BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:24 AM

Except we are supposed to believe one of the most powerful,
vitally important men in our nation,
could not have phoned his employer's office,
or any of his family's network of elite London social circle,
to arrange emergency professional child care while his family stayed at home in London...!!!?????

The correct word for this is.. bollocks...!!!!!!!!!!

How thick does this govt think we all are...????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:13 AM

No, I don't buy it either. According to the latest figures there as 274,762 cases. I reckon there must be at least one thousand people in that lot who are a couple with a child of a similar age.

Why did few of those not do the same as Cummings, as far as we can tell? (There is no evidence from police reports, for example, that they did, and the reports of emails that MPs received seems confirm that.)

Anecdotally, the people who were in that position that I know arranged local food deliveries and so on from help groups. I have several relatives who do those deliveries in their local area.

For me, it is not enough to say why Cummings did that. You also need to address why so many people in the same position did not. In some cases, it is reported that they were explicitly told by NHS 111 they could not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:01 AM

Sorry Nigel, I am not buying that.
That's ok. I'm not selling anything.

Cummings put a young child in a car, a very confined space, with a known sufferer for several hours.
Rather than staying at home with that same sufferer.

He travelled 260 miles to his parents house. Now I am guessing as he is aged 48 that his parents will at least be in their late 60's or early to mid 70's. That is they are people classed as being vulnerable.
Not to stay 'with' his parents, and the intended carers for his child (as mentioned by Steve) were young nieces.

So not only did he put his child in jeopardy he also put his parents in jeopardy.
Only if they (any of them) were making close contact with those elderly parents.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 09:46 AM

Sorry Nigel, I am not buying that.

Cummings put a young child in a car, a very confined space, with a known sufferer for several hours.

He travelled 260 miles to his parents house. Now I am guessing as he is aged 48 that his parents will at least be in their late 60's or early to mid 70's. That is they are people classed as being vulnerable.

So not only did he put his child in jeopardy he also put his parents in jeopardy.

No if's, no but's, no maybe's.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 09:01 AM

A lie to far?

I do hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:54 AM

Cummings has two young nieces up north (17 and 20) who both showed willing to look after the child if the need had arisen. As I see it, it would have been within the guidelines to move them to London (travel is allowed to help a vulnerable person...). That way, at least no infected persons would have been swanning half way across Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:47 AM

The whole subject of Cummings is distracting too much from the actions needed to deal with the virus.

Maybe "Ooh, look Cummings" is getting to be the equivalent of "Ooh look, Labour antisemitism".

True, but it would be easily solved if Cummings was no longer in post. In fact, it is keeping him in post as long as they have that have caused so many difficulties.

"If it were done, when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly" if memory serves.

As it is, if Cummings left today the first question to, for example, Grant Shapps would be "Well, do you still think his behaviour was right?" They have tarnished many members of the cabinet with this determination to defend him. Johnson less than many others, as it happens, because he has usually put a sneaky caveat on his support if you look closely enough.

I accept it is a really uncomfortable position for the Government, but being uncomfortable is hardly enough justification to let it drop. After all, we learnt on Friday that Johnson rarely reads the scientific papers produced by SAGE, relying on summaries produced, we assume, by the observers from the Government ... oh, look, Cummings again!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:38 AM

Sorry Nigel driving 260 miles does not protect the child.
Driving 260 miles leaves the child in very close proximity for several hours to the woman who is suffering from the virus.
A much more sensible approach would be to place the sufferer in one bedroom and instruct the child not to go into that room.
Now guess which is more likely to the child contracting the virus.

So far, so sensible. But if Cummings is also going down with it, who will look after the child (with no contact). He had family in Durham who would do this, and drove while he could. I still understand his actions in going to Durham. If he'd stopped there, there may not have been so many complaints.

The whole subject of Cummings is distracting too much from the actions needed to deal with the virus.

Maybe "Ooh, look Cummings" is getting to be the equivalent of "Ooh look, Labour antisemitism".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM

" in fact I’d celebrate"
Me too if the situation were different
The country ids in chaos of this verus with a Govenment - I hate to thin what would happen if big business or populism took the reins
This lot have to be forced to do the right thing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:01 AM

He knows that, Raggy, but Tory supporters will defend the indefensible until their last breath. It’s down to the constant feeding of their prejudices that Tory propaganda subjects them to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 07:32 AM

Posted before checking the last line should have read:

"Now guess which is more likely to result in the child contracting the virus"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 07:30 AM

Sorry Nigel driving 260 miles does not protect the child.

Driving 260 miles leaves the child in very close proximity for several hours to the woman who is suffering from the virus.

A much more sensible approach would be to place the sufferer in one bedroom and instruct the child not to go into that room.

Now guess which is more likely to the child contracting the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 06:04 AM

”A fine mess he's got you Tories in“

Not just ‘you Tories’ Jim - I wouldn’t give a FF if it was only Tories who had been dropped in the proverbial by Dom & Dumber, in fact I’d celebrate. But the fact is that they’ve dropped everyone in a pile of steaming ordure, because they are interested only in one thing - the Tories’ God, money. And their every move has been designed to protect the money at the cost of human lives.

It’s exactly what you get when you vote on the basis of an individual ‘personality politician’, and a couple of three-word slogans.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 05:09 AM

"That is why I agree that he should be gone."
A little more than that Nigel
Your leader needs to answer why he was ever defended after making what was more than an error
Your party is slipping down the charts rapidly - no harm in that - but public confidence in how this whole affair has been thrown into utter confusion by this and far more us-and-them farcical approaches to this pandemic
More than Cummings have to go now - or at lest, justify their actions
A fine mess he's got you Tories in Nigel
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 04:44 AM

Where does diving thirty miles to "test my eyes" fit into all this ?
That is why I agree that he should be gone.

Driving 260 miles to protect your child I fully understand, and , were I in a similar position, I might copy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:22 PM

Cummings was instrumental in arriving at those restrictions - Johnson's risking his Party's future indicates that he is unable to envisage a future without Cummings's guidance
If a major architect of these guidlines doesn't understand them how on earth can anyone expect the public, with all the contradictory policies that have been put forward and withdrawn, be expected to
This in another excuse Nigel
Where does diving thirty miles to "test my eyes" fit into all this ?
Utter nonsense

Over thirty major cities in the US are now experiencing violent civil disorder after the murder of a black citizen
The U.S. like all countries, is facing massive economic problems once things 'normalise'
America is on of the major alternative trading nations to Europe when Brexit is finalised - is it the future 'safe pair of trading hands' Britain needs to "stand on her own two feet"?
If not - who ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:17 PM

DtG - you might find out in the video I just suggested to Nigel..

Correct selection of precise words can make all the difference.

We can take the P out of "pedantry" [mudcat pedants - no not literally - "edantry"..???],

but some privileged elite folks make a lucrative career out of it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 20 - 02:20 PM

Just smoke and mirrors to divert us from the real issue then, Nigel. Even though you agree we are right. Like saying "yes, sticking a hot poker up someone's arse is wrong but the correct word is rectum". Come on, everyone knows he was wrong. What does it matter how it is phrased?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 02:08 PM

Nigel - if you've not already watched it,
you might enjoy a 25 min Financial Times video dissection of cumming's
"I'm innocent, Guv.." statement..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0tWyhkoP5c

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 01:56 PM

Those two 'ifs', Nigel. That he went to Durham and back is indisputable. The press reports on this are correct. As to if he was unsure he should have got advice. He is wrong either way. If he was sure he should not have gone. If wasn't sure and had got medical advice they would have told him not to go.

The first 'If' was about the accuracy of the press reports (plural), not whether he went to Durham, which was not denied. There were multiple press reports. Not all were substantiated.
As to advice, the comment was about what he should have done if he was unsure. By his own description, he knew what the restrictions were, and believed he was covered by them. In that case, he was not unsure, and no further reference to a 'higher authority' was required.
The response to Raggytash's email is carefully worded. It is a shame others aren't worded so carefully.

And, before anyone asks, I also think Cummings should have gone by now, either by his own decision, or by Boris'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 01:12 PM

"he’s a Tory - aren’t ‘decency’ and ‘Tory’ an oxymoron?"

Definitely seems increasingly that way since dom/boris [Doris..???]
kicked out the softer centred tory wets......!!!


BWM - tories habitually resort to 'common sense' for various dodgy reasons..

It's the rest of us who conduct ourselves with 'common decency'...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 11:03 AM

The "test test" rubbish should have been enough to kick him out on his ares on two counts - on breaking his party' own guidelines and on driving that didtance whe n his eyes were playing up
If there was a lw about treating the British people with contempt, he be banged up in the Tower of London years ago with Johnson as a cellmate
There are now more unhappy Tory MPs over this matter than there were at the time of Johnson's Brexit 'Night of the Long Knives'
Some comfort, I suppose
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 May 20 - 09:16 AM

Caesar's handler, too, should be above reproach?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 20 - 08:58 AM

Even if anyone can cast doubt that what he did was wrong he should still have the decency to resign.

Errrrmm, he’s a Tory - aren’t ‘decency’ and ‘Tory’ an oxymoron?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:14 AM

Those two 'ifs', Nigel. That he went to Durham and back is indisputable. The press reports on this are correct. As to if he was unsure he should have got advice. He is wrong either way. If he was sure he should not have gone. If wasn't sure and had got medical advice they would have told him not to go. The only thing that rings vaguely true in his cover up is that he has no friends to rely on. But even then he has enough money to pay for care.

Even if anyone can cast doubt that what he did was wrong he should still have the decency to resign. That is what both Neil Ferguson and Catherine Calderwood did.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:12 AM

"toes the party line "
Don't know i anybody's been watching arch-Thatcherite Michael Portillo's stunning exposé of Britain's ruthless exploitation of the Colonial Empire, especially the Indian sub-continent
Don't think I've ever seen such a trip along The Road to Damascus - already got the "Outraged from the Atheneum" keyboards catching fire
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Nigel, I made a mistake when I typed PM I should have typed MP.

I should have also have stated that he is a conservative who normally toes the party line so for him to reply "I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post" was quite startling.

Well done him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 20 - 06:35 AM

Maybe I am coming down with something - I feel the need to defend the government on some things....

Well, not really. More that I think if you accuse them too wildly of things, they are easily denied and you look untrustworthy yourself. So it is a good idea not to get too hyperventilated.

"The government knowingly and deliberately de-prepared the UK, even as the pandemic began to bite."

That seems to me a bit of a misrepresentation. It sounds almost as if the objective was to make the UK less prepared. It is much more accurate, I would guess, to say the value of preparation was unrecognised and undervalued. Reducing stockpiles 'saves money' in the grand scheme of things. That is makes you less resilient was not treated with enough seriousness, but it should not presented and a deliberate decision to increase risk, in my opinion.


Mary Bousted, Joint General Secretary of the National Education Union said "The government's plans on reopening schools since they were first produced on 12 May have been changed 41 times, and that's because they constantly had to be revised as things they'd forgotten, things they didn't know, things they got wrong, have been added in."

I think that very much depends on what the changes were and if they were highlighted. Imagine an overall document on school management that says within it there will be appendices issued over the next week covering these 10 specific areas where special considerations apply, followed by a list including things like science laboratories, contact sports, changing rooms and so on. I would not personally consider the appearance of those anticipated appendices changes. On the other hand, if the same appendices appeared with no form of warning they were planned, it does look very much as if they have only arisen because after release of the documents someone said "What about science labs?"

Ok, got that off my chest. Normal opinions will resume shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Raggy:
Did you mean to say I emailed my PM earlier today or was 'PM' a typo for 'MP'.
I ask because ABCD appears to think that the reply you quoted was from Boris.

The response you quoted was not as clear cut as it appears.
"If press reports are correct, Dominic Cummings has fallen short of the standards we expect of every individual, never mind a person who should be setting an example. If he was unsure what the rules were then he could have got advice from medical experts and those in charge of the programme at the very highest level. At the very least he could have made it publicly clear what he intended to do ahead of travelling north.
I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post."

The two 'if's give your MP as much wriggle room as members of HIGNFY adding "allegedly" to some sentences.
As for suggesting that he should have made his travel plans public. Apart from Royalty, no-one does that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:16 AM

A scathing piece by George Monbiot, detailing the behaviour of The Johnson Gang in the conscious, deliberate ‘de-preparing’ the UK for the Covid-19 pandemic, and the reasons for it - and, as always with the Tory ideologues, it’s about the money...always about their god, money.

https://www.monbiot.com/2020/05/26/the-machine-stops/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:49 PM

BWM - I obviously agree with you.. [errmmm.. Corbyn - who he...???]

But what I posted about Corbyn is near verbatim [ok a little poetic license..],
still being whatabouted to defend the indefensible
on other social media...

..they're that thick...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:38 PM

But... but... that's far too clear and concise for the gentleman in question. And not a mention of "cracking-on", "following the science", or even a Latin "tag" so familiar it can be found in any medium-sized Dictionary. I regret to say someone must be impersonating the bold Boris, Raggytash. Fair play to you for writing directly to The PM, though. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:25 PM

I emailed my PM earlier today to express my considerable anger at the action of Dominic Cummings. I received a reply this evening that surprised me for two reason. One that the reply was so quick and secondly the reply itself. I have to congratulate my PM for being so candid and forthcoming. The salient part of his reply is below.

"If press reports are correct, Dominic Cummings has fallen short of the standards we expect of every individual, never mind a person who should be setting an example. If he was unsure what the rules were then he could have got advice from medical experts and those in charge of the programme at the very highest level. At the very least he could have made it publicly clear what he intended to do ahead of travelling north.

I agree with you that his position is untenable and he should be relieved of his post."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:17 PM

I see a possible row with Van-Tam, now that he said in today's press conference:

“In my opinion the rules are clear and have always been clear. In my opinion they are for the benefit of all and they apply to all.”

If the government are stupid, they will say: we agree - the rules are clear and Cummings was within them. That will then lead to Van-Tam being asked for more clarification next time he is on (if ever!) and the story keeps going.

I thought the story could have died, but it is now live enough for Keir to raise it at the next PMQ without looking like he is flogging the famous dead horse.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:11 PM

Pfr, Corbyn is yesterday’s man as far as the Whataboutery-Brigade are concerned. Nowadays they’re after Sir Keir Starmer, with claims that he ‘protected the grooming-gangs’. All complete nonsense of course, but any port in a storm...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 02:23 PM

yebbut.. Corbyn broke the lockdown...!!!

why don't the mainstream media go after him
like the way they're cruelly persecuting poor responsible justifiable dom cummings...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:49 PM

That's my line BWM :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:17 PM

Yebbut, yebbut, yebbut...look over there - Labour antisemitism! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:12 PM

The chief medical officer has just stated that it is fat too dangerous to proceed in this way - he also quietly slated Cummings, especially for his 30m 'Test my eyesight" journey
What a shower
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 12:35 PM

Well. the south west where I live is now suffering direct consequences of the far too premature relaxing of travel restrictions..

boris is scared of losing popularity with the undisciplined unruly 'chavs' and cretins who put him in power,
and are now becoming restless to get pissed, party, f@ck, and fight
at our local seaside and rural beauty spots...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 08:21 AM

Four leading health experts have spoken out at the Government's plans for easing lockdown describing it an unresearched 'leap in the dark'
One pointed out that any plans that any plans to relax lockdown has too be approached regionally as situations differ enormously in different parts of Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:07 PM

I'm tempted to see a connection with "conjectural restorations" of missing or corrupt lines in some old songs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:49 PM

Yep. My spill chucked ducked it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 May 20 - 09:24 AM

Perhaps, at 2-50AM, the words were intended to be, "if the Daily Heil is 'gunning' for him..."? Seems consistent, but of course D the G may confirm.
Curse you, "Autocorrect"!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:12 AM

I think he was too - not so rare with him - he supports the Tory Party - doesn't get more whimsical tan that :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:12 AM

I think Nigel was havin’ a larrff, Jim! A rare bit of lighthearted Nigel whimsy - very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:57 AM

the smart political move for cummings wouldbe to apologise resign and quietly return in nine months time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:43 AM

""Well, that's the Cummingses and Johnsons sorted then ;)"
Do you honestly think so Nigel
It was a coincidence that the announcement came on yet another day of him and his Party sinking deeper into the Klarts over the Cummings "get out of jail free" fiasco of course
After all, what's risking a few thousand lives next to losing your own personal unelected gofer
Are you really happy with all this Nigel - you surprise me ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 20 - 05:32 AM

Front page headline from The Times:
"PM eases lockdown for friends and family"

Well, that's the Cummingses and Johnsons sorted then ;)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:35 AM

"If the Daily Heil are running for him, he must have done something right :-)"
Oddlly enough, the arch-Tory Murdoch bumwipe, 'The Times' seem happy for their cartoonist to use him as a punchbag - I haven't seen such ridicule-filled cartoons since the halcyon days of Jeremy Corbyin - when Labour had a leader worthy of its name
Jim