BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:36 AM

Maybe the guidance for meeting parents could be similar to the guidance given on a sign seen in 1974 in the pub in Broadford, Isle of Skye: "Credit is available for people over 90 as long as they are accompanied by both parents."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 08:07 AM

Another change of mind
Those in essential (to business) work who can't work from home have been reprieved until Wednesday but have been told to avoid using public transport - glad I don't live in London any more
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Londoners, thinking today was when they should go back to work, have piled onto tubes and buses
It will be all their fault when the virus count rises - of course !!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:11 AM

I am told today's press conference is being replaced by a Question and Answer session. Whether this is just today or the future plan is not clear.

The press conferences did not throw much light on things, certainly after the first few, but they did show some. I hope they will continue to make the slides available to the public, whether they show them at the meeting or not. For all their many limitations, they are the most solid of the information we get.   The figures for transport over the next few days will be informative, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:14 AM

Government offical document: Our Plan to Rebuild

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:26 PM

It is not hyperbole to suggest there are tory free market ideologue zealots,
who still have as little regard for the lives of workers
as their Victorian forbears..

They still write us off as cheap disposable and easily replaced navvies and coolies...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:32 PM

"forebears"...

If google had voice transcribed as "4 bears"..
at least I'd have noticed that before posting...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 04:26 AM

What the ruling party supporters think of relaxing lockdown.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/05/our-snap-survey-over-half-of-our-tory-member-panel-backs-johnsons-plan-a-t

Looks like Boris deserves a big pst on the back for getting it just right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:13 AM

I clicked on that link you posted Iains:

Article Not Found
We can't find what you were looking for.

Seems in keeping with the last couple of days communication (or lack of communication) from the government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:15 AM

Looks like they changed their mind pretty quicky ARTICLE NOT FOUND
What else is nodding dog conservative site going to say except Our Fuherer is doing a great job?
Nobody know whether to go to work yesterday or Wednesday - they were told not to use public transport yet the tubes where the usual wheeled sardine cans - it's still not safe to congregate and won't be until the experts say it is and Johnson is allowing employers damand their workers return to work is they see fit
Only a moron with , a chauffeur, no family and a death wish would describe that nonsense as "a great job" - it's lethal madness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:21 AM

Try this:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/05/our-snap-survey-over-half-of-our-tory-member-panel-backs-johnsons-plan-a-third-want-a-sweden-style-looser-lockdown.html
There is no point in winning a war on lockdown and subsequently losing a war on want. The branches on the magic money tree are fast depleting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:34 AM

From your link Iains:

"Yes, the launch of this new phase was very messy. Yes, there are lots of unanswered questions about the policy that should be answered. And, yes, the process of putting it together has been, ConHome hears, shambolic.
But that could doubtless have been said about much of government planning during World War Two. Our sense is that most voters understand that point very well."

Their sense and my sense are not the same. I imagine that even you have to agree that the last couple of days have been handled very badly by the government. They needed to be clearer and they should have been clearer. Let us hope that they get their act together quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:46 AM

I think there is a problem with the 'blue clicky' mechanism that it cannot cope with very long links; as in Iains example it truncates the link part way through and you get "page not found". Then your reader is left with searching through the site to see if they can find what you meant ... which is what I did.

This was a survey of 1300 or so Conservative party members. Hardly an unbiased sample, as Iains acknowledged. It is not even demonstrably representative of regular party voters, never mind of those who voted Conservative in the last election. So the value of the survey is at best questionable.

There is a lot of talk about driving the decisions to slacken off lockdown based on the R_value. I must admit to a nervousness about the way this is being bandied around.   There is not really any such thing. There is a single R value that is fed into fairly primitive models, but I would hope the actual models are more refined than that and recognise that you need a granular approach. Just thinking about where I live the R-value (for Southampton) is not the same as the R-value (for Hampshire), or the R-value (for South East England) or the R value (for England) or the R-value (for the UK). The R-value for Bude is not the same as for Southampton. The R value for England is not the same as Wales or Scotland.   The R-value for care homes is not the same as for hospitals, or for the general population. Moreover, the closer you are to 1, the more these distinctions matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:51 AM

Raindog These are unprecedented times. The situation is fluid, hardly surprising everyone is not instantly on the same page. It does not help that the media and opposition are using every trick in the book to muddy the message. Absolutely disgusting behavior that will be given pride of place in the next election campaign. Luckily the electorate is not stupid and Labor will pay for their sins with an even greater drubbing come the next election. The longer lockdown goes on the greater the longterm damage to the economy. Being a third world country is not pleasant. Be careful what you wish for.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:02 AM

They needed to be clearer and they should have been clearer.

And, as Keir Starmer pointed out on Monday, they could very easily have been clearer simply by releasing the documents at the same time they made the announcements, rather than having them dribble out over the next few days. That was quite within their control, and they decided not to do so, for whatever reason.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:20 AM

Iains I agree about the need to start making plans and have said so previously. At no time have I expressed a wish for the Uk to become a third world country.

Come the next election what will the electorate remember? Well that will probably be another 4 years or so but I imagine they will not remember what people said or didn't say. It is more likely they will remember the loss of lives, the lockdown, the possible loss of jobs, the closure of schools etc etc. Now if they wish to blame anyone for that, I think they might look at those in charge, even if those in charge are not responsible for everything that happens.

DMcG, indeed it was handled very badly. We can only speculate as to the reason why. It does remind of the documentary, I think it was on the BBC, about the Foreign Office when Boris was in charge. There is that element of ' a bull in a china shop' about him at times.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:36 AM

The government tries nightly to befuddle the country with daft little pseudo-technical graphs ("next slide please...") in nice colours, the sort of thing I'd have been shot down for by my science tutors at teacher training college, and vacuous talk of an R number, bouncing up and down its scale like those strong-man things that you hit with a hammer on fairgrounds, as if it's just a sweeping single country-wide thing (as DMcG so ably demolishes). These things are attempts to put a respectable face on gross incompetence. Any day now we'll have Johnson imploring us to "get R done," you'll see. It's disconcerting to see the highly-respectable Chris Whitty squirming unhappily. One day I'll buy his memoirs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:47 AM

"losing a war on want."
If Tories the in slightest cared about want they'd have done something about the hardship and poverty they and their predecessors have created - far from your being concerned about it, you have always put the interests of private property way above those of the needy - I'm sure nobody here how you denigrated a politician with a conscience for suggesting that survivors of a horendous fire, caused by profiteers cutting safety corners, might be housed in some of the many unused vacant properties in the immediate vicinity of that fire - you used it to make the suggestion that thet politician was unfit for public office
That's what Toryism has always been about
Don't you mean "profit" - which is what this step to soon is
Even Boris the Brainless opposed the pressures of big business now hey have won and he hasn't got a fecking clue where to go
Just go and dig up the news of yesterday's chaos for an example of Government policy
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/boris-johnson-london-transport-back-to-work-coronavirus-lockdown-a4436836.html
MORE GOOD WORK
Maybe the Tories should confine themselves to runningg piss-ups in breweries - chaos isn't that important when you're pissed
Good job my arseum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:48 AM

“When the business of government becomes limited to populist set pieces, its ranks are purged of doers and populated instead with cheerleaders. This is how we ended up with the current cast of dazed-in-headlights Tory cabinet members.“

A very telling piece from Nesrine Malik in the Guardian - a publication refusing to lie down in the face of the horse-shit of Populism and Right-Wing Extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:51 AM

Dunno even about that, Jim. Mr Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery (which God preserve) was on the radio this morning, and it sounded like he wouldn't want a Tory anywhere near his brewery...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:44 AM

The opposition, who we are told is useless and has no power whatsoever, is now able to cloud the issue with the help of the media, who made such a good job of demolishing that same opposition before.

Funny old world init. Do those putting these tales about really think that we cannot remember back to pre virus days?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:49 AM

There are reports of police stopping people on Southampton Common distributing flyers for a protest meeting about lockdown. I have been sent a copy of the purported poster, but of course the police cannot publish it directly without promoting the event (if it is even genuine and not a figment of the flyposters imagination.)

For what it is worth it is the full of the antivax, 5G and other conspiracies. If I get more evidence it is genuine I will post a version with dates and locations redacted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 07:59 AM

Hampshire Police have posted about it on their facebook page. However they have given the date and time which seems a bit stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 08:08 AM

Hampshire Police summary

I have been a bit hard on them: they give the date and general location but that is all.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 08:25 AM

The opposition, who we are told is useless and has no power whatsoever, is now able to cloud the issue with the help of the media.

Precisely. Your argument is hinged on help. On their own they are absolutely useless. That is why they lost the election. Now that was a time when the opposition message was confused.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 08:34 AM

So the opposition is completely useless, ineffectual, totally sidelined, consigned to history, utterly confused, permanently trashed, unelectable for generations. If they really are as bad as all that, am I out of order in thinking that any member of the far right who shows a weird and sustained obsession with them must be, er, slightly mad...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 May 20 - 09:28 AM

sadly, that has been clear for quite a long time, steve

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 12 May 20 - 09:39 AM

It's a jungle out there
People sowin confusion everywhere
No one one seems to care, well I do HEY
who's in charge here?

It's a jungle out there
Poison in the very air we breathe
You know whats in the water that you drink
Well I do, its ..so.. crazy
People think I'm crazy that I worry all the time
If you paid attention you'd be worried too
You better pay attention or this world we love so much

Might.. Just.. Kill You

I could be wrong now......But I don't think so

Cuz there's a jungle out there
It's a jungle out there


Randy Newman

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 09:49 AM

A half decent opposition was doomed to failure from the point that Corbyn attracked the rabid hatred of the right-wing press and combined with 'New Labour dross and a little assistance from Israel, managed to paint a picture of an inept party which had abandoned its former internationalist principles
The youngsters weren't fooled and flocked to the party - most of them remain
The latest leader chances of filling in Corbyn's giant shoes is indicated by the fact that our resident right-wing M.Ms are treating him like a long lost brother
It will be interesting to see the reaction of the public after the fiaso of Brexit and the continuing fiasco that. rather than fighting the pandemic, stands to turn it into a killing field
And then will come the recession where everybody but the rich will be told they have to tighten their belts
You may be able to foll some of the people some of the time, but there is a limit on how far this dangerously crass bunch can continue to lie and con

Now we will be told by someone who hates the British Press, hates the British judiciary system, thinks the British Police are bias and corrupt and despises the slightly less than half who voted to stay in Europe that it's "Anglo-phobic' to criticise the clowns
Let's see if he can get his other mask on in time :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 10:48 AM

Steve - let's not waste time expecting logic and consistency
from fanatical propagandists,
whose prime directive is to win by any means;
no matter how unfair or foul...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 11:19 AM

In other words, paraphrasing Machiavelli,
(a notable earliest tory party adviser..)

"The bellends justify the meanies"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 20 - 11:37 AM

A half decent opposition was doomed to failure from the point that Corbyn attracked the rabid hatred of the right-wing press

That can't be right, Jim. After all, if the press hate the left wing, why would they be helping them to cause confusion now? Surely that nice fluffy Mr Johnson and his supporters can't be looking for a scape goat can they? Not that they have done any wrong of course... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:03 PM

I wasn't remotely expecting logic and consisistency, pfr. I hate to be perennially and terminally disappointed...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:27 PM

I hate to be perennially and terminally disappointed...

Yet constantly you support Labour and rail against brexit ???????????.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:30 PM

My mrs has a similar arguing style to the tories..

She'll never admit she's wrong - saying the first thing that comes into her head,
to deflect, deny, distract, and shift all blame to me..

Then she sulkily play the victim, still trying to get my sympathy, and her own way..

If that don't work, she'll carry on sulking just to punish me for daring to point out
she was in the wrong in the first place...

I've had nearly 40 years experience dealing with this,
which has helped make me such a perceptive judge of tory tactics...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 12:40 PM

"Yet constantly you support Labour"

As crap and disappointing as Labour can be at their worst, there's still no better alternative...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:14 PM

As crap and disappointing as Labour can be at their worst, there's still no better alternative...

Yeah! That why the Labour labelled "deplorable, stupid, racist" majority put the tories in government and labour are the governed.
Its a tough world outside the bubble.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:26 PM

Be honest.. tories need the majority to be stupid, and a bit racist, useful idiots
to grasp and maintain power...

You right wingers depend on populist media like the Mail
to do your dirty work,
in creating the cultural conditions to keep their readership as stupid and racist as possible...

But of course you would flatteringly / cynically call them all "smart voters"
to achieve your ends of political domination...

.. you can't fool us....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:27 PM

I just received an email which brilliantly shows just how irrational the government thinking is.

A friend is a primary school teacher. The government wants her to take on a class of 15 four year olds. BUT she is being told she cannot see her own grandchildren of the same age.

Now perhaps someone on the right here could explain that because I'm damned if I can see the logic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:38 PM

My wife is a reception/year 1 teacher.. she's nearly 60..

and the tories will deliberately put her in harms way with no PPE...

At no point has any tory minister, or adviser,
even mentioned only deploying younger more virus resistant teachers from June 1st...???

Appallingly fukwitted callous murderous tory govt planning...

Yet the teachers unions will be demonised by the right for daring to advocate protecting school staff...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:40 PM

I said I would post a redacted form of the poster being given out in Southampton once I knew it was genuine.

The similarity to the sections of the US protesting lockdown is remarkable.

As to your logic question Raggytash: it can't be explained because there is none. That is not being abusive or snide, it is literally the case. The idea is to do what they think will statistically give the desired result (whether it will or not is another matter). Within all those people, there will be some where what is being asked for is logically absurd, but that doesn't matter, statistically speaking, because such oddities are part of the stats.

When you look at real people with real lives, of course, it matters greatly to them, but when you just look at, say, one million people as a whole, they get lost in the numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:51 PM

Raggy - since the rapid dominance of global social media,
the Alt Right propagandist influencers are targeting the UK as a quasi US state...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 01:54 PM

apologies - that post should have been addressed to DMcG ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:37 PM

Be honest.. tories need the majority to be stupid, and a bit racist, useful idiots
to grasp and maintain power...
I guess that guarantees a further sojourn in the wilderness. Some just never learn!

meanwhile back to reality.
An interesting article on Covid-19 with some educational tables that make the case for relaxing lockdown for all but the vulnerable, and getting most people back to work.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2020/04/09/adjusting-covid-19-expectations-to-the-age-profile-of-deaths/
The figures used are raw. There are differences in what is recorded and the way it is recorded, both over   time annd bbbetween coutries. To take the raw figures the risk increases with age. For the middle aged there is no way of determining co-morbidities such as obesity, diabetes, COPD, etc. They obviously exist and impact the figures, but the detail is not there to assign numerical values. It is likely the true morbidity for younger age groups is actually lower than shown for fit people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:52 PM

deflect, deny, distract, and shift all blame...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:56 PM

deflect, deny, distract, and shift all blame...
Is that a Labour party political Broadcast?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 May 20 - 04:01 PM

I suppose that they would pay the piper calls the tune, perhaps this is the reason that the Equalities Watchdog Commission has taken the decision not be investigate the Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.


Link

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:23 AM

" Islamophobia that is rampant within the Conservative Party.
Rather puts paid to the shite about the Tories worrying about racial and ethnic discrimination once and for all, I think
The Tory Party is the breeding ground of racial and ethnic discrimination - it always was and always will by
The Conservative 'Right Club' ser up prior to W.W.2. set up by Conservative Archibald Ramsey to 'crush the Jewish menace', campaigned into the war and organised a provisional government for "when Herr Hitler won his rightful fight against this threat"   
Ramsey and others were imprisoned during the war, but later returned to Parliament and continued to campaign against the Jews, despite six million of them having been exterminated by his preferred leader
HIS LEGACY CONTINUES UP TO THE PRESENT DAY
AS DO ITS NEAR RELATIVES
AND ANOTHER
There have never been enquirers into any of these atrocities and there never will be, which rather puts the virulent and continuing attacks an Labour so-called "anti-semitism" into context
Even if a fraction of it had any basis (until it can be proved that Lambour members attack the Jewish People , it never will have) it measures minutely next to Tories race-hating giant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:39 AM

I've been told often enough - while we respond to this feller he's gonna keep ignoring it so we may as well use him to put his party where it belongs
It's not often you are handed a 'live-'un' as an on-the-spot example to illustrate what you mean
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 May 20 - 03:41 AM

Statistics Save Lives

A performance can be found on https://www.wiltshirecreative.co.uk/whats-on/wiltshire-creative-connects/louise-jordan

Used properly, she - and Florence Nightingale who inspired this song - are quite right. Used properly, science and maths can save lives. But unfortunately, of course, they can also be abused. If you lose sight of the fact that a mathematical model is a model and not reality, you can end up costing lives very easily.   It is important to recognise, for example, that society is not partitioned, or easily partitionable, by age, in the workplace or in the home. A lot of homes, for example, are mixed across several generations.