BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM

Just a thought about statues.

I wonder how many people could name all the statues in their own town and I wonder just how much of the history of the individuals they know.

Personally I know next to bugger all about the statues in the towns I have lived in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM

ABCD - it's simple enough to understand, the white hot spotlight is on race right now...

Which more than deserves it's turn on the justice bandwagon

Last year it was trans issues,..

The year before.. well.. I forget which one..

Obviously, as a lefty, I'd be happier if the class struggle wasn't constantly being fragmented
into competing media PR promoted higher priority lobbying issues..

But unfortunately, life's a bit shite like that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 11:18 AM

As I've written elsewhere, a statue of the Duke of Sutherland, perched high on a massive pedestal itself set on a hill, has been dominating the town of Dornoch, Scottish Highlands, since the mid nineteenth century; his role in what are familiarly known as "The Highland Clearances" should place that statue squarely among the list now being virtuously compiled. Scottish people who still have the knowledge of that part of their country's history have long called for its removal; for the most part, these efforts have been reasoned and legal - and consistently rebuffed - and none of the attempts at more direct action has yet been successful.Well, it's a colossal lump of stuff. I'd say that efforts to remove this reminder that some are born to own the land, the rest of us to work it, have been made for even longer than, for example, the First Nations peoples of North America have been trying to secure better lives for themselves and their families. While in Britain attention is now being widely drawn to such reminders of oppression and exploitation, and in some cases of who and which group still holds the whip-hand, it does seem that a disturbing agenda has become fashionable, that is, to decry any reminder of oppression which is not solely focused on Slavery and on the Slave Trade. Strange, but then, as politicians have known for longer still, an enthusiastic mob with loud enough voices and low enough intellects can be led by their collective noses, as asses are. Keep the pot boiling, reward the right journalists, and soon enough that mob will be insisting that two and two make five if they're told to do so (or any other absurdity chosen), and howl down anyone who dares question the latest orthodoxy cast before "the swinish multitude".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 09:35 AM

"I worry about making that thread, spurred by the murder of George Floyd, too anglocentric. I suppose my post belongs more here."

threads might tend to become a tad anglocentric
while our yank buddies are tucked up asleep in their warm cosy beds,
and we are wide awake..

and .. then vice versa...

Time zones are unfortunately one of the practical inconveniences of not being flat earthers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 08:42 AM

Say WHAT ???

Donald Trump’s Scottish golf courses are expected to get a tax rebate of nearly £1m as part of a government bailout for tourism businesses hit by the coronavirus crisis, the Guardian can reveal.

The Trump Organization’s golf resorts in Aberdeenshire and Turnberry will benefit from emergency funding from the Scottish government worth £2.3bn, which includes waiving the property taxes paid by hospitality, leisure and retail businesses this year.

Guardian 10 Jun 20

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

"Churchill because of his role in WW2."
It needs to be remembered who these people were and what they stood for - all this individuals may have done some good but - as someone once said, "The evil that man do live after them" as well
The Churchill statue has been daubed with paint by the Welsh before now by people who remember his part in the 'Tonypandy Massacre'
I wasn't being serious about his statue - I was a wartime baby and have reason to be grateful to his role in WWI", but even so, as someone passionately committed to anti-fascism, I find it difficult to forget his support for the philosophy of supporting Hitler's Germany as "a bulwark against the creeping menace of Bolshevism"   
I regard Churchill's wartime contribution as reparation for helping support the rise of Nazism in the first place
These things are complicated - I'm sure you'll find statues to Leopold in Belgium - the imperial rubber entrepreneur who sent ten million Congolese to their deaths in pursuit of profit and had the hands removed of millions of workers who didn't meet their quota
Personally - I wouldn't remove these statues - I would turn them into displays of their inhumanity by surrounding them with effigies of their victims in chains, or being flogged, or sold.... that would tell it as it was
When it comes to what is happening at present, it is fully understandable when Blacks fighting for their place in the sun wish to remove statues honouring those who helped start the injustices they are trying to end
Would you be happy to see a statue of Mussolini outside the Italian Embassy in London, put there because "he made the Italian trains run on time?"
I was interested to read in The Times this morning the list of Statues and Monuments being 'looked at' or their past 'contributions to mankind

Drake - pioneer of te Slave Trade
Thomas Picton, Governor of Trinidad, for the brutality his administration meted out
Cecil Rhodes - self explanatory
Lord Kitchener - for introducing concentrations camps to the world
Gladstone for his support of Slave owners
Robert Peel for his opposition to the abolition bill
Robert Dundas for delaying that bill

I have little doubt that that list will grow and grow - like Topsy
We live in a society that honours greed and ruthlessness - some of us would like that to end - we have to start somewhere

I'm not Irish but I'd happily give one of my kidneys to see a statue of Sir Charles Trevelyan standing on the heap of the victims of the Irish Famine victims he brought about through his solution to 'The Irish Question'   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

I see that both the health and education secretaries are twisting the scientific advice excuses they have used for the last three months. The R rate is no longer important. 2 metres doesn't really mean 6' 6". What a shower. Just you watch, Covid-19 is about to be renamed cudley kitten syndrome and Boris has been instrumental in saving the galaxy while battling the evil European empire. And the idiots who believe the three word spin will continue to fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:36 AM

I posted this in response to Bonzo in the Black Lives Matter thread. I worry about making that thread, spurred by the murder of George Floyd, too anglocentric. I suppose my post belongs more here.

" Here's the thing about statues, Bonzo. The people who are represented by statues in public places are people who we are supposed to celebrate, who are supposed to have achieved great things. But the people who decide who's worthy of the accolade are generally the establishment. So the statues are put up, often with a little plaque telling us of the great achievements. Any plaque accompanying any statue of Churchill will say what a great war leader he was. What it won't tell us is that he was also a racist, a little Englander and an arch-misogynist who was responsible for the Dardanelles fiasco that killed tens of thousands of our young men (including my great uncle Jimmy, so call me biased). The statue of Colston in Bristol had four plaques depicting various heroic scenes, but one of them bore the words "Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city". Well he founded schools and almshouses and was generally a fine philanthropist (so was Jimmy Savile, I should like to remind you). What the plaque doesn't tell you was that he made his money to pay for those things via his slaving company, an enterprise that enslaved at least 100,000 people into misery and killed around 20,000 of them who were unceremoniously pitched overboard when they died. For years there has been argument in Bristol as to how the plaque should be reworded, but nothing has happened. There has also been a petition signed by tens of thousands to have the statue removed. No response to that either. Frustrating, innit.

So to those people who bleat that tearing down statues is destroying history, etc., I'd say that real history is a damn sight more honest than those statues which are essentially saying that the good that men do lives after them but the evil is oft interred with their bones. You'd take your child out of any school that proudly insisted on teaching history in that extremely partial way. It's a thoroughly disingenuous claim propagated by mostly people on the right. I've repeatedly asked about what you thought of Saddam's statue being torn down. I wonder what you might have thought if those huge street portraits of Mao or Stalin, confronting you round every corner, had been vandalised or torn down by protesters. They would have needed to be a damn sight braver than the Bristol protesters. And that's something to contemplate as well."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:12 AM

The problem with any statue - Colston, Rhodes, Churchill, Harris, or pretty much anyone at all - is that the statue is almost invariably idolising one aspect of their lives and ignoring all the rest. So there is good reason to have a statue of Churchill because of his role in WW2. But if you do, you should expect the Irish to remember the Black and Tans, the Australians Gallipoli, women his opposition to women's votes, India his role in partition, and so on. And it is right that you should learn these views are as valid as your own.

What the best response is will vary depending on the situation, but I find plaques and museums generally better than simply removing the references. In the case of the concert hall, for example, I would prefer a notice inside explaining the previous name and why it was changed, rather than just changing it. If it is not a problem for shipping, I would see little harm leaving Colston's statue where it is and adding a plaque telling the whole story, including Floyd and the events leading up to the removal of the statue. 'In the water adjacent to this plaque is a statue of ... "

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:36 AM

Great to see that racist looter Cecil Rhodes is due for the chop in Oxford - who next THAT HIDEOUS MONSTROSITY IN WESTMINSTER MAYBE ?
CAN'T SEE WHY NOT, THE WAY HE TREATED THE COLONIALS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM

The colston statue appalling vandalism thing...

If Banksy had staged the toppling and river dumping as a cheeky theatrical performance art event..

The tory press would be fawning all over it,
and estimating how many millions the rubbished statue would be worth at fine art auction...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:19 AM

The Government has announced that it has changed its mind and is cancelling the plan to let children return to school
A slight improvement on "Monday - whoops I meant Wednesday" I supposed
Must make a list of breweries not to go to piss-ups in !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:10 AM

Clever analogy from Raggytash, which set me thinking; some time back, hardly a week went by without the State Organ, BBC, reporting that a plot or two, planned by some Terrorist organisation or another, had been foiled by some official body or other just in the nick of time. All these nefarious types we've been reminded of so incessantly have been remarkably quiet over the last year, it seems; curious, since a time of confusion and distraction would seem to offer various advantages to law-breakers of all kinds.
Just for Americans, that might be Satire. Or maybe not....

ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:48 AM

Watching Nigel the Bellydancing Nitpicker, wriggling and writhing in a desperate, and completely failed, attempt to (as usual for a Tory) defend the indefensible is even funnier than the Newsthump piece itself. Best laugh I’ve had for ages, made even better by its coming from a Tory Stooge.

The incident was documented, reported, the tape was played on TV and radio and, even better, The Bellydancing Nitpicker can listen to it here.

Bollocks? BOLLOCKS? WTF? And what a lovely bunch of people you pimp for, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:26 AM

that was a strange wee episode. when asked for proof that Boris Johnson and friend had the intention to attack a journalist and then that proof was supplied - that wasn't accepted. even when johnson admitted it and complained that he was stitched up. really? what more evidence do you require? and his whole attitude there is revealing in itself - with all the evidence of lying, evasivness and entitlement that we have come so familiar with.

surely anyone who may have voted for him or his party can now accept that you have a thoroughly disreputable and clueless eejit for a leader. or failing that - he's just a wrong 'un. i'd have thought that maybe conservative party supporters would be quietly looking to replace as soon as they can, for the good of the party if nothing else.

it's just sad for you and tragic for the rest of us that you have kicked out any MP who made sense and at least pretended to have the interests of the country at heart

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM

"On Jim's story, from The Times:"
I'm grateful for the added information Nigel, but it hardly addresses the question
Your party came to power with the help of a donation from a criminal whose scam cost him £15m to get clear of
I realise that Britain is being defrauded by many such scammers but are the British people deserving of a Government who comes to power with the aid of dirty money defrauded from the N.H.S. ?
I wouldn't have thought so, but I don't live there any more
It's rather like the obvious Brexit fraudster who was let off the hook because there was 'not enough evidence to make it worthwhile pursuing the case'
There's a good old saying that has to apply to politicians - "Justice has to be seen to be done" otherwise those "not proven" can never be trusted
That's the way politics used to work
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:09 AM

As for "inventing quotes," it's what satirical websites such as Newsthump and Daily Mash do all the time. It's what Steve Bell does in his Guardian cartoons. We're supposed to read them in the knowledge that the kernel of the story is true but the surrounding embellishments are satirical - but also, possibly, instructive. We're not really meant to read them in Mr Spock mode.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

Meanwhile, back at the press conferences: no scientists present on Friday, none last night. Anyone care to place a bet for this evening?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

I duplicated your wiki piece, DMcG. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

"The address was never given, and no attack happened. The Newsthump 'article' is a waste of space, and a waste of all our time."

I am a tad surprised by your approach here Nigel.

It someone were to have a similar conversation about a terrorist attack but that attack never took place are you suggesting we should ignore that conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM

It is worth listening to that "Have I got News for You" clip linked to below. It is notable that Johnson does not say he didn't give the address because it would have been wrong to do so, or that he felt it would risk an illegal action. The only reason he gives for not passing the address over was his incompetence as a journalist so he didn't know the address.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM

Wiki: "During a telephone call in 1990, Guppy asked Boris Johnson (then a journalist at The Telegraph) to provide the home address of News of the World journalist Stuart Collier. Collier had been making enquiries into Guppy's background, and in response, Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995."

And on the Guardian website (article by Simon Murphy, 14 July 2019, "A couple of black eyes..." Note the existence of a thoroughly incriminating transcript of a phone call between Guppy and Johnson, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM
Er, the story is true, Nigel.

The story may be based on some facts, but inventing a quote, which may or may not reflect what was said at the time does not make the story 'true'.
Even according to DMcG's quote of Wiki: Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995.
The address was never given, and no attack happened. The Newsthump 'article' is a waste of space, and a waste of all our time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:21 AM

Boris Johnson on Have I got news for you, talking about his chat with Darius

Boris and the Elephant Trap

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:16 AM

On Jim's story, from The Times:
The Conservative Party accepted a £50,000 donation from a pharmaceutical boss involved in price gouging the NHS, The Times can report.
Amit Patel, who accepted a five-year ban last week from standing as a director for breaking competition law, donated the money during the June 2017 general election campaign led by Theresa May. The donation was made a year after The Times named Auden Mckenzie, the company Mr Patel had founded, as being among several businesses that had hugely increased the prices of old drugs.
The companies had been able to do so by exploiting a loophole in NHS pricing rules that meant drugs were no longer subject to a profit cap if they were “debranded” and sold under a generic name.

This form of price-gouging is common, and a last chance for the drug companies to make money from their drug research.
The drugs had been 'debranded' which means that their patents had expired. A more savvy government, or competitor business, could have 'reverse engineered' the drugs and competed on price, saving the NHS a large sum. If you're the sole provider of a specific drug then you have a monopoly. Once the drug is a 'generic' then the action of the free market comes into play, and the business that can provide a (suitably tested) version of the same drug at a better price will become the main supplier.

For a fuller treatment of this scam see Prescriber

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM

prove it

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:13 AM

According to Wikipedia: During a telephone call in 1990, Guppy asked Boris Johnson (then a journalist at The Telegraph) to provide the home address of News of the World journalist Stuart Collier. Collier had been making enquiries into Guppy's background, and in response, Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995.

There are certainly lots of references to the story in the papers from that time. I am confident if you searched long and hard enough we would someone somewhere has transcribed the exact words Johnson used.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM

Er, the story is true, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

And before any nitpickers are tempted to wade in, I know it’s not a ‘real’ news site, but it makes a valid point, in a humorous way, that a big, fat, blustering, clueless buffoon in a glasshouse shouldn’t throw stones. It’s called ‘satire’.

No, it's not satire. It's bollocks.
So called 'satirical' sites can say what they want, and claim it's 'satire'. It doesn't need to contain a shred of truth. I selected a small part of the Johnson 'quote': Well, except when you're using it to put the frighteners on a journalist who is investigating things you don't want them to and put it into Google. Surprise surprise, the only 'hit' I got was the Newsthump article itself. If they are going to back up any comments they make by using invented quotes then they are not worth linking to or quoting. Unless by someone who is easily fooled.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:01 AM

The Tory Times reports this morning that The Tory Party knowingly accepted a £50,000 election donation from a pharmaceutical tax fraudster who ripped off the NHS for at least £14m (it cost him £15m to settle the case)
Basically, the last Government came to power at the expense of sick Britons who wre given Theresa May as a receipt.
It's comforting to know that the Briish people have Parliamentary Democracy to keep them warm on cold nights - innit?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:15 AM

That's "satire"? Well, maybe to an American readership.
That's not just a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:46 AM

‘News thump’, making clear Johnson’s hypocrisy when he criticises the use of violence to achieve an aim.

And before any nitpickers are tempted to wade in, I know it’s not a ‘real’ news site, but it makes a valid point, in a humorous way, that a big, fat, blustering, clueless buffoon in a glasshouse shouldn’t throw stones. It’s called ‘satire’.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 02:48 AM

A small step in the right direction Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

Good to see that you're one of the huffers and puffers, true to form I'd say, who I referred to in my post on the Black Lives thread, Nigel. If they stick the thing in a museum, hopefully with a full explanation of the man's horrid part in the slave trade, I hope they leave the graffiti on it. For the record, I'm fully with Pete and the Bristol protesters on this.

The Liverpool museum seemed to me to be a frank confronting by the city of the most shameful episode in its past, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

"I see it as vandalism"
And I see it as a long-overdue recognition of a truly evil past
THese statues weren't put up for dogs to piss upon, though it might have been a good use for them
I went home to Liverpool after a longish gap was a little bemused to be taken by my sisters to the docks where I had served my apprenticeship
We went to a magnificent Slavery Museum built on the spot where the bidding had once taken place - I new it as a storage shed for the unloaded ships
I didn't feel that to be vandalisation
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM

re that statue going down. i thought it was great - just as a visible, symbolic sign of legitimate protest. very seldom do we get to witness something that's positive for people - a cheering wee victory! (i'm reminded of the heartwarming story of margaret thatcher and a cricket bat) if we call this a crime - how does it compare to the crimes of the slave owners who never lived to stand trial or face the consequences of their actions - and got a statue? obviously.

apparently, the statue will be placed in a museum and a history written of the guy's significance to Bristol and to black history. The mayor also explained that dumping the statue in the river is now part of colston's and Bristol's history - so for once the story is not written by and for rich and powerful white men.

juat a wee revolutionary moment - everyone learns and everyone wins!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM

No, Nigel, that did not escape me, and I fully agree that the inclusiveness is a sign of hope.

But I am talking about how it will be presented if we have a second wave. I could, of course, be entirely wrong - it has been known! - but we will have to wait and see. All I can go on so far is the commentary I have seen elsewhere 'below the line' on press articles and similar, and that makes me suspect those who are black may well be blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM

Several aitcles and photos this morning of the slave-owner's statue being daubed with paint and thrown into Bristol Harbour - by white and black protesters - makes the heart skip
Jim
It might make your heart skip. I see it as vandalism perpetrated under the cover of supposedly peaceful protest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:45 AM

"a good percentage of those protesting were 'white'."
One of the most hopeful aspects of this - that won't stop bumwipes like the Daily Heil making it a black thingy - when has it ever ?
Several aitcles and photos this morning of the slave-owner's statue being daubed with paint and thrown into Bristol Harbour - by white and black protesters - makes the heart skip
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM

I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before. If there is a second wave, we will conveniently forget the crowded beaches of Bournemouth, Durdle Door and the rest. It will all be blamed "on these blacks meeting in large crowds at the height of the virus."

A comment which cheerfully ignores the fact that a good percentage of those protesting were 'white'. Anyone looking at photos of the protests, and the BBC footage, will see that quite clearly. Of course, it may be a little obscured by the fact that all those chosen for interview on last night's (BBC) news programmes were from ethnic minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:06 AM

There's a very relevant article by Tony Benn circulating. I particularly like the final sentence of this:

Now, Wilberforce was a very interesting man. He was a Conservative, he supported Pitt, he voted for the Combination Act which made it a criminal offence for more than three people to get together to call for a trade union or political reform, and then he became a Christian and he was stirred by the injustice of it and campaigned, and that’s what we’re celebrating this year, the abolition of the slave trade. And, might I add, not the abolition of slavery, don’t think that Wilberforce brought about the abolition of slavery but only the slave trade.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 02:59 AM

Priorities Mac - if this surge in opposition is put on the long finger, that's where it will remain - the urgent issue that spiked an already simmering problem by being used for Brexit will continue to escalate if the ball is dropped now
It is sickening to here the pratings of comfortably well-off Asians like Mad Maggie Patel telin people these demonstrations are not safe, then switching over to hear another government or business spokesmen urging to "take the risk, ignore the advice of the experts, send the kids back to school and clamber onto the crammed buses and tubes and go back to work for the sake of Britain's future
I hard a new (to me) word yesterday, from a business spokesman - "It's time we started to ignore the advice of these MEDOCRATS"
These heartening demonstrations are putting the heart that was torn out of Britain by shites like Farage, back into Britain - it should be encoraged to keep beating
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM

Just doing a few 'back of the envelope' calculations, here.

Matt Hancock said last week and also today on the Andrew Marr Show, that there is around 1 person in a 1000 infected at the moment. If that is true, and it is also true that there were 'tens of thousands' in the marches, it is reasonable to assume a few tens of people infected in the march. There are problems with that assumption, because it assumes a uniform spread of infections, but it will do as a starting point.

A protest is an unusual situation, because of close contact with a lot of people you don't know for a long time, but it is also outside. The R rate will not be the 1-ish of the lockdown, nor will it be 3 to 4 of 'normal circumstances': I would guess it may be several times higher - 10 or more.

So we have a rough guess that this might cause say 300 additional infections initially. If they have an R of around 1 when they get home, this is no worse than the infection rate around the end of May. (June 5th reported as 1557 per day, 2095 on May 29th)

So not negligible by any means, but it should be manageable. More of an unknown is how this is altered because we are relaxing other restrictions at the same time. Of the two, I would expect the relaxations to be more significant simply because we are talking of around 70 million people rather than a few tens of thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 05:48 AM

"You and I know that the racists would love to put all the blame for a second wave on these protestors,"D' YOU RECKON ?
They'd get away with that one, wouldn't they ?
I don't think
I suggest you read the predictions by the Yanks that these demos will peter out without having achieved anything
I think they are bigger than that
Bring 'em on, I say
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:44 AM

That's what I said "I would like to say I had a neat answer to the dilemma of whether to take part in a justified protest like this or not given the virus, but I don't", Jim. You and I know that the racists would love to put all the blame for a second wave on these protestors, and I have no doubt they will do everything they can to do that. I can see that making racism worse.

That is not to say the protests should not happen. The causes are just as valid as they would be if there was no virus. But given we know governments are very practiced at completely ignoring demonstrations, maybe we need to think long and hard about the best way to do it. Which is why I suggested one possibility could be a funeral march of thousands, long, slow, silent and socially distanced. I don't know how you organise that. But I think it could be more impactful than a "standard" protest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 03:22 AM

"I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before."
That is the excuse Priti Patel gave for not supporting the march
Anything we do now is a risk - London tube trains appear to be back to their 'cattle truck' status, schools are returning shortly, despite the fact it has been admitted that it is impossible to get children to 'social distance', workers who are unable to work at home have to go back to their workplace are risking their jobs if they refuse to go into work...
The world is, for the first time, on it's feet demanding rights for Blacks and the end to institutional murder
Trump and his puppets are hoping this "terrorism on the streets" will blow over and are using the pandemic to blunt its obviously growing effect (it wouldn't surprise me if Don the Dick hadn't 'found God' for a little divine backup
Going for the newspaper if a risk at present - as far as I'm concerned, some risks are worth taking - I wouldn't be without my daily Codeword and I wouldn't ak people to do without their rights
INTERESTING SNIPPET
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM

I can't help worrying that the Black Lives Matter protests will have made things even worse for those who are black than before. If there is a second wave, we will conveniently forget the crowded beaches of Bournemouth, Durdle Door and the rest. It will all be blamed "on these blacks meeting in large crowds at the height of the virus." And we the government 'warned them not to because of the risk of spreading the virus.' It looks to me like this is getting the government off a very nasty hook and putting the blame for a second wave with thousands of deaths on 'the blacks'. Which will hardly help resolve institutionalised racism.

I would like to say I had a neat answer to the dilemma of whether to take part in a justified protest like this or not given the virus, but I don't. The only sorts of thing I can think of are very unconventional, like a totally silent slow march with everyone two or three metres apart, but how you organise and manage that I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

AN ATERTHOUGHT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:27 PM

Lip service by both - especially by Patel
Expressing regret is like the automatic condolences meted out by people who neither knew nor cared about the deceased
THese are representative of the British peeople, Johnson has a track record fro the racism that is being protested about and Patel orders the people not to be part of the world protest because of Covid
Both - both of these hypocritical bastards have fought tooth and nail to protect the prickeen who flouted his own ******
rules on Covid
You can have my apology Nigel - if you don't mind waiting till Hell freezes over
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:38 PM

Nigel - Personally, I'm more inclined to believe Jim states what he actually honestly believes,
than any weaselly platitudes from boris and patel...