support in London. I hope you will consider joining the growing ranks of Conservative MPs calling for him to step down. The Government will be seriously diminished in its moral standing in the country should he remain in post.

Yours sincerely

Steve Shaw

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:31 PM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson wrote to our party-line-toeing Tory MP in similar terms, Steve. We hold out little hope of his support.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:58 PM

Apparently there is a local support group where he lives that would have helped out with his child, even though cummings does not support them himself!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 20 - 12:35 AM

Mrs. Backwoodsperson wrote to our party-line-toeing Tory MP in similar terms, Steve. We hold out little hope of his support

I would - in fact probably did - say the same about my MP, but Royston Smith has joined the list of those who have publicly said Cummings must go. Given his solid ERG support, his support for TTIP, his being identified by the Independent as the least active MP in the 2016 intake, his track record of voting along the party lines (except always pro hard Brexit) ...

Assuming they don't back down, the SNP said they will submit an Early Day Motion saying "This house believes Cummings must go". If that happens, each MP will be forced to declare their stance or abstain. They are all aware of their inboxes and letters and there are enough who have said they want Cummings to go to overturn the 80 majority. If they do not, of course, they will be personally weakened by publicly saying one thing but voting differently.

However: I think there is a great risk that even if he loses the vote, Johnson will simply ignore it. If the Durham Constabulary ask Cummings to come to an interview, I strongly suspect he will ignore them and Johnson would back him. We are in extremely dangerous times if that happens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 01:25 AM

It is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:59 AM

Johnson had now ruld out an enquiry into the Cummings affair despite the fact that the number of Toty MPs demanding action on it now top 40
Democrcy rules Ok in the Tory Party, it would appear
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:24 AM

I wonder if any of the former-Red-Wall Neo-Tory voters are now beginning to regret their three-word-slogan-fuelled folly in November last year?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:36 AM

John Crace telling it like it is once again, in The Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:57 AM

our 'workington man' tory mp Mark Jenkinson defends all the government lies and insults to ordinary people and doesn't like people criticising him or them. it's a risky business round here as he has a well-established reputation as being a bully and not too smart. which reminds me i must change my name. if anyone is interested we have a very good local guy posting on facebook as 'left-eye news' workington. he's quite funny about 'our jenky'

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 May 20 - 07:41 AM

Barnard Castle Eye Test A limited edition beer (New England style IPA 6%).
It's been mentioned (positively) in The Guardian, and is quite a clever piss-take (or should that be piss-make?). Profits on the sales are going to Brewdog's continued production of hand-sanitiser for the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 May 20 - 02:25 PM

I have just been in a Zoom call with Keir Starmer (along with a great number of others, obviously.) I was impressed at the way he handled all the questions thrown at him, and there was a promise that all the questions submitted will be answered, so I wait to see what he says about mine. But I am just off for an evening walk now, so you will have to wait for the next installment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:44 PM

The closed hospital crisis in Weston super mare..

Do we need to say more about whichever fukwit authorised relaxing restrictions on long distance travel..

..to 'exercise'...!!!?????

It doesn't need professors and expensive state of the art mathematical modelling
to have predicted these obvious consequences..

Trusting the common sense of the English population...???

That's a sick joke..

The Govt is definitely devoid of any...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:46 PM

Keir Starmer is very clued up and very intelligent with no insincere bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:01 AM

My review of the 'Ask Keir' videoconference with Kier Stsrmer 'at' Southmapton.

Let's begin with a health warning. I understand that every politician wants to say things that resonate with people, and presenting it well is a skill many have. I have heard many politicians 'live' with an audience and most of them manage to leave the audience satisified and even buoyed up. Most of them do that with a well rehearsed speech, and rhetorical skills - knowing what to repeat, knowing when to raise and lower the voice and so on - so it is in some ways more like attending a performance of a play, rather than a meeting.

So, we need to make sure we are not carried away by it all.

The timing, format and content were all important, so I will say a bit about each. It took place on 28/5/2020, starting at 6:15pm; the daily coronavirus meeting had ended something like 15 minutes beforehand. The session opened with an introduction by the chairman who was strictly non-political but a presenter of Wave Radio, a local station. I guess, but don't know, that it went out live on the radio as well. He spoke for less than a minute and just described how the session would run. So at round about 6:17, Keir Started speaking and spoke for no more than 2 minutes himself saying the whole purpose was to answer people's questions, but he wanted to say he was appalled by how the questions to the scientists had been blocked by Johnson in the press conference that had just finished, and how dangerous that was.

I make a point of that, because as in my health warning, even in Q+A sessions, a lot of the same questions come up, and a good politician has, after a few such sessions, stock answers he can give. This was a 'near real time' event: he had no focus-group information on whether people thought Johnson was right to stop the questions or not. In fact, because there is a 'chat window' running alongside the press conference, the only feedback he might have got was that people thought it was right to stop the scientists being drawn in. (I suspect that are a lot of tory staffers posting many of the comments, but that is by-the-by.) So his condemnation of that and recognition of the dangers was as near genuine as you could expect.

It was an hour session, and we are about three minutes into it. The rest of the time, he was responding to questions from the public. He did seem to have a template for the answer, which was invite the person to say how they voted last election and why they chose that, then answer the question, then ask them if they had one thought they wanted him to take away from this, what would it be? He did not follow that absolutely strictly, but it seemed to come up a lot.

One of the things he had said in the opening 2 minutes was he recognised how badly Labour had failed at the election, and the only way to turn that round in his view was to listen to people, particularly those who didn't vote Labour and understand their concerns. He said people often ask him which previous leader he most models himself on, and he claims not to. Obviously, that is one of these prepared answers, but I would say there is one characteristic of Blair that he seemed to me to follow: a willingness to do what it takes to win. There are definite risks in that, especially for those who fear he will be too centrist, or even towards the right. But it is clearly different to the Corbyn approach, which was much more if you present the right policies, people will vote for it.

As it happened, almost everyone who asked a question had voted Conservative in the last election. There was one ex-LibDem councillor who had also voted LibDem in the last election, but said he had been persuaded by Keir over the past few months so would vote for him next time. The was a youth of around 16 who clearly hadn't had a chance to vote yet, and one of perhaps 25 who was a bit depressed because he lives in a Tory stronghold so felt he vote was largely wasted, but everyone else was either a long standing Conservative or an Labour-but-voted-Tory-last-time person. There were no 'alt-right' Conservatives.

The questions were, in the main, fairly predictable. A nurse wanted to know how we deal with long term pay and conditions. The 16 year old was concerned about how results would be handled, another was concerned about BAME differences in susceptability to the virus and what was being done to protect those at risk and so on.

So some of the answers were stock, I am sure, but they did seem to make sense to me. For example, I liked his decisiveness about school re-opening: yes, we do have to open them as soon as possible, so "we have to lock all the unions, headmasters, scientific advisors, local authorities in a room and hammer out an agreed approach and no-one leaves until we have". One party simply declaring the route cannot work.

Overall, he came over as decisive, and genuinely listening. And I believe he was: this determination to win came over strongly, and I do think he sees understanding why people did not vote for them last time is key.   I also liked the ability to react to the press conference that had finished only a few minutes before while doing other preparation for the call (presumably)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:25 AM

I see the Guardian has a quotation from the session I have just described:

Labour also kept the pressure on Johnson. Keir Starmer, the party leader, said it was “extraordinary that the prime minister stopped the scientists being able to answer a question put to them by journalists”.

Answering questions on a virtual Q&A with voters, Starmer said this reflected badly on Johnson: “The government has been saying for weeks on end, this is about transparency, it’s about answering whatever questions you’ve got. And then on the question people want to hear an answer on, he stops them answering. It’s the wrong thing to do.

“I don’t think he’s going to have impressed anybody with that tonight. I don’t think he’s impressed anybody over the past week.”

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:50 AM

Just imagine the outrage of Jeremy Corbyn had done a Cummings. To say I am disgusted by the attitude of Bojo and his sycophants is an understatement. I have friends who are now attacking the press for what they are doing after a long silence while that same press were destroying Corbyn. I am not going to fall out with them over this but you can be damned sure that I will point out that the press have always been the same. One thing in Cummings' favour. If the Daily Heil are running for him, he must have done something right :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:55 AM

I found Starmer's stance on this issue a strong confirmation that he isn't going to rock the status-quo boat as far as righting the wrongs in Britain
He didn't stress the outrageous behavour of this bunch of crooks in defending this arrogant arsehole - he said Boorish must "Get back on track"
I doubt that many here don't know where that track leads
The Tories have yet to get "on track" as gar as the pandemic is concerned - twists, contradictions, confusion and U-turns so far - who want to go there
Last night's Question Time was almost overwhelmingly condemnatory - but nobody asked the right question - if the architect of this lock-down can ignore the guidelines with the enthusiastic support of the Government why the **** shouldn't nobody else who feels like it do the same
This lethal moron should be frogmarched out of Downing Street along to The Old Bailey and tried for deliberately misleading the British People
Maybe they can find a jury of his peers in Regent's Park Zoo
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:28 AM

I can hardly bring myself to watch the awful Helen Whately. God knows how people like that get anyone to actually vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:35 AM

"If the Daily Heil are running for him, he must have done something right :-)"
Oddlly enough, the arch-Tory Murdoch bumwipe, 'The Times' seem happy for their cartoonist to use him as a punchbag - I haven't seen such ridicule-filled cartoons since the halcyon days of Jeremy Corbyin - when Labour had a leader worthy of its name
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:32 AM

Front page headline from The Times:
"PM eases lockdown for friends and family"

Well, that's the Cummingses and Johnsons sorted then ;)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:43 AM

""Well, that's the Cummingses and Johnsons sorted then ;)"
Do you honestly think so Nigel
It was a coincidence that the announcement came on yet another day of him and his Party sinking deeper into the Klarts over the Cummings "get out of jail free" fiasco of course
After all, what's risking a few thousand lives next to losing your own personal unelected gofer
Are you really happy with all this Nigel - you surprise me ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:57 AM

the smart political move for cummings wouldbe to apologise resign and quietly return in nine months time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:12 AM

I think Nigel was havin’ a larrff, Jim! A rare bit of lighthearted Nigel whimsy - very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:12 AM

I think he was too - not so rare with him - he supports the Tory Party - doesn't get more whimsical tan that :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 May 20 - 09:24 AM

Perhaps, at 2-50AM, the words were intended to be, "if the Daily Heil is 'gunning' for him..."? Seems consistent, but of course D the G may confirm.
Curse you, "Autocorrect"!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:49 PM

Yep. My spill chucked ducked it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:07 PM

I'm tempted to see a connection with "conjectural restorations" of missing or corrupt lines in some old songs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 08:21 AM

Four leading health experts have spoken out at the Government's plans for easing lockdown describing it an unresearched 'leap in the dark'
One pointed out that any plans that any plans to relax lockdown has too be approached regionally as situations differ enormously in different parts of Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 12:35 PM

Well. the south west where I live is now suffering direct consequences of the far too premature relaxing of travel restrictions..

boris is scared of losing popularity with the undisciplined unruly 'chavs' and cretins who put him in power,
and are now becoming restless to get pissed, party, f@ck, and fight
at our local seaside and rural beauty spots...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:12 PM

The chief medical officer has just stated that it is fat too dangerous to proceed in this way - he also quietly slated Cummings, especially for his 30m 'Test my eyesight" journey
What a shower
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:17 PM

Yebbut, yebbut, yebbut...look over there - Labour antisemitism! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:49 PM

That's my line BWM :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 02:23 PM

yebbut.. Corbyn broke the lockdown...!!!

why don't the mainstream media go after him
like the way they're cruelly persecuting poor responsible justifiable dom cummings...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:11 PM

Pfr, Corbyn is yesterday’s man as far as the Whataboutery-Brigade are concerned. Nowadays they’re after Sir Keir Starmer, with claims that he ‘protected the grooming-gangs’. All complete nonsense of course, but any port in a storm...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:17 PM

I see a possible row with Van-Tam, now that he said in today's press conference:

“In my opinion the rules are clear and have always been clear. In my opinion they are for the benefit of all and they apply to all.”

If the government are stupid, they will say: we agree - the rules are clear and Cummings was within them. That will then lead to Van-Tam being asked for more clarification next time he is on (if ever!) and the story keeps going.

I thought the story could have died, but it is now live enough for Keir to raise it at the next PMQ without looking like he is flogging the famous dead horse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:25 PM

I emailed my PM earlier today to express my considerable anger at the action of Dominic Cummings. I received a reply this evening that surprised me for two reason. One that the reply was so quick and secondly the reply itself. I have to congratulate my PM for being so candid and forthcoming. The salient part of his reply is below.

"If press reports are correct, Dominic Cummings has fallen short of the standards we expect of every individual, never mind a person who should be setting an example. If he was unsure what the rules were then he could have got advice from medical experts and those in charge of the programme at the very highest level. At the very least he could have made it publicly clear what he intended to do ahead of travelling north.

I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:38 PM

But... but... that's far too clear and concise for the gentleman in question. And not a mention of "cracking-on", "following the science", or even a Latin "tag" so familiar it can be found in any medium-sized Dictionary. I regret to say someone must be impersonating the bold Boris, Raggytash. Fair play to you for writing directly to The PM, though. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:49 PM

BWM - I obviously agree with you.. [errmmm.. Corbyn - who he...???]

But what I posted about Corbyn is near verbatim [ok a little poetic license..],
still being whatabouted to defend the indefensible
on other social media...

..they're that thick...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:16 AM

A scathing piece by George Monbiot, detailing the behaviour of The Johnson Gang in the conscious, deliberate ‘de-preparing’ the UK for the Covid-19 pandemic, and the reasons for it - and, as always with the Tory ideologues, it’s about the money...always about their god, money.

https://www.monbiot.com/2020/05/26/the-machine-stops/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Raggy:
Did you mean to say I emailed my PM earlier today or was 'PM' a typo for 'MP'.
I ask because ABCD appears to think that the reply you quoted was from Boris.

The response you quoted was not as clear cut as it appears.
"If press reports are correct, Dominic Cummings has fallen short of the standards we expect of every individual, never mind a person who should be setting an example. If he was unsure what the rules were then he could have got advice from medical experts and those in charge of the programme at the very highest level. At the very least he could have made it publicly clear what he intended to do ahead of travelling north.
I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post."

The two 'if's give your MP as much wriggle room as members of HIGNFY adding "allegedly" to some sentences.
As for suggesting that he should have made his travel plans public. Apart from Royalty, no-one does that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 20 - 06:35 AM

Maybe I am coming down with something - I feel the need to defend the government on some things....

Well, not really. More that I think if you accuse them too wildly of things, they are easily denied and you look untrustworthy yourself. So it is a good idea not to get too hyperventilated.

"The government knowingly and deliberately de-prepared the UK, even as the pandemic began to bite."

That seems to me a bit of a misrepresentation. It sounds almost as if the objective was to make the UK less prepared. It is much more accurate, I would guess, to say the value of preparation was unrecognised and undervalued. Reducing stockpiles 'saves money' in the grand scheme of things. That is makes you less resilient was not treated with enough seriousness, but it should not presented and a deliberate decision to increase risk, in my opinion.


Mary Bousted, Joint General Secretary of the National Education Union said "The government's plans on reopening schools since they were first produced on 12 May have been changed 41 times, and that's because they constantly had to be revised as things they'd forgotten, things they didn't know, things they got wrong, have been added in."

I think that very much depends on what the changes were and if they were highlighted. Imagine an overall document on school management that says within it there will be appendices issued over the next week covering these 10 specific areas where special considerations apply, followed by a list including things like science laboratories, contact sports, changing rooms and so on. I would not personally consider the appearance of those anticipated appendices changes. On the other hand, if the same appendices appeared with no form of warning they were planned, it does look very much as if they have only arisen because after release of the documents someone said "What about science labs?"

Ok, got that off my chest. Normal opinions will resume shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Nigel, I made a mistake when I typed PM I should have typed MP.

I should have also have stated that he is a conservative who normally toes the party line so for him to reply "I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post" was quite startling.

Well done him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:12 AM

"toes the party line "
Don't know i anybody's been watching arch-Thatcherite Michael Portillo's stunning exposé of Britain's ruthless exploitation of the Colonial Empire, especially the Indian sub-continent
Don't think I've ever seen such a trip along The Road to Damascus - already got the "Outraged from the Atheneum" keyboards catching fire
Jim