BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:49 AM

Any party that ditches its principles so shabbily and ruthlessly isn't worth shit either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM

“”Any party that expels members for telling the truth isn't worth shit”

RL-B hasn’t been ‘expelled’ by the LP, Jim. She’s been relieved of her position in the Shadow Cabinet.

Any party that can’t get itself elected to form a government isn’t worth shit. A Tory majority of 81 ought to tell you something - it’s not rocket-science.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM

The sacking was unprincipled, opportunistic and cowardly. Instead of showing strength in standing up to any genuine antisemitism, he has gleefully taken the opportunity he has been waiting for to begin to "cleanse" his shadow cabinet of lefties, and has thereby shown himself to be a weak-willed boot-licker of the pro-Israel lobby in this country. I can just imagine the blood rushing to the heads of the Board Of Deputies. Who can we get next, they'll be thinking...You who are defending him can read the piece that led to the sacking. There was no conspiracy theory and no antisemitism. He is doing the very thing that leads to divisions. No doubt you'll be blaming the left when it all goes pear-shaped. Yours angrily, Steve, only just still a party member...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 06:14 AM

Corbyn brought in many new members not because of his personality or his experience (he had neither) but because he offered a return to Labour principles
Starmer is set fair to loose just as many with his abandoning of those principles
Throwing his ministers to the wolves makes him no better than the worst of the Tory leaders and it helps keep scum like Netanyahu in place to continue interfering in the British Parliamentary system
Bailey and Peake were right - Israel has trained 10 US police forces including the force that killed Floyd
TRAINED to STRANGLE
Any party that expels members for telling the truth isn't worth shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM

Absolutely Nail/Head, DMcG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:10 AM

I agree, Backwoodsman. Had Keir Starmer not acted as he did, it would have awoken the entire antisemitism row again. Before the last election Labour spent months arguing whether various statements were or were not anti-Semitic and all it did was destroy their position. I know several long term Labour voters who voted with other parties - not Conservatives - because of 'the antisemitism thing.' For Keir to go down the route of arguing it was not really anti-Semitic would have been severely wounding, if not potentially fatal. His very first statement, more or less, was that he wanted to end that row. Rebecca Long-Bailey was perhaps no more than carelessly patting the back of loyalist in her constituency. Perhaps she had done no more than speed-read the article. No matter, I am afraid. The topic is too politically dangerous to risk re-opening it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:04 AM

The lock-down should be eased ony when the risk has been minimised enough to do so.
The main factor has to be a health - not an economic one
We have seen d deliberate undermining of the heal advice eing given, largely by the business sector and the politicians who back them
It's rather like WW1 where every yard of territory ought over was calculated by how namy lives could be sacrificed
None of the tings you mentioned are due to the lock-down - they are due to the pandemic - the lock-down is an unavoidable consequence of that
Much of this revolves around public perception and reaction - the ease-down is announced and you get mass madness like yesterday's Bournemouth Beach
This has been the way things are since the confusion of sending people back to work on Monday - whoops, I meant Wednesday - crammed cattle-trucks on the London tube
National lemmingism
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM

What the Labour Party needs most of all is unity, and loyalty to their elected leader.

It’s very strange that those who deplored the disloyalty suffered by Corbyn, and the way he was undermined by his own party’s members, are now displaying precisely the same kind of disloyalty towards Starmer. And that’s the flaw which the Tories will take advantage of more and more in order to ensure another election victory.

It gives me no pleasure to say it but, as someone who has only turned to Labour in recent years, it seems patently obvious Labour really do need to wake up, smell the coffee, and realise that they are their own worst enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM

Jim posted "It will be argued when things go wrong that the risk was taken "for the good of the country" - the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders"

I am not sure what you are saying here. is it that they should not be relaxing the lockdown until people are sure that there is no risk?

Then you say "the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders"

Are you saying the economy is heading that way due to the lockdown or for some other reason?

The facts are that we are heading for huge economic problems. The government has spent huge amounts of money and will probably have to continue to do so, while at the same time revenues are falling faster than ever.

People are losing their jobs because of the lockdown and it is most likely that a lot more jobs will be lost. Even if a cure for the virus was found today, it will take quite a time for things ever to return to 'normal'.

As I mentioned a while back, it has struck me that most of the regular posters to these threads are no longer working. The loss of jobs will probably only hit you later, when services that you use are affected. For those people who are still working, the loss of their jobs will have a dramatic and immediate effect on their lives. For those small to medium business owners the loss of their business will have the same effect.

We are living in troubled times and I don't see any easy remedies ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 03:32 AM

"No it isn't. "
Yest it is and it has never attempted to hide that fact
It is a natural progression of the feudalist system it replaced the dominance of the wealthy and the powerful over the peasant's/workers - that's history Dave
Even at the best of times, the bank balances of those that have are placed above the general good
Today we are seeing this writ large - people are being forced into "a new normality" when it is fairly obvious that winter will bring a second wave of the virus - as is already beginning to happen in some countries which have jumped the gun
Johnson got a bad scare after his sickness - he still looks pretty shaken; he stood up and swore that the lockdown would not be lifted too soon
He was persuaded otherwise by a divided cabinet and business pressure
It will be argued when things go wrong that the risk was taken "for the good of the country" - the way the economy is heading, all working people have to look forward to is the hope of a breadline job stacking shelves for Morrisons
The only beneficiaries will be the wealthiest and most secure of the shareholders

By the way, most attempts to "change the system" managed miracles beyond belief - semi-feudal empires turned into world leaders with massive iprovements in lifing standards across the board, and world-leading edcucation and health in less than half a century - despite constant outside interference, Civil Wars, a world War and a cold war - and corrupt (even insane) leaders
These were achieved by huge sacrifices, sure, but we've all been asked to make them, whatever system we live under
Capitalism relies on an unequal society with the wealthy dominating a subservient 'lower order' - that is a flawed society

Amen to everything you wrote Steve - Starmer is a ruthless Blair writ large - at least 'Our Tone' started off with principles - if Keerie has his way, they will be things of the past
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 06:26 PM

Keir Starmer has today revealed three facets of his character. First, he is politically astute. He knows that his ruthless action re Becky Long-Bailey mutes the vicious opponents of Corbynism, both in the party and outside, with regard to the bogus running sore of antisemitism in the party. Second, he is viciously dishonest. The remark that was supposed to be antisemitic, made by Maxine Peake, was absolutely no such thing, and he knows it. Antisemitism is attacking Jews because they are Jews. The comment in question contained nothing of that sort whatsoever. Attacking the actions of the Israeli state is never, ever, antisemitic. Unless, of course, you make the criticism then add, or imply, that "it's typical of Jews..." which was neither remotely said nor implied. Third, he is a bloody coward who has been led by the nose by the Board Of Deputies, an undemocratic setup that was also responsible in large part for the extremely dishonest and disreputable "working definition of antisemitism," which had the prime aim of stifling any criticism of successive Israeli regimes over their dreadful mistreatment of the Palestinian minority in the territories they control. The pusillanimous and downright creepy and unconditional support of the outrages committed by successive Israeli regimes will one day come back to bite those who indulge in it. Starmer has already shown that he's such a good fence-sitter that his arse must be more splinters than flesh. This move today is simply further confirmation. I look forward to a big backlash in the party. In other words, grrr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:43 PM

Capitalism is a system based on fostering and encouraging a natural greed that is instinctive in most

No it isn't. That may be the result but capitalism is a system that concentrates on the private sector and profit while socialism concentrates on the the state and welfare of the people. The obvious choice for anyone that cares is the latter but, to date, no system has as yet managed to overcome all the issues. There is now another factor. Both private industry and the state are squandering natural resources at a rate that cannot be sustained. When all the resources are spent or when the climate cannot maintain human life, petty political differences will matter not one jot. It's time to compromise and all work together.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 12:57 PM

I read a fairly legit report a few days ago on the extent of Israeli military and ex-military
involvement
in lucrative international 'security consultancy' contracts...

It's big $$$$$s business for Israel...

What.. Bailey a handy sacrificial lamb to demonstrate Sir Keith can be a decisive hard man,
just when he is berating boris for being so soft on his [allegedly..] corrupt tory sycophant hench men...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 12:30 PM

A few facts here
"Over 100 Minnesota Law Enforcement Officers Attended A 2012 Conference Organized By The Israeli Consulate In Which Israeli Police Trained Them. Israeli Forces Often Use The Knee-On-Neck Restraint On Palestinians."
HERE
MORE

Good to know the Labour Party is in a safe pair of hands !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM

I would have thought it more important for the shadow cabinet to be concentrating on uk government and corruuption,was she being anti semitic?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

I understand that she has been sacked for agreeing with Maxine Peake that the US police learned their kneeling on neck technique fro the Israeli Secret Service
Israel is not the 'Jewish People' so in now way can she be accused of antisemitism - on the contrary - anybody who makes such an accusation is in breach of the 10th clause of the definition of antisemitism by linking the Jewish People with Israeli Policy
I knew Sir Keefe was a scumbag
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM

That should of course be ‘sacked from the shadow cabinet’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 10:50 AM

Wow! Reported just now that RL-B has been sacked for sharing an article on Twitter that contains an ‘anti-Semitic conspiracy theory’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 05:14 AM

Re the German outbreak in the meat processing plant:

Martin Exner, a hygiene and public health expert at the university of Bonn, spent two days analysing the Tönnies meat-processing plant in Gütersloh, where an entire district has been sent back into lockdown after around 1,500 employees were infected with Coronavirus.

Slaughterhouses have also been at the heart of Covid-19 outbreaks in America, France, and other German regions.

At a press conference, Exner said the air filtration system in the slaughter area had contributed to the spread of aerosol droplets laden with the virus, describing it as a “newly recognised risk factor”.
=====

Sorry, but that is not really a newly recognised risk factor. Newly appreciated, perhaps. Look at items two and three in this article.

This will, of course, potentially be a major factor as pubs and restaurants reopen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 05:01 AM

"further more socialism is not as extreme as communism."
I know and in general I agree with you, but they tended to be somewhat one-sided in the sense that those you missed off the list are among the first to scream "terrorism" as a convenient method of silencing opposition
When that becomes the norm the term itself becomes meaningless - it's a little like using "antisemitism" as a political weapon (as most decent Labour Party members have come to realise
Sorry Dave - I don't think tat's juggling semantics
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Socialism is not extreme.
you quote Stalin,
he was not a socialist
he was a Georgian revolutionary and Soviet politician who led the Soviet Union from the mid-1920s until 1953 as the general secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (1922–1952)
Whether he practised communism or state fascism is debatable ,but he was not a socialist.
it is arguable but some would argue that the USA behaves and has behaved in a terrorist manner, the overthrow of Allendes government was a terrorist and extreme act of violence, it wass extremist to overthrow Allende who was democratically elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:16 AM

They were examples, Jim. Not a definitive list.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 04:03 AM

They are people and organisations you are referring to Dave - you might add a few world leaders to that list - 'Mad Maggie', who described mass murder and torture in Chile as "democracy", or any U.S. leader (there were several) who oversaw the bombing of Vietnam with burning petrol bombs and carcinogenic missiles, while at the same time replacing chosen leaders with puppets like Marshall Ki.....
Dick mentioned philosophies - that's what communism and socailism are
There's nothing wrong with pursuing any just philosophy you its logical conclusion - if it IS just - that's the litmus test
Israel describes its opponents as terrorists yet regularly celebrates the memory of the bombing of The King David Hotel - a classic case of double-think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:33 AM

Extremism is extremism and it is wrong. It is not a word for something we disagree with. It is a word for the excesses of Hitler, Stalin, the Taliban and the Westboro Baptist Church.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:18 AM

"further more socialism is not as extreme as communism."
Socialism is an objective, communism is an objective achieved, neither are "extreme" other than to those who don't want it to happen - that's what the word
"Extremism" is a word now being misused in place of "something I don't agree with" (a little like "terrorism")
Terrorist tactics are fine when used by freedom fighters fighting for 'a just cause' against overwhelming odds or 'opponents of tyranny' - only those they are fighting call it terrorism"
I doubt if anybody can name a country which has fought in a war that hasn't opted fooor "terrorism" when considered necessary
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:39 AM

Read what I said, Dick. Extremism causes problems. You only have to look at the excesses of the extreme left, far right, Islam and Christianity to see that in action.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:38 AM

further more socialism is not as extreme as communism.
as i understood it socialism was supposed to be achieved by democratic means whereas communism has involved violent revolution.
There is also a difderence, not just in the way changes to ownership ofproductiion are realised, but also that under communism, most property and economic resources are owned and controlled by the state (rather than individual citizens); under socialism, all citizens share equally in economic resources as allocated by a democratically-elected government

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

"It's not capitalism per se"
I don't agree
Capitalism is a system based on fostering and encouraging a natural greed that is instinctive in most but is suppressed as people mature
A child will instinctively take what it wants rather than share it, until it is taught differently - capitalism is designed to over-ride that teaching
Opposing capitalism is described, by those who support it as "the politics of envy" - a phrase regularly used on programmes like 'Question Time'

Handy summing up here

Michael White Wed 29 Aug 2012
Nick Clegg … just jealous of the rich?
As Tory MPs go, mild Bernard Jenkin wouldn't claim to be an original phrase-maker. So when confronted with Nick Clegg's call for a wealth tax at breakfast time on Wednesday, Jenkin couldn't manage a snappier retort than to accuse the deputy prime minister of "the politics of envy".
The envious idea of chopping the heads off tall poppies can be traced to Herodotus, though the ancient Greek pundit wrote about decapitating tall stalks of wheat. Poppies, wheat, investment bankers, Richard Branson – the idea is much the same.
Nowadays the charge, revived by an American called Doug Bandow in the 90s, is levelled against the left and invariably deployed by the right. It's not hard to see why. For every bloodthirsty Robespierre there must be a million gentle citizens who regard tax-evading millionaires as ripe for the politics of fairness over those of greed.
So when George Osborne cuts the 50p tax rate to 45p (only the poor need cuts to incentivise them) and faces "millionaire's budget" jibes, he accuses his critics of TPOE. When Barack Obama denounces unfunded Republican tax cuts for the rich (a hard charge to deny), he and his "socialist cronies" are tarred with TPOE.
That sounds more admirable than saying that outsourcing American jobs, rigging the City's Libor network, or flogging worthless securities to pension funds deserves vast pay and perks. If talent, hard work, innovation and risk (with one's own money too) were the only road to uber-wealth, there would be less of a growing 99% to 1% problem.
Let's not take Jenkin's word on TPOE. Let's ask Warren Buffett, a man who made billions investing against the free-market herd. Sure there's class warfare, he says. "It's my class, the rich class, that's making war – and we're winning."

Thatcher spent her career attempting to respectableise greed and, to a degree, she succeed
The 'honours system' in Britain is now loaded towards rewarding the greedy (aka "the successful")
Netnyahu and his wife are openly crooks, and they are getting way with their dishonesty, Theresa may and Johnson have openly used taxpayers money to remain in power - Johnson gave a businesswoman a Government grant to get his leg over.
Trump's corrupt companies have cheated, connived and gone bust with the worst of them.... these are world leaders; the most powerful people on the planet
'The Decline and Fall of the Capitalist System' -s a book begging to be written
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:31 AM

same thing, capitalism encourages greed , unlike christianity as practised by christ or humanitarianism,
    you are entitled to your wrong opinion, Dave; and it is not correct since when has socialism encouraged greed, if this is not what you are saying why bring in a redherring, socialism does not encourage rifts.
    socialism is political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole,
how does that cause rifts, no the rifts are caused by the media who mostly represent the owner class who have a vested interest in dividing people against the community acting together and owning whast they already own,
a genuine criticism of socialism as a poltical philosophy , would be to state that it is dated , because at the time it was written by Marx [the late 19 century] , nobody envisaged that resources were finite. your opinion is half baked twaddle but what is new?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:30 PM

It's not capitalism per se BWM. It's the unfettered greed that causes the type of extremes we are seeing. Extremism in any form, be it capitalist or socialist, causes rifts and problems. Balance, compromise, education and understanding are the tools to fix those rents. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:16 PM

Your right, SRS. But it’s also the power of the Right-Wing media, financed and fuelled by a small group of immensely-rich individuals and their organisations, working on the fears and prejudices of those politically uneducated people you talk about. It’s corruption, pure and simple.

But how to end it is the question. I fear it will get steadily worse - I hope it doesn’t, but I fear it will until, as predicted by Marx, the Capitalist system consumes itself, leading to revolution by the underclass.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:36 PM

Replying to BWM: Along with Netanyahu. He's easily as crooked as Trump, and he's been playing this game forever. There's something about people voting in criminals or the totally unequipped"populist" candidates that is really troubling - it shows that our education system is failing to turn out citizens who understand how civics and government are supposed to work. Those were the classes dropped from the curriculum because they weren't charismatic enough, or the one teacher who covered it finally retired and there was no youngster able or willing to take it on.

My disgruntled riff of the afternoon. At least some of these primary elections in the US are showing the worm turning; talented community organizers are coming into their own. I guess they'll be the ones to teach civics to the entire population. (And if you in the UK ever get a chance to hear congress person Katie Porter at work in a congressional hearing, you're in for a treat.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:29 PM

The government's chief medical adviser has said that a second spike in Covid-19 cases is inevitable if people ignore the conditions that are supposed to apply to the lockdown being relaxed.

Speaking at the final Downing St press conference, Whitty said: 'It is absolutely critical people stick to the guidance that has been given. It's a changed guidance for there are still very significant restrictions socially'
my opinion, based on what i hear from some british people is that there are a number of fools who think it is all over, if that is the case a second wave is inevitable

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM

John Crace, in His Guardian piece, hypothesises that, not only are the opposition fed up with Johnson, but many of his own party-members are too. I wonder what slogan Cummings will dream up to keep the party faithful onside and save Johnson’s sweaty skin?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:42 PM

We're all borised out..

Terminal fatigue and torpor has set in
waiting for him to eff up so badly, he gets sacked and replaced..

This lethal buffoon is one of nature's most dogged survivors...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:09 PM

The problem is, Pete, it’s very difficult to foresee anything good coming from this Government, no matter how long we wait. I really cannot remember a less competent, more corrupt bunch ever.

Perhaps some of the Tory supporters on the forum can give us some predictions of some of the great things we will see over the life of the government. Or even just a few. And I’m asking for something more concrete than ‘Get Brexit Done’.

I’m not holding my breath though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 12:40 PM

yes, it's weird - this thread is just sort of limping along when the political scene is crazier and more volatile than ever. maybe we could just accept that all is up in the air and turn our discussion to where we may hope to be in - say- a year's time. i'm interested in any positive developments that maybe to come. just banging on about self-evident truths about our awful government isn't really any good for any of us.
however, i'm always up for a bit of thread drift, nonsense, light-heartedness and humour.

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:43 AM

Good point, DMcG. Can’t argue with that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 04:32 AM

Perhaps, Backswoodsman, but I would not close it. Just let it fall into the depths, and then if something worth discussing happens we can resume posting to it.

Plenty of notable things are happening, of course, both on the virus and Brexit, but most are being reported elsewhere. I only see a point in posting here if either I have something specific to say or would like to hear other peoples viewpoints.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:55 AM

I’m beginning to think this particular thread has run its course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

twice in recent years i've had painful toothache while in glasgow and received immediate emergency treatment that they wouldn't take any money for. so - go up there! oh sorry, we can't go yet....in itself a major source of pain for some.

as we have learned to mistrust anything that the english government says i won't be rushing back to the pub or anywhere inside for a while. and i'll wait for nicola to advise me on when i can get back up there and see my daughter, friends, central station, botanic gardens, kelvingrove art gallery , tennents bar and the wee curry shop. that'll be great until i can get back to watching partick thistle again - though for a couple of years now that has been the most disappointing part of my trips. we have been shit for 2 years.

apologies - i thought i was on the dentistry/what do you want to do after lockdown/aren't the governments eejits thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 01:05 AM

I'm still staying in the house, unless I have no choice to go out for some purpose..

But that's been my lifestyle of choice for years..

My concern, is I need to see a dentist asap for a probable tooth extraction,
that's been delayed by the clinic
since they let me down over a last minute cancelled appt in January..

Then they cancelled the rescheduled appt due to lockdown..


oh well... let's see if they answer the phones now...

Toothache is a bastard, so it's a weigh up between either risking sepsis, or covid...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:54 AM

No, after a while you would expect it to have settled to the floor (or other surfaces).
That is partially true - I didn't want to get into the subtleties of it too much.   You would certainly expect a non-uniform gradient of some kind on the vertical axis and indeed a lot of the virus will settle on surfaces. But it can also settle on dust, for example, and hence remain airborne for long periods, becoming airborne again any time the dust is disturbed.

As I suggested, enclosed spaces are complicated. It would not be uniform horizontally either, because furniture, electrostatic effects, positions of doors and windows and many other factors will all affect things.

The best rule of thumb model I can come up with - and I do not claim anything epidemiological studies behind this, just what 'textbook physics' might suggest! - is a background level plus an inverse square of distance contribution. If the background level is dominant, the inverse square term might be small enough to ignore; conversely if the level is very low, as it typically is in open spaces, only the distance really matters. But the background level varies continuously - each room will be different - and if, for example, to enter a open space you need to pass through a gate, that gate becomes an environmental hotspot.


The point of this ramble is to consider whether I would be happy moving to a one metre separation from a 2 metre one. And the inverse square component suggests to me that the time to do so is when the number of infected people is around a quarter of the level it was when the two metre rule was introduced, because that is, roughly speaking, an equal risk.

Anyone else is welcome to come up with a criteria of their own choosing when they will be happy with a closer distance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:40 AM

Whether or not Nigel is right (and I tend to agree with him - I seem to recall that explanation being given by some ‘expert’ on TV when distancing was first introduced) I will continue to try to maintain a 2-metre distance at all times. Where that may not be possible - e.g. when I’m shopping for myself and my wife’s octogenarian parents - I wear a face-covering and disposable nitrile gloves, and I’ll continue to do so into the foreseeable future.

Better safe than sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:20 AM

In a confined space the calculations are really complicated, but after a while you would expect the virus to be roughly evenly distributed around the space, and so 2 metre or 1 metres does not really make a difference. Until the uniform distribution is reached, it will be some blend of the two situations.
No, after a while you would expect it to have settled to the floor (or other surfaces). The one/two metre zone is to allow the 'droplets' to sink below face level. The virus does not get a uniform distribution in the air. (as I have understood the science presented so far). This is why there is a greater risk standing face to face, rather than behind or to the side of someone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 08:09 AM

Jeremy Corbyn's brother has been arrested for breachuing lockdown rules by attending a demonstration
Wonder if he'll be sharing a holding cell with Dom and Dummer Scummings - no bets taken
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:29 AM

There is lots of talk of reducing the 2-metre rule to 1-metre. It seems to me that in an open area and ignoring the effects of wind, the risk from a given amount of virus will follow an inverse square law: 2 metres is 4 times safer than 1 metre. However the risk is equivalent if the source of infection is four times lower.   So I am comfortable with a 1 metre rule when the number of people in the population infected is around one-quarter of what it was when the 2 metre rule was introduced.

In a confined space the calculations are really complicated, but after a while you would expect the virus to be roughly evenly distributed around the space, and so 2 metre or 1 metres does not really make a difference. Until the uniform distribution is reached, it will be some blend of the two situations.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM

Katie Hopkins permanently removed from Twitter
Not that I'd heard of her, but from what I now read it's probably the right move.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM

YouGov survey: 80% reject chlorinated chicken and similar

I emailed my MP about this, and here is my question and his response. It is a follow up to an earlier email:


I am afraid it does not address my question, which I summarise below:
If the government proposes a trade deal which in any way reduces the manifesto commitment to protect the food standards, will you vote against the government to maintain that commitment you made?
=======
His response?
Thank you. You don’t need to tell me to be aware. I know how elections work. I do what I do, explain my reasons and you choose one of the candidates.
=======
Anyone think he will try to protect food standards then?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM

"(don't tell the yanks)"
Don't tell the profiteers either
The Medicine Industry is a prime target for nationalisation - that would sort out some of the major problems of the NHS overnight
On of the most ludicrous things to emerge from the present crisis was that The Tobacco Industry were scrambling to find a cure - not exactly known for its altruism
Jim