BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:03 PM

From the protocol on Northern Ireland:

We are mindful that Irish and other EU leaders repeatedly
emphasised in the context of a ‘no deal’ scenario in 2019 that compliance with Single Market and Customs Union acquis for goods did not require any physical infrastructure at the land border. Logically that must also be the case in the context of the agreed solution constituted by the Withdrawal Agreement.

Only if you have no understanding of logic or English. Saying you do not require an infrastructure in one place says nothing at all about whether you think it would be needed in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:13 PM

It was great watching Johnson squirming on PMQs, having to say that the government would continue to applaud the NHS and other key workers on Thursday nights but, in the next breath, saying that the surcharge levied on foreign NHS workers in order for them to themselves obtain NHS treatment would remain in force.

You couldn’t make those Tory A-holes up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:05 PM

It’s pretty clear that The Johnson Gang are using the Covid-19 crisis as cover for them driving the UK over the cliff-edge of a No-EU-Trade-Deal Brexit by the end of the year, and using Covid-19 as an excuse. Probably one of the reasons they didn’t rush about in the early days of the virus trying to minimise its effect in the UK.

Standard Tory Distraction Technique. Makes a change from “Look over there - Labour Antisemitism!” I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:40 AM

Away from the pandemic I see that government ministers are now reneging on the promises about customs checks and northern Ireland.

Why does this not surprise me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:55 AM

Aa-a-a-and.... John Crace - predictably - nails it yet again!

I could almost feel sorry for Hancock....if he wasn’t usually such a cocky, smart-arsed, lying little twat. As things are, he looks set to become the sacrificial lamb on the altar of Johnsonism. He deserves nothing better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:15 AM

Great cartoon in The Times this morning
Ist picture shows Johnson holding up sign saying "targets are necessary
The next one shows his back with a target pinned to it reading "Covit Enquiry"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:14 AM

Link to that article for anyone struggling to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:06 AM

Good piece in the Guardian about how reopening infant schools might look on June 1:

Distanced drop-offs and protective bubbles: England's new school rules

The school featured is no longer scheduled to reopen to reception infants as it's in Calderdale, which has advised schools to stay as they are. And you might just detect a family connection!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:29 AM

One thing I think is quite likely to come out of this is for EU to agree a standardised way of recording deaths etc that will make it much easier to compare countries when something like this happens in the future.

The UK will go its own way, of course, on principle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:55 AM

And with now around 60,000 deaths, getting up towards the toll on the Somme, I do not know how Whitty, Vallance and Harries can live with themselves, and not issue an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:54 AM

Angela McLean said what the scientific advice was on reopening. As she should and they all should. Science is open and we pay them after all. Scientists should say what the scientific and public health advice is. If government want to do something different which results in more deaths, they should say so and justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:46 AM

I am sure that is right, DtG. As I am sure I said before, 'the best scientific advice' when unconstrained may well be different to the best when constrained in various ways. That is why I think Professor Whitty et al did themselves no favours at all by being too political. They needed to be clear at all times exactly what question they were answering and what the constraints were.

It has taken some time to sink in, but some of the scientists are now starting to do that. Last night's press conference was a good example. Mid you, it is quite enlightening to see the comments people make on Facebook as the conference processed. There are plenty of our-government-can=never-be-wrong comments, and there was a lot of chatter about how rude Angela McLean was being. I did not see it myself, unless by 'rude' you mean not letting some of George Eustance's spin pass without clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:27 AM

I think 'best scientific advice' was probably a euphemism for 'how can we do testing with no test kits' Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:30 PM

Quite interesting in today press conference that the scientists (and under pressure the minister) have said that the decision to stop the testing on March the 12 was only the advice given the shortage of tests. That is somewhat different to Professor Whitty and the ministers claim at the time that that was the best scientific advice (without qualification.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:17 PM

.. and Coffey reaffirms how ruthless tories are in turning on and blaming others for their own mistakes..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:13 PM

Nearly 40 years ago on my degree we were studying how selective tory politicians are,
in basing decisions on the chosen scientists who can be used to justify tory ideological agenda...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM

There is also the fact that the UK has fared far worse than many other countries. All governments should follow the advice of their experts but it seems that some interpret that advice according to political or economic conditions while others do it to protect lives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:08 AM

Maybe it begins, or maybe I have missed other instances:


Scientists are to blame if the government blundered in its response to the coronavirus pandemic, a cabinet minister says.

Thérèse Coffey responded to growing criticism of strategy over testing and the lockdown by acknowledging “wrong” decisions might have been made – but arguing ministers had only followed the experts.

“If the science was wrong, advice at the time was wrong, I'm not surprised if people will then think we then made a wrong decision,” the work and pensions secretary said.


So, no. No one assumes the science to be perfect, but your role as ministers involved challenging it -   how certain is this? What are the alternative possibilities - as well as blending it with other priorities, like financial aspects and politics and humanity. The optimal purely scientific path may well involve approaches that are incompatible with, say, human rights legislation. That will happen because they deal with different aspects of life. It is your job as minister to sort all that out.

Apparently a spokesman for Boris distanced the government from that view:

Boris Johnson's spokesman distanced him from Ms Coffey's comments, saying: “Scientists provide advice to the government, ministers ultimately decide. That’s how government works”

That is correct. Whether they will stick to it when the time comes for an investigation is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:12 AM

if i was performing like that in my job i would be disciplined and asked if it was really the job for me......i think, given the opportunity, he would jack it in tomomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:57 AM

Interesting thought

Boris may be out by Christmas ,

I don't think I would put any money on it and would worry about the replacement but there is some sound reasoning there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM

You need to persuade whoever's in charge that it's the way you treat them Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM

This sounds bloody middle class but a dishwasher saves huge amounts of grief. A house without a dishwasher is like a pub with no beer, or a Morrisons without Negroamaro. Just off to read the news.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:41 AM

"That one lasted only a year."
I've lasted much longer than that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:34 AM

We've had just three dishwashers in 33 years, and that includes the knackered old one we inherited with the house. That one lasted only a year.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:33 AM

DMcG posted 'I don't think I have ever paid more that £15 for a Christmas tree. So that is 37.5p saved per annum.'

You forgot the VAT of 7.5p, so you would be saving 45p per annum, assuming of course that the tax saving was passed on to you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:31 AM

I'm going to deliberately buy a tree I don't need just to save money. Thinking of splashing out on a padlock too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:30 AM

I half expect someone to point out that the 2.5% on Christmas trees is almost certainly 2.5% on all timber, and for lots of industries that will be a significant amount.

Which is quite true, but misses the point that this is *political* announcement. It is decidely not about how these tariff changes are good for business, because they don't mention business. It is entirely, wholeheartedly, and specifically about how you, our Brexiteer supporter, are going to be better off. We promised leaving the EU would cut your taxes, and here we are: we have kept to our promise.

As it happens, our dishwasher gave up the ghost recently and we bought a fairly expensive one because it came with a longer guarantee than the cheaper models. That had £14 tax approximately, it seems. We would hope to make it last at least 5 years - the guarantee period - so that is £3 per year. That is noise at a household budget level.

In the scheme of things, almost all of these are trivial. How much yeast does a typical household buy per year? Not many will buy enough to build up £1 of tax over the year, I would guess.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:24 AM

I have a B&Q artificial tree which cost me about £15 - including the decorations and lights - about seventeen years ago. It lives in my loft, lights and baubles still on it, and with a big plastic bag over it to keep it clean. Every year, one week before Christmas, we carry it down from the loft to the living room,take the bag off, plug it in and switch on, and there ya go! On 1st JanUary, we unplug it, put the bag over it and carry it back up to the loft until next 18th December.

The reduction in the tariff on Christmas trees won’t benefit me one single penny.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:15 AM

I don't think I have ever paid more that £15 for a Christmas tree. So that is 37.5p saved per annum.

I expect every tax change of 37.5p per annum to be highlighted from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:54 AM

And that assumes, of course, that the effect of these tariff reductions is passed on by the middle-men to the retailers, and by the retailers to the consumers - an assumption which may well fall into the ‘rash’ category.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:38 AM

"he DIT said the new regime would get rid of some of the complexities of the EU system, would involve rounding down tariffs and would get rid of all tariffs under 2%.

It provided a list of goods that consumers would see come down in price as a result of zero tariffs: These included:

dishwashers (down from 2.7%);
freezers (down from 2.5%);
sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%);
paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%);
mirrors (down from 4%);
scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%);
padlocks (down from 2.7%);
cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%); and
Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)."


Who said this government doesn't do detail? Presumably the civil service has been worrying for months about padlocks. And we all know our biggest expense at Christmas is the tree.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:04 PM

"It's since Blair that teacher's workload has increased beyond reasonable demands"

You are absolutely not wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 20 - 12:39 PM

"pfr, my wife has had a company phone and laptop for years. She uses them for work only! and when she gets home around 6:30pm, they are switched off."

That's the problem.. she can only switch the laptop off after finishing obligatory extra after school hours work at home...

We usually can't have our evening meal until at least 8.30..

Her colleagues are in the same desperate situation,
so that's why the late evening stressed-out work related phone calls begin
after they all actually finish work for the night...

But then the laptop usually needs to be switched back on again
just before bedtime,
as a result of problems inflicted from the phone calls...

It's since Blair that teacher's workload has increased beyond reasonable demands,
whilst the austerity value of their salary has decreased to unlivable levels..

That's why I've enough of my own real justified resentments about the state of the education system,
to tolerate any glib provocative tory attacks on 'workshy' teacher's and their 'militant unpatriotic' unions...


BWM - Btw.. it'd take a mightier man than me or you,
to demand my mrs ever turns her phone off...!!!

The only concession I won, was last year she agreed to stop taking it to bed at night...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 10:55 AM

"been finally shamed and embarrassed into silence?"
Yup - but not by the Government - and like Arnie he'll "be back"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 10:19 AM

The news is bush telegraph only, Pete. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. But most of all, read no evil. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 May 20 - 09:40 AM

have i missed some news about a regular poster on threads like this? or have regular government supporters been finally shamed and embarrassed into silence?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 07:28 AM

Bloody hell Steve, I was only having a bit of fun! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 06:40 AM

We're both well out of the profession now but we still both know enough teachers to see what pfr is saying. A healthy work-life balance has disappeared. You get to school extremely early, you leave late and your evening has gone as you still have hours of work to do. You spend most of the school "holidays" working your socks off, marking work, preparing schemes and drawing up detailed lesson plans, including the preparation of materials. Marking children's work now has to be done in ridiculous detail. All this drains away much of the energy that teachers should be reserving for putting in a lively and enthusiastic classroom "performance." It started to go seriously downhill in the mid-80s when Thatcher took revenge on teachers for taking (very limited) industrial action. There commenced a pointless and arbitrary tick-box method of "assessing" pupils' progress which was and, to an extent still is, even in its modern manifestation, open to cheating and corruption in order to get your school up the league table. There was the imposition of a content-stuffed anti-educational "national curriculum" (fit for the proles but not for the privileged in taxpayer-subsidised private schools and which left no room for imagination or interesting diversions, the sort of thing we remember our best teachers for), a five-day theft of holidays ostensibly for in-service training that I never saw utilised effectively, the removal of professional choices, replaced by the notorious 1265 hours' "directed time", and an Ofsted regime (judgemental only, never supportive) that was initially populated by significant numbers of failed teachers who had had two to three days' training (the first Ofsted inspector I had to endure, a portly, elderly man, fell asleep at the back of my lab after he'd had a night on the beer in a Bude Hotel that I know well...)

Of course, this is is a general phenomenon, not by a long chalk unique to teaching. Thatcher prepared the way for this exploitation in the workplace by emasculating trade unions (later connived in by New Labour, which proved that they weren't actually "Labour" at all). The teaching unions, never especially strong, as getting teachers to all act together is about as easy as herding cats, were too weak to put up any sort of effective opposition to these mostly deleterious changes. The upshot is that teaching is an impossibly difficult and often unrewarding job that probably (subjective view only, the only one possible) has not yielded higher "standards." If teachers are sitting around in what little spare time they have talking about teaching, it's hardly surprising, though you wonder why they aren't asleep instead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:51 AM

BTW, my post of 03:34 AM was for Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:38 AM

pfr, my wife has had a company phone and laptop for years. She uses them for work only! and when she gets home around 6:30pm, they are switched off.

Saves a lot of hassle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:34 AM

You’re very unusual then! I have a number of friends who are teachers and ex-teachers, and their sole topic of conversation is school. The non-teacher husband of one of them (and a teacher with a non-teacher husband is a rarity in itself!) refuses to go to any social function where other teachers will be in attendance, because they talk about nothing but school all night and he’s left twiddling his thumbs!

I remember sitting in the garden of the National Trust Café at Corfe Castle a few years ago, drinking coffee and eating scones (very nice indeed!) and we knew the occupations of everyone else in the garden - they were all talking, very loudly, about their dreadful schools and idiot head-teachers! ;-)

It would be a very cold day in hell before I’d marry another accountant! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:27 AM

Me and the wife used to have a really varied social life,
pubs and live music most evenings..

Until about 15 years ago when the school issued teachers with laptops,
expecting them to do increasingly more work at home..
for [in tory austerity real terms..] less and less pay.

Soon after the laptop, she got her first mobile phone,
then work-related texts and phone calls became the norm every evening,
often up until 10 or 11;
depending on how many of her co-teachers and staff were suffering work issues & stress,
and needing to offload out of school on my over-sympathetic mrs..

Healthy work life balance...???
anyone remember.. did that used to be a thing way back in the 20th century...????????

So from my point of view, I am married to an entire bloody school, not just my wife..

It's a full time lifestyle for me..

..and I get the bonus of her taking out all of that accumulating stress on on me,
and every illness she brings back from school...

So any tories wanting to pick an ideological fight with teachers,
will have to deal with me as well..
.. and I'm not such a sympathetic listener...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:48 AM

It's a bit like that at teacher training college and for your first two or three years, but after that we tend to avoid all non-essential school talk like the plague!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:38 AM

”Steve (ex-teacher, husband of teacher, sister of headteacher and ex-president of NAHT, brother of deputy head teacher, brother-in-law of teacher, friend of many teachers). “

Jeez, Steve, what on Earth do you guys talk about? I’ll bet there are some riveting conversations when you all get together - “School, school, school, school, school, school....” ad nauseam! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:20 PM

I'm her brother, not her sister. I know we live in flexible times but I have yet to go down that avenue!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:16 PM

What teachers are for: to enthuse children to learn, to nurture and develop that enthusiasm and to provide the wherewithal so to do.

What teachers are not for: to keep children off the street, to keep them away from abusive households, to keep them away from parents who go to work, to babysit.*

Cheers

Steve (ex-teacher, husband of teacher, sister of headteacher and ex-president of NAHT, brother of deputy head teacher, brother-in-law of teacher, friend of many teachers).

*If I'm wrong about this, there wouldn't be any school holidays, would there?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:07 PM

Well, there's always a "class war" going on, but what a pity that he of "formidable intelligence"* didn't have the chance to strut on the stage in a role more suited to his abilities. Something like defending the Great British Fish Supper from having foreign food standards imposed on it.
I sent a contribution to the Mail as suggested, and once I receive a white feather I'll stick it somewhere appropriate and whistle "Yankee Doodle". ABCD.

* That was the formula usually recited by Tory spokespeople some years back.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:46 PM

”what.. me spreading fake news...!!!???
..outrageous...
|It's in the mail on the internet, so it must be true...“

I tried to find it on the Mail’s internet site, and it didn’t show up. I’m not by any means suggesting you’re spreading fake news - just trying to verify it (as I always try to) and struggling...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:33 PM

...someone needs to remind Winston.. ermmm.. sorry.. boris, that this is peacetime...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:29 PM

The French politician Jean-Marie Herault de Sechelles (French Rev.) stated that in times of peril the State can take measures which would not be tolerated in peacetime.